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MaggPipes
05-24-2002, 09:27 PM
Can we put up with Carlos Lee in LF? Sure he is yet to make an error this year, but he IS HITTING .240!!!!!! That sucks.....and he has not hit for the much power.....man you have to wonder what Liefer would do if he got all of C. Lee's at-bats........

MattSharp
05-24-2002, 09:53 PM
Personally I would prefer Rowands precense in LF. I think he is one of the more underrated Sox players, where Leifer is one of the more overrated......

Daver
05-24-2002, 09:57 PM
Originally posted by MattSharp
Personally I would prefer Rowands precense in LF. I think he is one of the more underrated Sox players, where Leifer is one of the more overrated......

Leifer is a good PH.....

SOXSINCE'70
05-24-2002, 10:17 PM
I've always been a Rowand guy.Lenny really missed the opportunity to deal "The Butcher" this offseason.I'd even take Leifer,for God's sake.


:simas

"I may be on my way back to the South Side.Stay Tuned!!"

Mathew
05-24-2002, 10:45 PM
Originally posted by MaggPipes
Can we put up with Carlos Lee in LF? Sure he is yet to make an error this year, but he IS HITTING .240!!!!!! That sucks.....and he has not hit for the much power.....man you have to wonder what Liefer would do if he got all of C. Lee's at-bats........

If you think a good Leifer is better than a bad Carlos, you're mistaken.

WinningUgly!
05-24-2002, 11:40 PM
Originally posted by MaggPipes
Can we put up with Carlos Lee in LF? Sure he is yet to make an error this year, but he IS HITTING .240!!!!!! That sucks.....and he has not hit for the much power.....man you have to wonder what Liefer would do if he got all of C. Lee's at-bats........

Carlos Lee's .240 batting average is not a problem...as long as our starting pitching stays as good as it has been the last 3 games. :D:

pearso66
05-25-2002, 12:22 AM
ive read on espn.com, and i know, its espn, but ive erad that they might be shopping lee for another pitcher, whether that is starting or relief is not known, but hey its a start, and just as someone said, leifer would be jsut as good, hey, maybe they could bring up borchard and throw him in left, or right, and put maggs in left

baggio202
05-25-2002, 12:59 AM
it makes no sense to play lee over liefer if all lee can muster is a 240 BA...we know liefer will hit atleast that with more power and he is head and shoulders above carlos defensively..i mean liefer actually gets off his ass and back up bases and kenny lofton...when is the last time you saw a hit down the rf line and lee hustling over to back up third???...liefer has already save two runs this year backing up..last one was nomar's triple off the wall..if lief didnt back up lofton its an inside the parker...that alone is worth more than carlos...carlos has had his chances...he and paul showed up the same time and look at the difference in their careers...its time for someone else..i prefere liefer..but rownd is fine too..both guys hustle bigtime

Garrison
05-25-2002, 12:11 PM
In Garland's win against the BoSox, Liefer was awesome defensively. He showed a lot of hustle and that he can move a lot better than Carlos. He caught everything that went his way and some. We know he can bat better than Carlos. Not all star numbers or anything, but he can do it. With more power too. I wouldn't mind Rowand in left either. When he gets going at the plate he's a good 'un and we know he could handle the left field defense easily. I doubt Carlos would crash into any walls for a fly balls.

:caballo
"What? You mean like.....move?"

KruseControl04
05-25-2002, 12:15 PM
Originally posted by Garrison
In Garland's win against the BoSox, Liefer was awesome defensively. He showed a lot of hustle and that he can move a lot better than Carlos. He caught everything that went his way and some. We know he can bat better than Carlos. Not all star numbers or anything, but he can do it. With more power too. I wouldn't mind Rowand in left either. When he gets going at the plate he's a good 'un and we know he could handle the left field defense easily. I doubt Carlos would crash into any walls for a fly balls.

:caballo
"What? You mean like.....move?"

I've been a big fan of C. Lee ever since the game where he became the first White Sox to homer in his first Major League at bat. It was at that point I said, "Damn, this guy's gonna be good." We've seen that C. Lee can hit, so lets just give him some time.

Randar68
05-25-2002, 12:34 PM
Originally posted by KruseControl04


I've been a big fan of C. Lee ever since the game where he became the first White Sox to homer in his first Major League at bat. It was at that point I said, "Damn, this guy's gonna be good." We've seen that C. Lee can hit, so lets just give him some time.

Finally someone with some brains.

If anyone on this board thinks Rowand or Liefer are better everyday players, they are smoking crack. This reminds me of all the people calling for Frank's head earlier in this season.

Take your :prozac and freakin relax. Hitting is not our problem and carlos is adequate defensively.

If you want to make a move, LTP is now hitting .292 in AAA. Maggs to left, LTP in Right. If they deal Carlos at the deadline, I'd rather see that than to see Rowand OR Liefer starting.

Zednem700
05-25-2002, 12:57 PM
Originally posted by baggio202
it makes no sense to play lee over liefer if all lee can muster is a 240 BA...we know liefer will hit atleast that with more power and he is head and shoulders above carlos defensively


Well as of right now Liefer has a .222 batting average with the grand total of one extra base hit so I don't see much of an improvement. Over the course of their respective major league careers, Liefer's highest obp was .313 last year. Carlos Lee's lowest was .312 his rookie season. Carlos is two years younger, and has been widely considered the better prospect by scouts. most people consider Liefer to be a decent left hander off the bench.

As far as defense goes, I am not conviced that Liefer is much of an improvement. Carlos's career range factor (admittedly a less than perfect metric, but all I have at the moment) in left field is 1.92 while the league average at the position was 2.04 over the same time period. Liefer's RF in left is 1.51 compared to a 2.02 league average. Its even worse in right, .92 to 2.08 yikes. That's a small number of games though, so sample size has to play a part, if he were really that bad he would make Greg Luzinski look like Andruw Jones. So there's no real reason to believe that Liefer would be a defensive upgrade over Carlos. Neither is a defensive superstar, they're probably pretty close to equally bad.

One last point. I was at Garland's game in Boston. Liefer looked HORRIBLE out there. On tv you don't see the path's people take to balls or their first step or anything like that. Believe me when I say that Liefer was taking bad routes, and he looked bad settling under the ball. I was absolutely convinced he was going to drop one fly ball and was incredibly relieved when he managed to hold on.

doublem23
05-25-2002, 01:01 PM
Our offense DOES NOT need fixing.

FarWestChicago
05-25-2002, 01:12 PM
Originally posted by Garrison
Liefer was awesome defensively.Now there's an oxymoron... :D:

DrCrawdad
05-25-2002, 02:36 PM
I'm quite sure that Leifer would do better that .220 if he was a regular. Again, with Leifer's defense in LF - IMHO Jeff's better than CLee. I think Jeff hustles more than CLee and Jeff plays smarter D.

Jeff may have made a bad play in Fenway's LF, but it's not exactly the easiest LF. As has been mentioned, I've seen Jeff save runs by his hustle to back up throws to third.

Then there was the time Jeff was at third with the bases loaded. A grounder was hit to Eric Chavez at third. Jeff ran and slid to the inside of the plate. The ball got by the catcher and Jeff scored. I believe that later others scored as well.

I'd like to see the Sox platoon Liefer and Lee.

-DrCrawdad.

baggio202
05-25-2002, 02:41 PM
Originally posted by Zednem700



Well as of right now Liefer has a .222 batting average with the grand total of one extra base hit so I don't see much of an improvement. Over the course of their respective major league careers, Liefer's highest obp was .313 last year. Carlos Lee's lowest was .312 his rookie season. Carlos is two years younger, and has been widely considered the better prospect by scouts. most people consider Liefer to be a decent left hander off the bench.

As far as defense goes, I am not conviced that Liefer is much of an improvement. Carlos's career range factor (admittedly a less than perfect metric, but all I have at the moment) in left field is 1.92 while the league average at the position was 2.04 over the same time period. Liefer's RF in left is 1.51 compared to a 2.02 league average. Its even worse in right, .92 to 2.08 yikes. That's a small number of games though, so sample size has to play a part, if he were really that bad he would make Greg Luzinski look like Andruw Jones. So there's no real reason to believe that Liefer would be a defensive upgrade over Carlos. Neither is a defensive superstar, they're probably pretty close to equally bad.

One last point. I was at Garland's game in Boston. Liefer looked HORRIBLE out there. On tv you don't see the path's people take to balls or their first step or anything like that. Believe me when I say that Liefer was taking bad routes, and he looked bad settling under the ball. I was absolutely convinced he was going to drop one fly ball and was incredibly relieved when he managed to hold on.

i dont think its fair to compare liefer to lee this year when liefer gets one at bat every 3 days...last year when liefer played atleast semi - regularly he hit a home run every 14 at bats or something like that...he has a long swing and thats not condusive to riding the pinwe for a week then getting 3 at bats..he needs to atleast platoon to stay sharp...

im not saying liefer is the next barry bonds but he is alot better than carlos lee..atleast he hustles..as for OBP...be sure you subtract all the times lee has been picked off base from that total..it would probably cut it in half :smile: ...face it..lee's baseball instincts are pathetic...

lee showed up here the same time konerko did...2 years ago they both put up similiar numbers...when people would talk trades at that time some wouls want to ttrade lee and other konerko...2 years later look at the difference...konerko has steadily improved while lee has similiarily taken the opposite path...he is not getting any better...each year his his average has dropped steadily...

lee might develop into a great hitter someday...but im tired of waiting...isnt he two years away from free agency???...do we wait for him to have a great 2nd half the last year of his contract..feel we must sign him and then hope he doesnt backslide???...and even if he does develop into a great hitter he will always stink in the field and will never even be a below average base runner...and because baseball is structured where 905 of your financial worth is based on offensive stats carlos lee will always be paid more than he can produce on the field...is he worth what we are paying him now???

voodoochile
05-25-2002, 02:57 PM
Originally posted by FarWestChicago
Now there's an oxymoron... :D:

Not necessarily...

If we use Nellie's definition of awesome, it makes sense, because Leifer's defense inspires fear in me and makes me respect Carlos that much more...

:D:

FarWestChicago
05-25-2002, 03:11 PM
Originally posted by voodoochile


Not necessarily...

If we use Nellie's definition of awesome, it makes sense, because Leifer's defense inspires fear in me and makes me respect Carlos that much more...

:D: You got me, voodoo!!! :cool:

GASHWOUND
05-25-2002, 04:31 PM
Originally posted by Garrison
In Garland's win against the BoSox, Liefer was awesome defensively. He showed a lot of hustle and that he can move a lot better than Carlos. He caught everything that went his way and some. We know he can bat better than Carlos. Not all star numbers or anything, but he can do it. With more power too. I wouldn't mind Rowand in left either. When he gets going at the plate he's a good 'un and we know he could handle the left field defense easily. I doubt Carlos would crash into any walls for a fly balls.

:caballo
"What? You mean like.....move?"

What is wrong with everbody? This is probably Lee's best defensive year to date. He's made some great catches this year, including going over the wall to save a HR, some divng catches..etc So Lee has made all the plays in LF this year. And I don't Lee is gonna hit .240 all year, so at some point Lee will get hot and go on a roll..Lets be patient