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NLaloosh
01-08-2009, 11:45 AM
It was reported by Rotoworld that the A's are interested in signing him to a 1 yr. deal and would give up the draft pick.

If I'm not mistaken that would be a first round pick, right? Does anyone know for sure?

Craig Grebeck
01-08-2009, 11:54 AM
It was reported by Rotoworld that the A's are interested in signing him to a 1 yr. deal and would give up the draft pick.

If I'm not mistaken that would be a first round pick, right? Does anyone know for sure?
No.

The best news, of course, would be for him to come back here on a one year deal.

Edit: the A's pick is protected.

SoxyStu
01-08-2009, 12:04 PM
No.

The best news, of course, would be for him to come back here on a one year deal.

Edit: the A's pick is protected.

His return is the worst possible scenario, of course. Get over it already - he will not return. He doesn't want to be here; the dishes are done.

NLaloosh
01-08-2009, 12:10 PM
The White Sox so do not need him.

Firstly, how many infielders do they need ? Fields, Betemit, Ramirez, Lillibridge, Nix, Getz, Viciedo and Beckham are not enough for 3 positions ?

Secondly, unless a guy was really special, the Sox should stick with all of the young talent they currently have.

Lastly, we all witnessed last season that Cabrera is not "special". He was fine. But, he's also old and also expensive.

And, again I guess we have to mention that the Sox don't like him and he doesn't like them - as if all of the other reasons weren't enough.

doublem23
01-08-2009, 12:14 PM
Firstly, how many infielders do they need ? Fields, Betemit, Ramirez, Lillibridge, Nix, Getz, Viciedo and Beckham are not enough for 3 positions ?


Let's see... 1 of those guys is a competent Major League infielder.
2 of those guys are probably not ready to play in the MLB in 2009.
1 of those guys is young and unproven, but probably isn't starting material
1 of those guys is, at best, a supersub on a good team
3 of those guys totally suck.

Craig Grebeck
01-08-2009, 12:15 PM
His return is the worst possible scenario, of course. Get over it already - he will not return. He doesn't want to be here; the dishes are done.
If you're content with Jerry Owens in CF, by all means.
The White Sox so do not need him.

Firstly, how many infielders do they need ? Fields, Betemit, Ramirez, Lillibridge, Nix, Getz, Viciedo and Beckham are not enough for 3 positions ?

Secondly, unless a guy was really special, the Sox should stick with all of the young talent they currently have.

Lastly, we all witnessed last season that Cabrera is not "special". He was fine. But, he's also old and also expensive.

And, again I guess we have to mention that the Sox don't like him and he doesn't like them - as if all of the other reasons weren't enough.
I see a bunch of utility players in that list sans Getz (who should start at 2nd) and Beckham (who should start...at Birmingham).

Cabrera on a one-year deal allows Ramirez to play CF and Getz to play 2B. Our infield defense gets a ton better and our lineup does as well.

dickallen15
01-08-2009, 12:16 PM
The White Sox so do not need him.

Firstly, how many infielders do they need ? Fields, Betemit, Ramirez, Lillibridge, Nix, Getz, Viciedo and Beckham are not enough for 3 positions ?

Secondly, unless a guy was really special, the Sox should stick with all of the young talent they currently have.

Lastly, we all witnessed last season that Cabrera is not "special". He was fine. But, he's also old and also expensive.

And, again I guess we have to mention that the Sox don't like him and he doesn't like them - as if all of the other reasons weren't enough.

For just the 2009 season, Cabrera is probably better than the 7 or 8 names you mentioned. If he would sign cheap, he could have a nice year. The White Sox probably wouldn't offer him arb again and he could make more money. Its just as well he signs with Oakland, but if that turns out to be the case, all the chatter about the draft picks Cabrera would bring back will be a sandwich pick and a second rounder. Really not that huge of a deal.

DSpivack
01-08-2009, 12:21 PM
For just the 2009 season, Cabrera is probably better than the 7 or 8 names you mentioned. If he would sign cheap, he could have a nice year. The White Sox probably wouldn't offer him arb again and he could make more money. Its just as well he signs with Oakland, but if that turns out to be the case, all the chatter about the draft picks Cabrera would bring back will be a sandwich pick and a second rounder. Really not that huge of a deal.

If we signed him back, that would really suck. I would hate giving up draft picks to ourselves.

voodoochile
01-08-2009, 12:31 PM
If you're content with Jerry Owens in CF, by all means.

I see a bunch of utility players in that list sans Getz (who should start at 2nd) and Beckham (who should start...at Birmingham).

Cabrera on a one-year deal allows Ramirez to play CF and Getz to play 2B. Our infield defense gets a ton better and our lineup does as well.

The Sox want Ramirez at SS this year to see if he is as good as he appears to be there so they can figure out where to move Beckham to if TCM proves to be the long term answer (as expected). Pushing off finding out about that merely delays the inevitable and possibly screws up future years.

Your answer is to play for this year and this year alone. The Sox are taking a longer term approach to things as well they should. I like OC, but I can understand why the Sox don't want him back given the depth they have at middle infield positions at the moment.

If Ramirez proves merely adequate at SS this year and both JO and BA falter in CF then they can move him to CF next year, put Viciedo in RF, Beckham at SS and sign FA Roberts (for example) to play 2B (provided none of the youngsters work out).

Ramirez projects as the teams long term answer at SS according to the scouts, according to history, according to WS management itself. The time to start proving or disproving that is now...

Edit: Personally I'd rather the Sox put any money available into starting pitching...

Gammons Peter
01-08-2009, 12:32 PM
Let's see... 1 of those guys is a competent Major League infielder.
2 of those guys are probably not ready to play in the MLB in 2009.
1 of those guys is young and unproven, but probably isn't starting material
1 of those guys is, at best, a supersub on a good team
3 of those guys totally suck.


Nailed it! Nice job telling it like it is

Britt Burns
01-08-2009, 12:35 PM
It was reported by Rotoworld that the A's are interested in signing him to a 1 yr. deal and would give up the draft pick.

If I'm not mistaken that would be a first round pick, right? Does anyone know for sure?

the Sox would get a sandwich pick after the first round and then (I believe) the A's 2nd round pick if the A's do not sign another FA who is higher rated than OC (Manny, for instance. Not sure about Giambi).

LoveYourSuit
01-08-2009, 12:42 PM
Let's see... 1 of those guys is a competent Major League infielder.
2 of those guys are probably not ready to play in the MLB in 2009.
1 of those guys is young and unproven, but probably isn't starting material
1 of those guys is, at best, a supersub on a good team
3 of those guys totally suck.


Is that really you posting this? :o:

I couldn't agree with you more, and that's the shocking part.

doublem23
01-08-2009, 12:44 PM
Is that really you posting this? :o:

I couldn't agree with you more, and that's the shocking part.

Ugh, I'd say I need to take a shower, but they don't make water hot enough.

:tongue:

You don't have to see eye-to-eye about Sox economics to know a stockpile of (mostly) ****ty players when you see them.

The only wild card of this group is Getz, who has a nice little track record in the minors and is largely unproven at the bigs. He might turn out to be a decent starting second baseman, but I just don't see it. I hope he proves me wrong in the worst possible way, I just don't like that it seems like the job is his to lose, and if he does, we'll have Jayson Nix or Brent Lillibridge there to swoop up all that PT!

Blargh.

kittle42
01-08-2009, 12:47 PM
You don't have to see eye-to-eye about Sox economics to know a stockpile of (mostly) ****ty players when you see them.

No kidding. 7 piles of crap or guys who are not ready does not equate to "depth."

Craig Grebeck
01-08-2009, 12:47 PM
The Sox want Ramirez at SS this year to see if he is as good as he appears to be there so they can figure out where to move Beckham to if TCM proves to be the long term answer (as expected). Pushing off finding out about that merely delays the inevitable and possibly screws up future years.

Your answer is to play for this year and this year alone. The Sox are taking a longer term approach to things as well they should. I like OC, but I can understand why the Sox don't want him back given the depth they have at middle infield positions at the moment.

If Ramirez proves merely adequate at SS this year and both JO and BA falter in CF then they can move him to CF next year, put Viciedo in RF, Beckham at SS and sign FA Roberts (for example) to play 2B (provided none of the youngsters work out).

Ramirez projects as the teams long term answer at SS according to the scouts, according to history, according to WS management itself. The time to start proving or disproving that is now...

Edit: Personally I'd rather the Sox put any money available into starting pitching...
I get what you're saying, but CF is a bigger hole than SS for this team, mainly because quality center fielders are very difficult to find at the moment. By putting Ramirez there, we allow a very good defensive SS to play for one year which would ease the pain that will be the "Fieltemit" platoon at third.

johnnyg83
01-08-2009, 12:50 PM
No kidding. 7 piles of crap or guys who are not ready does not equate to "depth."

For the record, who are the seven piles of crap?

doublem23
01-08-2009, 12:52 PM
For the record, who are the seven piles of crap?

Everybody not named Alexei Ramirez.

(Before the Beckhamites start calling me an idiot, I think he'll be a good Major League player, maybe even a great one... But not in 2009)

LoveYourSuit
01-08-2009, 12:57 PM
Ugh, I'd say I need to take a shower, but they don't make water hot enough.

:tongue:

You don't have to see eye-to-eye about Sox economics to know a stockpile of (mostly) ****ty players when you see them.

The only wild card of this group is Getz, who has a nice little track record in the minors and is largely unproven at the bigs. He might turn out to be a decent starting second baseman, but I just don't see it. I hope he proves me wrong in the worst possible way, I just don't like that it seems like the job is his to lose, and if he does, we'll have Jayson Nix or Brent Lillibridge there to swoop up all that PT!

Blargh.


I couldn't agree with you and Kittle more on this.

I have read way too many people here are excited about this "depth" we have at Middle IF ....... just having boddies there does not mean you have depth. Same goes for our 4-5 SP spots.

I take quality over quantity any day of the week.

kittle42
01-08-2009, 01:03 PM
For the record, who are the seven piles of crap?

I said 7 piles of crap or guys who are not ready. Poorly worded, but seven applies to the total of both, so Fields, Betemit, Lillibridge, Nix, Getz, Viciedo, and Beckham.

DumpJerry
01-08-2009, 01:08 PM
Before we all jump off a bridge over the protected pick, let's review two facts:

1. It is Rotoworld, not a 100% reliable source.
2. The rumor is a one-year contract. OC wants multi-year. He might not do it to see if someone else comes in with a multi-year offer.

getonbckthr
01-08-2009, 01:15 PM
To be honest at the current make up of our team I see us no better than 3rd place. I'm ok with that. With 2 question marks at pitcher it doesn't matter if we have Cabrera or Lillibridge starting. For that reason I don't want OC back and would prefer draft picks.

dickallen15
01-08-2009, 01:19 PM
Before we all jump off a bridge over the protected pick, let's review two facts:

1. It is Rotoworld, not a 100% reliable source.
2. The rumor is a one-year contract. OC wants multi-year. He might not do it to see if someone else comes in with a multi-year offer.


The draft pick situation shows a couple of things:
1. How foolish Cabrera was to turn down arbitration where he easily could have received $10 million for 1 season.

2. How foolish it was for the White Sox to offer arbitration to a player they had zero interest in bringing back and risk having him accept it and have to pay him $10 million or more for what could be a sandwich pick and a second rounder, unless of course the Yankees change their minds and its a 4th or 5th rounder. He would have essentially been untradeable, and the White Sox would have had to cling to the hope that he was awful during spring training so they could get away with releasing him.

thedudeabides
01-08-2009, 01:22 PM
The draft pick situation shows a couple of things:
1. How foolish Cabrera was to turn down arbitration where he easily could have received $10 million for 1 season.

2. How foolish it was for the White Sox to offer arbitration to a player they had zero interest in bringing back and risk having him accept it and have to pay him $10 million or more for what could be a sandwich pick and a second rounder, unless of course the Yankees change their minds and its a 4th or 5th rounder. He would have essentially been untradeable, and the White Sox would have had to cling to the hope that he was awful during spring training so they could get away with releasing him.

Maybe Cabrera wanted nothing to do with coming back here, and the Sox new that. Contrary to popular belief, not everything that goes on within the hallowed walls of the White Sox front office is eventually reported, discussed, and verified on WSI.

Since he didn't except, it worked out well for the Sox. So, I don't see how it was foolish for the Sox to offer arbitration.

LoveYourSuit
01-08-2009, 01:23 PM
To be honest at the current make up of our team I see us no better than 3rd place. I'm ok with that. With 2 question marks at pitcher it doesn't matter if we have Cabrera or Lillibridge starting. For that reason I don't want OC back and would prefer draft picks.


Sox are a lead off hitter and a 200 inning 4.20 ERA starting pitcher away from being a contender in the Central this season.


We are not too far away. But it will be tough to go to battle with the AL East.

2906
01-08-2009, 01:26 PM
2. How foolish it was for the White Sox to offer arbitration to a player they had zero interest in bringing back and risk having him accept it and have to pay him $10 million or more for what could be a sandwich pick and a second rounder, unless of course the Yankees change their minds and its a 4th or 5th rounder. He would have essentially been untradeable, and the White Sox would have had to cling to the hope that he was awful during spring training so they could get away with releasing him.

In this case I think they knew exactly what they were doing. The players association always puts big time pressure on guys to decline arbitration and this year was no exception.

At the time, the market for free agent SS hadn't crystalized, lots of things were up in the air. Plus Cabrera likely wanted out of Chicago in a big way and that wasn't a mystery to the White Sox.

Regardless, it worked out well ... not for Cabrera though, at least thus far. Personally I think he, and his agent, thought he'd end up a Dodger. Oops.

nysox35
01-08-2009, 01:41 PM
Sox are a lead off hitter and a 200 inning 4.20 ERA starting pitcher away from being a contender in the Central this season.


We are not too far away. But it will be tough to go to battle with the AL East.

Why did we trade Javy again?

kittle42
01-08-2009, 01:42 PM
Why did we trade Javy again?

"Guts" or something stupid like that.

dickallen15
01-08-2009, 01:43 PM
Maybe Cabrera wanted nothing to do with coming back here, and the Sox new that. Contrary to popular belief, not everything that goes on within the hallowed walls of the White Sox front office is eventually reported, discussed, and verified on WSI.

Since he didn't except, it worked out well for the Sox. So, I don't see how it was foolish for the Sox to offer arbitration.

Cabrera did say he was thinking about accepting the offer. It was foolish because all of these guys are about the money. Do you really think if Cabrera thought there was any way what is happening to him now would really happen, he wouldn't have accepted the White Sox offer? For one season, an extra $4-5 million in the bank is worth it to him, no matter how much he hated playing for the Sox. It also was being reported for a long time who would get squeezed in this market, and he was right in the middle of that group. Risking $10+ million for the opportunity of collecting a sandwich pick and perhaps a second rounder is silly. How many times have the White Sox paid a combination of those picks $10 million? The risk outweighed the reward by quite a bit. One thing the Sox could do since they did dodge a huge bullet, is go above slot for these picks, but chances of that are slim. Everyone does dumb things from time to time and it works out that there is no harm done. It doesn't mean it still wasn't dumb. Cabrera really needs to fire his agent.

thedudeabides
01-08-2009, 01:55 PM
Cabrera did say he was thinking about accepting the offer. It was foolish because all of these guys are about the money. Do you really think if Cabrera thought there was any way what is happening to him now would really happen, he wouldn't have accepted the White Sox offer? For one season, an extra $4-5 million in the bank is worth it to him, no matter how much he hated playing for the Sox. It also was being reported for a long time who would get squeezed in this market, and he was right in the middle of that group. Risking $10+ million for the opportunity of collecting a sandwich pick and perhaps a second rounder is silly. How many times have the White Sox paid a combination of those picks $10 million? The risk outweighed the reward by quite a bit. One thing the Sox could do since they did dodge a huge bullet, is go above slot for these picks, but chances of that are slim. Everyone does dumb things from time to time and it works out that there is no harm done. It doesn't mean it still wasn't dumb. Cabrera really needs to fire his agent.

But, it looks like the Sox did their homework and new he wouldn't accept. In the past, if they thought players may accept, they didn't take the chance(Mags). It was not dumb. It worked out as planned.

Cabrera may have wanted nothing to do with being here and he wanted a long term contract. So, he turned it down. Maybe, his agent advised him to take it? So, he should fire him? This hasn't even played out yet, we don't know what he will get.

As mentioned above, the players union puts pressure on players not to accept.

cards press box
01-08-2009, 02:00 PM
Everybody not named Alexei Ramirez.

(Before the Beckhamites start calling me an idiot, I think he'll be a good Major League player, maybe even a great one... But not in 2009)

How do you know? Before last season (or, indeed, before last May), did you know that Alexei Ramirez would have a breakout season? How about Carlos Quentin. In March 2008, did you know that Quentin would have a breakout season?

Some posters were highly critical of the White Sox at this time in 2007 precisely because they had not seen Ramirez or Quentin play and did not know what to expect. I remember posting that Quentin was a highly successful minor league player in the Arizona system and had a rough year in 2007 due to injuries.

Like Quentin, Brent Lillibridge was a top prospect in his former team's minor league system. He was injured for part of 2008 and that set him back. To me, he is still a top prospect and could very well break out in 2009.

How is this for a novel idea -- why not wait and see some of these guys play before jumping to conclusions and denigrating them as "7 piles of crap."

dickallen15
01-08-2009, 02:06 PM
But, it looks like the Sox did their homework and new he wouldn't accept. In the past, if they thought players may accept, they didn't take the chance(Mags). It was not dumb. It worked out as planned.

Cabrera may have wanted nothing to do with being here and he wanted a long term contract. So, he turned it down. Maybe, his agent advised him to take it? So, he should fire him? This hasn't even played out yet, we don't know what he will get.

As mentioned above, the players union puts pressure on players not to accept.
Then maybe the union will give him some money to make up the difference when he does eventually sign. Its up to the agent to talk to teams and know what his market is when the decision to accept or decline arbitration is up. It was pretty easy to discern that OC would be hard pressed to get what he wanted in the open market this offseason. Some agents just didn't buy it. His apparently was one, and if his agent told him to accept it, but he turned it down anyway, why should he employ that agent? If he isn't going to listen to him, its silly to have him on the payroll. Its another example of why he would need a new one.

NLaloosh
01-08-2009, 02:07 PM
the Sox would get a sandwich pick after the first round and then (I believe) the A's 2nd round pick if the A's do not sign another FA who is higher rated than OC (Manny, for instance. Not sure about Giambi).


Thanks for answering my question.

NLaloosh
01-08-2009, 02:09 PM
Wow! I can't believe how many people here loved Cabrera this year!

I'm glad you're not running the White Sox.

russ99
01-08-2009, 02:12 PM
How do you know? Before last season (or, indeed, before last May), did you know that Alexei Ramirez would have a breakout season? How about Carlos Quentin. In March 2008, did you know that Quentin would have a breakout season?

Some posters were highly critical of the White Sox at this time in 2007 precisely because they had not seen Ramirez or Quentin play and did not know what to expect. I remember posting that Quentin was a highly successful minor league player in the Arizona system and had a rough year in 2007 due to injuries.

Like Quentin, Brent Lillibridge was a top prospect in his former team's minor league system. He was injured for part of 2008 and that set him back. To me, he is still a top prospect and could very well break out in 2009.

How is this for a novel idea -- why not wait and see some of these guys play before jumping to conclusions and denigrating them as "7 piles of crap."

The difference being, we had other players with significant major league experience in LF and 2B last year, and Carlos & Alexei performed their way into starting jobs.

This year Kenny seems to be throwing a bunch of inexperienced names for 2B and 3B at the wall and hoping one of them sticks, with no veteran backups.

That's not to say these guys are as quoted. I have high hopes for Lillibridge and Viciedo, and so-so ones for Getz, but IMO he's not the sure thing some people around here seem to think.

NLaloosh
01-08-2009, 02:12 PM
Players that the White Sox currently have that would be better to start at SS THIS YEAR:

Alexei Ramirez
Brent Lillibridge
Gordon Beckham


And, as far as I know none of them have ever called the press box complaining about calls.

jabrch
01-08-2009, 02:13 PM
Wow! I can't believe how many people here loved Cabrera this year!

I'm guessing it is more passion for complaining than love for OC.

HomeFish
01-08-2009, 02:13 PM
Wow! I can't believe how many people here loved Cabrera this year!

I'm glad you're not running the White Sox.

Yeah, how dare that assclown Cabreba come to Chicago, put up solid offensive numbers at the top of the lineup, and play solid defense.

johnnyg83
01-08-2009, 02:15 PM
Reports of his defense were highly exaggerated.

thedudeabides
01-08-2009, 02:16 PM
Then maybe the union will give him some money to make up the difference when he does eventually sign. Its up to the agent to talk to teams and know what his market is when the decision to accept or decline arbitration is up. It was pretty easy to discern that OC would be hard pressed to get what he wanted in the open market this offseason. Some agents just didn't buy it. His apparently was one, and if his agent told him to accept it, but he turned it down anyway, why should he employ that agent? If he isn't going to listen to him, its silly to have him on the payroll. Its another example of why he would need a new one.

I have no idea what his conversations were with his agent, but the biggest reason for him to decline would be that he wanted nothing to do with playing here. It also precludes him from getting a multi-year contract, which reportedly was his goal of the offseason. Which he still may get.

The agents are employed by the players and should listen to what they want, unless you sign with Boras and then you know what your getting yourself into.

dickallen15
01-08-2009, 02:41 PM
I have no idea what his conversations were with his agent, but the biggest reason for him to decline would be that he wanted nothing to do with playing here. It also precludes him from getting a multi-year contract, which reportedly was his goal of the offseason. Which he still may get.

The agents are employed by the players and should listen to what they want, unless you sign with Boras and then you know what your getting yourself into.

So you are saying that OC would rather sign a one year contract for $6 million or so or $12 million for 2 years with Oakland maybe, than play for the White Sox for one year at $10 million minimum?

I am of the belief that if OC knew he would be in the situation he is in now, he would have accepted the arb offer and tried again next season after collecting his money in 2009. You would have to figure the Sox wouldn't offer him arb again. Yet another bullet dodged by KW along with Fukudome, trading Garland for Erstad, having the Yankees outbid him for Jared Wright, having Hawk change his mind about AJP, the list goes on and on. Lucky isn't a bad thing to be.

There are quotes in Rosenthal articles from execs who say they would not give up the draft pick unless Cabrera is a rock bottom price.

NorthSideSox72
01-08-2009, 03:07 PM
Players that the White Sox currently have that would be better to start at SS THIS YEAR:

Alexei Ramirez
Brent Lillibridge
Gordon Beckham


And, as far as I know none of them have ever called the press box complaining about calls.

O-Cab was a first class jerk, and his defense was highly overrated. But... you are not seriously saying that Lillibridge and Beckham would be better than O-Cab at shortstop in 2009, are you? Really?

thedudeabides
01-08-2009, 03:10 PM
So you are saying that OC would rather sign a one year contract for $6 million or so or $12 million for 2 years with Oakland maybe, than play for the White Sox for one year at $10 million minimum?

I am of the belief that if OC knew he would be in the situation he is in now, he would have accepted the arb offer and tried again next season after collecting his money in 2009. You would have to figure the Sox wouldn't offer him arb again. Yet another bullet dodged by KW along with Fukudome, trading Garland for Erstad, having the Yankees outbid him for Jared Wright, having Hawk change his mind about AJP, the list goes on and on. Lucky isn't a bad thing to be.

There are quotes in Rosenthal articles from execs who say they would not give up the draft pick unless Cabrera is a rock bottom price.

I have no idea what he would rather have. I know he turned down arbitration, and the reports were because he wanted a multi-year contract and didn't want to play for the Sox.

I'm just saying that you are calling KW and the Sox "dumb" for offering him arbitration, when it looks like they did their homework and new what they were doing. And it worked out in their favor. But, I should be used to people on here being smarter than the Sox management by now.

dickallen15
01-08-2009, 03:14 PM
I have no idea what he would rather have. I know he turned down arbitration, and the reports were because he wanted a multi-year contract and didn't want to play for the Sox.

I'm just saying that you are calling KW and the Sox "dumb" for offering him arbitration, when it looks like they did their homework and new what they were doing. And it worked out in their favor. But, I should be used to people on here being smarter than the Sox management by now.

You must think it isn't dumb to go out, get trashed, and drive home at 100 mph as long as you make it home, don't get into any accidents and don't get pulled over by any cops.

The reason the Sox offered arb was for the draft picks. They didn't want the player. No team is offering him anything near what he would have received. Risking $10 million + for a sandwich pick and what could be a second round pick is beyond dumb under those circumstances, no matter how it eventually turns out.

whitesox901
01-08-2009, 03:16 PM
O-Cab was a first class jerk, and his defense was highly overrated. But... you are not seriously saying that Lillibridge and Beckham would be better than O-Cab at shortstop in 2009, are you? Really?

Agreed, no way in 2009 they can be better at SS then O-Cab

voodoochile
01-08-2009, 03:16 PM
How do you know? Before last season (or, indeed, before last May), did you know that Alexei Ramirez would have a breakout season? How about Carlos Quentin. In March 2008, did you know that Quentin would have a breakout season?

Some posters were highly critical of the White Sox at this time in 2007 precisely because they had not seen Ramirez or Quentin play and did not know what to expect. I remember posting that Quentin was a highly successful minor league player in the Arizona system and had a rough year in 2007 due to injuries.

Like Quentin, Brent Lillibridge was a top prospect in his former team's minor league system. He was injured for part of 2008 and that set him back. To me, he is still a top prospect and could very well break out in 2009.

How is this for a novel idea -- why not wait and see some of these guys play before jumping to conclusions and denigrating them as "7 piles of crap."

Actually, of the two, I'd expect Nix to break out before Lillibridge. Lillibridge never showed much offense in the minors, though he got really rushed after high A-ball from the look of things. Nix got drafted out of HS and took a long time to develop, but in 2008 prior to being called up he was having a great year at AAA in his third run at it (he's still only 25 even though he's been in the minors for 7 years). He showed solid improvement each of those three years too. Neither showed anything when called up to the majors but even Nix's defensive numbers look better than Lillibridge's at 2B.

They've had a combined 140 AB in the majors, so yeah, it's a bit early to call them both busts no matter how much the naysayers want to do so. I mean of course they must suck, they got traded to the Sox...:rolleyes:

NorthSideSox72
01-08-2009, 03:17 PM
Agreed, no way in 2009 they can be better at SS then O-Cab
Well, with Alexi, he MIGHT be. You can at least make a decent argument of it. But Lillibridge? Beckham in 2009? Chances of them approaching O-Cab's value are very, very slim for 2009.

NorthSideSox72
01-08-2009, 03:18 PM
You must think it isn't dumb to go out, get trashed, and drive home at 100 mph as long as you make it home, don't get into any accidents and don't get pulled over by any cops.

The reason the Sox offered arb was for the draft picks. They didn't want the player. No team is offering him anything near what he would have received. Risking $10 million + for a sandwich pick and what could be a second round pick is beyond dumb under those circumstances, no matter how it eventually turns out.

The bridge was so badly burned between the Sox and O-Cab, that I'd imagine it was made 100% clear to the Sox that O-Cab would not want to return. So, they did the smart thing in response to that.

voodoochile
01-08-2009, 03:19 PM
You must think it isn't dumb to go out, get trashed, and drive home at 100 mph as long as you make it home, don't get into any accidents and don't get pulled over by any cops.

The reason the Sox offered arb was for the draft picks. They didn't want the player. No team is offering him anything near what he would have received. Risking $10 million + for a sandwich pick and what could be a second round pick is beyond dumb under those circumstances, no matter how it eventually turns out.

Well of course it is, because you say so...

You know, maybe, just maybe, KW really does know what's going on...

Drive fast, take chances, get there before the accident happens as it were...

doublem23
01-08-2009, 03:19 PM
Players that the White Sox currently have that would be better to start at SS THIS YEAR:

Alexei Ramirez
Brent Lillibridge
Gordon Beckham


And, as far as I know none of them have ever called the press box complaining about calls.

:rolling:

I'm glad you're not running the White Sox.

:rolling:

Look, I don't love OC or am crying about his depature, but I can sure as hell see he'd easily be the 2nd best middle infielder on this team if he were to resign here today.

thedudeabides
01-08-2009, 03:21 PM
You must think it isn't dumb to go out, get trashed, and drive home at 100 mph as long as you make it home, don't get into any accidents and don't get pulled over by any cops.

The reason the Sox offered arb was for the draft picks. They didn't want the player. No team is offering him anything near what he would have received. Risking $10 million + for a sandwich pick and what could be a second round pick is beyond dumb under those circumstances, no matter how it eventually turns out.


What the hell are you talking about?

Sorry, I'll take KW word over yours, but then again I'm just some fool who gets trashed and speeds. I'd continue this discussion, but I have to get in my car and head to the bar.

dickallen15
01-08-2009, 03:24 PM
The bridge was so badly burned between the Sox and O-Cab, that I'd imagine it was made 100% clear to the Sox that O-Cab would not want to return. So, they did the smart thing in response to that.
If OC really hates the White Sox as much as everyone here says, wouldn't it be giving the organization the finger even more by taking the offer and forcing them to budget his money into their 2009 plans especially pretty much knowing this wasn't an ideal time to be a middle of the road free agent?

doublem23
01-08-2009, 03:26 PM
If OC really hates the White Sox as much as everyone here says, wouldn't it be giving the organization the finger even more by taking the offer and forcing them to budget his money into their 2009 plans especially pretty much knowing this wasn't an ideal time to be a middle of the road free agent?

:scratch:

That doesn't make any sense. If he actually hates it here, he's sticking it to us by voluntarily coming back?

Offering Cabrera abritration was obviously the right decision. You don't let a Type-A free agent walk away for nothing, unless you're the Yankees and just don't give a ****.

dickallen15
01-08-2009, 03:27 PM
What the hell are you talking about?

Sorry, I'll take KW word over yours, but then again I'm just some fool who gets trashed and speeds. I'd continue this discussion, but I have to get in my car and head to the bar.

What I'm talking about is the end doesn't always justify the means. Just because OC was stupid not to accept the arbitration doesn't make it genius to offer it to him. I used the first part as an example of that.

KW word was OC if he accepted arbitration would be a bench player. Apparently he became worried enough he might accept arbitration that he felt it necessary to try to say something publicly on it.

NorthSideSox72
01-08-2009, 03:28 PM
If OC really hates the White Sox as much as everyone here says, wouldn't it be giving the organization the finger even more by taking the offer and forcing them to budget his money into their 2009 plans especially pretty much knowing this wasn't an ideal time to be a middle of the road free agent?
That would put him on a team he hates, possibly playing on the bench or out of position, and ruining his reputation with GM's all over baseball. So, no, that would just be stupid on an epic scale if O-Cab had done that. It would be a career-ruining move.

dickallen15
01-08-2009, 03:29 PM
:scratch:

That doesn't make any sense. If he actually hates it here, he's sticking it to us by voluntarily coming back?

Offering Cabrera abritration was obviously the right decision. You don't let a Type-A free agent walk away for nothing, unless you're the Yankees and just don't give a ****.

If you don't want him, and no other team is going to offer him the money he would get in arbitration, you do. OC and/or his agent obviously had too big an ego to really believe this, and it will wind up costing him millions.

dickallen15
01-08-2009, 03:31 PM
That would put him on a team he hates, possibly playing on the bench or out of position, and ruining his reputation with GM's all over baseball. So, no, that would just be stupid on an epic scale if O-Cab had done that. It would be a career-ruining move.

No it wouldn't. He would have been the starting SS for the White Sox in 2009. If KW actually had him behind guys like Lillibridge and/or Nix it would ruin KW's reputation. He would have made $10 million + for 2009 and the
White Sox wouldn't dare offer him arb again, making him more attractive to teams next season.

voodoochile
01-08-2009, 03:33 PM
This thread is turning hilarious...

nysox35
01-08-2009, 03:34 PM
Agreed, no way in 2009 they can be better at SS then O-Cab

Yeah, that is one of the more delusional posts I've seen in some time.

kittle42
01-08-2009, 03:36 PM
O-Cab

O-Cab

I won't miss this.

whitesox901
01-08-2009, 03:42 PM
I won't miss this.

Can I call you K-42? :D:

chunk
01-08-2009, 03:48 PM
Well of course it is, because you say so...

You know, maybe, just maybe, KW really does know what's going on...

Drive fast, take chances, get there before the accident happens as it were...

Isn't driving fast and taking chances what usually causes the accidents?

Nellie_Fox
01-08-2009, 03:53 PM
Can I call you K-42? :D:Go with "K-For."

whitesox901
01-08-2009, 04:00 PM
Go with "K-For."

I likey, I knew you got that teaching degree for some reason :D:

LoveYourSuit
01-08-2009, 04:13 PM
Why did we trade Javy again?

I was all for trading Javy assuming there was a veteran plan B in line to take his spot, God I hope I was right. Problem is, I don't see anyone left in the FA market who is better than him and a guranteed 200 innings. And trading for one would mean that we are giving up some huge asset from our part.

Javy as a #4 starter is not a problem and IMO would be one of the best #4s of any rotation in baseball. Javy starting game #1 of a playoff series is a problem.

nysox35
01-08-2009, 04:20 PM
I was all for trading Javy assuming there was a veteran plan B in line to take his spot, God I hope I was right. Problem is, I don't see anyone left in the FA market who is better than him and a guranteed 200 innings. And trading for one would mean that we are giving up some huge asset from our part.

Javy as a #4 starter is not a problem and IMO would be one of the best #4s of any rotation in baseball. Javy starting game #1 of a playoff series is a problem.

You're absolutely correct on everything you said. The trade didn't bother me at first and I'm a "trust in Kenny" guy 99% of the time, but now that it's looking more and more like we're getting 2 of Richard/Marquez/Broadway/Poreda/Whoever at 4 and 5, I hate the trade. For as much as people bitch about Javy (and he did royally suck down the stretch and in Game 1 ALDS), he would give you 200 innings and a 4.20 era as the other poster stated. Ack...

voodoochile
01-08-2009, 04:24 PM
Isn't driving fast and taking chances what usually causes the accidents?

Okay, stop. Take your fingers off the keyboard. Now take your neck and tilt your head backwards. Are you looking up? Good. Do you see it? Yep, that's the joke that just went over your head...

2906
01-08-2009, 04:48 PM
I said 7 piles of crap or guys who are not ready. Poorly worded, but seven applies to the total of both, so Fields, Betemit, Lillibridge, Nix, Getz, Viciedo, and Beckham.

I think I know how you'd divide them up but tell me if this is correct:

Not Ready = Getz, Viciedo, Beckham

Piles of Crap = Fields, Betemit, Lillibridge, Nix

whitesox901
01-08-2009, 04:58 PM
I think I know how you'd divide them up but tell me if this is correct:

Not Ready = Getz, Viciedo, Beckham

Piles of Crap = Fields, Betemit, Lillibridge, Nix

I dont think any of them are crap..well Betemit maybe

doublem23
01-08-2009, 05:02 PM
I dont think any of them are crap..well Betemit maybe

In terms of 2009 value, Betemit is probably the best... Which isn't saying much.

He won't be a star, but he's 27 and his career line is .260/.325/.437 and can play all 4 infield positions.

Daver
01-08-2009, 05:06 PM
This thread is turning hilarious...

It turned hilarious with the mention of Alexei Ramirez in CF.

spawn
01-08-2009, 05:07 PM
It turned hilarious with the mention of Alexei Ramirez in CF.
I was waiting for someone to say this. Like throwing Alexei in center was going to cure our ills there.

chunk
01-08-2009, 05:10 PM
In terms of 2009 value, Betemit is probably the best... Which isn't saying much.

He won't be a star, but he's 27 and his career line is .260/.325/.437 and can play all 4 infield positions.

he can play all IF positions, but not very well.

jabrch
01-08-2009, 05:15 PM
Agreed, no way in 2009 they can be better at SS then O-Cab


NO way? I remember hearing how there was no way Floyd and Danks could be better than Garland and Garcia...


Is it likely? Nope.... But "no way"?

whitesox901
01-08-2009, 05:25 PM
NO way? I remember hearing how there was no way Floyd and Danks could be better than Garland and Garcia...


Is it likely? Nope.... But "no way"?

It was a poor choice of words, I didn't realize that TCM was on that list, he will be a better SS then O-Cab in 2009 IMO, but your right, "Unlikely" is better suited for Getz & Lillibridge

kittle42
01-08-2009, 05:38 PM
It turned hilarious with the mention of Alexei Ramirez in CF.

I hear Fields can play LF, too.

doublem23
01-08-2009, 05:48 PM
I hear Fields can play LF, too.

If Carlos Lee can make the trek from 3B to LF, anybody can.

Rocky Soprano
01-08-2009, 05:49 PM
I hear Fields can play LF, too.

Yup, almost as good as he plays 3rd!

whitesox901
01-08-2009, 05:50 PM
I hear Fields can play LF, too.

Might as well put Viciedo in RF out there with Fields, and TCM. Best OF ever IMO

Craig Grebeck
01-08-2009, 05:56 PM
How do you know? Before last season (or, indeed, before last May), did you know that Alexei Ramirez would have a breakout season? How about Carlos Quentin. In March 2008, did you know that Quentin would have a breakout season?

Some posters were highly critical of the White Sox at this time in 2007 precisely because they had not seen Ramirez or Quentin play and did not know what to expect. I remember posting that Quentin was a highly successful minor league player in the Arizona system and had a rough year in 2007 due to injuries.

Like Quentin, Brent Lillibridge was a top prospect in his former team's minor league system. He was injured for part of 2008 and that set him back. To me, he is still a top prospect and could very well break out in 2009.

How is this for a novel idea -- why not wait and see some of these guys play before jumping to conclusions and denigrating them as "7 piles of crap."
Lillibridge sucks. True story. If you don't believe me, look up his numbers. If you still think he's comparable to Quentin, throw your computer against the wall.

It turned hilarious with the mention of Alexei Ramirez in CF.

Come on Daver. Ramirez was pretty mediocre at 2b and I'm not exactly thrilled with what he'll do at SS.

Daver
01-08-2009, 06:02 PM
Come on Daver. Ramirez was pretty mediocre at 2b and I'm not exactly thrilled with what he'll do at SS.

And he's worse than mediocre in CF.

Craig Grebeck
01-08-2009, 06:05 PM
And he's worse than mediocre in CF.
He played 63 innings in CF. I'm not convinced that's a meaningful timeframe. While he played less at SS, his time at 2B was pretty uninspiring. The point is, I'd rather put a good defender (Cabrera) at SS. Ideally, Anderson could play CF, but then the left side of the infield is still terrible. I guess we're just hamstrung defensively.

Daver
01-08-2009, 06:41 PM
He played 63 innings in CF. I'm not convinced that's a meaningful timeframe. While he played less at SS, his time at 2B was pretty uninspiring. The point is, I'd rather put a good defender (Cabrera) at SS. Ideally, Anderson could play CF, but then the left side of the infield is still terrible. I guess we're just hamstrung defensively.

I fully expect Dewayne Wise to be the opening day starting center fielder, and I hope all the starting pitchers magically become SO pitchers.

cards press box
01-08-2009, 06:43 PM
Lillibridge sucks. True story. If you don't believe me, look up his numbers. If you still think he's comparable to Quentin, throw your computer against the wall.

Why? Because I won't jump to definitive conclusions about players before I have seen them play? No thanks.

As a matter of fact, I reviewed Lillibridge's minor league stats. In 2006, at two stops in A ball, he hit .305 with 13 HR, 71 RBI and 53 SB. In 2007, at stops in AA and AAA, he hit .282 with 13 HR, 58 RBI and 42 SB. His stats from 2006 and 2007 are impressive and he is supposed to be a good defensive player. It's true that Lillibridge had an offseason in 2008 but that's precisely my point -- young players go throw growing pains and one off season doesn't necessarily mean anything. Gavin Floyd had his ups and downs (and more than his share of criticism from some posters on this board) and he did just fine last year.

So, no thank you, I'll wait to watch Lillibridge play and make up my own mind on whether he is a good player.

whitesox901
01-08-2009, 06:49 PM
I fully expect Dewayne Wise to be the opening day starting center fielder, and I hope all the starting pitchers magically become SO pitchers.

Whats the chance that if he starts in CF over Owens, that he will lead off?

russ99
01-08-2009, 06:56 PM
Whats the chance that if he starts in CF over Owens, that he will lead off?

Considering Wise batted in the leadoff spot for a decent majority of the stretch drive, and I think at least one playoff game, I'd certainly consider it as a possibility.

And Ozzie's already been quoted that if Getz makes the club, he's not batting leadoff right away.

So our options right now are still Wise or Owens - and possibly (but not likely) Lillibridge. Hopefully we have at least one more option before the end of February, maybe O. Hudson? O-Hud anyone? :rolleyes:

cards press box
01-08-2009, 06:56 PM
I fully expect Dewayne Wise to be the opening day starting center fielder, and I hope all the starting pitchers magically become SO pitchers.

On this roster, I expect Anderson to start in CF and bat 9th. The question then becomes who will bat #1 and #2 for the Sox? If Lillibridge wins the 2B job and hits well in spring training, he might be the leadoff man due to his speed.

I still suspect that the Sox are not done dealing and the current roster will not be the opening day roster.

sox1970
01-08-2009, 07:07 PM
I fully expect Dewayne Wise to be the opening day starting center fielder, and I hope all the starting pitchers magically become SO pitchers.

As of now, I don't think Wise will be on the opening day roster. Assuming four on the bench and Owens in CF (again, as of now), they probably have Lillibridge, Anderson, Betemit, and the backup catcher on the bench.

Craig Grebeck
01-08-2009, 07:42 PM
Why? Because I won't jump to definitive conclusions about players before I have seen them play? No thanks.

As a matter of fact, I reviewed Lillibridge's minor league stats. In 2006, at two stops in A ball, he hit .305 with 13 HR, 71 RBI and 53 SB. In 2007, at stops in AA and AAA, he hit .282 with 13 HR, 58 RBI and 42 SB. His stats from 2006 and 2007 are impressive and he is supposed to be a good defensive player. It's true that Lillibridge had an offseason in 2008 but that's precisely my point -- young players go throw growing pains and one off season doesn't necessarily mean anything. Gavin Floyd had his ups and downs (and more than his share of criticism from some posters on this board) and he did just fine last year.

So, no thank you, I'll wait to watch Lillibridge play and make up my own mind on whether he is a good player.
What drove most of Lillibridge's good play was his absurdly good plate discipline. In the jump from A+ to AA (which is arguably the biggest leap in terms of competition, and indicative of a player's true ability) he lost most of his plate discipline and became fairly mediocre. In 2008, it was more of the same.

Mostly, I disagree with the sentiment that every single minor leaguer that has experienced some success coupled with bottoming out should be compared to Quentin. Carlos never, ever had a bad year in the minor leagues. In fact, his major league debut was pretty good, and it was easy to figure out why he sucked in 2007. It's a silly comparison, as Lillibridge was never on the same plane as Carlos.

Daver
01-08-2009, 07:51 PM
As of now, I don't think Wise will be on the opening day roster. Assuming four on the bench and Owens in CF (again, as of now), they probably have Lillibridge, Anderson, Betemit, and the backup catcher on the bench.

I doubt they waive Wise after ST when they just signed him, and he can't be sent to the minors without clearing waivers, whereas Owens and Anderson can. The fact that Owens was never brought up last year tells me the Sox don't have any expectations for him.

sox1970
01-08-2009, 08:02 PM
I doubt they waive Wise after ST when they just signed him, and he can't be sent to the minors without clearing waivers, whereas Owens and Anderson can. The fact that Owens was never brought up last year tells me the Sox don't have any expectations for him.

Somebody has to leadoff. Owens was injured a good portion of last season, so who knows if they truly think of him as a viable option. I hope they can find a better option than Owens, but as of now I don't know who else it can be.

It won't be Wise, as he is old and a true role player. Let's put it this way--if Wise is leading off and playing CF on opening day, something went really wrong this offseason.

As far as his contract, I don't think he's making much over the minimum, so a release, trade, waiver isn't out the question.

Craig Grebeck
01-08-2009, 08:09 PM
Somebody has to leadoff. Owens was injured a good portion of last season, so who knows if they truly think of him as a viable option. I hope they can find a better option than Owens, but as of now I don't know who else it can be.

It won't be Wise, as he is old and a true role player. Let's put it this way--if Wise is leading off and playing CF on opening day, something went really wrong this offseason.

As far as his contract, I don't think he's making much over the minimum, so a release, trade, waiver isn't out the question.
It's telling that they didn't just let him walk. He's clearly in their plans.

cards press box
01-08-2009, 08:22 PM
It's a silly comparison, as Lillibridge was never on the same plane as Carlos.

I am not saying nor did I ever say that Quentin and Lillibridge were comparable players. They play different positions and have different skills. I am only saying that some posters here can't write Lillibridge off fast enough and, similarly, some posters about a year ago couldn't write off Gavin Floyd fast enough and could not abide anyone -- like me -- suggesting that Carlos Quentin might ending up filing the role the Sox had envisioned for Kouske Fukodome. I remember some poster going ballistic at the concept of comparing Quentin's minor league numbers to Fukodome's numbers in Japan. Quite frankly, it now looks silly for anyone to compare Fukodome to Quentin.

Know what is really silly -- coming to definitive judgments on prospects before seeing them play. So, as I said before (and as I said in the past about Gavin Floyd), I prefer to wait for spring training to make my own judgment on whether Lillibridge is a good player.

LoveYourSuit
01-08-2009, 08:23 PM
Lillibridge sucks. True story. If you don't believe me, look up his numbers. If you still think he's comparable to Quentin, throw your computer against the wall.


Come on Daver. Ramirez was pretty mediocre at 2b and I'm not exactly thrilled with what he'll do at SS.

Are you serious?


For a guy who never played that position, he was a very damn good 2B to me.

Jurr
01-08-2009, 09:10 PM
Lillibridge sucks. True story. If you don't believe me, look up his numbers. If you still think he's comparable to Quentin, throw your computer against the wall.


Come on Daver. Ramirez was pretty mediocre at 2b and I'm not exactly thrilled with what he'll do at SS.
....and here we are. Ladies and gentlemen, this person has officially doomed any further opinion he may have to the realm of hogwash, poppycock, and flim-flammery. Wooden nickels fly from his fingertips.

Here's a tip: WATCH baseball instead of deciphering it from the confines of a stat book.

Daver
01-08-2009, 09:17 PM
Here's a tip: WATCH baseball instead of deciphering it from the confines of a stat book.

Too much of a time commitment.

johnnyg83
01-08-2009, 09:39 PM
....and here we are. Ladies and gentlemen, this person has officially doomed any further opinion he may have to the realm of hogwash, poppycock, and flim-flammery. Wooden nickels fly from his fingertips.

Here's a tip: WATCH baseball instead of deciphering it from the confines of a stat book.

I second that emotion. #10 Made some amazing plays at 2b, botched some routine ones ... Cabrera made few spectacular plays and botched a hell of a lot of routine ones. Then called the press box to complain.

2906
01-08-2009, 10:09 PM
Know what is really silly -- coming to definitive judgments on prospects before seeing them play. So, as I said before (and as I said in the past about Gavin Floyd), I prefer to wait for spring training to make my own judgment on whether Lillibridge is a good player.

Good for you and I agree with you. Many many times, young players are up and down for a few years. This will be a test of White Sox pro scouting. They obviously like this guy and think he can bounce back and contribute.

Someone today said there's nothing wrong with KW being lucky. There's also nothing wrong with buying low. Flowers was the key to the deal and Atlanta had clearly soured on Lillibridge or at least were obviously willing to include him in a deal.

So you are right, it's best to wait and see how the guy performs before declaring him "trash" or "he sucks". But this is a message board, and those type of posts will happen.

Now ... maybe Lillibridge does suck and maybe he is trash ... but I have at least a little faith in Williams and his staff and I am willing to give these players a chance. Yes, their scouting has been wrong before but they've also been right and in a big way. So let's see what happens, although I think making such a statement will fall on deaf ears because so many people just "know", they are apparently clairvoyant and they'll let you know long and loud if they're right. Ah well.

voodoochile
01-08-2009, 10:22 PM
On this roster, I expect Anderson to start in CF and bat 9th. The question then becomes who will bat #1 and #2 for the Sox? If Lillibridge wins the 2B job and hits well in spring training, he might be the leadoff man due to his speed.

I still suspect that the Sox are not done dealing and the current roster will not be the opening day roster.

It'll be a platoon based on the current makeup. I'd bet good money on that fact. Ozzie already came out and said JO would be the starter on opening day but that's because of the opponent's expected starter.

whitesox901
01-09-2009, 12:23 AM
Considering Wise batted in the leadoff spot for a decent majority of the stretch drive, and I think at least one playoff game, I'd certainly consider it as a possibility.

And Ozzie's already been quoted that if Getz makes the club, he's not batting leadoff right away.

So our options right now are still Wise or Owens - and possibly (but not likely) Lillibridge. Hopefully we have at least one more option before the end of February, maybe O. Hudson? O-Hud anyone? :rolleyes:

Ah okay! Thanks for the input!

Lillian
01-09-2009, 08:21 AM
Some of you might find this perspective on Lillibridge of interest:

http://www.braves-nation.com/forums/showthread.php?t=8836

CashMan
01-09-2009, 08:27 AM
Good for you and I agree with you. Many many times, young players are up and down for a few years. This will be a test of White Sox pro scouting. They obviously like this guy and think he can bounce back and contribute.

Someone today said there's nothing wrong with KW being lucky. There's also nothing wrong with buying low. Flowers was the key to the deal and Atlanta had clearly soured on Lillibridge or at least were obviously willing to include him in a deal.

So you are right, it's best to wait and see how the guy performs before declaring him "trash" or "he sucks". But this is a message board, and those type of posts will happen.

Now ... maybe Lillibridge does suck and maybe he is trash ... but I have at least a little faith in Williams and his staff and I am willing to give these players a chance. Yes, their scouting has been wrong before but they've also been right and in a big way. So let's see what happens, although I think making such a statement will fall on deaf ears because so many people just "know", they are apparently clairvoyant and they'll let you know long and loud if they're right. Ah well.


From what I have read, Lillibridge sounds like a leadoff hitter who can steal bases. Something we haven't had since the 1st half of 2005.

russ99
01-09-2009, 08:33 AM
Good for you and I agree with you. Many many times, young players are up and down for a few years. This will be a test of White Sox pro scouting.

Without further additions, this season is a massive test of Sox scouting, since they're filling 3 lineup spots, 2 rotation spots and at least on bullpen spot with either guys they acquired this season, or players in the system, none of which has played more than one full MLB season.

I'll withhold judgment until we see how it pans out, but they're really working without a safety net or backup plan, and considering the failures of Sox scouting in the recent past, it doesn't make me too optimistic.

Hopefully Kenny does add a pitcher (or two) and an outfielder before Spring Training, as he's alluded to.

Craig Grebeck
01-09-2009, 09:33 AM
....and here we are. Ladies and gentlemen, this person has officially doomed any further opinion he may have to the realm of hogwash, poppycock, and flim-flammery. Wooden nickels fly from his fingertips.

Here's a tip: WATCH baseball instead of deciphering it from the confines of a stat book.
Oh, please. He moved to his left like his legs were in cement. He made some spectacular plays, but that's not the whole story.

veeter
01-09-2009, 10:39 AM
Oh, please. He moved to his left like his legs were in cement. He made some spectacular plays, but that's not the whole story.I didn't see that. The guy has unbelievable range on pop ups, to his LEFT or right. Yes, he makes the spectacular play, but also the routine ones. His weakness to me, is sometimes he's unaware of what's happening behind him when he goes out for a relay. He then hesitates before firing to the correct base. That can be corrected however. But I guess we'll see him at short this year and beyond.

NLaloosh
01-09-2009, 11:22 AM
Wow. 104 posts. I never imagined we would all get this bored.

Tragg
01-09-2009, 11:40 AM
Edit: the A's pick is protected.
Can someone explain how that works? We lost picks when we signed players after a 72 win season.

Tragg
01-09-2009, 11:45 AM
I fully expect Dewayne Wise to be the opening day starting center fielder, and I hope all the starting pitchers magically become SO pitchers.
Can't wait for more of that .293 OBP (career obp of .254).
I couldn't believe we actually signed him - well, yes I could.

2906
01-09-2009, 11:46 AM
Can someone explain how that works? We lost picks when we signed players after a 72 win season.

The A's 1st round pick is proteceted because of where they finished.

The White Sox gave up a 2nd round pick when they signed Linebrink.

Tragg
01-09-2009, 11:53 AM
The A's 1st round pick is proteceted because of where they finished.

The White Sox gave up a 2nd round pick when they signed Linebrink.
Thanks - linebrink was a class A?

Sargeant79
01-09-2009, 12:05 PM
Thanks - linebrink was a class A?

Yes. And just like the A's this year, our first round pick was protected last year because the Sox were so bad in 2007.

I believe the cutoff is at or around pick 15 in the first round. If you sign a Type A free agent and your draft pick is in the first 15, you only surrender your second rounder and the team that lost the player gets a supplemental pick as well. If your pick is in the latter half of the first round, your forfeit that pick instead and (I believe) the other team still gets the supplemental pick.

DirtySox
01-14-2009, 11:09 PM
Marlins showing interest in Cabrera?

http://www.mlbtraderumors.com/2009/01/marlins-showing.html

They have the 18th pick for what its worth, which isn't protected.

cws05champ
01-15-2009, 01:02 AM
Marlins showing interest in Cabrera?

http://www.mlbtraderumors.com/2009/01/marlins-showing.html

They have the 18th pick for what its worth, which isn't protected.

That would be Ideal!! It would be really nice to have an 18 and a mid 20's pick in the same draft.

dickallen15
01-15-2009, 06:56 AM
Marlins showing interest in Cabrera?

http://www.mlbtraderumors.com/2009/01/marlins-showing.html

They have the 18th pick for what its worth, which isn't protected.

Not a chance of that happening. They trade away players because they are arb eligible. They aren't going to sign Cabrera and give up a draft pick. The guy blogged that saying there is no interest in Hall, yet he signed a minor league contract with Houston yesterday.

soltrain21
01-15-2009, 11:15 AM
It'll be a platoon based on the current makeup. I'd bet good money on that fact. Ozzie already came out and said JO would be the starter on opening day but that's because of the opponent's expected starter.

Platooning a lead off man is a terrible idea. Who leads off when Owens is on the bench and Anderson is playing?

Do you have a platoon at second base and let one of them lead off?

getonbckthr
01-15-2009, 12:55 PM
I figure a team with a protected pick will sign him with hopes of either trading him mid-season or acquiring a 1st round pick next season.

DirtySox
02-03-2009, 11:42 AM
http://www.fannation.com/si_blogs/hot_stove/posts/46942

More sources suggesting OC might be going to Oakland.

While it's not the best case scenario in regards to pick position, any compensation is alright with me. Especially with all this hearsay of free agents possibly sitting out until after the draft to null the compensation system.

Gammons Peter
02-05-2009, 01:20 PM
There is no interest in this bum and I can't see him accepting a 1 year lowball offer. I'm starting to think that the Sox wont get any picks because he's just going to wait until June to sign.

NLaloosh
02-05-2009, 02:49 PM
I would find it hard to believe that any of these players but especially an Orlando Cabrera will sit until May. None of them have anything guaranteed then, either. Plus, Cabrera would be going nuts not playing until then.

KyWhiSoxFan
02-05-2009, 05:24 PM
He would be stupid not to sign something since he declined arbitration. I don't see him sitting out till June. He would be missing two months of pay.

jabrch
02-05-2009, 05:29 PM
He would be stupid not to sign something since he declined arbitration. I don't see him sitting out till June. He would be missing two months of pay.

Well...if he sits out, and some competitive team has an injury to a SS, he suddenly has a ton of leverage. If he signs, cheaply, he may get two extra months of pay, but he may lose the chance to negotiate when he has leverage.

DirtySox
02-05-2009, 05:47 PM
For those worried about losing a draft pick for a player sitting out until June, Larry over at Southsidesox posted the following:

"Just to note, I'm not sure that It's entirely clear that waiting until after the June draft will cause a team that signs Cabrera to keep draft choices. The CBA doesn't squarely address the scenario (probably because it wasn't contemplated) and if I were representing a club I would have more than enough ammunition to assert that the club should give up a pick in the following year. You can almost certainly bet that the White Sox (or another team) would use the ambiguity in the CBA on this topic to make such an argument. One could certainly envision a scenario where, at the very least, it is agreed that the White Sox would get 1 or more picks (perhaps not at the direct expense of the signing club) in the 2010 draft, especially since it is possible at this point to envision multiple clubs being in this situation.

Iwould also bet that MLB would provide clarity on this issue before it actually occurred."

DirtySox
02-08-2009, 10:59 AM
A's are expected to start discussions with Orlando Cabrera This Week (http://www.sfgate.com/cgi-bin/article.cgi?f=/c/a/2009/02/08/SPEV15PL1V.DTL&feed=rss.athletics)

palehozenychicty
02-08-2009, 04:17 PM
How do you know? Before last season (or, indeed, before last May), did you know that Alexei Ramirez would have a breakout season? How about Carlos Quentin. In March 2008, did you know that Quentin would have a breakout season?

Some posters were highly critical of the White Sox at this time in 2007 precisely because they had not seen Ramirez or Quentin play and did not know what to expect. I remember posting that Quentin was a highly successful minor league player in the Arizona system and had a rough year in 2007 due to injuries.

Like Quentin, Brent Lillibridge was a top prospect in his former team's minor league system. He was injured for part of 2008 and that set him back. To me, he is still a top prospect and could very well break out in 2009.

How is this for a novel idea -- why not wait and see some of these guys play before jumping to conclusions and denigrating them as "7 piles of crap."


Because then this message board wouldn't need to exist. :tongue:

DirtySox
02-17-2009, 10:18 AM
OC Update (http://msn.foxsports.com/mlb/story/9230332/Hudson-interested-in-K.C.,-but-is-the-feeling-mutual?%3FCMP=OTC-K9B140813162&ATT=49)

OC continues to ask the Athletics for more money than they are willing to offer. The A's don't have a problem giving up draft picks if the price is right.

skobabe8
02-17-2009, 10:43 AM
OC Update (http://msn.foxsports.com/mlb/story/9230332/Hudson-interested-in-K.C.,-but-is-the-feeling-mutual?%3FCMP=OTC-K9B140813162&ATT=49)

OC continues to ask the Athletics for more money than they are willing to offer. The A's don't have a problem giving up draft picks if the price is right.

Interesting stuff about Hudson as well. The Royals could cut Teahen to sign Hudson. I wouldnt mind to pick up a Sox killer like that for cheap. Plays alot of positions, including 3B. Decent to good hitter.

Marqhead
02-17-2009, 10:44 AM
Interesting stuff about Hudson as well. The Royals could cut Teahen to sign Hudson. I wouldnt mind to pick up a Sox killer like that for cheap. Plays alot of positions, including 3B. Decent to good hitter.

I'll be glad if he's off their team, but no more Royals! Please!

DirtySox
02-20-2009, 11:39 AM
Dodgers Shows Interest in OCab (http://mlb.mlb.com/news/article.jsp?ymd=20090220&content_id=3854908&vkey=news_mlb&fext=.jsp&c_id=mlb&partnerId=rss_mlb)

Cabrera signing with LA would be the best possible scenario for the White Sox, as the Dodgers have the 17th pick which is the lowest unprotected pick.

*Crosses Fingers*

thedudeabides
02-20-2009, 11:40 AM
Dodgers again talking to Cabrera. Sounds like it's going to be him or Hudson for 2b.


http://mlb.mlb.com/news/article.jsp?ymd=20090220&content_id=3854908&vkey=news_mlb&fext=.jsp&c_id=mlb&partnerId=rss_mlb

DirtySox
02-20-2009, 02:55 PM
Dodgers signed (http://www.mlbtraderumors.com/2009/02/dodgers-sign-or.html) Hudson. :(:

Seems it was a leverage move to use OC.

thedudeabides
02-20-2009, 03:46 PM
I guess that Cabrera going to the Dodgers was too good to be true. I thought he might have made some sense because of Furcal's injury trouble.

Gammons Peter
03-01-2009, 07:04 PM
MLBTR is talking about a sign and trade with the Jays

Daver
03-01-2009, 07:50 PM
MLBTR is talking about a sign and trade with the Jays

There is no such thing, a signed player can't be traded until June 15th.

KRS1
03-01-2009, 07:55 PM
There is no such thing, a signed player can't be traded until June 15th.

I've read some article about an exemption to this for at least the 09's season. Something about a player being able to waive his rights to the standard no trade clause written into every contract.

DirtySox
03-01-2009, 08:02 PM
http://www.theglobeandmail.com/servlet/story/RTGAM.20090301.WBunwrittenrules20090301133350/WBStory/WBunwrittenrules

Talks about it in that article. Evidently a player can sign a letter of consent allowing his contract to be assigned.

Gammons Peter
03-01-2009, 08:08 PM
There is no such thing, a signed player can't be traded until June 15th.


It's a way for a team to get out of losing draft picks. They would offer the Sox something other than a first round pick

Frater Perdurabo
03-01-2009, 08:24 PM
It's a way for a team to get out of losing draft picks. They would offer the Sox something other than a first round pick

Roy Halladay?

Daver
03-01-2009, 08:51 PM
http://www.theglobeandmail.com/servlet/story/RTGAM.20090301.WBunwrittenrules20090301133350/WBStory/WBunwrittenrules

Talks about it in that article. Evidently a player can sign a letter of consent allowing his contract to be assigned.

It's a way for a team to get out of losing draft picks. They would offer the Sox something other than a first round pick


A player can't arbitrarily exempt himself from a collectively bargained agreement, and neither can a team for that matter, without permission from both the MLBPA and the commisioner of baseball.

cards press box
03-01-2009, 09:11 PM
A player can't arbitrarily exempt himself from a collectively bargained agreement, and neither can a team for that matter, without permission from both the MLBPA and the commisioner of baseball.

I heard that the union and the commissioner's office were discussing an exemption from the CBA that would allow "sign and trades" of Type A free agents like Orlando Cabrera and Juan Cruz. The Twins and Diamondbacks were discussing a possible sign and trade of Cruz but it fell through.

pearso66
03-01-2009, 09:23 PM
This was basically the basis for my question the other day. If the Sox aren't going to get anything of value for Cabrera, why do it? He can sit out for all I care, the A's want him, but he's asking for more and more money, like Manny.

Daver
03-01-2009, 09:30 PM
I heard that the union and the commissioner's office were discussing an exemption from the CBA that would allow "sign and trades" of Type A free agents like Orlando Cabrera and Juan Cruz. The Twins and Diamondbacks were discussing a possible sign and trade of Cruz but it fell through.

It may well be possible that it will happen when the next CBA is negotiated in four years, but as of right now it can't be done.

Sargeant79
03-02-2009, 08:39 AM
It may well be possible that it will happen when the next CBA is negotiated in four years, but as of right now it can't be done.

Did I miss something? I realize it's not part of the CBA right now, but didn't the union and MLB work something out for some provision to be made this year for certain type A free agents who are job hunting (thinking about the Juan Cruz situation in particular)? Or am I just not remembering the news correctly?

oeo
03-02-2009, 10:18 AM
It's a way for a team to get out of losing draft picks. They would offer the Sox something other than a first round pick

I really doubt something like this would happen. The Sox still have no bargaining power.

And it's kind of like the big four team trade that never happens. Too many things have to be perfect in order for it to work.

dickallen15
03-02-2009, 11:03 AM
Did I miss something? I realize it's not part of the CBA right now, but didn't the union and MLB work something out for some provision to be made this year for certain type A free agents who are job hunting (thinking about the Juan Cruz situation in particular)? Or am I just not remembering the news correctly?

You can trade recently signedf ree agents with their permission. The issue is having this all worked out before they sign. I don't know if the league has OK'ed it yet, but I don't see what would keep them from doing so.

soxfan43
03-02-2009, 11:26 AM
You can trade recently signedf ree agents with their permission. The issue is having this all worked out before they sign. I don't know if the league has OK'ed it yet, but I don't see what would keep them from doing so.

Rosenthal reported the Union would ok deals like this. Not sure about MLB though.

NLaloosh
03-02-2009, 12:29 PM
I doubt that the 2 sides would waste time talking about it if it weren't possible to do the deal.

Randar68
03-02-2009, 12:34 PM
Let's see... 1 of those guys is a competent Major League infielder.
2 of those guys are probably not ready to play in the MLB in 2009.
1 of those guys is young and unproven, but probably isn't starting material
1 of those guys is, at best, a supersub on a good team
3 of those guys totally suck.

Not sure how you figure that, but:

Fields played on one leg for most of last year and while he is not Crede at 3rd, he's also better than a Troy Glaus. He will be a good starting 3rd baseman for a long time. Judging his play based on last year is folly and the kid is a workhorse and gamer on top of it. Not sure why you think he's not ready to play. If he isn't ready now he never will be.

Ramirez is obviously ready and played great at SS in the limited looks we had last year.

As for the rest? They are all pretty much unproven except Nix... and he is mediocre. I wish one of those second base prospects was a prototype leadoff hitter, but I also wish I was rich.

Any team is going to have holes, but 2nd base is about the least of my worries with all the people they have battling for that spot. Someone will be a decent contributor and hit better than Juan Uribe, so isn't that a basic upgrade?

soxfan13
03-02-2009, 02:16 PM
There is no such thing, a signed player can't be traded until June 15th.

A player can't arbitrarily exempt himself from a collectively bargained agreement, and neither can a team for that matter, without permission from both the MLBPA and the commisioner of baseball.

It may well be possible that it will happen when the next CBA is negotiated in four years, but as of right now it can't be done.

Here you go pumpkin, looks like you can be wrong every now and then

http://mlb.mlb.com/news/print.jsp?ymd=20090218&content_id=3843216&vkey=news_mlb&fext=.jsp&c_id=mlb&affiliateId=CommentWidget

guillensdisciple
03-02-2009, 02:30 PM
Now that Cabrera has been signed, what draft pick do the White Sox receive?

KenBerryGrab
03-02-2009, 02:31 PM
Now that Cabrera has been signed, what draft pick do the White Sox receive?

The Sox would get the A's second-round pick.

getonbckthr
03-02-2009, 02:32 PM
The Sox would get the A's second-round pick.
And a sandwich pick. Whoooo hooo. Thanks Beane. Enjoy that worthless scum.

guillensdisciple
03-02-2009, 02:34 PM
The Sox would get the A's second-round pick.


Thank you.

DumpJerry
03-02-2009, 02:39 PM
Continue discussion here (http://www.whitesoxinteractive.com/vbulletin/showthread.php?t=109794).