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View Full Version : When gnashing your teeth over the Sox off-season moves....


DumpJerry
01-04-2009, 09:23 AM
....review this thread (http://www.whitesoxinteractive.com/vbulletin/showthread.php?t=82009) and how people reacted to a certain trade two years ago.

In Kenny we trust.

Remember, Kenny and Co. have access to information about the players we don't have (inside information from scouts, medical reports). All we really have, especially when it comes to prospects with no or little time in The Show are (worthless) stats. Stats are worthless because, like investments, past performance is no indicator of future performance. Players change year-to-year as they mature or are exposed to different coaches' eyes.

EnglishChiSox
01-04-2009, 09:42 AM
Well said, I believe that Kenny can put a competitive team out on the field at the start of the season, there is noone else i'd want as GM of the Sox.

ChicagoHoosier
01-04-2009, 10:02 AM
I believe history tells us that Kenny seems to know when to deal a pitcher.

Freddy and McCarthy are two very good examples. Not sure if the Sirotka deal was on Kenny's watch, but got him out in the nick of time as well.

In Kenny I Trust.

soxpride724
01-04-2009, 10:12 AM
I have never second guessed man.:cool:

Frontman
01-04-2009, 10:43 AM
There are times I can't understand a trade; and some don't pan out, but one thing that has gotten under my skin recently is the aggravated Sox fans.

Relax my fellow Palehose supporters. The Sox will do the best that they can to put forth a winning team. I for one take and appreciate that the Sox don't do the "buy a player" approach to baseball, because it more often than not does not work. Look at the Yankees of this decade; and look at what the Cubs have done in the past 5 years. A ton of money for talent, no rings to show for it.

Heck, the big signing of last season for the Cubs MIGHT NOT EVEN MAKE THE MLB ROSTER.

Now, think about that. If that happened to the Sox; I would be royally POed that they invested THAT type of money ON HYPE.

But this ugly headed jealousy/rage drives me crazy. Kenny and Ozzie brought us a championship, and took the team into the playoffs two out of five seasons. To me; batting .400 on playoff appearances is a good thing.

DumpJerry
01-04-2009, 10:55 AM
There are times I can't understand a trade; and some don't pan out, but one thing that has gotten under my skin recently is the aggravated Sox fans.

Relax my fellow Palehose supporters. The Sox will do the best that they can to put forth a winning team. I for one take and appreciate that the Sox don't do the "buy a player" approach to baseball, because it more often than not does not work. Look at the Yankees of this decade; and look at what the Cubs have done in the past 5 years. A ton of money for talent, no rings to show for it.

Heck, the big signing of last season for the Cubs MIGHT NOT EVEN MAKE THE MLB ROSTER.

Now, think about that. If that happened to the Sox; I would be royally POed that they invested THAT type of money ON HYPE.

But this ugly headed jealousy/rage drives me crazy. Kenny and Ozzie brought us a championship, and took the team into the playoffs two out of five seasons. To me; batting .400 on playoff appearances is a good thing.
The Fukudome signing cracks me up. First of all, certain WSI posters attack Kenny for "losing" despite the granite-wall fact that Fukudome said he wanted to be the first Japanese player to sign with the team that gets him. This fact alone told me he is the Japanese version of Barry Bonds and Sammy Sosa- it's all about him, not the team.

People also forget the red flags that Royals' Manager Trey Hillman raised about the guy. Hillman was in Japan for many years before joining the Royal's last year and saw Fukudome up close and personal for many years. Hillman said that signing Fukudome had limitations because he had very little range as a Center Fielders despite what the Fukudome people were saying to sell him. Hillman said he was a good hitter, but did not gush about the guy like he was the next Ted Williams.

The Cubs totally bought into the hype. Kenny made the offer to him (which was higher than the Cubs' offer) knowing he would not have to pony up the bucks because Shingo and Iguchi prevented the White Sox from being considered. Botttom line: if we had signed Fukudome, we would not have made the playoffs because he would have been either in LF (instead of TCQ) or CF (where he would have reminded us of Mackowiak). RF was Dye's turf and that was not going to change.

In Kenny we trust.

Stoky44
01-04-2009, 11:12 AM
I have a ton of faith in Kenny. And this off season has done nothing to change that fact. I am really not upset by any of the moves we have made. I think Kenny is in the top 10 of GM's.

That being said, I am not going to say Kenny can do no wrong. He makes mistakes, and at times I will maybe second guess him. However, more often than not he gets it right. But he can get things wrong, and his some times over confidence can bite him in the ass, ala the pen of 2 years ago, which he admitted was his fault and needed to relook at things.

I believe KW is doing great, but he is bound to have a mistake soon or a bad move. I just hope people don't kill him and want him fired when that bad move does come, which it will sooner or later.

dickallen15
01-04-2009, 11:17 AM
Its seems the majority of the second guessers in that thread have been banned. Is KW a moderator here?

oldcomiskey
01-04-2009, 11:18 AM
that is unless he trades Danks for Brian Roberts

Dan Mega
01-04-2009, 11:22 AM
The Fukudome signing cracks me up. First of all, certain WSI posters attack Kenny for "losing" despite the granite-wall fact that Fukudome said he wanted to be the first Japanese player to sign with the team that gets him. This fact alone told me he is the Japanese version of Barry Bonds and Sammy Sosa- it's all about him, not the team.

People also forget the red flags that Royals' Manager Trey Hillman raised about the guy. Hillman was in Japan for many years before joining the Royal's last year and saw Fukudome up close and personal for many years. Hillman said that signing Fukudome had limitations because he had very little range as a Center Fielders despite what the Fukudome people were saying to sell him. Hillman said he was a good hitter, but did not gush about the guy like he was the next Ted Williams.

The Cubs totally bought into the hype. Kenny made the offer to him (which was higher than the Cubs' offer) knowing he would not have to pony up the bucks because Shingo and Iguchi prevented the White Sox from being considered. Botttom line: if we had signed Fukudome, we would not have made the playoffs because he would have been either in LF (instead of TCQ) or CF (where he would have reminded us of Mackowiak). RF was Dye's turf and that was not going to change.

In Kenny we trust.

This is the first time I've heard that Kenny "knew" that Fukudome wouldn't sign because he wouldn't have been the first Japanese player on the Sox.

Dan Mega
01-04-2009, 11:24 AM
Also, Garcia gave us several good years on the Sox, in addition to being a key member of the championship run. Floyd has given us ONE good year. Seems like a few people are counting their eggs before they hatch, which is exactly what this thread seems to be calling out.

dickallen15
01-04-2009, 11:29 AM
The Fukudome signing cracks me up. First of all, certain WSI posters attack Kenny for "losing" despite the granite-wall fact that Fukudome said he wanted to be the first Japanese player to sign with the team that gets him. This fact alone told me he is the Japanese version of Barry Bonds and Sammy Sosa- it's all about him, not the team.

People also forget the red flags that Royals' Manager Trey Hillman raised about the guy. Hillman was in Japan for many years before joining the Royal's last year and saw Fukudome up close and personal for many years. Hillman said that signing Fukudome had limitations because he had very little range as a Center Fielders despite what the Fukudome people were saying to sell him. Hillman said he was a good hitter, but did not gush about the guy like he was the next Ted Williams.

The Cubs totally bought into the hype. Kenny made the offer to him (which was higher than the Cubs' offer) knowing he would not have to pony up the bucks because Shingo and Iguchi prevented the White Sox from being considered. Botttom line: if we had signed Fukudome, we would not have made the playoffs because he would have been either in LF (instead of TCQ) or CF (where he would have reminded us of Mackowiak). RF was Dye's turf and that was not going to change.

In Kenny we trust.

Why would KW risk $50 million making a higher offer than any team for a player even if he knew there was little chance that player would take it? That is one of the craziest things I've ever heard. He's just lucky Fukudome didn't take it.

champagne030
01-04-2009, 11:40 AM
Why would KW risk $50 million making a higher offer than any team for a player even if he knew there was little chance that player would take it? That is one of the craziest things I've ever heard. He's just lucky Fukudome didn't take it.

He was just driving up the signing price for the Cubs.

2906
01-04-2009, 11:40 AM
Its seems the majority of the second guessers in that thread have been banned. Is KW a moderator here?

Maybe it's because knee jerk reactors have short shelf lives.

It sure was an entertaining thread to revisit. Very interesting to see the statements of those who were "sure" Floyd would be garbage ... I wonder if they ever owned up. I doubt it. Just like the guy who posts at another board who said he'd never post again if Floyd won 10 games with an ERA under 5. Not surprisingly, he's still at it. No accountability.

Williams and his group make mistakes and they will make more. They trust in their scouts though and that's what they did with Floyd and I'm sure that's what they've continued to do.

2906
01-04-2009, 11:43 AM
Also, Garcia gave us several good years on the Sox, in addition to being a key member of the championship run. Floyd has given us ONE good year. Seems like a few people are counting their eggs before they hatch, which is exactly what this thread seems to be calling out.

What Garcia gave the Sox has little to do with it. It's about trading players at the right time and there's no doubt they traded Garcia at the right time. Further, it's about identifying players who might not fit with another organization and believing in their talent.

pearso66
01-04-2009, 12:02 PM
I believe history tells us that Kenny seems to know when to deal a pitcher.

Freddy and McCarthy are two very good examples. Not sure if the Sirotka deal was on Kenny's watch, but got him out in the nick of time as well.

In Kenny I Trust.

I'm pretty sure that was Kenny's first trade, although I could be wrong. A lot of people were saying Kenny was trading broken goods after that, but remember, Sirotka passed a physical with Toronto. So maybe Kenny knew he had just enough left to pass?

rdivaldi
01-04-2009, 12:11 PM
Funny to read through that thread and look at all the other players people wanted to acquire. Rocco Baldelli must have been mentioned at least 20 times.

ode to veeck
01-04-2009, 12:15 PM
I believe history tells us that Kenny seems to know when to deal a pitcher.

Freddy and McCarthy are two very good examples. Not sure if the Sirotka deal was on Kenny's watch, but got him out in the nick of time as well.

In Kenny I Trust.

"flash in the pan" Loaiza (right after he nearly won the Cy Young) for the big Cuban curve baller Contreras was one of KW's best

getonbckthr
01-04-2009, 12:46 PM
Funny to read through that thread and look at all the other players people wanted to acquire. Rocco Baldelli must have been mentioned at least 20 times.
I stereotypically nailed my demand for Carl Crawford. Hahaha.

whitesox901
01-04-2009, 01:02 PM
:KW
"If you apologize now, I wont kill you"

soxtalker
01-04-2009, 01:26 PM
I'm pretty sure that was Kenny's first trade, although I could be wrong. A lot of people were saying Kenny was trading broken goods after that, but remember, Sirotka passed a physical with Toronto. So maybe Kenny knew he had just enough left to pass?

Kenny does so many trades -- and often with the same GM's -- that I can't imagine that he'd knowingly trade damaged goods. It might help the Sox on that one trade, but it would ruin his reputation for future trades. I always wondered if part of the Iguchi trade to Philadelphia was an effort by KW to build the relationship with the GM there.

jabrch
01-04-2009, 02:19 PM
Kenny does so many trades -- and often with the same GM's -- that I can't imagine that he'd knowingly trade damaged goods.

I can't imagine any GM would do that. It would be suicide. It's a small fraternity.

Frontman
01-04-2009, 02:20 PM
This is the first time I've heard that Kenny "knew" that Fukudome wouldn't sign because he wouldn't have been the first Japanese player on the Sox.

I've heard that a number of times, including the day he signed with the Cubs. The Sox did offer a nice deal that Fukudome considered; but he wanted to be the first Japanese player for the team.

thomas35forever
01-04-2009, 02:25 PM
Wow, how prophetic, though not completely accurate, I was. I remember my holiday choir concert was that night.
I'm shocked how so many people are calling out KW for this. Coop can work his magic like he did for Cotts and Politte in '05. I guarantee everyone will be sorry for saying this come the regular season. PRINT IT.

champagne030
01-04-2009, 02:38 PM
Heck, the big signing of last season for the Cubs MIGHT NOT EVEN MAKE THE MLB ROSTER.

Now, think about that. If that happened to the Sox; I would be royally POed that they invested THAT type of money ON HYPE.



I've heard that a number of times, including the day he signed with the Cubs. The Sox did offer a nice deal that Fukudome considered; but he wanted to be the first Japanese player for the team.

We wanted Fukudome so bad that we offered more than the Flubs, but that was just to drive up the price they paid? :rolleyes:

kittle42
01-04-2009, 02:47 PM
Whatever. This is just as much hindsight as bashing Williams for trading for Swisher. Almost everyone hated the trade when it was made and for good reason (at the time). GMAB.

Boondock Saint
01-04-2009, 03:42 PM
I have the utmost faith in KW, but that doesn't mean I have to be happy with everything he does. I'm far from confident that this team, as is, can win the division next year.

areilly
01-04-2009, 04:14 PM
Whatever. This is just as much hindsight as bashing Williams for trading for Swisher. Almost everyone hated the trade when it was made and for good reason (at the time). GMAB.

You've obviously forgotten 2005.

soxfan1983
01-04-2009, 04:17 PM
Its seems the majority of the second guessers in that thread have been banned. Is KW a moderator here?


haha i noticed that too. seems like it happens a lot when you look at old threads.

DaveFeelsRight
01-04-2009, 04:30 PM
thats WSI for you.

chisox616
01-04-2009, 04:37 PM
Yeah, reading through that thread, I'm seeing a lot of similarities to the comments being made now. As in, "at least we're looking good 2 years from now" type comments. :(:

Frontman
01-04-2009, 04:51 PM
We wanted Fukudome so bad that we offered more than the Flubs, but that was just to drive up the price they paid? :rolleyes:

My point being is that things work out for a team and sometimes the deals that don't work out are the one's to avoid. Can you imagine how KW would be roasted here had Fukudome signed with the Sox instead of the Cubs?

But, out of all the "top FA" prospects out there this season, do you think any of them are worth the money they have been offered?

I agree with Kenny that some players aren't worth the money. Fukudome was one that was a risk that didn't pay off; yet the cheaper Alexei did.

I just get tired of the green-with-envy nature some Sox fans show. Sure, the Yankees once again spent more money for two players than the Sox will for the rest of their FA pickups combined. That money does not equal out to a championship.

WHILEPITCH
01-04-2009, 05:19 PM
it's a good point about the Garcia trade, but still i dont think anyone is in the wrong to wish that this team would spend more.

it's a major market...fans have come in to support recent winning years, we deserve payback with free agent money going out.


and also we can always demand more competence, as in the acquisition and swift toss away of Swish.

DumpJerry
01-04-2009, 07:19 PM
Also, Garcia gave us several good years on the Sox, in addition to being a key member of the championship run. Floyd has given us ONE good year. Seems like a few people are counting their eggs before they hatch, which is exactly what this thread seems to be calling out.

What Garcia gave the Sox has little to do with it. It's about trading players at the right time and there's no doubt they traded Garcia at the right time. Further, it's about identifying players who might not fit with another organization and believing in their talent.
Dan, read this and the other thread again. What has Garcia done since the trade? Feed the families of many doctors. Are you saying that Garcia would have been more valuable to us than Floyd, even in 2007, despite being on the shelf most of the time?

This is a trade that totally worked out for Kenny. He got a healthy pitcher in exchange for a guy who is not healthy. In addition, the Gonzalez acquisition in the trade led to the Swisher acquisition which led to several acquisitions from the Yankees which may pan out......

rdivaldi
01-04-2009, 08:26 PM
Whatever. This is just as much hindsight as bashing Williams for trading for Swisher. Almost everyone hated the trade when it was made and for good reason (at the time). GMAB.

I don't think the purpose of the thread is to claim past superiority, it's to point out that whining about trades at the time they are made can make you look foolish in the long run.

DumpJerry
01-04-2009, 09:10 PM
I don't think the purpose of the thread is to claim past superiority, it's to point out that whining about trades at the time they are made can make you look foolish in the long run.
Close. It's to show us that Kenny is Da Man.:D:

russ99
01-04-2009, 09:11 PM
The one thing I take from that old thread, is Kenny's right. He did start re-tooling the roster 2 years ago. We just didn't see it then.

Which doesn't mean I've flip-flopped and am all gung-ho on the youth movement... :D:

Pear-Zin-Ski
01-04-2009, 11:28 PM
Also when gnashing your teeth....

NO POLITICS = NO POLITICS

4 points
01-07-2009, 04:03 AM
Why would KW risk $50 million making a higher offer than any team for a player even if he knew there was little chance that player would take it? That is one of the craziest things I've ever heard. He's just lucky Fukudome didn't take it.

Exactly, he was VERY lucky. Some people post absolute trash on this board and expect everyone to buy it.:angry::angry:

4 points
01-07-2009, 04:17 AM
Dan, read this and the other thread again. What has Garcia done since the trade? Feed the families of many doctors. Are you saying that Garcia would have been more valuable to us than Floyd, even in 2007, despite being on the shelf most of the time?

This is a trade that totally worked out for Kenny. He got a healthy pitcher in exchange for a guy who is not healthy. In addition, the Gonzalez acquisition in the trade led to the Swisher acquisition which led to several acquisitions from the Yankees which may pan out......

:D::D::D:had to laugh at the last part here, started to remind me of a thread i read once, the guy was mad that his fellow fans were bashing a certain player trade, well 15 trades, 30 players, and 5 years later they received an all-star in return, but thankfully you did`nt digress to that low.:gulp::gulp::gulp:

DumpJerry
01-07-2009, 07:31 AM
:D::D::D:had to laugh at the last part here, started to remind me of a thread i read once, the guy was mad that his fellow fans were bashing a certain player trade, well 15 trades, 30 players, and 5 years later they received an all-star in return, but thankfully you did`nt digress to that low.:gulp::gulp::gulp:
Was my post too complex for you to understand? Or are you saying that when you have three beers, your typing skills plummet?

rdivaldi
01-07-2009, 07:07 PM
Was my post too complex for you to understand? Or are you saying that when you have three beers, your typing skills plummet?

Looking at some of his other posts, I think it was a lame attempt a comedy.