PDA

View Full Version : Guillen on Ventura vs. Crede


Brian26
02-22-2009, 03:26 PM
I'm surprised this hasn't been mentioned here. I almost fell out of my chair when I read this in the morning paper. Guillen thinks Crede is the best third baseman in Sox history, not Ventura.

http://www.chicagotribune.com/sports/baseball/whitesox/chi-22-white-sox-bits-chicagofeb22,0,266986.story

The line of reasoning on Guillen's part is idiotic, especially since he's probably the best-suited person on the planet, other than maybe Ken Harrelson, to make a comparison between the two players.

Not only did Ventura have all-around better offensive and defensive stats, including five Gold Gloves, but he had a longer productive tenure with the Sox.

With Guillen's line of reasoning, Juan Uribe is the best shortstop in Sox history (not Luis Aparicio or Luke Appling) because he helped them win a World Series. And don't blame Ron Schueler because he didn't acquire any bullpen help in '96 or pull the trigger on the Bob Welch trade in 1991 or because the Sox were unlucky enough to run into a buzzsaw in the Toronto Blue Jays in '93. That's apparently all Ventura's fault.

Typical Ozzie.

Madscout
02-22-2009, 03:34 PM
I'm surprised this hasn't been mentioned here. I almost fell out of my chair when I read this in the morning paper. Guillen thinks Crede is the best third baseman in Sox history, not Ventura.

http://www.chicagotribune.com/sports/baseball/whitesox/chi-22-white-sox-bits-chicagofeb22,0,266986.story

The line of reasoning on Guillen's part is idiotic, especially since he's probably the best-suited person on the planet, other than maybe Ken Harrelson, to make a comparison between the two players.

Not only did Ventura have all-around better offensive and defensive stats, including five Gold Gloves, but he had a longer tenrure with the Sox.

With Guillen's line of reasoning, Juan Uribe is the best shortstop in Sox history (not Luis Aparicio or Luke Appling) because he helped them win a World Series. And don't blame Ron Schueler because he didn't acquire any bullpen help in '96 or pull the trigger on the Bob Welch trade in 1991 or because the Sox were unlucky enough to run into a buzzsaw in the Toronto Blue Jays in '93. That's apparently all Ventura's fault.

Typical Ozzie.
I don't think you can include the Gold Gloves. If the guy who is playing in NY was playing when Ventura was playing, he wouldn't have **** either.

voodoochile
02-22-2009, 03:35 PM
Meh, so he's got a soft spot for the guys he led to a championship. That's not that big of a deal, IMO.

jabrch
02-22-2009, 03:42 PM
People take Guillen too seriously when he talks. And regardless, who cares what his subjective opinion is of two guys not with the club? Just Ozzie being Ozzie. I'd imagine Ventura is laughing as would most people.

Joe did some amazing things for the Sox when he was here. That's enough for me to appreciate him - regardless of having to compare him to Robin.

Daver
02-22-2009, 03:56 PM
I don't recall ever hearing Ozzie get accused of having intelligence.

Bucky F. Dent
02-22-2009, 05:36 PM
Where's the love for Eric Soderholm?

champagne030
02-22-2009, 05:44 PM
I'm surprised this hasn't been mentioned here. I almost fell out of my chair when I read this in the morning paper. Guillen thinks Crede is the best third baseman in Sox history, not Ventura.

http://www.chicagotribune.com/sports/baseball/whitesox/chi-22-white-sox-bits-chicagofeb22,0,266986.story

The line of reasoning on Guillen's part is idiotic, especially since he's probably the best-suited person on the planet, other than maybe Ken Harrelson, to make a comparison between the two players.

Not only did Ventura have all-around better offensive and defensive stats, including five Gold Gloves, but he had a longer productive tenure with the Sox.

With Guillen's line of reasoning, Juan Uribe is the best shortstop in Sox history (not Luis Aparicio or Luke Appling) because he helped them win a World Series. And don't blame Ron Schueler because he didn't acquire any bullpen help in '96 or pull the trigger on the Bob Welch trade in 1991 or because the Sox were unlucky enough to run into a buzzsaw in the Toronto Blue Jays in '93. That's apparently all Ventura's fault.

Typical Ozzie.

Considering the source, it's not surprising.

Tragg
02-22-2009, 05:55 PM
No suprise - He evaluates the talent of players that he's managing with similar accuracy.

soxinem1
02-22-2009, 07:05 PM
Where's the love for Eric Soderholm?

Or Vance Law for that matter.:smile:

I disagree with being soft on what Ozzie says. If he takes the time and effort to make sure someone is writing down what he has to say, then he should be responsible for the validity fo his statements.

Considering he played almost a decade along-side Ventura, and managed Crede for five seasons, he is qualified enough to state his beliefs, and what he says should be taken as truth..... even though he is dead wrong on this one!

Bobby Thigpen
02-22-2009, 07:13 PM
:whocares

Brian26
02-22-2009, 07:26 PM
I think the topic is interesting enough to discuss, as it relates to team history and the current manager's opinion of a guy he played next to for eight full seasons, but maybe some people are happier arguing for another six weeks about how much Jerry Owens and/or Brian Anderson suck.

doublem23
02-22-2009, 07:58 PM
It's just Ozzie being Ozzie... I'm sure he's just tired of people ragging on Joe Crede, as if the last few months negates everything he did for the Sox.

rustysurf83
02-22-2009, 08:15 PM
It's just Ozzie being Ozzie... I'm sure he's just tired of people ragging on Joe Crede, as if the last few months negates everything he did for the Sox.

And maybe Ozzie thinks Ventura is an *******?

Crede was a vital piece of the WS win, Ventura was real real good for a long time, but ultimately what did we get for it?

Lip Man 1
02-22-2009, 08:27 PM
Well at least Robin stayed healthier for a longer period of time.

Lip

doublem23
02-22-2009, 08:28 PM
Crede was a vital piece of the WS win, Ventura was real real good for a long time, but ultimately what did we get for it?

You really can't blame Robin for the fact the Sox didn't win a World Series during his tenure, can you? Does that mean Frank's career was totally worthless until 2005?

Crede was an excellent third baseman when he was healthy and productive. Robin, simply, was better.

rustysurf83
02-22-2009, 08:39 PM
You really can't blame Robin for the fact the Sox didn't win a World Series during his tenure, can you? Does that mean Frank's career was totally worthless until 2005?

Crede was an excellent third baseman when he was healthy and productive. Robin, simply, was better.


Look at it from Ozzies perspective though, he played with Robin for a long time and ultimately got nothing. He was with the team with Crede and had probably his greatest baseball accomplishment in his life.

SOXSINCE'70
02-22-2009, 08:39 PM
Where's the love for Eric Soderholm?

Better yet, where's the love for "Beltin' " Bill Melton ?? :D:

Frater Perdurabo
02-22-2009, 08:58 PM
By any objective measure Ventura was a superior player. But he only got to play in one postseason series with the Sox.

Crede was/is inferior to Ventura, but he was blessed with the opportunity to play for a world champion, and had a fantastic ALCS and World Series.

doublem23
02-22-2009, 09:06 PM
Look at it from Ozzies perspective though, he played with Robin for a long time and ultimately got nothing. He was with the team with Crede and had probably his greatest baseball accomplishment in his life.

I can see that perspective and I think it's a terrible way to judge an individual player's merits over another. Paul O'Neill won 4 World Series titles; does that make him the best corner outfielder in the last 25 years? No.

The 2005 White Sox were the best team the Sox have fielded in my lifetime, but that doesn't mean every single part of that team was the best in Sox history.

rustysurf83
02-22-2009, 09:31 PM
I can see that perspective and I think it's a terrible way to judge an individual player's merits over another. Paul O'Neill won 4 World Series titles; does that make him the best corner outfielder in the last 25 years? No.

The 2005 White Sox were the best team the Sox have fielded in my lifetime, but that doesn't mean every single part of that team was the best in Sox history.

I completely agree, but Ozzie isn't exactly the most objective person of all time.:redneck

jabrch
02-22-2009, 10:55 PM
I completely agree, but Ozzie isn't exactly the most objective person of all time.:redneck

Nor the most precise in his statements. Taking Ozzie Guillen literally in every case is not a sign of wisdom. If you feel this is a time to take him literally, that's your choice.

salty99
02-23-2009, 10:22 AM
Hey Hey Hey, I'd take Ron Cey any day!

areilly
02-23-2009, 10:46 AM
Hey Hey Hey, I'd take Ron Cey any day!

I take offense at your belittlement of the achievements of one Herbert Edward Perry, Jr.

jdm2662
02-23-2009, 10:51 AM
I don't recall ever hearing Ozzie get accused of having intelligence.

:redneck

I got a kick out of this.

jdm2662
02-23-2009, 10:52 AM
People take Guillen too seriously when he talks. And regardless, who cares what his subjective opinion is of two guys not with the club? Just Ozzie being Ozzie. I'd imagine Ventura is laughing as would most people.

Joe did some amazing things for the Sox when he was here. That's enough for me to appreciate him - regardless of having to compare him to Robin.

I have to agree, and have for quite some time. Ozzie is a big mouthed idiot. Most of the time, he just talking to be heard. I only worry about what he does during the game or preparing for the game.

Thome25
02-23-2009, 11:06 AM
:bong:

Guillen is obviously smoking the Crede-bong. Don't get me wrong, all Sox fans will be forever grateful for Crede's clutch performances and great defense especially in the 2005 run. But, Ventura is the greatest 3B in White Sox history hands-down PERIOD.

If Crede had spent a few more years with us especially a few more injury-free years then we could mention him in the same breath or better than Ventura. But, as the way things are now........Ventura is the better player.

Thome25
02-23-2009, 11:08 AM
I can see that perspective and I think it's a terrible way to judge an individual player's merits over another. Paul O'Neill won 4 World Series titles; does that make him the best corner outfielder in the last 25 years? No.

The 2005 White Sox were the best team the Sox have fielded in my lifetime, but that doesn't mean every single part of that team was the best in Sox history.

Exactly. The whole of the 2005 team was greater than the sum of it's parts.

EDIT: As a side-note i think it's ironic that Crede's only two choices in FA were also his good buddy AJ Pierzyski's two former teams the Giants and Twinkies. I wonder if AJ has had anything to say about his friend Crede joining the team he grew up with. Has there been any quotes from AJ yet?

salty99
02-23-2009, 11:43 AM
Come on people don't you know Joe Crede was the greatest Sox player from 2005-2008, at least according to Phil Rogers.

oldcomiskey
02-23-2009, 11:46 AM
No suprise - He evaluates the talent of players that he's managing with similar accuracy.

dont get down on Ozzie too much--he is the ONLY manager in team HISTORY to bring his club in first TWICE

areilly
02-23-2009, 12:12 PM
dont get down on Ozzie too much--he is the ONLY manager in team HISTORY to bring his club in first TWICE

Gene Lamont.

Red Barchetta
02-23-2009, 05:20 PM
...what about "The Milkman"?! :D:

Brian26
02-23-2009, 10:03 PM
Nor the most precise in his statements. Taking Ozzie Guillen literally in every case is not a sign of wisdom. If you feel this is a time to take him literally, that's your choice.

If Ozzie Guillen were to ever be taken seriously on a topic, it seems like this would be the discussion. Yet, there are people who somehow defend Ozzie's irrational statements by implying there's some kind of calculated genius behind them. It's not like he's comparing Crede to some negro league third baseman from the 1930's that he never saw play, or making some trite comment on Venezuelan politics, or comparing the salad bar at Fogo de Chao to the one at the Pita Inn.

You'd expect that Guillen, immensely qualified to make a comparison after playing next to Ventura for eight years and managing Crede for five, could be "taken literally" at least this one time. Shame on the reader for being unwise.

jabrch
02-23-2009, 11:54 PM
If Ozzie Guillen were to ever be taken seriously on a topic, it seems like this would be the discussion. Yet, there are people who somehow defend Ozzie's irrational statements by implying there's some kind of calculated genius behind them. It's not like he's comparing Crede to some negro league third baseman from the 1930's that he never saw play, or making some trite comment on Venezuelan politics, or comparing the salad bar at Fogo de Chao to the one at the Pita Inn.

You'd expect that Guillen, immensely qualified to make a comparison after playing next to Ventura for eight years and managing Crede for five, could be "taken literally" at least this one time. Shame on the reader for being unwise.

Brian - Take him as literal as you desire. I look at him as a clown in uniform when he talks like that.

Doesn't it just seem too odd, even for Ozzie, to really believe this? From my perspective, either he is a complete idiot who shouldn't be taken seriously about anything, including what is the only thing he has ever known, or his yap doesn't stop and he doesn't really think out what he says. My guess - the latter.

As you said, he played next to Robin for 8, and watched Joe for 5. Do you really think that he thinks that Joe was a better baseball player for the sox, if we are defining it using any criteria that we'd find acceptable to compare two players?

Me personally - I pay as much attention to this stuff as I do to Terry Bevington arguing fair and foul with himself. Again - your choice.

hawkjt
02-24-2009, 03:49 AM
I think you might be able to say that Joe, at his peak, might have been a hair better fielder than Robin...would that be wrong to say? But clearly, overall career nod goes to Robin.

oldcomiskey
02-24-2009, 09:36 AM
Gene Lamont.

Lamont didnt bring the club in first TWICE

doublem23
02-24-2009, 09:42 AM
Lamont didnt bring the club in first TWICE

1993 (http://www.baseball-reference.com/leagues/AL_1993.shtml), 1994 (http://www.baseball-reference.com/leagues/AL_1994.shtml)

Of course, the technicality is that the 1994 Sox don't get credit for a division championship, but hey, they finished in 1st place twice under Lamont.

The Critic
02-24-2009, 09:43 AM
Lamont didnt bring the club in first TWICE
'93 and '94.
The Sox were a game ahead of Cleveland when the season was halted.
Technically they won the division.

oldcomiskey
02-24-2009, 09:50 AM
'93 and '94.
The Sox were a game ahead of Cleveland when the season was halted.
Technically they won the division.

alright if you want to be technical--Ozzie is the only manager to bring his club to the post season twice

35th&Shields
02-24-2009, 10:01 AM
Crede was an excellent third baseman when he was healthy and productive. Robin, simply, was better.

Robin was the best third baseman I've ever seen with my own two eyes playing live. Many consider Ventura to be one of the best, if not the best, college baseball player of all time.

oldcomiskey
02-25-2009, 10:40 AM
Robin was the best third baseman I've ever seen with my own two eyes playing live. Many consider Ventura to be one of the best, if not the best, college baseball player of all time.

I remember Robin couldnt hit water if he fell out of a boat when he first got to the majors. Cudos to Jeff Torborg for staying with him

oldcomiskey
02-25-2009, 10:41 AM
...what about "The Milkman"?! :D:

Milk was my dad's favorite player on that 2000 sox team. He came up with a lot of clutch hits

voodoochile
02-25-2009, 11:11 AM
'93 and '94.
The Sox were a game ahead of Cleveland when the season was halted.
Technically they won the division.

No division championships were awarded in 1994.

4 points
02-26-2009, 07:29 AM
I'm surprised this hasn't been mentioned here. I almost fell out of my chair when I read this in the morning paper. Guillen thinks Crede is the best third baseman in Sox history, not Ventura.

http://www.chicagotribune.com/sports/baseball/whitesox/chi-22-white-sox-bits-chicagofeb22,0,266986.story

The line of reasoning on Guillen's part is idiotic, especially since he's probably the best-suited person on the planet, other than maybe Ken Harrelson, to make a comparison between the two players.

Not only did Ventura have all-around better offensive and defensive stats, including five Gold Gloves, but he had a longer productive tenure with the Sox.



With Guillen's line of reasoning, Juan Uribe is the best shortstop in Sox history (not Luis Aparicio or Luke Appling) because he helped them win a World Series. And don't blame Ron Schueler because he didn't acquire any bullpen help in '96 or pull the trigger on the Bob Welch trade in 1991 or because the Sox were unlucky enough to run into a buzzsaw in the Toronto Blue Jays in '93. That's apparently all Ventura's fault.

Typical Ozzie.

Hawk isn`t qualified either, lets never forget the " Brooks Robinson hasn`t got a thing over Joe Crede defensively" remark. Other than that, I agree with your post completely.:gulp:

4 points
02-26-2009, 07:33 AM
Better yet, where's the love for "Beltin' " Bill Melton ?? :D:

Melton was better than Crede to.

4 points
02-26-2009, 07:35 AM
I can see that perspective and I think it's a terrible way to judge an individual player's merits over another. Paul O'Neill won 4 World Series titles; does that make him the best corner outfielder in the last 25 years? No.

The 2005 White Sox were the best team the Sox have fielded in my lifetime, but that doesn't mean every single part of that team was the best in Sox history.

Careful there Boyo, remember the 11th commandment " Thou shalt not post logical assessments on this message board:.:scratch:

4 points
02-26-2009, 07:37 AM
I take offense at your belittlement of the achievements of one Herbert Edward Perry, Jr.

We also could be talking about Bobby Bonilla, but thats a song to sad to sing.:gulp: