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havelj
01-18-2009, 03:52 PM
And it begins....

http://www.suntimes.com/sports/baseball/cubs/1384290,CST-SPT-cub18.article

gogosox16
01-18-2009, 03:55 PM
When do the Jake Peavy rumors start up again?

champagne030
01-18-2009, 04:04 PM
When do the Jake Peavy rumors start up again?

They better not be able to get him with some bull**** package of Hill/Olson/Cedeno/Vitters because we could match/better that with Poreda/Broadway/Getz/Allen.

Sockinchisox
01-18-2009, 04:07 PM
They better not be able to get him with some bull**** package of Hill/Olson/Cedeno/Vitters because we could match/better that with Poreda/Broadway/Getz/Allen.

Peavy won't come here.

munchman33
01-18-2009, 04:10 PM
They better not be able to get him with some bull**** package of Hill/Olson/Cedeno/Vitters because we could match/better that with Poreda/Broadway/Getz/Allen.

:?:

Be honest...you don't really believe ours would be the better package, do you?

FedEx227
01-18-2009, 04:10 PM
They better not be able to get him with some bull**** package of Hill/Olson/Cedeno/Vitters because we could match/better that with Poreda/Broadway/Getz/Allen.

Why do I know some bull**** deal like that is going to get it done.

Hill I doubt would be in any package though, not only is he sucking but now he's having character issues as well, so its safe to say the ship probably sailed on him.

FedEx227
01-18-2009, 04:10 PM
:?:

Be honest...you don't really believe ours would be the better package, do you?

Between those two ours blows the Cubs one out of the water.

Vitters is the only real decent prospect of their bunch.

1908<2005
01-18-2009, 04:11 PM
Between those two ours blows the Cubs one out of the water.

Vitters is the only real decent prospect of their bunch.

You couldn't be more wrong. Vitters is better than our whole minor league system combined.

oeo
01-18-2009, 04:14 PM
You couldn't be more wrong.

Then this gem?

Vitters is better than our whole minor league system combined.

:roflmao:

turners56
01-18-2009, 04:18 PM
You couldn't be more wrong. Vitters is better than our whole minor league system combined.
It looks like you've bought into the Cubs farm-system propaganda.

WhiteSoxFan84
01-18-2009, 04:20 PM
You couldn't be more wrong. Vitters is better than our whole minor league system combined.

What are you basing this claim on? One season in Boise (Class A)? Take it easy. Let the guy prove himself in the minors first before you proclaim him the next Albert Pujols.

oeo
01-18-2009, 04:22 PM
What are you basing this claim on? One season in Boise (Class A)? Take it easy. Let the guy prove himself in the minors first before you proclaim him the next Albert Pujols.

He's basing it off not having a clue on where our farm system stands. It's not top of the line, but this is the most out there statement I've read here about it.

WhiteSoxFan84
01-18-2009, 04:25 PM
It looks like you've bought into the Cubs farm-system propaganda.

Seriously. Almost ALL of the guys they've hyped up (Patterson, Hill, Pie, Guzman) have sucked so far. The guys they didn't even MENTION (Zambrano, Marmol, Theroit) have been very well thus far.

guillensdisciple
01-18-2009, 04:29 PM
I think he was being sarcastic, just didn't use teal.

FedEx227
01-18-2009, 04:32 PM
He's basing it off not having a clue on where our farm system stands. It's not top of the line, but this is the most out there statement I've read here about it.

See my argument was not against Vitters being better than anyone in our farm system, he probably is. I'd definitely agree he is better than any individual player in our system.

But the sum of those packages provided we have the better all-around one.

Vitters is good, but Hill, Cedeno and Olsen are barely prospects at this point.

munchman33
01-18-2009, 04:33 PM
Between those two ours blows the Cubs one out of the water.

Vitters is the only real decent prospect of their bunch.

Hmm...two plus arms both able to play in the majors now, a top prosect in Vitters, and a good defensive shortstop who can hit a little...for a plus arm who probably can only relieve, a guy who at best projects to a sixth starter, and two position prospects who at best don't project to be stars.

:scratch:

FedEx227
01-18-2009, 04:37 PM
You never fail to be unbelievably stupid.

Rich Hill is able to pitch in the majors now?

Might want to take a look at where his careers gone in the past year.

Nothing screams MLB-ready plus arm like 6.99 ERA/1.89 WHIP split between A+/AAA and the always impressive 46 Ks against 39 BB.

Or the always impressive 23 walks over 21 innings in the Venezuela league before leaving his team early.

Yeah that's a plus arm thats MLB-ready.
http://mlb.mlb.com/news/article.jsp?ymd=20090107&content_id=3735942&vkey=hotstove2008&fext=.jsp

champagne030
01-18-2009, 04:38 PM
Hill I doubt would be in any package though, not only is he sucking but now he's having character issues as well, so its safe to say the ship probably sailed on him.

I agree he's worthless, but they will try to package him because he's out of options, as is/was Pie/Cedeno. I think they actually got a decent return on Pie. Olson has been horrible in Baltimore, but he was pretty damn good in the minors. Completely different players and styles, but I could see that trade being a Thornton/LTP move for the Flubs.

thomas35forever
01-18-2009, 04:39 PM
This wreaks of Wood and Prior all over again. We all knew what type of a risk he was, and now it's starting to show.

WhiteSoxOnly
01-18-2009, 04:42 PM
It looks like you've bought into the Cubs farm-system propaganda.

Probably because he's a cub fan in disguise with that 1908 ****.

rdivaldi
01-18-2009, 04:42 PM
Probably because he's a cub fan in disguise with that 1908 ****.

1908<2005 = "1908 is less than 2005" or "2005 is greater than 1908"

champagne030
01-18-2009, 04:46 PM
:?:

Be honest...you don't really believe ours would be the better package, do you?

I certainly wouldn't trade our package for the Flubs'. :shrug:

Vitters has nice upside at the plate, but I don't think he's going to be able to stay at 3B, without being a substandard fielder. His hitting value goes down if he moves to a corner OF or 1B.

WhiteSoxOnly
01-18-2009, 04:48 PM
1908<2005 = "1908 is less than 2005" or "2005 is greater than 1908"

My bad then,got my symbols crossed.Apology to 1908<2005

munchman33
01-18-2009, 05:19 PM
You never fail to be unbelievably stupid.

Rich Hill is able to pitch in the majors now?

Might want to take a look at where his careers gone in the past year.

Nothing screams MLB-ready plus arm like 6.99 ERA/1.89 WHIP split between A+/AAA and the always impressive 46 Ks against 39 BB.

Or the always impressive 23 walks over 21 innings in the Venezuela league before leaving his team early.

Yeah that's a plus arm thats MLB-ready.
http://mlb.mlb.com/news/article.jsp?ymd=20090107&content_id=3735942&vkey=hotstove2008&fext=.jsp

Rich Hill has better stuff that Aaron Poreda, who's championed around here quite a bit. So does Olson, for the record. I'm sure Poreda's fastball and some work on one of his breaking pitches will lead to a decent career as a reliever. But lets not kid ourselves here. Hill and Olson both have a better chance of being impact starters in the majors. At least at this point.

Lance Broadway isn't even a throw in. He's got negative value. He isn't worth his salary.

Getz and Allen combined wouldn't get you Vitters in a trade.

Children resort to name calling.

Craig Grebeck
01-18-2009, 05:32 PM
Rich Hill has better stuff that Aaron Poreda, who's championed around here quite a bit. So does Olson, for the record. I'm sure Poreda's fastball and some work on one of his breaking pitches will lead to a decent career as a reliever. But lets not kid ourselves here. Hill and Olson both have a better chance of being impact starters in the majors. At least at this point.

Lance Broadway isn't even a throw in. He's got negative value. He isn't worth his salary.

Getz and Allen combined wouldn't get you Vitters in a trade.

Children resort to name calling.
I'm sorry, but Rich Hill has clearly lost it. He's a reclamation project at this point, and isn't 10% of the pitcher he was in 2007. It's sad, but true. As for Garrett Olson, give me a ****ing break. Sure, he's been good in the minor leagues, but I still don't believe he has Aaron's upside.

You're correct on Broadway (though a tad hyperbolic).

I think the idea that Vitters will get moved away from 3B is pretty uninformed. I seriously haven't heard bad things about his glove.

munchman33
01-18-2009, 05:41 PM
I'm sorry, but Rich Hill has clearly lost it. He's a reclamation project at this point, and isn't 10% of the pitcher he was in 2007. It's sad, but true. As for Garrett Olson, give me a ****ing break. Sure, he's been good in the minor leagues, but I still don't believe he has Aaron's upside.

You're correct on Broadway (though a tad hyperbolic).

I think the idea that Vitters will get moved away from 3B is pretty uninformed. I seriously haven't heard bad things about his glove.

Right now, if he was on our roster, Rich Hill would be our fifth starter. Poreda may have more upside, but Hill isn't that far off. It's just mental. He's more of a change of scenery guy than a reclamation project.

I still think there's very little chance Poreda makes it as a starter.

Craig Grebeck
01-18-2009, 05:44 PM
Right now, if he was on our roster, Rich Hill would be our fifth starter. Poreda may have more upside, but Hill isn't that far off. It's just mental. He's more of a change of scenery guy than a reclamation project.

I still think there's very little chance Poreda makes it as a starter.
Rich Hill will be 29 in spring training. There's not a ton of time left before he's bagging groceries.

As for him being our fifth starter, I guess I can't argue. Is he better than the **** we'll be throwing into the competition? Perhaps, though I don't think he's a safer bet than Clayton at this point. Marquez? Sure.

munchman33
01-18-2009, 05:53 PM
Rich Hill will be 29 in spring training. There's not a ton of time left before he's bagging groceries.

As for him being our fifth starter, I guess I can't argue. Is he better than the **** we'll be throwing into the competition? Perhaps, though I don't think he's a safer bet than Clayton at this point. Marquez? Sure.

He still has probably the best curveball in baseball.

Craig Grebeck
01-18-2009, 05:56 PM
He still has probably the best curveball in baseball.
Justin Verlander, Cliff Lee, Doc Halladay, and Josh Beckett take note.

It's very difficult to be successful when you try to throw a 70 MPH curveball 30% of the time.

munchman33
01-18-2009, 05:57 PM
Justin Verlander, Cliff Lee, Doc Halladay, and Josh Beckett take note.

It's very difficult to be successful when you try to throw a 70 MPH curveball 30% of the time.

Coop'll fix 'em. :cool:

I do think Hill is going to figure it out. Glad it probably won't be with the cubs.

Daver
01-18-2009, 06:00 PM
Rich Hill will be 29 in spring training. There's not a ton of time left before he's bagging groceries.


With the medical services and training done by players pitchers are no longer done at 35 years old.

oeo
01-18-2009, 06:10 PM
See my argument was not against Vitters being better than anyone in our farm system, he probably is. I'd definitely agree he is better than any individual player in our system.

Whatever potential Vitters may have, he's not as advanced as Gordon Beckham. He's young, he'll get better, but as of right now, I would say Gordon is better than him.

I realize that 1908<2005 wasn't speaking literally, but I understand the point he was trying to make, and it's wrong.

Brian26
01-18-2009, 06:30 PM
Rich Hill will be 29 in spring training. There's not a ton of time left before he's bagging groceries.

Rich Hill has made $850,000 in the past two years. I think he's going to be ok.

Craig Grebeck
01-18-2009, 06:36 PM
Rich Hill has made $850,000 in the past two years. I think he's going to be ok.
Figure of speech. When a guy loses it the way he has, there's only so many chances he'll get once over the age of thirty. He can thank the heavens every single day that he's left-handed.

soxinem1
01-18-2009, 07:18 PM
I think Harden is more interested in breaking Mark Prior's team record for simulated innings pitched.....

veeter
01-18-2009, 08:54 PM
No surprise with Harden. And by the way, RICH HILL ****ING SUCKS!!!!!

thedudeabides
01-18-2009, 09:21 PM
I hope there is a lot of teal missing in this thread. There is some really funny **** being thrown around here.

LoveYourSuit
01-18-2009, 09:57 PM
I'm more worried about Contreras/Colon getting healthy and staying health than being worried about Harden right now.

That's their problem.

And maybe this forces their hand to get Peavy at all cost, that will piss off even more folks here on the board.

But seriously,

:whocares

Dan Mega
01-18-2009, 10:31 PM
No surprise with Harden. And by the way, RICH HILL ****ING SUCKS!!!!!

Coop could fix em

/semi-serious

kjhanson
01-18-2009, 10:36 PM
He still has probably the best curveball in baseball.

In order to "still" have something, you do realize that you had to have it in the first place, right?

sullythered
01-19-2009, 01:52 AM
With the medical services and training done by players pitchers are no longer done at 35 years old.
Unless you're bad at pitching like Rich Hill is. Then you could be done much sooner.

cws05champ
01-19-2009, 08:41 AM
In order to "still" have something, you do realize that you had to have it in the first place, right?
Well, Hill does have a great curveball, but the problem is location of both his fastball and curve. He walks too many guys and has clearly lost it mentally.

Munch,
You can't seriously say that Rich Hill is ML ready and would be our # 5. Look at what has happened to him over the last two years....and while I agree that he a classic change of scenary guy, it doesn't guarentee that a 29 yr old will magically get it again. Right now I would take Clayton Richard who throws strikes over Rich Hill.
And Olsen has a ML arm but he doesn't have an out pitch yet and has a 6.87 ERA over 33 career starts. You are always over valuing other teams players (cedeno...c'mon) and under valuing ours.

champagne030
01-19-2009, 09:08 AM
I think the idea that Vitters will get moved away from 3B is pretty uninformed. I seriously haven't heard bad things about his glove.

You haven't been paying attention if you haven't heard/read the questions about his defense. Scouting reports had him moving before the draft and nothing in his defensive play has changed those opinions.

I have no idea how he committed the 16 errors in 60 games this season, but reports have him shot putting the ball to first and getting bad reads and having slow reactions.

veeter
01-19-2009, 09:13 AM
You haven't been paying attention if you haven't heard/read the questions about his defense. Scouting reports had him moving before the draft and nothing in his defensive play has changed those opinions.

I have no idea how he committed the 16 errors in 60 games this season, but reports have him shot putting the ball to first and getting bad reads and having slow reactions.Ty Griffin, Corey Patterson, Felix Pie, Sam Fuld....Josh Vitters.

FedEx227
01-19-2009, 09:50 AM
Munch,
You can't seriously say that Rich Hill is ML ready and would be our # 5. Look at what has happened to him over the last two years....and while I agree that he a classic change of scenary guy, it doesn't guarentee that a 29 yr old will magically get it again. Right now I would take Clayton Richard who throws strikes over Rich Hill.
And Olsen has a ML arm but he doesn't have an out pitch yet and has a 6.87 ERA over 33 career starts. You are always over valuing other teams players (cedeno...c'mon) and under valuing ours.

munch is unbelieveable. Don't even try and reason with him. He has different TVs and computers than we all do. His somehow show Rich Hill who spent a majority of the year sucking it up in A+ ball, who STILL hasn't found his control and likely will not be with a major league team by the time Spring Training lets out, as MLB-ready and a 5th starter candidate on the White Sox.

champagne030
01-19-2009, 09:59 AM
Ty Griffin, Corey Patterson, Felix Pie, Sam Fuld....Josh Vitters.

I still do think Vitters will be a very good hitter.

veeter
01-19-2009, 10:31 AM
I still do think Vitters will be a very good hitter.He might. But he's on the fast track to unfounded "phenom" status like the rest of the list. I'll believe it when I see it.

jabrch
01-19-2009, 10:48 AM
A: Hill was decent in 2007, with 192 IP, a sub 4.00 ERA and a sub 1.20 WHIP.

B: The Cubs tinkered with his delivery so he could hold runners on base better.

C: He had a terrible 2008.

Now I have no idea if B caused C or if A was a fluke. I have no idea if hitters got a book on him, or what the deal is.

But I do know this. Rich Hill went from being a very good (but old) prospect who had a great first season in a rotation to being trash without any particularly easy to explain reason. He "lost" his control.

This leads me to believe that someone could "fix" him. I doubt he's more than a back of the rotation guy - but I also believe he could be fixed if a team invested the time/effort.

That said, he's no more likely to be effective this year in a rotation than the guys we are looking at for the back end of our rotation.

jabrch
01-19-2009, 10:49 AM
He might. But he's on the fast track to unfounded "phenom" status like the rest of the list. I'll believe it when I see it.

The same can be said of prospects from every organization, ours included.

Of those, Fuld sticks out as the least talented of the bunch. The rest were all extremely talented baseball players who did have high potential early on in their careers, and who started in the minors very young.

havelj
01-19-2009, 12:24 PM
I'm more worried about Contreras/Colon getting healthy and staying health than being worried about Harden right now.

That's their problem.

And maybe this forces their hand to get Peavy at all cost, that will piss off even more folks here on the board.

But seriously,

:whocares


We all should care because if he is hurt, that will affect the market for pitchers. And in case you haven't noticed, the Sox still have some holes to fill in their rotation.

seventyseven
01-19-2009, 12:59 PM
He still has probably the best curveball in baseball.

Thanks, I needed a good laugh.

LoveYourSuit
01-19-2009, 01:25 PM
We all should care because if he is hurt, that will affect the market for pitchers. And in case you haven't noticed, the Sox still have some holes to fill in their rotation.

:?: Jake Peavy is coming here?

jonred
01-20-2009, 03:51 PM
Seriously. Almost ALL of the guys they've hyped up (Patterson, Hill, Pie, Guzman) have sucked so far. The guys they didn't even MENTION (Zambrano, Marmol, Theroit) have been very well thus far.

You forgot to mention the reigning ROY and all-star catcher as well...

KenBerryGrab
01-20-2009, 04:09 PM
Referring to Rich Hill,
It's just mental.


I think they said that about Steve Blass, too.

...
01-20-2009, 08:58 PM
:?: Jake Peavy is coming here?
You know, there are other pitchers in baseball besides Jake Peavy.

LoveYourSuit
01-20-2009, 10:21 PM
You know, there are other pitchers in baseball besides Jake Peavy.


Give me a ****ing break. :rolleyes:

Name a single pitcher the Cubs are targeting who the Sox might have interest on and that perhaps would pick to play for us over the Cubs?


Once again, back to my Gary Colemen "Who Cares" that Harden is hurt other than the bunch here who are obsessed with their Cub hate. Harden hurt makes no difference to how Kenny operates the rest of this offseason.

Madscout
01-21-2009, 08:20 AM
He still has probably the best curveball in baseball.
If he was with us, he wouldn't even have the best curve on the team.

guillensdisciple
01-21-2009, 10:39 AM
He isn't going to play in the WBC, I do hope he has a strong year. Love his stuff as a pitcher and want to see him do well. (Just not well enough to win the world series:redneck).

Gammons Peter
01-21-2009, 11:07 AM
He isn't going to play in the WBC, I do hope he has a strong year. Love his stuff as a pitcher and want to see him do well. (Just not well enough to win the world series:redneck).


I hope he loses every game he pitches as long as he wears the Bozo costume

oeo
01-21-2009, 11:46 AM
If he was with us, he wouldn't even have the best curve on the team.

We've had this discussion with munch before. He has a boner for Rich Hill's looping curve ball, for whatever reason.

FedEx227
01-21-2009, 11:48 AM
Munch is the master of gross over exaggerations.

Rich Hill has the greatest curveball in baseball. So much so that he got to show it off in A+ ball this year, while that loopy curveball was hitting the dirt.

also Derrick Rose is the worst defense in basketball, despite the fact another guy in his backcourt is worse than him (Ben Gordon) as well as about 40-50 other players in the league.

Madscout
01-21-2009, 01:03 PM
We've had this discussion with munch before. He has a boner for Rich Hill's looping curve ball, for whatever reason.
Maybe he means, "Rich Hill has the best curveball of all the pitchers in the Cubs' system that can't get it over for strikes" I'd believe that.

FedEx227
01-21-2009, 01:29 PM
He possibly had the best curve on his Venezuelan team.

munchman33
01-21-2009, 03:00 PM
Okay, he has the best movement on a curveball of the people currently playing baseball.

Sheesh people. You're missing the point. The kid still has a lot of talent, and he didn't always have control issues. Putting it together isn't out of the question, and his upside is really high.

CashMan
01-21-2009, 03:17 PM
Okay, he has the best movement on a curveball of the people currently playing baseball.

Sheesh people. You're missing the point. The kid still has a lot of talent, and he didn't always have control issues. Putting it together isn't out of the question, and his upside is really high.


He is going to be 29 when the season starts. Give me a list of 5 names of pitchers who have blossomed at that age.

RadioheadRocks
01-21-2009, 03:36 PM
You couldn't be more wrong. Vitters is better than our whole minor league system combined.


Vitters... isn't that what the Beverly Hillbillies used to have in the "fancy eatin' room"??? :D:

Mr.1Dog
01-21-2009, 03:37 PM
He is going to be 29 when the season starts. Give me a list of 5 names of pitchers who have blossomed at that age.

Eddie Harris, Cleveland Indians, 1989.

munchman33
01-21-2009, 03:42 PM
He is going to be 29 when the season starts. Give me a list of 5 names of pitchers who have blossomed at that age.

But he's already had success at the major league level. It wouldn't be a "blossom," it would be a return to form.

soxinem1
01-21-2009, 04:05 PM
He is going to be 29 when the season starts. Give me a list of 5 names of pitchers who have blossomed at that age.

I can think of a few, but most are knuckleballers: Hough, Niekro (both), Wilhelm.

A lot of times, lefties bloom late, like Warren Spahn.

FedEx227
01-21-2009, 04:52 PM
But he's already had success at the major league level. It wouldn't be a "blossom," it would be a return to form.

Except when you have a gigantic mental block as he does and ridiculous control issues like he does it's going to be kinda tough to do that. It took Ankiel moving to another position, it took Chuck Knoblach out of the game and in 2-3 years we'll see the same with Barry Zito.

munchman33
01-21-2009, 05:27 PM
Except when you have a gigantic mental block as he does and ridiculous control issues like he does it's going to be kinda tough to do that. It took Ankiel moving to another position, it took Chuck Knoblach out of the game and in 2-3 years we'll see the same with Barry Zito.

The upside and his salary makes it worth it. At least in my opinion.

soxwon
01-21-2009, 06:51 PM
here comes peavy, for 2 bats n a catchers mask.

cws05champ
01-21-2009, 07:16 PM
The upside and his salary makes it worth it. At least in my opinion.
Of course you are entitled to your opinion, but when you say a guy has the best curveball in the majors but he can't crack high A at this point, prepare to be attacked.

oeo
01-21-2009, 07:24 PM
But he's already had success at the major league level. It wouldn't be a "blossom," it would be a return to form.

One year, at the age of 27.

I still don't get your fascination with the guy's breaking ball. I guess I'm just not a fan of big, looping curve balls, in which he usually needs an umpire willing to call a high strike (sometimes really high).

champagne030
01-21-2009, 07:29 PM
Of course you are entitled to your opinion, but when you say a guy has the best curveball in the majors but he can't crack high A at this point, prepare to be attacked.

He said one of our former players was a lock for the HOF before he had 25 innings of A+ ball. :shrug: