PDA

View Full Version : A-Rod tested positive for steroids in 2003...


Pages : [1] 2

wsoxfan
02-07-2009, 09:37 AM
Just came across this on sports illustrated and saw no one posted it yet. Discuss.

A-Rod tested positive for steroids in 2003... (http://sportsillustrated.cnn.com/2009/baseball/mlb/02/07/alex-rodriguez-steroids/index.html?eref=T1)

kevingrt
02-07-2009, 09:42 AM
Biggest name of all. This should be interesting.

Gremlin3
02-07-2009, 10:08 AM
Not really surprising, but disappointing

illini81887
02-07-2009, 10:11 AM
A-fraud

nug0hs
02-07-2009, 10:15 AM
Only a matter of time before we find even more surprises in this topic

Madvora
02-07-2009, 10:15 AM
What a corrupt, dirty, lying organization MLB really is.

voodoochile
02-07-2009, 10:25 AM
:hurt
"When I was young
I never needed anything
And playing ball was for a ring
Those days are gone
Livin alone
I think of all the cheats Ive known
When I call to say there's something wrong
Nobodys home

All by myself
I'm gonna be
All by myself
free and clean

Hard to be sure
But they're all so insecure
And MVP's are so obscure
Needles the cure

All by myself
I'm gonna be
All by myself
free and clean
All by myself
I'm gonna live
All by myself
Free and clean

When I was young
I never needed anything
Playing ball was for a ring
Those days are gone

All by myself
I'm gonna be
All by myself
Free and clean
All by myself
I'm gonna live
Oh
I'm gonna live
By myself, by myself
free and clean
By myself
Free and clean
Oh
All by myself
I'm gonna live
I never, never, never
Needed anything"

doublem23
02-07-2009, 10:28 AM
Jose Canseco hits the bulls-eye again.

pythons007
02-07-2009, 10:31 AM
I think the name A-Fraud means so much more now from Torre's book. However, since this happened in 2003 I do not believe he will be penalized because there was no drug policy in place. Does anyone have any information on if he will be penalized? Not to mention 104 others tested positive!?!?! That's a crap ton of players!

Fenway
02-07-2009, 10:36 AM
What a corrupt, dirty, lying organization MLB really is.

I loved the part that the PA was warning players that they would be tested.

More names will surface now. I have my own suspicions about David Ortiz as since MLB put new testing in effect his power has dropped. Just my suggesting that shows the problem MLB has..everybody is now assumed to be guilty unless proven otherwise.

Shoeless
02-07-2009, 10:38 AM
Score one for Frank Thomas!

voodoochile
02-07-2009, 10:40 AM
I think the name A-Fraud means so much more now from Torre's book. However, since this happened in 2003 I do not believe he will be penalized because there was no drug policy in place. Does anyone have any information on if he will be penalized? Not to mention 104 others tested positive!?!?! That's a crap ton of players!

Not by baseball, but the feds might take some action. None of these drugs are approved for use in the USA.

aryzner
02-07-2009, 10:44 AM
The 104 number leads me to wonder whether or not there are any current White Sox on that list. I like to think that none of them are. If this has already been mentioned in other threads or something, then I missed it.

DumpJerry
02-07-2009, 10:48 AM
They're ripping ESPN a new one on The Score. All of their (ESPN's) heroes are 'roiders.

pythons007
02-07-2009, 10:49 AM
The 104 number leads me to wonder whether or not there are any current White Sox on that list. I like to think that none of them are. If this has already been mentioned in other threads or something, then I missed it.

Aren't there just under 800 players in all of MLB (not including the minors)? So doesn't that come out to 1 in every 8 players? So its very unlikly that there aren't players on each team that have tested positive. Just very disturbing to me that high of a number of players.

munchman33
02-07-2009, 10:51 AM
:hurt
"When I was young
I never needed anything
And playing ball was for a ring
Those days are gone
Livin alone
I think of all the cheats Ive known
When I call to say there's something wrong
Nobodys home

All by myself
I'm gonna be
All by myself
free and clean

Hard to be sure
But they're all so insecure
And MVP's are so obscure
Needles the cure

All by myself
I'm gonna be
All by myself
free and clean
All by myself
I'm gonna live
All by myself
Free and clean

When I was young
I never needed anything
Playing ball was for a ring
Those days are gone

All by myself
I'm gonna be
All by myself
Free and clean
All by myself
I'm gonna live
Oh
I'm gonna live
By myself, by myself
free and clean
By myself
Free and clean
Oh
All by myself
I'm gonna live
I never, never, never
Needed anything"

:thumbsup:

Garland_IS_God
02-07-2009, 10:51 AM
What a corrupt, dirty, lying organization MLB really is.

Exactly right. I don't know why I still watch sports in general, but especially baseball. Its frustrating watching athletes making millions and millions of dollars, yet the average person is getting laid off left and right.

illini81887
02-07-2009, 10:54 AM
If its from 2003, not too many current Sox players left. But if im going to suspect somebody that played for back in 03, I would say jose valentin

South Side Irish
02-07-2009, 10:55 AM
I agree, it would be nice to know who the other 104 are now, too.

This is nuts. Who hasn't freaking juiced up?

South Side Irish
02-07-2009, 10:57 AM
Aren't there just under 800 players in all of MLB (not including the minors)? So doesn't that come out to 1 in every 8 players? So its very unlikly that there aren't players on each team that have tested positive. Just very disturbing to me that high of a number of players.

What is that, 15%? Doesn't seem all that high to me, considering how many people in the know think that number should be higher.

white sox bill
02-07-2009, 11:04 AM
Not by baseball, but the feds might take some action. None of these drugs are approved for use in the USA.

Depends if his Dr wrote script for it. Regardless, another one bites the dust. Ho Hum...what else is new?

CubKilla
02-07-2009, 11:05 AM
A-Rod was a fraud before this news hit. All that $$$ and not one championship to show for it.

I love it

wilburaga
02-07-2009, 11:06 AM
I hope the Yankees choke each time they have to hand out bonus money to A-Roid whenever he passes another HR milestone.

W

hi im skot
02-07-2009, 11:06 AM
If its from 2003, not too many current Sox players left. But if im going to suspect somebody that played for back in 03, I would say jose valentin

Do we really want to play the baseless speculations game again? I'm sure there are former Sox players that used steroids, but what's the point of throwing names out there like that?

illini81887
02-07-2009, 11:08 AM
Do we really want to play the baseless speculations game again? I'm sure there are former Sox players that used steroids, but what's the point of throwing names out there like that?
We might as well if there are 104 players involved

hi im skot
02-07-2009, 11:11 AM
We might as well if there are 104 players involved

I don't care if there are 15 players or 150; it just seems unfair to start throwing names out there. I hope MLB releases this information, if for nothing else than a little bit of closure. I just fail to see any benefits from playing the guessing game.

oeo
02-07-2009, 11:13 AM
:o:

Damn, I actually thought he did it the right way.

tstrike2000
02-07-2009, 11:20 AM
:o:

Damn, I actually thought he did it the right way.

Me, too.

soxinem1
02-07-2009, 11:20 AM
I really wanted to believe A-Rod was legit, but once again, I am proven wrong.

Seeing there were 104 players, we better brace for some disappointments!

pearso66
02-07-2009, 11:23 AM
Was this the year that the whole White Sox team refused to take the test so that random tests would be implemented? I could have sworn one of those years they did that. Having that said, there are a couple of White Sox from 03 that I would suspect took steroids, but I won't name names.

oeo
02-07-2009, 11:25 AM
Was this the year that the whole White Sox team refused to take the test so that random tests would be implemented? I could have sworn one of those years they did that. Having that said, there are a couple of White Sox from 03 that I would suspect took steroids, but I won't name names.

Yup.

http://query.nytimes.com/gst/fullpage.html?sec=health&res=9D04E1D7153EF931A25750C0A9659C8B63

PKalltheway
02-07-2009, 11:29 AM
Wow....I thought with the release of the Mitchell Report back in '07, it would close the door on the steroid era. Not so I guess....I shouldn't be so gullible...:o:

FedEx227
02-07-2009, 11:29 AM
A-Rod was a fraud before this news hit. All that $$$ and not one championship to show for it.

I love it

Yes because we all know one player can lead a team to a World Series.

Domeshot17
02-07-2009, 11:29 AM
The crushing blow no one is mentioning is this:

Part of the reason we let Bonds record go of breaking the home run record was we knew Arod was going to come back and destroy it. Not saying we are Arod fans by any means, but in your heart you had to be like this guy will take it back for the good guys, the clean guys. Now we are screwed.

The disappointing thing is Arod has been awesome since he has been off them as well (or so we assume). The only guy left to pull for is Pujols, but he has the background that one may think he used (the DR's struggles to keep players educated has been very hard, he came from no where to greatness, he got very big very fast).

Domeshot17
02-07-2009, 11:33 AM
Yes because we all know one player can lead a team to a World Series.

That is such a bunk argument (that he is a Fraud without a ring not what you said). 1- his team mates did not call him A-Fraud for his playoff record, but because he puts on a HUGE front to the media and has changed completely since he came to new york.

2- And would anyone say Dan Marino is a fraud because he has no ring? Would Nolan Ryan's career be any better or worse looked upon without his 1 title? Was Frank Thomas a fraud without a ring? Is he still one since the one he has he wasn't able to contribute too very much?

There is a lot to give the guy hell over, this isn't one IMO

CubKilla
02-07-2009, 11:36 AM
Yes because we all know one player can lead a team to a World Series.

Considering all that money he's being paid, he should be coming up clutch 99% of the time when the opportunity for him is there. He comes through occasionally but, more often than not, FAIL

So yeah..... he should be a HUGE part of them winning a championship.

oeo
02-07-2009, 11:38 AM
The crushing blow no one is mentioning is this:

Part of the reason we let Bonds record go of breaking the home run record was we knew Arod was going to come back and destroy it. Not saying we are Arod fans by any means, but in your heart you had to be like this guy will take it back for the good guys, the clean guys. Now we are screwed.

I know. :whiner:

I've never hated A-Rod. I've always looked at him as one of the best players to ever play the game. The 'greediness' of players never gets me. Everyone is greedy...if you have the opportunity to set your family up for generation after generation, you're going to turn it down? Now he gets a big fat asterisk next to his career. Sad day.

The disappointing thing is Arod has been awesome since he has been off them as well (or so we assume). The only guy left to pull for is Pujols, but he has the background that one may think he used (the DR's struggles to keep players educated has been very hard, he came from no where to greatness, he got very big very fast).

I've always defended Pujols, too...now I just don't know.

WhiteSox5187
02-07-2009, 11:47 AM
This really is a sad day for baseball. Arguably the greatest hitter of all time has now been exposed as a fraud, and as others have pointed out a lot of people were counting on him to get the record back from the dirty Bonds. Now the record will be tarnished regardless. It's really only a matter of time before this winds up hitting someone that we on this board really like.

Another very damning part of this story is the fact that the union tipped him off. This suggests to me that they don't really give a damn about steroid testing and are actively trying to undermine it. Shame on them.

DSpivack
02-07-2009, 11:51 AM
Thomas and Griffey look better with each passing day.

WhiteSox1989
02-07-2009, 11:51 AM
This makes me mad.

TommyJohn
02-07-2009, 11:57 AM
I dread ever finding out that one or more members of the 2005 White Sox did the roids thing. The Chicago media will rejoice. Greg Couch in particular was keenly disappointed that the Mitchell report didn't implicate anyone from that team. Plus, we'll have to hear from them (and various self-appointed experts) that the championship was "tainted." We don't hear a thing about Clemens "tainting" the Yankees of 1999-2000, but we will have to hear about it if a 2005 Sox is ever caught.

Woofer
02-07-2009, 11:57 AM
Thomas and Griffey look better with each passing day.

Hopefully, Thome also.

pythons007
02-07-2009, 12:03 PM
I dread ever finding out that one or more members of the 2005 White Sox did the roids thing. The Chicago media will rejoice. Greg Couch in particular was keenly disappointed that the Mitchell report didn't implicate anyone from that team. Plus, we'll have to hear from them (and various self-appointed experts) that the championship was "tainted." We don't hear a thing about Clemens "tainting" the Yankees of 1999-2000, but we will have to hear about it if a 2005 Sox is ever caught.

Wouldn't those names have been included in the Mitchell Report then? I thought the Mitchell Report was to bring light to those individuals who were using roids after the drug test policy was implemented? I believe it was implemented the year before the Sox won the World Series (04).

Woofer
02-07-2009, 12:04 PM
I dread ever finding out that one or more members of the 2005 White Sox did the roids thing. The Chicago media will rejoice. Greg Couch in particular was keenly disappointed that the Mitchell report didn't implicate anyone from that team. Plus, we'll have to hear from them (and various self-appointed experts) that the championship was "tainted." We don't hear a thing about Clemens "tainting" the Yankees of 1999-2000, but we will have to hear about it if a 2005 Sox is ever caught.

I can see your point on this, because certain Chicago media members would rejoice about this. However, I would think that if anybody looked into it, there would be players who used steroids on EVERY WS winning team from the last 15 or so years. So it wouldn't be something that only the 2005 team would be singled out on.

oeo
02-07-2009, 12:04 PM
Hopefully, Thome also.

I really hope so, and also that he reaches the 600 Club to make his career look that much better.

Domeshot17
02-07-2009, 12:05 PM
Hopefully, Thome also.

He is the guy I worry about most. My biggest hope with Thome is his power numbers have not declined, so hopefully he did it right. But really, are there many players ABOVE suspicion right now? The only 2 I can really truly in my heart believe are Thomas and Griffey. If 1 of them comes back on that list, My love of the mlb may be destroyed.

I mean, it is still skill, I am not saying it is set up, but if the best players in the league are mostly there due to roids, is the MLB any better than WWE? This is so crushing.

Viva Medias B's
02-07-2009, 12:05 PM
If this turns out to be true, no Hall of Fame for Alex Rodriguez. My position has always been that the Hall of Fame should be shut out to those who use performance enhancing drugs, regardless of who that player is or the teams that player played for.

Vernam
02-07-2009, 12:06 PM
If this turns out to be true, no Hall of Fame for Alex Rodriguez. My position has always been that the Hall of Fame should be shut out to those who use performance enhancing drugs, regardless of who that player is or the teams that player played for.

Agree 100 percent.

It isn't fair, but whoever put up Hall of Fame numbers during the steroid era has to live with people's suspicions that they were users. The more extraordinary their numbers are, the more suspicious the public has a right to be.

How could anyone not have suspected Rodriguez? After 100 years of baseball, any player who reaches some amazing or unprecedented milestone -- especially at a much younger (or older) age than anyone before him -- is automatically suspect to me. I make no apologies for suspecting them, Sox players included. But there's a big difference between suspecting privately and speculating publicly.

A lot of average or below-average players also used, obviously. To some extent they get a free pass because their numbers don't raise any eyebrows. As I said, none of this is fair.

I'm sure there were HoF-qualified guys during the steroid era who did it the right way, and I feel sorry for them if they're tainted unfairly. But I have no way of knowing for certain who those guys are. That's my whole point, and it's the really sad part about what Selig and Fehr allowed to happen.

All that being said, I've got no sympathy for the dirty ones, and I'm always glad when one is exposed as a fraud. I'd prefer that Rodriguez hadn't used. But because he did, I'm glad as hell that it's finally public.

Vernam

WhiteSox5187
02-07-2009, 12:06 PM
I'm a bit surprised that A-Rod doesn't even really defend himself, he's more or less said "Go ask the union," which is almost akin to an admittal.

Does this sink his HOF chances? I would think so.

FedEx227
02-07-2009, 12:11 PM
:(::(: A-Rod was always a guy I could look to as saying "Well at least he's clean" moreso than Pujols. This sucks.

Viva Medias B's
02-07-2009, 12:12 PM
Looks like ESPNEWS is wetting its pants over this.

WhiteSox5187
02-07-2009, 12:13 PM
Well, ESPN is still trying to defend him.

http://espn.go.com/video/clip?id=3890833

Around two minutes in, the anchor wonders if this will damage ARod's reputation as badly as the "baseless" accusations against Bonds.

Viva Medias B's
02-07-2009, 12:14 PM
Well, ESPN is still trying to defend him.

http://espn.go.com/video/clip?id=3890833

Around two minutes in, the anchor wonders if this will damage ARod's reputation as badly as the "baseless" accusations against Bonds.

Huh?

oeo
02-07-2009, 12:25 PM
How could anyone not have suspected Rodriguez? After 100 years of baseball, any player who reaches some amazing or unprecedented milestone -- especially at a much younger (or older) age than anyone before him -- is automatically suspect to me.

I was 9 years old when he broke into the league, so I guess I just kind of hoped he was that good? :dunno:

FedEx227
02-07-2009, 12:26 PM
And even still, I'm not making excuses but A-Rod is not one of these lifelong steroid freaks, you can look at his body to see that. Like Barry Bonds he was already a great player before taking steroids that's much different than the path Sosa, McGwire or Canseco took.

Domeshot17
02-07-2009, 12:30 PM
Actually, will any of the White Sox be on this list? Isn't this the time (I believe its been a while) Frank and Konerko rounded up the troops and told everyone to deny taking the test so it comes up positive so the mlb will have to invoke testing. Kind of like cheating the system for the better cause?

Dibbs
02-07-2009, 12:39 PM
Well this sucks. Looks like Canseco was right again.

dickallen15
02-07-2009, 12:46 PM
If this turns out to be true, no Hall of Fame for Alex Rodriguez. My position has always been that the Hall of Fame should be shut out to those who use performance enhancing drugs, regardless of who that player is or the teams that player played for.

How about other forms of cheating, like scuffing balls, thumb tacks, vaseline, corked bats, players were popping amphetimines for years...............cheating has always occurred in MLB. Yet fans and even players of different eras who did these things laugh about them, yet steroids to them should be worthy of the death penalty. Steroids has made cheating in baseball the equivalent to cheating in golf. What if someone had one of Hank Aaron's old bats and found cork in it? Should he be removed from the HOF? While I don't condone steroids, this test was supposed to be confidential and the government is supposedly protecting the other 103 positive results? Why does perhaps the biggest name get leaked? Seems fishy to me, and wrong.

guillensdisciple
02-07-2009, 01:01 PM
I am so sick of all this steroid controversy. Is there a delete button that I can press to get rid of this? Enough is enough, policy has been changed, the game can go back to normal and we can forget about it. Almost every star we knew from the early 2000's probably took steroids in one shape or another. The game was flawed, but it is past, and that is that. I don't care, I am so sick by never- ending news talks about steroids and baseball. It is like kicking someone when they are down, except here, they continue kicking that someone over and over again. In every other major baseball country in the world, I have not seen this many clouds surround the game of baseball. Cuba, Japan, Korea, Venezuela, Dominican Republic, and Mexico. None of those countries find problems, or issues with steroids. They might be taking steroids, but the game is the same, the passion is the same, money isn't the issue- the game is the issue. I am not saying that baseball here is flawed because of the ludicrous amount of money being shelled into it (which might be the cause of some of the problems we see in baseball) but I wish this was taken care of a long time ago. Preferably when it began, preferably when they knew that people were going to find out and that it was going to be a big deal. The game of baseball here has had a tainted image for 5 years now, enough is enough, stop giving me the past and show me the future. You want to tell me someone took steroids, and you are outlawing them in baseball, then go ahead and make your laws and act on them.

A- Rod took steroids, fine, suspend him for minimal games since it has taken you so many years to uncover this and it is in the past, but send your damn message already. No more news, no more controversy, play baseball and love it. Stop ruining the game I grew up with.

oeo
02-07-2009, 01:07 PM
Actually, will any of the White Sox be on this list? Isn't this the time (I believe its been a while) Frank and Konerko rounded up the troops and told everyone to deny taking the test so it comes up positive so the mlb will have to invoke testing. Kind of like cheating the system for the better cause?

Canseco said Maggs used them...at this point, how can you not believe the guy? Maybe he was clean by then, but I found an article (which I posted earlier) that said only 16 guys refused out of the 37 on the roster that were in Spring Training.

WhiteSox1989
02-07-2009, 01:08 PM
Someone just told me ESPN Just had a list of about ten names. Junior and Manny Ramirez were at the top.

white sox bill
02-07-2009, 01:08 PM
I am so sick of all this steroid controversy. Is there a delete button that I can press to get rid of this? Enough is enough, policy has been changed, the game can go back to normal and we can forget about it. Almost every star we knew from the early 2000's probably took steroids in one shape or another. The game was flawed, but it is past, and that is that. I don't care, I am so sick by never- ending news talks about steroids and baseball. It is like kicking someone when they are down, except here, they continue kicking that someone over and over again. In every other major baseball country in the world, I have not seen this many clouds surround the game of baseball. Cuba, Japan, Korea, Venezuela, Dominican Republic, and Mexico. None of those countries find problems, or issues with steroids. They might be taking steroids, but the game is the same, the passion is the same, money isn't the issue- the game is the issue. I am not saying that baseball here is flawed because of the ludicrous amount of money being shelled into it (which might be the cause of some of the problems we see in baseball) but I wish this was taken care of a long time ago. Preferably when it began, preferably when they knew that people were going to find out and that it was going to be a big deal. The game of baseball here has had a tainted image for 5 years now, enough is enough, stop giving me the past and show me the future. You want to tell me someone took steroids, and you are outlawing them in baseball, then go ahead and make your laws and act on them.

A- Rod took steroids, fine, suspend him for minimal games since it has taken you so many years to uncover this and it is in the past, but send your damn message already. No more news, no more controversy, play baseball and love it. Stop ruining the game I grew up with.

Good point Guillen....far too many orgasms for the media. The reality of it is that drug use will continue. Drugs that can't be detected are being developed as we speak somewhere right now in the World and as soon as they are detected, the next group will follow. A huge demand, huge supply. This will likely escalate in yrs to come.

doublem23
02-07-2009, 01:11 PM
:(::(: A-Rod was always a guy I could look to as saying "Well at least he's clean" moreso than Pujols. This sucks.

Me, too. I always thought of A-Rod as kind of a prima donna, but I at least thought he was clean.

Bonds and Sosa were easy to see, those guys went from being twigs to hulking out well after their bodies should have been adding so much muscle, but A-Rod really never looked that way... He's filled out since his Mariner years, but he also came up to the big leagues when he was what? 19?

Oh well.

GoGoCrede
02-07-2009, 01:12 PM
Someone just told me ESPN Just had a list of about ten names. Junior and Manny Ramirez were at the top.

Anyone know what the other names were? Did anyone else hear this?

Griffey :(:

JermaineDye05
02-07-2009, 01:13 PM
Well looks like its up to TCQ to break the record. He's already got 50 now, if he can just last for about 15 more years and average about 50 HR's a year we should be golden.

I think the biggest letdown will be if we find out that Griffey tested positive (I doubt it though). If it weren't for all of his injuries he would have the record already.

voodoochile
02-07-2009, 01:14 PM
Depends if his Dr wrote script for it. Regardless, another one bites the dust. Ho Hum...what else is new?

Wouldn't want to be the doctor who was prescribing unauthorized medicine. In fact, how do you get a prescription for this stuff filled if it's not authorized? Who stocks it?

WhiteSox1989
02-07-2009, 01:15 PM
Anyone know what the other names were? Did anyone else hear this?

Griffey :(:

I'm not even positive, because I didn't see it myself. So who knows if it were the actual list or whatever.

I hope Griffey didn't test positive. It would be such a disappointment.

voodoochile
02-07-2009, 01:16 PM
I hope the Yankees choke each time they have to hand out bonus money to A-Roid whenever he passes another HR milestone.

W

Sheff, Clemens, Pettit, Giambi, ARod. It's like Oakland East... :tongue:

voodoochile
02-07-2009, 01:23 PM
How about other forms of cheating, like scuffing balls, thumb tacks, vaseline, corked bats, players were popping amphetimines for years...............cheating has always occurred in MLB. Yet fans and even players of different eras who did these things laugh about them, yet steroids to them should be worthy of the death penalty. Steroids has made cheating in baseball the equivalent to cheating in golf. What if someone had one of Hank Aaron's old bats and found cork in it? Should he be removed from the HOF? While I don't condone steroids, this test was supposed to be confidential and the government is supposedly protecting the other 103 positive results? Why does perhaps the biggest name get leaked? Seems fishy to me, and wrong.

Look at what steroids have done to the game though. Did any of those other things cause HR records to fall like raindrops? I mean the single season HR record stood for 30 year only to be beat by 1 and requiring an extra 8 games to do so and then another 35 go by only to see it get shattered, crushed, blasted by 10 while another guy broke it the same year. Then players go on to crack the old mark 4 more times or whatever in the next 3 years including besting the new mark and every single one of those players is neck deep in the steroid controversy. Heck, bring back amphetamines, corked bats and the spitball. Just get the ****ing steroids out of the game.

Edit: Oh and to answer your question, the reason the big names get leaked is because... (drum roll please)... they are big names. I mean no one gives a crap if Josh Fogg is doing steroids... Well, we do, but it's hardly the Earth shattering news that ARod is using. Big news sells. That's all there is to it...

guillensdisciple
02-07-2009, 01:24 PM
Are the White Sox the only team in baseball that doesn't have any question marks?

Okay, that is a stretch, but from the top of my head I can only think of the White Sox, Twins, Royals, Jays, Rays, and Oakland are the only teams I can think of that haven't taken part in this controversy.

I also am going to assume Todd Helton took steroids. The moment the controversy began heating up, his numbers came down. Might just be a direct correlation.

Also, Griffey has looked exactly the same ever since he came into the majors, there is no way he took steroids. I would be shocked.

DeadMoney
02-07-2009, 01:38 PM
Actually, will any of the White Sox be on this list? Isn't this the time (I believe its been a while) Frank and Konerko rounded up the troops and told everyone to deny taking the test so it comes up positive so the mlb will have to invoke testing. Kind of like cheating the system for the better cause?

Yeah, that worries me a little bit. But, there's articles supporting the fact that they made this decision as a team to deny the test. So, in all likelihood, anyone who was to be tested (and refused) is on that list. But, since none have tested positive since that point, I suppose it clears their names?

whitesox901
02-07-2009, 01:41 PM
wow, im actually saddend by this :(:

Vernam
02-07-2009, 01:43 PM
I was 9 years old when he broke into the league, so I guess I just kind of hoped he was that good? :dunno:Just to clarify, I don't fault anyone, especially a kid, for wanting to believe a player is clean.

That's part of what's so sick about this. Every kid who loved baseball grew up thinking he had a shot at the big leagues. No matter how delusional that is -- and I was plenty deluded about my own prospects -- now kids grow up thinking they need to take PEDs to get there.

MLB Network has some pretty good coverage with Reynolds and Plesac. Just had Larry Bowa on saying, "A-Rod lets little things bother him. This is not a little thing."

They're also pointing out that maybe equally scandalous is the allegation by SI that MLBPA chief operating officer Gene Orza was tipping off Rodriguez and others as to when they were going to be tested.

Vernam

jabrch
02-07-2009, 01:43 PM
In 2003? He was playing with Texas - right?

If Oakland is not the home of the steroid kings, then it is definitely Texas.

Young?
A-Rod
Juan Gone
Raffy
I-Rod
Canseco
Mench
Matthews
Sosa
and others...

downstairs
02-07-2009, 01:45 PM
wow, im actually saddend by this :(:

Same here. I always thought of A-Rod as clean. I think he's a bit of a prick, but I like him. I wanted him to break all of Bonds' records.

soxinem1
02-07-2009, 01:58 PM
How about other forms of cheating, like scuffing balls, thumb tacks, vaseline, corked bats, players were popping amphetimines for years...............cheating has always occurred in MLB. Yet fans and even players of different eras who did these things laugh about them, yet steroids to them should be worthy of the death penalty. Steroids has made cheating in baseball the equivalent to cheating in golf. What if someone had one of Hank Aaron's old bats and found cork in it? Should he be removed from the HOF? While I don't condone steroids, this test was supposed to be confidential and the government is supposedly protecting the other 103 positive results? Why does perhaps the biggest name get leaked? Seems fishy to me, and wrong.

I agree. Gaylord Perry and Ed Walsh had spitters as big pitches and they are in the HOF. Don Sutton was caught on camera scuffing the baseball, no one threw a fit when he was inducted.

It was rumored that Willie Mays used and supplied 'uppers' and 'greenies'.

Plus, I'm sure there was more than rubbing alcohol in some of those bottles the trainers had in the clubhouse.

Every era had cheating.

LoveYourSuit
02-07-2009, 02:06 PM
I think at this point you can't do anything to the players.

I wish the Feds can come down on Fehr and Selig because this happened under their watch and yet they continued to cover it up. The cover-up to me is the biggest shame of it all.

Can the Feds force those two to resign? Sounds extreme, but something needs to be done to those two.

Just my opinion.

Craig Grebeck
02-07-2009, 02:13 PM
Nothing they can do about it now. The game has always had its fair share of cheaters, and there's no reason to vilify Alex Rodriguez any more than the guys who took greenies forever.

Vernam
02-07-2009, 02:17 PM
I agree. Gaylord Perry and Ed Walsh had spitters as big pitches and they are in the HOF. The spitter was legal when Walsh played. And not the way steroids were "legal" before MLB started testing for them -- the spitball was a legitmate part of the game until it was phased out starting in 1920 after Ray Chapman's death.

IMO, there's a major difference between steroid users and ball scuffers. And I'd have no problem with a guy being left out of the Hall because of a long-term pattern of non-PED cheating, as opposed to a one-time incident (like, oh, I don't know, maybe corking a bat).

The fact that there are guys in the HoF whose records or character are impeachable does not make a very strong case for admitting steroid cheats.

Vernam

jabrch
02-07-2009, 02:19 PM
Rationalizing away steroids with scuffing a ball, a spitter, and even greenies is not acceptable in my eyes. To each their own...

LoveYourSuit
02-07-2009, 02:19 PM
Kudos to Buster Olney on his inteview right now on ESPN News.

Calling it what it is, his (A-Rod) legacy is tarnished for life. He also believes this will keep him from the HOF.


ESPN has always pampered to MLB and assisted in this cover-up, it's about time a guy like Buster says it how it is.

Craig Grebeck
02-07-2009, 02:19 PM
If Alex Rodriguez is left out of the HOF because there are reports that he failed a drug test (in 2003 mind you, when most of the league was using and the reports were supposed to be anonymous), I will burn down Cooperstown.

Craig Grebeck
02-07-2009, 02:20 PM
Rationalizing away steroids with scuffing a ball, a spitter, and even greenies is not acceptable in my eyes. To each their own...
What makes greenies better? Cheating is cheating.

I_Liked_Manuel
02-07-2009, 02:23 PM
I hope Griffey didn't test positive. It would be such a disappointment.

He had some pretty freak injuries that were mostly the result of harmless running iirc. I don't know how that doesn't raise suspicion.

LoveYourSuit
02-07-2009, 02:24 PM
If Alex Rodriguez is left out of the HOF because there are reports that he failed a drug test (in 2003 mind you, when most of the league was using and the reports were supposed to be anonymous), I will burn down Cooperstown.

Then McGwire, Sosa, & Bonds belong in their with him.

Is that what you want?

Craig Grebeck
02-07-2009, 02:26 PM
Then McGwire, Sosa, & Bonds belong in their with him.

Is that what you want?
None of them (save Bonds, prior to steroid use) are as good as Rodriguez, so quite frankly I don't really care. We have reports of one positive test in 2003 (when a ton of guys were juicing). I don't care.

InKennyWeTrust
02-07-2009, 02:42 PM
But, since none have tested positive since that point, I suppose it clears their names?
Then A-Rod should be just fine.

:lol:

Sargeant79
02-07-2009, 02:47 PM
I really don't think this is going to keep Arod from the hall of fame, although I do agree that it will tarnish his image a bit.

The thing about this whole controversy is that nobody is really above suspicion...the entire era is tainted. And now we have some degree of proof saying that the best three players of this era juiced (Bonds, Clemens, Arod).

There may be a certain number of baseball writers that will never vote for these guys when the time comes to elect them to the HOF, but I don't think it will be enough to keep them out. When the dust settles a few more years down the road and the entire era is put into perspective, I think that the guys like Arod and Bonds who were above and beyond great players for their era will be in.

cws05champ
02-07-2009, 02:56 PM
Are the White Sox the only team in baseball that doesn't have any question marks?

Okay, that is a stretch, but from the top of my head I can only think of the White Sox, Twins, Royals, Jays, Rays, and Oakland are the only teams I can think of that haven't taken part in this controversy.

I also am going to assume Todd Helton took steroids. The moment the controversy began heating up, his numbers came down. Might just be a direct correlation.

Also, Griffey has looked exactly the same ever since he came into the majors, there is no way he took steroids. I would be shocked.

Well, Canseco played for the White Sox, Rays and Oakland. Not to mention Giambi stealing the MVP from Big Hurt while juicing with the A's. A's are one of the big problems with Canceco and MacGuire in their early years.

kevingrt
02-07-2009, 02:57 PM
Brad Nessler had a great quote after they interrupted the KU-OSU game for the A-Rod story... In a great tone he goes, "Well this story only has legs for 10 years or so."

shes
02-07-2009, 03:03 PM
Look at what steroids have done to the game though. Did any of those other things cause HR records to fall like raindrops? I mean the single season HR record stood for 30 year only to be beat by 1 and requiring an extra 8 games to do so and then another 35 go by only to see it get shattered, crushed, blasted by 10 while another guy broke it the same year. Then players go on to crack the old mark 4 more times or whatever in the next 3 years including besting the new mark and every single one of those players is neck deep in the steroid controversy. Heck, bring back amphetamines, corked bats and the spitball. Just get the ****ing steroids out of the game.

Edit: Oh and to answer your question, the reason the big names get leaked is because... (drum roll please)... they are big names. I mean no one gives a crap if Josh Fogg is doing steroids... Well, we do, but it's hardly the Earth shattering news that ARod is using. Big news sells. That's all there is to it...

Henry Aaron played in an era that was dirtier than the last 20 years have been. Players took everything they could get their hands on. Former teammates have said that Aaron also roided. Those guys didn't know the health risks of the stuff they were taking, so they went absolutely crazy with it. Hank is a sacred cow, so nobody's going to touch him, but it goes to show how deep all this goes.

You can't put asterisks next to anyone's name. Sports have always been a haven for cheaters. It is what it is. My love of sports has diminished as I've gotten older for this reason, but I'm not going to vilify any one person -- Bonds, Canseco, A-Roid, Clemens, these guys aren't the exceptions that some might have us believe. It would be hypocritical to say our modern-day cheaters shouldn't go to the HOF when the HOF is already full of cheaters. The inflated numbers guys put up these days are a result of smaller parks, smaller strike zones, more effective drugs, and more know-how regarding which drugs to take and at what intervals.

And will someone tell me why baseball is the sport propped up as a punching bag? Why does pro football get a free pass?

None of this phases me too much anymore, but it sure is a downer when you start to really think about how you fell in love with the game and how now all of that is destroyed, how it was all bull**** to begin with.

oeo
02-07-2009, 03:09 PM
None of them (save Bonds, prior to steroid use) are as good as Rodriguez, so quite frankly I don't really care. We have reports of one positive test in 2003 (when a ton of guys were juicing). I don't care.

As far as I'm concerned, that one positive test tarnishes everything. If that was the only time he used them, then he made a huge mistake, and should pay for it.

Vernam
02-07-2009, 03:14 PM
Henry Aaron played in an era that was dirtier than the last 20 years have been. Players took everything they could get their hands on. Former teammates have said that Aaron also roided. Those guys didn't know the health risks of the stuff they were taking, so they went absolutely crazy with it. Hank is a sacred cow, so nobody's going to touch him, but it goes to show how deep all this goes.Source?

Vernam

StillMissOzzie
02-07-2009, 03:15 PM
I don't care if there are 15 players or 150; it just seems unfair to start throwing names out there. I hope MLB releases this information, if for nothing else than a little bit of closure. I just fail to see any benefits from playing the guessing game.

MLB probably won't since they administered the testing under a promise of anonymity. The feds are are under no such obligation. MLB screwed up by not destroying the test results as well as the remaining untested urine samples when they had the chance, and fed have that now too. And I couldn't be happier for it. Out them all, I say, let the court of public opinion do what the courts of law cannot.
In a related vein, Barry Bonds' tap-dancing lawyers might succeed in keeping all these other test results and calenders and communications with Anderson out of evidence, and keep their client out of jail in the process, but his shrunken testes and swollen noggin have been outed. But I digress.

If Alex Rodriguez is left out of the HOF because there are reports that he failed a drug test (in 2003 mind you, when most of the league was using and the reports were supposed to be anonymous), I will burn down Cooperstown.

Internet badass!

SMO
:gulp:

Vernam
02-07-2009, 03:26 PM
MLB probably won't since they administered the testing under a promise of anonymity. The feds are are under no such obligation. MLB screwed up by not destroying the test results as well as the remaining untested urine samples when they had the chance, and fed have that now too. And I couldn't be happier for it. Agreed, but it's the Players' Association that really screwed up by not making sure the samples were destroyed. Bob Costas on the MLB Network just said that error will go down with Nixon's failure to destroy his tapes. Hyperbolic, but not a bad point.

I cannot overstate how impressed I am with the MLB Network's coverage today. They've canceled their afternoon schedule for wall-to-wall discussion of Rodriguez. Verducci is stellar, and so was Costas during a lengthy live interview of Selena Roberts, co-author of the SI story. If anyone wondered if the network would have journalistic independence, this very reassuring. It was good enough to keep me riveted on a 60-degree afternoon when I should've gotten out of the house.

Vernam

jabrch
02-07-2009, 03:29 PM
Former teammates have said that Aaron also roided.

I've never seen or heard this. Where did you hear it?

areilly
02-07-2009, 03:38 PM
Okay, that is a stretch, but from the top of my head I can only think of the White Sox, Twins, Royals, Jays, Rays, and Oakland are the only teams I can think of that haven't taken part in this controversy.

The Royals brought both Jason Grimsley and Chuck Knoblauch aboard. Off the top of my head, Oakland had both Giambis, Miguel Tejada and Jack Cust, although Cust may have been in another team's farm system at the time of the incident that made the Mitchell Report.

Fenway
02-07-2009, 04:14 PM
http://assets.nydailynews.com/img/2009/02/08/pf_arod_part2.jpg

thedudeabides
02-07-2009, 04:24 PM
The crushing blow no one is mentioning is this:

Part of the reason we let Bonds record go of breaking the home run record was we knew Arod was going to come back and destroy it. Not saying we are Arod fans by any means, but in your heart you had to be like this guy will take it back for the good guys, the clean guys. Now we are screwed.

The disappointing thing is Arod has been awesome since he has been off them as well (or so we assume). The only guy left to pull for is Pujols, but he has the background that one may think he used (the DR's struggles to keep players educated has been very hard, he came from no where to greatness, he got very big very fast).

Awesome point. :thumbsup:

Sam Spade
02-07-2009, 04:29 PM
We might not be screwed. Arod will crumble mentally and pujols has a good shot.

cards press box
02-07-2009, 04:31 PM
A-fraud

A-roid? I can see the crowds at Fenway chanting that repreatedly this summer.

Jose Canseco hits the bulls-eye again.

Yes, that's true. For all the grief Canseco has received, unfolding events have repeatedly shown that he told the truth. McGwire, Clemens and now A-Rod.

Remember when ESPN and Dan Patrick and the folks at Wrigley could not get enough of Sosa and McGwire and their assault of the record books that came straight from the World Wrestling Federation? Wasn't it really the folks who turned a blind eye to steroids who were mad at Canseco for calling out the vast hypocrisy?

Score one for Frank Thomas!

Thomas and Griffey look better with each passing day.

You guys are right on the money! and Voodoochile's take on Eric Carmen's All By Myself is excellent. I'd like to add a few thoughts.

Thomas was a clean ballplayer and had to watch these frauds like Jason Giambi wrongfully take accolades that Thomas and Ken Griffey, Jr. earned with their talent. That alone makes the Big Hurt a hero in my book. But he did more than that. He stood up to the farce and indignity of the steroids era.

More than any other player (star or otherwise) of his time, Thomas vocally opposed the steroid outbreak, called for testing and did so despite: (a) express opposition from the players' union and (b) little to no backing from management. It seemed to me that Thomas was "all by himself" in not only being clean but in standing up to this mess.

In this regard, Frank Thomas was to the steroid scandal what Christy Mathewson was to the gambling scandal in baseball around WW I. We talk about the 1919 Black Sox today but baseball historians will freely admit that the gambling problem went far beyond the Black Sox who, in the end, were the fall guys for the whole scandal. Everyone in baseball knew about the gambling problem just as seventy or so years later, everyone knew about the steroid problem. In his day, the only to stand up and acknowledge the gambling problem (long before the Black Sox scandal) was Mathewson. The same was true for Thomas in his day.

Mathewson is a Hall of Famer in every sense of the word. Same for Frank Thomas.


None of them (save Bonds, prior to steroid use) are as good as Rodriguez, so quite frankly I don't really care. We have reports of one positive test in 2003 (when a ton of guys were juicing). I don't care.

Well, I care and, frankly, am uninterested whether you or anyone else care about the issue or not. The prevalence of steroids distorted the way
baseball was supposed to be played and, what's more, put pressure on clean players to cheat and endanger their health just to keep up.

In the past few years, who have won the World Series? Answer -- balanced teams who could pitch, hit, catch and run. Baseball post-Mitchell report is simply a way better product than say the McGwire/Sosa farce in 1998.

In sum, the whole steroid era stinks and I am glad to see the mask ripped off of every Sosa/McGwire/Clemens/A-Rod/Giambi/Palmeiro who played the public for chumps.

Fenway
02-07-2009, 04:34 PM
A-roid? I can see the crowds at Fenway chanting that repreatedly this summer.




Reading nyyfans.com Fenway will not be what he has to worry about

This thread is a doozy

http://forums.nyyfans.com/showthread.php?t=116242

from boston.com

http://www.boston.com/sports/baseball/redsox/extras/extra_bases/2009/02/rodriguez_teste.html

hawkjt
02-07-2009, 04:51 PM
Frank got screwed out of the MVP in 2000 by the admitted roid boy Giambi when Frank finished second in voting.

In 2003 Frank had 42 hrs,105 rbis, .267 onbase.390.

Not sure where he finished in the voting that year, but I suspect most of the guys ahead of him were juicing.

Frank Thomas, the last great hitter of his generation standing tall.

areilly
02-07-2009, 04:54 PM
http://assets.nydailynews.com/img/2009/02/08/pf_arod_part2.jpg

I was wondering which hack headline would emerge first.

turners56
02-07-2009, 04:59 PM
Well I'll be damned...

So when is a story about Ortiz testing positive going to come out?

Fenway
02-07-2009, 04:59 PM
Curt Schilling has something to say

http://38pitches.weei.com/general/shocked-you-just-cant-be-anymore/

turners56
02-07-2009, 05:02 PM
Curt Schilling has something to say

http://38pitches.weei.com/general/shocked-you-just-cant-be-anymore/

Curt Schilling writes for WEEI? *Gulp

voodoochile
02-07-2009, 05:07 PM
Nothing they can do about it now. The game has always had its fair share of cheaters, and there's no reason to vilify Alex Rodriguez any more than the guys who took greenies forever.

And again, since when did greenies cause the record book to be rewritten several times in a few short years? Greenies are basically a quadruple shot of espresso or a couple of Red Bulls. Steroids on the other hand add muscle mass, reaction time, fast twitch capability and incredible strength. There is a reason they are outlawed in every major sport in the world.

You can't see the difference between steroids and spitballs or greenies or corked bats even, I don't know what to tell you. One changed the face of the game forever the others didn't.

Not all levels of cheating, lying and stealing are the same. Burglary isn't the same as armed robbery isn't the same as murder. Steroids practically killed the game we love even if it did cause the average joe to spend more money at the park.

Everyone who wants to see steroids legalized for use in MLB raise your hand and say "aye"...

(crickets)

voodoochile
02-07-2009, 05:09 PM
If Alex Rodriguez is left out of the HOF because there are reports that he failed a drug test (in 2003 mind you, when most of the league was using and the reports were supposed to be anonymous), I will burn down Cooperstown.

104 positives in ~ 1200 tests. 90% of the league wasn't cheating when tested.

Sam Spade
02-07-2009, 05:10 PM
And again, since when did greenies cause the record book to be rewritten several times in a few short years? Greenies are basically a quadruple shot of espresso or a couple of Red Bulls. Steroids on the other hand add muscle mass, reaction time, fast twitch capability and incredible strength. There is a reason they are outlawed in every major sport in the world.

You can't see the difference between steroids and spitballs or greenies or corked bats even, I don't know what to tell you. One changed the face of the game forever the others didn't.

Not all levels of cheating, lying and stealing are the same. Burglary isn't the same as armed robbery isn't the same as murder. Steroids practically killed the game we love even if it did cause the average joe to spend more money at the park.

Everyone who wants to see steroids legalized for use in MLB raise your hand and say "aye"...

(crickets)
Steroids also improve eyesight.

WhiteSox5187
02-07-2009, 05:13 PM
And again, since when did greenies cause the record book to be rewritten several times in a few short years? Greenies are basically a quadruple shot of espresso or a couple of Red Bulls. Steroids on the other hand add muscle mass, reaction time, fast twitch capability and incredible strength. There is a reason they are outlawed in every major sport in the world.

You can't see the difference between steroids and spitballs or greenies or corked bats even, I don't know what to tell you. One changed the face of the game forever the others didn't.

Not all levels of cheating, lying and stealing are the same. Burglary isn't the same as armed robbery isn't the same as murder. Steroids practically killed the game we love even if it did cause the average joe to spend more money at the park.

Everyone who wants to see steroids legalized for use in MLB raise your hand and say "aye"...

(crickets)
I couldn't say it any better. Steroids caused two of baseball's most sacred records (single season HR and all time HR) to be broken. As voodoo pointed out in a previous post, the single season HR record stood for 35 years. And then within the span of five years it was obliterated. Greenies never turned bad players into good players, steroids did (see: Sosa, Sammy).

turners56
02-07-2009, 05:16 PM
I couldn't say it any better. Steroids caused two of baseball's most sacred records (single season HR and all time HR) to be broken. As voodoo pointed out in a previous post, the single season HR record stood for 35 years. And then within the span of five years it was obliterated. Greenies never turned bad players into good players, steroids did (see: Sosa, Sammy).

I'm guessing Sammy started taking roids in Texas when Canseco was around. So it took him about 3-4 years to get better. That's utter phail on his part.

voodoochile
02-07-2009, 05:18 PM
Henry Aaron played in an era that was dirtier than the last 20 years have been. Players took everything they could get their hands on. Former teammates have said that Aaron also roided. Those guys didn't know the health risks of the stuff they were taking, so they went absolutely crazy with it. Hank is a sacred cow, so nobody's going to touch him, but it goes to show how deep all this goes.

You can't put asterisks next to anyone's name. Sports have always been a haven for cheaters. It is what it is. My love of sports has diminished as I've gotten older for this reason, but I'm not going to vilify any one person -- Bonds, Canseco, A-Roid, Clemens, these guys aren't the exceptions that some might have us believe. It would be hypocritical to say our modern-day cheaters shouldn't go to the HOF when the HOF is already full of cheaters. The inflated numbers guys put up these days are a result of smaller parks, smaller strike zones, more effective drugs, and more know-how regarding which drugs to take and at what intervals.

And will someone tell me why baseball is the sport propped up as a punching bag? Why does pro football get a free pass?

None of this phases me too much anymore, but it sure is a downer when you start to really think about how you fell in love with the game and how now all of that is destroyed, how it was all bull**** to begin with.

I'm not saying football is clean, but their CBA has included testing for steroids for a LONG time. Players will always find a way to circumvent those rules as new designer drugs pop up or HGH becomes commonplace, but at least the NFL maintains a semblance of wanting a clean sport. Baseball actively turned a blind eye to what was going on and allowed the problem to persist for 15 years minimum until things got so crazy they had to do something or risk a massive public perception backlash.

Oh and spreading rumors about Aaron really is in poor taste. It's easy to speculate and talk trash about former generations with no proof to back it up, but the fact is, we have evidence about how bad this particular era has been and how far the best in the game went out of the way to make themselves appear as gods just for more money and more praise. **** 'em all. I don't give two ****s if any of them ever get in. Whiny, narcissistic swollen headed brats the lot of 'em and they can all get stuffed...

Sam Spade
02-07-2009, 05:20 PM
Reading nyyfans.com Fenway will not be what he has to worry about

This thread is a doozy

http://forums.nyyfans.com/showthread.php?t=116242

from boston.com

http://www.boston.com/sports/baseball/redsox/extras/extra_bases/2009/02/rodriguez_teste.html


Damn those lousy reporters, always reporting things!

Craig Grebeck
02-07-2009, 05:25 PM
Well, I care and, frankly, am uninterested whether you or anyone else care about the issue or not. The prevalence of steroids distorted the way
baseball was supposed to be played and, what's more, put pressure on clean players to cheat and endanger their health just to keep up.

In the past few years, who have won the World Series? Answer -- balanced teams who could pitch, hit, catch and run. Baseball post-Mitchell report is simply a way better product than say the McGwire/Sosa farce in 1998.

In sum, the whole steroid era stinks and I am glad to see the mask ripped off of every Sosa/McGwire/Clemens/A-Rod/Giambi/Palmeiro who played the public for chumps.
Sosa has never tested positive buddy, and last I checked, world series winners are usually teams who can hit/pitch/catch run. McGwire and Sosa didn't do anything to change that.

And again, since when did greenies cause the record book to be rewritten several times in a few short years? Greenies are basically a quadruple shot of espresso or a couple of Red Bulls. Steroids on the other hand add muscle mass, reaction time, fast twitch capability and incredible strength. There is a reason they are outlawed in every major sport in the world.

You can't see the difference between steroids and spitballs or greenies or corked bats even, I don't know what to tell you. One changed the face of the game forever the others didn't.

Not all levels of cheating, lying and stealing are the same. Burglary isn't the same as armed robbery isn't the same as murder. Steroids practically killed the game we love even if it did cause the average joe to spend more money at the park.

Everyone who wants to see steroids legalized for use in MLB raise your hand and say "aye"...

(crickets)
I don't want them legalized, I just don't really give a **** whether Rodriguez was using steroids in an era when there was no testing and HGH was rampant. I don't care if he used when I was 14 -- he's still a great player. Does it take his luster off? Yes. But to say that steroids almost killed baseball is ludicrous.

104 positives in ~ 1200 tests. 90% of the league wasn't cheating when tested.
Most does not equal ninety percent. I'm not sure where you learned mathematics.

I guess my usage of "using" was a little vague, but I'd wager 50.1% of the league in 2003 was on something -- be it HGH, anabolic steroids, etc.

WhiteSox5187
02-07-2009, 05:33 PM
Sosa has never tested positive buddy, and last I checked, world series winners are usually teams who can hit/pitch/catch run. McGwire and Sosa didn't do anything to change that.


I don't want them legalized, I just don't really give a **** whether Rodriguez was using steroids in an era when there was no testing and HGH was rampant. I don't care if he used when I was 14 -- he's still a great player. Does it take his luster off? Yes. But to say that steroids almost killed baseball is ludicrous.


Most does not equal ninety percent. I'm not sure where you learned mathematics.

I guess my usage of "using" was a little vague, but I'd wager 50.1% of the league in 2003 was on something -- be it HGH, anabolic steroids, etc.
Well, nothing will ever kill baseball. As Bill Veeck used to say baseball mst be a great game because it thrives inspite of everything the owners (and now the union) have done to it.

He's still a good player, yes, but his record is now tarnished. If you allow A-Rod in who evidently has a positive test, well then you have to let in Bonds, Sosa, McGwire and Palmero. You can argue "Oh well, A-Rod is more talented," yea, fine. He still cheated and will put up HOF numbers, but those numbers aren't accurate.

Craig Grebeck
02-07-2009, 05:34 PM
Well, nothing will ever kill baseball. As Bill Veeck used to say baseball mst be a great game because it thrives inspite of everything the owners (and now the union) have done to it.

He's still a good player, yes, but his record is now tarnished. If you allow A-Rod in who evidently has a positive test, well then you have to let in Bonds, Sosa, McGwire and Palmero. You can argue "Oh well, A-Rod is more talented," yea, fine. He still cheated and will put up HOF numbers, but those numbers aren't accurate.
They are accurate. We can't quantify the total effect steroids have on the game, and it would be ridiculous to exclude Rodriguez when we don't know how many people cheated.

Vernam
02-07-2009, 05:36 PM
I don't want them legalized, I just don't really give a **** whether Rodriguez was using steroids in an era when there was no testing and HGH was rampant. I don't care if he used when I was 14 -- he's still a great player. Does it take his luster off? Yes. But to say that steroids almost killed baseball is ludicrous.Not financially, but steroids killed a big part of what was special about baseball -- a 100-year continuum of records that had no parallel in American team sports.

Vernam

voodoochile
02-07-2009, 05:36 PM
Sosa has never tested positive buddy, and last I checked, world series winners are usually teams who can hit/pitch/catch run. McGwire and Sosa didn't do anything to change that.


I don't want them legalized, I just don't really give a **** whether Rodriguez was using steroids in an era when there was no testing and HGH was rampant. I don't care if he used when I was 14 -- he's still a great player. Does it take his luster off? Yes. But to say that steroids almost killed baseball is ludicrous.


Most does not equal ninety percent. I'm not sure where you learned mathematics.

I guess my usage of "using" was a little vague, but I'd wager 50.1% of the league in 2003 was on something -- be it HGH, anabolic steroids, etc.

That's the year these results are from. When tested the ~1200 players, over 90% of them passed the test.

If steroids were allowed, I'd stop watching. I think a lot of die hard fans feel that way. That's the risk of allowing them to go unchecked. The potential to kill baseball is there as sure as allowing the players to gamble on games would.

You're the one who compared greenies and corked bats and scuffing baseballs to steroids. Not me. Again, how you can't see the difference is beyond me.

You dismiss as one failed test and feel assured ARod is still a great player without the juice. Why? How do you know he hasn't been juicing all along? They've been around his whole career, why do you assume it's only one failure of judgment? Love the defense of ShamME* by the way. We already know the guy cheats; he just got out before the testing caught him. If you had to guess, what would be your thoughts? Did ShamME* use PED's or not? I'd tell you to ask him personally, but last I heard, he no speaky the language so good...:rolleyes:

slavko
02-07-2009, 05:37 PM
Sosa has never tested positive buddy, and last I checked, world series winners are usually teams who can hit/pitch/catch run. McGwire and Sosa didn't do anything to change that.

I guess my usage of "using" was a little vague, but I'd wager 50.1% of the league in 2003 was on something -- be it HGH, anabolic steroids, etc.

Just speculating here (that's why we have WSI) but Sammy began to revert to skinny kid status when testing started, took that year off, and came back almost as big as ever. So there are alternative, legal for now or undetectable, means of adding bulk.

voodoochile
02-07-2009, 05:37 PM
They are accurate. We can't quantify the total effect steroids have on the game, and it would be ridiculous to exclude Rodriguez when we don't know how many people cheated.

Since when did 2 wrongs or 100 wrongs or 1000 wrongs equal a right?

Others cheated, so it's okay for ARod to do it?

Puh-leeze...

WhiteSox5187
02-07-2009, 05:40 PM
Sosa has never tested positive buddy, and last I checked, world series winners are usually teams who can hit/pitch/catch run. McGwire and Sosa didn't do anything to change that.


I don't want them legalized, I just don't really give a **** whether Rodriguez was using steroids in an era when there was no testing and HGH was rampant. I don't care if he used when I was 14 -- he's still a great player. Does it take his luster off? Yes. But to say that steroids almost killed baseball is ludicrous.


Most does not equal ninety percent. I'm not sure where you learned mathematics.

I guess my usage of "using" was a little vague, but I'd wager 50.1% of the league in 2003 was on something -- be it HGH, anabolic steroids, etc.
Well, since 50.1% is equal to most and 90%>50.1%, it is safe to say that while 90% is not most, it as least more than or equal to most.

In this test, about 8% of players tested positive. It's possible that there were a lot more who were using, but the tests run were not able to detect anything. However, based on this test 92% of players tested negative, and I think it is safe to say that 92% is a majority. Sadly Alex Rodriguez was not part of this majority.

Sam Spade
02-07-2009, 05:45 PM
Well, since 50.1% is equal to most and 90%>50.1%, it is safe to say that while 90% is not most, it as least more than or equal to most.

In this test, about 8% of players tested positive. It's possible that there were a lot more who were using, but the tests run were not able to detect anything. However, based on this test 92% of players tested positive, and I think it is safe to say that 92% is a majority. Sadly Alex Rodriguez was not part of this majority.


Negative. 92% tested negative.

soxwon
02-07-2009, 05:45 PM
6 years ago oh my, hang him.
i went on a 3 day cola binge in 85 prosecute me.

WhiteSox5187
02-07-2009, 05:45 PM
Negative. 92% tested negative.
Oops! :redface:

Craig Grebeck
02-07-2009, 05:45 PM
Not financially, but steroids killed a big part of what was special about baseball -- a 100-year continuum of records that had no parallel in American team sports.

Vernam
We don't know that Aaron and those guys weren't using greenies, among other things.
That's the year these results are from. When tested the ~1200 players, over 90% of them passed the test.

If steroids were allowed, I'd stop watching. I think a lot of die hard fans feel that way. That's the risk of allowing them to go unchecked. The potential to kill baseball is there as sure as allowing the players to gamble on games would.

You're the one who compared greenies and corked bats and scuffing baseballs to steroids. Not me. Again, how you can't see the difference is beyond me.

You dismiss as one failed test and feel assured ARod is still a great player without the juice. Why? How do you know he hasn't been juicing all along? They've been around his whole career, why do you assume it's only one failure of judgment? Love the defense of ShamME* by the way. We already know the guy cheats; he just got out before the testing caught him. If you had to guess, what would be your thoughts? Did ShamME* use PED's or not? I'd tell you to ask him personally, but last I heard, he no speaky the language so good...:rolleyes:
Most of the league (as in 50.1%), in my opinion, was using something. Vilifying Rodriguez when there were many, many other guys in the league using is ridiculous. He wasn't the lone ranger in any of this.

Of course steroids shouldn't be allowed. Sweet lord, no one ever said they should be allowed. I just don't think it should stop him from being in the HOF.

How do we know anyone hasn't been juicing all along? I don't believe steroids are so powerful that they can manufacture a player like Alex.

Did Sammy use PEDs? Probably. Do we know for sure? Not at all. He's as murky a case as anyone.

How many White Sox over the years probably used PEDs? It isn't worth speculating, as it is probably a very large amount.

Craig Grebeck
02-07-2009, 05:47 PM
Since when did 2 wrongs or 100 wrongs or 1000 wrongs equal a right?

Others cheated, so it's okay for ARod to do it?

Puh-leeze...
No, I just believe it is naive to go bonkers over Alex using. As if it is surprising that a major league player -- six years ago, when testing was anonymous -- used steroids.

STOP THE PRESSES

Craig Grebeck
02-07-2009, 05:47 PM
well, since 50.1% is equal to most and 90%>50.1%, it is safe to say that while 90% is not most, it as least more than or equal to most.

In this test, about 8% of players tested positive. It's possible that there were a lot more who were using, but the tests run were not able to detect anything. However, based on this test 92% of players tested negative, and i think it is safe to say that 92% is a majority. Sadly alex rodriguez was not part of this majority.
Human Growth Hormone.

WhiteSox5187
02-07-2009, 05:52 PM
We don't know that Aaron and those guys weren't using greenies, among other things.

Most of the league (as in 50.1%), in my opinion, was using something. Vilifying Rodriguez when there were many, many other guys in the league using is ridiculous. He wasn't the lone ranger in any of this.

Greenies don't have anywhere NEAR the effect on a ball player's ability as steroids do. If that were the case you would have seen guys breaking Maris' record a hell of a lot earlier than 1998. The fact that Maris record wasn't just broken but was obliterated MULTIPLE times within the span of 5 years shows how dramatically steroids impact the game. Steroids can turn a guy like Sammy Sosa from being a skinny 30/30 guy to a massive guy capable of hitting 60 HRs. It did the same thing with Bonds. It made McGwire a guy who never hit 50 HRs in a year before to a guy who hit 70.

The fact that a lot of guys were on steroids doesn't make it right. Also, not all of those guys broke (or are on pace to break) some of baseball's most sacred records.

Sam Spade
02-07-2009, 05:53 PM
No, I just believe it is naive to go bonkers over Alex using. As if it is surprising that a major league player -- six years ago, when testing was anonymous -- used steroids.

STOP THE PRESSES

Suprising or not surprising, who cares? He used steroids, so his stats are skewed. That's what matters. We don't know if 2003 was the last time he used. Its the last time he failed a test.

As for your opinion based on nothing empirical that 50% are using, well, it seems rather unimportant too considering the actual statistics show that about 90% were clean from testable drugs at that time.

Craig Grebeck
02-07-2009, 05:54 PM
Greenies don't have anywhere NEAR the effect on a ball player's ability as steroids do. If that were the case you would have seen guys breaking Maris' record a hell of a lot earlier than 1998. The fact that Maris record wasn't just broken but was obliterated MULTIPLE times within the span of 5 years shows how dramatically steroids impact the game. Steroids can turn a guy like Sammy Sosa from being a skinny 30/30 guy to a massive guy capable of hitting 60 HRs. It did the same thing with Bonds. It made McGwire a guy who never hit 50 HRs in a year before to a guy who hit 70.

The fact that a lot of guys were on steroids doesn't make it right. Also, not all of those guys broke (or are on pace to break) some of baseball's most sacred records.
We don't know what greenies do to baseball players. We don't know what steroids do to baseball players.

WhiteSox5187
02-07-2009, 05:57 PM
Human Growth Hormone.
If they tested for that, I'm sure you're right a lot more players would be found to have tested positive. I don't think that as many as 50.1% would be. But just because a bunch of other players did steroids doesn't excuse A-Rod from doing them. The vast majority of them are in no danger of going to the HOF much less shattering some of baseball's records.

Here essentially is my point, would Sosa have hit 600 HRs were it not for steroids? No. He wouldn't have come close. Would McGwire have hit 70 in '98? No. Now, maybe A-Rod would have put up equally great numbers without steroids, but there is now a cloud of suspicion there. Is it so hard to believe that he might have taken steroids several times before 2003? No, not really. So this means that we won't be able to know what his REAL numbers were. That is why if i were a HOF voter I wouldn't vote for him.

Sam Spade
02-07-2009, 05:58 PM
We don't know what greenies do to baseball players. We don't know what steroids do to baseball players.

There is considerable scientific evidence that shows how both improve your ability. The most damning thing I've read was that steroids not only improve your physical strength but they also help your eyesight and hand eye coordination. They make you a better hitter, not just a more powerful one.

WhiteSox5187
02-07-2009, 06:00 PM
We don't know what greenies do to baseball players. We don't know what steroids do to baseball players.
I'm sure there are scientific studies that can give you in great detail what steroids and greenies do to a ball player's body and what this allows them to do. However if greenies have the same impact that steroids do (which seems to be the crux of your argument) then why did these records last for as long as they did?

Craig Grebeck
02-07-2009, 06:01 PM
I'm sure there are scientific studies that can give you in great detail what steroids and greenies do to a ball player's body and what this allows them to do. However if greenies have the same impact that steroids do (which seems to be the crux of your argument) then why did these records last for as long as they did?
It's not the crux of my argument. I'm saying they are both wrong, but we shouldn't glorify players from the seventies and eighties when they were using something.

thomas35forever
02-07-2009, 06:33 PM
There's no more hope for Hank Aaron's record to be broken cleanly. I honestly believe that.

Sam Spade
02-07-2009, 06:54 PM
There's no more hope for Hank Aaron's record to be broken cleanly. I honestly believe that.
Pujols?

kitekrazy
02-07-2009, 07:08 PM
And again, since when did greenies cause the record book to be rewritten several times in a few short years? Greenies are basically a quadruple shot of espresso or a couple of Red Bulls. Steroids on the other hand add muscle mass, reaction time, fast twitch capability and incredible strength. There is a reason they are outlawed in every major sport in the world.

You can't see the difference between steroids and spitballs or greenies or corked bats even, I don't know what to tell you. One changed the face of the game forever the others didn't.

Not all levels of cheating, lying and stealing are the same. Burglary isn't the same as armed robbery isn't the same as murder. Steroids practically killed the game we love even if it did cause the average joe to spend more money at the park.

Everyone who wants to see steroids legalized for use in MLB raise your hand and say "aye"...

(crickets)

From what I've read in this thread there seems to be enough steroid apologists.

It still bothers me that Bud Selig remains the commissioner and the owners approve of it.

I love baseball but I'm starting to detest MLB. Sometimes I wish it would die and start over. It wouldn't hurt to adopt some policies like the NFL. I think the owners need to tell the players union to go **** itself.

PaleHoser
02-07-2009, 07:14 PM
I believe that management should have the right to terminate the contract of any player who tests positive for PED's.

A player's past performance is the equivalent to employment history and is a huge part of what drives their market and what they can earn. If they achieved these numbers using PED's, they IMO have committed fraud.

Giambi commanded the big money contract with the Yankees based on MVP numbers in Oakland while he was juiced. When he admitted to being juiced, he should have been fired and he shouldn't make another dime off his contract.

Think about it - if you falsified your employment history or used false credentials to get a job and your employer found out that you were a fake, would there be any doubt that you could be fired for cause?

I'd like to see the MLBPA try to argue this one...

It's Dankerific
02-07-2009, 07:21 PM
Pujols?

He's already got a recurring injury.

MrT27
02-07-2009, 07:31 PM
I don't like seeing this at all. But just to point out there is not proof that taking steroids makes you a better baseball player. Yes you may get stronger quicker but to hit a baseball you use "fast twitch" and becoming big and strong doesn't help these muscle fibers.

Some may come back with "well if they don't help why did players take them?" Well corking a bat doesn't help either yet players do it. Baseball players aren't always very smart...

Sam Spade
02-07-2009, 07:31 PM
He's already got a recurring injury.
And yet the time he has missed from injury hasn't come close to eliminating his chances.

Sam Spade
02-07-2009, 07:32 PM
I don't like seeing this at all. But just to point out there is not proof that taking steroids makes you a better baseball player. Yes you may get stronger quicker but to hit a baseball you use "fast twitch" and becoming big and strong doesn't help these muscle fibers.

Some may come back with "well if they don't help why did players take them?" Well corking a bat doesn't help either yet players do it. Baseball players aren't always very smart...
Steroids also improve eyesight and hand eye coordination.

Sam Spade
02-07-2009, 07:34 PM
He's already got a recurring injury.
Actually if you look at arod's early career he missed more time to injury than albert.

gf2020
02-07-2009, 07:35 PM
There's no more hope for Hank Aaron's record to be broken cleanly. I honestly believe that.
Ridiculous statement. The player who might break the record might not even be born yet. And testing will only get stringier and eventually expand to previously undetectable HGH.

It's Dankerific
02-07-2009, 07:36 PM
Actually if you look at arod's early career he missed more time to injury than albert.

That may be true, but it was a freak injury. He's never had another problem with it. Albert's is more concerning for longevity because he's not even sure if he's better this year.

Sam Spade
02-07-2009, 07:44 PM
That may be true, but it was a freak injury. He's never had another problem with it. Albert's is more concerning for longevity because he's not even sure if he's better this year.

I agree that its more concerning, but I wouldn't write off the game's current best hitter.

It's Dankerific
02-07-2009, 07:49 PM
I agree that its more concerning, but I wouldn't write off the game's current best hitter.

The record isn't just about ability, its longevity. Look at Ken Griffey, Jr.

I'm sorry to say that Pujols chances are very small, in my opinion.

soxfan43
02-07-2009, 07:51 PM
I believe that management should have the right to terminate the contract of any player who tests positive for PED's.

A player's past performance is the equivalent to employment history and is a huge part of what drives their market and what they can earn. If they achieved these numbers using PED's, they IMO have committed fraud.

Giambi commanded the big money contract with the Yankees based on MVP numbers in Oakland while he was juiced. When he admitted to being juiced, he should have been fired and he shouldn't make another dime off his contract.

Think about it - if you falsified your employment history or used false credentials to get a job and your employer found out that you were a fake, would there be any doubt that you could be fired for cause?

I'd like to see the MLBPA try to argue this one...

I'd like to hear the MLBPA's explanation for how this leaked. they are going to have a lot of explaining to do to the players.

Sam Spade
02-07-2009, 07:53 PM
The record isn't just about ability, its longevity. Look at Ken Griffey, Jr.

I'm sorry to say that Pujols chances are very small, in my opinion.

Obviously. He is roughly halfway there already and just turned 29 a few weeks ago. I'd say his chances aren't great, but he has a shot at it. Like I said, writing him off entirely by saying there is no hope whatsoever, would be foolish.

WhiteSox5187
02-07-2009, 08:16 PM
I'd like to hear the MLBPA's explanation for how this leaked. they are going to have a lot of explaining to do to the players.
I want to hear their explanation as to why they thought breaking the CBA was no big deal. Especially on the one topic in the CBA that most Americans (not to mention Congress) care most about!

soxfan43
02-07-2009, 08:21 PM
I want to hear their explanation as to why they thought breaking the CBA was no big deal. Especially on the one topic in the CBA that most Americans (not to mention Congress) care most about!


I dont think most Americans really cared until the media made it a big deal. No one cared in 98 when Mac and Sosa doubled in size and were bombing home runs. The tests in 2003 were confidential and were just to see if MLB really needed testing, which they obviously did. The results from that round of testing should never ever have been public. Someone in the MLBPA leaked this, so someone's head will roll. Regardless if roids are right or wrong or how you feel, the results were confidential. But now that Arod is outed, I am kind of curious about the other 100 or so guys.

manders_01
02-07-2009, 09:08 PM
Are the White Sox the only team in baseball that doesn't have any question marks?

Okay, that is a stretch, but from the top of my head I can only think of the White Sox, Twins, Royals, Jays, Rays, and Oakland are the only teams I can think of that haven't taken part in this controversy.

I also am going to assume Todd Helton took steroids. The moment the controversy began heating up, his numbers came down. Might just be a direct correlation.

Also, Griffey has looked exactly the same ever since he came into the majors, there is no way he took steroids. I would be shocked.

Helton has (possibly had) serious back problems a la Crede and spent the off season recovering from back surgery. He's always seemed to me to be of the ilk of Big Frank. It'd be very hard for me to believe he was using and his falling off wasn't directly correlated to his back.

MrT27
02-07-2009, 09:12 PM
Steroids also improve eyesight and hand eye coordination.
So can taking vitamins and eating your fruits and veggies. Do you have a link to a study which shows this? I highly doubt they make any significant improvement to someone trying to hit a baseball if they do help at all.

Frontman
02-07-2009, 09:17 PM
"...all the heroes and legends,
I knew as a child,
have fallen into idols of clay..."

Yet another one comes up as being dirty. The sad thing is that he was and is a phenomenal athlete. As was Bonds. But to use steroids now tarnishes his legacy. He already stepped on the landmine today with his "You need to talk to the union" line. I agree that Giambi's apology sucked, but at least he stepped out and said something. A-Rod now stands as another in a long line of 'roid users who when caught won't come clean.

And I hate to say this now, but given the fact that THE LEAGUE KNEW players were taking; and took YEARS to address it; can we trust even guys like Frank Thomas? It's easy to call a bluff when you know no one will take you up on the offer. Frank challenged everyone to test him; knowing that nobody would. So, was he really stepping out, or was he just putting on a show?

And as great as the interview was, I'm sorry, sorry, sorry. This crap of Alex's right as an American was stepped upon is BS. HE USED ILLEGAL DRUGS...ENOUGH SAID. STOP THE BS OF "WELL, IT WASN'T AGAINST BASEBALL RULES" defense. It's against the law to use anabolic steroids not perscriped by a doctor for medical use. STOP THE BS OF HIDING BEHIND THE UNION, THE CBA, SCOTT BORAS, and the rest.

It's the same way Bonds with his testimony that he was clean, now evidence proves he used steroids; BUT, we can throw that out so he's back to being honest and should be allowed to play?!?!?! That there has to be some form of collusion to keep him from being hired? Wait, how about being 43, broken down, and a complete jerk to anyone who dares look at him? Think THAT might keep him from being hired?

Why is it that a regular working joe tests positive for drugs, that stays on his record; he can lose his job, possibly go to jail, etc; yet if you can hit a ball or run fast or dunk on a rim its not a big deal?

I'm disgusted by it all.

Frontman
02-07-2009, 09:19 PM
I'd like to hear the MLBPA's explanation for how this leaked. they are going to have a lot of explaining to do to the players.

US Government is more powerful than any union. If the Federal Government wants the records; they'll get the records. The union can cry foul all it wants, it harbored illegal behavior and did nothing to prevent it. In a black and white world (which, last time I checked, breaking a law SHOULD be) the government can give a rats pa-to-ee of what the union reps promised the drug addicts....

Rdy2PlayBall
02-07-2009, 09:33 PM
I don't know the whole story but I think it's dumb to discredit this whole guys career because of one year. I want to here more about this before I even come close to compairing him with Bonds... A-Rod doesn't even look steroided up. :scratch:

EuroSox35
02-07-2009, 10:01 PM
People need to try and stop judging by looks for a couple reasons. First, it's very hard to tell under a baseball uniform. On TV Joe Crede doesn't look that strong to me (especially compared to the other players), then I saw a picture of him in a regular t-shirt and was shocked at how big his bicep was. (BTW after Mike North's trip to NY where he did radio there, he said he was sure ARod was on it after seeing him shirtless in the lockerroom, he said on first glance, it looked like Mr Olympia). But even with that, you still can't tell by looks, it's not like you just inject it and inflate to an olympic bodybuilder. If you wanted to, you could do that, but it can be hard to tell between a roided up guy and what a pro athlete's body should look like.

Junior wouldn't surprise me, especially since he's always breaking down. I said it when the whole Canseco thing happened, baseball has done it to itself, players have no longer earned 'innocent until proven guilty'

EuroSox35
02-07-2009, 10:09 PM
BTW this story really annoys me. I used to give MLB the benefit of the doubt because I figured most guys were on HGH and they were limited in terms of testing, but now you're telling me a high profile, highest paid, MVP caliber player gets caught with their testing, and you don't start getting tough on steroids until the government comes calling? Very sad

At this point all I can assume is that it's a level playing field since everyone is on this crap and I'm just watching a bunch of genetic freaks go at it. The only guy I've ever really trusted was Frank, but who knows at this point, what good is anyone's word? Remember that idiot Palmeiro? Pointing his finger and then he gets suspended a little bit later in that series against us.

EuroSox35
02-07-2009, 10:15 PM
All you people debating if Pujols can break the record, what makes you think he's clean? The fact that he basically went from A-ball to a MVP caliber player in one year? WAKE UP!

And honestly, I don't know when steroid use became widespread, but I don't even believe that guys were clean in past eras. Go watch the Costas Aaron-Mays interview, there were things around back then too, and Mays had a comment which struck me strongly, he basically said 'people would give me stuff and say 'take it' but I didn't even know what it was', I'm surprised it didn't get scrutinized much more...Meanwhile Aaron looked kind of defensive to me when he answered 'I didn't take anything, none of that stuff'`

RockyMtnSoxFan
02-07-2009, 10:17 PM
Are the White Sox the only team in baseball that doesn't have any question marks?

Okay, that is a stretch, but from the top of my head I can only think of the White Sox, Twins, Royals, Jays, Rays, and Oakland are the only teams I can think of that haven't taken part in this controversy.

I also am going to assume Todd Helton took steroids. The moment the controversy began heating up, his numbers came down. Might just be a direct correlation.

Also, Griffey has looked exactly the same ever since he came into the majors, there is no way he took steroids. I would be shocked.

To be honest (and I know some people are going to rip me for this), I've always suspected Thome. When it first started to come out that lots of players were hitting home runs with the aid steroids, I thought about the people who seemed suspicious to me, and he was one of those. (This was around the time he was with the Phillies, before he came to the Sox.) Part of it is just that I've distrusted the increased home run totals from the beginning, even before and during the '98 season, so I've been leery of all the big sluggers.

As for Helton, I think his power numbers were more likely inflated by pre-humidor Coors Field than by steroids. He never has been very bulky, and like Manders pointed out, his recent drop off has coincided with back problems. The humidor probably contributed too. Of course, at this point I wouldn't be surprised by any name except for the Big Hurt.

EuroSox35
02-07-2009, 10:20 PM
They're ripping ESPN a new one on The Score. All of their (ESPN's) heroes are 'roiders.

Meh, those Score guys are idiots. Of course ESPN is going to cover a league MVP and guy who set salary records. Why don't they look in the mirror after looking the other way while idolizing a guy in their own backyard, Sosa? Even after he was fricken caught corking a bat, they didn't turn on him until he took off the clown uniform

soxfan43
02-07-2009, 10:24 PM
US Government is more powerful than any union. If the Federal Government wants the records; they'll get the records. The union can cry foul all it wants, it harbored illegal behavior and did nothing to prevent it. In a black and white world (which, last time I checked, breaking a law SHOULD be) the government can give a rats pa-to-ee of what the union reps promised the drug addicts....


So what about the rampant methamphetamine use in baseball that has been going for decades? Last I checked that was illegal as well, yet no one seems to care about that.

Sam Spade
02-07-2009, 10:29 PM
So can taking vitamins and eating your fruits and veggies. Do you have a link to a study which shows this? I highly doubt they make any significant improvement to someone trying to hit a baseball if they do help at all.
There was a show on HBO about steroids and the effect of them about two years ago and they discussed at length how additional testosterone (synthetic or natural) has a greatly positive effect on hand eye coordination and vision. Its nothing like vitamins and fruits in that regard. Doubt it all you want.

voodoochile
02-07-2009, 10:29 PM
So what about the rampant methamphetamine use in baseball that has been going for decades? Last I checked that was illegal as well, yet no one seems to care about that.

Isn't that crystal meth? I'd have a hard time believing it's a serious performance enhancer given what happens to people who abuse it.

And again... stimulants DON'T make you hit the ball any harder. A couple of Red Bulls will sharpen your brain and make you tune in better as any college test taker can attest. Caffeine and Nicotine stimulate your brain. They get the synapses firing to the point where they are considered treatments for symptoms of Alzheimer's and other dementia causing diseases.

No one ever shattered the HR record simply because they were wide awake...

soxfan43
02-07-2009, 10:31 PM
Isn't that crystal meth? I'd have a hard time believing it's a serious performance enhancer given what happens to people who abuse it.

And again... stimulants DON'T make you hit the ball any harder. A couple of Red Bulls will sharpen your brain and make you tune in better as any college test taker can attest. Caffeine and Nicotine stimulate your brain. They get the synapses firing to the point where they are considered treatments for symptoms of Alzheimer's and other dementia causing diseases.

No one ever shattered the HR record simply because they were wide awake...


If it didn't help at all, why were so many guys openly using them and talking about "greenies"? In a long season, stuff like this will get you "up" for games you might normally not be ready for. While it might not be as performance enhancing as steroids, I was just bringing it up in response to the posters comments about steroids being illegal and all that. Just as amphetamines are. So just like poeple enjoy picking and choosing their steroid candidates, they are also picking and choosing which illegal drugs are bad.

Sam Spade
02-07-2009, 10:39 PM
If I remember correctly, a country somewhere in europe found that experienced soldiers on steroids improved their marksmanship greatly. The results were conclusive enough to make an impression on me. Sorry I don't have any more information than that.

voodoochile
02-07-2009, 10:44 PM
If it didn't help at all, why were so many guys openly using them and talking about "greenies"? In a long season, stuff like this will get you "up" for games you might normally not be ready for. While it might not be as performance enhancing as steroids, I was just bringing it up in response to the posters comments about steroids being illegal and all that. Just as amphetamines are. So just like poeple enjoy picking and choosing their steroid candidates, they are also picking and choosing which illegal drugs are bad.

Right, but are you honestly saying you cannot see the difference between getting wired and adding pounds and pounds of artificial muscle?

Come on.

Besides can you point to one person who said, "hey, them stimulants are okay by me"? No, people are saying that in comparison to stimulants steroids are exponentially worse for the game we love.

One is stealing a candy bar. The other is robbing the Federal Reserve Bank. That's the difference.

How can you honestly not see that?

I mean seriously, all you folks defending the roiders by using the greenies argument, do you honestly not see any difference between the two or are you just playing Devil's Advocate? I don't understand the basic logic that says 3 cups of coffee are the same thing as adding 20 pounds of lean muscle by injecting yourself with PED's. It's mind boggling that anyone could even consider this a logical somparison, but please, fill me in. How can you say they are the same thing?

In a perfect world, I'd love to see them use nothing stronger than Red Bull or what the heck Ephedrine. Alcohol, hot dogs, tobacco and coffee. It worked for Babe Ruth why not for today's players. Sure, what the heck, but (and like my very own, it's a big one) if I have to choose between greenies and steroids, it's a no-brainer. Wide awake with a standard body build is clearly the better solution. Besides, no guarantees the guys taking steroids aren't taking greenies too, so wide awake and built like King Kong or wide awake and built like a typical baseball player seems to be the decision I am left with. Um... do I really need to explain it?

soxfan43
02-07-2009, 10:50 PM
Right, but are you honestly saying you cannot see the difference between getting wired and adding pounds and pounds of artificial muscle?

Come on.

Besides can you point to one person who said, "hey, them stimulants are okay by me"? No, people are saying that in comparison to stimulants steroids are exponentially worse for the game we love.

One is stealing a candy bar. The other is robbing the Federal Reserve Bank. That's the difference.

How can you honestly not see that?

I mean seriously, all you folks defending the roiders by using the greenies argument, do you honestly not see any difference between the two or are you just playing Devil's Advocate? I don't understand the basic logic that says 3 cups of coffee are the same thing as adding 20 pounds of lean muscle by injecting yourself with PED's. It's mind boggling that anyone could even consider this a logical somparison, but please, fill me in. How can you say they are the same thing?

In a perfect world, I'd love to see them use nothing stronger than Red Bull or what the heck Ephedrine. Alcohol, hot dogs, tobacco and coffee. It worked for Babe Ruth why not for today's players. Sure, what the heck, but (and like my very own, it's a big one) if I have to choose between greenies and steroids, it's a no-brainer. Wide awake with a standard body build is clearly the better solution. Besides, no guarantees the guys taking steroids aren't taking greenies too, so wide awake and built like King Kong or wide awake and built like a typical baseball player seems to be the decision I am left with. Um... do I really need to explain it?


I totally see it. And understand it. I just get sick of hearing all the poeple using the ILLEGAL drug arguement. So its cool if players snort coke in the clubhouse before a game? Thats a similar effect to amphetamines, not roids. If you wanna rip guys for roids, fine, please do. Its well deserved. But keep in mind, steroids weren't the only illegal substance being used and overlooked in baseball. Steroid users were breaking the law as so many people point out. But so were players using amphetamines. I just get pissed when fans would only pick on Bonds or Clemens, when it was clear that tons of guys were on roids. So it bugs me when people bring up illegal drug use, but are just picking and choosing which drug they want to talk about.

jabrch
02-07-2009, 10:51 PM
Curt Schilling has something to say

Shocking... Who Cares?

jabrch
02-07-2009, 10:54 PM
104 positives in ~ 1200 tests. 90% of the league wasn't cheating when tested.


More accurately, 90% of the players didn't get caught. We have no idea how many were cheating since the testing was not up to full IOC standards anyhow. Without a blood test, we have only a partial answer to the question.

soxfan43
02-07-2009, 10:57 PM
More accurately, 90% of the players didn't get caught. We have no idea how many were cheating since the testing was not up to full IOC standards anyhow. Without a blood test, we have only a partial answer to the question.


I find it pretty hilarious that the players all knew they'd be tested at some point in 2003 to determine if further testing would be needed. And 104 players still chose to roll the dice.

voodoochile
02-07-2009, 11:02 PM
I find it pretty hilarious that the players all knew they'd be tested at some point in 2003 to determine if further testing would be needed. And 104 players still chose to roll the dice.

Nobody ever said professional athletes were smart...:tongue:

soxfan43
02-07-2009, 11:04 PM
Nobody ever said professional athletes were smart...:tongue:

Now that's for damn sure.

WhiteSoxFan84
02-07-2009, 11:11 PM
Keep this crap coming. I want more names named off of that list of 103 or 104 players that were revealed in those documents. Every big name from the 90's and 00's that gets linked to steroids should viewed as another step closer to make Frank Thomas a first ballot HOFer.

I just hope Albert Pujols never gets accused of that crap...

doublem23
02-07-2009, 11:27 PM
I love baseball but I'm starting to detest MLB. Sometimes I wish it would die and start over. It wouldn't hurt to adopt some policies like the NFL. I think the owners need to tell the players union to go **** itself.

Is this a joke? The NFL is just as roided-up as MLB, but they get away with it a) major media companies like ESPN know not to bite the hand that feeds them, and keep brushing things like this under the rug. Shawn Merriman won the NFL Defesneive Player of the Year award the same year he was suspended four games for failing a steroid test. That's outrageous! Look at the **** people are throwing at A-Rod for failing a test six years ago. B) Cranky old baseball writers still place the game in the 60's in this mythical status and have no problem ragging on today's players for destroying the beautiful game they loved.

I'm not defending the MLB, but if you think the NFL (or any other sports league) is the model of anti-doping, you're dead wrong. As long as there is demand, players will find a way to skirt the rules. Regardless of the sport.

WhiteSoxFan84
02-07-2009, 11:38 PM
Is this a joke? The NFL is just as roided-up as MLB, but they get away with it a) major media companies like ESPN know not to bite the hand that feeds them, and keep brushing things like this under the rug. Shawn Merriman won the NFL Defesneive Player of the Year award the same year he was suspended four games for failing a steroid test. That's outrageous! Look at the **** people are throwing at A-Rod for failing a test six years ago. B) Cranky old baseball writers still place the game in the 60's in this mythical status and have no problem ragging on today's players for destroying the beautiful game they loved.

I'm not defending the MLB, but if you think the NFL (or any other sports league) is the model of anti-doping, you're dead wrong. As long as there is demand, players will find a way to skirt the rules. Regardless of the sport.

I hope it was a joke. Or maybe he was serious and is just a big fan of shootings, strip club incidents, and people shooting themselves with their own guns.

Frontman
02-07-2009, 11:40 PM
If it didn't help at all, why were so many guys openly using them and talking about "greenies"? In a long season, stuff like this will get you "up" for games you might normally not be ready for. While it might not be as performance enhancing as steroids, I was just bringing it up in response to the posters comments about steroids being illegal and all that. Just as amphetamines are. So just like poeple enjoy picking and choosing their steroid candidates, they are also picking and choosing which illegal drugs are bad.

Show me where I said greenies and amphetamines should be ignored?

Oh, wait. I didn't. It goes without saying but I'll say it again, IF WE AS A CULTURE APPROACHED THIS ISSUE WITH A BLACK AND WHITE STANCE; all illegal drugs would be prosecuted. Period.

I think though if people really wanted to speak truthfully about this issue and take it head on for ACTUAL CHANGE; we need to stop using polite terms. Call these players drug addicts; because that is exactly what they are. They're pathetic drug addicts who only get away with their drug abuse because of their celebrity.

I'd love to see if drug addiction specialists (like Dr. Drew Pinsky) could address this in terms of addiction. To me, that's what it seems. A-Rod (among many others) have incredible talent to play MLB baseball, yet feel compelled to shorten their lives, ruin their chances at having kids, just to pad their numbers.

soxfan43
02-07-2009, 11:47 PM
Show me where I said greenies and amphetamines should be ignored?

Oh, wait. I didn't. It goes without saying but I'll say it again, IF WE AS A CULTURE APPROACHED THIS ISSUE WITH A BLACK AND WHITE STANCE; all illegal drugs would be prosecuted. Period.

I think though if people really wanted to speak truthfully about this issue and take it head on for ACTUAL CHANGE; we need to stop using polite terms. Call these players drug addicts; because that is exactly what they are. They're pathetic drug addicts who only get away with their drug abuse because of their celebrity.

I'd love to see if drug addiction specialists (like Dr. Drew Pinsky) could address this in terms of addiction. To me, that's what it seems. A-Rod (among many others) have incredible talent to play MLB baseball, yet feel compelled to shorten their lives, ruin their chances at having kids, just to pad their numbers.

Coming soon on ESPN, Celebrity Rehab: MLB Clubhouse? Ya, that's just what MLB needs, someone else exploiting this issue on a TV show. This isn't limited to baseball or sports. People take shortcuts to get desired results in many walks of life. And I didn't mean you specifically. But I hear the, oh steroids are illegal so lets prosecute them all arguement all the time. But they never bring up amphetamines, which are just as illegal.

Frontman
02-07-2009, 11:58 PM
Coming soon on ESPN, Celebrity Rehab: MLB Clubhouse? Ya, that's just what MLB needs, someone else exploiting this issue on a TV show. This isn't limited to baseball or sports. People take shortcuts to get desired results in many walks of life. And I didn't mean you specifically. But I hear the, oh steroids are illegal so lets prosecute them all arguement all the time. But they never bring up amphetamines, which are just as illegal.

Personally, I think you find an island, drop off all the serious addicts there, no matter how popular they are; give them all the drugs they want; but no way off the island. That way, if you cut off the demand, the supply eventually would have to go away.

Count me as one who thinks all of these crimes should be prosecuted. While I mentioned Dr. Drew; its more of the fact his name is one that everyone knows. No, I don't think we need an ESPN reality series on on a drug addict, since they already did "Bonds on Bonds."

Same with all illegal drugs. If everyone knows that the Sunset strip nightclubs is THE place to score crack or meth; why exactly don't they raid them and shut all the clubs down?

Simply put, America talks a great game about a war on drugs, war on crime, war on whatever; but when it comes to a truly hard decision (which ACTUAL WAR involves) they can't make those hard decisions.

soxfan43
02-08-2009, 12:09 AM
Personally, I think you find an island, drop off all the serious addicts there, no matter how popular they are; give them all the drugs they want; but no way off the island. That way, if you cut off the demand, the supply eventually would have to go away.

Count me as one who thinks all of these crimes should be prosecuted. While I mentioned Dr. Drew; its more of the fact his name is one that everyone knows. No, I don't think we need an ESPN reality series on on a drug addict, since they already did "Bonds on Bonds."

Same with all illegal drugs. If everyone knows that the Sunset strip nightclubs is THE place to score crack or meth; why exactly don't they raid them and shut all the clubs down?

Simply put, America talks a great game about a war on drugs, war on crime, war on whatever; but when it comes to a truly hard decision (which ACTUAL WAR involves) they can't make those hard decisions.

Well, I can't say I find much to argue with there. It's a lot easier to arrest random users instead of going after the sources. And I dont see that changing anytime soon.

cards press box
02-08-2009, 12:10 AM
Reading nyyfans.com Fenway will not be what he has to worry about

I listened to XM 175 tonight and, boy, you're not kidding! Yankee fans flooded the phone lines and were going absolutely bananas about the SI story. I know that Yankee home crowds have been anti-A-Rod before but this scandal may take that to a whole new level.

Sosa has never tested positive buddy, and last I checked, world series winners are usually teams who can hit/pitch/catch run. McGwire and Sosa didn't do anything to change that.

You don't think that Sosa was on steroids? Do you think it was just a coincidence that he started to look like the Michelen Man in the late '90's? Come on. The Sosa/McGwire home run derby in 1998 was about as legitimate as a Hulk Hogan/Rick Flair grudge match.

World championship teams are usually well balanced and, yes, that has not changed but you miss the larger point. Juiced up players are less likely to play a well balanced game and, for this reason as well as the reasons already discussed, steroids are antithetical to good baseball.

Let me put it this way: stats drives salary and steroids drive stats. And players bulked up on steroids lose much of their all around game. Could we possibly have a better example of this than Sosa? When he came up with the Sox, he was a five tool player, all the way. To build up his stats (and acquire fame, adoration and more money), Sosa juiced up and essentially dropped four of the five tools. With an irony worthy of O. Henry, Sosa and McGwire chased a record in 1998 that Roger Maris held. Read any historical analysis of Maris that you want. All will emphasize the greatness of Maris' all around game -- his defense, his arm, his bunting, his baserunning, everything. The Sosa/McGwire travesty in 1998 was an affront to everything Maris stood for on the baseball field.

Lip Man 1
02-08-2009, 12:48 AM
This and That:

May take on the A-Rod situation is this. What does this do to Joe Torre's "legacy?"

Consider how Tony LaRussa is raked over the coals for his stance regarding McGwire, Canseco et al.....well it's a fact Torre was manager when Giambi was in New York, Torre was manager when Pettitte was in New York, Torre was manager when Clemens was in New York, Torre was manager when Rodriguez was in New York.

Did Joe not know or suspect a thing about what may have been going on?

------------------------

Regarding Sosa. True he has never (yet) been publicly indicted regarding steriods but the circumstansial evidence is absolutely overwhelming.

From the change in his physical appearance, to his reporting ten thousand dollars in cash stolen out of his hotel room in Miami, to the fact that steroids were not illegal in the Dominican until recently, to his best friend Manny Alexander, being arrested in Chicago and the police finding steroids and needles in the glove box, to the way he carefully worded his prepared statement before congress (i.e. paraphrasing -- I have never taken anything illegal, I have never ingested anything illegal...)

He's innocent in the courts (as of now), in the court of public opinion this fraud was convicted years ago.

Lip

soxfan43
02-08-2009, 01:05 AM
This and That:

May take on the A-Rod situation is this. What does this do to Joe Torre's "legacy?"

Consider how Tony LaRussa is raked over the coals for his stance regarding McGwire, Canseco et al.....well it's a fact Torre was manager when Giambi was in New York, Torre was manager when Pettitte was in New York, Torre was manager when Clemens was in New York, Torre was manager when Rodriguez was in New York.

Did Joe not know or suspect a thing about what may have been going on?

------------------------

Regarding Sosa. True he has never (yet) been publicly indicted regarding steriods but the circumstansial evidence is absolutely overwhelming.

From the change in his physical appearance, to his reporting ten thousand dollars in cash stolen out of his hotel room in Miami, to the fact that steroids were not illegal in the Dominican until recently, to his best friend Manny Alexander, being arrested in Chicago and the police finding steroids and needles in the glove box, to the way he carefully worded his prepared statement before congress (i.e. paraphrasing -- I have never taken anything illegal, I have never ingested anything illegal...)

He's innocent in the courts (as of now), in the court of public opinion this fraud was convicted years ago.

Lip

I forgot all that stuff with Manny ALexander and Sosa. And lets not forget, he did get caught corking. So its not like cheating is beneath him. And he was also caught lying on several occasions. Torre's legacy will definitely take a hit like Tony, but its not like he was the only one in baseball who knew what was going on. I'm just wondering how/why Arods name got out now and not any of the other 103 players. He's clearly a big name, but there's no way he's the only big name guy on that list.

Craig Grebeck
02-08-2009, 02:15 AM
All you people debating if Pujols can break the record, what makes you think he's clean? The fact that he basically went from A-ball to a MVP caliber player in one year? WAKE UP!

And honestly, I don't know when steroid use became widespread, but I don't even believe that guys were clean in past eras. Go watch the Costas Aaron-Mays interview, there were things around back then too, and Mays had a comment which struck me strongly, he basically said 'people would give me stuff and say 'take it' but I didn't even know what it was', I'm surprised it didn't get scrutinized much more...Meanwhile Aaron looked kind of defensive to me when he answered 'I didn't take anything, none of that stuff'`
Pujols has been awesome since the second he stepped on a minor league field.

StillMissOzzie
02-08-2009, 02:18 AM
Reading nyyfans.com Fenway will not be what he has to worry about

This thread is a doozy

http://forums.nyyfans.com/showthread.php?t=116242

from boston.com

http://www.boston.com/sports/baseball/redsox/extras/extra_bases/2009/02/rodriguez_teste.html

If Yankee (and their fans) schadenfreude is your cup of tea, drop into that first link there, pull up a comfortable chair, and enjoy a good 60 pages or so of Yankee fan bitching and moaning and hand-wringing. I love it!

SMO
:D:

sullythered
02-08-2009, 03:19 AM
Man, oh, man. I know it's been said a bunch of times already, but this just really cements Big Hurt's spot as the best hitter in my life. I really hope somebody in the national media points it out in a big way.

Btw, was this the same test the Sox whole team declined to take in hopes that it would force the league's hand?

South Side Irish
02-08-2009, 07:01 AM
Pujols has been awesome since the second he stepped on a minor league field.

Dude, I'm as big a Pujols fan as anyone. I cheered Bonilla's injury 9 years ago since it gave him the shot all us Cardinal fans begged for in 2000 as he romped through the minors. But I just don't know how you can a) ignore his incredible improvement from 14 round pick (or something) out of JuCo to unanimous ROY and MVP candidate and b) everyone else is guilty, chances are he is, too.

I'm an optimist, but even I don't throw the "at least Pujols is clean" prayer out there anymore. I hope so, and I think so, but jeez, any thing is "possible" in MLB these days. :(:

white sox bill
02-08-2009, 09:23 AM
Wouldn't want to be the doctor who was prescribing unauthorized medicine. In fact, how do you get a prescription for this stuff filled if it's not authorized? Who stocks it?

Recall the Florida based anti-aging clinics from a few yrs back. There were dozens of them. What better State than the retirement Capital to have a "anti-aging" clinic? There were plenty of Dr's prescribing under the guise of male Andropause--the equivalent of female Menopause. A drop in testosterone, low sex drive, decreased muscle mass. They did millions in revenue. They had a pharmacy in Orlando I think called Signature Pharmacy which compounded (IE manufactured their own) all types of AAS and GH. But the Feds busted them all. They used basically quacks as Dr's for their script writing ability.

Several months after the Feds seized and shut them all down, I met a customer service rep at a bodybuilding show in Tampa who told me that Consaco was one of his clients. He said he'd drive up to Orlando to pick up his gear. Said Jose was dumber than a box of rocks because they had to tell him several times how to inject and where and so on.

But these days, I think if a Dr prescribes, he has to report script to his state regulatory office and the FDA, which in turn I'm sure scrutinizes them quite well. There are still several labs which make Test. around the USA, Paddock being one of them. They still have legit uses for people with said medical conditions. The European based Organon (sp?) is huge maker of AAS.

But your spot on Voodoo, you can't waltz up to your local Walgreen's and walk away with a few vials of Test or Decca. They just don't stock it.

kevingrt
02-08-2009, 10:05 AM
ESPN just showed the clip of the interview Rodriguez had with Katie Couric on 60 Minutes back in 2007. She flat out asked him if he used steroids, HGH, etc. or was ever tempted to and he said no. Classic. It is so nice sometimes to see liars be put in their place.

Frontman
02-08-2009, 10:37 AM
ESPN just showed the clip of the interview Rodriguez had with Katie Couric on 60 Minutes back in 2007. She flat out asked him if he used steroids, HGH, etc. or was ever tempted to and he said no. Classic. It is so nice sometimes to see liars be put in their place.

Which will set up the classic response when interviewed again, "I never knowingly took steroids."

All of these guys are so full of it; its beyond funny.

white sox bill
02-08-2009, 10:47 AM
The fact Arod used PED's isn't shocking. As I stated before, its sad but will only get worse in coming yrs. Way too much money involved plus cutting edge technology will keep the users one step ahead of the PED police. Not the way its supposed to be.

Started watching ESPN early this AM but am so sick of all this media induced Arod crap, I turned channel so I could watch the ice fishermen get recused from Lake Erie

voodoochile
02-08-2009, 10:50 AM
Man, oh, man. I know it's been said a bunch of times already, but this just really cements Big Hurt's spot as the best hitter in my life. I really hope somebody in the national media points it out in a big way.

Btw, was this the same test the Sox whole team declined to take in hopes that it would force the league's hand?

Okay, for the record...

Yes, this was that year, but the Sox didn't decline to take the tests. They originally voted to do so and yes it was in hopes of cementing the rule into the CBA to prevent future cheating, but after meeting with union reps they went ahead and took the tests in the interests of union solidarity.

Martinigirl
02-08-2009, 11:13 AM
Has there been any mention of who else is on the list? I keep reading the list is 104 players long but the only name that is being talked about is A-Rod.

oeo
02-08-2009, 11:16 AM
Pujols has been awesome since the second he stepped on a minor league field.

That doesn't mean a damn thing.

Lip Man 1
02-08-2009, 11:44 AM
Sully:

Thomas and Griffey clearly have had what they did cleanly, held in higher regard than when all this stuff started (and it was pretty damn good even then!)

Lip

Craig Grebeck
02-08-2009, 11:45 AM
That doesn't mean a damn thing.
The post that I quoted stated:


All you people debating if Pujols can break the record, what makes you think he's clean? The fact that he basically went from A-ball to a MVP caliber player in one year? WAKE UP!
He was MVP caliber when he was in A. I know that isn't evidence that he doesn't use -- I personally see no reason to accuse him of it -- but the post made it seem like Pujols was some journeyman who roided up and made it to the majors. He's a once in a lifetime hitter, and we shouldn't assume guilt just because he may go down as the greatest right-handed hitter ever.

voodoochile
02-08-2009, 11:53 AM
The post that I quoted stated:


He was MVP caliber when he was in A. I know that isn't evidence that he doesn't use -- I personally see no reason to accuse him of it -- but the post made it seem like Pujols was some journeyman who roided up and made it to the majors. He's a once in a lifetime hitter, and we shouldn't assume guilt just because he may go down as the greatest right-handed hitter ever.

:hurt
"Did he say once in a lifetime?"

http://a.espncdn.com/i/headshots/mlb/players/65/2974.jpg

"Yeah, I don't get that either..."

Craig Grebeck
02-08-2009, 11:55 AM
:hurt
"Did he say once in a lifetime?"

http://a.espncdn.com/i/headshots/mlb/players/65/2974.jpg

"Yeah, I don't get that either..."
Easily better than both.

voodoochile
02-08-2009, 12:07 PM
Easily better than both.

Really? He's only played 7 seasons. Frank's numbers through 8 were comparable on all levels. Then the injuries started to add up. If Pujols can maintain for the next 7 years his current stats, you have a point, but Ramirez has a comparable OPS and has been doing it a LOT longer.

If Pujols stays healthy you've got a point, but right now, Frank was just as good through 8 seasons as Pujols has been through 7 and Frank's best season crushes Pujols best season. It's just a damned shame they didn't finish 1994...

http://sports.espn.go.com/mlb/players/stats?playerId=2370

http://sports.espn.go.com/mlb/players/stats?playerId=4574

WhiteSoxFan84
02-08-2009, 12:08 PM
Easily better than both.

Yeh, he is. But is he as clean as Thomas? I love Pujols also but man... you just don't know. And his age has been in question also.

Let's hope he's legit and when 2011 rolls around, the White Sox better sign him! :redneck

Frontman
02-08-2009, 12:11 PM
Yeh, he is. But is he as clean as Thomas? I love Pujols also but man... you just don't know. And his age has been in question also.

Let's hope he's legit and when 2011 rolls around, the White Sox better sign him! :redneck

Honestly, how do we know if Thomas was clean as well? Like I said, he could of claimed he wanted to be tested all he wanted to; as the league AND the union clearly were not going to take him up on that offer. Now, I sure hope he's clean, I want to believe at least one guy who said he was clean was telling the truth, but man, A-Rod denied it too.

It's a shame we can't look at any one player and say "He was" or "He wasn't" without some form of doubt cast.

Craig Grebeck
02-08-2009, 12:17 PM
Really? He's only played 7 seasons. Frank's numbers through 8 were comparable on all levels. Then the injuries started to add up. If Pujols can maintain for the next 7 years his current stats, you have a point, but Ramirez has a comparable OPS and has been doing it a LOT longer.

If Pujols stays healthy you've got a point, but right now, Frank was just as good through 8 seasons as Pujols has been through 7 and Frank's best season crushes Pujols best season. It's just a damned shame they didn't finish 1994...

http://sports.espn.go.com/mlb/players/stats?playerId=2370

http://sports.espn.go.com/mlb/players/stats?playerId=4574
Pujols has played eight full seasons, and only three players (since 1901) have put up numbers comparable to Pujols in their first eight (Williams, Gehrig, Foxx). Frank absolutely fell off a cliff after his eighth season in the league (relative to the standards he has set for himself in the mid 1990s). If Pujols stays at this clip, no one can touch him.

Craig Grebeck
02-08-2009, 12:17 PM
Yeh, he is. But is he as clean as Thomas? I love Pujols also but man... you just don't know. And his age has been in question also.

Let's hope he's legit and when 2011 rolls around, the White Sox better sign him! :redneck
Well is Thomas clean? He's as clean as Pujols is, to my knowledge. If you want to accuse Pujols, accuse Thomas as well.

WhiteSoxFan84
02-08-2009, 12:29 PM
Well is Thomas clean? He's as clean as Pujols is, to my knowledge. If you want to accuse Pujols, accuse Thomas as well.

If Thomas was juicing, he was doing it his rookie year and the following 2-3 years. The guy looked more like a taller version of Jon Kruk than anything similar to Bonds, McGwire, A-Roid, or even... Pujols. He has a unique frame (taller and meatier) than those other guys. Pujols looks very similar to Roidriguez and Bail Bonds. Thomas? Not so much.

You know who I think will be named very soon as one of those who tested positive in 2003? Thomas' twin (same birthday, position, prime years, drafted within 4 rounds of each other, etc.), Jeff Bagwell.

Thomas has always had the best "I'm not on them" defense. When he said, "look at my sisters, we're a big family", he convinced me. The guy is legit. This is one guy I'll defend until I hear otherwise and it is confirmed.

About Pujols, again, I hope to God he's not on them because that guy is the best fit to be the face of the game. He can save it even if all these other cheaters are ruining it. But I think Pujols is clean especially when that list of names came out last time and some news outlet accidently included Pujols and he got so mad and so defensive that he considered legal action against them. Denying it and still having taken them isn't out of the realm of possibility (Rafael Palmeiro, Bonds, Sosa, etc.), but I think Pujols is clean.

But CG, do really believe that Sosa was clean??

Brian26
02-08-2009, 01:37 PM
This and That:

May take on the A-Rod situation is this. What does this do to Joe Torre's "legacy?"

Consider how Tony LaRussa is raked over the coals for his stance regarding McGwire, Canseco et al.....well it's a fact Torre was manager when Giambi was in New York, Torre was manager when Pettitte was in New York, Torre was manager when Clemens was in New York, Torre was manager when Rodriguez was in New York.

Did Joe not know or suspect a thing about what may have been going on?



Small point- the A-Rod story says he tested positive in 2003 when he was with the Rangers. The league-wide steroid-testing policy didn't go into effect until '04 as a result of more than 5% testing positive during the trial run in 2003. It is entirely possible that A-Rod has been clean since 2003 and never dabbled in the stuff after he went to the Yankees to begin the '04 season. I wouldn't blame Joe Torre for something Rodriguez did with the Rangers.

voodoochile
02-08-2009, 01:45 PM
Small point- the A-Rod story says he tested positive in 2003 when he was with the Rangers. The league-wide steroid-testing policy didn't go into effect until '04 as a result of more than 5% testing positive during the trial run in 2003. It is entirely possible that A-Rod has been clean since 2003 and never dabbled in the stuff after he went to the Yankees to begin the '04 season. I wouldn't blame Joe Torre for something Rodriguez did with the Rangers.

Torre did an interview with Larry King a few weeks back - right after his book came out. I caught a bit of it and King asked Torre directly about whether he knew any players were juicing. He hemmed and hawed and gave the whole "I don't invade player's privacy" spiel and denied "direct knowledge" of players using. He did point out that he wasn't blind to circumstantial evidence like guys adding a lot of muscle in a single off season, but in the end, he couldn't prove anything.

It's the same old song and dance that all the owners/management are giving. Since no one actually saw a player with a needle in their butt it's all good. :rolleyes:

october23sp
02-08-2009, 01:53 PM
All I can hope is that Griffey and Thomas are clean. My idols growing up, hell my idols now.

BleacherBandit
02-08-2009, 01:55 PM
Sometimes it pains me to think that my generation of baseball is a fraud, muddied by steroids and free agency. :(:

voodoochile
02-08-2009, 02:45 PM
Sometimes it pains me to think that my generation of baseball is a fraud, muddied by steroids and free agency. :(:

It's only your first generation. That's the beautiful thing about baseball. I've seen 3 "generations of players" come and go and I'm only 45. The stars of tomorrow are out there and most yet to be born for you. This will one day be forgotten as a sad waypoint in the long journey that baseball fandom is...

FedEx227
02-08-2009, 03:26 PM
All I can hope is that Griffey and Thomas are clean. My idols growing up, hell my idols now.

Don't make athletes your idols, you'll only be disappointed.

FedEx227
02-08-2009, 03:27 PM
Sometimes it pains me to think that my generation of baseball is a fraud, muddied by steroids and free agency. :(:

I kinda wish my generation was the one known for undying racism, collusion and gambling.

oeo
02-08-2009, 03:50 PM
The post that I quoted stated:


He was MVP caliber when he was in A. I know that isn't evidence that he doesn't use -- I personally see no reason to accuse him of it -- but the post made it seem like Pujols was some journeyman who roided up and made it to the majors. He's a once in a lifetime hitter, and we shouldn't assume guilt just because he may go down as the greatest right-handed hitter ever.

Well, that's what I thought of A-Rod, and now it's come out that at least one point in his career was not clean. I've defended them both, but if I had to guess between the two of them (before this stuff about A-Rod came out), I would have said Pujols was the one on the juice over A-Rod.

Viva Medias B's
02-08-2009, 05:07 PM
Kelly Wunsch was on the Score this morning with Jesse Rogers. Back in 2003, Wunsch was the MLBPA rep on the Sox. I thought he heard him say that all the Sox refused to take the test so that the 5% positive threshhold could easily be attained to trigger the mandatory testing.

Craig Grebeck
02-08-2009, 05:09 PM
But CG, do really believe that Sosa was clean??
Not necessarily, but up to this point nothing has surfaced suggesting he's definitely guilty.

soxfan43
02-08-2009, 06:43 PM
Don't make athletes your idols, you'll only be disappointed.


I think that's the moral of the story. THese guys are put up on pedestals and worshipped, but they are no better than the rest of society. I'm just sick of all this. When is it time to move on?

Lip Man 1
02-08-2009, 06:57 PM
Viva:

You are correct. That was the original motivation behind the possible attempt.

Lip

Paulwny
02-08-2009, 07:30 PM
I don't know the whole story but I think it's dumb to discredit this whole guys career because of one year. I want to here more about this before I even come close to compairing him with Bonds... A-Rod doesn't even look steroided up. :scratch:

He suppposedly tested positive for primobolan/methenolone, which improves strength and maintains lean muscle with minimal bulk development.

rustysurf83
02-08-2009, 07:46 PM
He suppposedly tested positive for primobolan/methenolone, which improves strength and maintains lean muscle with minimal bulk development.

Rdy,
You can't pass judgment because a guy looks or doesn't look roided up. As previously mentioned a baseball uniform hides a lot, and as Paul said there are many, many different types of ped's these guys can take. Half of the cyclists in the world are on some type of PED, but they certainly don't look roided up. Are the effects of what cyclists take as dramatic as hardcore roids??? No, but its still ****ing cheating.

JB98
02-08-2009, 08:15 PM
What if A-Rod came out and said, "Hey, I used the juice six years ago. I realize what I did was wrong. I haven't used it since, and I'm sorry." I bet this whole thing would all blow over.

Instead, these athletes just insult everyone with layer upon layer of lies. It's ridiculous.

Hell, Andy Pettitte admitted he used and people forgave him. Meanwhile, Bonds and Clemens keep going deeper and deeper into the abyss. Mistakes become worse when you just keep lying about it.

doublem23
02-08-2009, 08:27 PM
I think that's the moral of the story. THese guys are put up on pedestals and worshipped, but they are no better than the rest of society. I'm just sick of all this. When is it time to move on?

April 6.

Viva Medias B's
02-08-2009, 09:22 PM
WFAN is reporting that Rodriguez is out of the country and wants to confer with Scott Boras before he says anything about this.

october23sp
02-08-2009, 09:28 PM
Don't make athletes your idols, you'll only be disappointed.

I don't mean actual idols like I want to grow up to be like them. I'm 17, I have to be my own self but I mean when I look at the sport of baseball those are the favorite players.

kevin57
02-08-2009, 09:48 PM
What if A-Rod came out and said, "Hey, I used the juice six years ago. I realize what I did was wrong. I haven't used it since, and I'm sorry." I bet this whole thing would all blow over.

I would agree that the media frenzy would blow over, but A-Rod's aspirations for the HOF--hitherto a shoe-in if there ever was one--would be seriously jeopardized. You can bet he's pondering the Petitte vs. Clements route at this very moment.

Frontman
02-08-2009, 09:57 PM
Well, I guess if you assume that many, if not most are on something at some point in their career; it then lessens the sting that a player got caught. It's telling how we as fans look at the game. That list has 104 players on it, yet SI ran the story about one. Granted, he's probably the biggest name on the list, but given that there are 103 other players?

Hard just to blame him. I'd prefer to see the entire list at this point, then begin to judge. Just annoys me that A-rod, when given the chance, chose to lie.

FedEx227
02-08-2009, 09:59 PM
What if A-Rod came out and said, "Hey, I used the juice six years ago. I realize what I did was wrong. I haven't used it since, and I'm sorry." I bet this whole thing would all blow over.

Instead, these athletes just insult everyone with layer upon layer of lies. It's ridiculous.

Hell, Andy Pettitte admitted he used and people forgave him. Meanwhile, Bonds and Clemens keep going deeper and deeper into the abyss. Mistakes become worse when you just keep lying about it.

That's what I really want A-Rod to do.

"Yeah, I took them in 2003, dabbled in them and hated it, haven't done them since, I made a mistake and I hope you can forgive me."

WhiteSox5187
02-08-2009, 10:30 PM
That's what I really want A-Rod to do.

"Yeah, I took them in 2003, dabbled in them and hated it, haven't done them since, I made a mistake and I hope you can forgive me."
You know though, the guys who have admitted it (Roberts, Pettite) were certainly very good players, but didn't put up the gaudy HOF numbers that Clemens, Bonds and A-Rod. If A-Rod does apologize, I'mnot sure it will ever get him into the HOF.

voodoochile
02-08-2009, 10:42 PM
What if A-Rod came out and said, "Hey, I used the juice six years ago. I realize what I did was wrong. I haven't used it since, and I'm sorry." I bet this whole thing would all blow over.

Instead, these athletes just insult everyone with layer upon layer of lies. It's ridiculous.

Hell, Andy Pettitte admitted he used and people forgave him. Meanwhile, Bonds and Clemens keep going deeper and deeper into the abyss. Mistakes become worse when you just keep lying about it.

Pettit came across as honest when he came clean. Bonds has a mountain of proof against him that he was using lots of PED's for an extended period of time so not much he can say will clear him. Roger threw his wife under the bus and then sued McNamee. The feds are getting ready to indict him for purjury apparently, so he's gonna go down hard and it looks like he's going down fighting, so fans won't defend him. He looks like an ass because he is an ass...

ARod might not be able to say that truthfully and might be holding off so he doesn't dig himself a bigger hole. If he says, "I only did it once" and then someone proves he did it more than once, then he's really screwed. Better to say nothing and let people think you a fool than to open your mouth and prove it...

Bobby Thigpen
02-08-2009, 10:44 PM
Don't make athletes your idols, you'll only be disappointed.
What about Sweetness?

FedEx227
02-08-2009, 10:53 PM
What about Sweetness?

We're having a discussion about players taking steroids, so I guess that fits.

Great person no doubt absolutely the nicest athlete I've ever met in my life, but you should never have an athlete be your idol, it's entirely worthless.

Bobby Thigpen
02-08-2009, 11:48 PM
I was just making a statement about not having athletes as your idols. As far as I know, Sweetness was a quality human being.

Just because the majority of them seem to be weiners doesn't mean they all are.

Save McCuddy's
02-09-2009, 12:30 AM
:noevil:

Please, no talk of Sweetness.

Next thing you know, there'll be talk of how Christ was able to roll such a large boulder from in front of his tomb after being mostly dead all weekend.

BleacherBandit
02-09-2009, 12:35 AM
I was just making a statement about not having athletes as your idols. As far as I know, Sweetness was a quality human being.

Just because the majority of them seem to be weiners doesn't mean they all are.

You don't have to idolize an athlete because of their athletisism. I 'idolize' Roberto Clemente because of what he did for charity. Is that wrong?

spawn
02-09-2009, 08:01 AM
I don't know if this has been mentioned, and I'll probably get jumped on for my opinion, but oh well. This is in no way a defense of A-Rod or anyone that has done steroids. As a baseball fan, it is disappointing knowing these players took an illegal substance to help gain an advantage over his fellow players. But the part that bugs me in all of this is these were suppose to be anonymous tests. And here we are, 6 years later, and a name has been released. I think that part of it is bull****. The tests were done to see if mandatory testing was needed, with promise of anonymity and no punishment for positive tests. If I'm a professional athlete, why the hell would I agree to do anything with the promise of anonymity? Again, I'm not defending A-Rod in t his. I just think the way it was revealed is wrong.

soxfanatlanta
02-09-2009, 09:38 AM
I don't know if this has been mentioned, and I'll probably get jumped on for my opinion, but oh well. This is in no way a defense of A_Rod or anyone that has done steroids. As a baseball fan, it is disappointing knowing these players took an illegal substance to help gain an advantage over his fellow players. But the part that bugs me in all of this is these were suppose to be anonymous tests. And here we are, 6 years later, and a name has been released. I think that part of it is bull****. The tests were done to see if mandatory testing was needed, with promise of anonymity and no punishment for positive tests. If I'm a professional athlete, why the hell would I agree to do anything with the promise of anonymity? Again, I'm not defending A-Rod in t his. I just think the way it was revealed is wrong.


That is a good point. Is there any legal action that the MLB Players Association can take against those who leaked this info?

voodoochile
02-09-2009, 09:57 AM
That is a good point. Is there any legal action that the MLB Players Association can take against those who leaked this info?

That would be the feds. Bad idea to sue the feds for releasing information that you broke the law...

spawn
02-09-2009, 10:15 AM
That would be the feds. Bad idea to sue the feds for releasing information that you broke the law...
I don't think he's saying A-Rod should sue...he's saying the MLBPA should. I just find it disturbing that more people are pissed about A-Rod than about the fact this information, which the MLBPA and MLB weren't allowed to release per court order, was leaked in the first place. And now, per the same court order, neither the MLBPA or MLB are allowed to confirm or deny the story.

Lip Man 1
02-09-2009, 10:57 AM
The bigger question now is what does Proud To Be Your Bud do?

http://www.suntimes.com/sports/deluca/1420141,CST-SPT-deluca09.article

Lip

kitekrazy
02-09-2009, 11:04 AM
I was just making a statement about not having athletes as your idols. As far as I know, Sweetness was a quality human being.

Just because the majority of them seem to be weiners doesn't mean they all are.

Every great accomplishment in modern day baseball brings up the suspicion of steroids. That's the real damage.

jabrch
02-09-2009, 12:11 PM
:noevil:

Please, no talk of Sweetness.

Next thing you know, there'll be talk of how Christ was able to roll such a large boulder from in front of his tomb after being mostly dead all weekend.


Can he hit a curve ball? Can he play CF? If so, he'd be our saviour this year. :D:

jabrch
02-09-2009, 12:12 PM
The bigger question now is what does Proud To Be Your Bud do?


Lip

Lip - you call him that all the time - what exactly does that mean. I don't get it. Is that humor? Or is there something to it that I don't understand?

Konerko05
02-09-2009, 12:30 PM
Kelly Wunsch was on the Score this morning with Jesse Rogers. Back in 2003, Wunsch was the MLBPA rep on the Sox. I thought he heard him say that all the Sox refused to take the test so that the 5% positive threshhold could easily be attained to trigger the mandatory testing.

I remember that happening. I thought it was very odd at the time.

Now it makes sense to me. I'm sure some players on the Sox were using steroids in 2003. The players using steroids refused to test out of fear these results would eventually surface. The players not using steroids refused to test to help implement mandatory testing. Both sides win. Smart team.

Marqhead
02-09-2009, 12:36 PM
Lip - you call him that all the time - what exactly does that mean. I don't get it. Is that humor? Or is there something to it that I don't understand?

He's more interested in making everyone around him happy, than doing what is right for the game.

areilly
02-09-2009, 12:53 PM
Lip - you call him that all the time - what exactly does that mean. I don't get it. Is that humor? Or is there something to it that I don't understand?

I know that was the Budweiser slogan for a while in the early 90s.

chisox616
02-09-2009, 01:34 PM
Well. He says he did them. He said it was a stupid mistake but he did them from 2001-2003...

Marqhead
02-09-2009, 01:34 PM
http://sports.espn.go.com/mlb/news/story?id=3894847

Arod comes clean.

Viva Medias B's
02-09-2009, 01:42 PM
ESPN is wetting its pants.

doublem23
02-09-2009, 01:49 PM
Meh, I'd forgive him.

JohnTucker0814
02-09-2009, 01:51 PM
Well. He says he did them. He said it was a stupid mistake but he did them from 2001-2003...

At least he came clean about how long he was taking them... he didn't say a la Andy Pettitte, I took them 1 time, it was a stupid mistake, but I only did it once. Yeah, Andy, I'm sure you only took the needle once!

Viva Medias B's
02-09-2009, 01:51 PM
Is this the beginning of the "I'm sorry" media blitz?