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DirtySox
02-18-2009, 06:33 PM
Heyman (http://sportsillustrated.cnn.com/2009/writers/jon_heyman/02/18/winter.winners/index.html) sorts teams by winners and losers.

White Sox were on the winner side at number 10 (Cubs were 11). Heyman says KW did well in unloading Vasquez and Swish before the market fell out.

Sargeant79
02-18-2009, 07:43 PM
Heyman (http://sportsillustrated.cnn.com/2009/writers/jon_heyman/02/18/winter.winners/index.html) sorts teams by winners and losers.

White Sox were on the winner side at number 10 (Cubs were 11). Heyman says KW did well in unloading Vasquez and Swish before the market fell out.

I give Heyman a lot of credit for not underestimating the significance of that. I said something similar in another thread, and I'll restate it here:

Kenny Williams acquired a guy who may be a valuable piece to the infield as long as he is used in his intended utility role, plus two young, cheap pitchers who may factor into the 2009 pitching staff for a guy who hit .219 last year. He also aquired a top catching prospect, two A-ball prospects, and a fast youngster who may see significant time on the major league roster this year in exchange for a back of the rotation starter paid like a #2 starter. And the best part is that he acquired all this talent in exchange for the priviledge of not having to pay tens of millions of dollars for several years to these two guys who most of the fan base wanted gone.

Players like Bobby Abreu are signing contracts in this market for less money than Nick Swisher will make this year. Unloading 100% of the salary commitment to Swisher and Vazquez was nothing short of remarkable. Just goes to show you how important timing can be.

palehozenychicty
02-18-2009, 08:00 PM
I give Heyman a lot of credit for not underestimating the significance of that. I said something similar in another thread, and I'll restate it here:

Kenny Williams acquired a guy who may be a valuable piece to the infield as long as he is used in his intended utility role, plus two young, cheap pitchers who may factor into the 2009 pitching staff for a guy who hit .219 last year. He also aquired a top catching prospect, two A-ball prospects, and a fast youngster who may see significant time on the major league roster this year in exchange for a back of the rotation starter paid like a #2 starter. And the best part is that he acquired all this talent in exchange for the priviledge of not having to pay tens of millions of dollars for several years to these two guys who most of the fan base wanted gone.

Players like Bobby Abreu are signing contracts in this market for less money than Nick Swisher will make this year. Unloading 100% of the salary commitment to Swisher and Vazquez was nothing short of remarkable. Just goes to show you how important timing can be.


This whole post is just right. I think people would be pissed if we had to stand pat with Swisher and Vazquez still here, whether they want to admit it or not.

Tragg
02-18-2009, 08:27 PM
I give Heyman a lot of credit for not underestimating the significance of that. I said something similar in another thread, and I'll restate it here:

Kenny Williams acquired a guy who may be a valuable piece to the infield as long as he is used in his intended utility role, plus two young, cheap pitchers who may factor into the 2009 pitching staff for a guy who hit .219 last year.
For a guy who hit .219 and a promising pitcher (in the sense that the 2 he acquired are promising).

Few were angry with either of those trades. The Swisher trade made people feel bad because it brought home how poor the trade acquiring Swisher was. But can't recoup that.

Sargeant79
02-18-2009, 10:12 PM
For a guy who hit .219 and a promising pitcher (in the sense that the 2 he acquired are promising).

Few were angry with either of those trades. The Swisher trade made people feel bad because it brought home how poor the trade acquiring Swisher was. But can't recoup that.

You're absolutely right about this part...in hindsight, acquiring Swisher was not a good trade. Not that any of the guys the Sox gave up had great years last year, but it was not maximum value for some of our organization's most valuable prospects. ANd I'll admit that at the time, I thought it was a heavy price to pay but Swisher would turn out to be worth it (oops).

It's a drastically different economic climate now compared with this time last year...and that affects how you have to look at the return on both deals.

Bucky F. Dent
02-19-2009, 07:01 AM
I give Heyman a lot of credit for not underestimating the significance of that. I said something similar in another thread, and I'll restate it here:

Kenny Williams acquired a guy who may be a valuable piece to the infield as long as he is used in his intended utility role, plus two young, cheap pitchers who may factor into the 2009 pitching staff for a guy who hit .219 last year. He also aquired a top catching prospect, two A-ball prospects, and a fast youngster who may see significant time on the major league roster this year in exchange for a back of the rotation starter paid like a #2 starter. And the best part is that he acquired all this talent in exchange for the priviledge of not having to pay tens of millions of dollars for several years to these two guys who most of the fan base wanted gone.

Players like Bobby Abreu are signing contracts in this market for less money than Nick Swisher will make this year. Unloading 100% of the salary commitment to Swisher and Vazquez was nothing short of remarkable. Just goes to show you how important timing can be.

Post of the off-season.

jabrch
02-19-2009, 12:11 PM
I give Heyman a lot of credit for not underestimating the significance of that. I said something similar in another thread, and I'll restate it here:

Kenny Williams acquired a guy who may be a valuable piece to the infield as long as he is used in his intended utility role, plus two young, cheap pitchers who may factor into the 2009 pitching staff for a guy who hit .219 last year. He also aquired a top catching prospect, two A-ball prospects, and a fast youngster who may see significant time on the major league roster this year in exchange for a back of the rotation starter paid like a #2 starter. And the best part is that he acquired all this talent in exchange for the priviledge of not having to pay tens of millions of dollars for several years to these two guys who most of the fan base wanted gone.

Players like Bobby Abreu are signing contracts in this market for less money than Nick Swisher will make this year. Unloading 100% of the salary commitment to Swisher and Vazquez was nothing short of remarkable. Just goes to show you how important timing can be.


Great Post Sarg...Well said.

munchman33
02-19-2009, 01:37 PM
I give Heyman a lot of credit for not underestimating the significance of that. I said something similar in another thread, and I'll restate it here:

Kenny Williams acquired a guy who may be a valuable piece to the infield as long as he is used in his intended utility role, plus two young, cheap pitchers who may factor into the 2009 pitching staff for a guy who hit .219 last year. He also aquired a top catching prospect, two A-ball prospects, and a fast youngster who may see significant time on the major league roster this year in exchange for a back of the rotation starter paid like a #2 starter. And the best part is that he acquired all this talent in exchange for the priviledge of not having to pay tens of millions of dollars for several years to these two guys who most of the fan base wanted gone.

Players like Bobby Abreu are signing contracts in this market for less money than Nick Swisher will make this year. Unloading 100% of the salary commitment to Swisher and Vazquez was nothing short of remarkable. Just goes to show you how important timing can be.

I also move to nominate this as POTW. Mods can we please start updating that again? I liked that feature.

khan
02-20-2009, 10:16 AM
Call me crazy, but from a competition standpoint, I'd rather have that choker Javy Vazquez in the rotation than Marquez/Broadway/Richard. For 2009, anyway.

I'd rather have the prospects that were given away to Oakland for Nick Swisher. If for no other reason than to have these prospects to use in trade for a better player than Nick Swisher. I do agree that dumping Swisher's salary was a good thing.

But when considering the wages, sure: These were good deals for the SOX's future. I certainly didn't think the FA market would drop this much this fast.

Sargeant79
02-20-2009, 11:09 AM
Call me crazy, but from a competition standpoint, I'd rather have that choker Javy Vazquez in the rotation than Marquez/Broadway/Richard. For 2009, anyway.

Maybe. I'll admit I'm nervous about where his innings are going to come from.

I'd rather have the prospects that were given away to Oakland for Nick Swisher. If for no other reason than to have these prospects to use in trade for a better player than Nick Swisher. I do agree that dumping Swisher's salary was a good thing.

Yep.

But when considering the wages, sure: These were good deals for the SOX's future. I certainly didn't think the FA market would drop this much this fast.

You can't evaluate any moves without taking salary into consideration unless your team is the Yankees. And actually, these were good deals for this year. Presumably, Kenny Williams was charged with reducing payroll this offseason. Therefore, someone needed to go. These were the best choices...as I said earlier, he actually acquired talent (albeit unproven talent) in exchange for not having to pay anything to these guys. The alternative would have been trading away players who would have actually been missed.

russ99
02-20-2009, 03:05 PM
I give Heyman a lot of credit for not underestimating the significance of that. I said something similar in another thread, and I'll restate it here:

Kenny Williams acquired a guy who may be a valuable piece to the infield as long as he is used in his intended utility role, plus two young, cheap pitchers who may factor into the 2009 pitching staff for a guy who hit .219 last year. He also aquired a top catching prospect, two A-ball prospects, and a fast youngster who may see significant time on the major league roster this year in exchange for a back of the rotation starter paid like a #2 starter. And the best part is that he acquired all this talent in exchange for the priviledge of not having to pay tens of millions of dollars for several years to these two guys who most of the fan base wanted gone.

Players like Bobby Abreu are signing contracts in this market for less money than Nick Swisher will make this year. Unloading 100% of the salary commitment to Swisher and Vazquez was nothing short of remarkable. Just goes to show you how important timing can be.

Well put, but there's only one drawback about what Kenny did...

Other than Lillibridge and Betemit, (who are questionable to even make the club this season) he got all Class A guys who won't see the Bigs for 1-3 years, and who knows how that will pan out. Do we really expect Marquez and Nunez to play a role on the 2009 Sox?

Had Kenny gotten more major league-ready guys, like one of the Braves many blue-chip pitching prospects and a CF like Brett Gardner (we would have obviously had to throw in a prospect ourselves) in those deals, I'd have given him an A.

Right now, I'll go with an incomplete C+. Good timing to ditch that salary for a good (potentially great) return, but not good in terms of how that set us up for 2009 and the first half of 2010.

So let's see what these players we got back turn into, before patting Kenny on the back.