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View Full Version : Cleveland Plain Dealer AL Central Predictions (Surprising)


WhiteSoxFan84
02-10-2009, 01:45 AM
Link to Article (http://www.cleveland.com/tribe/index.ssf/2009/02/al_central_spring_prospectus_b.html)

Maybe we can't use the "no respect!" angle after all? :smile:

WhiteSox5187
02-10-2009, 01:59 AM
Well, I certainly don't think Minnesota is going to be as good as they were last year (didn't they hit like .310 with RISP? That's just a fluke), but I don't think the Indians are going to be finishing third either.

DaveFeelsRight
02-10-2009, 02:10 AM
this made me laugh

"Way to start off the predictions with a bang! Tribe to finish third? I see the Indians at the top of this division beating the Twins by a slight margin. Sox and Tigers are showing age and don't have the pitching. Royals are a AAA team at best. Indians improved bullpen and a trade deadline deal for another starter puts them over the top. Plus Indians get some big league help from the farm from either Laporta or Brantley due to injuries."

whitesox901
02-10-2009, 02:11 AM
Ohio media is always generous to the White Sox it seems, going into 2006 when it was assumed that Chicago and Cleveland were going to dog fight it all summer long, the Toledo Blade released its predictions and had the Sox at 100+ wins and winning the division by like 8 or 9.

EDIT: I just remembered when the Blade did an article on Wrigley Field and every picture for that article (there was like 3 or 4) was of U.S. Cellular Field, I tried looking it up online that morning and was going to post a link on it here, but could not find it.

jabrch
02-10-2009, 10:36 AM
this made me laugh

"Way to start off the predictions with a bang! Tribe to finish third? I see the Indians at the top of this division beating the Twins by a slight margin. Sox and Tigers are showing age and don't have the pitching.


The Sox pitching is no worse than the Indians pitching. The Sox Qs are #4 and #5. Cleveland's answer - Jeremy Sowers and Carl Pavano? The Sox #3 is Gavin - Cleveland has...Anthony Reyes? #2s are Danks and Carmona - who knows how healthy Fausto is? Which leaves us with Cleveland's only good starter - Cliff Lee. Cliff Lee 2008 is awesome. Cliff Lee 2005 is pretty good. The rest of Cliff Lee is worse than MB.

As far as bullpens go - they surely can't boast of their quality pen.

If you are putting the Indians at the top, and using the Sox pitching as an explanation, I think you are way off.

munchman33
02-10-2009, 11:02 AM
The Sox pitching is no worse than the Indians pitching. The Sox Qs are #4 and #5. Cleveland's answer - Jeremy Sowers and Carl Pavano? The Sox #3 is Gavin - Cleveland has...Anthony Reyes? #2s are Danks and Carmona - who knows how healthy Fausto is? Which leaves us with Cleveland's only good starter - Cliff Lee. Cliff Lee 2008 is awesome. Cliff Lee 2005 is pretty good. The rest of Cliff Lee is worse than MB.

As far as bullpens go - they surely can't boast of their quality pen.

If you are putting the Indians at the top, and using the Sox pitching as an explanation, I think you are way off.

Jeremy Sowers and Anthony Reyes would push Colon and everyone else out of the rotation if they were here.

cws05champ
02-10-2009, 11:11 AM
The Sox pitching is no worse than the Indians pitching. The Sox Qs are #4 and #5. Cleveland's answer - Jeremy Sowers and Carl Pavano? The Sox #3 is Gavin - Cleveland has...Anthony Reyes? #2s are Danks and Carmona - who knows how healthy Fausto is? Which leaves us with Cleveland's only good starter - Cliff Lee. Cliff Lee 2008 is awesome. Cliff Lee 2005 is pretty good. The rest of Cliff Lee is worse than MB.

As far as bullpens go - they surely can't boast of their quality pen.

If you are putting the Indians at the top, and using the Sox pitching as an explanation, I think you are way off.
Are you kidding me? They arguably have improved this part of their team the most. I think it's the best BP top to bottom in the division:
Wood, Bentancourt, Lewis, Joe Smith, Rafael Perez, Kobayashi, possibly Adam Miller.

soltrain21
02-10-2009, 11:14 AM
Well, I certainly don't think Minnesota is going to be as good as they were last year (didn't they hit like .310 with RISP? That's just a fluke), but I don't think the Indians are going to be finishing third either.

When the hell is this going to stop being said?

oeo
02-10-2009, 11:15 AM
Jeremy Sowers and Anthony Reyes would push Colon and everyone else out of the rotation if they were here.

Second thread you posted this in, and I still hope you're kidding. Neither of those guys have shown anything. Sowers has been ****ing terrible since he was brought up.

spawn
02-10-2009, 11:21 AM
Second thread you posted this in, and I still hope you're kidding. Neither of those guys have shown anything. Sowers has been ****ing terrible since he was brought up.
Dude, consider the source. How often is he right about anything around here?:redneck

munchman33
02-10-2009, 11:27 AM
Second thread you posted this in, and I still hope you're kidding. Neither of those guys have shown anything. Sowers has been ****ing terrible since he was brought up.

No, he really hasn't. He's been bad in spots.

Dude, consider the source. How often is he right about anything around here?:redneck

A hell of a lot more than you.

doublem23
02-10-2009, 11:34 AM
Jeremy Sowers? Really?

http://www.baseball-reference.com/s/sowerje01.shtml

Just because he might be able to beat out any of the guys vying for the back of our rotation, he still sucks.

spawn
02-10-2009, 11:35 AM
A hell of a lot more than you.
As always, you are correct! :rolling:

jabrch
02-10-2009, 11:44 AM
Are you kidding me? They arguably have improved this part of their team the most. I think it's the best BP top to bottom in the division:
Wood, Bentancourt, Lewis, Joe Smith, Rafael Perez, Kobayashi, possibly Adam Miller.


That's a weak bullpen.

jabrch
02-10-2009, 11:46 AM
Second thread you posted this in, and I still hope you're kidding. Neither of those guys have shown anything. Sowers has been ****ing terrible since he was brought up.


Just ignore stupid crap like this.

I imagine Sowers wouldn't be our 5th starter. He wouldn't even be in our top 7.

jabrch
02-10-2009, 11:47 AM
Jeremy Sowers? Really?

http://www.baseball-reference.com/s/sowerje01.shtml

Just because he might be able to beat out any of the guys vying for the back of our rotation, he still sucks.


I don't believe he could not beat out anyone.

asindc
02-10-2009, 12:08 PM
Jeremy Sowers and Anthony Reyes would push Colon and everyone else out of the rotation if they were here.

Colon, when healthy, pitched better than Sowers last year, to make the most direct comparison. The big question with Colon is health. He has proven that he can still effectively pitch. Sowers has yet to prove such.

doublem23
02-10-2009, 12:20 PM
I don't believe he could not beat out anyone.

Based on what? He's no more or less ****ty than the crap we're already throwing at the wall.

TDog
02-10-2009, 12:37 PM
Ohio media is always generous to the White Sox it seems, going into 2006 when it was assumed that Chicago and Cleveland were going to dog fight it all summer long, the Toledo Blade released its predictions and had the Sox at 100+ wins and winning the division by like 8 or 9.

EDIT: I just remembered when the Blade did an article on Wrigley Field and every picture for that article (there was like 3 or 4) was of U.S. Cellular Field, I tried looking it up online that morning and was going to post a link on it here, but could not find it.

This weekend, I was reading a stack of Ohio newspaper special sports sections from 2008. There was a baseball preview section that made me laugh. The Indians preview professed that the Tribe plays in what may be the toughest division in baseball. But it noted that Cleveland fans could be optimistic because the Twins would be down after losing Santana and "the White Sox were aweful in 2007." It was like they were lamenting, "If the Indians could just finish ahead of the Tigers ...."

Although one of the staff writers did the White Sox to win the AL wild card, the writers picked either the Tigers or Indians to finish first in the Central. The Tigers and Cubs were popular picks to win the World Series.

It is silly enough to care about baseball predictions. It is sillier still to get excited over them.

Eddo144
02-10-2009, 12:49 PM
This weekend, I was reading a stack of Ohio newspaper special sports sections from 2008. There was a baseball preview section that made me laugh. The Indians preview professed that the Tribe plays in what may be the toughest division in baseball. But it noted that Cleveland fans could be optimistic because the Twins would be down after losing Santana and "the White Sox were aweful in 2007." It was like they were lamenting, "If the Indians could just finish ahead of the Tigers ...."
How is that out of line with what the vast majority of writers and fans were saying? It was expected that the Twins would have a drop off after losing Santana. And the White Sox were pretty awful in 2007. What's your point?

ChiSoxFan81
02-10-2009, 12:55 PM
the White Sox were aweful in 2007 .
Really? Wow, I don't think they were that impressed with the Indians. :redneck

Iwritecode
02-10-2009, 12:56 PM
No, he really hasn't. He's been bad in spots.


You mean like the #4 spot or the #5 spot in the rotation?

goon
02-10-2009, 01:03 PM
No, he really hasn't. He's been bad in spots.


That's such a ridiculous statement. He had a few games where he pitched okay... that's any major league pitcher ever, that's not proof of anything.

champagne030
02-10-2009, 01:21 PM
That's a weak bullpen.

Just ignore stupid crap like this.

I imagine Sowers wouldn't be our 5th starter. He wouldn't even be in our top 7.

I don't believe he could not beat out anyone.

I imagine you cannot even type this complete and utter bull**** with a straight face.

munchman33
02-10-2009, 01:23 PM
That's such a ridiculous statement. He had a few games where he pitched okay... that's any major league pitcher ever, that's not proof of anything.

Well, I could say the pitches he throws, but since most people here don't know what he throws, how well he throws it, and automatically dismiss things because they don't know but don't want to be wrong, what do you suggest I say? That he's not going to break out this year? Because I don't believe that's the truth.

munchman33
02-10-2009, 01:24 PM
I don't believe he could not beat out anyone.

Based on what? His production last year? Got anything else? Any real insight into the situation? Or are you just being stubborn?

Seriously, discounting Sowers sounds foolish. Most scouts think the kids going to be really good. You don't know better than they do, especially not with your "analysis" being based off looking at a stat sheet from one season.

TDog
02-10-2009, 01:30 PM
How is that out of line with what the vast majority of writers and fans were saying? It was expected that the Twins would have a drop off after losing Santana. And the White Sox were pretty awful in 2007. What's your point?

In fact, I was expecting the Tigers to have a losing season in 2008 and posted as much last March, although I didn't post any "predictions." But the fact that the vast majority of writers and fans were saying the Tigers would be great doesn't make predictions that the Tigers would win he 2008 World Series any less worthless.

My point is, all baseball predictions, including the inspiration for this thread, are worthless.

Craig Grebeck
02-10-2009, 01:33 PM
That's a weak bullpen.
Laughable. It's a hell of a lot better than ours.

munchman33
02-10-2009, 01:34 PM
In fact, I was expecting the Tigers to have a losing season in 2008 and posted as much last March, although I didn't post any "predictions." But the fact that the vast majority of writers and fans were saying the Tigers would be great doesn't make predictions that the Tigers would win he 2008 World Series any less worthless.

My point is, all baseball predictions, including the inspiration for this thread, are worthless.

Kudos to you, I don't think anyone saw that coming.

munchman33
02-10-2009, 01:34 PM
Laughable. It's a hell of a lot better than ours.

I'd call it a wash at this point. They have a huge health concern at the back end.

doublem23
02-10-2009, 01:40 PM
Laughable. It's a hell of a lot better than ours.

I don't even see how you can make that remark when there's a couple of spots in our bullpen that are completely up for grabs.

munchman33
02-10-2009, 01:49 PM
I don't even see how you can make that remark when there's a couple of spots in our bullpen that are completely up for grabs.

Um...didn't you just prove his point?

Craig Grebeck
02-10-2009, 01:52 PM
I don't even see how you can make that remark when there's a couple of spots in our bullpen that are completely up for grabs.
That's what I'm getting at.

jabrch
02-10-2009, 02:27 PM
Based on what? He's no more or less ****ty than the crap we're already throwing at the wall.


Sowers has proven himself to be crappy. He may improve - that's possible - but he has not done so yet. Just watch him pitch. (I know some people say they don't need to see him pitch, or that watching a guy pitch isn't as good as reading what he did. But that's crap.) Combine what you see with what you read - and Jeremy Sowers isn't a starter in a MLB rotation today in my eyes. I'm sure many who know more about the game than me have their opinions too. I wouldn't want Sowers in the Sox rotation.

Our guys may end up sucking. Sowers has a much better chance of doing so - as he already has.

Would you put him in our rotation and expect nobody to complain that he is a black hole? If he were our 4th or 5th, they'd be rioting in the streets.

doublem23
02-10-2009, 03:09 PM
Um...didn't you just prove his point?

That's what I'm getting at.

Yeah, but bullpen pitchers are so volitale, it's not neccessarily a bad thing if you don't have each and every spot penciled in before camp is even broken. Plus, there undecided things with our pitchers in general, just because a bullpen spot hasn't been settled yet, doesn't mean that's a bad thing. If the Sox decide to use Clayton Richard as the 2nd lefty out of the pen, I think he'll succeed there. If they choose to put him in the starting rotation, that will hurt the pen.

I would hope by now most people understand that a team's bullepn is more or less completely unpredictable by now. Guys have career years. Guys implode. I think the fact that the Sox have the 9th, 8th, and 7th innings lined up, plus a LOOGY and a couple canidates to be long-term and right-handed pitchers is a testament to the bullpen's strength. Very few teams come into Spring Training with so many slots already basically filled.

Now that said, who exactly does Cleveland have? Wood, Jensen, Betancourt, and who else? Let's not pretend like they'll be trotting out a collection of All-Star relievers. They have just as many question marks in their bullpen as we do.

Craig Grebeck
02-10-2009, 03:10 PM
Yeah, but bullpen pitchers are so volitale, it's not neccessarily a bad thing if you don't have each and every spot penciled in before camp is even broken. Plus, there are so many things up for grabs with our pitchers, just because a bullpen spot hasn't been settled yet, doesn't mean that's a bad thing. If the Sox decide to use Clayton Richard as the 2nd lefty out of the pen, I think he'll succeed there. If they choose to put him in the starting rotation, that will hurt the pen.

I would hope by now most people understand that a team's bullepn is more or less completely unpredictable by now. Guys have career years. Guys implode. I think the fact that the Sox have the 9th, 8th, and 7th innings lined up pretty well is a testament to our bullpen's strength.

Now that said, who exactly does Cleveland have? Wood, Jensen, Betancourt, and who else? Let's not pretend like they'll be trotting out a collection of All-Star relievers. They have just as many question marks in their bullpen as we do.
Joe Smith, Rafael Perez, etc.

doublem23
02-10-2009, 03:16 PM
Sowers has proven himself to be crappy. He may improve - that's possible - but he has not done so yet. Just watch him pitch. (I know some people say they don't need to see him pitch, or that watching a guy pitch isn't as good as reading what he did. But that's crap.) Combine what you see with what you read - and Jeremy Sowers isn't a starter in a MLB rotation today in my eyes. I'm sure many who know more about the game than me have their opinions too. I wouldn't want Sowers in the Sox rotation.

Our guys may end up sucking. Sowers has a much better chance of doing so - as he already has.

Would you put him in our rotation and expect nobody to complain that he is a black hole? If he were our 4th or 5th, they'd be rioting in the streets.

I think you're seriously overrating the guys we have that are trying to fill that 5th spot. Does Sowers totally suck? Yes. Does that mean he's worse than Marquez, Richard, Broadway, or Poreda? Probably not.

jabrch
02-10-2009, 03:33 PM
I think you're seriously overrating the guys we have that are trying to fill that 5th spot. Does Sowers totally suck? Yes. Does that mean he's worse than Marquez, Richard, Broadway, or Poreda? Probably not.

I have no idea...but I have watched Sowers suck - from up close. We have multiple years of data of him sucking. He's just very hittable.

I have no idea how good or bad those others are or will be. But I have a good idea, based on what we last saw from Sowers, of what he is. Now if something clicked in the offseason - then I will be wrong. But I'm going on the assumption that Sowers 2009 is not exponentially better than Sowers 2008.

Dubs - you've seen Sowers a few times - right? Would you be happier if he was in our rotation than if we were planning on Colon?

doublem23
02-10-2009, 03:37 PM
Dubs - you've seen Sowers a few times - right? Would you be happier if he was in our rotation than if we were planning on Colon?

Any rotation that is counting on big innings from Sowers or Colon is, IMO, likely doomed to fail.

turners56
02-10-2009, 03:55 PM
I think the Indians are probably better than a third place team if they stay healthy. If everything goes their way, they can win 90+ games. Same thing can happen to us and the Twins as well.

whitesox901
02-10-2009, 04:14 PM
That's a weak bullpen.

second

goon
02-10-2009, 05:33 PM
Well, I could say the pitches he throws, but since most people here don't know what he throws, how well he throws it, and automatically dismiss things because they don't know but don't want to be wrong, what do you suggest I say? That he's not going to break out this year? Because I don't believe that's the truth.


Who the hell knows if he's going to breakout this season or not? Do you want him to have a breakout season because it kind of seems like it.


Plenty of people on this board know about Sowers, he pitches in our division how could we not know about him? Honestly though, what makes you think he can push a guy like Colon or a guy like Richard out of our rotation? Talent and Execution are two entirely different elements and Sowers still hasn't learned to pitch in this league, that's a fact. I don't really care how talented he is... until he DOES it we don't know if he can.

I know Bartolo Colon can do it, Richard hasn't been any worse in this league then Sowers, so what's your point? If you want to base your opinions on something, why don't you research the past rather than try to predict the future.

This all goes for Anthony Reyes too.

munchman33
02-10-2009, 08:53 PM
Who the hell knows if he's going to breakout this season or not? Do you want him to have a breakout season because it kind of seems like it.


Plenty of people on this board know about Sowers, he pitches in our division how could we not know about him? Honestly though, what makes you think he can push a guy like Colon or a guy like Richard out of our rotation? Talent and Execution are two entirely different elements and Sowers still hasn't learned to pitch in this league, that's a fact. I don't really care how talented he is... until he DOES it we don't know if he can.

I know Bartolo Colon can do it, Richard hasn't been any worse in this league then Sowers, so what's your point? If you want to base your opinions on something, why don't you research the past rather than try to predict the future.

This all goes for Anthony Reyes too.

Well here's the thing.

None of them are a sure thing. And Colon has serious injury questions. Based on talent (and nothing else) Sowers and Reyes would be 4 and 5 in our rotation. Granted, I think Colon is going to have a good year (provided he brings more to the table than he even showed last year). But talentwise, those two were showing a lot more last year, when none of these guy were really that good (don't forget Bartolo was sent to the pen because his stuff wasn't there).

rdivaldi
02-10-2009, 09:58 PM
I can understand a little love for Sowers, but Reyes? Soft tossing righties with average control don't last in the majors for long. St. Louis got rid of him for a reason.

champagne030
02-10-2009, 10:21 PM
I can understand a little love for Sowers, but Reyes? Soft tossing righties with average control don't last in the majors for long. St. Louis got rid of him for a reason.

Huh? He's not soft tossing. Duncan wanted to make him into a sinker/change guy and Anthony wanted to refine his power stuff. He hits the mid 90's and if he learns a cutter he'll be awesome until his arm blows out.

Edit: I think you have the wrong Reyes in mind.

rdivaldi
02-10-2009, 10:30 PM
Huh? He's not soft tossing. Duncan wanted to make him into a sinker/change guy and Anthony wanted to refine his power stuff. He hits the mid 90's and if he learns a cutter he'll be awesome until his arm blows out.

Edit: I think you have the wrong Reyes in mind.

Anthony Reyes, the kid from the Cardinals. Granted I've only seen him pitch a handful of times, but he was in the high 80's low 90's each time. I'm reading scouting reports on him right now, they are agreeing with you. I'll have to scrounge up some video and take a look.

WhiteSoxFan84
02-11-2009, 12:06 AM
You guys are arguing about Jeremy Sowers? Man, now I KNOW we desperately need a game to be played!

As for the bullpen debate, I don't mean to sound like a downer, but our bullpen has legit chance of being pretty atrocious. :(:

rdivaldi
02-11-2009, 08:25 PM
As for the bullpen debate, I don't mean to sound like a downer, but our bullpen has legit chance of being pretty atrocious. :(:

Actually the bullpen is the one thing I have zero worries about. I think we have one of the best in the AL. Uh oh....

BadBobbyJenks
02-11-2009, 08:45 PM
Why are people so worried about the bullpen?

Jenks
Thornton
Linebrink
Dotel
Four sure things and then:
Poreda?
Carrasco?
Russel?

Indians have Wood, Perez and what else? Betancourt who imploded last year, Kobayashi? Jensen Lewis?