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View Full Version : Who else is starting to question KW?


Whitesoxfan23
01-08-2009, 02:24 PM
I'm seeing veteran pitchers that we could use get signed to reasonable 1 year deals. What the hell KW? Our rotation as it is right now, makes me want to puke. I hope something changes before the season begins.

esbrechtel
01-08-2009, 02:25 PM
January 8th.....

Whitesoxfan23
01-08-2009, 02:26 PM
I understand that.. But alot of the good veteran starting pitchers are starting to get signed.

whitesox901
01-08-2009, 02:27 PM
January 8th.....

agreed

doublem23
01-08-2009, 02:29 PM
I understand that.. But alot of the good veteran starting pitchers are starting to get signed.

What good veteran pitchers have been inking deals? John Smoltz? Carl Pavano? We already have one of them, his name is Jose Contreras.

...
01-08-2009, 02:29 PM
Question KW all you want, he doesn't give a ****...

khan
01-08-2009, 02:30 PM
I don't "question KW."

But if he's trying to go young, he'd better start selling some more vets off the team [PK, JD, Thome, possibly Buerhle, and Jenks] before the start of ST.

But if the object of the exercise is to compete in 2009, then I agree that another veteran arm is a must. It is starting to look like he didn't have a plan to replace Vazquez, and that he may have acted somewhat impetuously in trading him away. At least, without having a suitable replacement lined up. I hope that this isn't the case.

Having said this, its still only [EDIT] January 8th, so a lot can still happen before pitchers/catchers report. I only hope that the team doesn't show up with the team as-is when reporting starts.

Rocky Soprano
01-08-2009, 02:32 PM
:chickenlittle:threadsucks

Bucky F. Dent
01-08-2009, 02:32 PM
Having said this, its still only 01/07, so a lot can still happen before pitchers/catchers report. I only hope that the team doesn't show up with the team as-is when reporting starts.


I don't mean to alarm you, Khan, but it's January 8.:D:

Long way to go before the season starts folks.

Believe It!
01-08-2009, 02:33 PM
Who else is starting to question the loyalty of our fanbase?

doublem23
01-08-2009, 02:34 PM
Who else is starting to question the loyalty of our fanbase?

I'm not, people are just getting antsy.

kittle42
01-08-2009, 02:34 PM
Who else is starting to question the loyalty of our fanbase?

Blind loyalty sucks as much as this thread.

khan
01-08-2009, 02:35 PM
I don't mean to alarm you, Khan, but it's January 8.:D:

Long way to go before the season starts folks.

Yeah, I fixed it right after I hit "submit." :D:



But to the point of the thread, it's still early, and KW has time to either sell pieces [PK/JD/Thome/etc..] or pick up a veteran SP and [hopefully] a leadoff man.

Believe It!
01-08-2009, 02:38 PM
Blind loyalty sucks as much as this thread.
I SAW what happened in 2005
I also SAW what happened last year

Seeing those results can hardly be considered blind loyalty

NLaloosh
01-08-2009, 02:38 PM
everybody is just bored......that's all it is....some people on here (myself included) just start a thread because we're dying to have some White Sox excitement

geraldfritz
01-08-2009, 02:38 PM
Well I for one like where the team is heading. I would not mind seeing us get one more veteran starting pitcher, but I would like to see another acquisition in the bullpen before anything else in the starting rotation. We still have Buerhle, Danks, Floyd in the starting rotation, Contreras if he comes back, but I do not see him coming back anytime soon, probably will miss this season as well. But I like Richard, and I would love to see what Broadway can do. I give KW a lot of credit, he has done what he set out to do, without giving up too much of his core players. I think we will be fine, but I still think we need a little more bullpen depth and we will be able to contend with the rest of the division.

whitesox901
01-08-2009, 02:40 PM
Well I for one like where the team is heading. I would not mind seeing us get one more veteran starting pitcher, but I would like to see another acquisition in the bullpen before anything else in the starting rotation. We still have Buerhle, Danks, Floyd in the starting rotation, Contreras if he comes back, but I do not see him coming back anytime soon, probably will miss this season as well. But I like Richard, and I would love to see what Broadway can do. I give KW a lot of credit, he has done what he set out to do, without giving up too much of his core players. I think we will be fine, but I still think we need a little more bullpen depth and we will be able to contend with the rest of the division.

Amen

kittle42
01-08-2009, 02:53 PM
I SAW what happened in 2005
I also SAW what happened last year

Seeing those results can hardly be considered blind loyalty

It's not. Those years provided results (last year, for the most part only).

Believe It!
01-08-2009, 03:02 PM
It's not. Those years provided results (last year, for the most part only).

And how do you know, for sure, that this year wont?

LoveYourSuit
01-08-2009, 03:06 PM
I SAW what happened in 2005
I also SAW what happened last year

Seeing those results can hardly be considered blind loyalty


What happened to the meat between your sandwich there, like the 2007 season?

My concern is not going young, but going young with very average prospects. I see a "plethora" of very average prospects who will be battling for starting spots on this team this season. That's a concern.


The best thing we have going for us is that we do not play in the AL East. We still have a chance in the Central with this team full of question marks.

Believe It!
01-08-2009, 03:09 PM
What happened to the meat between your sandwich there, like the 2007 season?

My concern is not going young, but going young with very average prospects. I see a "plethora" of very average prospects who will be battling for starting spots on this team this season. That's a concern.


The best thing we have going for us is that we do not play in the AL East. We still have a chance in the Central with this team full of question marks.
2007 cannot even be considered in this conversation. That team, on paper, was better than the '05 team. Kenny cannot be blamed for the failure of that team.

spawn
01-08-2009, 03:11 PM
I'm starting to question why he doesn't sign up for an account here and post and answer for his decisions and his judgement. He owes that to us Sox fans. You hear me Kenny? Post, damn you, POST!!!

sox1970
01-08-2009, 03:15 PM
2007 cannot even be considered in this conversation. That team, on paper, was better than the '05 team. Kenny cannot be blamed for the failure of that team.

2007? The bullpen can be questioned, since it was mainly young power arms.

Aardsma, Masset, MacDougal, and Sisco were awful out of the pen.

Also Kenny relied on Darin Erstad to be a big part of that team, and that was a mistake.

Kenny is a good GM, but he's not perfect. Nobody is.

LoveYourSuit
01-08-2009, 03:16 PM
2007 cannot even be considered in this conversation. That team, on paper, was better than the '05 team. Kenny cannot be blamed for the failure of that team.


Why, because it was failed seson? You just can't throw a season out of the equation.

whitesox901
01-08-2009, 03:18 PM
I'm starting to question why he doesn't sign up for an account here and post and answer for his decisions and his judgement. He owes that to us Sox fans. You hear me Kenny? Post, damn you, POST!!!

:redneck

DumpJerry
01-08-2009, 03:26 PM
I'm seeing veteran pitchers that we could use get signed to reasonable 1 year deals. What the hell KW? Our rotation as it is right now, makes me want to puke. I hope something changes before the season begins.

One year deals are not the way to build a solid year-in/year-out team. If we had 40% of our rotation on one year deals, I'd be unhappy with Kenny.

The great thing about Kenny is that he won't sign for the sake of signing. he signs to build on the Master Plan.

I'm starting to question why he doesn't sign up for an account here and post and answer for his decisions and his judgement. He owes that to us Sox fans. You hear me Kenny? Post, damn you, POST!!!
Are you sure he doesn't?:wink:

spawn
01-08-2009, 03:27 PM
One year deals are not the way to build a solid year-in/year-out team. If we had 40% of our rotation on one year deals, I'd be unhappy with Kenny.

The great thing about Kenny is that he won't sign for the sake of signing. he signs to build on the Master Plan.


Are you sure he doesn't?:wink:

Kenny? Is that you??? :tongue:

DumpJerry
01-08-2009, 03:29 PM
Kenny? Is that you??? :tongue:
Amendment 5 - Trial and Punishment, Compensation for Takings. Ratified (http://www.usconstitution.net/constamrat.html#BoR) 12/15/1791.
No person shall be held to answer for a capital, or otherwise infamous crime, unless on a presentment or indictment of a Grand Jury, except in cases arising in the land or naval forces, or in the Militia, when in actual service in time of War or public danger; nor shall any person be subject for the same offense to be twice put in jeopardy of life or limb (http://www.usconstitution.net/glossary.html#DOUBLEJ); nor shall be compelled in any criminal case to be a witness against himself, nor be deprived (http://www.usconstitution.net/glossary.html#DEPRIVE) of life, liberty, or property, without due process (http://www.usconstitution.net/consttop_duep.html) of law; nor shall private property be taken for public use, without just compensation.

spawn
01-08-2009, 03:31 PM
Amendment 5 - Trial and Punishment, Compensation for Takings. Ratified (http://www.usconstitution.net/constamrat.html#BoR) 12/15/1791.
No person shall be held to answer for a capital, or otherwise infamous crime, unless on a presentment or indictment of a Grand Jury, except in cases arising in the land or naval forces, or in the Militia, when in actual service in time of War or public danger; nor shall any person be subject for the same offense to be twice put in jeopardy of life or limb (http://www.usconstitution.net/glossary.html#DOUBLEJ); nor shall be compelled in any criminal case to be a witness against himself, nor be deprived (http://www.usconstitution.net/glossary.html#DEPRIVE) of life, liberty, or property, without due process (http://www.usconstitution.net/consttop_duep.html) of law; nor shall private property be taken for public use, without just compensation.
Lawyers...:rolleyes:


:redneck

RedHeadPaleHoser
01-08-2009, 03:33 PM
The ability of DumpJerry to indemnify himself with a law from 1791 proves he is KW.

If DumpJerry is Kenny Williams, Voodoo must be Chuck Norris. :D:

WhiteSox5187
01-08-2009, 03:33 PM
Blind loyalty sucks as much as this thread.
I agree 110%, but Kenny proved me dead wrong last year, so I'm going to give him the benefit of the doubt this year. But I'm naturally skeptical.

DumpJerry
01-08-2009, 03:33 PM
Lawyers...:rolleyes:


:redneck
GMs........:rolleyes:



:redneck

Lip Man 1
01-08-2009, 03:43 PM
From what I have been told and heard Kenny has not ever visited this web site.

However I have also been told that members of the Sox front office regularly examine the site to get a sense of what Sox fans are thinking.

That info may be passed along to Kenny, it's hard to say for sure.

Lip

doublem23
01-08-2009, 03:47 PM
If KW needs us to tell him we need two more starters, then all hope is lost.

I want Mags back
01-08-2009, 03:50 PM
everybody is just bored......that's all it is....some people on here (myself included) just start a thread because we're dying to have some White Sox excitement

we have a pretty good hockey team this year to cure that. :D:

doublem23
01-08-2009, 03:53 PM
we have a pretty good hockey team this year to cure that. :D:

:hijacked:

spawn
01-08-2009, 03:54 PM
we have a pretty good hockey team this year to cure that. :D:
We also have a pretty decent basketb......oh, wait....







We have a pretty good hockey team this year!:bandance:

voodoochile
01-08-2009, 03:55 PM
The ability of DumpJerry to indemnify himself with a law from 1791 proves he is KW.

If DumpJerry is Kenny Williams, Voodoo must be Chuck Norris. :D:

I'm more like Po...

Frontman
01-08-2009, 03:57 PM
Can we just chalk this all up to press conference envy and just get over it?

The Sox will put a solid team out there. Most of these veteran arms are worth less with each passing week. If Kenny is willing to sign one; why pay for them now it they'll still be there at discount in 2 weeks?

jabrch
01-08-2009, 04:12 PM
Can someone tell me who these good pitchers are who were signed to cheap one year deals? I'm not reading all the way through the smegma here.

areilly
01-08-2009, 04:15 PM
Who else is starting to question the loyalty of our fanbase?

Not me. Now, where's that. . . metal dealie. . . KW uses to. . . dig. . . food?

spawn
01-08-2009, 04:19 PM
Can someone tell me who these good pitchers are who were signed to cheap one year deals? I'm not reading all the way through the smegma here.
John Smoltz and Carl Pavano. I don't think they were mentioned by name, but those are the only two that were signed recently. May Trevor Hoffman as well (although we already have a closer).

jabrch
01-08-2009, 04:31 PM
John Smoltz and Carl Pavano.

Then there is no reason for this silly sort of thread. One of those guys was never going to be with us, and the other we should have no interest in ever seeing pitch for us.

There are probably dozens of good reasons to question KW. Smoltz and Pavano are not anywhere close to that list.

Chicken Dinner
01-08-2009, 04:36 PM
I'll even take a good rumor at this point. The off season quietness is brutal. This can't be the 09 club, can it? :o:

SoxGirl4Life
01-08-2009, 04:50 PM
I'll even take a good rumor at this point. The off season quietness is brutal. This can't be the 09 club, can it? :o:


Hey, these kids can play! lol :duck:

Frontman
01-08-2009, 05:04 PM
I'll even take a good rumor at this point. The off season quietness is brutal. This can't be the 09 club, can it? :o:

Considering Kenny himself just last week that he didn't think the Sox were done?

No, this probably isn't the 2009 club.

whitesox901
01-08-2009, 05:08 PM
Considering Kenny himself just last week that he didn't think the Sox were done?

No, this probably isn't the 2009 club.

WSI dosn't use Logic, only typing in pure rage & frustration :D:

Believe It!
01-08-2009, 05:57 PM
2007? The bullpen can be questioned, since it was mainly young power arms.

Aardsma, Masset, MacDougal, and Sisco were awful out of the pen.

Also Kenny relied on Darin Erstad to be a big part of that team, and that was a mistake.

Kenny is a good GM, but he's not perfect. Nobody is.


MacDougal was coming off a pretty good year and a half, nobody expected him to completely fall apart. Sisco had a solid year in 2005, and the Sox obviously thought they could get him to rekindle that. The only "true" question marks were Masset and Aardsma, and if you remember Aardsma started off the season on fire and then just imploded.

As far as Erstad, he was not brought here to be as big a part as he ended up being, between injuries and guys just flat out not producing, he ended up being a blessing for the majority of that season.

No one ever said that Kenny is perfect, he is obviously not. But take a look around the league and you will only find a handful of Rockstar GMs. The majority of them miss more often than they hit. I am happy with the job that Kenny does, especially when he has to work for one of the stingiest owners in sports.

TheCommander
01-08-2009, 09:14 PM
I'm seeing veteran pitchers that we could use get signed to reasonable 1 year deals. What the hell KW? Our rotation as it is right now, makes me want to puke. I hope something changes before the season begins.

How do you know whether or not he attempted to sign the players you are referencing??:?:

Just because they signed with other teams doesn't mean he didn't have any interest or make any offers. But I guess you were either privy to everything that went on behind closed doors or think that if it isn't speculated about in the media,it didn't happen.:rolleyes:

Zisk77
01-08-2009, 11:11 PM
How do you know whether or not he attempted to sign the players you are referencing??:?:

Just because they signed with other teams doesn't mean he didn't have any interest or make any offers. But I guess you were either privy to everything that went on behind closed doors or think that if it isn't speculated about in the media,it didn't happen.:rolleyes:

Maybe he is kenny williams and he is just dissing himself so he can double secret fly under the radar, did u ever think of that, huh?:redneck

DumpJerry
01-08-2009, 11:22 PM
Maybe he is kenny williams and he is just dissing himself so he can double secret fly under the radar, did u ever think of that, huh?:redneck
Multiple registrations (http://www.whitesoxinteractive.com/vbulletin/showpost.php?p=2134895&postcount=27) are not allowed here.:wink:

drewcifer
01-08-2009, 11:28 PM
How do you know whether or not he attempted to sign the players you are referencing??:?:

Just because they signed with other teams doesn't mean he didn't have any interest or make any offers. But I guess you were either privy to everything that went on behind closed doors or think that if it isn't speculated about in the media,it didn't happen.:rolleyes:

Who cares. He has 1 job - to build a roster. I don't pay to watch what he tried to sign. I pay for what he did.

We have holes to fill, his job to fill them. That simple.

Iwritecode
01-09-2009, 09:41 AM
I'm more like Po...

http://tbn1.google.com/images?q=tbn:-x0NnVvWeSfVcM:http://www.teletubbies.co.uk/en/resources/wallpapers/1024x768/photo-po.jpg

:scratch:

NorthSideSox72
01-09-2009, 09:54 AM
Who cares. He has 1 job - to build a roster. I don't pay to watch what he tried to sign. I pay for what he did.

We have holes to fill, his job to fill them. That simple.

If you are so results-oriented, then you should be pretty content right now, since its still January and most teams hadn't done jack until the past week or so. Before then, the Yankees were the only team that had been really aggressive. So, if its the final roster that's important, there is no need to panic before March.

Kenny was just setting the table in the early offseason. I doubt he's done yet, just like it was clear that the other teams weren't done yet until this recent few days of furious activity. And most teams still aren't done.

doublem23
01-09-2009, 10:10 AM
Who cares. He has 1 job - to build a roster. I don't pay to watch what he tried to sign. I pay for what he did.

We have holes to fill, his job to fill them. That simple.

I didn't know the season starts this week.

jabrch
01-09-2009, 10:10 AM
I pay for what he did.

You pay for admission to a baseball game. That's the extent of your explicit contract with the Chicago White Sox. (unless you have some relationship other than merely a fan who buys tickets to games)

hi im skot
01-09-2009, 10:13 AM
http://img.photobucket.com/albums/v518/brazilliantskot/hang.jpg

spawn
01-09-2009, 10:15 AM
I didn't know the season starts this week.
Geez...where have you been? On a deserted island or something?

voodoochile
01-09-2009, 10:19 AM
http://tbn1.google.com/images?q=tbn:-x0NnVvWeSfVcM:http://www.teletubbies.co.uk/en/resources/wallpapers/1024x768/photo-po.jpg

:scratch:

http://www.jimhillmedia.com/mb/images/upload/kung-fu-panda-maquette.jpg

Iwritecode
01-09-2009, 10:57 AM
http://www.jimhillmedia.com/mb/images/upload/kung-fu-panda-maquette.jpg

I haven't seen that movie yet. :redface:

doublem23
01-09-2009, 11:01 AM
I haven't seen that movie yet. :redface:

Lucky you.

voodoochile
01-09-2009, 11:06 AM
Lucky you.

Oh no... it's a classic. Fat guys doing kung fu...

RedHeadPaleHoser
01-09-2009, 11:13 AM
WSI dosn't use Logic, only typing in pure rage & frustration :D:

I was going to say I'm only one fan of many so my opinions about what KW should do don't really matter.

However, based on the above quote......:tongue:

Iwritecode
01-09-2009, 11:19 AM
Oh no... it's a classic. Fat guys doing kung fu...

:hijacked:

Other than the Shrek movies, I haven't been all that impressed with Dreamworks movies. I much prefer Pixar.

drewcifer
01-09-2009, 01:18 PM
If you are so results-oriented, then you should be pretty content right now, since its still January and most teams hadn't done jack until the past week or so. Before then, the Yankees were the only team that had been really aggressive. So, if its the final roster that's important, there is no need to panic before March.

Kenny was just setting the table in the early offseason. I doubt he's done yet, just like it was clear that the other teams weren't done yet until this recent few days of furious activity. And most teams still aren't done.

Wait a second - I wasn't saying I'm dissatisfied or satisfied, or even results oriented. The point I was making is that it doesn't matter who the GM tried to sign. A fanbase based isn't buying tickets based on what it's front office tried to put together. People pay (or don't) to watch the team assembled. Somehow that is taken to mean I think we suck, the sky is falling, etc.

There's alot of that that happens here, sure...but there's also as many or more people interpreting almost every benign comment to mean they are ready to jump off a ledge.

I agree that there's still lots of time, and never once said we're doomed, or that I have some obligation to watch the team.

Frontman
01-09-2009, 03:16 PM
Who cares. He has 1 job - to build a roster. I don't pay to watch what he tried to sign. I pay for what he did.

We have holes to fill, his job to fill them. That simple.

Ok then drew; what is KW supposed to do when say the Torii Hunter deal went south?

"Please sign with us, Torii;" Kenny

"No," Torii

"Pretty please?"

"No."

"I'll let you make fun of Ozzie in the public."

"No."

"I'll buy you a pony."

"No."

kittle42
01-09-2009, 03:23 PM
Ok then drew; what is KW supposed to do when say the Torii Hunter deal went south?

"Please sign with us, Torii;" Kenny

"No," Torii

"Pretty please?"

"No."

"I'll let you make fun of Ozzie in the public."

"No."

"I'll buy you a pony."

"No."

Drewcifer's point is - I think - that no one is faulting Williams for "not trying." They're faulting him for not getting results, regardless of the reasons. Yes, there are often extenuating circumstances, and can only be one winner out of 30 for any player's services, but in the end, it's results that matter.

voodoochile
01-09-2009, 03:28 PM
Drewcifer's point is - I think - that no one is faulting Williams for "not trying." They're faulting him for not getting results, regardless of the reasons. Yes, there are often extenuating circumstances, and can only be one winner out of 30 for any player's services, but in the end, it's results that matter.

Depends on how you measure results. If you measure results by paper wins and theoretical championships based on roster talent signed then the Tigers GM is the man if you measure it in terms of actual wins and actual championships then KW gets the nod.

Does anyone actually believe KW doesn't try to build the best team he can each and every year given the constraints of whatever budget JR lays on him? I'd think by now it would be a point beyond discussion...

dickallen15
01-09-2009, 03:36 PM
Depends on how you measure results. If you measure results by paper wins and theoretical championships based on roster talent signed then the Tigers GM is the man if you measure it in terms of actual wins and actual championships then KW gets the nod.

Does anyone actually believe KW doesn't try to build the best team he can each and every year given the constraints of whatever budget JR lays on him? I'd think by now it would be a point beyond discussion...

I don't think anyone thinks he doesn't try. Did anyone think Jerry Manuel didn't try? Or even Terry Bevington? Results matter. KW has been afforded the highest payroll in his division for most of his tenure. He did win once, and lost in the first round of the playoffs once. That's good enough for some to never question anything he does, and really believe Jerry Owens will be a fine leadoff man, and really believe that Fields and Lillibridge totally stinking up AAA in 2008 is irrelevant and they will be big contributors in 2009. Marquez will be a fine #4 starter even though he wasn't anywhere near one in AAA. That Jayson Nix is a good bet to contribute disregarding he was released from AAA by Colorado and no one, not even KW claimed him on waivers. That Nunez, a throw in for a .219 hitting strikeout machine, is a very good prospect even though he is now with his 4th organization, all because Kenny says so.

I am of the belief KW will still make several moves, but if he doesn't and goes on with the belief that all of these guys are going to be successful and the team falls on its face, its on him. There appears to be plenty of bargains this offseason.

Jurr
01-09-2009, 03:43 PM
This is more of that same old crap with "name players". Ask Detroit how the acquisitions of Cabrera and Willis added to their championship goals? "Experts" had them penciled in as champions. The Yankees have added high profile players for years, and since they began a more aggressive approach to free agency, they have had 0 WS rings to show for it. Tampa and Minnesota had strong runs last year on the backs of young, UNPROVEN players. Do you think fans of those ballclubs were supremely confident going into the season? Nope. Hell, Minnesota fans believed that they were in 100% rebuilding mode. They played 163 games before being broomed.

There comes a point that you have to take a step back as an organization and stop listening to the clamoring of fans and media for big names.
Fans in Boston probably held their collective breath when Dustin Pedroia was named a starter. They would've preferred some big name player. It worked out well, don't you think? This is one example, but you get my point. You sometimes have to take a chance on youth.

If Marquez, Poreda, Getz, Fields, Lillebridge, or any of the other young players gets a chance to play and shows reallly good potential, you are immediately thrilled because you know A.)You have them for a while, B.)You have them cheap, allowing for flexibility, and C.)They may end up being a core player or even a superstar for the Sox. This undoubtedly comes with growing pains, but you have to take that risk.

If you keep piling on proven players, your payroll continues to skyrocket. You end up having tons of money tied up into players that may not even put on cleats an entire season due to catastrophic injury. Players of this nature decline before their contracts are up. You have no balance at all in that system.

Yes, the average fan is going to be steamed because there's not some sense of contentment at every position. You may have seen one of these youngsters take a few at bats in September and weren't impressed. Some may not even have MLB experience. It's nice to get that warm and fuzzy feeling when you see an established pro penciled into a spot because you've seen them produce and you assume that the same production is going to lift your ballclub. There's something to be said about the excitement that can be had from unknown commodities.

It's up to the veterans to instill a standard of expectations on these young players. They must come in ready to play, ready to study, and be open eared. They must take constructive criticism well, as it can help them learn at a quicker pace. As long as the vets keep expectations high, the young players will follow suit.

Kenny has been smart throughout these proceedings. Every good team hits that point where they realize they need to cut back on high price tag free agents and trust a little old fashioned scouting and development. The Sox are making the right decision. Have patience while the young players develop. There may be some future All-Stars in this group. You won't know until you let 'em play.

champagne030
01-09-2009, 04:24 PM
Fans in Boston probably held their collective breath when Dustin Pedroia was named a starter. They would've preferred some big name player. It worked out well, don't you think? This is one example, but you get my point. You sometimes have to take a chance on youth.

I hope you're not trying to make your point by using Pedroia as an example.

We don't have anyone in our 2B mix that is thought of nearly as high as Pedroia was as a prospect.

I think the bigger problem is we're trying to break in 3 new position players and two SP's, while at the same time raising ticket prices and slashing payroll. Some people are rather pissed at this approach. Hopefully KW is not done making acquisitions.

kittle42
01-09-2009, 04:25 PM
Does anyone actually believe KW doesn't try to build the best team he can each and every year given the constraints of whatever budget JR lays on him?

I really hope not. Though I do question the retention of DeWayne Wise, even if he paid the Sox to play. :cool:

Lip Man 1
01-09-2009, 04:34 PM
Jurr:

As Daver has pointed out often, the Sox minor league system has been in disarray for at least a decade.

Figuring that "kids" are going to "save the day" (for want of a better word) is fine if you have an organization like the Angels or Minnesota that seems to produce competent kids in spades but specifically trying that with the White Sox farm system may be a recipe for disaster.

Now it's gotten to the point, which has been pointed out, the Sox are acquiring prospects who have a history of mediocrity with other organizations.

Could they turn it around with the Sox? Maybe...anything's possible, but to me, based of their minor league track record, this seems like a long shot.

Plus you have a fan base that in general terms, expected a much different "philosophy" since winning a World Series in October 2005 and that was never the most patient bunch in the first place (and I'm not blaming them for that tendency on the contrary I applaud it.)

Like I said earlier in another thread, given everything that's at stake and given that the circumstances and expectations have been raised tremendously since October 2005, if nothing of substance changes between now and April, this will be the biggest gamble by Kenny since he took over.

The credit or fault will be completely his and his alone.

Lip

voodoochile
01-09-2009, 04:49 PM
I don't think anyone thinks he doesn't try. Did anyone think Jerry Manuel didn't try? Or even Terry Bevington? Results matter. KW has been afforded the highest payroll in his division for most of his tenure. He did win once, and lost in the first round of the playoffs once. That's good enough for some to never question anything he does, and really believe Jerry Owens will be a fine leadoff man, and really believe that Fields and Lillibridge totally stinking up AAA in 2008 is irrelevant and they will be big contributors in 2009. Marquez will be a fine #4 starter even though he wasn't anywhere near one in AAA. That Jayson Nix is a good bet to contribute disregarding he was released from AAA by Colorado and no one, not even KW claimed him on waivers. That Nunez, a throw in for a .219 hitting strikeout machine, is a very good prospect even though he is now with his 4th organization, all because Kenny says so.

I am of the belief KW will still make several moves, but if he doesn't and goes on with the belief that all of these guys are going to be successful and the team falls on its face, its on him. There appears to be plenty of bargains this offseason.

Certainly the first part of you post is enough for me to give KW a chance and the benefit of the doubt. If this is as good a team as he can field this year given the constraints of the budget he has to work with which not only includes diminished revenue and a tightening economy which has seen a record number of Broadway shows close in a record brief period of time and which is seeing entertainment money dry up then I trust that is the case.

Sometimes the best you can do is the best you can do. I mean two years ago no one knew that the economy was going to tank big time and Jose Contreras would blow out his leg sucking up $10M of a greatly deminished budget.

Let's say this is the final roster. What do you expect KW to say, "Woooooo... this team sucks. I mean I've smelt some turds before but this one is as smelly as I've ever laid. God, we are pathetic. I mean Nunez? Nix? Marquez? Fields? BWAHAHAHAHAHAHAHA! If I'm the rest of the division, I'm LMAO at the weakness that is the Sox."

If he did, would you want him to keep his job? I'd be calling for his head because he not only would have destroyed the confidence of the players in question, but the ticket sales would get even worse.

Some of what is going on actually is by design. Fields and Getz for example are ready for their shot at the bigs and if Fields does no better than he did over the second half of 2007 but stretches the numbers to a full season, he'll be fine batting 7th and handling third. Will he be Robin Ventura in his prime good? No, he won't even be as good as Crede defensively, but if he cracks 35 HR this year, he won't exactly suck.

That's the crazy part. You folks are writing off players before they've had their shot, some of whom have performed adequately on the big league level in the past. Then you turn around and rip on KW for not spending more money (when it really looks like he hasn't got a lot to spend) and then you go one step further and rip KW for not "telling it like it is" (read: as you perceive it to be). Finally, you take it one step further and act like nothing KW has done in the past matters at all.

Here, I'll say it for KW... "You suck, you all suck! You are the suckiest bunch of whiney excuse for sucky fans who have ever sucked." Get over yourselves...

Daver
01-09-2009, 05:04 PM
That's the crazy part. You folks are writing off players before they've had their shot, some of whom have performed adequately on the big league level in the past. Then you turn around and rip on KW for not spending more money (when it really looks like he hasn't got a lot to spend) and then you go one step further and rip KW for not "telling it like it is" (read: as you perceive it to be). Finally, you take it one step further and act like nothing KW has done in the past matters at all.


Define adequate as it relates to Josh Field's ability to play third base, by my definition adequate is a severe overstatement.

All 5 starting pitchers better become SO pitchers this spring, or we could be in for some very ugly 20 run games this season.

voodoochile
01-09-2009, 05:08 PM
Define adequate as it relates to Josh Field's ability to play third base, by my definition adequate is a severe overstatement.

All 5 starting pitchers better become SO pitchers this spring, or we could be in for some very ugly 20 run games this season.

Adequate for me would mean league average. That is what I am hoping for out of him. Seems lots of teams struggle to find good defensive 3B and end up putting out a guy who can hit and not completely embarrass himself in the field. If that's what Josh brings then the Sox are no worse off than a good portion of the teams in the majors. I'm also hoping working with Joey Cora will improve his footwork as it supposedly did last spring before the injury. None of us got to see the "new improved" Josh Fields because he got hurt and then he never really got back on track.

Daver
01-09-2009, 05:19 PM
Adequate for me would mean league average. That is what I am hoping for out of him. Seems lots of teams struggle to find good defensive 3B and end up putting out a guy who can hit and not completely embarrass himself in the field. If that's what Josh brings then the Sox are no worse off than a good portion of the teams in the majors. I'm also hoping working with Joey Cora will improve his footwork as it supposedly did last spring before the injury. None of us got to see the "new improved" Josh Fields because he got hurt and then he never really got back on track.


Learning to play third base from a second baseman does not really inspire much hope.

voodoochile
01-09-2009, 05:34 PM
Learning to play third base from a second baseman does not really inspire much hope.

Nice soundbite. Are you actually saying that every single position needs a coach that has played said position before? Baseball must be the only sport in the world like that...

Besides, Joey did play 4 games at 3B in his career if it's that big of a deal.

Daver
01-09-2009, 05:46 PM
Nice soundbite. Are you actually saying that every single position needs a coach that has played said position before? Baseball must be the only sport in the world like that...

Besides, Joey did play 4 games at 3B in his career if it's that big of a deal.

Where did I say that?

I'd be happy if they made minor leaguers actually learn to play their position before putting them on the MLB roster, even though I realize it is a truly bizarre concept.

PeoriaSoxFan
01-09-2009, 07:49 PM
When I first read this thread title, I almost laughed...now I am starting to panic. I was disturbed today to read that the Red Sox just signed Baldelli for only $500M, plus Smoltz for $5MM. They also signed Brad Penny for $5MM. I think these are excellent low risk/high reward moves. I was hoping for Baldelli to come here. You can argue, and rightfully so, that the guy has been hurt/sick all the time. But, for $500M? Plus, I think Penny could easily rebound. It appears that there are free agents out there now on the cheap. Kenny step up...or, are we really now getting cheap? Are we really going into next year with BA and Owens as our CFers? Also, Marquez as the 5th starter? I know it worked last year, but at least Danks and Floyd had pitched a game before on the ML level. I continue to think that KW has some moves up his sleeve, but I am starting to wonder.

voodoochile
01-09-2009, 07:55 PM
Where did I say that?

I'd be happy if they made minor leaguers actually learn to play their position before putting them on the MLB roster, even though I realize it is a truly bizarre concept.

Okay, I agree with that, but this is what it is at this moment in time. Hopefully the changes you want to see enacted will come with time, but Fields is the best chance the Sox have right now to have a productive year at 3B.

Daver
01-09-2009, 08:03 PM
Okay, I agree with that, but this is what it is at this moment in time. Hopefully the changes you want to see enacted will come with time, but Fields is the best chance the Sox have right now to have a productive year at 3B.

We will agree to disagree, poor defense and poor plate discipline is not a recipe for production, it is helping a team lose in twenty run games.

2906
01-09-2009, 08:17 PM
Jurr:

As Daver has pointed out often, the Sox minor league system has been in disarray for at least a decade.

Figuring that "kids" are going to "save the day" (for want of a better word) is fine if you have an organization like the Angels or Minnesota that seems to produce competent kids in spades but specifically trying that with the White Sox farm system may be a recipe for disaster.

Now it's gotten to the point, which has been pointed out, the Sox are acquiring prospects who have a history of mediocrity with other organizations.

Could they turn it around with the Sox? Maybe...anything's possible, but to me, based of their minor league track record, this seems like a long shot.

Plus you have a fan base that in general terms, expected a much different "philosophy" since winning a World Series in October 2005 and that was never the most patient bunch in the first place (and I'm not blaming them for that tendency on the contrary I applaud it.)

Like I said earlier in another thread, given everything that's at stake and given that the circumstances and expectations have been raised tremendously since October 2005, if nothing of substance changes between now and April, this will be the biggest gamble by Kenny since he took over.

The credit or fault will be completely his and his alone.

Lip

Do you trust Buddy Bell?

It's a new day Mark. It's well past time to let go of Sept. 1967 and whatever else is still sticking in your craw. They made substantive changes in the minor league system and those changes continue. New instructional people have been brought in and Bell basically has carte blanche on how to structure minor league player development, that's why he was hired. Let it play out. We'll have a better idea of how things are working in 8-9 months.

2906
01-09-2009, 08:21 PM
Fields is the best chance the Sox have right now to have a productive year at 3B.

They're going to give their young player a chance to see if he can get the job done. He (Fields) was in poor health last year, supposedly he is healthy now and is working to improve.

If he flames out or does very poorly, the White Sox have Ken Williams as GM, and I can't recall when he's been unwilling to make changes. He likes to give players opportunities to show they can do the job but he's not afraid to pull the plug if they can't.

I will admit to not being thrilled with Josh Fields but I'm willing to let it play out. Williams, at least at this point, seems to be taking the same approach.

TheCommander
01-10-2009, 12:39 AM
Who cares. He has 1 job - to build a roster. I don't pay to watch what he tried to sign. I pay for what he did.

We have holes to fill, his job to fill them. That simple.

I think you missed my point. The OP was blasting KW when other teams signed players he thought Williams should have went after-and implied that KW wasn't trying to sign them,when in fact none of us know whether he did or not.

4 points
01-10-2009, 03:29 AM
Wait a second - I wasn't saying I'm dissatisfied or satisfied, or even results oriented. The point I was making is that it doesn't matter who the GM tried to sign. A fanbase based isn't buying tickets based on what it's front office tried to put together. People pay (or don't) to watch the team assembled. Somehow that is taken to mean I think we suck, the sky is falling, etc.

There's alot of that that happens here, sure...but there's also as many or more people interpreting almost every benign comment to mean they are ready to jump off a ledge.

I agree that there's still lots of time, and never once said we're doomed, or that I have some obligation to watch the team.

OK, then I`ll say it. WE ARE DOOMED.:gulp::gulp::gulp:

4 points
01-10-2009, 03:42 AM
Depends on how you measure results. If you measure results by paper wins and theoretical championships based on roster talent signed then the Tigers GM is the man if you measure it in terms of actual wins and actual championships then KW gets the nod.

Does anyone actually believe KW doesn't try to build the best team he can each and every year given the constraints of whatever budget JR lays on him? I'd think by now it would be a point beyond discussion...

Finally, the magic words, " constraints of the budget".

The word has come down from MOUNT REINSDORF, cut the budget, and rebuild. Kenny is stashing young players to improve our fortunes for when the economy improves, he also knows that he can`t trade some veterans, so keep them and still perhaps be competative in an incredibly weak division. But if anybody really believes that he has a bunch of moves planned to bring in veteran top line talent at the last minute, then they`re living in LaLa land.:gulp::gulp::gulp:

4 points
01-10-2009, 03:55 AM
Certainly the first part of you post is enough for me to give KW a chance and the benefit of the doubt. If this is as good a team as he can field this year given the constraints of the budget he has to work with which not only includes diminished revenue and a tightening economy which has seen a record number of Broadway shows close in a record brief period of time and which is seeing entertainment money dry up then I trust that is the case.

Sometimes the best you can do is the best you can do. I mean two years ago no one knew that the economy was going to tank big time and Jose Contreras would blow out his leg sucking up $10M of a greatly deminished budget.

Let's say this is the final roster. What do you expect KW to say, "Woooooo... this team sucks. I mean I've smelt some turds before but this one is as smelly as I've ever laid. God, we are pathetic. I mean Nunez? Nix? Marquez? Fields? BWAHAHAHAHAHAHAHA! If I'm the rest of the division, I'm LMAO at the weakness that is the Sox."

If he did, would you want him to keep his job? I'd be calling for his head because he not only would have destroyed the confidence of the players in question, but the ticket sales would get even worse.

Some of what is going on actually is by design. Fields and Getz for example are ready for their shot at the bigs and if Fields does no better than he did over the second half of 2007 but stretches the numbers to a full season, he'll be fine batting 7th and handling third. Will he be Robin Ventura in his prime good? No, he won't even be as good as Crede defensively, but if he cracks 35 HR this year, he won't exactly suck.

That's the crazy part. You folks are writing off players before they've had their shot, some of whom have performed adequately on the big league level in the past. Then you turn around and rip on KW for not spending more money (when it really looks like he hasn't got a lot to spend) and then you go one step further and rip KW for not "telling it like it is" (read: as you perceive it to be). Finally, you take it one step further and act like nothing KW has done in the past matters at all.

Here, I'll say it for KW... "You suck, you all suck! You are the suckiest bunch of whiney excuse for sucky fans who have ever sucked." Get over yourselves...

Thanks for the lecture, now, try not to cut your hand shaving be fore bed time.:makefaces::makefaces::makefaces:

4 points
01-10-2009, 03:56 AM
Adequate for me would mean league average. That is what I am hoping for out of him. Seems lots of teams struggle to find good defensive 3B and end up putting out a guy who can hit and not completely embarrass himself in the field. If that's what Josh brings then the Sox are no worse off than a good portion of the teams in the majors. I'm also hoping working with Joey Cora will improve his footwork as it supposedly did last spring before the injury. None of us got to see the "new improved" Josh Fields because he got hurt and then he never really got back on track.

You can`t see what does`nt exist.:gulp:

guillensdisciple
01-10-2009, 04:07 AM
Finally, the magic words, " constraints of the budget".

The word has come down from MOUNT REINSDORF, cut the budget, and rebuild. Kenny is stashing young players to improve our fortunes for when the economy improves, he also knows that he can`t trade some veterans, so keep them and still perhaps be competative in an incredibly weak division. But if anybody really believes that he has a bunch of moves planned to bring in veteran top line talent at the last minute, then they`re living in LaLa land.:gulp::gulp::gulp:

You don't know any of this, all you think is just that "thinking". At this point we all have our opinions, but nothing is certain until the year begins. There aren't a bunch of moves but there sure as hell are some being processed through the mind of Kenny Williams.

Thanks for the lecture, now, try not to cut your hand shaving be fore bed time.:makefaces::makefaces::makefaces:

What does that mean?

You can`t see what does`nt exist.:gulp:

Doesn't. Please stop using emotion icons at every possible moment, it is quite irritating.

Frontman
01-10-2009, 06:51 AM
Drewcifer's point is - I think - that no one is faulting Williams for "not trying." They're faulting him for not getting results, regardless of the reasons. Yes, there are often extenuating circumstances, and can only be one winner out of 30 for any player's services, but in the end, it's results that matter.

What's the more important result, the fancy press confrence or making the playoffs? Name the "big signing" prior to 2005 for the Sox; that ESPN felt compelled to cover like the Fukudome or Milton Bradley signing?

I don't care about the flash or the sizzle of a move, I can about the team's performance. And one week into January isn't the day I judge the moves of the 2009 season; it will be the day after the Sox play their last meaningful game for the season.

WSox597
01-10-2009, 07:22 AM
Oh no... it's a classic. Fat guys doing kung fu...

Steven Seagal is making a nice living at it. :D:

champagne030
01-10-2009, 08:44 AM
I don't care about the flash or the sizzle of a move, I can about the team's performance. And one week into January isn't the day I judge the moves of the 2009 season; it will be the day after the Sox play their last meaningful game for the season.

It may not be your intention, but this comes off as "don't judge the team until the season is over" and then the typical reply is "hindsight is 20/20".

I'm not trying to start a debate, but it's getting late in the game for 2009. The options are getting smaller each day. There's still quite a few players that are better than our current options, hopefully Kenny will choose a few.

voodoochile
01-10-2009, 09:38 AM
It may not be your intention, but this comes off as "don't judge the team until the season is over" and then the typical reply is "hindsight is 20/20".

I'm not trying to start a debate, but it's getting late in the game for 2009. The options are getting smaller each day. There's still quite a few players that are better than our current options, hopefully Kenny will choose a few.

I would bet that part of what is going on is teams are waiting as long as possible to see how their season ticket base turns out. That's why the only teams who are spending big money are essentially recession proof. Once the rest of the league shakes out, there may be some bargains available via trade too as teams feel the pinch of lost revenue and decide they need to trim a few million.

Like it or not, it's going to be a late signing period for the majority of players. All the teams are waiting at the moment and the few who aren't have spent most of what they will or filled the needs they had.

Here's hoping KW can find a few million and grab a starting pitcher at the least.

champagne030
01-10-2009, 10:28 AM
I would bet that part of what is going on is teams are waiting as long as possible to see how their season ticket base turns out. That's why the only teams who are spending big money are essentially recession proof. Once the rest of the league shakes out, there may be some bargains available via trade too as teams feel the pinch of lost revenue and decide they need to trim a few million.

Like it or not, it's going to be a late signing period for the majority of players. All the teams are waiting at the moment and the few who aren't have spent most of what they will or filled the needs they had.

Here's hoping KW can find a few million and grab a starting pitcher at the least.

I'd buy this theory, but 'our' marketing guy is telling us that ticket sales are not feeling the crunch of the economy. Ticket renewals are at 95% and you cannot upgrade seat locations because of the renewals. :shrug:

That being the case, we've got ~20M to spend, without considering the ticket price increase.

Lip Man 1
01-10-2009, 10:36 AM
2906:

Whatever Buddy Bell is trying to do is going to take time. How does that help this club in the hear and now?

"Some of us aren't worried about tomorrow because we might not be around then." -- Al Lopez

----------------------------------------------------------

Champagne:

And that is an interesting question you pose. Brooks said ticket renewals are (direct quote) "holding steady"

There seems to be a disconnect between what he is saying (naturally if true) and what Kenny is saying about "bumping up against our limit."

I'm sure there's more to this than meets the eye.

Lip

2906
01-10-2009, 10:56 AM
2906:

Whatever Buddy Bell is trying to do is going to take time. How does that help this club in the hear and now?

"Some of us aren't worried about tomorrow because we might not be around then." -- Al Lopez

----------------------------------------------------------

Champagne:

And that is an interesting question you pose. Brooks said ticket renewals are (direct quote) "holding steady"

There seems to be a disconnect between what he is saying (naturally if true) and what Kenny is saying about "bumping up against our limit."

I'm sure there's more to this than meets the eye.

Lip

Mark, Buddy Bell was hired last year. I trust him. Maybe I have blind trust on this issue but he is by all accounts a good baseball man and knows what he's doing. He's already had a year to put his stamp on things and many changes have been made.

They've brought in new instructional people and coaches and managers, not only in the lower levels but AA and AAA. If you're training these players the right way in AA and AAA, doesn't it stand to reason a player or two or three can help the White Sox in 2009? I think it does.

If the White Sox don't look farther than 8 months ahead, which seems to be as far as you want them to look ahead, they are screwed. They have to inject youth into this lineup. The solution isn't always "let's sign Orlando Hudson, let's trade for Chone Figgins". You above anyone should understand that. Those 1960's teams you loved so much did the exact same thing. Guys like Tommie Agee and Don Buford were sprinkled in and it made a big difference. Much more of a difference than aging guys like Smokey Burgess and Rocky Colavito.

Further ... don't you think lots of veteran players will be available in late June and July? With many franchises tightening the belt, I believe there will be. The White Sox are in a better position (prospect wise) than they were a year ago, not just from trades but also their drafting and development. You know Kenny Williams isn't shy about trading prospects for proven talent. Do you think it's likely he'll make a deal in June or July? I do. If so, and it's prospects for proven talent, won't that help the 2009 club? You see, everything is interwoven, you can look at things in isolation if you want but you won't be seeing the whole picture.

On the tickets thing. Let's suppose renewals and new sales are holding steady. Don't you think revenue has taken a hit from advertising, corporate sponsorships, and so on? I do. Did you know the White Sox opened a new Dominican Republic baseball academy in the last year? That costs money. Beefing up the infrastructure, as it were, costs money. Not making excuses, but looking at things with a wide angle lens.

Bill Naharodny
01-10-2009, 11:47 AM
:chickenlittle:threadsucks


Predictable.

TomBradley72
01-10-2009, 11:55 AM
My $0.02:


I don't think KW is done, so I'll reserve judgement until I see our Opening Day roster.
While renewals are steady, the WSox may be very concerned about walk up/single game sales, as well as their advertising/sponsorship revenue streams this year. I think most business people with financial/economic expertise (like JR) believe the economy will get worse from where it is now before it's going to get better. If we're in the worst economic times since the Great Depression, this may be the first time most of us see the economy directly impact major league attendance. So I don't think the payroll argument is necessarily b.s. Unfortunately we have $25MM tied up in Thome and Contreras.
KW is also paying the price for overall condition of our farm system under his leadership (both as GM as well as other roles). If/when you make the call that you are going to rebuild/replenish your minor league system (upgrading your scouting, player development, Dominican Academy, etc.), unless you are going to drastically increase your overall spending it means resources have to be re-routed from somewhere else. This may be another reason for the budget of the major league level as they try to "catch up" on the quality of their minor league system.
In some ways an argument can be made that Fields, Getz, Richard might out produce the 2008 Crede/Uribe/Cabrera/Vazquez group they are replacing. I'm willing to wait and see for now.

Noneck
01-10-2009, 12:19 PM
Further ... don't you think lots of veteran players will be available in late June and July? With many franchises tightening the belt, I believe there will be. The White Sox are in a better position (prospect wise) than they were a year ago, not just from trades but also their drafting and development. You know Kenny Williams isn't shy about trading prospects for proven talent. Do you think it's likely he'll make a deal in June or July? I do. If so, and it's prospects for proven talent, won't that help the 2009 club? You see, everything is interwoven, you can look at things in isolation if you want but you won't be seeing the whole picture.



Your assumptions about available help in June or July is based on being in the hunt at that time. If the Sox are buried as Cleveland was last year this doesn't come into play. And if you think moves will be made at mid year for the future, with the Sox being buried and attendance down as a result, you are sorely mistaken. The only moves we will see is wholesale dumping.

jabrch
01-10-2009, 12:21 PM
2906:

Whatever Buddy Bell is trying to do is going to take time. How does that help this club in the hear and now?

"Some of us aren't worried about tomorrow because we might not be around then." -- Al Lopez



Lip - we made the post season this year. It's not like we were 20 games out and needed to do a ton of work - right?

And as far as the Lopez quote goes, you sure take things literally when you want to. It is KW's job to manage a team for today and tomorrow. You'd be awful pissed if he managed just for 2009, made it to the playoffs again, and then had a team that would take 5 years to get back to .500. Right?

2906
01-10-2009, 12:27 PM
Your assumptions about available help in June or July is based on being in the hunt at that time. If the Sox are buried as Cleveland was last year this doesn't come into play. And if you think moves will be made at mid year for the future, with the Sox being buried and attendance down as a result, you are sorely mistaken. The only moves we will see is wholesale dumping.

I'm not assuming anything, merely stating it's entirely possible. Just as it's entirely possible they'll be within striking distance. You don't know if they will or won't, nor do I.

Nor did I say moves would be made for the future at mid year. Not sure how you got that impression. What I did say was players can be added at mid year because in my estimation there will be veterans available.

You think the only moves we'll see is wholesale dumping? How do you reach that conclusion? Is it because you say so?

Noneck
01-10-2009, 12:38 PM
What I did say was players can be added at mid year because in my estimation there will be veterans available.

You think the only moves we'll see is wholesale dumping? How do you reach that conclusion? Is it because you say so?

Please tell me when the Sox added veterans for future years when they were out of the hunt. Maybe its happened but I don't remember.

The Sox are currently cutting payroll, why would you think that more payroll would not be cut when attendance and revenue does not meet expectations?

2906
01-10-2009, 12:48 PM
Please tell me when the Sox added veterans for future years when they were out of the hunt. Maybe its happened but I don't remember.

The Sox are currently cutting payroll, why would you think that more payroll would not be cut when attendance and revenue does not meet expectations?

Let me take it a little more slowly.

Liptak was asking how would the 2009 team be helped. I suggested in this economic environment, it was likely/possible veteran players would be available in trade come June or July. Those veteran players could be acquired for prospects, especially since the White Sox have deepened their prospect pool recently. The veteran players they might acquire could help for the 2009 season.

Those players might be guys on one year deals, so the financial impact would be minimized. It's certainly not far fetched and it's certainly not my own idea. Williams himself mentioned the same thing in the press conference after one of the trades ... the Javier Vazquez trade I believe.

If the White Sox are within striking distance or competing for the division come June or July, do you really think they wouldn't try to improve the team? It's Ken Williams at the helm and this isn't 1997. If the team is winning, walk up attendance is likely to be better. It's all connected.

Noneck
01-10-2009, 01:10 PM
Let me take it a little more slowly.

Liptak was asking how would the 2009 team be helped. I suggested in this economic environment, it was likely/possible veteran players would be available in trade come June or July. Those veteran players could be acquired for prospects, especially since the White Sox have deepened their prospect pool recently. The veteran players they might acquire could help for the 2009 season.

Those players might be guys on one year deals, so the financial impact would be minimized. It's certainly not far fetched and it's certainly not my own idea. Williams himself mentioned the same thing in the press conference after one of the trades ... the Javier Vazquez trade I believe.

If the White Sox are within striking distance or competing for the division come June or July, do you really think they wouldn't try to improve the team? It's Ken Williams at the helm and this isn't 1997. If the team is winning, walk up attendance is likely to be better. It's all connected.

As I originally stated, you are assuming that the Sox are in still in the hunt in June or July. If not, no veterans will be obtained, dumping will occur and its back to the The Kids Can Play Part2.

I also think Lip meant, what can be done for the whole 2009 season, not if they are still in the hunt by July.

2906
01-10-2009, 01:18 PM
As I originally stated, you are assuming that the Sox are in still in the hunt in June or July. If not, no veterans will be obtained, dumping will occur and its back to the The Kids Can Play Part2.

I also think Lip meant, what can be done for the whole 2009 season, not if they are still in the hunt by July.

Again ... I'm not assuming anything. Where are you getting that?

I said if they are in the hunt, they have the flexibility in terms of tradeable assets to acquire veterans other teams want to dump. It's a very reasonable and entirely plausible scenario that many teams deal with every single year.

Liptak talked about 2009, and 2009 results aren't necessarily predicated upon what your lineup is on opening day. One thing they can do for the whole season is give young players an opportunity to show what they can do. They still have several veterans. Hopefully the team stays afloat. There are many here who think they'll tank just because name players aren't on the roster April 6th. Others like me are willing to see how these players perform and it seems Williams is in the same camp.

And taking this full circle, if they are in the hunt as the year progresses, they can assess their needs and address them accordingly, because they have the flexibility of assets to trade.

jabrch
01-10-2009, 01:26 PM
There are still lots of available players, lots of time, and a lot of teams not spending a lot of money.

There is still no team in our division that is a lock to be better than us.

We still just won the division.

I'll wait it out before drawing conclusions. Most people who draw conclusions in January about most of the teams in the game are wrong most of the time

whitesox901
01-10-2009, 02:15 PM
There are still lots of available players, lots of time, and a lot of teams not spending a lot of money.

There is still no team in our division that is a lock to be better than us.

We still just won the division.



Agree

Jurr
01-10-2009, 02:52 PM
There are still lots of available players, lots of time, and a lot of teams not spending a lot of money.

There is still no team in our division that is a lock to be better than us.

We still just won the division.

I'll wait it out before drawing conclusions. Most people who draw conclusions in January about most of the teams in the game are wrong most of the time
Exactly. I don't see how hard this concept is to grasp for some people. Just because the Sox didn't sign any "name" players, people assume that the team will be hogwash.

Give it time.

jabrch
01-10-2009, 02:59 PM
Exactly. I don't see how hard this concept is to grasp for some people. Just because the Sox didn't sign any "name" players, people assume that the team will be hogwash.

Give it time.


I still think it is a small # of vocal douchebags. I sure hope this isn't representative of the majority of Sox fans.

LoveYourSuit
01-10-2009, 03:01 PM
There are still lots of available players, lots of time, and a lot of teams not spending a lot of money.

There is still no team in our division that is a lock to be better than us.

We still just won the division.

I'll wait it out before drawing conclusions. Most people who draw conclusions in January about most of the teams in the game are wrong most of the time



I, myself, have put us to the standard of competing for an AL Pennant and going from there eache year. It's the standard I think we as fans should demand and even Kenny speaks that way (which is why I like the guy).

Does anyone in their mind right now see us competing with the AL East?

I know, "let's get in and go from there." But it doesn't look good right now if indeed we do get in. Those 3 teams in the East are stacked.

As for the Division:
The Indians have closed the gap a bit this offseason and IMO still have the best 1-2 SP punch in the division. I still think that we are better than them, but the gap is closing IMO. The Twins are always a wild card I can't explain.

DumpJerry
01-10-2009, 03:05 PM
I would bet that part of what is going on is teams are waiting as long as possible to see how their season ticket base turns out.


Champagne:

And that is an interesting question you pose. Brooks said ticket renewals are (direct quote) "holding steady"

There seems to be a disconnect between what he is saying (naturally if true) and what Kenny is saying about "bumping up against our limit."

I'm sure there's more to this than meets the eye.

Lip
Voodoo: I got my invoice for my final payment for my ST Friday. There was a flyer stuck in the envelope letting me know that everyone who pays in full by the due date later this month gets their name put into a drawing for some "White Sox experience" stuff. They alluded to autographed items. Last year it was am AJ Bobblehead if we paid on time, so they are working hard to get the bucks in.

Lip: There is no disconnect between what Kenny and Brooks are saying. I'm guessing that they are anticipating lower concession sales at the games as people cut back and brownbag more of their meals at the games. Concessions bring in more revenues than ST sales, so they are probably lowering their revenue projections on the concessions.

champagne030
01-10-2009, 03:40 PM
I'll wait it out before drawing conclusions. Most people who draw conclusions in January about most of the teams in the game are wrong most of the time

This sounds a lot like someone trying to be a closet GM. :scratch:

champagne030
01-10-2009, 03:43 PM
Concessions bring in more revenues than ST sales, so they are probably lowering their revenue projections on the concessions.

:bs:

No ****ing way.

Jurr
01-10-2009, 05:52 PM
Voodoo: I got my invoice for my final payment for my ST Friday. There was a flyer stuck in the envelope letting me know that everyone who pays in full by the due date later this month gets their name put into a drawing for some "White Sox experience" stuff. They alluded to autographed items. Last year it was am AJ Bobblehead if we paid on time, so they are working hard to get the bucks in.

Lip: There is no disconnect between what Kenny and Brooks are saying. I'm guessing that they are anticipating lower concession sales at the games as people cut back and brownbag more of their meals at the games. Concessions bring in more revenues than ST sales, so they are probably lowering their revenue projections on the concessions.
There is a little truth to this. One of my best friends is the purchasing manager at the stadium for Levy. He's mostly in charge of the suites, but it's all related. They missed their projected numbers last year, even with the playoff games. Thankfully, the other events at the stadium help out a little. This year's expected revenue is lowered, and I know this as fact.

Is it significant enough to warrant a huge drop in payroll? I don't know that for sure. Do the Sox have an infinite payroll? Nope. Could they afford to dump a ton of money on a veteran, taking the risk that the guy gets hurt and wastes his chunk of the payroll? Nope.

This free agent market is still COLOSSAL. If you watch MLB Network, they flash the available players all the time, and it's loaded with veterans. The Sox could easily cherry pick near the beginning of ST to add some players at a great price.

I still don't see what the big deal is. We didn't sign Sabathia. We didn't sign Teixiera. Did any of our other rivals really bulk up? Nah.

Remember, folks, once a team gets into the season, all bets are off. Your Andy Sonnanstines, Esteban Loaizas, Gavin Floyds, and Carlos Quentins of the world come out of nowhere to excel. It's WAY to early to write the Sox off.

areilly
01-10-2009, 05:59 PM
Lip: There is no disconnect between what Kenny and Brooks are saying. I'm guessing that they are anticipating lower concession sales at the games as people cut back and brownbag more of their meals at the games. Concessions bring in more revenues than ST sales, so they are probably lowering their revenue projections on the concessions.

:bs:

No ****ing way.

Champagne, how is that so ridiculous an idea? It's not impossible the average season ticket holder pays $36 per ticket, but drops an average of $50 every time they go to the park.

You're also overlooking the associated profit margins of a seat versus the profit margins of concessions and merchandise - the latter are almost obscene.

Daver
01-10-2009, 06:02 PM
:bs:

No ****ing way.

Champagne, how is that so ridiculous an idea? It's not impossible the average season ticket holder pays $36 per ticket, but drops an average of $50 every time they go to the park.

You're also overlooking the associated profit margins of a seat versus the profit margins of concessions and merchandise - the latter are almost obscene.

Because he says it is and he is an expert on all things sports related, just ask him.

DumpJerry
01-10-2009, 06:49 PM
:bs:

No ****ing way.
You obviously do not work in management in the entertainment industry. Do you want to know how much concessions line the owners' pockets? I was talking with a guy today who told me not too long ago, he and his brother in-law looked into opening a movie theater out east. They found out that to break even, they would have to sell seven, yes SEVEN, tickets to each showing. The reason for this is that there is a 3:1 profit margin in concessions to tickets. That $3.50 you spend on a pop at the concession stand at the movie theater cost the owner about $0.25.

Similar numbers exists in sports arenas. I'm sure those $6.50 beers the Sox were selling last year did not cost the team more than about $0.40 per bottle given the high volume of bottles they buy from Miller.

If the Sox anticipate people cutting back on concession purchases, then the team will be hurting. Jurr seems to have evidence that the cutting back already started last season.

Lip Man 1
01-10-2009, 07:32 PM
Dump:

That's an interesting take and it may have some merit. I honestly can't say one way or another.

--------------------------------

2906:

I think Buddy Bell is a fine baseball man too but rebuilding the Sox farm is going to take time and money and as Daver has stated the Sox really don't believe in putting money into their farm system / devolpment area.

I trust Daver completely in minor league info.

So if the Sox aren't spending money in the minor league system that isn't as big of a draw of team income as perhaps you think.

And the only "kid" that may (notice I said may) have an impact on the Sox in 2009, from their farm system (not acquired via trade) is Poreda and many think his role will be limited at best.

So to answer you, no I don't think the Sox minor league system will be providing help in 2009. So how do the areas of need get filled?

Lip

areilly
01-10-2009, 07:51 PM
Similar numbers exists in sports arenas. I'm sure those $6.50 beers the Sox were selling last year did not cost the team more than about $0.40 per bottle given the high volume of bottles they buy from Miller.

This reminds me of my bartender friend's maxim: what you paid for a glass of wine, the bar you that served it to you paid for a bottle; what you paid for two bottles of beer, they paid for the case; what you paid for two mixed drinks, the bar paid for the fifth they poured from.

Now multiply that by 30,000 people a night. Yikes.

champagne030
01-10-2009, 07:53 PM
Because he says it is and he is an expert on all things sports related, just ask him.

My ass is in the ass chewing HOF.

You obviously do not work in management in the entertainment industry. Do you want to know how much concessions line the owners' pockets? I was talking with a guy today who told me not too long ago, he and his brother in-law looked into opening a movie theater out east. They found out that to break even, they would have to sell seven, yes SEVEN, tickets to each showing. The reason for this is that there is a 3:1 profit margin in concessions to tickets. That $3.50 you spend on a pop at the concession stand at the movie theater cost the owner about $0.25.

Similar numbers exists in sports arenas. I'm sure those $6.50 beers the Sox were selling last year did not cost the team more than about $0.40 per bottle given the high volume of bottles they buy from Miller.

If the Sox anticipate people cutting back on concession purchases, then the team will be hurting. Jurr seems to have evidence that the cutting back already started last season.

I agree that profit margins are huge with concessions. I called 'bull****' that concession revenues are greater than ticket sales. And I stand by that statement. Go look at the Brewers or Indians 10K, the only public documents of a MLB team.

Madscout
01-10-2009, 09:30 PM
Lip: There is no disconnect between what Kenny and Brooks are saying. I'm guessing that they are anticipating lower concession sales at the games as people cut back and brownbag more of their meals at the games. Concessions bring in more revenues than ST sales, so they are probably lowering their revenue projections on the concessions.
Consessions are usually shared revenue, meaning that there is an outside catering company doing the sales and cooking, and the Sox take a cut. So you price is cost of food+ profit for the catering + Sox cut on top. I know it is Armark for the Pirates, but I don't know it is for the Sox.

DumpJerry
01-10-2009, 09:35 PM
Consessions are usually shared revenue, meaning that there is an outside catering company doing the sales and cooking, and the Sox take a cut. So you price is cost of food+ profit for the catering + Sox cut on top. I know it is Armark for the Pirates, but I don't know it is for the Sox.
A huge part of the concession take for the Sox are the paraphernalia sales. The cash registers at the souvenir stands and Majestic Shop ring non-stop all game long.....

Frontman
01-10-2009, 09:41 PM
Champagne, how is that so ridiculous an idea? It's not impossible the average season ticket holder pays $36 per ticket, but drops an average of $50 every time they go to the park.

You're also overlooking the associated profit margins of a seat versus the profit margins of concessions and merchandise - the latter are almost obscene.

Plus there is the idea that the casual fan will chose to spend less/not spend at all on the Sox. Sure, us die-hards will make it to the park; but maybe not as much. I got to one game in 2008 (Opening Day) and just life in general kept me from buying any additional games; whereas in 2007 I went to more games.

I think its ignorant to not consider that if everywhere we're looking we're seeing budget crunches and cutbacks that *most* of the Major League Baseball organizations will also feel it.

Will the Yankees/Red Sox/Cubs sell out? Pretty sure they will.

Do I know for a fact how many people will be buying tickets for the Sox this season? No. But, considering SoxFest hasn't sold out of hotel packages as of this morning, and they're trying to get more people in on the weekend with daily tickets; it looks like they're already feeling it.

Some can call the Sox cheap if they want. I see them doing what the rest of us are doing:

Being smart with their money.

Daver
01-10-2009, 11:41 PM
My ass is in the ass chewing HOF.



I agree that profit margins are huge with concessions. I called 'bull****' that concession revenues are greater than ticket sales. And I stand by that statement. Go look at the Brewers or Indians 10K, the only public documents of a MLB team.

You crack me up, seriously.


MLB will spend millions to protect their accounting and how it is arrived at, and you think that the limited public documents of two teams constitute proof?

Jeffery Loria would get a chuckle out of this.

rdivaldi
01-11-2009, 12:41 AM
Don't you guys think that the Sox are going to see a significant drop in ad revenue?

4 points
01-11-2009, 01:07 AM
A huge part of the concession take for the Sox are the paraphernalia sales. The cash registers at the souvenir stands and Majestic Shop ring non-stop all game long.....

WOW, you really get your bong for a buck, at the Majestic shop,hey.

CWSpalehoseCWS
01-11-2009, 02:40 AM
Don't you guys think that the Sox are going to see a significant drop in ad revenue?

Same could go for every other team.

It's Dankerific
01-11-2009, 03:38 AM
A huge part of the concession take for the Sox are the paraphernalia sales. The cash registers at the souvenir stands and Majestic Shop ring non-stop all game long.....

Someone else said that those sales were shared revenue. who knows for sure? because that effects whether signing a big name and selling t-shirts/jerseys with their name can effect revenue or not.

Whitesoxfan23
01-11-2009, 06:03 AM
I still think it is a small # of vocal douchebags. I sure hope this isn't representative of the majority of Sox fans.

I don't appreciate being called a douchebag, just because I am concerned about the team. If you wanna see a douchebag, why don't you take a good look in the mirror....

Mod edit: The post you quote was not even in response to a post of yours. Take seven days to think about your unwarranted personal attack.

Frontman
01-11-2009, 07:52 AM
Same could go for every other team.

Save the Cubs/Yanks/Sawks. They might see a slight drop as companies can't afford it; but I'm sure there are other companies who would take that ad space in a second.

dickallen15
01-11-2009, 08:56 AM
Plus there is the idea that the casual fan will chose to spend less/not spend at all on the Sox. Sure, us die-hards will make it to the park; but maybe not as much. I got to one game in 2008 (Opening Day) and just life in general kept me from buying any additional games; whereas in 2007 I went to more games.

I think its ignorant to not consider that if everywhere we're looking we're seeing budget crunches and cutbacks that *most* of the Major League Baseball organizations will also feel it.

Will the Yankees/Red Sox/Cubs sell out? Pretty sure they will.

Do I know for a fact how many people will be buying tickets for the Sox this season? No. But, considering SoxFest hasn't sold out of hotel packages as of this morning, and they're trying to get more people in on the weekend with daily tickets; it looks like they're already feeling it.

Some can call the Sox cheap if they want. I see them doing what the rest of us are doing:

Being smart with their money.

Do you know who wasn't smart with their money? The White Sox most important customers, their season ticketholders who let the White Sox hold their non refundable playoff money ransom as they raised ticket prices in this economy, basically forcing them to pay for at least part of what they are projecting to be a lack of individual sales in 2009. Taking advantage of your most loyal customers like that eventually bites you in the ass. Also, any Soxfest revenue goes towards charity IIRC, so the team won't feel it. Organizations that really need the money will.

TornLabrum
01-11-2009, 09:39 AM
I still think it is a small # of vocal douchebags. I sure hope this isn't representative of the majority of Sox fans.

It's not even the majority view of people who use these message boards.

The Wunsch
01-11-2009, 10:12 AM
it think his patience will be rewarded. there is a huge supply of free agents and not enough teams looking to spend money. the closer we get to spring training, more players will be signing for less. then kw can spend some of that extra cash....hopefully on a quality sp

Jurr
01-11-2009, 10:14 AM
Consessions are usually shared revenue, meaning that there is an outside catering company doing the sales and cooking, and the Sox take a cut. So you price is cost of food+ profit for the catering + Sox cut on top. I know it is Armark for the Pirates, but I don't know it is for the Sox.
Actually, PNC is a Levy Restaurants property.

voodoochile
01-11-2009, 10:24 AM
Do you know who wasn't smart with their money? The White Sox most important customers, their season ticketholders who let the White Sox hold their non refundable playoff money ransom as they raised ticket prices in this economy, basically forcing them to pay for at least part of what they are projecting to be a lack of individual sales in 2009. Taking advantage of your most loyal customers like that eventually bites you in the ass. Also, any Soxfest revenue goes towards charity IIRC, so the team won't feel it. Organizations that really need the money will.

Some questions for you, "most loyal customer" that you are:

In terms of the refund/carryover for the playoff money:

Wasn't that an option? I mean you could get a refund if you wanted couldn't you?

What do other teams do?

If they do the same thing aren't you calling the Sox out for a common business practice?

As to the ticket price increase:

Did you really think prices weren't going up after the Sox won the division?

If yes, isn't that a little naive?

Can you name a time or a team who won the division/made the playoffs who didn't then raise prices?

If so, can you name a lot of teams of just a few?

Just curious if "most loyal customers" are giving the team a fair shake in return or just ripping on them for the sake of ripping on them. I think I know the answer, but please, by all means, fill me in where I am wrong...

2906
01-11-2009, 10:35 AM
2906:

I think Buddy Bell is a fine baseball man too but rebuilding the Sox farm is going to take time and money and as Daver has stated the Sox really don't believe in putting money into their farm system / devolpment area.

I trust Daver completely in minor league info.

So if the Sox aren't spending money in the minor league system that isn't as big of a draw of team income as perhaps you think.

And the only "kid" that may (notice I said may) have an impact on the Sox in 2009, from their farm system (not acquired via trade) is Poreda and many think his role will be limited at best.

So to answer you, no I don't think the Sox minor league system will be providing help in 2009. So how do the areas of need get filled?

Lip

Mark, to be frank and with all due respect to anyone who posts here, no one and I do mean no one knows what's spent on the minor league system. To say they aren't spending money in the minor league system is a flawed conclusion though.

As I stated, a whole bunch of new instructional people, scouts, and support personnel were hired since Bell took over. It doesn't necessarily take years and years to see results, that's just not true. Minor league systems can change in a hurry if things are done right.

We agree Bell is a qualified guy and he has put his people in place, so results should start happening this year and while there's no guarantee of anything, some players might be able to help the White Sox in 2009. You seem to think it has to be a "name" player. Well, it doesn't. Young guys come in and surprise every single year for many, many teams.

You said the only one you can see contributing (of young players) in 2009 is Poreda. Why is that? Because he was a first round draft pick and was hyped? Why are you outright dismissing several others? Here are some young players who could contribute in 2009:

- Lillibridge
- Jon Link
- Jeff Marquez
- Elder Torres
- Poreda as you mentioned
- Viciedo
- Adam Russell

Now, am I counting on all these guys to contribute? No I'm not. I'm also not dismissing the possibility they will contribute. There are others too, guys who may well get their first real chance to play regularly.

Further ... as has been hashed out on this message board too many times lately ... I notice with great interest there are literally over 100 free agents who have yet to sign. But we've been talking about the minor leagues so we'll leave that out of the equation.

You have followed baseball for what, 40 years? I don't know how anyone with as much experience as you have watching baseball could outright dismiss the possibility of more than one young player contributing to the 2009 White Sox.

Lip Man 1
01-11-2009, 12:33 PM
2906:

Lillibridge
Jon Link
Jeff Marquez
Elder Torres
Poreda as you mentioned
Viciedo
Adam Russell

Lillibridge and Marquez were acquired via trade from other organizations. You were talking about kids developed by the Sox themselves making a contribution this season. Since those two weren't developed by the Sox they don't count.

I don't know enough to comment one way or another on Link or Torres. Perhaps Daver can weigh in here.

Viciedo is 19 years old. How many 19 year olds do you know of who make the jump to a MLB team? Odds are very, very long with him.

Poreda may (although again I defer to Daver and his minor league expertise when he says he's a one pitch pitcher and is questionable) ditto for Russell.

Still on balance that's not a lot of self developed help is it?

Lip

russ99
01-11-2009, 12:47 PM
As for Viciedo, he's pretty much leapfrogged to the top 5 Sox prospect list due to his overall talent level. But being 19 and from Cuba, I wouldn't be surprised if he needs a full year in AAA to get acclimated. There's also the weight concerns.

But he may pull an Alexei Ramirez (who was a mature 26 last year) and stick with the team this spring, you never know. IMO when we get to the end of Spring Training, I think that Betemit might keep Viciedo off the roster, due to his versatility.

soxfanreggie
01-11-2009, 01:54 PM
Like everyone else, I'll throw in my $0.02.

1.) I agree with TomBradley that I don't think KW is done. However, fans have a right to question the GM. They could be right in the fact that we are hurting ourselves by not signing guys now, or they could be completely wrong. I see us signing a few veteran guys to one or two year deals; however, who those guys are, I have no idea. My own personal opinion, none of the deals I expect will be "big" when announced.

2.) We have a lot of young guys that have some talent. Whether or not they develop in reliable ML starters is anyone's guess. We could have a load of future all-stars or a load of nothing.

3.) I agree with Dump about the concessions piece. Movie tickets would be very, very expensive if they sold the concessions at little markup.

It's Dankerific
01-11-2009, 02:40 PM
I'm also a season ticket holder, I'll answer some

Some questions for you, "most loyal customer" that you are:

In terms of the refund/carryover for the playoff money:

Wasn't that an option? I mean you could get a refund if you wanted couldn't you?

Choosing a refund meant also giving up our seats. Nice punishment from the Sox if you wanted to pay for your seats less than 9 months early.



What do other teams do?


You should ask their season ticket holders


If they do the same thing aren't you calling the Sox out for a common business practice?

Is that the standard now? Can't complain if its a common business practice? I think you'd see a TON of recent examples in the news on how BADLY FLAWED that idea is.

As to the ticket price increase:

Did you really think prices weren't going up after the Sox won the division?

I know the Sox so, yes, I knew the prices were going up.


If yes, isn't that a little naive?

Not really. Other teams seem to be able to understand.

Can you name a time or a team who won the division/made the playoffs who didn't then raise prices?

Sure. The Boston Red Sox
The Tampa Bay Rays INCREASED their season ticket holder discount
The Los Angeles Dodgers allowed their season ticket holders to lock in a no price increase for renewing in August, the same time period the Sox were locking up people by playoff deposits.
The Brewers are freezing some of their ticket prices, raising others.

So, you have 50% of the playoff teams in the AL holding prices. You have 50% of all the playoff teams at least partially holding prices.
Even the Cubs are freezing some individual tickets.

So our White Sox are in the MINORITY of playoff teams raising ALL ticket prices.



If so, can you name a lot of teams of just a few?


that would be "a lot"


Just curious if "most loyal customers" are giving the team a fair shake in return or just ripping on them for the sake of ripping on them. I think I know the answer, but please, by all means, fill me in where I am wrong...

I think the most loyal customers have the most reason to rip the team, for whatever reason they want. They are putting their cash up, but I guess no matter if you spend thousands of dollars on the team, other "better fans" are allowed to call you names or say you suck. THAT kind of "behavior" is DEPLORABLE.

Frontman
01-11-2009, 03:10 PM
Do you know who wasn't smart with their money? The White Sox most important customers, their season ticketholders who let the White Sox hold their non refundable playoff money ransom as they raised ticket prices in this economy, basically forcing them to pay for at least part of what they are projecting to be a lack of individual sales in 2009. Taking advantage of your most loyal customers like that eventually bites you in the ass. Also, any Soxfest revenue goes towards charity IIRC, so the team won't feel it. Organizations that really need the money will.

Which is standard practice in many businesses. If you can't get the borderline customer to come back; you pass the cost on to those who do come through the door. Don't make it seem like the Sox are "evil" or "stupid" for doing it; because 99.9% of business does that. If you haven't noticed the "upsell" techniques, everywhere from gas stations to toy stores; you should pay more attention.

Think its coincidence that Jewel/Osco now shills "bargain" items at the registers? Those are low cost/high profit items they can move to make more money.

The season ticket base can jump up and down all they want that it isn't fair. Guess what. Its the die-hard fan who CAN'T afford the season ticket package in the first place that gets squeezed even more; to the point they can't go to games at all. Season tix holders will still have their seats.

Frontman
01-11-2009, 03:13 PM
And before anyone drops the "way to stick it to the loyal Sox fan" line, let me ask you; how many of our loyal behinds were in the seats in Mid-May of 2008? The Sox played in front of some sparce crowds this past season; so here's a bit of advice:

STOP COMPARING THE WHITE SOX TO THE RED SOX. Fenway fills up, pretty much every night. USCF cannot even come close to that claim. So, of course the Red Sox can hold/lower some prices; THEY HAVE THE SEATS FILLED. The White Sox don't.

voodoochile
01-11-2009, 03:22 PM
I'm also a season ticket holder, I'll answer some


Choosing a refund meant also giving up our seats. Nice punishment from the Sox if you wanted to pay for your seats less than 9 months early.


You should ask their season ticket holders


Is that the standard now? Can't complain if its a common business practice? I think you'd see a TON of recent examples in the news on how BADLY FLAWED that idea is.

I know the Sox so, yes, I knew the prices were going up.


Not really. Other teams seem to be able to understand.


Sure. The Boston Red Sox
The Tampa Bay Rays INCREASED their season ticket holder discount
The Los Angeles Dodgers allowed their season ticket holders to lock in a no price increase for renewing in August, the same time period the Sox were locking up people by playoff deposits.
The Brewers are freezing some of their ticket prices, raising others.

So, you have 50% of the playoff teams in the AL holding prices. You have 50% of all the playoff teams at least partially holding prices.
Even the Cubs are freezing some individual tickets.

So our White Sox are in the MINORITY of playoff teams raising ALL ticket prices.



that would be "a lot"



I think the most loyal customers have the most reason to rip the team, for whatever reason they want. They are putting their cash up, but I guess no matter if you spend thousands of dollars on the team, other "better fans" are allowed to call you names or say you suck. THAT kind of "behavior" is DEPLORABLE.

Oh well...

Here's a link to an article about ticket prices this coming season compared to last year. It's from 12/3/2008 so it's still relatively valid:

http://www.usatoday.com/sports/baseball/2008-12-03-team-by-team-ticket-prices_N.htm

According to that article the only 2008 playoff teams that won't be increasing ticket prices this year are the Red Sox and Dodgers with the flubbies as yet unannounced. In addition, this will be the first year in the last 15 that the Red Sox have not increased prices and they are the most expensive ticket in baseball by a wide margin. The second most expensive is the flubbies (still unannounced).

So, did you just make that crap up hoping no one would actually check it or are your sources just hopelessly out of date?

It's Dankerific
01-11-2009, 03:50 PM
Oh well...

Here's a link to an article about ticket prices this coming season compared to last year. It's from 12/3/2008 so it's still relatively valid:

http://www.usatoday.com/sports/baseball/2008-12-03-team-by-team-ticket-prices_N.htm

According to that article the only 2008 playoff teams that won't be increasing ticket prices this year are the Red Sox and Dodgers with the flubbies as yet unannounced. In addition, this will be the first year in the last 15 that the Red Sox have not increased prices and they are the most expensive ticket in baseball by a wide margin. The second most expensive is the flubbies (still unannounced).

So, did you just make that crap up hoping no one would actually check it or are your sources just hopelessly out of date?

Even if your data WAS correct, which its NOT, you still are showing 25% of playoff teams didn't raise their prices.

I should have known that facts would be challenged by a single usa today article. If you are going to ask for information and then immediately refute it, how about actually doing the research. How about actually checking local articles in the cities that matter.

Tampa Bay (http://www.tampabay.com/sports/baseball/rays/article907349.ece)
Milwaukee (http://www.jsonline.com/sports/brewers/33615434.html)
Chicago Cubs (http://blogs.chicagosports.chicagotribune.com/sports_hardball/2008/12/cubs-announce-t.html)

Teams like Philadelphia (http://www.pressofatlanticcity.com/226/story/316391.html) didn't raise prices in 2008, and even though they did for 2009, they kept it a lot lower than a World Champion team has to, out of deference for their fans. Especially considering some seats hadn't had their prices raised since they opened up their ballpark.

LoveYourSuit
01-11-2009, 03:53 PM
Of all 8 play off teams in 2008, I think the Sox and Rays were the only 2 teams who had no territory to raise ticket prices because of already weak fan bases in the 2008 season. Everyone else had high demand for tickets all season as evidence by attendance figures for the season.

Madscout
01-11-2009, 04:01 PM
Actually, PNC is a Levy Restaurants property.
Sure about that? Pretty sure I saw Armark signs last time I went there. Since I worked for Armark, and just quit my job from them at that time, I remember quite well.

Edit: http://www.aramark.com/BallparkLandingTemplate.aspx?PostingID=712&ChannelID=336

LoveYourSuit
01-11-2009, 04:09 PM
Teams like Philadelphia (http://www.pressofatlanticcity.com/226/story/316391.html) didn't raise prices in 2008, and even though they did for 2009, they kept it a lot lower than a World Champion team has to, out of deference for their fans. Especially considering some seats hadn't had their prices raised since they opened up their ballpark.

The demand for Phillies tickets for 2009 was guranteed to be extremely high and therefore merits a ticket price increase even on a bad economy. They are the World Champs. Same thing like in 2006, we had no room to bitch.

But to win a very weak division by going into the 163rd game and playing like crap the entire month of September, that to me creates ZERO demand for more ticket sales in 2009 and does not justify a "demand" increase.

It's scarry to me to think what could have been had the Sox not got in at the end and fell a game short. If they are claiming "harsh economic times," right now even by getting in, I would hate to hear the cry had we not got in. Maybe a true "Fire Sale" would have occured.

It's Dankerific
01-11-2009, 04:18 PM
The demand for Phillies tickets for 2009 was guranteed to be extremely high and therefore merits a ticket price increase even on a bad economy. They are the World Champs. Same thing like in 2006, we had no room to bitch.

But to win a very weak division by going into the 163rd game and playing like crap the entire month of September, that to me creates ZERO demand for more ticket sales in 2009 and does not justify a "demand" increase.

It's scarry to me to think what could have been had the Sox not got in at the end and fell a game short. If they are claiming "harsh economic times," right now even by getting in, I would hate to hear the cry had we not got in. Maybe a true "Fire Sale" would have occured.

You have one team, the Phillies, taking advantage of elastic demand. They won the World Series, already had good demand for their seats, and now are generating some revenue in an environment that will show them even higher demand to support it.

You have another team, the White Sox, taking advantage of inelastic demand, demand that can't be reduced because of their playoff deposit policies. So, they don't have to concern themselves with the market where demand for their product (whether economy reasons or product on the field reasons) is projected to be lower than the year before (and wasn't all that high to begin with).

Yet, people are arguing that this is good (and common) business practice BEYOND REPROACH.
?????????

voodoochile
01-11-2009, 04:20 PM
Even if your data WAS correct, which its NOT, you still are showing 25% of playoff teams didn't raise their prices.

I should have known that facts would be challenged by a single usa today article. If you are going to ask for information and then immediately refute it, how about actually doing the research. How about actually checking local articles in the cities that matter.

Tampa Bay (http://www.tampabay.com/sports/baseball/rays/article907349.ece)
Milwaukee (http://www.jsonline.com/sports/brewers/33615434.html)
Chicago Cubs (http://blogs.chicagosports.chicagotribune.com/sports_hardball/2008/12/cubs-announce-t.html)

Teams like Philadelphia (http://www.pressofatlanticcity.com/226/story/316391.html) didn't raise prices in 2008, and even though they did for 2009, they kept it a lot lower than a World Champion team has to, out of deference for their fans. Especially considering some seats hadn't had their prices raised since they opened up their ballpark.

I'm confused, did you actually read all of those articles you posted?

The Milwaukee article flat states that prices are going up as does the Flubbie article (except for 33% of the park - that means 67% is going up.) Milwaukee, season ticket holders in box seats will see a 1-2 dollar increase, just like the USA article says. The flubbie article is the only article that came out after the USA article and though the discount at Tampa is going up, so are prices for the vast majority of fans who are not season ticket holders, but with a season ticket base of 8K (the worst in the majors) it's not surprising they are treating their one year of success as something to be treasured and guarded, not utilized for max effect immediately.

But beyond all that, what about years in the past? You offer one years worth of data which more supports my point than yours and act as if you've proven something. Is this a common thing or a product of the economy? I'm working up this data on historical price increases by playoff teams. I'll post that in a few minutes...

It's Dankerific
01-11-2009, 04:27 PM
I'm confused, did you actually read all of those articles you posted?

The Milwaukee article flat states that prices are going up as does the Flubbie article (except for 33% of the park - that means 67% is going up.) Milwaukee, season ticket holders in box seats will see a 1-2 dollar increase, just like the USA article says. The flubbie article is the only article that came out after the USA article and though the discount at Tampa is going up, so are prices for the vast majority of fans who are not season ticket holders, but with a season ticket base of 8K (the worst in the majors) it's not surprising they are treating their one year of success as something to be treasured and guarded, not utilized for max effect immediately.

But beyond all that, what about years in the past? You offer one years worth of data which more supports my point than yours and act as if you've proven something. Is this a common thing or a product of the economy? I'm working up this data on historical price increases by playoff teams. I'll post that in a few minutes...

Did you read my original post, did you read your original post??

We're talking about season ticket holders.

I was very specific in each of my statements. Some playoff teams are holding the line on all ticket prices, some playoff teams are holding the line on season ticket prices, some playoff teams are holding the line on SOME ticket prices.

THE CHICAGO WHITE SOX ARE RAISING ALL THE TICKET PRICES.

That business practice is being implemented by the MINORITY of the playoff teams.

I look forward to you continuing to try to obfuscate the truth and the talking points of our discussion.

voodoochile
01-11-2009, 05:23 PM
Okay, I downloaded a spreadsheet from this site: http://www.roadsidephotos.com/baseball/data.htm

It has the average ticket prices by team every year from 1991-2002.

Some points about the data:
They say 2004 but the data columns aren't there.

There's also an extra column for 2001 that deletes premium tickets from the figures, but I just went with average - though this would explain the drop in prices in 2002 which saw 5 of the decreases from the relative data points - roughly 38% of all the down or neutral data points from the data.

I also misplaced one data point, I can't find it. I've been through the data several times - I credited it to the down/neutral column.

All I did was highlight the playoff teams each year and then noted whether the average ticket price went up, down or remained neutral the following year. By my calculations of the 68 playoff teams between 1991 and 2001 55 (81%) increased ticket prices the following year. This includes the outlier data from 2002 which was calculated differently than the rest of the sheet and the missing data point being given to that column.

My columns show 55/12 I added the missing point in manually.

I had to delete a ton of information and convert to word to get this under the file limit. If you want to see where the original data comes from click that link at the top of this post.

I got the playoff data here: http://www.baseball-almanac.com/ws/postseason.shtml

voodoochile
01-11-2009, 05:27 PM
Did you read my original post, did you read your original post??

We're talking about season ticket holders.

I was very specific in each of my statements. Some playoff teams are holding the line on all ticket prices, some playoff teams are holding the line on season ticket prices, some playoff teams are holding the line on SOME ticket prices.

THE CHICAGO WHITE SOX ARE RAISING ALL THE TICKET PRICES.

That business practice is being implemented by the MINORITY of the playoff teams.

I look forward to you continuing to try to obfuscate the truth and the talking points of our discussion.

Yep, Milwaukee and flubbie ticket holders are seeing a price increase. Again, of the 8 teams who made the playoffs this year, 6 of them will increase prices to the ST base. That's about average as my previous post shows 81% of all teams have increased prices over a decade of data starting in 1991, so again, what's the big deal here? You just ranting to rant? The Sox just like the vast majority of MLB teams are implementing a small price increase the year after making the playoffs.

It's Dankerific
01-11-2009, 05:31 PM
How is that even relevant in this economic climate?

That during good, great and decent times 80% of playoff teams raised prices. Wow.

What we know is that in 2009, over half of the playoff teams from the previous team at a minimum, held prices on some of their tickets.

That the White Sox, in the lower half of demand of the playoff teams decided to raise ALL their ticket prices. in 2009. During these economic times.

Where is the debate? That White Sox fans can't complain that their team is acting differently than most of the other playoff teams THIS year.

bechtel129
01-11-2009, 05:40 PM
How do you know whether or not he attempted to sign the players you are referencing??:?:

Just because they signed with other teams doesn't mean he didn't have any interest or make any offers. But I guess you were either privy to everything that went on behind closed doors or think that if it isn't speculated about in the media,it didn't happen.:rolleyes:

word:cool:

It's Dankerific
01-11-2009, 05:41 PM
Yep, Milwaukee and flubbie ticket holders are seeing a price increase. Again, of the 8 teams who made the playoffs this year, 6 of them will increase prices to the ST base. That's about average as my previous post shows 81% of all teams have increased prices over a decade of data starting in 1991, so again, what's the big deal here? You just ranting to rant? The Sox just like the vast majority of MLB teams are implementing a small price increase the year after making the playoffs.

Tampa Bay is increasing the the season ticket holder discount, not increasing their cost. you know and already wrote that.

3 teams are keeping their season ticket plans either at the same price or lower. 3/8. Other teams are keeping some tickets the same price, not in season ticket holder plans.

You are acting as if raising ALL prices in a stadium are equal to raising some prices in a stadium, WHICH IT IS NOT.

Who cares what happened during the 1990s, an relative time of economic boom, especially since your date ends in the early 2000s.

This is about this year and about the White Sox raising all their prices in this economic climate. All White Sox fans have a right to bitch (or rant) about that, your beliefs not withstanding.

dickallen15
01-11-2009, 05:49 PM
Oh well...

Here's a link to an article about ticket prices this coming season compared to last year. It's from 12/3/2008 so it's still relatively valid:

http://www.usatoday.com/sports/baseball/2008-12-03-team-by-team-ticket-prices_N.htm

According to that article the only 2008 playoff teams that won't be increasing ticket prices this year are the Red Sox and Dodgers with the flubbies as yet unannounced. In addition, this will be the first year in the last 15 that the Red Sox have not increased prices and they are the most expensive ticket in baseball by a wide margin. The second most expensive is the flubbies (still unannounced).

So, did you just make that crap up hoping no one would actually check it or are your sources just hopelessly out of date?

It doesn't appear those teams are trimming payroll by the same margin as the White Sox, and at least in the Cubs case, have a lot more in long term payroll than the White Sox.

How do you think it would have gone over if the Sox, before getting playoff money said, "the economy is very bad. We are going to raise our ticket prices because we don't feel the walk up will be very good next year. We also will need to lop about $25 million off the payroll?

dickallen15
01-11-2009, 05:53 PM
And before anyone drops the "way to stick it to the loyal Sox fan" line, let me ask you; how many of our loyal behinds were in the seats in Mid-May of 2008? The Sox played in front of some sparce crowds this past season; so here's a bit of advice:

STOP COMPARING THE WHITE SOX TO THE RED SOX. Fenway fills up, pretty much every night. USCF cannot even come close to that claim. So, of course the Red Sox can hold/lower some prices; THEY HAVE THE SEATS FILLED. The White Sox don't.

The season ticketholders who get a bigger bill to watch Marquez, Fields and Getz play this year were there or at least paid to be there. Are you aware the Red Sox didn't sell out a playoff game in 2008? They also have a payroll quite a bit larger than the White Sox and don't appear to be drastically cutting it like the White Sox.

DumpJerry
01-11-2009, 06:22 PM
Voodoo and Dankerific:

Neither one of you live in Chicago, so you're probably not aware that the City has raised the tax on tickets.

voodoochile
01-11-2009, 06:52 PM
It doesn't appear those teams are trimming payroll by the same margin as the White Sox, and at least in the Cubs case, have a lot more in long term payroll than the White Sox.

How do you think it would have gone over if the Sox, before getting playoff money said, "the economy is very bad. We are going to raise our ticket prices because we don't feel the walk up will be very good next year. We also will need to lop about $25 million off the payroll?

Where are their payrolls in relation to the Sox and where will they be come opening day. The Sox lopping 25M still puts them in the area of $90M spent. That's after losing 500K tickets sold from 2006 to 2008. That's also before you calculate in increases to contracts already held and Viciedo.

The Sox raised prices $1-2/seat also and you folks are acting like it's the end of the world. Now all of a sudden ID want's to talk about it in terms of the times we are living in. You most loyal fans in baseball sound like a bunch of ****ing whiners. Do us all a favor, if this is what it means to be a loyal season ticket holding fan, go root for some other team. Go spam the Red Sox board with your tales of woe over the $2/seat increase. Fenway is laughing at you.

Be a season ticket holder or don't, it's your choice, but please stop hammering the club for what is a common business practice.

2906
01-11-2009, 07:33 PM
2906:

Lillibridge
Jon Link
Jeff Marquez
Elder Torres
Poreda as you mentioned
Viciedo
Adam Russell

Lillibridge and Marquez were acquired via trade from other organizations. You were talking about kids developed by the Sox themselves making a contribution this season. Since those two weren't developed by the Sox they don't count.

I don't know enough to comment one way or another on Link or Torres. Perhaps Daver can weigh in here.

Viciedo is 19 years old. How many 19 year olds do you know of who make the jump to a MLB team? Odds are very, very long with him.

Poreda may (although again I defer to Daver and his minor league expertise when he says he's a one pitch pitcher and is questionable) ditto for Russell.

Still on balance that's not a lot of self developed help is it?

Lip

Mark, what's the difference if a prospect is traded for or drafted by the organization? They are still White Sox prospects, so stop nitpicking. For the record, and if you'll reread the posts, we were talking about young players who could help the White Sox team in 2009.

Don't rely on Daver for minor league knowledge. Do your own research. Seeing as you don't consult with him when you post your definitive statements, don't couch your statements saying maybe he can weigh in.

I follow the minor leagues closely. I've also attended spring training every year for the last 8 years and I'll be there for two weeks this year. When I'm there, I do a lot more listening and asking questions than talking. So, you may have me on the nuances of the last week of the 1967 season but I can safely say I have a better handle on the young players and what's in the system and what's going on in the system. Stick your nose in and learn about it. Get over 1967 and get a handle on 2009. Otherwise be prepared to be challenged when you say no young player other than Poreda has a chance to contribute. As I said, you've been watching the team for over 40 years and you ought to know better. That is, assuming you're paying attention to what's happening now instead of 40 years ago.

jabrch
01-11-2009, 08:49 PM
Sure about that? Pretty sure I saw Armark signs last time I went there. Since I worked for Armark, and just quit my job from them at that time, I remember quite well.

Edit: http://www.aramark.com/BallparkLandingTemplate.aspx?PostingID=712&ChannelID=336


I think you are both right. Aramark has general concessions and Levy has premiums.

Madscout
01-11-2009, 08:56 PM
I think you are both right. Aramark has general concessions and Levy has premiums. So the ground level restaurant by the "Roberto Clemete Bridge" is Levy, but if you buy a hot dog, you support the awful company known as Aramark.

jabrch
01-11-2009, 08:58 PM
So the ground level restaurant by the "Roberto Clemete Bridge" is Levy, but if you buy a hot dog, you support the awful company known as Aramark.

I imagine so. Many stadiums have that arrangement. Aramark caters to a lower end market - as you well know. Levy is a bit more pricey, but does a really nice job handling premium foods if they are given appropriate space to work. (They have Wrigley - and it has improved under them - but it is nowhere close to what they do at USCF. The conditions they have to work in at the Urinal are not conducive to making good food.

Lip Man 1
01-11-2009, 09:00 PM
2906:

Has Phil Rogers asked for your advice when it comes to the Sox minor league system? Do you have tapes shipped in from Birmingham and Charlotte?

Daver does, and has been asked, and he is my source for anything to do with the minor leagues. When he talks about it, I listen.

I'm not splitting hairs, you've postulated about the Sox minor league system "suddenly" (for want of a better word) starting to produce talent this season.

I say it's not going to happen and the players acquired from other organizations have nothing to do with your statement and here is why.

If the guys acquired from the Braves and Yankees farm systems produce this year it will have nothing to do with anything the Sox did, they won't have been drafted by the Sox nor learned anything in a Sox minor league system....so again they don't figure into your equation.

And as others have stated, the folks the Sox got this offseason, regardless of where they came from, were not and are not, highly regarded prospects by people who make their living following the minor leagues. (do you?)We're not talking Danks and or Floyd here.

Just my opinion, I expect little to nothing from the entire bunch of them in 2009.

If something happens otherwise, great...the Sox will benefit. But I'm not holding my breath. The minor league system has been in disarray and a disaster for at least a decade, that's what I know and history proves that correct.

Kenny is rolling the dice big time (assuming nothing fundamentally changes between now and opening day). The credit or blame goes completely to him.

As far as sticking my nose in the "here and now", my opinion frankly is this. Concerning myself with what is going on in the minor leagues would be fine if I were a fan of the Padres, Royals or Brewers.

The Chicago White Sox are in a major market.

In my opinion, their fans shouldn't have to worry nor give a tinker's cuss (I always wanted to use that phrase!) about what John Doe from Podunk, Arkansas is doing is Double AA. The White Sox should be run like the other big market teams...i.e. they get the young stars off the garbage clubs when those teams can't or won't afford to pay to keep them, by trading all these "can't miss kids" whom never seem to cut it with the Sox (especially pitching.) That's the way the big boys play the game...the Sox should be right there with them.

My worry in the "here and now" is what is happening with the big club, the highest level. That's what I discuss when I deal with members of the organization.

I'm not condemning your interest in the minor leagues. Great...have at it... if it makes you happy...I'm all for it. I just don't care about it, I have bigger fish to fry.

Oh and for the record I became a Sox fan when I was five. I'm 53 now so this season will mark my 48th year. I think I know a little something too about the game and in the areas that I don't, I rely, I trust the folks who have a reputation for expertise in a particular field. When it comes to the minor leagues, Daver has earned that reputation from others that I have spoken with.

No personal offense to you but I know nothing about you, your background (other then what you say it is) and if you have the slightest idea of what you are talking about.

Lip

soxfanreggie
01-11-2009, 09:00 PM
Did someone just use the word "obfuscate"? :rolleyes:

Frontman
01-11-2009, 09:28 PM
The season ticketholders who get a bigger bill to watch Marquez, Fields and Getz play this year were there or at least paid to be there. Are you aware the Red Sox didn't sell out a playoff game in 2008? They also have a payroll quite a bit larger than the White Sox and don't appear to be drastically cutting it like the White Sox.

Yes, season ticket holders paid money for their tickets. But considering that some of the season ticket holders are in the same seats every night; yet times I watched games familiar faces were NOT in their seats, sometimes with those seats empty up until June?

Meant that they were not paying for food/drink/etc; which meant less money coming in for the Sox.

It's Dankerific
01-11-2009, 09:39 PM
Voodoo and Dankerific:

Neither one of you live in Chicago, so you're probably not aware that the City has raised the tax on tickets.

Since I actually pay a bill and can read, I know the tax has been raised.


Where are their payrolls in relation to the Sox and where will they be come opening day. The Sox lopping 25M still puts them in the area of $90M spent. That's after losing 500K tickets sold from 2006 to 2008. That's also before you calculate in increases to contracts already held and Viciedo.

The Sox raised prices $1-2/seat also and you folks are acting like it's the end of the world. Now all of a sudden ID want's to talk about it in terms of the times we are living in. You most loyal fans in baseball sound like a bunch of ****ing whiners. Do us all a favor, if this is what it means to be a loyal season ticket holding fan, go root for some other team. Go spam the Red Sox board with your tales of woe over the $2/seat increase. Fenway is laughing at you.

Be a season ticket holder or don't, it's your choice, but please stop hammering the club for what is a common business practice.

Thats ****ing awesome. Something a minority of playoff clubs is doing is not common. NOT COMMON. I don't give a **** what happened in the 1990s, its as about applicable as the TV contracts before MLB extra innings and Mlb.tv

How about all the ****ing apologists who don't spend even 20% of what the season ticket holders spend on white sox baseball all shut the **** up and thank their bitching whining season ticket holders for there being any product on the field.

If an individual season ticket holder is happy how their money is being spent, glad they have that opinion, they are entitled. Any of the individual ticket holders who are spending their money on tickets in this economic climate should be allowed to bitch and moan about it too.

All the bystanders need to stop lecturing the people paying the bills, luckily you are not the running the Sox season ticket retention program.

voodoochile
01-11-2009, 10:22 PM
Since I actually pay a bill and can read, I know the tax has been raised.




Thats ****ing awesome. Something a minority of playoff clubs is doing is not common. NOT COMMON. I don't give a **** what happened in the 1990s, its as about applicable as the TV contracts before MLB extra innings and Mlb.tv

How about all the ****ing apologists who don't spend even 20% of what the season ticket holders spend on white sox baseball all shut the **** up and thank their bitching whining season ticket holders for there being any product on the field.

If an individual season ticket holder is happy how their money is being spent, glad they have that opinion, they are entitled. Any of the individual ticket holders who are spending their money on tickets in this economic climate should be allowed to bitch and moan about it too.

All the bystanders need to stop lecturing the people paying the bills, luckily you are not the running the Sox season ticket retention program.

Paying the bills? BWAHAHAHAHAHAHA!!! Your 2/4/8 seats don't mean squat. Please stop going to the games - you're an embarassment to Sox fans. If I have any choice at all in the matte, I'd rather they sell your seats to someone who won't rip the team at every opportunity.

Guess what, it's not about you, ID. It's not about Dick Allen. It's not about me. You could be rooting for the Marlins and their $21M payroll. You could be rooting for the flubbies and their massive payroll, second highest ticket prices in baseball and 100 years of no championships. You could be rooting for the Yankees and their massive bloated budget, who gives a damn about the payroll tax and life sucks because we haven't won a championship in 7 long years. You could be rooting for the Cardinals and their amazing tradition, consistent winning and stoic fan base. But no, you root for the Sox. You're not a board member. You're not a business partner. You're not a teammate. You're a fan. You are spending money on an entertainment product. You don't like the way they use your money, don't support that product anymore. I mean if you don't like Tom Cruise movies or think the price of movies is ridiculous, don't go. If you don't like the way the Bulls team is built, don't go. Now here's the kicker... If you don't like the way the Sox are built, or think it's becoming too expensive to go, then please don't go, but please whatever you do, stop whining...


I really don't care about anything else, but that. You're a whiner. You cry about this and you cry about that and you cry about the other. Don't cry, don't whine, don't vent at WSI, do something about it. It's your money. It's your life. It's your CHOICE. Don't act like you are doing anyone a favor by being a Sox fan and buying your tickets. No one gives a crap because (and again, this is a tough point to grasp) It's not about YOU...

It's Dankerific
01-11-2009, 10:51 PM
Paying the bills? BWAHAHAHAHAHAHA!!! Your 2/4/8 seats don't mean squat. Please stop going to the games - you're an embarassment to Sox fans. If I have any choice at all in the matte, I'd rather they sell your seats to someone who won't rip the team at every opportunity.

Guess what, it's not about you, ID. It's not about Dick Allen. It's not about me. You could be rooting for the Marlins and their $21M payroll. You could be rooting for the flubbies and their massive payroll, second highest ticket prices in baseball and 100 years of no championships. You could be rooting for the Yankees and their massive bloated budget, who gives a damn about the payroll tax and life sucks because we haven't won a championship in 7 long years. You could be rooting for the Cardinals and their amazing tradition, consistent winning and stoic fan base. But no, you root for the Sox. You're not a board member. You're not a business partner. You're not a teammate. You're a fan. You are spending money on an entertainment product. You don't like the way they use your money, don't support that product anymore. I mean if you don't like Tom Cruise movies or think the price of movies is ridiculous, don't go. If you don't like the way the Bulls team is built, don't go. Now here's the kicker... If you don't like the way the Sox are built, or think it's becoming too expensive to go, then please don't go, but please whatever you do, stop whining...


I really don't care about anything else, but that. You're a whiner. You cry about this and you cry about that and you cry about the other. Don't cry, don't whine, don't vent at WSI, do something about it. It's your money. It's your life. It's your CHOICE. Don't act like you are doing anyone a favor by being a Sox fan and buying your tickets. No one gives a crap because (and again, this is a tough point to grasp) It's not about YOU...

I forgot about the numerous people in line to snap up all the season tickets to finance the team YOU follow.

This isn't about ME whining, its about YOU having NO right to tell people WHAT they spend THEIR money on, and what THEIR thoughts on the way THEY feel they are being treated as a customer.

How are you're feelings and ideas anymore important than anyone else? You are one non-paying customer telling a bunch of paying customers you don't want to hear their bitching while bitching yourself about other people. Congrats.

But go on about how I'm a whiner. Its really amusing to watch you bitch and whine, not about the Sox, but about how another Sox Fan thinks/feels/writes.

The White Sox send me stuff all the time APPRECIATING my contribution to the team, "just a fan" or not. That's whats important to me, NOT what Voodoo thinks about my spending habits or use of entertainment time.

Madscout
01-11-2009, 10:54 PM
2906:...

In my opinion, their fans shouldn't have to worry nor give a tinker's cuss (I always wanted to use that phrase!) about what John Doe from Podunk, Arkansas is doing is Double AA. The White Sox should be run like the other big market teams...i.e. they get the young stars off the garbage clubs when those teams can't or won't afford to pay to keep them, by trading all these "can't miss kids" whom never seem to cut it with the Sox (especially pitching.) That's the way the big boys play the game...the Sox should be right there with them...
Lip
Do you believe that it is possible for the Sox to have both a top notch farm system and play the game like the "big boys"? I think we would be able to be a big boy better if we had a decent farm system. The Yankees can afford the players not only because they take guys from the smaller clubs, but they can also trade for them and use guys in their farm system, who are rated well. If Kenny feels that the long term success is only sustainable with a good farm system, why wouldn't he retool?

voodoochile
01-11-2009, 11:01 PM
I forgot about the numerous people in line to snap up all the season tickets to finance the team YOU follow.

This isn't about ME whining, its about YOU having NO right to tell people WHAT they spend THEIR money on, and what THEIR thoughts on the way THEY feel they are being treated as a customer.

How are you're feelings and ideas anymore important than anyone else? You are one non-paying customer telling a bunch of paying customers you don't want to hear their bitching while bitching yourself about other people. Congrats.

But go on about how I'm a whiner. Its really amusing to watch you bitch and whine, not about the Sox, but about how another Sox Fan thinks/feels/writes.

The White Sox send me stuff all the time APPRECIATING my contribution to the team, "just a fan" or not. That's whats important to me, NOT what Voodoo thinks about my spending habits or use of entertainment time.

Well of course they do. Guess what Bartenders buy me drinks occasionally too, doesn't mean they want to date me, just good business.

You're all over the board on this one and you keep moving the goalposts. I'll just walk away and watch you argue yourself back full circle to whatever your point was in the first place. I guess it's that or get down on my knees and spit shine your shoes and that ain't gonna happen anytime soon oh high and mighty season ticket holder who deserves all praise and the right to vent like a mad man anywhere and anytime they so choose.

You say blessed most loyal season ticket holder. I say whiner.

Potato potato tomato tomato... let's call the whole thing off...:rolleyes:

kittle42
01-11-2009, 11:01 PM
How about all the ****ing apologists who don't spend even 20% of what the season ticket holders spend on white sox baseball all shut the **** up and thank their bitching whining season ticket holders for there being any product on the field.

If an individual season ticket holder is happy how their money is being spent, glad they have that opinion, they are entitled. Any of the individual ticket holders who are spending their money on tickets in this economic climate should be allowed to bitch and moan about it too.

All the bystanders need to stop lecturing the people paying the bills, luckily you are not the running the Sox season ticket retention program.

Amen, brother! As a fellow season ticket holder, I love the vitriol.

kittle42
01-11-2009, 11:03 PM
I really don't care about anything else, but that. You're a whiner. You cry about this and you cry about that and you cry about the other. Don't cry, don't whine, don't vent at WSI, do something about it. It's your money. It's your life. It's your CHOICE. Don't act like you are doing anyone a favor by being a Sox fan and buying your tickets. No one gives a crap because (and again, this is a tough point to grasp) It's not about YOU...

Amen to this, too. Both sides have good points.

2906
01-12-2009, 02:41 AM
2906:

Has Phil Rogers asked for your advice when it comes to the Sox minor league system? Do you have tapes shipped in from Birmingham and Charlotte?

Daver does, and has been asked, and he is my source for anything to do with the minor leagues. When he talks about it, I listen.

I'm not splitting hairs, you've postulated about the Sox minor league system "suddenly" (for want of a better word) starting to produce talent this season.

I say it's not going to happen and the players acquired from other organizations have nothing to do with your statement and here is why.

If the guys acquired from the Braves and Yankees farm systems produce this year it will have nothing to do with anything the Sox did, they won't have been drafted by the Sox nor learned anything in a Sox minor league system....so again they don't figure into your equation.

And as others have stated, the folks the Sox got this offseason, regardless of where they came from, were not and are not, highly regarded prospects by people who make their living following the minor leagues. (do you?)We're not talking Danks and or Floyd here.

Just my opinion, I expect little to nothing from the entire bunch of them in 2009.

If something happens otherwise, great...the Sox will benefit. But I'm not holding my breath. The minor league system has been in disarray and a disaster for at least a decade, that's what I know and history proves that correct.

Kenny is rolling the dice big time (assuming nothing fundamentally changes between now and opening day). The credit or blame goes completely to him.

As far as sticking my nose in the "here and now", my opinion frankly is this. Concerning myself with what is going on in the minor leagues would be fine if I were a fan of the Padres, Royals or Brewers.

The Chicago White Sox are in a major market.

In my opinion, their fans shouldn't have to worry nor give a tinker's cuss (I always wanted to use that phrase!) about what John Doe from Podunk, Arkansas is doing is Double AA. The White Sox should be run like the other big market teams...i.e. they get the young stars off the garbage clubs when those teams can't or won't afford to pay to keep them, by trading all these "can't miss kids" whom never seem to cut it with the Sox (especially pitching.) That's the way the big boys play the game...the Sox should be right there with them.

My worry in the "here and now" is what is happening with the big club, the highest level. That's what I discuss when I deal with members of the organization.

I'm not condemning your interest in the minor leagues. Great...have at it... if it makes you happy...I'm all for it. I just don't care about it, I have bigger fish to fry.

Oh and for the record I became a Sox fan when I was five. I'm 53 now so this season will mark my 48th year. I think I know a little something too about the game and in the areas that I don't, I rely, I trust the folks who have a reputation for expertise in a particular field. When it comes to the minor leagues, Daver has earned that reputation from others that I have spoken with.

No personal offense to you but I know nothing about you, your background (other then what you say it is) and if you have the slightest idea of what you are talking about.

Lip

Well Mark, first of all, if you've been following the team for as long as you have, you really ought to know more about the farm system and how it impacts the here and now. You don't, you rely on another message board poster and take everything he says as gospel. Again, no offense to him or any another poster whatsoever. That's fine, that's your right. I on the other hand learn about things myself. Whether you believe it or not is of zero consequence to me, but again, be prepared to be challenged when you make statements that reveal your lack of perspective on the topic.

Phil Rogers ... yes I know him ... he lives in my town as a matter of fact. He is an acquaintence, no I don't ask him for tapes or whatever, I don't need to. Phil is a writer, just like you, and he gets his information from talking to minor league managers, intructional people, his co-worker media people at Baseball America, etc. If you go to spring training sometime and pay attention to what's going on you can get some of the same information. The people you relied on for information said Orlando Hudson and Chone Figgins. Oops. There is a whole bigger picture you're missing.

Again, prospects are prospects, it doesn't matter if they've been acquired or drafted or signed from the Dominican Republic or Cuba or Timbuktu. They've been scouted, that's what matters. Results will be judged on their performance. It doesn't matter in the slightest what Phil Rogers or the Baseball America people say about their potential. What matters is results. And young players come out of nowhere every single year and produce results. Further, they are assets which can help with the here and now should a market opportunity present itself. It can happen, you are saying there's little chance it can happen and that just shows how little you know about the topic. It really shows how little you understand about putting together a big league team that you and I both care about.

So go ahead and care about the here and now, and complain on a message board how the White Sox aren't signing name players and how Uncle Jerry is cheap. If you follow the "big boys" or other major market franchises, you'll realize they do the exact same things the White Sox are starting to do with their farm system. Good instruction, good scouting, resources devoted to same. And here is the most important part Mark ... how that can directly impact 2009 results. Go listen to the KW press conference after the Vazquez trade, there are some nuggets in there that illustrate the point.

whitesox901
01-12-2009, 02:44 AM
:KW
"If you question me...I will crush you"

jabrch
01-12-2009, 09:53 AM
As far as sticking my nose in the "here and now", my opinion frankly is this. Concerning myself with what is going on in the minor leagues would be fine if I were a fan of the Padres, Royals or Brewers.

Lip - I know you sing this tune a lot - but I really am surprised how much you stick to it. The best teams in baseball are teams that develop their own players, and then augment that with FA spending at some level.


In my opinion, their fans shouldn't have to worry nor give a tinker's cuss (I always wanted to use that phrase!) about what John Doe from Podunk, Arkansas is doing is Double AA. The White Sox should be run like the other big market teams...i.e. they get the young stars off the garbage clubs when those teams can't or won't afford to pay to keep them, by trading all these "can't miss kids" whom never seem to cut it with the Sox (especially pitching.) That's the way the big boys play the game...the Sox should be right there with them.



Is that what the big boys do? Boston develops its own - and keeps them. NYY - when winning, was developing their own - and keeping them. The Cards wouldn't have made the WS twice without Pujols. The franchises that consistent win are those able to build their own, and spend money on FA and make trades to bring in player. We can't survive with a model that relies on guys in between years 3-6. It would never work consistently.

2906
01-12-2009, 09:57 AM
Lip - I know you sing this tune a lot - but I really am surprised how much you stick to it. The best teams in baseball are teams that develop their own players, and then augment that with FA spending at some level.

And use their prospects in trades to help with the here and now, which he doesn't seem to understand.

Lip Man 1
01-12-2009, 11:19 AM
2906:

One clarification. Phil has asked Daver for advice about Sox minor league products not the other way around.

----------------------------------------

Kenny has made a good living dumping the Sox minor league trash off for proven major league players in the past, look up his record. (This is directed towards Jab)

It's very interesting that one, maybe two, of those prospects at best, have done anything at the big league level. History shows you don't have to have "quality" minor league players to be able to move them for actual proven major league guys apparently. At least Kenny's track record shows this.

Given that history I don't think the need to have a "quality" bunch of tradeable prospects is as urgent as you seem to think it is.

And again Jab, if the Sox had showed me some competence overall regarding the minor league system, some track record of success, then my views would be different. I'd agree somewhat with you that perhaps a better mix is needed.

But history, particularly based upon Daver's examinations of the minor league operation financially, as well the results at the big league level show me that Kenny's Achilles heel is his ability to organize, develop and work with the minor league system.

He was in charge of it before he became the G.M. and outside of some great prospects over a decade ago (Ordonez, Lee) it has been below average. It has been particularly bad in pitching.

Obviously, for lack of a better word, Kenny doesn't "get it" in this area.

So why are some of you thinking that all of a sudden he will?

You work with your strength.

Kenny's strength is the ability to peddle three mediocre minor league players in order to get a decent major league player.

That's what he needs to stick with, not the other way around.

Just my opinion.

Lip

Lip Man 1
01-12-2009, 11:32 AM
2906:

I care about winning period.

To me, simply my opinion, the Sox have a better chance of "winning" with proven major league players then taking a shot on a bunch of unknowns who according to the law of averages won't spent one day in the major leagues.

(I'm referring to Baseball America's famous study from about five years ago that stated one per cent of all minor league players will ever spend a day in the big leagues and that one per cent of those will ever make an "impact." Not the best odds is it to be building an organizational philosophy around.)

The Sox can do what they want with their money, do I think they spend enough of it given their status and location...absolutely not. (But also give me points for being consistent in that regard.) Do I think a major league proven player is worth three minor league prospects (in general terms) absolutely yes. If the Sox want to go the "rebuilding," "retooling" route that's fine...as long as they are prepared to accept the consequences from the fan base if it explodes in their face.

What would really annoy me is if it blows up, Kenny or the organization then starts talking (as was done before 2005) about the fan base and why they aren't showing up etc.

You can't have it both ways. Sox fans expect a winner and won't pay to see mediocrity, if the route the Sox decide to ultimately take is to go "young" with a number of unproven players with mediocre minor league track records (and while this appears to be the case there are still about six weeks before spring training) well and good. Just don't start taking it out on the fan base if they don't support you or make more statements along the lines of "we'll spend if you show up."

To me that's not right.

It will be fascinating to see how this all plays out however.

Lip

LoveYourSuit
01-12-2009, 11:48 AM
2906:

One clarification. Phil has asked Daver for advice about Sox minor league products not the other way around.

----------------------------------------

Kenny has made a good living dumping the Sox minor league trash off for proven major league players in the past, look up his record. (This is directed towards Jab)

It's very interesting that one, maybe two, of those prospects at best, have done anything at the big league level. History shows you don't have to have "quality" minor league players to be able to move them for actual proven major league guys apparently. At least Kenny's track record shows this.

Given that history I don't think the need to have a "quality" bunch of tradeable prospects is as urgent as you seem to think it is.

And again Jab, if the Sox had showed me some competence overall regarding the minor league system, some track record of success, then my views would be different. I'd agree somewhat with you that perhaps a better mix is needed.

But history, particularly based upon Daver's examinations of the minor league operation financially, as well the results at the big league level show me that Kenny's Achilles heel is his ability to organize, develop and work with the minor league system.

He was in charge of it before he became the G.M. and outside of some great prospects over a decade ago (Ordonez, Lee) it has been below average. It has been particularly bad in pitching.

Obviously, for lack of a better word, Kenny doesn't "get it" in this area.

So why are some of you thinking that all of a sudden he will?

You work with your strength.

Kenny's strength is the ability to peddle three mediocre minor league players in order to get a decent major league player.

That's what he needs to stick with, not the other way around.

Just my opinion.

Lip


I couldn't agree with your more Lip.


The biggest weakness for the Sox since Kenny has been part of management (prior to becoming GM) is the development in the farm system. You would occasionaly strike gold here and there with a Lee, Ordonez, Crede & Buehrle ..... but everyhting beyond that has been extremely awful for the most part. Maybe the changes made down there will turn things around here in the near future, but there is no gurantee.

jabrch
01-12-2009, 12:06 PM
2906:

One clarification. Phil has asked Daver for advice about Sox minor league products not the other way around.

----------------------------------------

Kenny has made a good living dumping the Sox minor league trash off for proven major league players in the past, look up his record. (This is directed towards Jab)

It's very interesting that one, maybe two, of those prospects at best, have done anything at the big league level. History shows you don't have to have "quality" minor league players to be able to move them for actual proven major league guys apparently. At least Kenny's track record shows this.

Given that history I don't think the need to have a "quality" bunch of tradeable prospects is as urgent as you seem to think it is.

And again Jab, if the Sox had showed me some competence overall regarding the minor league system, some track record of success, then my views would be different. I'd agree somewhat with you that perhaps a better mix is needed.

But history, particularly based upon Daver's examinations of the minor league operation financially, as well the results at the big league level show me that Kenny's Achilles heel is his ability to organize, develop and work with the minor league system.

He was in charge of it before he became the G.M. and outside of some great prospects over a decade ago (Ordonez, Lee) it has been below average. It has been particularly bad in pitching.

Obviously, for lack of a better word, Kenny doesn't "get it" in this area.

So why are some of you thinking that all of a sudden he will?

You work with your strength.

Kenny's strength is the ability to peddle three mediocre minor league players in order to get a decent major league player.

That's what he needs to stick with, not the other way around.

Just my opinion.

Lip


Lip -

First - your assumption (and your slanted, biased language) is that he is "peddling" "trash" players who are not "quality". That's just ridiculous. That relies on other GMs being stupid - and the game doesn't work that way.

Second - and more important - it doesn't matter what you do with a prospect in his 2nd, 3rd, 4th year. If you don't "concern yourself" with the farm system today, you won't have them either to use or to trade. The process of drafting and developing them should be the same either way - up until the end, right?

Third - I don't care what KW does with prospects - I am concerned that he continue to develop players who have value for the franchise. For all the noise that he doesn't, he continues to use the farm to acquire players who fit in very well.

jabrch
01-12-2009, 12:16 PM
You can't have it both ways. Sox fans expect a winner and won't pay to see mediocrity, if the route the Sox decide to ultimately take is to go "young" with a number of unproven players with mediocre minor league track records (and while this appears to be the case there are still about six weeks before spring training) well and good. Just don't start taking it out on the fan base if they don't support you or make more statements along the lines of "we'll spend if you show up."

To me that's not right.

It will be fascinating to see how this all plays out however.

Lip

What you aren't recognizing Lip is that the Sox MUST have it both ways. They must focus on today, while building for tomorrow. If the consequence of that is an occasional 2006, great - I'm willing to deal with it. We don't (and won't) have the resources to ever be in the top 5 in payroll. I haven't heard anyone disagree with that - but I guess it wouldn't surprise me if someone did. We will likely always be in the middle of the pack somewhere. That's fine - history has shown you can win consistently that way. (and we have) But if you spend all your time focusing on the major league club, and never develop prospects, or allow them to develop, you will have a washed up miserable club eventually that will take YEARS to turn around, rather than something you can tweak on the fly.

Lip - it is you who can't have it both ways. You can't complain that you demand winning, and then not be willing to consider the value in making investments that will help to make you a winner over time. Trading 3 prospects for 1 veteran is a great plan - sometimes. But if you don't draft and develop good players you won't be able to do so. For all the pissing and moaning about the Sox minor league system, KW has used it to acquire key parts to his team that have kept it a over .500 and a contender, nearly every year he has run the team.

A GMs job is to focus to both short term and long term needs of the franchise. You may not give a damn about the latter - and that's your choice. But you are ignoring the fact that Williams is doing the right thing for this franchise, and that is not always spending money on an old guy who might give you more today than multiple prospect who might give you more value in the future - while the old guy also has a chance of being one of those albatross contracts that hurt a franchise. (KW has done a great job avoiding those)

2906
01-12-2009, 12:26 PM
Mark, I would say jabrch's response (#182) pretty much covers what I wanted to say, so no need for me to rehash it.

I don't think Williams is rolling the dice as much as you think though. I think he wants to see what value some of these young players have and then he'll see where the team is at come June/July. Not my preferred strategy, I prefer stacking the deck for April but I've watched enough to know the market for available players changes quickly.

Actually all I care about is winning too. So we are on the same page there. However I do think the farm system can play a key role in the here and now, in this case meaning the 2009 season. Not just from contributions by young players, but by having tradeable assets. They have some intriguing young arms at the lower levels and KW has proven he will move them for immediate help.

As for Phil Rogers, yes, I knew what you meant. Actually Phil asks a lot of people about stuff, he's a writer and has admitted he doesn't personally watch or even follow the farm system talent very closely. I happened to have drinks with him not long ago at a Mexican place in downtown Naperville that he likes and please don't take this the wrong way (I am not tooting my own horn by saying this) but it amazed me what he didn't know about White Sox prospects. That said, Phil is a super nice guy.

Unfortunately there is a lot of politics and hype as to who makes those Top 10 lists and all that PR stuff. Until recently, much of the hot air was coming from Wilder. That mess has been cleaned up thankfully. So ... actually I place very little weight on which prospect is getting all the love in the press, in particular Baseball America. As I said I dig a lot deeper.

2906
01-12-2009, 12:38 PM
Third - I don't care what KW does with prospects - I am concerned that he continue to develop players who have value for the franchise. For all the noise that he doesn't, he continues to use the farm to acquire players who fit in very well.

This is a key statement and in my opinion dead on.

Liptak is right when he says only a small % of prospects ever make it. So, it doesn't matter what Williams and his staff do with the prospects ... as long as they draft/sign players who have value to the franchise. Value either to the big league team or to other teams.

It seems to me the drafting strategy has changed somewhat since Duane Shafer was thankfully let go. Shafer was a long time employee and I'm not blaming Reinsdorf for this but I think Williams wanted to get rid of Shafer a long time ago and finally was able to do it. Picks like McCullough and even Lance Broadway set your franchise back and very simply, they needed and still need to do a better job at bringing in talent. One of the ways you do that is give yourself more chances, i.e. letting a guy like Orlando Cabrera walk, get more draft picks, and infuse the system.

Then you have to develop them properly. That is what Bell is doing. He totally revamped the teaching and fundamentals side of things and is making sure it's done the same way at all levels and that's good. It stands to reason if you draft better and develop better, you can have some marketable assets very quickly, particularly if you're drafting college players who have a reasonably refined game to begin with.

dickallen15
01-12-2009, 01:34 PM
Where are their payrolls in relation to the Sox and where will they be come opening day. The Sox lopping 25M still puts them in the area of $90M spent. That's after losing 500K tickets sold from 2006 to 2008. That's also before you calculate in increases to contracts already held and Viciedo.

The Sox raised prices $1-2/seat also and you folks are acting like it's the end of the world. Now all of a sudden ID want's to talk about it in terms of the times we are living in. You most loyal fans in baseball sound like a bunch of ****ing whiners. Do us all a favor, if this is what it means to be a loyal season ticket holding fan, go root for some other team. Go spam the Red Sox board with your tales of woe over the $2/seat increase. Fenway is laughing at you.

Be a season ticket holder or don't, it's your choice, but please stop hammering the club for what is a common business practice.

Its common business practice to raise prices when you are anticipating less demand?

According to Forbes, and I know we can only use Forbes when they say the White Sox have a higher payroll/income ratio but not for anything else, the White Sox have made over $70 million profit the past 3 years with the jacked up payroll.

LoveYourSuit
01-12-2009, 01:57 PM
Its common business practice to raise prices when you are anticipating less demand?

According to Forbes, and I know we can only use Forbes when they say the White Sox have a higher payroll/income ratio but not for anything else, the White Sox have made over $70 million profit the past 3 years with the jacked up payroll.

That's where the season ticket holders are up in arms since we are the only guranteed seats purchased as of now and we are paying more for them when we have been told there will be no demand for seats because of the economy and also a reduction in pay roll.

doublem23
01-12-2009, 02:14 PM
That's where the season ticket holders are up in arms since we are the only guranteed seats purchased as of now and we are paying more for them when we have been told there will be no demand for seats because of the economy and also a reduction in pay roll.

Were you given an opportunity to decline, or did Jerry and Kenny show up at your door with a gun?

Its common business practice to raise prices when you are anticipating less demand?

According to Forbes, and I know we can only use Forbes when they say the White Sox have a higher payroll/income ratio but not for anything else, the White Sox have made over $70 million profit the past 3 years with the jacked up payroll.

What makes you think any team is expecting less demand?

Not saying there will or won't, but the only people that have warned sports leagues about declining attendance have either been total outsiders or guys that really don't work in the financial realm of the game (Ozzie Guillen).

Right or wrong, I'd wager that most teams are anticipating business as usual in 2009.

jabrch
01-12-2009, 02:16 PM
Were you given an opportunity to decline, or did Jerry and Kenny show up at your door with a gun?

And did you make any sort of effort to talk to your ticket representative to understand your options? (Hint: The answer is NO YOU DID NOT)

dickallen15
01-12-2009, 02:24 PM
Were you given an opportunity to decline, or did Jerry and Kenny show up at your door with a gun?

Here's the deal, in order to buy playoff tickets last season, you had to buy them for every possible playoff game. If you declined, you would lose your status as a season ticketholder ie if you had been one for 20 years and had great seats, you would lose those and if you wanted to remain a season ticketholder, you would start over be a new account. Any games not played would go towards 2009 tickets and was non-refundable. The early exit left a lot of money on the table. $250-350 per game WS tickets add up when you have 4 of them x 2.

The White Sox still have yet to mention they will be raising prices this year to the public. Either they are just petrified to say so, and will at the last possible moment, or won't mention it at all and hope nobody notices or will spend a little cash soon and announce it after that.

dickallen15
01-12-2009, 02:29 PM
Were you given an opportunity to decline, or did Jerry and Kenny show up at your door with a gun?



What makes you think any team is expecting less demand?

Not saying there will or won't, but the only people that have warned sports leagues about declining attendance have either been total outsiders or guys that really don't work in the financial realm of the game (Ozzie Guillen).

Right or wrong, I'd wager that most teams are anticipating business as usual in 2009.
If they are not anticipating less demand, why is KW at his payroll limit even after raising prices after ridding the team of Vazquez $11.5 million, Crede $5.5 million, Swisher $5.3 million, Cabrera $9 million, Uribe $4.5 million, Hall $1.75 million ?

doublem23
01-12-2009, 02:36 PM
If they are not anticipating less demand, why is KW at his payroll limit even after raising prices after ridding the team of Vazquez $11.5 million, Crede $5.5 million, Swisher $5.3 million, Cabrera $9 million, Uribe $4.5 million, Hall $1.75 million ?

Maybe he's fibbing... Maybe he thinks all the F/A aren't worth what they're asking... Maybe he's not looking to add expensive free agents and their multimillion contracts when we have some good, young players that will be due raises soon... Maybe the Sox just don't want to spend $100 million+ again.

I really don't understand why we have to go over the fact that payroll and ticket prices are set independently of one another... Ticket prices are simply set on supply and demand...

doublem23
01-12-2009, 02:40 PM
Here's the deal, in order to buy playoff tickets last season, you had to buy them for every possible playoff game. If you declined, you would lose your status as a season ticketholder ie if you had been one for 20 years and had great seats, you would lose those and if you wanted to remain a season ticketholder, you would start over be a new account. Any games not played would go towards 2009 tickets and was non-refundable. The early exit left a lot of money on the table. $250-350 per game WS tickets add up when you have 4 of them x 2.

The White Sox still have yet to mention they will be raising prices this year to the public. Either they are just petrified to say so, and will at the last possible moment, or won't mention it at all and hope nobody notices or will spend a little cash soon and announce it after that.

I hope you're not expecting sympathy from me, a non-season ticket holder who waited unsuccessfully in Ticketmaster lines in both 2005 and 2008 (But I could have shelled out $200/seat on StubHub to sit in the nether reaches of the Upper Deck for Game 3! Yippee!!!). Oh no, you have to buy tickets to all the play-off games. If you had awesome seats, you could have easily gotten your money back (and probably made a nice profit) by turning around and offering them on StubHub. Or, since the Sox only played 2 of the possible 10 postseason games they could have hosted, now you're stuck with a huge rebate toward your '09 season tickets. Life... she can be so cruel.

Now, how many years in a row have the Sox raised ticket prices? I'll bet your one of the guys who get surprised when it snows every winter, too... Am I right?

Lip Man 1
01-12-2009, 02:44 PM
Jab / 2906:

It seems the only real disagreement that we have is with what happens to the minor league players. You guys (and if I'm wrong in this assumption I apologize) seem to think they need to play on the Sox big league roster at one point or another.

My opinion is that the only thing these guys generally are good for is shipping off to become some other organization's issue in exchange for a competent big league player who has a track record and can help today, not maybe three years from now.

And again I say that because of the results over the last decade plus. I'm not pulling this out of thin air.

The overwhelming majority of the time when the Sox bring up a "prospect" they fall flat on their faces. Daver can probably explain why they collapse better then I can. If Kenny, who has had success and a track record peddling these guys off for talent at the major league level, I'm all for it.

That was my point... to me based on historical facts and evidence, Kenny has his best success shipping these stiffs off for guys who can help the big league team in the here and now. And again I point out that history shows these "can't miss kids" can't seem to have any success with their new organizations either, which says a ton.

Again why work away from your strength as a G.M.? That's what has me puzzled.

Now five years from now, if the Sox have actually produced two or three kids who succeed with the big club, maybe get an All-Star out of one of them, I'll completely reevaluate my opinion. Buddy Bell may be able to pull that off.

But until them I don't see why you feel the Sox have to try something that they have been miserable at...namely asking kids today in April 2009, to play at the big league level when they have had very little success even at the minor league level. Beckham, Danks that ilk, very high draft picks are a totally different animal. That's why I said my opinion may change in a few years if they can come up, succeed and show me the Sox may be starting to put a minor league operation together.

I just think we should wait for them say in 2011, not jump the shark and think minor league stiffs are the answer now.

Lip

dickallen15
01-12-2009, 02:52 PM
I hope you're not expecting sympathy from me, a non-season ticket holder who waited unsuccessfully in Ticketmaster lines in both 2005 and 2008 (But I could have shelled out $200/seat on StubHub to sit in Row 20 of the Upper Deck for Game 3! Yippee!!!). Oh no, you have to buy tickets to all the play-off games. If you had awesome seats, you could have easily gotten your money back (and probably made a nice profit) by turning around and offering them on StubHub. Or, since the Sox only played 2 of the possible 10 postseason games they could have hosted, now you're stuck with a huge rebate toward your '09 season tickets.

Now, how many years in a row have the Sox raised ticket prices? I'll bet your one of the guys who get surprised when it snows every winter, too... Am I right?

As I stated earlier, I was anticipating an increase, BUT when KW goes on the radio and talks about the people hurting and the economy and says payroll will be lower because of it, that's were the problem lies. Not only for me but for everyone who has their money stuck with them. This money was paid in September. It is non refundable. How many people have lost their jobs since September? You can't say the economy blows so we have to cut our budget drastically and on the other side raise ticket prices. There is a trust that develops between business partners which is what season ticketholders and baseball teams are. If that trust is broken, trouble ensues. If the White Sox have a tough season in 2009, the people who are complaining about the complaining will be complaining about having to watch a AAA team in USCF because more accounts will bail then have ever bailed before. But as we have been told, ticket prices mean nothing and its common business practice to raise prices in tough economic times.
I just wonder how many accounts the Sox would lose if they said everyone can have a full refund. If they did that, I would agree complaining would be wrong if you decided to stay.

Lip Man 1
01-12-2009, 02:52 PM
2906:

And I agree with you about Phil. Very nice guy, gave me a good amount of his time when I interviewed him for WSI.

He was open and honest. I don't always agree with his thoughts or beliefs but I give him credit for trying to tell things as he sees them.

Lip

doublem23
01-12-2009, 02:54 PM
I just wonder how many accounts the Sox would lose if they said everyone can have a full refund. If they did that, I would agree complaining would be wrong if you decided to stay.

It seems as if we've reached a consensus.

jabrch
01-12-2009, 03:22 PM
Jab / 2906:

It seems the only real disagreement that we have is with what happens to the minor league players. You guys (and if I'm wrong in this assumption I apologize) seem to think they need to play on the Sox big league roster at one point or another.

My opinion is that the only thing these guys generally are good for is shipping off to become some other organization's issue in exchange for a competent big league player who has a track record and can help today, not maybe three years from now.

And again I say that because of the results over the last decade plus. I'm not pulling this out of thin air.

The overwhelming majority of the time when the Sox bring up a "prospect" they fall flat on their faces. Daver can probably explain why they collapse better then I can. If Kenny, who has had success and a track record peddling these guys off for talent at the major league level, I'm all for it.

That was my point... to me based on historical facts and evidence, Kenny has his best success shipping these stiffs off for guys who can help the big league team in the here and now. And again I point out that history shows these "can't miss kids" can't seem to have any success with their new organizations either, which says a ton.

Again why work away from your strength as a G.M.? That's what has me puzzled.

Now five years from now, if the Sox have actually produced two or three kids who succeed with the big club, maybe get an All-Star out of one of them, I'll completely reevaluate my opinion. Buddy Bell may be able to pull that off.

But until them I don't see why you feel the Sox have to try something that they have been miserable at...namely asking kids today in April 2009, to play at the big league level when they have had very little success even at the minor league level. Beckham, Danks that ilk, very high draft picks are a totally different animal. That's why I said my opinion may change in a few years if they can come up, succeed and show me the Sox may be starting to put a minor league operation together.

I just think we should wait for them say in 2011, not jump the shark and think minor league stiffs are the answer now.

Lip

"stiffs" "peddling" "competent"...


I'm not going to discuss these imaginary players who you paint in a negative light. Let's discuss real people with real facts and evaluate each of them based on their own situations.

You are effectively using Chris Snopek's history to paint a picture about Josh Fields. Sorry Lip - I just think that's a crappy thing to do. It is simpleminded. And it is only playing on the long odds that all prospects have. The math (1% make it) means you likely will be right. But the principle that you are expousing is still absolutely wrong. No good franchise would take your point of view on this Lip. Prospects from today's system, and their chances of succeeding, are not influenced by Jason Stumm. Lance Broadway is not Joel Davis.

You have built in your mind a correlation that doesn't exist.

2906
01-12-2009, 03:25 PM
Jab / 2906:

It seems the only real disagreement that we have is with what happens to the minor league players. You guys (and if I'm wrong in this assumption I apologize) seem to think they need to play on the Sox big league roster at one point or another.

My opinion is that the only thing these guys generally are good for is shipping off to become some other organization's issue in exchange for a competent big league player who has a track record and can help today, not maybe three years from now.



A couple of thoughts on this ...

At some point in time, when you have guys knocking at the door who have arguably nothing left to prove in Triple A, you either give them an opporunity, trade them, or let them walk as minor league free agents or on waivers.

Williams is well known for exploring the market for every one of his players. I don't know, but I would bet he knows exactly what he could get in trade for Josh Fields, Jerry Owens, Brian Anderson, and a few more. He has to evaluate what he could get in trade and what they'd cost in salary vs. the benefits he and his staff feel could be the production of these in house players if they're given an opportunity with the White Sox.

If he can only get a cracked bat and a dozen baseballs in trade for the likes of Fields, Owens, Anderson, etc. then doesn't it make sense in terms of asset management to see what they can produce at the big league level if they're given an opportunity? And if they produce, now you really have options. You can keep them, or trade them for something good because your young player now has value on the market. Williams seems to subscribe to this theory. By the way, just using those names as examples so if anyone is inclined to start another Brian Anderson argument, please refrain as it has been beaten to death.

If they are in fact "stiffs" as you dub them, and they fall on their face, you've given them a chance at least and you can't get more than a cracked bat and a dozen baseballs anyway. It appears Williams doesn't want to create even more holes by trading for other teams' players when it's possible he may already have players who can contribute. He and his scouts may be wrong, Fields and Anderson and Owens may in fact be horse dung but he wants to know for sure and I don't see a whole lot wrong with that.

The alternative of course is for KW to say "yup, Fields and Anderson and Owens and these other guys are indeed horse dung" and go out and sign free agents. He doesn't seem to feel the cost/benefit equation works out in the White Sox favor, either that or he doesn't feel certain players he could sign as FA's are good fits in the clubhouse.

Look, to be frank, I have never been thrilled with any of the 3 names I mentioned and again, they've been used for example purposes only. But I don't think they can get much for them, not at the moment anyway. So why not see what you've got in these guys.

voodoochile
01-12-2009, 03:45 PM
If they are not anticipating less demand, why is KW at his payroll limit even after raising prices after ridding the team of Vazquez $11.5 million, Crede $5.5 million, Swisher $5.3 million, Cabrera $9 million, Uribe $4.5 million, Hall $1.75 million ?

Dye is +$2M, Viciedo is +$5M ($1M salary and $4M bonus), Dotel is +$1M, AJ is +0.5M, Linebrink is +$0.5M, Betemit $1.3M, Thornton is +0.5M, TCM is +0.15M, Jenks +0.1M, Nix +0.4K, McDougal +0.7M (ugh). In addition, there are two starting pitchers who will make about another $1M and they someone is going to have to be the backup catcher.


Source: http://mlbcontracts.blogspot.com/2005/01/chicago-white-sox.html

That's over $11M of the money right there. In addition, the Sox have seen attendance fall by 500K last year from it's peak in 2006.

Also, even if people keep their tickets, there is no guarantee revenue will stay the same. People will probably spend less on concessions and Sox gear than last year on a per person basis. Who knows what is going to happen to ad revenue for the TV station. Right now by all estimates they are looking at an opening day payroll of ~$96M (Thome's payment from the Phillies will probably make the actual number less).

Lip Man 1
01-12-2009, 05:44 PM
2906:

I understand what you are trying to say and my only reply is that if you give these guys chances, who have had a spotty career in the minor leagues at best....you are impacting the major league teams ability to win games in the here and now.

The Sox can not afford to tank again in 2009 for example coming off a miserable 2007 when Kenny decided to take a chance on a bunch of mediocre career minor league pitchers for his bullpen. (In my opinion the biggest reason why the Sox fell apart-the bullpen was atrocious)

----------------

Jab:

My above example (bullpen 2007) is part of the reason why I hold to my belief that Kenny and or his minor league staff is not a good judge of minor league talent or ability. If they couldn't draft, develop kids ten years ago, if they couldn't draft, develop kids five years ago, if they couldn't draft,develop kids two years ago WHY should one think they can do it now?

Those who fail to learn from history are doomed to repeat it, at least Kenny the same guy who was in charge of the minor league system in the late 90's is still around, and history shows the minor league system is not his strength.

That's why I must disagree with you...the same person /organization that took guys like Jason Strumm, David West etc is still calling the shots. What happened in the past DOES matter when it's the same area today.

That's not trying to dis Kenny, like I said earlier his best ability is to deal mediocrity (is that a better term to you) for guys that have something of a big league track record and can help the White Sox win games now, not help Birmingham not help Charlotte etc.

Lip

Lip Man 1
01-12-2009, 05:50 PM
Jab:

Also if you believe what Daver has been saying for a long time (and I think it's a very valid point) until the Sox start pouring more money into the minor league operation and hiring competent instructors and scouts it's not going to matter anyway.

The players they move along will come to the Sox unprepared for the big leagues, will fail - some spectacularly, and Kenny will eventually discard them for folks who have a chance to impact the big club.

Some other team will always think they can "turn around" the Sox failures.

Lip

Daver
01-12-2009, 05:53 PM
Jab:

Also if you believe what Daver has been saying for a long time (and I think it's a very valid point) until the Sox start pouring more money into the minor league operation and hiring competent instructors and scouts it's not going to matter anyway.


They started doing this last off season actually, they brought in quite a few new coaches and instructors handpicked by Buddy Bell, but their overall philosphy of how players advance hasn't changed, and that is where the biggest problem lies.

2906
01-12-2009, 06:43 PM
2906:

I understand what you are trying to say and my only reply is that if you give these guys chances, who have had a spotty career in the minor leagues at best....you are impacting the major league teams ability to win games in the here and now.

The Sox can not afford to tank again in 2009 for example coming off a miserable 2007 when Kenny decided to take a chance on a bunch of mediocre career minor league pitchers for his bullpen. (In my opinion the biggest reason why the Sox fell apart-the bullpen was atrocious)

----------------

Jab:

My above example (bullpen 2007) is part of the reason why I hold to my belief that Kenny and or his minor league staff is not a good judge of minor league talent or ability. If they couldn't draft, develop kids ten years ago, if they couldn't draft, develop kids five years ago, if they couldn't draft,develop kids two years ago WHY should one think they can do it now?

Those who fail to learn from history are doomed to repeat it, at least Kenny the same guy who was in charge of the minor league system in the late 90's is still around, and history shows the minor league system is not his strength.

That's why I must disagree with you...the same person /organization that took guys like Jason Strumm, David West etc is still calling the shots. What happened in the past DOES matter when it's the same area today.

That's not trying to dis Kenny, like I said earlier his best ability is to deal mediocrity (is that a better term to you) for guys that have something of a big league track record and can help the White Sox win games now, not help Birmingham not help Charlotte etc.

Lip

Mark, not to go around and around with this, but ...

On your response to me. None of us know if they're jeopardizing 2009 results by going with young guys. Veterans off the proverbial scrap heap could perform worse than these young guys. It's possible and it happens in baseball every year.

The key guys in the minor leagues until recently (1-2 years) were Duane Shafer who did drafting, Dave Wilder and Alan Regier. Two are gone thankfully and Regier got shuffled. So it was not Williams who was actually going out and scouting these potential draft choices and prospects. He may have seen the odd guy here and there but not to a great extent.

Where I fault Williams is his management of the situation. He trusted Wilder and got burned. I think he grudgingly coexisted with Duane Shafer until things came to a head. He should've forced that issue long ago. I also fault Williams for sticking with some of the same instructional guys forever like Jim Snyder. However, if you bring in lousy talent it won't make much difference how good your instructional guys are. Silk purse, sows ear.

I do give Williams credit for identifying Carlos Quentin and Alexei Ramirez, although Dave Wilder had the biggest hand in scouting Ramirez. That's damn good scouting no matter how you slice it.

Regarding your response to Jab. Many of the people identifying the talent have changed. The instructional people have changed wholesale. So it is not a case of "they couldn't do it before, they can't do it now". Different people will bring different recommendations resulting in different decisions. Williams has a crew like Bill Young and Gary Pellant and a few other guys like Dave Yoakum who are highly respected. KW does some scouting, he likes to scout, but he can't do it that much.

I'm more optimistic about scouting and development because they've changed a significant amount of things. They've added several prospects and if this team is in the hunt I would bet you'll see Williams trade a few to get immediate help. Meanwhile he gets a truer handle on his young players.

But you have to recognize and accept the faces have changed, and recognize you may well get very different and better results. A big part of this starts with Bell and we agree he is a good man, to be trusted.

As for how they promote guys from one level to another. It has historically been based on offensive stats/output for position players which in my mind is the wrong way to do it. The White Sox like to challenge their players and I think they should have a well rounded game or they shouldn't get moved up. Which ties right back into drafting. However I have seen progress. Brandon Allen is one. They have been extremely patient with him and Brandon is beginning to really refine his game and now looks like someone with a decent chance of making it (hence him getting a 40 man spot). That is one example, there are others.

They need to improve their OF instruction and frankly I wish they leaned on Darrin Jackson to help them. He in my estimation would be a tremendous asset.

kitekrazy
01-12-2009, 06:50 PM
Who else is starting to question the loyalty of our fanbase?

How about the intelligence?

jabrch
01-12-2009, 09:38 PM
How about the intelligence?

I question both when it comes to the vocal few. I question neither about the majority.

Lip Man 1
01-13-2009, 11:25 AM
Daver:

Thanks for the update. I knew about a batch of instructors getting fired...didn't know they were spending a little more money

---------------

2906:

Again your remarks are thoughtful and have some merit. It's going to take more time before we can judge if things are turning around in the Sox minor league system or not. I'd rather not jeopardize this season taking the chance to see if this is so, but that's not my decision.

Kenny has at least partially decided to go in that direction and he'll take full credit or blame depending on the results.

Daver's point about moving kids around before they have adapted and become well rounded is extremely valid, that's part of the reason why most fail miserably when they come to the big club.

Back in the day, guys who would become All Star's, 20 game winners and throw no hitters like Gary Peters and Joe Horlen would spend years in the minors learning their trade before they even sniffed a shot with the Sox, today guys are being rushed up before they know anything about the game at the big league level.

There has to be a happy medium between the two shouldn't there?

Lip

2906
01-13-2009, 12:42 PM
2906:

Again your remarks are thoughtful and have some merit. It's going to take more time before we can judge if things are turning around in the Sox minor league system or not. I'd rather not jeopardize this season taking the chance to see if this is so, but that's not my decision.

Kenny has at least partially decided to go in that direction and he'll take full credit or blame depending on the results.

Daver's point about moving kids around before they have adapted and become well rounded is extremely valid, that's part of the reason why most fail miserably when they come to the big club.

Back in the day, guys who would become All Star's, 20 game winners and throw no hitters like Gary Peters and Joe Horlen would spend years in the minors learning their trade before they even sniffed a shot with the Sox, today guys are being rushed up before they know anything about the game at the big league level.

There has to be a happy medium between the two shouldn't there?

Lip

1. They'll know this year if things are turning around or not.

2. Yes, Williams will be judged on the results of these young players and
that's only fair.

3. The biggest reason why a lot of these young players don't succeed is
because they aren't that good to begin with. That in no way
minimizes the point made about the importance of good instruction
though. That aspect is extremely important and I've seen strides.

4. There does need to be a happy medium. The game is way different
now than in the 60's, with free agency, arbitration years, agents, and
so on. Not to mention guys getting guaranteed big league invites and
40 man roster spots in their first contract after being drafted. The
White Sox do their best to avoid this trap and I applaud them for it.

5. Peters spent quite a few years in the minors but Horlen certainly
didn't. Three years if my memory is correct, in fact I think he might
have pitched an inning or two with the '59 team. If a guy has talent
then a guy has talent. If they're well schooled they're well schooled.
Which is part of drafting ... take guys from respected programs who
have a good start on playing the game the right way. It all goes
hand in hand in the big picture.

Lip Man 1
01-13-2009, 01:14 PM
Joe payed three full seasons in the minors before coming up to the Sox in September 61. He then spent most of 62 with the Sox appearing in 20 games before going back to the minors for a short period in 1963.

He became a regular for the Sox later in the 63 season.

He did not appear with the 59 team.

Lip

2906
01-13-2009, 01:40 PM
Joe payed three full seasons in the minors before coming up to the Sox in September 61. He then spent most of 62 with the Sox appearing in 20 games before going back to the minors for a short period in 1963.

He became a regular for the Sox later in the 63 season.

He did not appear with the 59 team.

Lip

It must've been Peters who pitched an inning or two in '59. Horlen pitched less than 450 innings in the minors, certainly not an inordinately large amount and arguably less than most guys did back then. For comparison sake, Gavin Floyd pitched over 800 minor league innings before becoming a regular. John Danks pitched 426, just a few less than Horlen.

Paulwny
01-13-2009, 02:48 PM
It must've been Peters who pitched an inning or two in '59. Horlen pitched less than 450 innings in the minors, certainly not an inordinately large amount and arguably less than most guys did back then. For comparison sake, Gavin Floyd pitched over 800 minor league innings before becoming a regular. John Danks pitched 426, just a few less than Horlen.


In '59 Peters pitched in 2 games, 1 inning.