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View Full Version : Joe Torre rips into the Yankees


DumpJerry
01-25-2009, 04:44 PM
http://msn.foxsports.com/mlb/story/9130146?MSNHPHCP&GT1=39002

Calls A-Rod "A-Fraud" among other things. Sounds like he really unloads on the Yankee players and brass in his book.

WhiteSoxFan84
01-25-2009, 05:37 PM
http://msn.foxsports.com/mlb/story/9130146?MSNHPHCP&GT1=39002

Calls A-Rod "A-Fraud" among other things. Sounds like he really unloads on the Yankee players and brass in his book.

I think you or the person that wrote the story misread it. I didn't click on the link or read it, but I did see this story on ESPN. Torre said that his teammates called him "A-Fraud" and that he was obsessed with Derek Jeter.

thomas35forever
01-25-2009, 06:08 PM
Should be a good read. It'll also put an end to any future relations between Torre and the Yankees.

Frontman
01-25-2009, 06:12 PM
Should be a good read. It'll also put an end to any future relations between Torre and the Yankees.

Hate to say it, but the Yankees did that after snubbing him last season with all the events closing out Yankee Stadium. If Torre wasn't bitter before then, he definately had a right to be afterwards.

cwsfannick
01-25-2009, 06:36 PM
Hate to say it, but the Yankees did that after snubbing him last season with all the events closing out Yankee Stadium. If Torre wasn't bitter before then, he definately had a right to be afterwards.

Something tells me that the Yankees were already aware Torre was writting this book and and that is the reason they snubbed him.

oeo
01-25-2009, 06:43 PM
I think you or the person that wrote the story misread it. I didn't click on the link or read it, but I did see this story on ESPN. Torre said that his teammates called him "A-Fraud" and that he was obsessed with Derek Jeter.

That is exactly what the linked article says.

WhiteSoxFan84
01-25-2009, 06:52 PM
That is exactly what the linked article says.

Ok. I didn't read the article. Just what the original poster said.

oeo
01-25-2009, 07:04 PM
Just what the original poster said.

I know, I noticed it as well.

Lefty34
01-25-2009, 07:38 PM
It says that Torre had to try to get a winning performance from A-Rod? The dude has had an OPS+ of 130+ every year since coming to the Yankees and an OPS+ of 150 or above 3 out of those 6 years!

whitesox901
01-25-2009, 11:52 PM
I would expect more class out of Torre

Slats
01-26-2009, 12:11 AM
It says that Torre had to try to get a winning performance from A-Rod? The dude has had an OPS+ of 130+ every year since coming to the Yankees and an OPS+ of 150 or above 3 out of those 6 years!

And a .244 postseason batting average since he's been a Yankee.
No rings.

I think that was what Torre was referring to.

jabrch
01-26-2009, 12:12 AM
It says that Torre had to try to get a winning performance from A-Rod? The dude has had an OPS+ of 130+ every year since coming to the Yankees and an OPS+ of 150 or above 3 out of those 6 years!


So either...

A) Joe Torre knows nothing about baseball

or

B) There's a lot more to winning than OPS+

cards press box
01-26-2009, 12:58 AM
And so the boring and pointless Yankee soap opera continues. Isn't it bad enough that the Yanks' bloated payroll has set the entire baseball industry on collision course with a strike (or lockout) in 2011? Now, Joe Torre has to tell the world that Brian Cashman and the Steinbrenners are jerks. What is the news here? Cashman (and the Yankee fan base) are imperious and hard to take. The Steinbrenners? Everyone already knows that they are jerks. Of course, one could credit Torre for ripping the face off of the Yankees' whole fraudulent facade. On the other hand, he never complained about prima donna players or anything else obnoxious about the Yankees during his well-paid tenure as manager. To some degree, he was the caretaker for a team whose infield budget exceeded most teams' entire payroll. He never complained about that and I don't imagine he is doing so now. Torre, therefore, seems to be somewhat selective regarding his criticism of the Yankees' dysfunctional operation. No complaints about the Yankees destroying competitive balance, just about how mean they were to him. Geez.

I wish the whole Yankee subculture would just shut up.

Nellie_Fox
01-26-2009, 12:59 AM
There's a lot more to winning than OPS+No way! Can't be!

4 points
01-26-2009, 01:09 AM
I would expect more class out of Torre

My thoughts exactly.

EuroSox35
01-26-2009, 01:25 AM
I find this kind of weird. At least wait until you're done coaching. I'm sure some of his current or possible future players are turned off by this, especially with so much emphasis on the clubhouse 'fraternity' and the whole 'what happens in the lockerroom stays in the lockerroom' aspect of sports.

Something seems off though, with the way it was first reported, it sounded like this was a Torre biography or tell all, but after reading the updated links, it's just Tom Verducci's Yankees book and those quotes were just from his interviews or questions from Torre. There's also the Cashman quote about them already talking about this over the phone and their relationship being great ('way until it actually comes out'), I wouldn't be surprised if the NY media is also stretching or running with some parts of this

Save McCuddy's
01-26-2009, 09:44 AM
My thoughts exactly.

I was counting on Joe to be bigger than that. Now he won't be able to gloat as gracefully when Girardi falls flat on his face.

khan
01-26-2009, 09:56 AM
Who cares?

A blind, drunk money should be able to win with a quarter-billion dollars spent on major and minor league players. Given that there were more than their fair share of Mitchell Report players in his rosters, he should've won MORE than he did.

Joe Torre = Overrated.

Thome25
01-26-2009, 09:59 AM
A-Fraud?!.....LOVE IT!!! Absolutely ****ing LOVE IT!!

Fenway
01-26-2009, 10:10 AM
I think the gloves came off when NYY snubbed him at the last Stadium game. To not even include him on the video was an insult.

What I found interesting is that he said Francona was his match. Torre in an excerpt in the Globe wrote how he knew after Game 5 of the 2004 ALCS they Yankees were in trouble. About the 2003 ALCS he was shocked to see Grady Little panic.

He also admitted that not having Don Zimmer around most likely cost NYY at least one more Series win.

oeo
01-26-2009, 10:13 AM
Who cares?

A blind, drunk money should be able to win with a quarter-billion dollars spent on major and minor league players. Given that there were more than their fair share of Mitchell Report players in his rosters, he should've won MORE than he did.

Joe Torre = Overrated.

Joe Girardi couldn't do it. :dunno:

Torre may have worked with a team with a huge payroll, but a)all of them had huge egos to combat with and b)a lot of them were not even worth the money they were receiving. There's more to managing than filling out a lineup card. In fact, I'd say it's what is done behind the scenes that has the biggest impact.

spawn
01-26-2009, 10:17 AM
I think we need to hold off on commenting until the book is actually released. I was listening to ESPN this morning, and from the sounds of it, the NY Post is sensationalising the book big time, and that Torre doesn't do any name calling or finger pointing. His is a 3rd person perspective. I have a lot of respect for Torre, so I'm going to give him the benefit of the doubt.

khan
01-26-2009, 10:42 AM
Joe Girardi couldn't do it. :dunno:
He had the young pitching staff that Torre NEVER had to deal with in his time in NY. Funny, then, that cashman, et. al went back to their profligate ways after "Girardi couldn't do it."

Now, IF "Girardi can't do it" with this massive salary allotment to the rotation, then he too will be overrated. But hereto fore, Girardi's task has been far more difficult than anything that Torre had to do.


Torre may have worked with a team with a huge payroll, but a)all of them had huge egos to combat with and b)a lot of them were not even worth the money they were receiving. There's more to managing than filling out a lineup card. In fact, I'd say it's what is done behind the scenes that has the biggest impact.

Sure. But its a lot harder to try to win with the Pirate's roster/money than that of the Yankee's. In fact, I'll call near-to-impossible, even with Tampa's recent success. [Though, again, they didn't win the WS.] Baseball's history is littered with champions that had huge egos to match huge salaries.

I maintain that the fact that Torre couldn't get it done [EDIT] since 2000, despite his decided advantages shows that he is OVERRATED. I won't bother to list chapter and verse of all the steroid cheaters in his teams that were in the Mitchell Report, either...

areilly
01-26-2009, 11:42 AM
I was listening to ESPN this morning, and from the sounds of it, the NY Post is sensationalising the book big time, and that Torre doesn't do any name calling or finger pointing.

Verducci actually speaks to this same idea today on SI.com:

link (http://sportsillustrated.cnn.com/2009/baseball/mlb/01/25/verducci.qa/index.html?eref=T1)

oeo
01-26-2009, 12:05 PM
He had the young pitching staff that Torre NEVER had to deal with in his time in NY. Funny, then, that cashman, et. al went back to their profligate ways after "Girardi couldn't do it."

Torre had a pitching staff of scraps, for the most part, his last few years and still made the postseason. Those scraps hurt them in the postseason, but he still found a way to make it there.

I maintain that the fact that Torre couldn't get it done, despite his decided advantages shows that he is OVERRATED.

You still have nothing to prove that even a "drunk monkey" could do what Torre did.

Their payroll became quite irrelevant his last few years. Yes, there were guys making a lot of money, but a lot were also a)not healthy, b)showing they were on the juice, c)not achieving at the level the Yankees planned.

khan
01-26-2009, 12:36 PM
Torre had a pitching staff of scraps, for the most part, his last few years and still made the postseason.

Yeah, Pettitte and Clemens and Mike Mussina and Jaret Wright and Chien Ming Wang were "scraps," right?

I disagree with you here. Each and every one of the SPs that were signed to the Yankees were signed at the peak of their value, except for perhaps Wang. Additionally, adding A-Rod to a steroid-fuelled offense and trading for Randy Johnson weren't exactly "scraps," either.

You still have nothing to prove that even a "drunk monkey" could do what Torre did.

Sure: Look at Torre's record without George Steinbrenner's money/Kirk Radomski's steroids, and look at his record without the money and juice. Cheating and having more money than anyone else made Torre into a myth.

Their payroll became quite irrelevant his last few years.

Disagreed. Many White Sox fans would LOVE to have the Yankees' "irrelevant" payroll. Heck, there are ~20 to 25 other fanbases that would love to have the Yankees' "irrelevant" payroll.

Eddo144
01-26-2009, 12:45 PM
And a .244 postseason batting average since he's been a Yankee.
No rings.

I think that was what Torre was referring to.
Since 2004 (when Rodriguez joined the Yankees), here are the postseason numbers for both Rodriguez and Jeter.

Rodriguez: .245/.372/.436, 4 HR, 9 RBI, 6 2B, 3 GIDP
Jeter: .291/.345/.466, 4 HR, 16 RBI, 6 2B, 5 GIDP

A-Rod sure was the problem, though.

Eddo144
01-26-2009, 12:46 PM
So either...

A) Joe Torre knows nothing about baseball

or

B) There's a lot more to winning than OPS+
Well sure, there's a lot more to winning that OPS+, but are you seriously trying to imply that Rodriguez did not contribute to winning for the Yankees? He was the single best player on the team from 2004-2008.

Paulwny
01-26-2009, 12:50 PM
c)not achieving at the level the Yankees planned.


So when players live up to expectations the manager gets the credit, but when they don't live up to expectations it's the players fault.

oeo
01-26-2009, 01:14 PM
Yeah, Pettitte and Clemens and Mike Mussina and Jaret Wright and Chien Ming Wang were "scraps," right?

Three of those four have been about all they've had over the past 3-4 years that have been worth a damn. Jaret Wright was a scrap, I don't know what you're talking about there. How about Weaver, Contreras (when he was there), Lieber, Brown, Pavano, Ponson, whatever other crap they brought up, etc? Well-paid? Sure. Oft-injured or just downright bad? Definitely.

I disagree with you here. Each and every one of the SPs that were signed to the Yankees were signed at the peak of their value, except for perhaps Wang.Getting signed after a career year is poor evaluation by the Yankees as an organization. Torre then had to put up with multi-million dollar men who were either not that good or never pitched.

Additionally, adding A-Rod to a steroid-fuelled offense and trading for Randy Johnson weren't exactly "scraps," either.When did I mention the offense? :?:

Disagreed. Many White Sox fans would LOVE to have the Yankees' "irrelevant" payroll. Heck, there are ~20 to 25 other fanbases that would love to have the Yankees' "irrelevant" payroll.This isn't pick and choose what you want to read. I explained why it was irrelevant in Torre's final years, and you chose to ignore it. It's not what you spend, it's how you spend it. The Yankees have spent their money foolishly, and it's hurt them quite a bit.

So when players live up to expectations the manager gets the credit, but when they don't live up to expectations it's the players fault.

Did I say that? It's my belief that managers get too much credit/too much blame. It's always on the players, IMO. Most of the in-game strategy has a lot to do with your opinion on the situation. Most decisions you could go either way on...and sometimes you look like a genius, while others you look like a ****ing moron. Technically, you could say all managers are 'overrated,' but then what would you be basing your ratings on?

Lefty34
01-26-2009, 01:20 PM
And a .244 postseason batting average since he's been a Yankee.



That is through 94 AB's, a pretty small sample size, to say the least. I will take the stats he has put up through the 2,871 regular-season AB's he has had as a Yankee. In those AB's A-Rod is batting .302, and since joining the Yankees he has averaged a .400 OBP. He has really sucked as a Yankee

No rings.
Far be it from me to defend A-Rod for not being a good enough pitcher or outfielder or catcher in the post-season.

I think that was what Torre was referring to.Well, if that really is what Torre was referring to, and he puts any stock into those statements whatsoever, then he actually might know a lot less about baseball than people think.

Paulwny
01-26-2009, 01:37 PM
Did I say that? It's my belief that managers get too much credit/too much blame. It's always on the players, IMO. Most of the in-game strategy has a lot to do with your opinion on the situation. Most decisions you could go either way on...and sometimes you look like a genius, while others you look like a ****ing moron. Technically, you could say all managers are 'overrated,' but then what would you be basing your ratings on?


I'd base my ratings on the Gardenhire qualities.
I wouldn't base them on a guy, Torre, who basically filled out a line up card of all stars and then later in the game stumbles out of the dugout, goes to the mound and points to Rivera.

areilly
01-26-2009, 01:38 PM
Yeah, Pettitte and Clemens and Mike Mussina and Jaret Wright and Chien Ming Wang were "scraps," right?

Jaret Wright might be the very definition of a Yankee scrap acquisition.


Sure: Look at Torre's record without George Steinbrenner's money/Kirk Radomski's steroids, and look at his record without the money and juice. Cheating and having more money than anyone else made Torre into a myth.

I think you mean Brian McNamee (different person) and hormone injections (different means of padding numbers). Likewise, you could argue that every single World Series-winning manager between 1995 and 2004 owes a good deal of their success to the juice, so this is at best only a half-correct theory.

khan
01-26-2009, 02:03 PM
Three of those four have been about all they've had over the past 3-4 years that have been worth a damn.

And they weren't exactly "scrap."

Jaret Wright was a scrap, I don't know what you're talking about there.

15-8 and a 3.28 ERA the year before he was signed doesn't sound like "scrap" to me. We'd LOVE IT if KW were to sign a SP with such numbers today.

How about Weaver, Contreras (when he was there), Lieber, Brown, Pavano, Ponson, whatever other crap they brought up, etc? Well-paid? Sure. Oft-injured or just downright bad? Definitely.

Contreras was a highly-regarded Cuban defector when he was signed.
Kevin Brown was a six-time All Star when he was traded to NY.
Pavano was highly-hyped, but DID come off a very strong World Series/postseason the year before he was signed.
Weaver, Ponson, and Lieber were just as much filler as Pettitte, Clemens, Contreras, Brown, and Pavano were highly-regarded FAs.

Getting signed after a career year is poor evaluation by the Yankees as an organization. Torre then had to put up with multi-million dollar men who were either not that good or never pitched.

Indeed. So NOW you're trying to pitch the idea that Torre was successful despite the profligate spending, not because of it? Sorry, Torre sucked before Steinbrenner, Radomski, and McNamee gave him the best team money and steroids could buy.


The Yankees have spent their money foolishly, and it's hurt them quite a bit.

The Pirates have spent their money foolishly as well. The difference is that they've spent hundreds of millions LESS than Torre's Yankees.

khan
01-26-2009, 02:12 PM
Jaret Wright might be the very definition of a Yankee scrap acquisition.
Again: If KW signed a SP with a 2008 record of 15-8 and an ERA of 3.28, most here would be excited. 15-8 and 3.28 were Wright's numbers the year prior to signing in New York for [then] big money.

At the time of acquisition, I disagree the terming of Wright as "scrap." His subsequent performance is another matter, however. [And perhaps in part due to Torre being unable to get the best out of Wright. And Contreras. And others.]

I think you mean Brian McNamee (different person) and hormone injections (different means of padding numbers). Likewise, you could argue that every single World Series-winning manager between 1995 and 2004 owes a good deal of their success to the juice, so this is at best only a half-correct theory.

Actually, BOTH McNamee and Radomski provided some of the cheating cheaters in the Yankees their hormones AND steroids.

However, I'm only pointing out that there were MORE Yankees in the Mitchell Report from Torre's tenure than there were from any other team. That there were more users of PED while in the Yankee uniform than in other rosters. Torre's record is therefore MORE tainted than other managers, IMO. It is true that every team had juicers in their roster. Torre's teams had more.

areilly
01-26-2009, 02:39 PM
Again: If KW signed a SP with a 2008 record of 15-8 and an ERA of 3.28, most here would be excited. 15-8 and 3.28 were Wright's numbers the year prior to signing in New York for [then] big money.

At the time of acquisition, I disagree the terming of Wright as "scrap." His subsequent performance is another matter, however. [And perhaps in part due to Torre being unable to get the best out of Wright. And Contreras. And others.]



Jaret Wright, starting pitcher, made 22 starts combined in 2001, 2002 and 2003, and only three times in his seven seasons had Jaret Wright, starting pitcher, made more than 20 starts. He had a good season in his contract year and cashed in, and I don't fault him for it, but you can't honestly say a pitcher with that kind of a track record is an acquisition you can count on.


Actually, BOTH McNamee and Radomski provided some of the cheating cheaters in the Yankees their hormones AND steroids.

However, I'm only pointing out that there were MORE Yankees in the Mitchell Report from Torre's tenure than there were from any other team. That there were more users of PED while in the Yankee uniform than in other rosters. Torre's record is therefore MORE tainted than other managers, IMO. It is true that every team had juicers in their roster. Torre's teams had more.

You present an interesting paradox here, as the Yankees of that era made an effort to acquire the best players available by any means necessary. We all know, or can at least make a semi-educated guess, what percentage of players of that caliber were not on the level; did they become cheaters because they were Yankees, or did they become Yankees because they cheated?

Khan, that might be the most Advanced idea to come out of this thread.


(As a side note, the high number of Yankees in the report might just be related to the fact that the only two providers talking to Mitchell's team were the very people (as you point out) supplying the Yankees. Had they caught a guy dealing for, say, Kansas City or Seattle or the Sox, the percentages might have skewed differently.)

khan
01-26-2009, 02:51 PM
Jaret Wright, starting pitcher, made 22 starts combined in 2001, 2002 and 2003, and only three times in his seven seasons had Jaret Wright, starting pitcher, made more than 20 starts. He had a good season in his contract year and cashed in, and I don't fault him for it, but you can't honestly say a pitcher with that kind of a track record is an acquisition you can count on.

I can agree to this. And were I a GM, I certainly wouldn't make such a signing. But in no way was Jaret Wright "scrap" when he was signed to the Yankees for big money. He was "scrap" to the Braves who took a chance on him in 2003. [Just as Bartolo Colon is "scrap" today.] But when Wright signed with New York, he wasn't "scrap."

Again, I don't see why east coast polesmokers and oeo venerate a guy who royally sucked in every other managerial job before money and steroids made him the luckiest manager on the planet. [For the record: 14 years as a manager before he came to NY, with only 1 post-season appearance that yielded his Braves being swept out of the postseason.]

You present an interesting paradox here, as the Yankees of that era made an effort to acquire the best players available by any means necessary. We all know, or can at least make a semi-educated guess, what percentage of players of that caliber were not on the level; did they become cheaters because they were Yankees, or did they become Yankees because they cheated?

Khan, that might be the most Advanced idea to come out of this thread.


(As a side note, the high number of Yankees in the report might just be related to the fact that the only two providers talking to Mitchell's team were the very people (as you point out) supplying the Yankees. Had they caught a guy dealing for, say, Kansas City or Seattle or the Sox, the percentages might have skewed differently.)
I can agree to this, too. But for whatever reason, there are more known cheaters that were actively cheating when they were yankees.

It still does NOTHING to change Torre's status as OVERRATED.

Paulwny
01-26-2009, 03:29 PM
It still does NOTHING to change Torre's status as OVERRATED.


Agree, Torre is another Casey Stengel. The horses made the teams not the managers.

doublem23
01-26-2009, 04:02 PM
It still does NOTHING to change Torre's status as OVERRATED.

Joe Torre did most of his winning when the Yankees weren't in megaspending mode. He won the World Series once with a starting lineup of Jorge Posada, Tino Martinez, Chuck Knoblauch, Scott Brosius, Derek Jeter, Chad Curtis, Bernie Williams, Paul O'Neill, and Darryl Strawberry.

The guy can manage.

dickallen15
01-26-2009, 04:08 PM
I can agree to this. And were I a GM, I certainly wouldn't make such a signing. But in no way was Jaret Wright "scrap" when he was signed to the Yankees for big money. He was "scrap" to the Braves who took a chance on him in 2003. [Just as Bartolo Colon is "scrap" today.] But when Wright signed with New York, he wasn't "scrap."

Again, I don't see why east coast polesmokers and oeo venerate a guy who royally sucked in every other managerial job before money and steroids made him the luckiest manager on the planet. [For the record: 14 years as a manager before he came to NY, with only 1 post-season appearance that yielded his Braves being swept out of the postseason.]


.

It still does NOTHING to change Torre's status as OVERRATED.

So you are saying when the Braves and Cardinals were losing, its all on the manager, but when the Yankees won, it had nothing to do with the manager. How many straight postseason appearances did his team make? Ozzie Guillen is thought of like royalty in Chicago, and he has had the highest payroll I think every year except 2008 in the division. He didn't make the playoffs every year. He must really be brain damaged if Torre is bad. Torre made the playoffs yet again in LA.

Chez
01-26-2009, 04:19 PM
Like others have said, I'm surprised Torre felt compelled to write this book. Whether or not he was treated fairly by the Yankees, I expected Torre to rise above it. Kind of disappointing that he didn't.

Eddo144
01-26-2009, 04:19 PM
The Pirates have spent their money foolishly as well. The difference is that they've spent hundreds of millions LESS than Torre's Yankees.
This is correct, and it gets back to the point I made. The Yankees, due to their high payroll, can afford to spend foolishly. One bad contract for the Pirates, and they're screwed for years.

spawn
01-26-2009, 04:32 PM
Like others have said, I'm surprised Torre felt compelled to write this book. Whether or not he was treated fairly by the Yankees, I expected Torre to rise above it. Kind of disappointing that he didn't.
As has been mentioned upthread, he didn't write the book. it was co-authored with Tom Verducci.As I said upthread, I think we need to wait until the book comes out bfore we condemn him.

Frontman
01-26-2009, 06:04 PM
Joe Torre did most of his winning when the Yankees weren't in megaspending mode. He won the World Series once with a starting lineup of Jorge Posada, Tino Martinez, Chuck Knoblauch, Scott Brosius, Derek Jeter, Chad Curtis, Bernie Williams, Paul O'Neill, and Darryl Strawberry.

The guy can manage.

He kept the Yankees in the playoffs annually. Sure, the Yankees spent money to give him the horses; but he also had to manage all those personalities. Anyone who says Torre isn't one of the best managers currently in the game is foolish.

Khan, let me ask you something. Do you think Jim Leyland is a better or worse manager than Torre?

ode to veeck
01-27-2009, 10:59 AM
So either...



B) There's a lot more to winning than OPS+

ding ding ding

we have a winner

Lefty34
01-28-2009, 01:15 AM
ding ding ding

we have a winner

Here is how A-Rod finished on his team in OBP for each season (minimum 500 PA's):

2004: 4th (.375)
2005: 2nd (.421)
2006: 3rd (.391)
2007: 2nd (.422)
2008: 1st (.392)

But those numbers alone don't describe how well he was doing relative to his own team. So I give you this, since joining the Yankees, here is how A-Rod has finished in the VORP category on his own team:

2004: 3rd (52.1)
2005: 1st (91.4)
2006: 2nd (50.2)
2007: 1st (93.8)
2008: 1st (62.9)

Those are pretty damn good numbers for someone that had a hard time having a "winning" season.

And please spare the "0 rings" comments, they mean nothing and just get int the way.

WhiteSoxFan84
01-28-2009, 02:42 AM
VORP category

Not to get in your debate and I'm not saying you're wrong or right, but that right there; not so meaningful. The 2008 AL Champs had 0 guys in the top 50 in VORP.

WhiteSoxFan84
01-28-2009, 02:51 AM
The guy can manage.

Joe Torre, much like Phil Jackson, can HANDLE superstars. Is he a great manager? I don't know. Give me those Yankees teams he had all those years and I'll get you at least 1 World Series title. No teal needed. I would've known to pull Clemens, Pettitte, Cone (in his prime), Wells (in his prime), and El Duque (in his prime) after 7 and brought in either the combination of Rivera/Wetteland or Nelson/Wetteland to close the game out.

But it does take A LOT to handle the NY media, Steinbrenner's crap, and all the egos in that clubhouse. So kudos to him for being able to get 4 WS titles out of his years in NY. But as far as how good of a baseball manager he is... eh.

Madscout
01-28-2009, 08:01 AM
And please spare the "0 rings" comments, they mean nothing and just get int the way.
:?: The comments or the rings? If it is the latter, I suggest you leave and go to the northside website.

Lefty34
01-28-2009, 12:22 PM
Not to get in your debate and I'm not saying you're wrong or right, but that right there; not so meaningful. The 2008 AL Champs had 0 guys in the top 50 in VORP.

That in no way means or even implies that VORP can or should be viewed as any less meaningful.

:?: The comments or the rings? If it is the latter, I suggest you leave and go to the northside website.

The notion that most people have that because A-Rod has had zero WS rings since coming to the Yankees his skills and performance become less valuable or meaningless.

FedEx227
01-28-2009, 12:46 PM
Even if you don't to look at VORP (which I'm no fan of) there are countless other metrics and general scoutable abilities that show A-Rod is one of the best ever.

The only thing he's not good at is some underlying, undefinable, unseen "DOESN'T WIN". Most metrics point to him actually being very good in clutch situations, he has unbeliveable overall numbers at his age for his position, in the time period he plays in. Especially considering he's in an offensive-heavy time, he still rises above most players in this league.

Get rid of that zero World Series rings crap, 96% of players on active rosters in a given year don't win World Series rings. Doesn't mean a god-damn thing on the player level. On a team level, possibly, but this isn't the NFL or the NBA, one player can't lead you to a World Series.

areilly
01-28-2009, 02:05 PM
Get rid of that zero World Series rings crap, 96% of players on active rosters in a given year don't win World Series rings. Doesn't mean a god-damn thing on the player level. On a team level, possibly, but this isn't the NFL or the NBA, one player can't lead you to a World Series.

Couldn't agree more with this statement. You could assemble not just an All-Star team but an entire fantasy league exclusively of elite- and Hall of Fame players who never received a World Series ring.

Juan Uribe has a World Series ring. Alex Rodriguez does not.

Jon Garland has a World Series ring. Johan Santana does not.

Dave Roberts has a World Series ring. Ichiro Suzuki does not.

Dontrelle Willis has a World Series ring. CC Sabathia does not.

I'll give my car to the first person that can explain to me in no subjective, uncertain terms how a piece of jewelry makes any of the former a better baseball player than the latter.

Frontman
01-28-2009, 03:22 PM
Couldn't agree more with this statement. You could assemble not just an All-Star team but an entire fantasy league exclusively of elite- and Hall of Fame players who never received a World Series ring.

Juan Uribe has a World Series ring. Alex Rodriguez does not.

Jon Garland has a World Series ring. Johan Santana does not.

Dave Roberts has a World Series ring. Ichiro Suzuki does not.

Dontrelle Willis has a World Series ring. CC Sabathia does not.

I'll give my car to the first person that can explain to me in no subjective, uncertain terms how a piece of jewelry makes any of the former a better baseball player than the latter.

It's completely subjective. If you were making an all-time line up for the Sox; who would you have catching? Pudge Fisk or AJ? Personally, I'd go with the guy in the Hall of Fame over the one with a ring...

EuroSox35
01-29-2009, 01:10 AM
Ouch, just heard even more of his comments from the book. I still wonder why he wouldn't wait til he's done if he's going to say this stuff at all

And (having nothing to do with the book), count me in on the 'Torre is overrated' camp. I was around NY for some months when he was still managing and seeing some of his game by game decisions up close, I backed off the 'meatball NY fan' stereotype for the fans that wanted him gone. He had a weekly radio spot on sports radio where they grilled him on every little thing and some of his logic for his moves would be ass backwards. I don't really credit him for LA last year either. He had a solid team with great pitching underachieve in a bad division and then was handed Manny while Arizona collapsed

WhiteSoxFan84
01-29-2009, 02:27 AM
That in no way means or even implies that VORP can or should be viewed as any less meaningful.

Why not? The team won 97 games and the AL Pennant. I'll add this...

Aubrey Huff (.304/.360/32/108) had a higher VORP than Miguel Cabrera (.292/.349/37/127), does that mean Huff had a better season than Cabrera? No, it just means Huff got on-base more than Cabrera by a margin that gets washed out when you compare HRs & RBIs and throw in the fact that Cabrera hits in one of the worst ballparks for hitters half the season. Heck, Jhonny frickin' Peralta had a higher VORP than Evan Longoria, Mark Teixeira, Magglio Ordonez, Ichiro, AND Manny Ramirez.

Thus concluding, meaningless stat.

Eddo144
01-29-2009, 09:38 AM
Why not? The team won 97 games and the AL Pennant. I'll add this...

Aubrey Huff (.304/.360/32/108) had a higher VORP than Miguel Cabrera (.292/.349/37/127), does that mean Huff had a better season than Cabrera? No, it just means Huff got on-base more than Cabrera by a margin that gets washed out when you compare HRs & RBIs and throw in the fact that Cabrera hits in one of the worst ballparks for hitters half the season. Heck, Jhonny frickin' Peralta had a higher VORP than Evan Longoria, Mark Teixeira, Magglio Ordonez, Ichiro, AND Manny Ramirez.

Thus concluding, meaningless stat.
Huff vs. Cabrera:
You conveniently left off two really important figures. Huff had 48 doubles and slugged .552; Cabrera had only 36 doubles and slugged .537. The twelve extra doubles make up for the five fewer home runs, and the slugging bears that out. You really want to base your argument on the fact that Cabrera had more RBI?

Peralta plays a premium position (which is the biggest problem with VORP, I think the positional adjustments are too extreme) and had a career year, with 42 doubles and 23 home runs. He outslugged Ichiro. Additionally, Longoria and Ordonez both missed time with injury; Peralta didn't. And I'm not sure how VORP measures players who switch leagues; Teixeira's and Ramirez's VORPs might be AL-only, which only counts roughly half the season for each.

That being said, VORP is not without flaws, and I personally never use it for anything. But you don't need VORP to see that Rodriguez was easily the best player on the Yankees since he arrived.

SBSoxFan
01-29-2009, 09:42 PM
And now the Yankees are considering a non-disparagement clause.

:rolleyes: to both of them.

TheOzziePlan
01-30-2009, 12:40 AM
"A-Fraud." Ha. What a horrible insult.

Fenway
01-30-2009, 01:13 AM
"A-Fraud." Ha. What a horrible insult.

To be fair Torre said players were calling him A-Fraud not him.

Torre won 4 championships in NY and it easily could have been six.
Mariano blew saves in 2001 and 2004 that just didn't happen earlier in his career.

A manager in baseball can only do so much as you still need players to perform. Casey when he was manager of NYY could do no wrong in the 50's but was a lousy manager with the Braves and Mets. Torre did little with St Louis and Atlanta.

Was Billy Martin a better manager than Torre? Perhaps..but Billy could not leave the game at the ballpark. Torre could and that is why he never imploded.

khan
01-30-2009, 10:28 AM
Torre won 4 championships in NY and it easily could have been six.
With THOSE teams' payrolls, it SHOULD have been six.

A manager in baseball can only do so much as you still need players to perform. Casey when he was manager of NYY could do no wrong in the 50's but was a lousy manager with the Braves and Mets.
The difference? In the 50s, the Yankees had an overwhelming advantage in terms of acquiring the top prospects. At that time, without free agency, these top prospects [more often than not] remained Yankee property until the Yankees decided to ship them out in favor of a NEW top prospect. Hence, MLB started the entry draft in 1965, so as to make the competition somewhat more equitable. Without this [IMO unfair] advantage in terms of talent, Casey was decidedly mediocre with the Braves/Mets.

[EDIT] As a side note, with baseball's now global talent pool, MLB has to take the next step in this evolution, and initiate an international draft for amateurs, though I doubt it will happen anytime soon.

Torre did little with St Louis and Atlanta.
The difference? Torre had George's money, and Radomski's/McNamee's steroids.

IMO, both Torre and Casey are/were good managers. But I posit that east coast polesmokers overrate these guys. These guys aren't the golden gods that ESPN will have you believe.

I think I could have won with Torre's cheating Yankees. You have to go back some 10 years or so to have a team OTHER THAN the Yankees at the top of MLB's team total payrolls. Only bumbling moron like Bevington could have screwed up an obese payroll like Torre enjoyed.

EndemicSox
01-30-2009, 11:36 AM
Like others have said, I'm surprised Torre felt compelled to write this book. Whether or not he was treated fairly by the Yankees, I expected Torre to rise above it. Kind of disappointing that he didn't.

He never cashed in as a player, guess he is going for the easy cash grab. Money makes us all do funny, illogical things. Never been a fan of Torre, so this isn't much of surprise, at least to me.