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brumski
01-11-2009, 12:09 PM
Dear Kenny,

Please sign Ben Sheets. I know a lot of people are going to say that we can't afford him, but at this point he is going to be a major league "bargain." I think 3 years of a heavily incentive laden contract would likely get it done today. He will be facing a league that has never seen him before and fits perfectly as another right-handed veteran and power arm project for Coop to sink his teeth into. Now, I realize the injury tendencies, but a good Ben Sheets is about as good as it gets, and to me I see the value in that risk.

Sincerely,

The guy who buys enough $60 tickets, $7 beers, and $4 hot dogs to know that your "budget constraints" are a bunch of b.s.

jabrch
01-11-2009, 12:34 PM
The guy who buys enough $60 tickets, $7 beers, and $4 hot dogs to know that your "budget constraints" are a bunch of b.s.

Can you tell me about my personal financial situation please? Can I afford a new car?

russ99
01-11-2009, 12:47 PM
Can you tell me about my personal financial situation please? Can I afford a new car?

Gimme a break. How much profit did Jerry and the rest of Sox ownership pull in the last 4 years? While times are certainly tighter now, if you think the Sox are suddenly broke, you're fooling yourself.

I can't tell if this payroll reduction is Kenny's idea, i.e. going younger, or if it's imposed by the higher-ups, or both. Regardless, they've proven the Sox can go well over $100M in payroll and make a substantial profit.

But this paring of both payroll and experienced players is a hard sell on the people who not only have to do their own belt-tightening, but who also supply the bulk of the Sox revenue by buying tickets, parking, concessions, etc...

As far as my personal situation, If we go to camp without a few solid additions, I'm only going to 2-3 games this year and not my usual 12-15, and my finances have nothing to do with it. And I doubt I'm the only Sox fan that feels this way.

getonbckthr
01-11-2009, 01:12 PM
Gimme a break. How much profit did Jerry and the rest of Sox ownership pull in the last 4 years? While times are certainly tighter now, if you think the Sox are suddenly broke, you're fooling yourself.

I can't tell if this payroll reduction is Kenny's idea, i.e. going younger, or if it's imposed by the higher-ups, or both. Regardless, they've proven the Sox can go well over $100M in payroll and make a substantial profit.

But this paring of both payroll and experienced players is a hard sell on the people who not only have to do their own belt-tightening, but who also supply the bulk of the Sox revenue by buying tickets, parking, concessions, etc...

As far as my personal situation, If we go to camp without a few solid additions, I'm only going to 2-3 games this year and not my usual 12-15, and my finances have nothing to do with it. And I doubt I'm the only Sox fan that feels this way.
With sponsors pulling out and the unknown effect the economy will have on attendance the Sox have to prepare for less revenue being generated.

PalehosePlanet
01-11-2009, 01:45 PM
With sponsors pulling out and the unknown effect the economy will have on attendance the Sox have to prepare for less revenue being generated.

Yes, but if we do not field a contender that will have a much larger overall effect on revenue generated.

Also, we have a substantial amount coming off the books after the '09 season.

Bottom line: This is the time to sign Ben Sheets, because the state of the economy has made him very affordable.

I'm of the opinion that if we do sign an FA pitcher we might as well swing for the fences and go after Ben Sheets. A move like that will put us in a much better position to contend. I do not want a retread, or has-been, or a complete reclamation project. If that's the case I'd rather just go with the kids and see what they can do.

getonbckthr
01-11-2009, 01:51 PM
Yes, but if we do not field a contender that will have a much larger overall effect on revenue generated.

Also, we have a substantial amount coming off the books after the '09 season.

Bottom line: This is the time to sign Ben Sheets, because the state of the economy has made him very affordable.

I'm of the opinion that if we do sign an FA pitcher we might as well swing for the fences and go after Ben Sheets. A move like that will put us in a much better position to contend. I do not want a retread, or has-been, or a complete reclamation project. If that's the case I'd rather just go with the kids and see what they can do.
So we should give a pitcher 10 million when he will miss 2 months per season? Thats poor wreckless spending.

DaveFeelsRight
01-11-2009, 01:54 PM
this may be a silly question but, for NL pitchers like sheets who constantly get hurt, does batting in the NL affect their health?

itsnotrequired
01-11-2009, 01:57 PM
Regardless, they've proven the Sox can go well over $100M in payroll and make a substantial profit.

link?

MarkZ35
01-11-2009, 02:18 PM
this may be a silly question but, for NL pitchers like sheets who constantly get hurt, does batting in the NL affect their health?
I would say that it definately contributes. It may not affect them all but there are some very unathletic pitchers who are now forced to run the bases and even slide at times. So i would say that it does play into their injuries for some pitchers.

russ99
01-11-2009, 02:52 PM
link?

Obviously the specifics are not released, but it's well known that most teams have made a profit the last few years, mostly resulting from increased revenue from the web media and other online products and internet shop sales. The World Series championship and increased attendance along with expansion of the premium seating areas pushed the Sox profit level higher.

But this from Forbes, will give you a general idea of how the Sox are doing:
http://www.forbes.com/lists/2008/33/biz_baseball08_Chicago-White-Sox_334758.html

Check out the Operating Income graph for a loose estimation of how much the Sox have grown into the black the last few years. This only goes up to 2007, so I wonder how much better the Sox did in 2008 with a contending team...

So yeah, when Kenny cries poor, I take it with a grain of salt.

champagne030
01-11-2009, 02:53 PM
link?

Is Forbes acceptable?

Nevermind. I was beaten to the question.

Zisk77
01-11-2009, 03:11 PM
Spend a lot of money on a guy who ended his season hurt, who is always hurt, may not even be healthy right now, and do it for 3 years! Brilliant!:o:

LoveYourSuit
01-11-2009, 03:34 PM
I take D lowe over Sheet because of sinker ball and health.

itsnotrequired
01-11-2009, 04:11 PM
Obviously the specifics are not released, but it's well known that most teams have made a profit the last few years, mostly resulting from increased revenue from the web media and other online products and internet shop sales. The World Series championship and increased attendance along with expansion of the premium seating areas pushed the Sox profit level higher.

But this from Forbes, will give you a general idea of how the Sox are doing:
http://www.forbes.com/lists/2008/33/biz_baseball08_Chicago-White-Sox_334758.html

Check out the Operating Income graph for a loose estimation of how much the Sox have grown into the black the last few years. This only goes up to 2007, so I wonder how much better the Sox did in 2008 with a contending team...

So yeah, when Kenny cries poor, I take it with a grain of salt.

operating income is earnings before interest, taxes, depreciation and amortization. i don't know how all that plays into the values they are posting. that $30 million "profit" may end up being only $5 million in money in the bank. can any finance dudes shed some light on this?

KW isn't crying poor. he has to work within the budget set by ownership.

getonbckthr
01-11-2009, 04:18 PM
How many owners are there that get a piece of that pie?

DumpJerry
01-11-2009, 04:23 PM
The guy who buys enough $60 tickets, $7 beers, and $4 hot dogs to know that your "budget constraints" are a bunch of b.s.
How does your spending to a certain level make you know enough about the Sox' budget to call b.s? Also, where are these $60 seats? There are no $60.00 seats, even at the Prime games.

I bought 186 tickets last year. I have no idea what the Sox' budget looks like.

DumpJerry
01-11-2009, 04:24 PM
How many owners are there that get a piece of that pie?
There are fifty owners. They have owned the team since 1981. 2005 was the only year where they received a dividend. When they go to a game, they have to pay for their own ticket(s). I know some of their lawyers, this is how I know this.

CashMan
01-11-2009, 04:27 PM
I take D lowe over Sheet because of sinker ball and health.


Comical! You would give a 3-4yr deal to a 36/37yr old pitcher rather than a 1yr deal with an option to a younger better pitcher? I am not disagreeing with him being hurt, but as a #4, if he could give you 150ip I would take that. He does have dominating stuff. Seeing that Penny got a 1yr 5mill contract, I am sure Sheets would be around the same.

LoveYourSuit
01-11-2009, 04:35 PM
Comical! You would give a 3-4yr deal to a 36/37yr old pitcher rather than a 1yr deal with an option to a younger better pitcher? I am not disagreeing with him being hurt, but as a #4, if he could give you 150ip I would take that. He does have dominating stuff. Seeing that Penny got a 1yr 5mill contract, I am sure Sheets would be around the same.


Comical, *** are you talking about. I never said give Lowe a 3-4 year deal. Don't put words in my mouth. I think sheets will be signed for at most a 2 year deal.... I rather get 2 healthy seasons from lowe than 2 seasons of question marks from Sheets.

getonbckthr
01-11-2009, 05:07 PM
Comical! You would give a 3-4yr deal to a 36/37yr old pitcher rather than a 1yr deal with an option to a younger better pitcher? I am not disagreeing with him being hurt, but as a #4, if he could give you 150ip I would take that. He does have dominating stuff. Seeing that Penny got a 1yr 5mill contract, I am sure Sheets would be around the same.
Sheets will get more than 5 million.

CashMan
01-11-2009, 05:30 PM
Comical, *** are you talking about. I never said give Lowe a 3-4 year deal. Don't put words in my mouth. I think sheets will be signed for at most a 2 year deal.... I rather get 2 healthy seasons from lowe than 2 seasons of question marks from Sheets.


Lowe is going to get a 3-4yr deal.

soxpride724
01-11-2009, 06:14 PM
]Gimme a break. How much profit did Jerry and the rest of Sox ownership pull in the last 4 years? While times are certainly tighter now, if you think the Sox are suddenly broke, you're fooling yourself.

I can't tell if this payroll reduction is Kenny's idea, i.e. going younger, or if it's imposed by the higher-ups, or both. Regardless, they've proven the Sox can go well over $100M in payroll and make a substantial profit.

But this paring of both payroll and experienced players is a hard sell on the people who not only have to do their own belt-tightening, but who also supply the bulk of the Sox revenue by buying tickets, parking, concessions, etc...

As far as my personal situation, If we go to camp without a few solid additions, I'm only going to 2-3 games this year and not my usual 12-15, and my finances have nothing to do with it. And I doubt I'm the only Sox fan that feels this way.[/quote]



Yeah same here. I'm also a 10-15 games a year guy, and if this team dosen't improve on this current roster I will only be at a few this season.

EMachine10
01-11-2009, 06:35 PM
Lowe is going to get a 3-4yr deal.
Not to mention Scott Boras, if my memory serves me correctly. I like Lowe as a pitcher and he'd be an asset to this team. He is, however, highly unlikely to come here due to his probable contract demands.

...
01-11-2009, 06:46 PM
Yeah same here. I'm also a 10-15 games a year guy, and if this team dosen't improve on this current roster I will only be at a few this season.

Cool, then you can jump on the bandwagon later in the season!!! I'm sure you had no problem doing this during 2005!! Lame.

Craig Grebeck
01-11-2009, 06:53 PM
Cool, then you can jump on the bandwagon later in the season!!! I'm sure you had no problem doing this during 2005!! Lame.
If they choose to put the crap on the field that they've loaded the roster with at the moment, I see no reason to support them financially.

...
01-11-2009, 06:57 PM
If they choose to put the crap on the field that they've loaded the roster with at the moment, I see no reason to support them financially.

OK so go cheer for the Yankees or Red Sox, little to no risk involved there.

If all you expect is top-tier player after top-tier player, you're going to be disappointed as a White Sox fan. Get the **** out there and support your team, which ever one that may be.

Craig Grebeck
01-11-2009, 07:00 PM
OK so go cheer for the Yankees or Red Sox, little to no risk involved there.

If all you expect is top-tier player after top-tier player, you're going to be disappointed as a White Sox fan. Get the **** out there and support your team, which ever one that may be.
It's not really the same thing. The team currently has three established starting pitchers, a questionable infield, poor defense up the middle, and a litany of other problems. I see no reason to believe that guys like Brent Lillibridge, Wilson Betemit, and Jerry Owens will contribute anything to a winning ballclub. If no starting pitchers are signed, and Jeff Marquez makes the 25 man roster, I may not go to any games.

...
01-11-2009, 07:04 PM
It's not really the same thing. The team currently has three established starting pitchers, a questionable infield, poor defense up the middle, and a litany of other problems. I see no reason to believe that guys like Brent Lillibridge, Wilson Betemit, and Jerry Owens will contribute anything to a winning ballclub. If no starting pitchers are signed, and Jeff Marquez makes the 25 man roster, I may not go to any games.

Nice moves. :rolleyes:

Analyze the White Sox 2005 spring training roster and you'll come up with a pretty similar assessment.

Craig Grebeck
01-11-2009, 07:07 PM
Nice moves. :rolleyes:

Analyze the White Sox 2005 spring training roster and you'll come up with a pretty similar assessment.
I don't think that's relevant at all. We knew a team with the solid rotation they had would compete. That, combined with great defense and a tremendous bullpen made us an elite team. How you could possibly compare the two is beyond me.

chisox123
01-11-2009, 07:21 PM
Why not sign him, I understand that he is injury prone, but then you just give him a contract with incentives. As it stands they have two spots to fill and if you can add a guy like sheets as a number four then why not. We need to sign someone before the season starts and Sheets is the best guy still out there. We can't count on two rookies again and hope that they will be the next Floyd and Danks, that's too much of a risk. It seems like a no-brainer to me.

...
01-11-2009, 07:31 PM
I don't think that's relevant at all. We knew a team with the solid rotation they had would compete. That, combined with great defense and a tremendous bullpen made us an elite team. How you could possibly compare the two is beyond me.

You're beyond yourself.

A tremendous bullpen? Are you high? We're talking about BEFORE the season started. The bullpen was ****. Cotts had never posted an ERA less than 5.65. Pollite had ERAs of 5.66 4.38 in the two seasons prior and we had a 37 year old closer. The pitching staff consisted of two proven pitchers in Buehrle and Garcia, one pitcher who hadn't lived up to his hype in Garland and two HUGE question marks in Contreas, El Duque. We were starting an unproven Japanese second basemen, injure plagued left and right fielders, second and third basemen who couldn't hit water if they fell out of a boat.

Sounds like a great team and most definitely shares no similarities with the complaints of the 2009 team!!

Everyone was ****ting their pants then and ****ting their pants now.

Craig Grebeck
01-11-2009, 07:39 PM
You're beyone yourself.

A tremendous bullpen? Are you high? We're talking about BEFORE the season started. The bullpen was ****. Cotts had never posted an ERA less than 5.65. Pollite had ERAs of 5.66 4.38 in the two seasons prior and we had a 37 year old closer. The pitching staff consisted of two proven pitchers in Buehrle and Garcia, one pitcher who hadn't lived up to his hype in garland and two HUGE question marks in Contreas, El Duque. We were starting an unproven Japanese second basemen, injure plagued left and right fielders, second and third basemen who couldn't hit water if they fell out of a boat.

Sounds like a great team and most definitely shares no similarities with the complaints of the 2009 team!!

Everyone was ****ting their pants then and ****ting their pants now.
You can stop being so melodramatic. For one thing, you misread my statement about the bullpen. I never said it was a great bullpen heading into the season. Rather, I meant that a great bullpen/defense combined with that rotation made us an elite team. No one foresaw an elite bullpen.

Secondly, if you want to draw comparisons between Josh Fields and Joe Crede, go right ahead. Now, Fields may hit at a similar level to what Crede hit in his years prior to 2006, but Fields has a terrible glove, while Crede is one of the best defensive third basemen in the game. As for starting pitching, our rotation looked a hell of a lot better than it does as of now. Richard and Marquez wouldn't have been in the discussion for a spot in the rotation, and at the moment, it looks as though we'll be giving them 40% of our starts. That alone proves the difference between now and 2005.

Not to mention, defensively, we knew we'd be good. Crede and Uribe were great on the left side, Iguchi had a good reputation, Podsednik was good in LF (not in CF), and Rowand was passable. As of now, we don't have that luxury -- any ball put in play to the left side will be an adventure, and AJ couldn't throw out a Molina.

...
01-11-2009, 07:42 PM
You can stop being so melodramatic. For one thing, you misread my statement about the bullpen. I never said it was a great bullpen heading into the season. Rather, I meant that a great bullpen/defense combined with that rotation made us an elite team. No one foresaw an elite bullpen.

Secondly, if you want to draw comparisons between Josh Fields and Joe Crede, go right ahead. Now, Fields may hit at a similar level to what Crede hit in his years prior to 2006, but Fields has a terrible glove, while Crede is one of the best defensive third basemen in the game. As for starting pitching, our rotation looked a hell of a lot better than it does as of now. Richard and Marquez wouldn't have been in the discussion for a spot in the rotation, and at the moment, it looks as though we'll be giving them 40% of our starts. That alone proves the difference between now and 2005.

Not to mention, defensively, we knew we'd be good. Crede and Uribe were great on the left side, Iguchi had a good reputation, Podsednik was good in LF (not in CF), and Rowand was passable. As of now, we don't have that luxury -- any ball put in play to the left side will be an adventure, and AJ couldn't throw out a Molina.

Yeah...

Craig Grebeck
01-11-2009, 07:55 PM
Yeah...
:?:

cards press box
01-11-2009, 08:14 PM
I don't think that's relevant at all. We knew a team with the solid rotation they had would compete. That, combined with great defense and a tremendous bullpen made us an elite team. How you could possibly compare the two is beyond me.

I don't know what you did or did not know prior to the 2005 season but this sounds like revisionist history. Most commentators and analysts picked the Sox to finish 4th in the AL Central in 2005. I don't remember any prognosticators saying "based upon this team's defense and pitching, they will be a throwback to the 1955 Brooklyn Dodgers, the 1970 Baltimore Orioles and the 1984 Detroit Tigers."

To the contrary, most people viewed Contreras and El Duque as question marks and, for that matter, how many Sox fans were sold on Jon Garland in March 2005? Bullpen? The Sox had Shingo but everyone worried that (it turns out, rightly) that the league would catch up to him. People had questions about the defense, offense, you name it. The Sox had moved Carlos Lee and Magglio Ordonez and, to be sure, a lot of questions remained to be answered.

Let me put it this way -- after the 2004 season, the Las Vegas placed the odds on the Sox winning the 2005 World Series at 40-1. 40-1!

I'm not saying that the 2009 Sox will be the 2005 Sox revisited. But I don't know that they won't, either. I am saying that fans need to take a wait and see attitude, particularly at this point in the offseason. The Sox may not be done making moves. No one, for example, has signed recent Cuban defectors Yadel Marti and Yasser Gomez. The Sox have a strong track record signing players who leave Cuba and these players could very well fill holes in the pitching staff and center field.

russ99
01-11-2009, 08:39 PM
OK so go cheer for the Yankees or Red Sox, little to no risk involved there.

If all you expect is top-tier player after top-tier player, you're going to be disappointed as a White Sox fan. Get the **** out there and support your team, which ever one that may be.

No, I don't expect top-tier talent, just a competitive club or even a non-competitive one that's fun to watch, like when Frank and Robin started out. As of now the 2009 Sox are neither, so I'll go to a few games and primarily watch the Sox on TV.

And being a fan and buying tickets are two different things. I'm intrigued as to how things might work out, but that doesn't mean I'm going to put my dollars into the pot and blindly support the program. That's for the fans on the other side of town.

Also, did you ask yourself what happens if all these kids fail? I like the Sox being a high-profile big-market club, and I shudder to think how bad things would get if Ozzie and/or Kenny were let go... The late 80's were rough, I hope we never have to go through that again.

brumski
01-11-2009, 08:58 PM
You people are BRAINWASHED. The commissioner of Major League Baseball earned $15.06 million in 2007. Where do you think that money came from? You can criticize me all you want for not getting seat amounts to the penny, but the fact of the matter is that if you are buying the budget constraints, you are clueless. The Chicago White Sox can afford a $125 million payroll if they damn well choose to have one. It would simply require our ownership investing their earnings into the team instead of their bank accounts. And for a business person, that can be a tough thing to do.

getonbckthr
01-11-2009, 09:05 PM
You people are BRAINWASHED. The commissioner of Major League Baseball earned $15.06 million in 2007. Where do you think that money came from? You can criticize me all you want for not getting seat amounts to the penny, but the fact of the matter is that if you are buying the budget constraints, you are clueless. The Chicago White Sox can afford a $125 million payroll if they damn well choose to have one. It would simply require our ownership investing their earnings into the team instead of their bank accounts. And for a business person, that can be a tough thing to do.
Do you not realize that sponsors are pulling sponsorship due their own restraints? Do you realize attendance will be down due to the fact our economy sucks and people have to worry about their bills and paying for daily survival needs? What the team is doing is preparing not only for financial situations this season but the next few. Now who knows maybe the economy recovers back to normal. You know what that means the team's budget will back and we will have more money to spend in the future.

kittle42
01-11-2009, 09:06 PM
Do you not realize that sponsors are pulling sponsorship due their own restraints? Do you realize attendance will be down due to the fact our economy sucks and people have to worry about their bills and paying for daily survival needs?

They could charge $200 a seat across town and still sell out. That's annoying.

getonbckthr
01-11-2009, 09:17 PM
They could charge $200 a seat across town and still sell out. That's annoying.
You're right they can we can't. They don't need the sponsors we to an extent do. For whatever reason society both locally and nationally has deemed the Cubs a better investment and product than us. As far as I know what Kenny has said about a market bounce back has been accurate. 2-3 years ago Brad Penny gets 60 million. 1-2 years from now the market will be even worse then Kenny will pounce.

DumpJerry
01-11-2009, 09:38 PM
You people are BRAINWASHED. The commissioner of Major League Baseball earned $15.06 million in 2007. Where do you think that money came from? You can criticize me all you want for not getting seat amounts to the penny, but the fact of the matter is that if you are buying the budget constraints, you are clueless. The Chicago White Sox can afford a $125 million payroll if they damn well choose to have one. It would simply require our ownership investing their earnings into the team instead of their bank accounts. And for a business person, that can be a tough thing to do.
If you don't agree with the way the Sox run their business, what are you gonna do about it? Deprive yourself the pleasure of following the Sox?

Brian26
01-11-2009, 09:41 PM
To the contrary, most people viewed Contreras and El Duque as question marks and, for that matter, how many Sox fans were sold on Jon Garland in March 2005?

Good post. Garland was, in fact, the fifth starter to begin the year.

Brian26
01-11-2009, 09:42 PM
You people are BRAINWASHED. The commissioner of Major League Baseball earned $15.06 million in 2007. Where do you think that money came from?

More misappropriated bailout money. :thud:

...
01-11-2009, 10:03 PM
:?:

I've stopped fueling your ego.

Craig Grebeck
01-11-2009, 10:04 PM
I've stopped fueling your ego.
Noted.

...
01-11-2009, 10:12 PM
Noted.

Cool.

CashMan
01-11-2009, 11:32 PM
Noted.


If he is going to stop fueling it, I will! I have nothing better to do.

soxpride724
01-12-2009, 08:01 PM
Cool, then you can jump on the bandwagon later in the season!!! I'm sure you had no problem doing this during 2005!! Lame.

Yeah I did go to alot of games in 2005. Now how about the 40 I went to in 07, or the 25 I went to in 03? I was there for those memorable seasons as well.

Don't talk to me about jumping on bandwagons, as you have no idea. Besides, the way this team is constructed now there won't ba a wagon to jump on.

brumski
01-24-2009, 02:43 PM
Mod Edit: Don't copy and paste copyrighted material.

jabrch
01-24-2009, 02:49 PM
:rolleyes:

Over/Under - 15 min....

gr8mexico
01-24-2009, 02:52 PM
:rolleyes:

Over/Under - 15 min....
Ill take the over its Saturday:D:

jabrch
01-24-2009, 02:58 PM
Ill take the over its Saturday:D:

Bet ya a pop at the park sometime... if if not - an e-pop. :D:

jabrch
01-24-2009, 02:59 PM
10 min from when I set the over under....the under is a winner for all those who have tickets. :D:

voodoochile
01-24-2009, 03:02 PM
10 min from when I set the over under....the under is a winner for all those who have tickets. :D:

What's the over under on your next move in the Risk game? I mean clearly you are swamped with important things to do...:wink:

jabrch
01-24-2009, 03:17 PM
What's the over under on your next move in the Risk game? I mean clearly you are swamped with important things to do...:wink:


Over 60 min. I've been in my office all day - and can't get to the game from here.

Doing Performance Evaluations is...well...less than exciting work.