PDA

View Full Version : Keith Law's Farm System Rankings


Domeshot17
01-22-2009, 12:06 AM
http://insider.espn.go.com/mlb/insider/columns/story?columnist=law_keith&id=3848691

Sox are number 23. Says what a lot of us felt that after Gordon our draft was really suspect. He went so far to say we would have been bottom 5 before picking up Flowers and signing Dayan (although he thinks Dayan is too heavy).

Atleast we moved up some, but our farm is still incredibly sub par overall.

DirtySox
01-22-2009, 12:26 AM
http://proxy.espn.go.com/chat/chatESPN?event_id=24671

In Callis' chat today he mentioned that he had us at #14.

oeo
01-22-2009, 12:38 AM
Says what a lot of us felt that after Gordon our draft was really suspect.

Who?

He went so far to say we would have been bottom 5 before picking up Flowers and signing Dayan (although he thinks Dayan is too heavy). Oooh, so we hopped up 3 spots in his meaningless rankings? He thinks Dayan is too heavy, :lol:. In other words, 'I haven't seen him play, I hear he's a big boy, and he's a member of the White Sox organization...not a keeper.'

http://proxy.espn.go.com/chat/chatESPN?event_id=24671

In Callis' chat today he mentioned that he had us at #14.

Unless that's a typo, which is possible, that's like the ultimate Sox-farm-system-hater's nightmare. 1)They're not rated in the bottom half of the league and 2)The best in talent evaluation, the almighty Twins, are behind them. No, no, it can't be true. Aren't the Twins the unanimous #1?

DirtySox
01-22-2009, 12:48 AM
For those who don't want to wade through all the questions in the chat, he ranked the AL Central Farm Systems as follows:

Indians - 7
Royals - 9
White Sox - 14
Twins - 22
Tigers - 25

dickallen15
01-22-2009, 08:23 AM
Farm system rankings mean nothing. The White Sox were once ranked #1 and most of their big prospects turned into average at best major leaguers or insurance salesman. I would rather have my prospects see they are ranked fairly low. Maybe they will think they have something to prove.

voodoochile
01-22-2009, 09:57 AM
Unless that's a typo, which is possible, that's like the ultimate Sox-farm-system-hater's nightmare. 1)They're not rated in the bottom half of the league and 2)The best in talent evaluation, the almighty Twins, are behind them. No, no, it can't be true. Aren't the Twins the unanimous #1?


Two thoughts... First, they've pretty much brought their entire system up in the last 5 years and second, it's amazing how hard it is to draft good talent when you are winning the division 4 times in 6 years and just missing a 5th time and thus drafting bottom 7 slots on a consistent basis.

EMachine10
01-22-2009, 10:36 AM
Two thoughts... First, they've pretty much brought their entire system up in the last 5 years and second, it's amazing how hard it is to draft good talent when you are winning the division 4 times in 6 years and just missing a 5th time and thus drafting bottom 7 slots on a consistent basis.
True. I've always thought that contributed to our willingness to trade away prospects. If we continued winning the division, our draft choices were not going to be any good and our chances of building a top system becomes so much more difficult.

oeo
01-22-2009, 11:01 AM
Two thoughts... First, they've pretty much brought their entire system up in the last 5 years and second, it's amazing how hard it is to draft good talent when you are winning the division 4 times in 6 years and just missing a 5th time and thus drafting bottom 7 slots on a consistent basis.

I've always thought the Twins have been best at developing players, not necessarily finding the best talent. They can get the best out of fringe players, which is what they do year in and year out. That's how they always stay respectable...they always have that annoying ****er in AAA who comes up and doesn't try to do too much (i.e., hit the ball straight into the turf and run your ass off). They develop good, sound ballplayers, but the talent isn't great (most of the time).

Seems like a lot of people here like to believe the Twins just have unbelievable draft after unbelievable draft, and their farm is just crawling with talent.

Randar68
01-22-2009, 11:06 AM
I've always thought the Twins have been best at developing players, not necessarily finding the best talent. They can get the best out of fringe players, which is what they do year in and year out. That's how they always stay respectable...they always have that annoying ****er in AAA who comes up and doesn't try to do too much. They develop good, sound ballplayers, but the talent isn't great (most of the time).

Seems like a lot of people here like to believe the Twins just have unbelievable draft after unbelievable draft, and their farm is just crawling with talent.

Uhhh, the Twins didn't exactly "develop" Torii Hunter, Johan Santana, Joe Nathan, Joe Mauer, Liriano, or Justin Mourneau...

their secondary players? that do a good job of stressing fundamentals and the like with those guys so they don't have a lot of gaping holes in their games, but they have had a lot of impact players that were either very high draft picks or just great talents.

dickallen15
01-22-2009, 11:15 AM
Two thoughts... First, they've pretty much brought their entire system up in the last 5 years and second, it's amazing how hard it is to draft good talent when you are winning the division 4 times in 6 years and just missing a 5th time and thus drafting bottom 7 slots on a consistent basis.


The Sox draft position is very overblown as an excuse as to why they haven't developed players. The only 2 players on the 2005 world championship team the White Sox didn't have the opportunity to draft because they were off the board before they selected, were Konerko who went to LA with the 13th pick in 1994. The Sox picked 26th that year and picked Mark Johnson, and Jon Garland who was picked 10th in 1997. The Sox had the 15th pick that year and chose Jason Dellaro, one spot in front of Houston selecting Lance Berkman. There has always been good players available when their turn to select has come up, and for years they made bad decisions.

oeo
01-22-2009, 12:03 PM
Uhhh, the Twins didn't exactly "develop" Torii Hunter, Johan Santana, Joe Nathan, Joe Mauer, Liriano, or Justin Mourneau...

their secondary players? that do a good job of stressing fundamentals and the like with those guys so they don't have a lot of gaping holes in their games, but they have had a lot of impact players that were either very high draft picks or just great talents.

Uhhh, this is exactly what I said.

I said, for the most part, the guys that help them a lot are good, fundamentally sound players. The key words being, 'for the most part.' Johan, Nathan, and Liriano are not even products of the Twins' system. If you want to go this route, the Sox have been successful at nabbing other teams' top players, too (Danks, Floyd, Quentin, Jenks). The Sox also had a guy named Magglio Ordonez go through their system years ago (like Hunter).

Mauer and Morneau are just great talents. One of them was from being so awful they got a top pick, the other was just a great snag. Let's not act like everyone that comes through their system is a Justin Morneau, though. It's more likely you will find a Buscher, a Casilla, a Kubel, etc.

FedEx227
01-22-2009, 01:28 PM
Uhhh, the Twins didn't exactly "develop" Torii Hunter, Johan Santana, Joe Nathan, Joe Mauer, Liriano, or Justin Mourneau...

their secondary players? that do a good job of stressing fundamentals and the like with those guys so they don't have a lot of gaping holes in their games, but they have had a lot of impact players that were either very high draft picks or just great talents.

Well first off, half of those guys didn't even come through their system. Santana, Nathan and Liriano all came through other systems. Nathan wasn't even a prospect when they acquired him, Santana was a Rule 5 pickup and Liriano was a thrown-in to the AJ deal.

They are great at teaching, through all their levels of developement they learn all the same things. It's not like they go to A and are told to drive the ball out of the park, then go to AA and told, put it on the ground and steal bases, it's a very fluid, well coached, well managed minor league system.

FedEx227
01-22-2009, 01:29 PM
The Sox draft position is very overblown as an excuse as to why they haven't developed players. The only 2 players on the 2005 world championship team the White Sox didn't pass on during the draft were Konerko who went to LA with the 13th pick in 1994. The Sox picked 26th that year and picked Mark Johnson, and Jon Garland who was picked 10th in 1997. The Sox had the 15th pick that year and chose Jason Dellaro, one spot in front of Houston selecting Lance Berkman. There has always been good players available when their turn to select has come up, and for years they made bad decisions.

I hate the draft position argument, you can look all across baseball and find top-tier players that 30 teams passed on multiple times. It's less about drafting and more about how you develop those guys, in my mind. There is going to be talent no matter what round you pick, it's about finding what you want and knowing how to develop them into what you want.

officerron
01-22-2009, 01:48 PM
I hate the draft position argument, you can look all across baseball and find top-tier players that 30 teams passed on multiple times. It's less about drafting and more about how you develop those guys, in my mind. There is going to be talent no matter what round you pick, it's about finding what you want and knowing how to develop them into what you want.

Agreed. Boston has done well with their minor league system despite being competitive every year (Papelbon, Ellsbury, Pedroia, Lowrie, Lester, Bowden, Buchholz, Lars Anderson).

Bucky F. Dent
01-22-2009, 04:53 PM
http://proxy.espn.go.com/chat/chatESPN?event_id=24671

In Callis' chat today he mentioned that he had us at #14.


Also, when asked to chose the best Sox prospect amongst a group that included Beckham, Danks, and Quentin, he selected Beckham.

Now, he may have dismissed Danks and Quentin from the list because he no longer considered them prospects, but if not, that is quite an endorsement of Beckham!

Konerko05
01-22-2009, 06:04 PM
Also, when asked to chose the best Sox prospect amongst a group that included Beckham, Danks, and Quentin, he selected Beckham.

Now, he may have dismissed Danks and Quentin from the list because he no longer considered them prospects, but if not, that is quite an endorsement of Beckham!

He definitely took into consideration Danks and Quentin are no longer prospects.

He said Beckham is a better prospect than Poreda and Flowers. I'm sure most people here would agree.

KyWhiSoxFan
01-22-2009, 08:12 PM
Law ranked the teams 1 through 30 but provided little evidence on what he used to base his rankings. Other than mentioning a few players here and there, there was little substance.

If he had listed the top ten prospects from each organization and talked about those players' ability and upside, fine, but this report was all subjective. Whether true or not, how can you give it any credence? If all he wanted was some hot stove league talk, he accomplished that. And little else.

Daver
01-22-2009, 08:31 PM
Kieth Law's opinion and a buck and a half will get me a cup of coffee at Speedway, just his opinion doesn't get me a damn thing.

Save McCuddy's
01-23-2009, 12:09 AM
As far as I can see, we're in year 1 of totally revamping our farm system. They've made great strides so far and have added quality players to make each level more competitive. I'm willing to be patient -- not expecting breakthrough super stars just yet.

SoxxoS
01-25-2009, 02:01 PM
I dont think I have seen Keith Law write anything positive about the white sox, ever.

Domeshot17
01-25-2009, 02:08 PM
As far as I can see, we're in year 1 of totally revamping our farm system. They've made great strides so far and have added quality players to make each level more competitive. I'm willing to be patient -- not expecting breakthrough super stars just yet.

Disagree and agree at the same time. We have used our farm system for so long to make trades it is unreasonable to think we would have this amazing system, but it is very frustrating watch us blow first round pick after first round pick. How good would someone like Joba or Matt Garza look throwing for us instead of scrubs like Broadway and Mcculloch. While Poreda is a nice 50-60 ranked prospect with a strong mid rotation ceiling, the guy we passed up for him he is a top 5-10 prospect depending whos rankings you look at. The Farm could be a lot stronger than it is, but as long as we keep drafting on the cheap, knocking out the half of the draft represented by Boras and blowing picks on people like Kenny's son, we will NEVER have a top 10 farm.

jabrch
01-25-2009, 02:09 PM
I dont think I have seen Keith Law write anything positive about the white sox, ever.

I wouldn't care if he did. There are a lot of experts who's opinion I value. His is not one of them.

rdivaldi
01-25-2009, 03:59 PM
How good would someone like Joba or Matt Garza look throwing for us instead of scrubs like Broadway and Mcculloch. While Poreda is a nice 50-60 ranked prospect with a strong mid rotation ceiling, the guy we passed up for him he is a top 5-10 prospect depending whos rankings you look at. The Farm could be a lot stronger than it is, but as long as we keep drafting on the cheap, knocking out the half of the draft represented by Boras and blowing picks on people like Kenny's son, we will NEVER have a top 10 farm.

1. The Twins thought so highly of Garza, that they traded him.
2. Can we quit anointing Porcello? The Tigers paid a king's ransom for a high school pitcher. Not smart. It may pay off for them, but it is just as likely that he will blow out his arm/shoulder like many high schoolers do.
3. On the cheap?
4. How many people does Borass have in every draft? 2-3-4? Pretty easy to build up a farm system without dealing with that assclown.
5. We will have a top 10 farm system again, it's cyclical.

champagne030
01-25-2009, 07:09 PM
I wouldn't care if he did. There are a lot of experts who's opinion I value. His is not one of them.

He was a GM. You are an internet GM. Do not question his views.

champagne030
01-25-2009, 07:13 PM
1. The Twins thought so highly of Garza, that they traded him.
2. Can we quit anointing Porcello? The Tigers paid a king's ransom for a high school pitcher. Not smart. It may pay off for them, but it is just as likely that he will blow out his arm/shoulder like many high schoolers do.
3. On the cheap?
4. How many people does Borass have in every draft? 2-3-4? Pretty easy to build up a farm system without dealing with that assclown.
5. We will have a top 10 farm system again, it's cyclical.

I'm not bitching at the move, but didn't we just sign a 19 year-old to a $10M contract? And he's got a lot more questions than Porcello.

sullythered
01-25-2009, 10:51 PM
He was a GM.
No, he was not.

Domeshot17
01-26-2009, 12:13 AM
1. The Twins thought so highly of Garza, that they traded him.
2. Can we quit anointing Porcello? The Tigers paid a king's ransom for a high school pitcher. Not smart. It may pay off for them, but it is just as likely that he will blow out his arm/shoulder like many high schoolers do.
3. On the cheap?
4. How many people does Borass have in every draft? 2-3-4? Pretty easy to build up a farm system without dealing with that assclown.
5. We will have a top 10 farm system again, it's cyclical.

Even if Garza didn't turn the corner in Tampa, he still may have pitched more productive innings in his Minny Career then Broadway and McCullough will in their Career.

Porcello has to give us a reason not to anoint him. The kids has been amazing since joining the Tigers farm. Yes he may blow out his arm, but he is so smart for his years. The reason his K's were down this year is he was afraid of killing his arm and learned to be a pitcher and getting ground balls. So he isn't just pounding fastballs, but using his pitches really efficiently. I guess it stings for me because he was a guy I was really high on when he hit the draft. It was clear he was a special talent, and for the money we spent on Uribe and Erstad in 2007 we could have had him.

Yes, we draft cheap. We consistently spend in the bottom 1/3 of all teams in the draft. I am not saying we draft every above slot player on the board, but there is no reason we should not be spending in the top 1/2.

Because we can't work with Boras we constantly pass on top talent that falls in the higher rounds. His job is to get the best deals he can for his players, while I do not like him or his ethics, if I was a player I surely would want him to represent me.

And we need to make major strides to get back in the top 10. It is hard to judge a draft for a few years. Some are really high on last years draft, some are really down, I am kind of in the middle on it. We will see.

rdivaldi
01-26-2009, 10:09 PM
I'm not bitching at the move, but didn't we just sign a 19 year-old to a $10M contract? And he's got a lot more questions than Porcello.

You are correct, and I think that's it's a risky move. I hope that Daylan is as smart a signing as Alexei.

rdivaldi
01-26-2009, 10:33 PM
Even if Garza didn't turn the corner in Tampa, he still may have pitched more productive innings in his Minny Career then Broadway and McCullough will in their Career.

Porcello has to give us a reason not to anoint him. The kids has been amazing since joining the Tigers farm. Yes he may blow out his arm, but he is so smart for his years. The reason his K's were down this year is he was afraid of killing his arm and learned to be a pitcher and getting ground balls. So he isn't just pounding fastballs, but using his pitches really efficiently. I guess it stings for me because he was a guy I was really high on when he hit the draft. It was clear he was a special talent, and for the money we spent on Uribe and Erstad in 2007 we could have had him.

Yes, we draft cheap. We consistently spend in the bottom 1/3 of all teams in the draft. I am not saying we draft every above slot player on the board, but there is no reason we should not be spending in the top 1/2.

Because we can't work with Boras we constantly pass on top talent that falls in the higher rounds. His job is to get the best deals he can for his players, while I do not like him or his ethics, if I was a player I surely would want him to represent me.

And we need to make major strides to get back in the top 10. It is hard to judge a draft for a few years. Some are really high on last years draft, some are really White Sox Interactive Forums - Reply to Topic (http://www.whitesoxinteractive.com/vbulletin/newreply.php?do=newreply&p=2144177)down, I am kind of in the middle on it. We will see.

Garza did nothing for Minnesota, so really what's the use?

Porcello is a kid and hasn't pitched above A ball, I'm not anointing him and neither should anybody else. We've been hearing about Adam Miller for what, 4 years? He was a sure thing and the only sure thing about him is that he's going to be on the DL every year.

We have been somewhat cheap in the draft, some of that was drafting late, some of that was not paying over slot after the 1st round.

Until someone does a study that proves that Boras draftees = World Series championships, screw him.

We could jump up in the rankings very quickly, you never know what could happen. We exploded from an also-ran in 1999 to #1 in 2000.

Daver
01-26-2009, 10:34 PM
I'm not bitching at the move, but didn't we just sign a 19 year-old to a $10M contract? And he's got a lot more questions than Porcello.

He's not a pitcher, HS pitchers are a complete crapshoot, position players are more of a calculated gamble. In this case you are drawing to a good hand, Cuban players play at their highest level early, and against decent competition.

rdivaldi
01-26-2009, 10:52 PM
He's not a pitcher, HS pitchers are a complete crapshoot, position players are more of a calculated gamble. In this case you are drawing to a good hand, Cuban players play at their highest level early, and against decent competition.

Drafting high school pitchers is very risky. We're actually lucky to have 2 of the better ones of the past couple of years in Danks and Floyd.

jabrch
01-27-2009, 02:09 AM
Drafting high school pitchers is very risky. We're actually lucky to have 2 of the better ones of the past couple of years in Danks and Floyd.

And we got them by not overpaying them out of HS and waiting to see what they'd look like (a bit more) before acquiring them.

I have no problem with rolling the dice on a HS pitcher. I have a problem with paying them the sort of money that Porcello didn't get from the Sox or any of the other teams that passed on him as well.

EMachine10
01-27-2009, 10:56 AM
Even if Garza didn't turn the corner in Tampa, he still may have pitched more productive innings in his Minny Career then Broadway and McCullough will in their Career.

Porcello has to give us a reason not to anoint him. The kids has been amazing since joining the Tigers farm. Yes he may blow out his arm, but he is so smart for his years. The reason his K's were down this year is he was afraid of killing his arm and learned to be a pitcher and getting ground balls. So he isn't just pounding fastballs, but using his pitches really efficiently. I guess it stings for me because he was a guy I was really high on when he hit the draft. It was clear he was a special talent, and for the money we spent on Uribe and Erstad in 2007 we could have had him.

Yes, we draft cheap. We consistently spend in the bottom 1/3 of all teams in the draft. I am not saying we draft every above slot player on the board, but there is no reason we should not be spending in the top 1/2.

Because we can't work with Boras we constantly pass on top talent that falls in the higher rounds. His job is to get the best deals he can for his players, while I do not like him or his ethics, if I was a player I surely would want him to represent me.

And we need to make major strides to get back in the top 10. It is hard to judge a draft for a few years. Some are really high on last years draft, some are really down, I am kind of in the middle on it. We will see.
I've thought about that as well, but I've also thought about another side to this statement. Take Jordan Danks, for example: Sure, he slipped in the draft because he didn't develop power at Texas, and maybe scouts thought he slipped a little bit in terms of overall value, but Boras kept demanding a large amount of out of slot money for the kid, despite his continuing fall through the draft. Teams will continue to pass on him because they don't want to pay that kind of money in the later rounds. The farther he falls, the more money he loses on his bonus. I always thought this was why Danks showed Boras the door, and his brother did the same.

If you're an established big time player and wouldn't mind playing in NY/Boston/LA, then Boras might be a fine option, but if you're even say a good player, that every team would want to make a run for, he may not be appropriate for you.

Britt Burns
01-27-2009, 01:00 PM
Drafting high school pitchers is very risky. We're actually lucky to have 2 of the better ones of the past couple of years in Danks and Floyd.

And we didn't even draft them. Both had some track record of success and durability in the minors before we acquired them. I think the whole Moneyball- Billy Beane drafting strategy has been proven as a fraud by now, but the one part of that I agree with is to not waste high-round picks on HS pitchers. We've actually been pretty good about avoiding them, with the Stumms and Honels being the exceptions that prove the rule.

FedEx227
01-27-2009, 02:02 PM
And we didn't even draft them. Both had some track record of success and durability in the minors before we acquired them. I think the whole Moneyball- Billy Beane drafting strategy has been proven as a fraud by now, but the one part of that I agree with is to not waste high-round picks on HS pitchers.

It was never suppose to be a be-all, end-all. The thing with Beane is he typically wants to do what give him the best value.

At the time Moneyball came out people were down on college pitchers and high on high school pitchers. Billy was merely trying to say, I can get low-risk players at a great value at this point of time so I'm going to do it.

You're now seeing a few more teams go after college players and thus drive the value up, now if you look at some Billy Beane drafts they tend to have a decent amount of high school players.