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thedudeabides
03-04-2009, 11:16 AM
Clearly, it's very early, but the reports are starting to come in.

There's been a lot of praise for Nix's defense, and his hot start at the plate. I haven't seen him in the field much, but here's a couple of articles:
http://www.chicagotribune.com/sports/chi-04-white-sox-jayson-nix-chicmar04,0,1396104.story
http://blogs.chicagosports.chicagotribune.com/sports_hardball/white-sox-spring-training/

As expected, Beckham is getting some reps at 2b in drills:
http://www.chicagotribune.com/sports/chi-04-rogers-gordon-beckham-white-smar04,0,3746248.column

An overview from Cowley on all position battles:
http://www.suntimes.com/sports/baseball/whitesox/1458813,CST-SPT-sox04.article

LITTLE NELL
03-04-2009, 02:40 PM
I'm on the fence on who should be our second sacker.
I'm starting to think that Beckham might be ready for the bigs. If thats the case maybe TCM should stay at second and Beckham is our SS. That leaves Getz, Lillibridge and Nix to battle it out for backup infielder.
Another scenario if Getz et al really impress at 2B, put TCM in Center with BA as 4th outfielder and Beckham stays at SS.

EndemicSox
03-04-2009, 02:53 PM
Agreed Nell...Beckham isn't that far away. He probably needs a year of seasoning in AA, but the kid is extremely talented. 2B is probably his MLB position, and I can't wait for the Ramirez/Beckham era to begin!

Carolina Kenny
03-04-2009, 03:09 PM
http://wfmu.org/MACrec/images/NixonF.jpg

LITTLE NELL
03-04-2009, 03:11 PM
http://wfmu.org/MACrec/images/NixonF.jpg
Very creative, but the Mods might say its political.

kittle42
03-04-2009, 03:16 PM
Very creative, but the Mods might say its political.

I highly doubt that.

Carolina Kenny
03-04-2009, 03:21 PM
I highly doubt that.

Sorry but everytime I hear Nix's name I think of Nixon. Since he is long gone in the misty mist of time, I hope the mods cut me some slack.

doublem23
03-04-2009, 03:22 PM
Very creative, but the Mods might say its political.

Puns involving dead Presidents names is OK. :cool:

No linking to the Nixon in 2012 campaign website, though.

LITTLE NELL
03-04-2009, 03:27 PM
Back on Beckham, does 4 years of college baseball equate to a few years in the minors? If so, this kid is ready.

CWSpalehoseCWS
03-04-2009, 03:31 PM
I'm sure Beckham is somewhat ready and could play in the majors, but he hasn't even played a full season yet in the minors, which is the only thing that makes me doubtful. I still say let him play in the minors, maybe get a September callup, then have him compete next spring for the 2B job.

DumpJerry
03-04-2009, 03:34 PM
Sorry but everytime I hear Nix's name I think of Nixon. Since he is long gone in the misty mist of time, I hope the mods cut me some slack.
Just because he spent most of his career (http://www.baseball-reference.com/n/nixontr01.shtml) in Boston, there is no reason to fear bringing up Nixon.:tongue:

Daver
03-04-2009, 03:34 PM
Back on Beckham, does 4 years of college baseball equate to a few years in the minors? If so, this kid is ready.

No, it isn't even all that close, the difference in the pitching is night and day.

Sargeant79
03-04-2009, 03:48 PM
I just checked out Nix's minor league numbers...he seems like a guy who has slowly put it together as his minor league career progressed. He managed to cut down on his strikeouts and improve his BA and OBP as he advanced, which is a positive sign. I didn't realize he could steal bases either. If his defense is as good as advertised, I'd be all in favor of giving him the nod, although probably not as a leadoff hitter. A lot guys struggle in the first go-around in the majors, and maybe that was the case for him in Colorado.

As far as I'm concerned, may the guy who has the best spring win, regardless of where they would hit.

doublem23
03-04-2009, 04:13 PM
As far as I'm concerned, may the guy who has the best spring win, regardless of where they would hit.

I agree, the lineup's a mess anyways, no sense in plugging more ****ty hitters in it just because "they fit a mold."

daveeym
03-04-2009, 04:25 PM
Puns involving dead Presidents names is OK. :cool:

No linking to the Nixon in 2012 campaign website, though.
Well what if i bring this dude into it?
http://theinfosphere.org/images/thumb/f/fb/Headless_body_of_Agnew.jpg/225px-Headless_body_of_Agnew.jpg

ARrrrrrrr

EndemicSox
03-04-2009, 05:43 PM
No, it isn't even all that close, the difference in the pitching is night and day.


This is true...with that being said, some players simply have "it" and can step in right away and produce, regardless of experience. Hopefully Beckham is one of those guys...but it shouldn't be expected.

voodoochile
03-04-2009, 06:10 PM
I agree, the lineup's a mess anyways, no sense in plugging more ****ty hitters in it just because "they fit a mold."

Actually, 2-7 it's fine with 8 probably going to Fields. That only leaves leadoff and 9 open.

Sox are still going to score a bunch of runs this year. If they were solid last year with OC leading off, they just need to find someone who can put up a .335-.350 OBP and they'll pretty much be back to where they were, but with an improved stick at 3B and both TCQ and TCM having a year under their belts and a hopefully healthy full year of PK.

I don't see how that's going to be a "mess" and I think they'll score more runs than last year

Daver
03-04-2009, 06:16 PM
Sox are still going to score a bunch of runs this year.

They better, the projected starters both in the rotation and in the field tells me they are gong to give up a lot of runs.

Craig Grebeck
03-04-2009, 06:19 PM
I don't see how that's going to be a "mess" and I think they'll score more runs than last year
lol

edit: I am so tempted to make a wager on this. I don't like betting against my own team, but sweet lord this is the definition of easy money.

Corlose 15
03-04-2009, 07:14 PM
They better, the projected starters both in the rotation and in the field tells me they are gong to give up a lot of runs.

What if Lillibride wins the 2B job and leads off. Then you have a potentially pretty strong defense with Lillibridge, Ramirez and Anderson up the middle.

Also, if Contreras and Colon are both healthy the rotation isn't too shabby either.

Carolina Kenny
03-04-2009, 08:03 PM
What if Lillibride wins the 2B job and leads off. Then you have a potentially pretty strong defense with Lillibridge, Ramirez and Anderson up the middle.

Also, if Contreras and Colon are both healthy the rotation isn't too shabby either.

Forget Little Bridge. I don't think he makes the team.

Daver
03-04-2009, 08:16 PM
What if Lillibride wins the 2B job and leads off. Then you have a potentially pretty strong defense with Lillibridge, Ramirez and Anderson up the middle.

Also, if Contreras and Colon are both healthy the rotation isn't too shabby either.

And if he doesn't you possibly have Getz at second and Owens in CF, and it may constitute the worst defensive outfield ever fielded by the White Sox.

I have my doubts on both Colon and Contreas being and staying healthy enough to stay in the rotation.

mjmcend
03-04-2009, 08:31 PM
Puns involving dead Presidents names is OK. :cool:

No linking to the Nixon in 2012 campaign website, though.

People think you are kidding.

http://sergiodelmolino.blogia.com/upload/20080403002402-futurama-nixon-head.jpg

4 more years

rustysurf83
03-04-2009, 08:50 PM
No, it isn't even all that close, the difference in the pitching is night and day.

And the fact that a straight transition to 162 games is pretty drastic.

Madscout
03-04-2009, 09:11 PM
What if Lillibride wins the 2B job and leads off. Then you have a potentially pretty strong defense with Lillibridge, Ramirez and Anderson up the middle.

Also, if Contreras and Colon are both healthy the rotation isn't too shabby either.

Ozzie isn't going to give Anderson the job, period. I want him to, but he won't.
I just hope Ramirez is as good at SS as he is touted to be.

Tragg
03-04-2009, 10:26 PM
Preseason hitting stats has got to be some of the most useless information ever.
You're hitting against either 3rd rate pitchers; and if it is the top-end pitchers they don't have it cranked up yet.

JB98
03-04-2009, 11:48 PM
From what I've seen so far:

Offense:
1. Getz
2. Nix
3. Lillibridge

Defense:
1. Nix
2. Lillibridge
3. Getz

This competition will be interesting to watch as the spring continues.

FedEx227
03-05-2009, 12:40 AM
I'm rooting for Lillibridge, from what I've seen/read from both in Atlanta's system and now for us in Spring Training I like his game. I'm gunning for him, but either of the three will work for me.

LoveYourSuit
03-05-2009, 12:57 AM
While we argue about who plays 2B, I am very concerned on who backs up at SS. Betemit (SP) makes Jose Valentin look like a gold glove SS.

Can Nix play SS?

Konerko05
03-05-2009, 01:49 AM
While we argue about who plays 2B, I am very concerned on who backs up at SS. Betemit (SP) makes Jose Valentin look like a gold glove SS.

Can Nix play SS?

Well hopefully Guillen learns Betemit can not handle SS. He's been giving him a lot of innings at SS this spring. Guillen seems to be a pretty good judge of infield defense, especially SS. I'd be very surprised if the Sox open the season with Betemit as the only back up SS.

Nix has not played one inning of SS in the minors.

The Sox have toyed around with Getz at SS. I'm guessing the results weren't too great given his skill set. I'm sure he could handle SS in an emergency.

The most likely scenario is Getz and Lillibridge both making the team. Lillibridge is supposedly a pretty gifted SS. I've heard nothing but good things about his glove at SS, and 2B. His speed will also be useful off the bench.

Betemit will mostly handle back up duties at 3B and 1B.

jabrch
03-05-2009, 01:59 AM
Ozzie isn't going to give Anderson the job, period.

Nobody will get "given" anything. It is up to Anderson to earn it.

oeo
03-05-2009, 08:46 AM
I'm rooting for Lillibridge, from what I've seen/read from both in Atlanta's system and now for us in Spring Training I like his game.

High strikeouts, low walks, but fast?

I'd love to think he'd cut down on the strikeouts, but he hasn't shown that ability yet, so I don't see a reason to think he will. I would like him to be the utility guy because Betemit is a ****ing terrible shortstop.

Craig Grebeck
03-05-2009, 09:05 AM
Nobody will get "given" anything. It is up to Anderson to earn it.
And what better time than spring training!? Ah, this organization's philosophy on meaningless March at-bats really warms my heart.

Marqhead
03-05-2009, 09:06 AM
High strikeouts, low walks, but fast?

I'd love to think he'd cut down on the strikeouts, but he hasn't shown that ability yet, so I don't see a reason to think he will. I would like him to be the utility guy because Betemit is a ****ing terrible shortstop.

I only watched 2-3 innings of the game the other day, and he booted 2 balls in that time frame. I really don't want him spending much time up the middle this year.

oeo
03-05-2009, 09:13 AM
I only watched 2-3 innings of the game the other day, and he booted 2 balls in that time frame. I really don't want him spending much time up the middle this year.

Yeah, he's terrible. The inning where the Flubs scored their first two runs last night, should have been over if it were not for Betemit's terrible defense.

And what better time than spring training!? Ah, this organization's philosophy on meaningless March at-bats really warms my heart.

What else do you want them to do? Use Anderson's career numbers? He already lost in that case.

Tragg
03-05-2009, 09:50 AM
What else do you want them to do? Use Anderson's career numbers? He already lost in that case.
Sadly, compared to the career numbers of Wise and Owens, he hasn't lost already.

the only chance to avoid Wise or Owens is for Guillen to find his speedy leadoff hitter elsewhere...like 2b.

Craig Grebeck
03-05-2009, 12:37 PM
Yeah, he's terrible. The inning where the Flubs scored their first two runs last night, should have been over if it were not for Betemit's terrible defense.



What else do you want them to do? Use Anderson's career numbers? He already lost in that case.
Recognize the importance of defense perhaps?

russ99
03-05-2009, 12:45 PM
From what I've read, Lillibridge is Borchard-lite, He puts too much pressure on himself and gets down when any aspect of his game is faltering. He did pretty well yesterday, so we'll have to see how it all shakes out.

I have to wonder, do the fans pulling for Lillibridge really like him or is he just a convenient excuse to remove other CF candidates and slot Anderson into the starting lineup?

Face it, as of right now if Lillibridge won the 2B and leadoff job, Wise would be in the 9 spot. Lillibridge's performance has no bearing whatsoever on Anderson's chances. Only Anderson can make that happen.

guillensdisciple
03-05-2009, 12:49 PM
From what I've read, Lillibridge is Borchard-lite, He puts too much pressure on himself and gets down when any aspect of his game is faltering. He did pretty well yesterday, so we'll have to see how it all shakes out.

I have to wonder, do the fans pulling for Lillibridge really like him or is he just a convenient excuse to remove other CF candidates and slot Anderson into the starting lineup?

Face it, as of right now if Lillibridge won the 2B and leadoff job, Wise would be in the 9 spot. Lillibridge's performance has no bearing whatsoever on Anderson's chances. Only Anderson can make that happen.


I am a Lillibridge supporter, but that is mainly because his upside as a lead off hitter is much higher than Jerry Owens.

EndemicSox
03-05-2009, 01:23 PM
Time will tell regarding Owens ability, or lack of ability on defense. I don't think he is any worse than average. Knock on wood, watch him boot three balls on opening day now that I have said this. I have confidence that Ozzie will eventually have the best all around players in the positions they need to be in. Unfortunately, come June, I think Kenny Williams will realize that the CF of the future is probably playing in rookie ball, and the 2B of the future will be tearing up AA pitching.

LITTLE NELL
03-05-2009, 03:21 PM
I know some are not wild about Anderson but I'd like to see him get one more shot as our full time CFer. Some of us old timers remember that Jimmy Landis hit .212 his first year with the Sox in about 300 at bats yet Lopez penciled him in his 2nd year and he batted .277 and had a pretty good career as a hitter and was as good as they came as a centerfielder. This team will be better with Anderson in CF than with Wise or Owens. Lets hope one of these guys in the 2B mix can win the job, lead off and have a break-out year.

oeo
03-05-2009, 03:28 PM
Recognize the importance of defense perhaps?

For a starting position player, offensive consistency is more important than defense. If you can prove otherwise, I'd like to see.

For the record, Anderson should start in CF, but for the mere fact that he's the tallest midget and we have no one else. BTW, how the hell did another thread end up talking about Anderson? The most talked about crappy player in White Sox history.

LoveYourSuit
03-05-2009, 03:31 PM
For a starting position player, offensive consistency is more important than defense. If you can prove otherwise, I'd like to see.

For the record, Anderson should start in CF, but for the mere fact that he's the tallest midget and we have no one else. BTW, how the hell did another thread end up talking about Anderson? The most talked about crappy player in White Sox history.

I think all 3 bring very mediocre offensive consistency, therefore I would pick the guy with the best glove.

FedEx227
03-05-2009, 03:35 PM
High strikeouts, low walks, but fast?

I'd love to think he'd cut down on the strikeouts, but he hasn't shown that ability yet, so I don't see a reason to think he will. I would like him to be the utility guy because Betemit is a ****ing terrible shortstop.

I'm kinda gunning for his 2007 season.

AA: .275/.355/.387, 3 HR, 17 RBI
AAA: .287/.331/.436, 10 HR, 41 RBI

Lately I have NOT been happy with his high strikeout rates as you mentioned. If he keeps that up then forget it. But if he can get that .330-.350 OBP with decent speed and above-average defense count me in.

oeo
03-05-2009, 03:35 PM
I think all 3 bring very mediocre offensive consistency, therefore I would pick the guy with the best glove.

Actually, they all bring crap, and I said the same thing in the next line.

Tragg
03-05-2009, 03:41 PM
Time will tell regarding Owens ability, or lack of ability on defense. I don't think he is any worse than average. Knock on wood, watch him boot three balls on opening day now that I have said this.
He won't boot them because he won't get to them. Even last night, he couldn't cut off Fontenot's single or double turned triple because of lack bad OF defense.

oeo
03-05-2009, 03:42 PM
He won't boot them because he won't get to them. Even last night, he couldn't cut off Fontenot's single or double turned triple because of lack bad OF defense.

No one was going to cut off that triple. Are you kidding? On a gapper like that, I'd say Owens is more likely than Anderson to cut it off.

As for letting him stretch it into a triple, I thought that was more of Kroeger being slow as **** (the ball was hit more towards right than center). I don't even know what happened out there because Len and Bren were too busy talking about the great baserunning by Fontenot. Hell, they couldn't even show the replay...they had to show Fontenot rounding the bases.

Konerko05
03-05-2009, 04:58 PM
No one was going to cut off that triple. Are you kidding? On a gapper like that, I'd say Owens is more likely than Anderson to cut it off.

As for letting him stretch it into a triple, I thought that was more of Kroeger being slow as **** (the ball was hit more towards right than center). I don't even know what happened out there because Len and Bren were too busy talking about the great baserunning by Fontenot. Hell, they couldn't even show the replay...they had to show Fontenot rounding the bases.

I'm pretty sure Owens bobbled the ball. It probably would have only been a double if he came up with it cleanly. It doesn't really matter though. It's one small mistake in ST. There is ample evidence from 2007 showing Owens is not a good CFer.

Rdy2PlayBall
03-05-2009, 06:33 PM
I say leave Beckham in the minors unless the Sox need him. I want to see this guy get rookie of the year and get some inspiration rather than waist his chances by playing the last end of the season with low numbers. I know, "your and idiot, who gives a **** about RoY :angry::angry::angry:" Well... I do, so I don't care if you disagree with my reasoning. :rolleyes: Still, he can really bust out if he plays a year in the minors, no matter how ready he is.

I'm still hoping everyone gets hurt and he has to start this season though. :redneck (little hurt, I don't want to mess up anyone's career)

sox1970
03-05-2009, 07:02 PM
Beckham starts at 2B against Team Australia tomorrow.

I hope they give this guy a shot to make the team out of spring training. I know the reasons why they shouldn't, but I don't care. If this guy can play, he can play.

oeo
03-05-2009, 07:16 PM
I'm pretty sure Owens bobbled the ball. It probably would have only been a double if he came up with it cleanly. It doesn't really matter though. It's one small mistake in ST. There is ample evidence from 2007 showing Owens is not a good CFer.

He's also not a bad centerfielder, and Brian Anderson is not Superman.

I still think it was a triple, Fontenot was almost to second before Owens even got to the ball. Again, Kroeger was running like he had something on his back.

Daver
03-05-2009, 07:50 PM
He's also not a bad centerfielder, and Brian Anderson is not Superman.


Jerry Owens is a bad fielder, if you are going to defend his abilities then I have to question your ability to judge talent, or actually the lack thereof.

DirtySox
03-05-2009, 08:19 PM
Beckham starts at 2B against Team Australia tomorrow.

I hope they give this guy a shot to make the team out of spring training. I know the reasons why they shouldn't, but I don't care. If this guy can play, he can play.

Did you find a lineup for that game?

JB98
03-05-2009, 08:56 PM
Isn't this a thread about 2B?

ANOTHER CF hijack? Seriously?

Frater Perdurabo
03-05-2009, 08:59 PM
Isn't this a thread about 2B?

ANOTHER CF hijack? Seriously?

Wasn't me.

For the record, I don't care who wins the 2B job. I would be most pleased if whoever wins the 2B job could play great defense and be a solid leadoff hitter.

JB98
03-05-2009, 09:01 PM
Wasn't me.

For the record, I don't care who wins the 2B job. I would be most pleased if whoever wins the 2B job could play great defense and be a solid leadoff hitter.

Root for Lillibridge to pick it up with the bat then. I think he's potentially very good defensively, but his strikeout total and overall hitting have not been impressive.

Getz is the best hitter of the group, but the great defense you speak of ain't happening with him.

Corlose 15
03-05-2009, 09:12 PM
Root for Lillibridge to pick it up with the bat then. I think he's potentially very good defensively, but his strikeout total and overall hitting have not been impressive.

Getz is the best hitter of the group, but the great defense you speak of ain't happening with him.


It's incredibly early at this point but Lillibridge has had a couple games w/ 3 Ks as well as a couple games with 3 hits. Hopefully he can pick it up to the point where the K/BB ratio is a bit more serviceable. The fact that he's got a good glove and can play SS and CF will help him get a roster spot.

Who knows, whoever wins the job out of ST may not end up being the Sox primary 2B this year. On opening day last year Uribe started at 2B.

Konerko05
03-05-2009, 10:33 PM
He's also not a bad centerfielder, and Brian Anderson is not Superman.

I still think it was a triple, Fontenot was almost to second before Owens even got to the ball. Again, Kroeger was running like he had something on his back.

Jerry Owens is a bad CFer. Brian Anderson is a very good CFer.

The replay showed Fontenot getting ready to pull up at 2B until he realized Owens bobbled the ball. One of the Cubs announcers even mentioned a White Sox outfielder bobbling the ball. I'm guessing it was Owens because he made it to the ball first.

Tragg
03-06-2009, 08:32 AM
No one was going to cut off that triple. Are you kidding? On a gapper like that, I'd say Owens is more likely than Anderson to cut it off.

As for letting him stretch it into a triple, I thought that was more of Kroeger being slow as **** (the ball was hit more towards right than center). I don't even know what happened out there because Len and Bren were too busy talking about the great baserunning by Fontenot. Hell, they couldn't even show the replay...they had to show Fontenot rounding the bases.
I agree that the right fielder was ridiculously slow; but Owens never even got into the picture. That gapper bounced well before the warning track. Someone bobbed it out there but as you pointed out they didn't say whom.

Owens has poor instincts out there that his speed can't make up for.

Tragg
03-06-2009, 08:32 AM
I would be most pleased if whoever wins the 2B job could play great defense and be a solid leadoff hitter.

Wouldn't that be nice.

thedudeabides
03-06-2009, 08:58 AM
Isn't this a thread about 2B?

ANOTHER CF hijack? Seriously?

It's amazing. It's almost impossible to have a baseball discussion around here, without it getting hijacked into a cf debate about who sucks worse.

This place has become a joke that way. This BA and JO **** has become more taboo than Rowand. It's out of control.

Sargeant79
03-06-2009, 09:06 AM
Who knows, whoever wins the job out of ST may not end up being the Sox primary 2B this year. On opening day last year Uribe started at 2B.

Good point...I could see a situation happening where May 15th or so rolls around and none of the three are doing well, Beckham is lighting up AA or AAA, and he gets called up a la Evan Longoria. For his development, it probably would be better for Beckham to see close to a full season in the minors, but he might very well play his way onto the team sooner rather than later if none of Nix, Getz, or Lillibridge has really taken hold of the position.

guillen4life13
03-06-2009, 09:59 AM
It's amazing. It's almost impossible to have a baseball discussion around here, without it getting hijacked into a cf debate about who sucks worse.

This place has become a joke that way. This BA and JO **** has become more taboo than Rowand. It's out of control.

Are you implying that at one point, it wasn't a joke? I still enjoy it. There have always been buffoons on these forums. Whether they are consistent buffoons or not is different, and there have always been oft over-referenced topics. This is nothing new.

Yet we all still post here because we enjoy it.

The 2B and CF situations are interlinked since the leadoff hitter for the 2009 Chicago White Sox will almost surely come from one of these two positions. You cannot have one discussion without the other playing a role.

The decision of who will be the everyday leadoff hitter is the independent variable to this whole deal. If Owens is the everyday leadoff hitter, then BA is the 4th OF and Lillibridge is either on the bench or in AAA, with either Getz or Nix starting.

If Lillibridge is the leadoff hitter, then Owens is in AAA, with either BA or Wise starting in CF (hopefully BA, just for the defense).

If Nix is the leadoff hitter (unlikely scenario) then Owens is probably in AAA or is the 4th OF with occasional leadoff duties.

The only way I see Chris Getz starting this season is if Owens wins the leadoff role. And even then, he would probably have to beat Jayson Nix out. Granted, it's early, but it's starting to look like Nix would win that job based on his fielding and experience. That's not to say he's better than Getz, but it's to say that he's probably more ready to be a consistent MLB hitter with the better glove to boot (according to what I've read).

oeo
03-06-2009, 10:05 AM
Are you implying that at one point, it wasn't a joke? I still enjoy it. There have always been buffoons on these forums. Whether they are consistent buffoons or not is different, and there have always been oft over-referenced topics. This is nothing new.

Yet we all still post here because we enjoy it.

The 2B and CF situations are interlinked since the leadoff hitter for the 2009 Chicago White Sox will almost surely come from one of these two positions. You cannot have one discussion without the other playing a role.

The decision of who will be the everyday leadoff hitter is the independent variable to this whole deal. If Owens is the everyday leadoff hitter, then BA is the 4th OF and Lillibridge is either on the bench or in AAA, with either Getz or Nix starting.

If Lillibridge is the leadoff hitter, then Owens is in AAA, with either BA or Wise starting in CF (hopefully BA, just for the defense).

If Nix is the leadoff hitter (unlikely scenario) then Owens is probably in AAA or is the 4th OF with occasional leadoff duties.

The only way I see Chris Getz starting this season is if Owens wins the leadoff role. And even then, he would probably have to beat Jayson Nix out. Granted, it's early, but it's starting to look like Nix would win that job based on his fielding and experience. That's not to say he's better than Getz, but it's to say that he's probably more ready to be a consistent MLB hitter with the better glove to boot (according to what I've read).

I see absolutely no reason to keep Dewayne over Owens. Dewayne is a worse defender at all three outfield positions, and the only thing he has on Jerry is some pop. Let's not forget that we also have another base stealing threat in Lillibridge this year, if Owens has lost a step on the basepaths (and he's still more valuable than Wise).

A. Cavatica
03-06-2009, 08:11 PM
The only way I see Chris Getz starting this season is if Owens wins the leadoff role. And even then, he would probably have to beat Jayson Nix out. Granted, it's early, but it's starting to look like Nix would win that job based on his fielding and experience. That's not to say he's better than Getz, but it's to say that he's probably more ready to be a consistent MLB hitter with the better glove to boot (according to what I've read).

I think Getz is likely to be at least as good a leadoff hitter as Owens, and certainly he can field his position better than Owens. So there's another possibility: Getz winning the 2B competition and leading off, Lillibridge the backup IF (for versatility), Nix and Owens going to AAA.

Nice post, BTW.

everafan
03-06-2009, 08:17 PM
Right now it's Getz. He is an adequate defender and he is the only one of the three who can hit a line drive.

SBSoxFan
03-06-2009, 09:37 PM
Are you implying that at one point, it wasn't a joke? I still enjoy it. There have always been buffoons on these forums. Whether they are consistent buffoons or not is different, and there have always been oft over-referenced topics. This is nothing new.

Yet we all still post here because we enjoy it.

The 2B and CF situations are interlinked since the leadoff hitter for the 2009 Chicago White Sox will almost surely come from one of these two positions. You cannot have one discussion without the other playing a role.

The decision of who will be the everyday leadoff hitter is the independent variable to this whole deal. If Owens is the everyday leadoff hitter, then BA is the 4th OF and Lillibridge is either on the bench or in AAA, with either Getz or Nix starting.

If Lillibridge is the leadoff hitter, then Owens is in AAA, with either BA or Wise starting in CF (hopefully BA, just for the defense).

If Nix is the leadoff hitter (unlikely scenario) then Owens is probably in AAA or is the 4th OF with occasional leadoff duties.

The only way I see Chris Getz starting this season is if Owens wins the leadoff role. And even then, he would probably have to beat Jayson Nix out. Granted, it's early, but it's starting to look like Nix would win that job based on his fielding and experience. That's not to say he's better than Getz, but it's to say that he's probably more ready to be a consistent MLB hitter with the better glove to boot (according to what I've read).

Owens is out of options.

sox1970
03-06-2009, 09:46 PM
So you're tellin' me there's a chance...

http://chicago.whitesox.mlb.com/news/article.jsp?ymd=20090306&content_id=3932466&vkey=news_cws&fext=.jsp&c_id=cws

Hey, he's got four weeks to prove he belongs. Why not?

...
03-06-2009, 10:13 PM
So you're tellin' me there's a chance...

http://chicago.whitesox.mlb.com/news/article.jsp?ymd=20090306&content_id=3932466&vkey=news_cws&fext=.jsp&c_id=cws

Hey, he's got four weeks to prove he belongs. Why not?

IF Beckham plays with the MLB club this year it will later in the season, a la Evan Longoria, to preserve a year of arbitration eligibility.

Tragg
03-07-2009, 08:46 AM
The 2B and CF situations are interlinked since the leadoff hitter for the 2009 Chicago White Sox will almost surely come from one of these two positions. You cannot have one discussion without the other playing a role.
That's true if Guillen insists on having a "base stealer" at leadoff. Most people assume he does and the only real basestealers are Owens, Wise and some 2B candidates.
This could settle a lot cleaner if he'd drop that notion, as it's not essential considering the power on this team.
I am rooting for the best defender at each position.

champagne030
03-07-2009, 11:29 AM
IF Beckham plays with the MLB club this year it will later in the season, a la Evan Longoria, to preserve a year of arbitration eligibility.

Won't Longoria qualify for Super two status?

I think it makes no sense to hold a good player down for a month to try and limit his arbitration status. Assuming said player is as good as you think, he'll be on the 25 man roster the whole time and end up in the top 17% of service time.

You need to wait until the second 1/2 of the season if you're going to try and play games with arbitration status, IMO.

All that said, Beckham is still 3-13 with one walk. Braun and Longoria both had about 700 MiLB AB's before they were brought up and I think they were more advanced at the plate than Beckham is at this point. He should start at Birmingham and let him tear it up for a 1/2 season there before we think about advancing him.

WhiteSox5187
03-07-2009, 11:41 AM
That's true if Guillen insists on having a "base stealer" at leadoff. Most people assume he does and the only real basestealers are Owens, Wise and some 2B candidates.
This could settle a lot cleaner if he'd drop that notion, as it's not essential considering the power on this team.
I am rooting for the best defender at each position.

I am willing to bet that Getz can probably steal as many bases as OC did last year. Remember last year Ozzie started Swisher at leadoff until he completely fell off the face of the earth and he was not exactly a base stealer. Ideally you would have a guy with a high OBP who can steal a lot of bases for you leading off, but if it comes between a guy with a high OBP and not a whole lot of speed and a guy who can steal a lot of bases but can't get on base, you take the guy who gets on. Ozzie knows that and I think will come thru on it.

Tragg
03-07-2009, 12:02 PM
I am willing to bet that Getz can probably steal as many bases as OC did last year. Remember last year Ozzie started Swisher at leadoff until he completely fell off the face of the earth and he was not exactly a base stealer. Ideally you would have a guy with a high OBP who can steal a lot of bases for you leading off, but if it comes between a guy with a high OBP and not a whole lot of speed and a guy who can steal a lot of bases but can't get on base, you take the guy who gets on. Ozzie knows that and I think will come thru on it.
The thing is that we don't have a high obp guy to put there...and of course I fear that Guillen will insist on sticking a lousy baseball player in there because he has speed...last year we were saved with that by injury and only by injury.
Cabrera had neither ideal speed nor on base ability. But he was the best choice we had, once Swisher hit the skids. I

champagne030
03-07-2009, 01:35 PM
The thing is that we don't have a high obp guy to put there...and of course I fear that Guillen will insist on sticking a lousy baseball player in there because he has speed...last year we were saved with that by injury and only by injury.
Cabrera had neither ideal speed nor on base ability. But he was the best choice we had, once Swisher hit the skids. I

This is where Kenny needs to step up to the plate. He needs to give Ozzie the roster and take away options he knows that the manager will abuse and **** up.

voodoochile
03-07-2009, 03:08 PM
This is where Kenny needs to step up to the plate. He needs to give Ozzie the roster and take away options he knows that the manager will abuse and **** up.

:?:

Or maybe build the best roster you can with the manager's input and let him handle the game time decisions like he's been hired to do. If you don't trust him to do that much, he shouldn't be the manager anyway...

champagne030
03-07-2009, 04:46 PM
:?:

Or maybe build the best roster you can with the manager's input and let him handle the game time decisions like he's been hired to do. If you don't trust him to do that much, he shouldn't be the manager anyway...

Sure, take the managers input, but realize that said manager has already proven to not be able to judge talent when making the final decision.

See Owens, Jerry starting over Quentin, Carlos as his most egregious error in talent/lineup.

WhiteSox5187
03-07-2009, 05:16 PM
The thing is that we don't have a high obp guy to put there...and of course I fear that Guillen will insist on sticking a lousy baseball player in there because he has speed...last year we were saved with that by injury and only by injury.
Cabrera had neither ideal speed nor on base ability. But he was the best choice we had, once Swisher hit the skids. I
I'm curious to see what Getz could do, even though that is an awfully big task to just throw into the lap of a rookie. Now if Lillebridge (forgive my spelling) could get on base at a .350 clip, oooh man! That would be great!

voodoochile
03-07-2009, 05:25 PM
Sure, take the managers input, but realize that said manager has already proven to not be able to judge talent when making the final decision.

See Owens, Jerry starting over Quentin, Carlos as his most egregious error in talent/lineup.

Um when did that happen exactly?

Metalthrasher442
03-07-2009, 05:42 PM
Um when did that happen exactly?

I'm assuming he meant if Jerry was healthy at the start of last season, Jerry would have started over Quentin.

JB98
03-07-2009, 05:49 PM
I'm assuming he meant if Jerry was healthy at the start of last season, Jerry would have started over Quentin.

We will never know that because Owens wasn't healthy.

Ramirez started in CF ahead of Quentin on Opening Day.

Of course, by the time the Sox made it to Detroit for their second series of the season, Quentin was in the lineup for good.

I think Carlos sat on the bench for the first two games of the season. This "poor talent evaluation" by Guillen didn't cost the Sox very much at all.

Tragg
03-07-2009, 06:02 PM
This is where Kenny needs to step up to the plate. He needs to give Ozzie the roster and take away options he knows that the manager will abuse and **** up.
I agree with you.
He has consistently misevaluated talent, particularly overvaluing undisciplined slap hitters.

tm1119
03-07-2009, 06:48 PM
Sure, take the managers input, but realize that said manager has already proven to not be able to judge talent when making the final decision.

See Owens, Jerry starting over Quentin, Carlos as his most egregious error in talent/lineup.

Hindsight is always 20/20. Despite how much you hate Owens and despite how well Quentin played last year, he still hit .214 the year before with more SO's than hits. There was no real reason to expect him to be the opening day starter, and definitely no reason to think he was going to do as well as he did.

champagne030
03-07-2009, 06:59 PM
Um when did that happen exactly?

See ST 2008.

oeo
03-07-2009, 07:03 PM
See ST 2008.

When Quentin was taken along slowly because he was coming off of surgery? :scratch:

champagne030
03-07-2009, 07:06 PM
When Quentin was taken along slowly because he was coming off of surgery? :scratch:

No, when Ozzie thought Owens was better and then had to turn to tQC when Owens hurt himself.

oeo
03-07-2009, 07:10 PM
No, when Ozzie thought Owens was better and then had to turn to tQC when Owens hurt himself.

Refresh my memory, when did Ozzie say he was better?

Quentin played little and didn't do much of anything until late in Spring Training. That's bad talent evaluation, or the training staff holding him back early on?

There's one guy Ozzie has evaluated quite well since 2006.

JB98
03-07-2009, 07:12 PM
:threadsucks

champagne030
03-07-2009, 07:36 PM
There's one guy Ozzie has evaluated quite well since 2006.

I hope you're not talking about Danks or Floyd.

Or his choice to piss away 2006 by playing Mack O WacK in CF

And yes, Ozzie thought a lineup with Owens was better than a lineup with tCQ. :shrug:

DSpivack
03-07-2009, 07:40 PM
I hope you're not talking about Danks or Floyd.

And yes, Ozzie thought a lineup with Owens was better than a lineup
with tCQ . :shrug:

You still haven't proven that he actually thought this, though.

As for TCQ coming off a year where hit .218 with more K's than hits, he also was dealing with injuries that whole year. You don't look at one year to determine the worth of a player.

WhiteSox5187
03-07-2009, 07:48 PM
I don't understand why people are trying to say that Ozzie was going to start Owens over Quentin when in fact, Kenny Williams told Ozzie (and Ozzie agreed with him) to hold back on Quentin because they wanted him to be totally healthy and until the very of ST used him sparingly. I think, and I have no way of proving this, but I think the plan was for Quentin to start the year out in AAA and then join the big club in May or so.

While I'm sure there are more, the only two talent evaluations that Ozzie has done poorly that I can recall are putting Mack in CF in '06 (though that might be more of a reflection of how piss poor our bench was) and putting Terrero in CF in '07 but he was only out there because everyone else was hurt and Owens sucked.

champagne030
03-07-2009, 07:50 PM
You still haven't proven that he actually thought this, though.

As for TCQ coming off a year where hit .218 with more K's than hits, he also was dealing with injuries that whole year. You don't look at one year to determine the worth of a player.

It was quoted in the paper that tCQ was going down.

I take it you don't know tCQ's history. He was a monster in MiLB and got hurt after putting up terrific numbers in a short stint with AZ and them signing Byrnes to a long term deal and had prospects to back him up.

DSpivack
03-07-2009, 07:53 PM
It was quoted in the paper that tCQ was going down.

I take it you don't know tCQ's history. He was a monster in MiLB and got hurt after putting up terrific numbers in a short stint with AZ and them signing Byrnes to a long term deal and had prospects to back him up.

I do know TCQ's history, you just restated what I said in a different way.

Sending a player down for rehab and sending a player down because of skill are two different things.

tm1119
03-07-2009, 07:54 PM
I don't understand why people are trying to say that Ozzie was going to start Owens over Quentin when in fact, Kenny Williams told Ozzie (and Ozzie agreed with him) to hold back on Quentin because they wanted him to be totally healthy and until the very of ST used him sparingly. I think, and I have no way of proving this, but I think the plan was for Quentin to start the year out in AAA and then join the big club in May or so.

While I'm sure there are more, the only two talent evaluations that Ozzie has done poorly that I can recall are putting Mack in CF in '06 (though that might be more of a reflection of how piss poor our bench was) and putting Terrero in CF in '07 but he was only out there because everyone else was hurt and Owens sucked.

I agree with you on the first part. As for the 2nd part, who exactly could have played that would have been any better? Ozzie has been in a losing battle with the CF position ever since Rowand left. Hes really had no right choice the entire time.

voodoochile
03-07-2009, 07:54 PM
See ST 2008.

Spring Training?

BWAHAHAHAHAHAHAHA!!!

oeo
03-07-2009, 07:56 PM
I hope you're not talking about Danks or Floyd.

Nope.

Or his choice to piss away 2006 by playing Mack O WacK in CFNope, wrong again, but this is a complete joke. Pissed away 2006 by who was playing in CF? :rolling:

How about...
1)Our bullpen was not very good.
2)Our pitching staff was shot from the year before.
3)Buehrle had the worst year of his career.

Mackowiak was the least of our problems.

And yes, Ozzie thought a lineup with Owens was better than a lineup with tCQ. :shrug:It was quoted in the paper that tCQ was going down.You've been known to BS before...I'm not looking it up. Prove it. You seem to have such a good memory of what Ozzie says/doesn't say, does/doesn't do in his personal life, etc., etc., so it shouldn't be too difficult to find this quote.

voodoochile
03-07-2009, 07:57 PM
I hope you're not talking about Danks or Floyd.

Or his choice to piss away 2006 by playing Mack O WacK in CF

And yes, Ozzie thought a lineup with Owens was better than a lineup with tCQ. :shrug:

Go ahead tell us another on, hater...

GMAB...

You have NO idea if what you are saying is true or not. You are just making stuff up that makes you sound like you know what the **** you are talking about to back up your agenda that OG isn't a good evaluator of talent. In the end, it's still just a bunch of made-up hooey...

champagne030
03-07-2009, 08:10 PM
I do know TCQ's history, you just restated what I said in a different way.

Sending a player down for rehab and sending a player down because of skill are two different things.

Yes, they are and Ozzie wanted to send tCQ down because he thought Owens was better, injury or not. :shrug:

champagne030
03-07-2009, 08:13 PM
Go ahead tell us another on, hater...

GMAB...

You have NO idea if what you are saying is true or not. You are just making stuff up that makes you sound like you know what the **** you are talking about to back up your agenda that OG isn't a good evaluator of talent. In the end, it's still just a bunch of made-up hooey...

:koolaid:

And you just make up stuff that makes it look like you have a clue. :shrug:

oeo
03-07-2009, 08:14 PM
Yes, they are and Ozzie wanted to send tCQ down because he thought Owens was better, injury or not. :shrug:

Your shoulders must be tired from all that shrugging.

Anyhow...it's all BS until you prove it with a quote.

champagne030
03-07-2009, 08:16 PM
Spring Training?

BWAHAHAHAHAHAHAHA!!!

Ignore ST 2009........

BWAHAHAHAHAHAHAHA!!!

oeo
03-07-2009, 08:18 PM
:koolaid:

And you just make up stuff that makes it look like you have a clue. :shrug:

Who sits there and acts like they're God's gift to scouting, and then is slapped in the face with reality time and time again?

champagne030
03-07-2009, 08:21 PM
Your shoulders must be tired from all that shrugging.

Anyhow...it's all BS until you prove it with a quote.

I'm not going to do your homework Jr. Look it up and get educated. The shrugging if from dip****s that are still living in 2005.

champagne030
03-07-2009, 08:22 PM
Who sits there and acts like they're God's gift to scouting, and then is slapped in the face with reality time and time again?


You? I don't know.

oeo
03-07-2009, 08:28 PM
I'm not going to do your homework Jr. Look it up and get educated.

Jr.? Alright, gramps.

I already told you I'm not wasting my time looking up your likely made up quote. I've spent time looking for your "quotes" before, and they're nowhere to be found.

The shrugging if from dip****s that are still living in 2005.

Do you seriously think you and your buddies at that other site's opinion is better, that everything the Sox do or say is wrong? Find a middle ground, and I'd take your opinion more seriously.

Daver
03-07-2009, 08:28 PM
Who sits there and acts like they're God's gift to scouting, and then is slapped in the face with reality time and time again?

The guy that claims Jerry Owens is a decent defensive center fielder?

oeo
03-07-2009, 08:32 PM
The guy that claims Jerry Owens is a decent defensive center fielder?

Good choice of word on decent...I have no problem with that.

I'm going to state my opinion on guys I have actually seen play, sure. champagne will come here preaching to us about some third hand source that he read on the internet about why so-and-so sucks.

Tragg
03-07-2009, 08:33 PM
Erstad is a .400 hitter
Uribe for 2 months, while Missle sat.
The love of jerry owens
Casting off Sweeney, prefering Torrero and Owens and Erstad. Sweeney, while not great, towers over Torrero and Owens.
And a lot of other stuff mentioned above

He's a lot better with pitchers, although I don't know if he's let coop handle that.

I can't evaluate talent....I'm looking at stuff retrospectively, for the most part.

But you expect a major league manager to.

And some of it is his philosophy -he's not a big believer in obp for his slappers, preferring "aggressive" hitters rather than hitters who take pitches and work counts.

oeo
03-07-2009, 08:38 PM
Erstad is a .400 hitter
Uribe for 2 months, while Missle sat.
The love of jerry owens
Casting off Sweeney, prefering Torrero and Owens and Erstad. Sweeney, while not great, towers over Torrero and Owens.
And a lot of other stuff mentioned above

Anderson sucks
Alexei has said himself that he struggled early on because of the cold. There were many people questioning his decision to even put him on the roster.
Kenny Williams loves Owens too. Not only is he the one who acquired him, he's the one who keeps him on the roster year after year.
Sweeney was really struggling, so he was sent back down. Then he got hurt. Ozzie on Sweeney when he was sent down before 2007:
Sweeney is still a baby. He's going to be here for a good long time.I don't remember Ozzie having anything but praise for Sweeney. He just wasn't ready. You can say all you want about how much the other options sucked, but Sweeney had already proven that he still needed work in the minors.

JB98
03-07-2009, 08:41 PM
Erstad is a .400 hitter
Uribe for 2 months, while Missle sat.
The love of jerry owens
Casting off Sweeney, prefering Torrero and Owens and Erstad. Sweeney, while not great, towers over Torrero and Owens.
And a lot of other stuff mentioned above

He's a lot better with pitchers, although I don't know if he's let coop handle that.

I can't evaluate talent....I'm looking at stuff retrospectively, for the most part.

But you expect a major league manager to.

And some of it is his philosophy -he's not a big believer in obp for his slappers, preferring "aggressive" hitters rather than hitters who take pitches and work counts.

That's really hindsight there. I remember the first two months of last season people were demanding that Ramirez be sent to the minors because he looked so lost at the plate.

I don't think that playing Uribe the first six weeks or so was a bad decision. At that point, he was the better option considering the way Alexei was struggling to adjust to cold weather, a new country and playing in the big leagues. The Sox knew Ramirez had potential. They didn't know how quickly the lightbulb would turn on. It's incredibly easy to criticize that choice now, but at the time, it was hardly unreasonable.

I'm really, really tired about the whole Owens-over-Quentin thing. Again, Carlos sat for two games before joining the regular lineup. The way people blow that out of proportion, you would think that Quentin sat on the bench for 50 games. In reality, it was just two crummy games in Cleveland, both of which featured Sox starting pitchers getting lit up. What difference did that really make?

Tekijawa
03-07-2009, 08:41 PM
I haven't seen 2nd base mentioned in 4 pages...

JB98
03-07-2009, 08:47 PM
I haven't seen 2nd base mentioned in 4 pages...

Good point. This thread was hijacked long ago.

I still hope Lillibridge steps up with the bat and wins the competition.

thedudeabides
03-07-2009, 08:52 PM
I haven't seen 2nd base mentioned in 4 pages...

I've lost all hope around here of having any Sox discussion that doesn't end in a hijack revolved around CF. It's pathetic.

Tragg
03-07-2009, 08:53 PM
That's really hindsight there. I remember the first two months of last season people were demanding that Ramirez be sent to the minors because he looked so lost at the plate. ?
I absolutely use hindsight- but ML managers need some foresight.

That said, I don't see this as hindsight. Missle was slated to be the starting 2b and Williams released Uribe (or was about to). Uribe started crying, went to Guillen, and Williams relented. But he was still a bench player.

THEN Owens gets hurt and Guillen moves Missle to CF and puts Uribe at 2b. Missle doesn't hit for 2 days, so, surprise surprise, he sits for 2 months. FORTUNATELY Quentin hit the ball hard in his 2nd game (and I think got a hit in his first) and he never left the lineup.

He almost had it exactly backwards.
What saved the season was Quentin hitting immediately, right off the "bat" so to speak.

JB98
03-07-2009, 08:57 PM
I absolutely use hindsight- but ML managers need some foresight.

That said, I don't see this as hindsight. Missle was slated to be the starting 2b and Williams released Uribe (or was about to). Uribe started crying, went to Guillen, and Williams relented. But he was still a bench player.

THEN Owens gets hurt and Guillen moves Missle to CF and puts Uribe at 2b. Missle doesn't hit for 2 days, so, surprise surprise, he sits for 2 months. FORTUNATELY Quentin hit the ball hard in his 2nd game (and I think got a hit in his first) and he never left the lineup.

He almost had it exactly backwards.
What saved the season was Quentin hitting immediately, right off the "bat" so to speak.

You would have to have been omniscient to think Ramirez was going to play as well as he did given how he looked early in the year. KW and Ozzie were actually taking heat for not sending Ramirez to Charlotte.

Frankly, I think you guys are complaining about nothing. The Sox played to their potential last year. Overall, it was a fine season.

Tragg
03-07-2009, 09:03 PM
Frankly, I think you guys are complaining about nothing. The Sox played to their potential last year. Overall, it was a fine season.
Absolutely.Would we had Owens not gotten hurt?
Nobody can forsee all of this-I know that. But he's thinking about Missle in AAA, TCQ on the bench or AAA...but no thoughts about Jerry Owens in AAA- oh no, he gets the most at bats on the team. That's just daft

I agree with you-I hope for Lillibridge. But if he's swinging and missing-is he taking walks or anything?

JB98
03-07-2009, 09:09 PM
Absolutely.
Would we had Owens not gotten hurt?

I agree with you-I hope for Lillibridge. But if he's swinging and missing-is he taking walks or anything?

Only one walk in 20 plate appearances. He has struck out seven times. Of his five hits, all are singles.

I think he has a significantly better glove than Getz, but he's languishing behind with the bat. Getz is clearly more polished offensively, but we'll lose some defense up the middle if he wins the job.

Would we have had a good year if Owens had not gotten hurt last year? Who knows? All I can tell you is I'm not happy with any of our CF options and I'm weary of this argument seeping into so many different threads.

Tragg
03-07-2009, 09:13 PM
Only one walk in 20 plate appearances. He has struck out seven times. Of his five hits, all are singles.

I think he has a significantly better glove than Getz, but he's languishing behind with the bat. Getz is clearly more polished offensively, but we'll lose some defense up the middle if he wins the job.

What's the problem with Getz-range?

JB98
03-07-2009, 09:14 PM
What's the problem with Getz-range?

IMO, yes.

Maybe I'm a little spoiled because Ramirez displayed SS-like range at the position last year. Getz isn't going to get to nearly as much as Alexei did.

thedudeabides
03-07-2009, 09:16 PM
Absolutely.
Would we had Owens not gotten hurt?

I agree with you-I hope for Lillibridge. But if he's swinging and missing-is he taking walks or anything?


BUT HE GOT HURT. What's so hard about this. Who knows what would have happened had he not? Nobody, because he did. You know what, we should blame Ozzie for starting Jose the day he blew out his achilles. How did he not see that coming?

No matter what there are a couple of posters who are just going to come into any thread when they feel it's relevant, even though most of the time it's not, and spit out their rhetoric about Ozzie, Jerry Owens, or Brian Anderson. Quentin and Ramirez had excellent years last year. No matter how many hypotheticals you can come up with about how it almost didn't happen.

Tragg
03-07-2009, 09:16 PM
IMO, yes.

Maybe I'm a little spoiled because Ramirez displayed SS-like range at the position last year. Getz isn't going to get to nearly as much as Alexei did.
Unless someone is compelling with the bat, play the best defender at 2b, play the best defender in CF and leadoff with the Missle.

JB98
03-07-2009, 09:23 PM
Unless someone is compelling with the bat, play the best defender at 2b, play the best defender in CF and leadoff with the Missle.

Nix is good with the leather, and he might be the best defender among the three candidates at 2B. I think Lillibridge is not too far behind, and he obviously has the better upside.

Nix has been hitting well in spring training, too. He might win this thing.

tm1119
03-07-2009, 09:48 PM
Unless someone is compelling with the bat, play the best defender at 2b, play the best defender in CF and leadoff with the Missle.

I understand that because of our shaky pitching staff you want to put the best defense on the field, but we also have to score to offset that shaky pitching staff. We already have Fields most likely hitting .250 or under and AJ being sub par offensively. I really dont think we can afford to put the 2 worst options in the lineup at 2b and CF too. What would the lineup look like? I honestly think we are gonna have to out slug opposing teams to win a lot of games.

voodoochile
03-07-2009, 10:00 PM
Yeah, Ozzie sucks so bad at evaluating talent that he actually left ST last year with both TCQ and TCM on the team when many people thought they should both start the year at AAA. Then (ohmigawd) he actually waited 2 days to put TCQ in the lineup and then waited until May to give TCM a shot at an everyday infield job because he hadn't hit for **** early in the year. :rolleyes:

SBSoxFan
03-07-2009, 10:07 PM
We will never know that because Owens wasn't healthy.

Ramirez started in CF ahead of Quentin on Opening Day.

Of course, by the time the Sox made it to Detroit for their second series of the season, Quentin was in the lineup for good.

I think Carlos sat on the bench for the first two games of the season. This "poor talent evaluation" by Guillen didn't cost the Sox very much at all.

I think Swisher started in front of Quentin. Given the history of the two, that's not so shocking.

Erstad is a .400 hitter
Uribe for 2 months, while Missle sat.
The love of jerry owens
Casting off Sweeney, prefering Torrero and Owens and Erstad. Sweeney, while not great, towers over Torrero and Owens.
And a lot of other stuff mentioned above

He's a lot better with pitchers, although I don't know if he's let coop handle that.

I can't evaluate talent....I'm looking at stuff retrospectively, for the most part.

But you expect a major league manager to.

And some of it is his philosophy -he's not a big believer in obp for his slappers, preferring "aggressive" hitters rather than hitters who take pitches and work counts.

Others have already commented on this, but I believe your last comment goes against what the Sox actually did last year. They put a high OBP guy in the lead-off spot --- Swisher. And Swisher stayed in the lineup after Quentin was put in LF to keep the high OBP guy leading off. No way was Quentin going to lead off, and no way was Quentin going to play CF.

Also, wasn't Sweeney dealt in the trade for Swisher. Someone, maybe not you, suggested the Sox gave up on Sweeney. Again, that doesn't seem to be the case. He was used to get Swisher. Most people thought that was a good idea at the time.

SBSoxFan
03-07-2009, 10:11 PM
I understand that because of our shaky pitching staff you want to put the best defense on the field, but we also have to score to offset that shaky pitching staff. We already have Fields most likely hitting .250 or under and AJ being sub par offensively. I really dont think we can afford to put the 2 worst options in the lineup at 2b and CF too. What would the lineup look like? I honestly think we are gonna have to out slug opposing teams to win a lot of games.

So far, the pitching is looking to be very strong and deep for the the Sox. Marquez and Richard are both throwing well. We all know how far ahead of expectations Contreras is, and Colon seems to be progressing nicely.

Tragg
03-07-2009, 10:14 PM
I understand that because of our shaky pitching staff you want to put the best defense on the field, but we also have to score to offset that shaky pitching staff. We already have Fields most likely hitting .250 or under and AJ being sub par offensively. I really dont think we can afford to put the 2 worst options in the lineup at 2b and CF too. What would the lineup look like? I honestly think we are gonna have to out slug opposing teams to win a lot of games.
That's the point - what sluggers do you see at 2b and CF? None. Thus, play the best defender because we have some good defenders.

The reason Fields is at 3b IS because of his bat and bat-potential.

The pitching may be pretty good - the top 3 starters are probably the best top 3 of the division; the bullpen is solid and deep. That's not that bad- and with some luck, could be good.

HebrewHammer
03-07-2009, 10:19 PM
It sounds like all of the competitors are sick or hurt. Good thing we get an extra week of ST this year. I've got to think Getz is still the favorite to win the job with Lillibridge and Nix fighting for a bench spot.

tm1119
03-07-2009, 10:34 PM
So far, the pitching is looking to be very strong and deep for the the Sox. Marquez and Richard are both throwing well. We all know how far ahead of expectations Contreras is, and Colon seems to be progressing nicely.

Come on now guys, lets be realistic here. Our pitching staff needs a lot of improvement. The top 3 are very solid, but there is no ace there. And then the 4 and 5 are out of a couple of old, injured, and washed up vets, or a few average prospects.

DumpJerry
03-07-2009, 10:47 PM
Come on now guys, lets be realistic here. Our pitching staff needs a lot of improvement. The top 3 are very solid, but there is no ace there.
:burly
You don't say........

tm1119
03-07-2009, 10:59 PM
:burly
You don't say........

I love Buehrle as much as the next guy, hes as solid as they come. But hes no ace. Not even close really.

WhiteSoxOnly
03-07-2009, 11:31 PM
I love Buehrle as much as the next guy, hes as solid as they come. But hes no ace. Not even close really.

True stuff...he's a rock most of the time but an ace,i don't
think so.Aces are guys like Halladay,Santana,Webb,Lincecum
to name a few who can beat you many times over with their
stuff.Burls isn't like that...but that said,i'm damn glad we have
him.He does have something the others don't which will always
endear him to us though,that piece of jewelry on his hand.:wink:

cards press box
03-08-2009, 03:08 AM
Come on now guys, lets be realistic here. Our pitching staff needs a lot of improvement. The top 3 are very solid, but there is no ace there. And then the 4 and 5 are out of a couple of old, injured, and washed up vets, or a few average prospects.

John Danks looks like a possible #1 or #2 pitcher. Buerhle has long been at least a #2 starter. Floyd was very good last year. We'll have to wait and see what Contreras and Colon have left. Both threw the ball well last prior to getting injured. I wouldn't write them off yet.

The next wave of Sox starters will likely include Aaron Poreda and Jeff Marquez. If Poreda can develop a 3rd pitch, he could very well be a #1 starter. Marquez has good movement on his pitches. He, too, could become a stalwart in the Sox rotation for years to come.

sox1970
03-08-2009, 02:50 PM
Beckham leading off and playing 2B today.

Beckham, Ramirez, and Quentin 1-3...I like it. I like it a lot.

jabrch
03-08-2009, 03:03 PM
Come on now guys, lets be realistic here. Our pitching staff needs a lot of improvement. The top 3 are very solid, but there is no ace there. And then the 4 and 5 are out of a couple of old, injured, and washed up vets, or a few average prospects.

Depends on how hou define an arbitrary term like "ACE".

If you mean one of the top 30 pitchers, thus a #1 in some rotation, then I think he is an ace. If you mean a guy who got 8 years and 175mm, then he isn't.

I hate the term ACE or #1. It means very little.

SoxGirl4Life
03-08-2009, 03:05 PM
Beckham leading off and playing 2B today.

Beckham, Ramirez, and Quentin 1-3...I like it. I like it a lot.

And its on free MLB.tv

HomeFish
03-08-2009, 04:53 PM
When he's healthy (e.g., late 2005), Contreras has ace-like stuff. That guy put on a ****ing show in the playoffs.

sox1970
03-08-2009, 06:57 PM
Sox added a B game for tomorrow morning against the Dodgers. Beckham will start at 2B, and Getz will start against the Indians in the afternoon game.

sunofgold
03-08-2009, 07:12 PM
Long shot, but he is playing great. At the very least, Beckham could be starting at 2B some point in this season. Earlier than first thought.