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View Full Version : Whitesox-O's discussing Floyd for Brian Roberts swap


illini81887
01-02-2009, 06:17 PM
http://masnsports.com/2009/01/roberts-to-the-other-chicago.html

RealFan
01-02-2009, 06:19 PM
Boy I hope this is not true. Not sure about Brian Roberts contract situation but I thought he was in his final year. So we'd be trading a yound pitcher under our control for a few more years for BR who would likely leave at season's end.

JermaineDye05
01-02-2009, 06:20 PM
I hope not, the last thing we need to do is give up more pitching.

JermaineDye05
01-02-2009, 06:22 PM
I hope not, the last thing we need to do is give up more pitching.

<50% chance this trade rumor is true.

IMO

Mr. White Sox
01-02-2009, 06:33 PM
<50% chance this trade rumor is true.

IMO

If they do a trade like this (or something similar), then they must have something else in the works involving trading Dye for pitching. They also would have tremendous confidence in Aaron Poreda and Clayton Richard if they trade away Gavin. Personally, I'm fine with trading Gavin now if it lands someone like Roberts, and I'm sure there are contingencies in place.

But yes, I agree. <50% chance.

Boondock Saint
01-02-2009, 06:37 PM
<50% chance this trade rumor is true.

IMO

Agreed. It would be flat-out stupid to go into the season with a rotation of Buehrle/Danks/?/?/?.

Not only that, but Floyd is a cheap, young starting pitcher on the rise. Roberts, while still good, is a 31 year old 2nd baseman, who can only decline from here. Not only that, but he's also in the last year of his contract. That is not even close to a smart trade.

turners56
01-02-2009, 06:37 PM
I love Brian Roberts, but without Floyd, we'd literally have a 2-man rotation, both whom are lefty.

DaveFeelsRight
01-02-2009, 06:42 PM
as someone already said, it would be dumb just to go into the season with mark and john as two solids in the rotation

Stoky44
01-02-2009, 06:43 PM
God I hope not. Who would be in our rotation.

turners56
01-02-2009, 06:44 PM
If Kenny pulls the trigger on such a deal, he better sign another starter. Seriously, if he does make this deal, I would regret trading Javy.

Boondock Saint
01-02-2009, 06:50 PM
If Kenny pulls the trigger on such a deal, he better sign another starter. Seriously, if he does make this deal, I would regret trading Javy.

Even then, who could the Sox sign now (within reason, financially) that you wouldn't consider a downgrade from Floyd? You also have to take into consideration that we'd be adding ~$7.5m to salary by trading for Roberts.

A. Cavatica
01-02-2009, 06:50 PM
He already better sign another two starters...

veeter
01-02-2009, 06:51 PM
There would, no doubt, be more players involved. Kenny would get some pitching back and would probably send more than just Gavin. Because of Roberts' contract situation, I'll bet Baltimore initiated this. Floyd's great season has validated Kenny's move, so I don't think there's any way he moves him. Plus, like people have said, Gavin is very good, getting better and is cheap. I think it's just rumor.

DaveFeelsRight
01-02-2009, 06:51 PM
He already better sign another two starters...derek lowe and pedro please!

KRS1
01-02-2009, 06:58 PM
Highly doubtful.

soxfan43
01-02-2009, 06:58 PM
If this trade happens I could see Dye for Bailey going down. Then Kenny signing a veteran. Makes the staff sorta weak but this team really needs a leadoff guy and Roberts is solid.

A. Cavatica
01-02-2009, 07:03 PM
Even the idea of this trade terrifies me. We have three starters and three second basemen, so let's trade one of the starters for a second baseman?!?!?

A starter is worth more than a position player, period.

WhiteSox1989
01-02-2009, 07:03 PM
No.

Brian26
01-02-2009, 07:04 PM
http://masnsports.com/2009/01/roberts-to-the-other-chicago.html

Without reading one post in this thread, why would Kenny send our #3 starter who's young, won 17 games and locked up cheap for years to Baltimore for a one-year rental at 2b.

btrain929
01-02-2009, 07:09 PM
Even the idea of this trade terrifies me. We have three starters and three second basemen, so let's trade one of the starters for a second baseman?!?!?

A starter is worth more than a position player, period.

Without reading one post in this thread, why would Kenny send our #3 starter who's young, won 17 games and locked up cheap for years to Baltimore for a one-year rental at 2b.

Exactly. The ONLY way this would make sense (even though it really doesn't no matter which way you look at it) is if we were granted an extension window with Roberts. If no extension is worked out, no trade.

A. Cavatica
01-02-2009, 07:15 PM
Exactly. The ONLY way this would make sense (even though it really doesn't no matter which way you look at it) is if we were granted an extension window with Roberts. If no extension is worked out, no trade.

Even if an extension window is worked out, why extend an expensive, steroid-tainted, 31-year old second baseman when you have multiple cheap alternatives? Does anyone think we could trade Getz, Nix, and Lillibridge to fill the three holes in our starting rotation?

LITTLE NELL
01-02-2009, 07:16 PM
If this trade happens it would not surprise me to see KW sign Jon Garland.

chisoxfan4life
01-02-2009, 07:25 PM
http://masnsports.com/2009/01/roberts-to-the-other-chicago.html

Having Buhrls and Danks as the only 2 established starters is a scary proposition.

Dan Mega
01-02-2009, 07:37 PM
This doesn't make sense as 1)KW hasn't coveted Roberts for a long time and 2)even if he did, Roberts isn't 4 years past his prime yet.

No way this happens. No chance.

johnnyg83
01-02-2009, 07:38 PM
No way I'd do this ... one year rental for a SP who appears to have figured it out ... in a position we're thin in .

JermaineDye05
01-02-2009, 07:41 PM
http://www.terminally-incoherent.com/blog/wp-content/uploads/2008/05/facepalm.jpg

Why do so many people NOT know the forum rules? Rumors= What's the Score?

Bucky F. Dent
01-02-2009, 07:48 PM
Makes no sense at all. Not with the limited nature of our starting pitchers. Not with the number of people we have brought onto the roster who play 2B.

Somebody for MASN (what the heck is MASN?????) was pretty bored to come up with this!

Dan Mega
01-02-2009, 07:54 PM
Makes no sense at all. Not with the limited nature of our starting pitchers. Not with the number of people we have brought onto the roster who play 2B.

Somebody for MASN (what the heck is MASN?????) was pretty bored to come up with this!

Or they just wanted some traffic to their website.

WhiteSox5187
01-02-2009, 07:57 PM
Makes no sense at all. Not with the limited nature of our starting pitchers. Not with the number of people we have brought onto the roster who play 2B.

Somebody for MASN (what the heck is MASN?????) was pretty bored to come up with this!
I think it's Maryland Sports Network and I think they broadcast the Orioles games.

Look, I love Brian Roberts but I don't think trading Floyd for Roberts helps the cause. I know that there is a lot of talk of Floyd being a "lucky" pitcher, but I don't believe that crap. He has good stuff. However, if they are willing to take a look at Richard and Broadway for Roberts, I think I would seriously consider it. This is where I wish we had kept Javy because I am willing to bet we probably could ahve turned a deal for Roberts with Javy and a couple of prospects for Roberts. But let's see.

sox1970
01-02-2009, 07:58 PM
Makes no sense for the Sox to pursue Roberts unless he signs longterm right away. For Floyd? No way. Not happening.

munchman33
01-02-2009, 08:04 PM
Maybe Floyd's expendable because Marquez, Broadway, Poreda, and Richard are all ready to step in and be stud starters.

munchman33
01-02-2009, 08:05 PM
The scariest part of this rumor is that WE initiated the swap straight up and were turned down.

WhiteSox5187
01-02-2009, 08:05 PM
Makes no sense for the Sox to pursue Roberts unless he signs longterm right away. For Floyd? No way. Not happening.
Well, Roberts certainly fills a couple of our holes, even if it's only for a year. However I agree that the idea of trading Floyd for him makes no sense. Now, if by chance we could get them to listen to discussions revolving around Broadway, Richard or Poreda (not all three of them, obviously), I wouldn't mind doing it. But not Floyd.

veeter
01-02-2009, 08:05 PM
If this trade happens it would not surprise me to see KW sign Jon Garland.I think he signs Garland anyway.

Danryan
01-02-2009, 08:05 PM
I doubt Baltimore would make this trade straight up. But if they would it is imperative to have an extension agreement with Roberts in place to make the deal. I have no problem in replacing Floyd with a free agent such as Garland.

WhiteSox5187
01-02-2009, 08:09 PM
I doubt Baltimore would make this trade straight up. But if they would it is imperative to have an extension agreement with Roberts in place to make the deal. I have no problem in replacing Floyd with a free agent such as Garland.
Floyd is younger and better than Garland though.

beckett21
01-02-2009, 08:10 PM
You can't get something for nothing, and I'm not one to auto-bash every potential trade/rumor, but I sure would hate to see Floyd go. Especially for a one year rental. Even if they did extend Roberts, you have to figure his speed numbers are going to decline pretty soon; the guy is 31.

Not a good idea to trade a potential staff cornerstone for someone like that, IMO. May be a little premature to call Floyd a 'cornerstone' after just one solid season, but he looks like he has started to figure it out and realize his immense potential. No dice.

LoveYourSuit
01-02-2009, 08:14 PM
Trading for a guy like Roberts is a move you do if you are knocking on the door to a WS championship.

The Sox are not close, especially if they give away their #3 starter by doing this.

WhiteSoxOnly
01-02-2009, 08:17 PM
Kenny will not deal Floyd for one year of Roberts,period.

Brian26
01-02-2009, 08:18 PM
I think he signs Garland anyway.

Would love to see that.

The only way this Floyd-for-Roberts trade makes sense is if Floyd has a Mike Sirotka problem that only KW knows about.

Dan Mega
01-02-2009, 08:21 PM
Floyd is younger and better than Garland though.

I know, taking a one year rental for Roberts while hugely downgrading from Floyd to Garland, and still having big question marks in the rotation?

Again, no way this happens.

munchman33
01-02-2009, 08:22 PM
Kenny will not deal Floyd for one year of Roberts,period.

The talk is Kenny offered him straight up and was turned down because the O's want more.

Let me be clear. I don't want to do this. But maybe Kenny thinks we need to sell high on Gavin. Or maybe he's got a few signings in line. Heck, maybe he's banking on a plethera of starters without jobs to be had for cheap this offseason. We don't really know.

But just dismissing the rumor is foolish. Roberts is the permier leadoff hitter in the AL. If I were the O's, I wouldn't trade him for only Gavin Floyd either.

DSpivack
01-02-2009, 08:25 PM
LOL at the O's fans commenting that they'd need more than just Floyd for Roberts.

turners56
01-02-2009, 08:27 PM
LOL at the O's fans commenting that they'd need more than just Floyd for Roberts.

They somehow think Roberts is worth a boatload.

Floyd is a lot better than anything the Cubs can give the O's for him. And tbh, the Cubs are the only other team that seem to be constantly trying to get him.

SBSoxFan
01-02-2009, 08:27 PM
The scariest part of this rumor is that WE initiated the swap straight up and were turned down.

The talk is Kenny offered him straight up and was turned down because the O's want more.

Where are you getting this information? The linked blurb doesn't state either of these.

DSpivack
01-02-2009, 08:27 PM
http://www.whitesoxinteractive.com/vbulletin/showthread.php?t=108629 (http://www.whitesoxinteractive.com/vbulletin/showthread.php?goto=newpost&t=108629)

cheezheadsoxfan
01-02-2009, 08:35 PM
I know, taking a one year rental for Roberts while hugely downgrading from Floyd to Garland, and still having big question marks in the rotation?

Again, no way this happens.

From your keyboard to God's ears; just the thought of this seriously ruined my evening.
:(:

oeo
01-02-2009, 08:43 PM
No way I'd do this ... one year rental for a SP who appears to have figured it out ... in a position we're thin in .

Not saying I want the deal to be done, but who says he's a rental? Kenny knows he would need to re-sign him.

KRS1
01-02-2009, 08:51 PM
Where are you getting this information? The linked blurb doesn't state either of these.

The voices in his head? :scratch:

champagne030
01-02-2009, 08:53 PM
http://masnsports.com/2009/01/roberts-to-the-other-chicago.html

Why would Kenny do this after spending all offseason dumping salary and rebuilding for 2010 and beyond?

Tragg
01-02-2009, 08:59 PM
If we are going to rent Brian Roberts, we need to play a renters' price. Floyd to rent Roberts for a year? We'll pay for that one.
Baltimore acts like he's Babe Ruth.
Sign him in a year.

pmck003
01-02-2009, 09:24 PM
I dunno anymore; I still don't like the trade much and it would be hard to see Floyd develop further somewhere else, but having a proven on-base guy with speed at the top seemed to work very well in the past. A player like Roberts seems hard to acquire right now while there are some fa pitchers out there who could arguably put up numbers like Floyd. Like most other rumors, it would need other moves to go along to make the team better.

Edit: a new deal for Roberts too

Tragg
01-02-2009, 09:30 PM
Not saying I want the deal to be done, but who says he's a rental? Kenny knows he would need to re-sign him.Because it is a rental.
If we sign him, that's a separate transaction. That's our surplus. We shouldn't pay Baltimore the price of Roberts signed to a 3 year deal.

scarsofthumper
01-02-2009, 09:31 PM
White Sox And O's Discussing Floyd-Roberts Swap (http://www.mlbtraderumors.com/2009/01/white-sox-and-o.html)

By Drew Silva [January 2 at 6:40pm CST]
According to Roch Kubatko of MASN Online (http://masnsports.com/index_blog_roch.html), the White Sox have discussed a trade with the Orioles for second baseman Brian Roberts.
Right-hander Gavin Floyd would be sent over from Chicago. The White Sox reportedly want to make it a straight-up swap, but the Orioles, predictably, are asking for more. Floyd, 25, went 17-8 last season with a 3.84 ERA and actually grew up in the Baltimore area.

rustysurf83
01-02-2009, 09:36 PM
http://www.whitesoxinteractive.com/vbulletin/showthread.php?t=108629

WhiteSoxFan84
01-02-2009, 09:44 PM
do it.

what happened to the "sell high" mentality?
BUT, i'd hope kenny has more moves set up after this one to fill the rotation AND he gets roberts to sign a long-term deal before finalizing the deal.

Roberts is due to make $9mm in 2009 and then he becomes a free agent. He also has a "limited no-trade clause allowing Roberts to block deals to a small number of clubs each season" according to Cot's (http://mlbcontracts.blogspot.com/2005/01/baltimore-orioles_112321768568552760.html).

so, i'd do it IF and only if the following also happens;
- the O's give us a 72-hour window to negotiate an extension with Roberts and we ink him to a 3 or 4 year deal paying him under $12mm per (dye and thome's $ will be off the books after this season so we can afford this after 2009).
- we deal jermaine dye to the reds for homer bailey (this will save us 11.5mm in 2009, helping us to pay for roberts and then some).
- we sign ben sheets (for $12mm per or less) or someone like him (derek lowe, odalis perez, etc.). like i said up a few lines when talking roberts' extension, with thome and dye's contracts coming off the books after 2009, we can afford this kind of deal starting in 2010. we've already saved $4mm+ (and "paid viciedo" $5mm upfront) with the swisher/vazquez, $2.5mm with the dye deal (considering we use $9mm of dye's $11.5mm to pay roberts' contract this year) for so we'd have to come up with $5.5 to pay for Sheets this season.


then the kids (bailey, clayton, poreda, broadway, etc.) can battle or out for the 4th and 5th spots.

ALL that being said.... no way this happens.

BadBobbyJenks
01-02-2009, 09:52 PM
It is a rental no matter what potentially happens after we acquire him. I will go nuts if we trade Gavin Floyd for Brian Roberts even though I would love Roberts on the team.

Why would we gather all of these second basemen only to bring in Brian Roberts. Hopefully it does not happen. An already thin rotation does not need to take this big of a hit.

DSpivack
01-02-2009, 09:53 PM
Gavin Floyd is from Baltimore, I'm guessing that's the source of the rumor from MASN.

Tragg
01-02-2009, 09:55 PM
do it.

what happened to the "sell high" mentality? So you think a return of 1 year of Roberts is selling Floyd high?

I'd like to see us do your other moves first.

Sockinchisox
01-02-2009, 09:56 PM
He has a follow up blog up saying that nothing is close but that KW wants Roberts, the Orioles brought up Floyd's name and KW is willing to trade him.

http://masnsports.com/2009/01/should-they-get-getz.html

scarsofthumper
01-02-2009, 09:58 PM
9:46pm: Kubatko adds that the Orioles should demand (http://masnsports.com/2009/01/should-they-get-getz.html) second baseman Chris Getz, who spent most of last season with the White Sox' Triple-A affiliate in Charlotte. He hit .302 with 11 homers and 52 RBI in 111 games.

WhiteSoxFan84
01-02-2009, 10:00 PM
So you think a return of 1 year of Roberts is selling Floyd high?

I'd like to see us do your other moves first.

if we can just get roberts to sign an extension AND some of that other stuff happens, then awesome.

but... if we trade dye, our outfield REALLY looks weak. we'd have to consider Quentin/Owens/Anderson as our LF/CF/RF or.... Fields/Owens or Anderson/Quentin. That would worry me...

or... we do ALL that stuff i said and we sign manny ramirez.

WhiteSoxFan84
01-02-2009, 10:02 PM
He has a follow up blog up saying that nothing is close but that KW wants Roberts, the Orioles brought up Floyd's name and KW is willing to trade him.

http://masnsports.com/2009/01/should-they-get-getz.html


i think this has a 5% chance of being true (the floyd/roberts swap). i don't doubt that kw wants roberts one bit.

DSpivack
01-02-2009, 10:03 PM
He has a follow up blog up saying that nothing is close but that KW wants Roberts, the Orioles brought up Floyd's name and KW is willing to trade him.

http://masnsports.com/2009/01/should-they-get-getz.html

I'm still not clear whether this is just a delusional O's fan with a blog, or a delusional MASN reporter.

PalehosePlanet
01-02-2009, 10:11 PM
do it.

what happened to the "sell high" mentality?
BUT, i'd hope kenny has more moves set up after this one to fill the rotation AND he gets roberts to sign a long-term deal before finalizing the deal.

Roberts is due to make $9mm in 2009 and then he becomes a free agent. He also has a "limited no-trade clause allowing Roberts to block deals to a small number of clubs each season" according to Cot's (http://mlbcontracts.blogspot.com/2005/01/baltimore-orioles_112321768568552760.html).

so, i'd do it IF and only if the following also happens;
- the O's give us a 72-hour window to negotiate an extension with Roberts and we ink him to a 3 or 4 year deal paying him under $12mm per (dye and thome's $ will be off the books after this season so we can afford this after 2009).
- we deal jermaine dye to the reds for homer bailey (this will save us 11.5mm in 2009, helping us to pay for roberts and then some).
- we sign ben sheets (for $12mm per or less) or someone like him (derek lowe, odalis perez, etc.). like i said up a few lines when talking roberts' extension, with thome and dye's contracts coming off the books after 2009, we can afford this kind of deal starting in 2010. we've already saved $4mm+ (and "paid viciedo" $5mm upfront) with the swisher/vazquez, $2.5mm with the dye deal (considering we use $9mm of dye's $11.5mm to pay roberts' contract this year) for so we'd have to come up with $5.5 to pay for Sheets this season.


then the kids (bailey, clayton, poreda, broadway, etc.) can battle or out for the 4th and 5th spots.

ALL that being said.... no way this happens.

We could and should do many of the secondary things you mentioned without trading Floyd.

And, Dude, please don't ever mention Odalis Perez in the same sentence with Sheets and Lowe. Did you forget the teal?

WhiteSoxFan84
01-02-2009, 10:16 PM
We could and should do many of the secondary things you mentioned without trading Floyd.

And, Dude, please don't ever mention Odalis Perez in the same sentence with Sheets and Lowe. Did you forget the teal?

No, no. I meant money wise. Unfortunately, Perez will only fall 1 or 2 mill short annually compared to the other two guys because of his age and because he's lefty. At least that's what I've been reading all season long.

SoxGirl4Life
01-02-2009, 10:17 PM
9:46pm: Kubatko adds that the Orioles should demand (http://masnsports.com/2009/01/should-they-get-getz.html) second baseman Chris Getz, who spent most of last season with the White Sox' Triple-A affiliate in Charlotte. He hit .302 with 11 homers and 52 RBI in 111 games.


Floyd and Getz for a one year rental of Roberts? That's gotta be a freakin joke

turners56
01-02-2009, 10:18 PM
9:46pm: Kubatko adds that the Orioles should demand (http://masnsports.com/2009/01/should-they-get-getz.html) second baseman Chris Getz, who spent most of last season with the White Sox' Triple-A affiliate in Charlotte. He hit .302 with 11 homers and 52 RBI in 111 games.

Chris Getz is no Brian Roberts, but I like the guy's potential. If he can put somewhere near those numbers next year at the Major League level, he will be pretty close to the production of Roberts, without the speed.

GoGoCrede
01-02-2009, 10:28 PM
Floyd was my favorite pitcher to watch in 2008. I hope he doesn't get traded.

That said, this thread is going to be my entertainment for the next few days. Trade rumor threads never get old.

DSpivack
01-02-2009, 10:40 PM
Chris Getz is no Brian Roberts, but I like the guy's potential. If he can put somewhere near those numbers next year at the Major League level, he will be pretty close to the production of Roberts, without the speed.

And power.

Thome25
01-02-2009, 10:48 PM
Makes no sense at all. Not with the limited nature of our starting pitchers. Not with the number of people we have brought onto the roster who play 2B.

Somebody for MASN (what the heck is MASN?????) was pretty bored to come up with this!

MASN=Mid Atlantic Sports Network......I know it well. It's the equivalent of Comcast Sports Net. They broadcast some Orioles and Nationals games.

gr8mexico
01-02-2009, 10:52 PM
I wonder if the Sox can get Brian Roberts and George Sherrill from the O's.
here is the latest news
http://baltimore.orioles.mlb.com/news/article.jsp?ymd=20090102&content_id=3731873&vkey=news_bal&fext=.jsp&c_id=bal

champagne030
01-02-2009, 10:56 PM
I'm still not clear whether this is just a delusional O's fan with a blog, or a delusional MASN reporter.

I'm down with dealing a combo of Poreda, Marquez, Broadway and any of the flotsam utility guys of Lillibridge, Betemit, Nix for Roberts....It just appears that Baltimore thinks they can get much, much more than that.

Dealing our dirt cheap #3 starter, without a #4 or #5 starter, seems rather silly considering the moves we've already. :shrug:

KRS1
01-02-2009, 10:56 PM
I doubt any source within the Sox gave this guy any of this info, which leads me to believe the smoke here is probably just to get another bidder to get serious. I mean, "Kenny was willing to deal Floyd."??? Okay, Hendry, they were willing to move Gavin, now make with Marshall now or your cross-town rival gets your guy. Wouldn't be the first time a team used some media buzz to prod others into action and get some life into discussions.

cards press box
01-02-2009, 10:59 PM
<50% chance this trade rumor is true.

IMO

Far less than 50%.

i think this has a 5% chance of being true (the floyd/roberts swap). i don't doubt that kw wants roberts one bit.

Far less than 5%.

More like < .05%. Gavin Floyd has had little more than one year of MLB service time and does not reach free agency for a long time. Given the current economic climate in the U.S., an even up trade of Floyd for Roberts makes no economic sense.

This trade rumor makes no sense baseball-wise, either. The Sox have good prospects in Chris Getz and Jayson Nix, an elite prospect in Gordon Beckham and a guy considered an elite prospect as recently as 2007 in Brent Lillibridge. All of them can play 2B.

This rumor from Baltimore lacks all credibility.

Thome25
01-02-2009, 11:04 PM
I doubt any source within the Sox gave this guy any of this info, which leads me to believe the smoke here is probably just to get another bidder to get serious. I mean, "Kenny was willing to deal Floyd."??? Okay, Hendry, they were willing to move Gavin, now make with Marshall now or your cross-town rival gets your guy. Wouldn't be the first time a team used some media buzz to prod others into action and get some life into discussions.

This would make some sense. Everyone is speculationg that the Cubs cleared payroll by trading DeRosa but, maybe they were clearing 2B for Roberts? Maybe MacPhail is trying to get the Cubs to buckle down and get more serious?

If this is rumor true, I love it when KW makes the internet message boardmembers and so-called media experts scratch their heads. Because it usually means something good is about to happen for the Sox if everyone else thinks it's bad.

Remember 2005? Remember The C. Lee for Podsednik trade? Remember the Iguchi signing? Or the El Duque and Pierzynski signings? They had WSI turned upside down and had so called media experts picking us to finish 4th. How did that turn out?

everafan
01-02-2009, 11:05 PM
Maybe Floyd's expendable because Marquez, Broadway, Poreda, and Richard are all ready to step in and be stud starters.

Well then give the O's one of those guys (except Poreda). Seriously -I'd rather have Floyd for the next 5 years than Roberts for one year. And they want Getz too? If that's true it's no wonder McPhail can't get anything done.

everafan
01-02-2009, 11:07 PM
Not saying I want the deal to be done, but who says he's a rental? Kenny knows he would need to re-sign him.

Kenny intended to resign Cabrera until they found out he was a jerk.

everafan
01-02-2009, 11:09 PM
i think this has a 5% chance of being true (the floyd/roberts swap). i don't doubt that kw wants roberts one bit.

It's probably true that the O's asked for Floyd - but no way Kenny bites

Thome25
01-02-2009, 11:09 PM
Far less than 50%.



Far less than 5%.

More like < .05%. Gavin Floyd has had little more than one year of MLB service time and does not reach free agency for a long time. Given the current economic climate in the U.S., an even up trade of Floyd for Roberts makes no economic sense.

This trade rumor makes no sense baseball-wise, either. The Sox have good prospects in Chris Getz and Jayson Nix, an elite prospect in Gordon Beckham and a guy considered an elite prospect as recently as 2007 in Brent Lillibridge. All of them can play 2B.

This rumor from Baltimore lacks all credibility.

I think Beckham is more likely to play SS or 3B than 2B. Why would the Sox take a guy they know can play a pretty good 2B (Ramirez) and move him over to Beckham's natural position (SS) and make Beckham learn a position that's foreign to him? (2B)....Seems kinda backwards doesn't it?

Roberts at 2B, Ramirez at SS, and Beckham at 3B makes more sense. Especially when it seems Fields is falling out of favor at 3B. Who knows..... In this scenario, Fields may be at 1B when Thome leaves and Konerko would be the DH.

jabrch
01-02-2009, 11:17 PM
I don't buy this either. Makes no sense. Roberts is a FA after this season. Gavin is under control for 4 more years after this season.

No way.

JB98
01-02-2009, 11:21 PM
I don't buy this either. Makes no sense. Roberts is a FA after this season. Gavin is under control for 4 more years after this season.

No way.

And the Sox already have a couple of question marks in the rotation. Why add another? Makes no sense to me.

I'm much more concerned about starting pitching than I am about 2B.

A. Cavatica
01-02-2009, 11:22 PM
Floyd for Roberts and Adam Jones. Makes as much sense as Floyd for Roberts straight up...

munchman33
01-02-2009, 11:27 PM
Brian Roberts >>> Gavin Floyd

There isn't a universe that isn't true in. Gavin's had one good year. Roberts has been a star leadoff man for several.

The issue here is whether we'd find other pitching. Not whether this would be a good deal. Straight up, it's a steal for us.

Thome25
01-02-2009, 11:32 PM
When has KW ever given away a pitcher that went on to be a stud? Oh yeah, that's right........NEVER. When KW feels it's time to trade a SP then he obviously sees and/or knows something that the average fan/media member doesn't.

Remember when he traded Mike Sirotka, Kip Wells, Josh Fogg, Esteban Loaiza, Brandon McCarthy, Freddy Garcia, and Jon Garland? How did those pitchers turn out? When he feels like it's time to trade a SP.....then IT's DEFINITELY TIME.

The same will probably end up happening with Javy Vazquez.......and if he feels like it's time to trade Gavin (which I don't think he does.) then I trust him and so should everyone else. His track record justifies it.

champagne030
01-02-2009, 11:33 PM
Brian Roberts >>> Gavin Floyd



Not for a team that's rebuilding. :gulp:

Boondock Saint
01-02-2009, 11:34 PM
Brian Roberts >>> Gavin Floyd

There isn't a universe that isn't true in. Gavin's had one good year. Roberts has been a star leadoff man for several.

The issue here is whether we'd find other pitching. Not whether this would be a good deal. Straight up, it's a steal for us.

If it's that simple, why not just trade Buehrle and Danks for a 3B and CF?

Better does not equal more important. The Sox may want Roberts, but they NEED Floyd.

cards press box
01-02-2009, 11:35 PM
Brian Roberts >>> Gavin Floyd

There isn't a universe that isn't true in. Gavin's had one good year. Roberts has been a star leadoff man for several.

The issue here is whether we'd find other pitching. Not whether this would be a good deal. Straight up, it's a steal for us.

But a straight up deal really wouldn't be Roberts for Floyd. It would be 1 year of Roberts at age 31 for 4+ years of Floyd starting at age 26. The difference in their respective lengths of MLB service and their ages are not insignificant and profoundly impact any possible trade.

Given these differences, I would not currently deal Floyd for Roberts even up. The Orioles would have to add a lot more.

munchman33
01-02-2009, 11:39 PM
If it's that simple, why not just trade Buehrle and Danks for a 3B and CF?

Better does not equal more important. The Sox may want Roberts, but they NEED Floyd.

But a straight up deal really wouldn't be Roberts for Floyd. It would be 1 year of Roberts at age 31 for 4+ years of Floyd starting at age 26. The difference in their respective lengths of MLB service and their ages are not insignificant and profoundly impact any possible trade.

Given these differences, I would not currently deal Floyd for Roberts even up. The Orioles would have to add a lot more.

It's true we need Gavin more, given in house options. Unless:

1. Kenny thinks Gavin won't show what he did last year and has topped out.

2. Kenny thinks he could sign an adequate replacement on the free agent market (this is very likely).

And the trade isn't for one year of Roberts. He's a type A guy. If we don't resign him, we also get high draft picks for him. That does come into consideration.

JUribe1989
01-02-2009, 11:40 PM
If we traded Floyd for Roberts, we would guarantee ourselves 70 wins or less.

JermaineDye05
01-02-2009, 11:56 PM
9:46pm: Kubatko adds that the Orioles should demand (http://masnsports.com/2009/01/should-they-get-getz.html) second baseman Chris Getz, who spent most of last season with the White Sox' Triple-A affiliate in Charlotte. He hit .302 with 11 homers and 52 RBI in 111 games.

Personally I'd rather keep Floyd and Getz.

Call it a gut feeling but I say this trade is about as likely as the Cubs getting Peavy.

DSpivack
01-02-2009, 11:57 PM
Personally I'd rather keep Floyd and Getz.

Call it a gut feeling but I say this trade is about as likely as the Cubs getting Peavy.

The dreams of yet another Baltimoron.

johnnyg83
01-02-2009, 11:58 PM
Brian Roberts >>> Gavin Floyd


I disagree. Roberts has been the better pro thusfar, yes ... Floyd has a better future, is cheaper and fits our needs.

A. Cavatica
01-02-2009, 11:58 PM
Brian Roberts >>> Gavin Floyd

There isn't a universe that isn't true in. Gavin's had one good year. Roberts has been a star leadoff man for several.

The issue here is whether we'd find other pitching. Not whether this would be a good deal. Straight up, it's a steal for us.

Wrong, wrong, wrong.

Wrong because Roberts has a career OBP of .355, which is a nice solid leadoff man, but not a star. Frank Catalanotto has a .358 career OBP; is he a star leadoff man? Is Placido Polanco (.350)? How about Bip Roberts (.358)?

Wrong because you're getting an expensive player for one year and giving up a cheap player for several.

Wrong because Roberts was (perhaps still is?) a steroid user.

Wrong because starting pitchers are intrinsically more valuable than position players.

Wrong because right now, both the White Sox and Orioles need starting pitchers more than they need second basemen.

I'm one of those who thinks Floyd will regress, and it might be a good time to trade him; but one year of Roberts creates a bigger problem than it solves.

munchman33
01-03-2009, 12:02 AM
I disagree. Roberts has been the better pro thusfar, yes ... Floyd has a better future, is cheaper and fits our needs.

That isn't disagreeing...that's just qualifying for situation, which I already did. Floyd is still a #3 starter with one decent year under his belt, and Brian Roberts is still consistently the best leadoff man in the American League.

JermaineDye05
01-03-2009, 12:03 AM
The dreams of yet another Baltimoron.

Before I rebuttal, are you calling me a moron or the person who brought up the rumor of Floyd-Roberts? Just looking for clarification :D:.

DSpivack
01-03-2009, 12:06 AM
Before I rebuttal, are you calling me a moron or the person who brought up the rumor of Floyd-Roberts? Just looking for clarification :D:.

Haha, sorry, the writer.

Are you from Baltimore? :wink:

Get Back There!
01-03-2009, 12:06 AM
Heads up:

http://www.mlbtraderumors.com/2009/01/white-sox-and-o.html

http://mlb.mlb.com/news/article.jsp?ymd=20090102&content_id=3731873&vkey=hotstove2008&fext=.jsp

Gavin's the man, but maybe KW and co are worried about his aug/Sept ERA

DSpivack
01-03-2009, 12:07 AM
http://www.whitesoxinteractive.com/vbulletin/showthread.php?goto=newpost&t=108629

johnnyg83
01-03-2009, 12:08 AM
That isn't disagreeing...that's just qualifying for situation, which I already did. Floyd is still a #3 starter with one decent year under his belt, and Brian Roberts is still consistently the best leadoff man in the American League.

You have to qualify it, baseball isn't just about the player's worth on that specific day.

But let's say that you still make the trade (I wouldn't) ... even if the contracts were equal would you trade a SP with first round stuff who has seemed to figure it out for a player who'd play in position where we seem to have relative depth vs. taking from a place where we are thin. Maybe if he played CF. Maybe. But not 2b.

Get Back There!
01-03-2009, 12:08 AM
haha good point

munchman33
01-03-2009, 12:08 AM
Wrong, wrong, wrong.

Wrong because Roberts has a career OBP of .355, which is a nice solid leadoff man, but not a star. Frank Catalanotto has a .358 career OBP; is he a star leadoff man? Is Placido Polanco (.350)? How about Bip Roberts (.358)?

Wrong because you're getting an expensive player for one year and giving up a cheap player for several.

Wrong because Roberts was (perhaps still is?) a steroid user.

Wrong because starting pitchers are intrinsically more valuable than position players.

Wrong because right now, both the White Sox and Orioles need starting pitchers more than they need second basemen.

I'm one of those who thinks Floyd will regress, and it might be a good time to trade him; but one year of Roberts creates a bigger problem than it solves.

.355 is a very good obp for a leadoff guy. .355 and consistently among the stolen base leaders is ****ing fantastic. You don't believe me, look at the output of leadoff men in the American League the last few years. Roberts has been the best.

It's fairly obvious what year Roberts took steroids, and it's fairly obvious that he isn't putting up those power numbers anymore.

Position players play everyday. Leadoff hitters bat more often than any position player. Your opinion might be that pitchers have more value, but it's a tough argument to make, especially when said pitcher is not a star and said hitter is.

I do agree that both teams need starters more than anything. But I don't think that Gavin is irreplacable. And he's WAY more replaceable than Roberts, whose production at leadoff cannot be matched in the current free agent market.

munchman33
01-03-2009, 12:09 AM
You have to qualify it, baseball isn't just about the player's worth on that specific day.

But let's say that you still make the trade (I wouldn't) ... even if the contracts were equal would you trade a SP with first round stuff who has seemed to figure it out for a player who'd play in position where we seem to have relative depth vs. taking from a place where we are thin. Maybe if he played CF. Maybe. But not 2b.

I did qualify it. You just didn't read after the first line.

johnnyg83
01-03-2009, 12:10 AM
I see. I thought you were saying that I WAS qualifying it.

munchman33
01-03-2009, 12:12 AM
I see. I thought you were saying that I WAS qualifying it.

Haha..I was saying you were just repeating me and disagreeing with me at the same time.

johnnyg83
01-03-2009, 12:14 AM
It felt so right ...

MHOUSE
01-03-2009, 12:20 AM
I would not be a fan of this trade one bit. We have only 3 starters as it is and wouldn't be getting any major-league level pitching in return because Baltimore basically has a one-man rotation (Guthrie), 2 if you count the Hendrickson signing. This would be a great trade for the Os, but although it fills our void at the top of the order, it weakens our pitching staff even more. We'd either need to spend more money on 2+ starters or go into the season with Poreda, Richard, and Marquez pencilled in? Yeeesh. We'd have less of a rotation than Minnesota for sure and arguably Cleveland, KC, and Detroit as well. I remember like 2002 or 2003 when we went with a nobody 5th starter all season and it was a gaping hole to overcome that the team never did. Roberts is worth creating a 3rd such hole? No way!

RedPinStripes
01-03-2009, 12:35 AM
Not sure about this yet. :scratch:

A. Cavatica
01-03-2009, 12:42 AM
...leadoff men in the American League the last few years. Roberts has been the best.


Just because the league has a shortage of star leadoff men doesn't make Roberts one. I repeat, are Catalanotto and Polanco star leadoff men?

Position players play everyday. Leadoff hitters bat more often than any position player. Your opinion might be that pitchers have more value, but it's a tough argument to make, especially when said pitcher is not a star and said hitter is.

It's actually a very easy argument to make. Roberts had 704 plate appearances last year. Floyd faced 828 batters. Floyd clearly had a bigger effect on his team's fortunes than Roberts did.

I'll grant you that Roberts is better at his job than Floyd is at his, but it's the dropoff to the replacement player that matters. So in that sense I agree with you. If KW signs Ben Sheets, the trade will work a lot better than if we have three of Richard/Broadway/Marquez/Poreda in the rotation.

Nellie_Fox
01-03-2009, 12:59 AM
Heads up:

http://www.mlbtraderumors.com/2009/01/white-sox-and-o.html

http://mlb.mlb.com/news/article.jsp?ymd=20090102&content_id=3731873&vkey=hotstove2008&fext=.jsp

Gavin's the man, but maybe KW and co are worried about his aug/Sept ERAAlready in WTS, where it belongs. Merged.

munchman33
01-03-2009, 01:03 AM
Just because the league has a shortage of star leadoff men doesn't make Roberts one. I repeat, are Catalanotto and Polanco star leadoff men?



It's actually a very easy argument to make. Roberts had 704 plate appearances last year. Floyd faced 828 batters. Floyd clearly had a bigger effect on his team's fortunes than Roberts did.

I'll grant you that Roberts is better at his job than Floyd is at his, but it's the dropoff to the replacement player that matters. So in that sense I agree with you. If KW signs Ben Sheets, the trade will work a lot better than if we have three of Richard/Broadway/Marquez/Poreda in the rotation.

There are so many guys we could sign to fill Gavin's role, Sheets isn't the only one. Gavin wasn't THAT good last year. And his peripherals say he wasn't as good as his results.

As for the pitcher vs. hitter argument...Gavin's batters only mattered for about 30 games. And if you want an even field for both...Roberts was top 25 in all of baseball in VORP, 4th in baseball at second base, and fourth in baseball among guys who leadoff for their teams last year. You can't make that kind of argument that for Gavin. He's only the third best starter on our team, and might not even be among the top ten starters in our division!

WhiteSoxFan84
01-03-2009, 01:09 AM
There are so many guys we could sign to fill Gavin's role, Sheets isn't the only one. Gavin wasn't THAT good last year. And his peripherals say he wasn't as good as his results.

As for the pitcher vs. hitter argument...Gavin's batters only mattered for about 30 games. And if you want an even field for both...Roberts was top 25 in all of baseball in VORP, 4th in baseball at second base, and fourth in baseball among guys who leadoff for their teams last year. You can't make that kind of argument that for Gavin. He's only the third best starter on our team, and might not even be among the top ten starters in our division!

Not that **** again. I thought we already proved VORP was meaningless?

munchman33
01-03-2009, 01:12 AM
Not that **** again. I thought we already proved VORP was meaningless?

VORP is a really bad statistic when comparing players, unless you're only talking about offense, and you're only talking about guys that play one set position. Then it's the best statistic.

If you want, I can use OPS or any other number of stats to show that Brian Roberts is a stud too. It's not hard with superstars.

WhiteSoxFan84
01-03-2009, 01:13 AM
VORP is a really bad statistic when comparing players, unless you're only talking about offense, and you're only talking about guys that play one set position. Then it's the best statistic.

If you want, I can use OPS or any other number of stats to show that Brian Roberts is a stud too. It's not hard with superstars.

I like Roberts so you don't have to show me anything to prove that to me.

But, I proved here that VORP is plain ole BS (http://www.whitesoxinteractive.com/vbulletin/showpost.php?p=2126402&postcount=201).

BadBobbyJenks
01-03-2009, 01:15 AM
So it is not possible that Nick Swisher is better than his numbers indicated, but you have no problem saying Gavin was not as good as his numbers indicated?

cards press box
01-03-2009, 01:18 AM
It's true we need Gavin more, given in house options. Unless:

1. Kenny thinks Gavin won't show what he did last year and has topped out.

2. Kenny thinks he could sign an adequate replacement on the free agent market (this is very likely).

And the trade isn't for one year of Roberts. He's a type A guy. If we don't resign him, we also get high draft picks for him. That does come into consideration.

It is difficult to say whether Floyd's value is as high as it will ever be. He didn't pitch as well as John Danks last year but Floyd still had a top-notch season. Down the stretch, he pitched well in many critical games and won games when the Sox needed wins the most. Floyd is one of the White Sox' best players.

If Floyd were dealt, I wonder what pitcher or pitchers the Sox would add via free agency or trade? Derek Lowe is available but probably out of the Sox price range? Ben Sheets? Jon Garland? Andy Pettitte? Right now, the Sox should probably add one starter, anyway. If the Sox deal Floyd, they'll need two.

If Roberts is a type A free agent, that does increase the Sox' options. The extra draft picks certainly have value and, who knows, the Sox might wish to extend Roberts.

If the Sox do trade for Roberts and keep him long term, what will they do with their surplus of middle infield prospects?

WhiteSox5187
01-03-2009, 01:18 AM
Here's the thing, getting Roberts for Floyd solves one problem, but creates another problem and ultimately I'd rather go a season where we don't really have a solid leadoff hitter than a season where we only have two pitchers.

I don't know a whole lot about Baltimore's current situation but I would imagine that they are desperately trying to get young, and Floyd certainly allows them to do that, but so would Poreda, Richard and Broadway. Although I think the ceiling is probably not as high on Richard and Broadway, but I would strongly consider moving Broadway, Getz and (gulp) Poreda for Roberts. Again, we're giving up an awful lot in that trade, but if you can get Roberts you have a solid leadoff hitter which means you can probably put Anderson in CF and I'd feel alot better about our defense up the middle. Also, if we can then turn around and sign a guy like Sheets, I think we'd probably be the favorite to win another Central title. But again, I don't really know and I'd be a lousy GM!

johnnyg83
01-03-2009, 01:18 AM
There are so many guys we could sign to fill Gavin's role, Sheets isn't the only one. Gavin wasn't THAT good last year. And his peripherals say he wasn't as good as his results.


Wha? Who?

Sheets is a expensive question mark @ $10 mill+ ... Floyd is a #3 but could be a #1 ... how many potential #1s do we have in the system ... Danks? Buehrle and ????

WhiteSox5187
01-03-2009, 01:19 AM
It is difficult to say whether Floyd's value is as high as it will ever be. He didn't pitch as well as John Danks last year but Floyd still had a top-notch season. Down the stretch, he pitched well in many critical games and won games when the Sox needed wins the most. Floyd is one of the White Sox' best players.

If Floyd were dealt, I wonder what pitcher or pitchers the Sox would add via free agency or trade? Derek Lowe is available but probably out of the Sox price range? Ben Sheets? Jon Garland? Andy Pettitte? Right now, the Sox should probably add one starter, anyway. If the Sox deal Floyd, they'll need two.

If Roberts is a type A free agent, that does increase the Sox' options. The extra draft picks certainly have value and, who knows, the Sox might wish to extend Roberts.

If the Sox do trade for Roberts and keep him long term, what will they do with their surplus of middle infield prospects?
You could turn around and trade them for another starter.

WhiteSox5187
01-03-2009, 01:21 AM
Wha? Who?

Sheets is a expensive question mark @ $10 mill+ ... Floyd is a #3 but could be a #1 ... how many potential #1s do we have in the system ... Danks? Buehrle and ????
I don't think Sheets is going to command that much money. Plus there are other options, Pettite is available, as is Sheets. Like I said, I'd love to have Roberts but I don't think I'm willing to give away Floyd for him.

johnnyg83
01-03-2009, 01:21 AM
You could turn around and trade them for another starter.
If that's the plan .. great ... but that takes some forward thinking where things have to fall in place that you may not necessarily have control.

johnnyg83
01-03-2009, 01:25 AM
I've read nothing about Pettite except in Houston or NYY.

Sheets will go for a minimum 2 yrs $16 IMHO. If we can get him for less than that we're insane for not signing today.

A. Cavatica
01-03-2009, 01:31 AM
There are so many guys we could sign to fill Gavin's role, Sheets isn't the only one. Gavin wasn't THAT good last year. And his peripherals say he wasn't as good as his results.


Ha. Gavin is better than Vazquez and Garland and Byrd, and those guys are going to make some nice money. Who are some of these other guys who can give us 200 innings and win 15+ games? Please eliminate Scott Boras clients from your list.

As for the pitcher vs. hitter argument...Gavin's batters only mattered for about 30 games. And if you want an even field for both...Roberts was top 25 in all of baseball in VORP, 4th in baseball at second base, and fourth in baseball among guys who leadoff for their teams last year. You can't make that kind of argument that for Gavin. He's only the third best starter on our team, and might not even be among the top ten starters in our division!

What do you mean, "Gavin's batters only mattered for about 30 games"? Are you trying to argue that 704 > 828, just because the 828 were concentrated into 33 starts? That's just silly. Roberts played in (approximately) five times as many games and had one-ninth of the responsibility.

I appreciate the VORP numbers; what's your source?

Chrisaway
01-03-2009, 01:42 AM
Hmm I don't know about this one. I'd love to have Roberts but at this rate I am gonna have a shot at cracking this rotation and I don't think a 28 year old righty that only throws change ups is gonna win much.

Nellie_Fox
01-03-2009, 02:06 AM
... I don't think a 28 year old righty that only throws change ups is gonna win much.I'll be sixty this year, but I can still throw a knuckleball (I think; I haven't tried it in a while.)

munchman33
01-03-2009, 02:32 AM
I appreciate the VORP numbers; what's your source?

Baseball Prospectus, it's their stat.

munchman33
01-03-2009, 02:44 AM
I like Roberts so you don't have to show me anything to prove that to me.

But, I proved here that VORP is plain ole BS (http://www.whitesoxinteractive.com/vbulletin/showpost.php?p=2126402&postcount=201).

No, you proved that you don't know what VORP means, that's all. VORP is a statistic based on your worth AT YOUR POSITION. Putting them in a list like that and saying the top guys are better than guys under them at other positions shows a lack of understanding of what the statistic is meant to do. What it really means is that the guys at the top are more valuable offensively compared to people at his position. Guys like Ryan Howard might be offensive studs, but there are a lot more guys at that position putting up good numbers, and he's not that much better than the average first baseman. Meanwhile, a guy like Chase Utley, who puts up comparable numbers to Howard, does it at a position bereft of that kind of talent. So his VORP is through the roof.

ViPeRx007
01-03-2009, 03:52 AM
All I know is that if KW makes this move he better be bringing in a GOOD pitcher from somewhere as well. Otherwise Coop should demand a raise with all of the work he's going to have this season.

Even with Floyd I think they need one more starter, without him they probably need 2.

whitesox901
01-03-2009, 04:30 AM
god I ****ing hope not

Frater Perdurabo
01-03-2009, 07:00 AM
I don't like this at all, unless KW then immediately flips prospects to San Diego for Peavy and/or signs Sheets.

Craig Grebeck
01-03-2009, 08:22 AM
I like Roberts so you don't have to show me anything to prove that to me.

But, I proved here that VORP is plain ole BS (http://www.whitesoxinteractive.com/vbulletin/showpost.php?p=2126402&postcount=201).
No you didn't, you proved you didn't understand it.

Craig Grebeck
01-03-2009, 08:24 AM
I'd like to go on record that I agree with what a lot of Munch is saying, but I don't think Roberts is the guy we go after if we're dangling Floyd. I'd much rather go after a young CF that can be there for 5-7 years. With Roberts, it's not so much that we don't need him, I just think the team would be better with Getz/young CF than Roberts/Owens or Anderson (or Wise AHHHH).

KyWhiSoxFan
01-03-2009, 09:47 AM
The Sox can get a lot more for Floyd than the one-year rental being discussed here. This talk of Floyd for Roberts straight up makes no sense.

You have to cherish pitching when it comes to trades, and any trade that weakens a pitching staff is a trade you don't make.

russ99
01-03-2009, 10:29 AM
The Sox can get a lot more for Floyd than the one-year rental being discussed here. This talk of Floyd for Roberts straight up makes no sense.

You have to cherish pitching when it comes to trades, and any trade that weakens a pitching staff is a trade you don't make.

My only addition to this obvious conjecture is that the time to deal Floyd would be after his first good season. He may get better next year, but may also backslide.

If Kenny has other moves to shore up the staff up his sleeves and thinks he can bank on Poreda in a starting spot, maybe... Roberts would fix a lot of issues in the lineup. Also Kenny pulled a very similar move last year, getting Cabrera.

Craig Grebeck
01-03-2009, 10:32 AM
Also Kenny pulled a very similar move last year, getting Cabrera.
What, if anything, is similar about the two moves?

jabrch
01-03-2009, 10:34 AM
Roberts would fix a lot of issues in the lineup. Also Kenny pulled a very similar move last year, getting Cabrera.

Garland in his walk year, on the decline is similar to Floyd after his first full season with 17 wins, a 3.84 ERA and a 1.26 WHIP?

Serious?

russ99
01-03-2009, 10:41 AM
Garland in his walk year, on the decline is similar to Floyd after his first full season with 17 wins, a 3.84 ERA and a 1.26 WHIP?

Serious?

True, I forgot it was a walk year vs. a walk year. But then again, Roberts is much better than O Cabrera and would command a higher price.

Also, if the O's turned down a number of deals for a boatload of prospects in the last few years, why would they take the Sox prospects now? Floyd is the kind of high value player that could get a deal done. Also, as I recall Kenny went after Roberts at the deadline, so there is past history.

I'm not saying Kenny should do that trade (even if he had Sheets waiting in his office), but I'd understand it if it went down.

Craig Grebeck
01-03-2009, 10:48 AM
True, I forgot it was a walk year vs. a walk year. But then again, Roberts is much better than O Cabrera and would command a higher price.

Also, if the O's turned down a number of deals for a boatload of prospects in the last few years, why would they take the Sox prospects now? Floyd is the kind of high value player that could get a deal done. Also, as I recall Kenny went after Roberts at the deadline, so there is past history.

I'm not saying Kenny should do that trade (even if he had Sheets waiting in his office), but I'd understand it if it went down.
It's still not a similar deal, at all. Garland was average at best and it was a salary wash. Floyd is above average and showed progression.

Again, Roberts is good, but our rotation without Floyd is weak. Why not just sign Ben Sheets and keep Floyd as well? If Jeff Marquez is our 4/5, we won't top the Royals.

RedPinStripes
01-03-2009, 10:56 AM
I'll be sixty this year, but I can still throw a knuckleball (I think; I haven't tried it in a while.)

I'm 33 and I never could throw a knuckle ball. :D:

Metalthrasher442
01-03-2009, 11:11 AM
Hawk always says how the Orioles love Gavin Floyd, so I'm sure they're trying for him, but I doubt this would be the trade. Doesn't make any sense literally at all.

MeanFish
01-03-2009, 11:14 AM
If true, this is just dumb. Our rotation is already shallow, and the guys we do have are under our control for a long time. They're guys you build around, not guys you trade after a season.

We don't need a leadoff hitter that badly. Really. I mean it. Don't get me wrong -- it would be nice to have a speedy, reliable contact hitter at the top of the order but it's hardly worth sacrificing a rotation over.

Metalthrasher442
01-03-2009, 11:18 AM
Yeah but seriously how many seasons are we going to go with out a solidified lead off hitter. That should be a higher priority then a solidified number five hitter.

champagne030
01-03-2009, 11:27 AM
Again, Roberts is good, but our rotation without Floyd is weak.

Our rotation is weak with Floyd. The White Sox have numerous holes, but the most glaring, imo, is #4 and #5. We cannot create another at #3. I believe that one of the guys in the 2B mix can bat .250/.300 and play above average defense and a platoon of Betemit and Fields will produce 100 RBI's with significantly below average defense. I'm not confident that one of Richard/Marquez/Broadway/Poreda can produce an ERA below 5.75 as a starter, let alone having 3 having breakout seasons.

Maybe if we pump the $18M, or so, we're under last seasons payroll into Sheets and Garland (or some other decent combo) the trade would make some sense. It just doesn't appear that Jerry's budget allows us to take so little profit in '09.

MeanFish
01-03-2009, 11:37 AM
Yeah but seriously how many seasons are we going to go with out a solidified lead off hitter. That should be a higher priority then a solidified number five hitter.

Consider this - the prototypical leadoff hitter has to do the following:

- Make contact regularly (otherwise, people will just pitch to contact) WHILE
- Seeing a lot of pitches AND
- Being able to steal bases BUT
- Not having a considerable amount of power (otherwise, they'd bat third.) AND
-Do all of the above consistently, from season to season

When it comes right down to it, guys who fit this exact description don't grow on trees. It takes a phenomenal batting eye coupled with speed and a complete lack of power to pull off.

Again, it wouldn't be a terrible thing to have a guy like I mentioned above on the team. I would support it. But at what cost? Is it really *that* important? A player like that is productive, don't get me wrong, but the degree to which they are necessary is very debatable.

Lillibridge, Owens and Ramirez are all rockets on the basepaths. Getz is very good at hitting for contact based on what I can ascertain from his minor league career. These are all serviceable traits that one could look for in a top of the order hitter. Lillibridge, as recently as a year ago, was a top ten prospect in the Braves organization. Owens was improving his plate discipline dramatically in 2007 as the season wore on and was derailed by injury last season. And Getz probably has the best plate presence of all of them.

So again I ask, do we *need* a leadoff hitter?

soxfanreggie
01-03-2009, 11:51 AM
Only way I consider making this deal is if we go out and sign someone like Garland, or Garland himself-a veteran FA pitcher. Bringing Roberts aboard does allow us to go with the defensive option in CF (BA). Why would we bring someone like Roberts (who can walk after this year) in and then do nothing more to bolster the rotation?

If they truly would ask for Floyd and Getz, I would probably say no.

ViPeRx007
01-03-2009, 11:54 AM
Heck, if you're dealing with the orioles go all out: Get Roberts, Markakis, and ask for their best pitching prospect. Trade them Floyd, Getz, Dye, and whatever.

Woooohooooo

MeanFish
01-03-2009, 11:56 AM
Heck, if you're dealing with the orioles go all out: Get Roberts, Markakis, and ask for their best pitching prospect. Trade them Floyd, Getz, Dye, and whatever.

Woooohooooo

In terms of making realistic trades, the Orioles are the new Rays back when they had Chuck Lamar. Their asking prices are ridiculous.

jabrch
01-03-2009, 12:14 PM
In terms of making realistic trades, the Orioles are the new Rays back when they had Chuck Lamar. Their asking prices are ridiculous.


Why shouldn't they be? Lamar was right. Not trading away Crawford for some of the crap some people wanted to give him, just because he was the only good player on the team, ended up working out fairly well for him.

The Os have no reason to move Roberts unless someone makes it worth their while. The franchise loves him. The owner loves him. The fans love him. And he's damn good. If he walks this offseason, they take the compensation and move on. But I recall hearing he's not really looking at leaving - and would welcome a long term deal once he gets Angelos to the point where he has to pay him market value.

The Os did just trade Eric Bedard in the off season - it is not like they won't deal players if the value is right for them.

PaleHoser
01-03-2009, 12:16 PM
The only way I'd even remotely consider this if they expand the deal and include Jermaine Dye and Adam Jones.

Then money becomes a wash and includes quality young players that both teams can control salary-wise for years.

DSpivack
01-03-2009, 12:20 PM
The only way I'd even remotely consider this if they expand the deal and include Jermaine Dye and Adam Jones.

Then money becomes a wash and includes quality young players that both teams can control salary-wise for years.

I still wouldn't do that. We would still then need 3 SPs.

MeanFish
01-03-2009, 12:23 PM
Why shouldn't they be? Lamar was right. Not trading away Crawford for some of the crap some people wanted to give him, just because he was the only good player on the team, ended up working out fairly well for him.

The Os have no reason to move Roberts unless someone makes it worth their while. The franchise loves him. The owner loves him. The fans love him. And he's damn good. If he walks this offseason, they take the compensation and move on. But I recall hearing he's not really looking at leaving - and would welcome a long term deal once he gets Angelos to the point where he has to pay him market value.

The Os did just trade Eric Bedard in the off season - it is not like they won't deal players if the value is right for them.

My remark was more directed at the idea that they would throw in Markakis and others to sweeten the pot as something that simply wouldn't happen with the way they go about things.

The O's have turned down some pretty good offers for Roberts -- offers that were certainly enough to get a sane deal done. I could be biased though, since I really don't get the big deal about the guy. He's a pretty good baseball player, but not nearly what he's made out to be. Ditto for Crawford, for that matter.

WhiteSox1989
01-03-2009, 02:44 PM
This probably will not go down, and I really hope it doesn't.

I wouldn't be so against it if there wasn't already two question marks in the rotation.

thedudeabides
01-03-2009, 02:46 PM
Here's an update from the guy who started the rumor.

http://masnsports.com/2009/01/revisiting-robertsfloyd.html

It appears he's backing off a bit, but saying these names have been discussed. I'm sure you hear a lot of names in discussions, but I can't see the Sox parting with Gavin.

WhiteSox5187
01-03-2009, 03:44 PM
Obviously I'm sure that this is the sort of rumor that consisted of Kenny and McPhail talking and Kenny saying something along the lines of "I like that Roberts," "I like Floyd," or something along those lines. But I wonder if there is any chance that Kenny could interest McPhail in the likes of Broadway, Richard and Getz.

Konerko05
01-03-2009, 03:55 PM
Obviously I'm sure that this is the sort of rumor that consisted of Kenny and McPhail talking and Kenny saying something along the lines of "I like that Roberts," "I like Floyd," or something along those lines. But I wonder if there is any chance that Kenny could interest McPhail in the likes of Broadway, Richard and Getz.

No one wants Broadway. He will not have any value in a trade for Roberts. If Floyd is not in the deal, Poreda would have to be included.

soxfanreggie
01-03-2009, 04:44 PM
Poreda and Getz for Roberts...hmmmmm. A 6'6" lefty pitcher with a ton of talent is a serious trading chip, and Getz has decent potential. However, it would hinge on Kenny pulling a trigger on a deal and Roberts agreeing to an extension of at least 3-4 years.

Craig Grebeck
01-03-2009, 04:44 PM
Poreda and Getz for Roberts...hmmmmm. A 6'6" lefty pitcher with a ton of talent is a serious trading chip, and Getz has decent potential. However, it would hinge on Kenny pulling a trigger on a deal and Roberts agreeing to an extension of at least 3-4 years.
3-4 years? Gah.

areilly
01-03-2009, 04:46 PM
Obviously I'm sure that this is the sort of rumor that consisted of Kenny and McPhail talking and Kenny saying something along the lines of "I like that Roberts," "I like Floyd," or something along those lines.

This is what I was thinking, because if anything we should know by now how little stock to put in what teams are said to be discussing. I imagine the "discussion" went something like:

KW: What do you want for Brian Roberts?
AM: How about Gavin Floyd?
KW: No thanks.
AM: Whatever.

WhiteSox5187
01-03-2009, 05:03 PM
3-4 years? Gah.
If he signs a three year extension we'll have him until he's 34. There are lots of guys who are still productive at 34. I really don't understand your apprehension about acquiring one of the best leadoff hitters in the American League. Especially as how Poreda appears to be a one pitch pitcher.

If we can get Roberts without some how giving up Floyd we've set ourselves up to be very competitive for the division (and possibly for the playoffs) for the next three year. I can understand the reluctance to give up Floyd, but you can somehow get Roberts for Poreda, Richard, and Getz, boy, that's a very tempting offer.

munchman33
01-03-2009, 05:15 PM
This is what I was thinking, because if anything we should know by now how little stock to put in what teams are said to be discussing. I imagine the "discussion" went something like:

KW: What do you want for Brian Roberts?
AM: How about Gavin Floyd?
KW: No thanks.
AM: Whatever.

Except that doesn't fly with the original post, saying the Orioles balked at JUST Gavin.

Craig Grebeck
01-03-2009, 05:16 PM
If he signs a three year extension we'll have him until he's 34. There are lots of guys who are still productive at 34. I really don't understand your apprehension about acquiring one of the best leadoff hitters in the American League. Especially as how Poreda appears to be a one pitch pitcher.

If we can get Roberts without some how giving up Floyd we've set ourselves up to be very competitive for the division (and possibly for the playoffs) for the next three year. I can understand the reluctance to give up Floyd, but you can somehow get Roberts for Poreda, Richard, and Getz, boy, that's a very tempting offer.
That's not a tempting offer, at all. Why not just wait a year and sign Roberts?

WhiteSox5187
01-03-2009, 05:33 PM
That's not a tempting offer, at all. Why not just wait a year and sign Roberts?
If you want to win in 2009 it's a VERY tempting offer. If you're willing to gamble that what you have is good enough in 2009 and then sign him in 2010, that's fine. Personally I think that Roberts is going to contribute more to our winning in '09 and '10 and '11 then Poreda, Richard or Getz will.

Craig Grebeck
01-03-2009, 05:37 PM
Personally I think that Roberts is going to contribute more to our winning in '09 and '10 and '11 then Poreda, Richard or Getz will.
You overvalue him a great deal. Considering our supposed economic situation, I don't see why we'd make such a deal, forcing us to sign another pitcher and bloat the payroll. If we're trading young talent, we should acquire young talent.

KyWhiSoxFan
01-03-2009, 05:52 PM
You overvalue him a great deal. Considering our supposed economic situation, I don't see why we'd make such a deal, forcing us to sign another pitcher and bloat the payroll. If we're trading young talent, we should acquire young talent.

I agree. As I've said before, you have to value pitching highly, and I would trade pitchers very carefully, especially young ones.

If you do trade a guy like Floyd, I would want in return an everyday position player and their team's best pitching prospect. You make that trade to a team that thinks they're one starter away from the playoffs. If you can't find a team that will do that, fine, you keep him.

WhiteSox5187
01-03-2009, 05:58 PM
You overvalue him a great deal. Considering our supposed economic situation, I don't see why we'd make such a deal, forcing us to sign another pitcher and bloat the payroll. If we're trading young talent, we should acquire young talent.
If you're trading young talent it is usually because you are in a "win now" mode and trying to acquire proven talent.

We have to sign another pitcher anyways, going into 2009 with Richard and Broadway penciled in as 4-5 is not exactly a stellar rotation. But we can go out and bring in a guy like Sheets for cheap who can be our fourth starter (and even though people are going to point out he's an injury risk, which he is, he through 198 innings last year, and for some reason baseball-reference says that his average IP is 219), then you can have Broadway and that guy we got from Atlanta (I think his name is Marquez) battle out for the fifth spot.

WhiteSox5187
01-03-2009, 05:59 PM
I agree. As I've said before, you have to value pitching highly, and I would trade pitchers very carefully, especially young ones.

If you do trade a guy like Floyd, I would want in return an everyday position player and their team's best pitching prospect. You make that trade to a team that thinks they're one starter away from the playoffs. If you can't find a team that will do that, fine, you keep him.
I'm not arguing that you trade Floyd, I don't think you trade Floyd for Roberts. I'm arguing that you trade a guy like Richard and Poreda along with Getz.

soxfanreggie
01-03-2009, 06:06 PM
If we want him in free agency, it would probably cost 3 years $25 million+. I wouldn't be surprsied if a team offered him 4 and $40 million. He's someone who can bat leadoff, will give you a .280+ ave., 160+ hits, 35+ 2Bs, 40+ SB, and 3 walks for every 4 K's. He's also going to give you a decent glove in the field.

WhiteSox1989
01-03-2009, 06:49 PM
I'm not arguing that you trade Floyd, I don't think you trade Floyd for Roberts. I'm arguing that you trade a guy like Richard and Poreda along with Getz.

I don't think Poreda is going anywhere. I mean, I hope not.

WhiteSox5187
01-03-2009, 07:08 PM
I don't think Poreda is going anywhere. I mean, I hope not.
I'm not sure, but everything I've read says he's a one pitch pitcher. I don't care how good your fastball is but you have to have another pitch to do well in the major leagues.

Craig Grebeck
01-03-2009, 07:14 PM
I'm not sure, but everything I've read says he's a one pitch pitcher. I don't care how good your fastball is but you have to have another pitch to do well in the major leagues.
You haven't looked in many places.

WhiteSox1989
01-03-2009, 07:19 PM
I'm not sure, but everything I've read says he's a one pitch pitcher. I don't care how good your fastball is but you have to have another pitch to do well in the major leagues.

I mean I've basically only heard Coop and Ozzie talk about him, and as far as their concerned Poreda is pretty good. But who knows.

Daver
01-03-2009, 07:19 PM
You haven't looked in many places.

He's only got one that he can throw consistently for strikes and doesn't tip every time.

johnnyg83
01-03-2009, 07:21 PM
He's only got one that he can throw consistently for strikes and doesn't tip every time.

If he's only throwing one he doesn't tip every time ... he's tipping them all.

PalehosePlanet
01-03-2009, 08:00 PM
Except that doesn't fly with the original post, saying the Orioles balked at JUST Gavin.

The Orioles brought up Gavin's name, not the Sox (updated by the rumor starter - link below) therefore I don't see why the O's would not listen to KW's counteroffers.

PalehosePlanet
01-03-2009, 08:01 PM
The Orioles brought up Gavin's name, not the Sox (updated by the rumor starter - link below) therefore I don't see why the O's would not listen to KW's counteroffers.

Sorry, forgot the link.

http://masnsports.com/2009/01/revisiting-robertsfloyd.html

SouthSideLove
01-03-2009, 08:46 PM
According to the news ticker on the MLB Network, the White Sox and O's are apparently discussing a possibility of moving Roberts to the South Side. I certainly hope this is true, and wonder what we would have to give up to get Roberts at 2B and at the top of our order (something we desperately need).

Thoughts?

Scottiehaswheels
01-03-2009, 08:48 PM
http://www.whitesoxinteractive.com/vbulletin/showthread.php?t=108629

russ99
01-03-2009, 09:03 PM
I'm not arguing that you trade Floyd, I don't think you trade Floyd for Roberts. I'm arguing that you trade a guy like Richard and Poreda along with Getz.

If the Orioles balked at taking other teams' arguably much better prospects before, then why would they go for it now? Sure the price is a bit lower than last offseason because this is his walk year.

Our iffy prospects aren't going to acquire one of the top leadoff men in the majors, hence Floyd being a potential centerpiece...

Part of me really hopes it's not going to happen, but the other part of me that's disgusted with this offseason firesale/rebuilding so far says, go for it!

So far the logical half is winning. :D:

DSpivack
01-03-2009, 09:10 PM
If the Orioles balked at taking other teams' arguably much better prospects before, then why would they go for it now? Sure the price is a bit lower than last offseason because this is his walk year.

Our iffy prospects aren't going to acquire one of the top leadoff men in the majors, hence Floyd being a potential centerpiece...

Part of me really hopes it's not going to happen, but the other part of me that's disgusted with this offseason firesale/rebuilding so far says, go for it!

So far the logical half is winning. :D:

Even that makes no sense. If you're trying to rebuild, then you hold onto a young, good, cheap starting pitcher that you control for several more years, as opposed to an aging, expensive 2B who is in a contract year.

PalehosePlanet
01-03-2009, 09:27 PM
If the Orioles balked at taking other teams' arguably much better prospects before, then why would they go for it now? Sure the price is a bit lower than last offseason because this is his walk year.

Our iffy prospects aren't going to acquire one of the top leadoff men in the majors, hence Floyd being a potential centerpiece...

Part of me really hopes it's not going to happen, but the other part of me that's disgusted with this offseason firesale/rebuilding so far says, go for it!

So far the logical half is winning. :D:

Really? The only team I've seen prior to this rumor that was after Roberts was the Cubs and their offer had consisted of bull**** such as: Felix Pie, Ronny Cedeno, Donald Veal, etc...

Was their any other team rumored to be interested?

5187's suggestion of Poreda (much better than Veal), Richard and Getz (should be better than Ronny Cedeno, even if he only hits .225) is actually way better than anything that I heard the Cubs offered.

RKMeibalane
01-03-2009, 09:44 PM
Brian Roberts?

Everything is proceeding as I have foreseen.

DumpJerry
01-03-2009, 10:06 PM
I'm down with dealing a combo of Poreda, Marquez, Broadway and any of the flotsam utility guys of Lillibridge, Betemit, Nix for Roberts....It just appears that Baltimore thinks they can get much, much more than that.

Nix was a free agency signing. He can't be trade until June, 2009.

Kenny intended to resign Cabrera until they found out he was a jerk.
He did? He never said that when the deal went down. It was always understood that OC was a one year shot unless he really, really fell in love with Chicago. In April he complained about how cold it was here during games.

I would give the O's Floyd if they give us Palmer and Cuellar in their prime. That O's pitching staff in the 70's was something else!

Lip Man 1
01-03-2009, 11:43 PM
Dump:

At the time of the trade Kenny was directly quoted by the Chicago newspapers as saying he was hoping to work out a multi year deal with Cabrera.

Cabrera was then quoted as saying he'd be willing to consider it.

Lip

gr8mexico
01-04-2009, 12:23 AM
Nix was a free agency signing. He can't be trade until June, 2009.


He did? He never said that when the deal went down. It was always understood that OC was a one year shot unless he really, really fell in love with Chicago. In April he complained about how cold it was here during games.

I would give the O's Floyd if they give us Palmer and Cuellar in their prime. That O's pitching staff in the 70's was something else!
Kenny did want to sign Orlando when they traded for him
http://www.mlbtraderumors.com/2008/04/orlando-cabrera.html

http://www.chicagosportingzone.com/forums/index.php?showtopic=1507&st=0&p=19398&#entry19398

munchman33
01-04-2009, 12:24 AM
The Orioles brought up Gavin's name, not the Sox (updated by the rumor starter - link below) therefore I don't see why the O's would not listen to KW's counteroffers.


The Orioles said Gavin and Kenny said YES. That's why this is big news. The Orioles just wanted more.

KRS1
01-04-2009, 12:41 AM
The Orioles said Gavin and Kenny said YES. That's why this is big news. The Orioles just wanted more.


No dude. The reporter keeps backing off what he originally said, and the rumor is even lamer with less smoke than it had last night. It started as Kenny was, "willing to trade Gavin", then it was Gavin was just the starting point they should ask for Getz too, and now it's, "This rumor isn't even close, the two sides just had a chat and the names Gavin Floyd and Brian Roberts were in the conversation." Big flippity-doo, another worthless rumor thread.

munchman33
01-04-2009, 01:10 AM
No dude. The reporter keeps backing off what he originally said, and the rumor is even lamer with less smoke than it had last night. It started as Kenny was, "willing to trade Gavin", then it was Gavin was just the starting point they should ask for Getz too, and now it's, "This rumor isn't even close, the two sides just had a chat and the names Gavin Floyd and Brian Roberts were in the conversation." Big flippity-doo, another worthless rumor thread.

No dude, you're way off. He wrote that last article in response to the tremendous amount of White Sox fans constantly emailing him. He basically said that its a rumor, not that what he originally posted doesn't stand. It's still the same rumor. He just doesn't want people to get worked up over it.

He also basically called White Sox fans morons for thinking Gavin Floyd is worth more than Brian Roberts. Until I opened this thread, I didn't think most Sox fans were. Granted, it's not a vacuum and we do need pitching. But a lot of the people here aren't talking that way. There's a lot of "Brian Roberts sucks and Gavin Floyd is awesome and untouchable" going around. And that sort of talk only makes us look foolish as a fanbase.

Scottiehaswheels
01-04-2009, 01:27 AM
No dude, you're way off. He wrote that last article in response to the tremendous amount of White Sox fans constantly emailing him. He basically said that its a rumor, not that what he originally posted doesn't stand. It's still the same rumor. He just doesn't want people to get worked up over it.

He also basically called White Sox fans morons for thinking Gavin Floyd is worth more than Brian Roberts. Until I opened this thread, I didn't think most Sox fans were. Granted, it's not a vacuum and we do need pitching. But a lot of the people here aren't talking that way. There's a lot of "Brian Roberts sucks and Gavin Floyd is awesome and untouchable" going around. And that sort of talk only makes us look foolish as a fanbase.There is a slight difference in this case... Gavin Floyd is "untouchable" only because our rotation looks like total **** now, 2/5ths of the time, and minus him......

Tragg
01-04-2009, 01:31 AM
There's a lot of "Brian Roberts sucks and Gavin Floyd is awesome and untouchable" going around. And that sort of talk only makes us look foolish as a fanbase.
I haven't read much of Roberts sucks. I have read that he is a RENT, a fact that that writer consistently glosses over or mischaracterizes (if the Sox sign him to an extension, he was still a rent when we made the deal); the writer also said that Floyd's not Jake Peavy, semi-implying that that's the level of talent that Roberts should command.....speaking of foolish.

DSpivack
01-04-2009, 01:53 AM
No dude, you're way off. He wrote that last article in response to the tremendous amount of White Sox fans constantly emailing him. He basically said that its a rumor, not that what he originally posted doesn't stand. It's still the same rumor. He just doesn't want people to get worked up over it.

He also basically called White Sox fans morons for thinking Gavin Floyd is worth more than Brian Roberts. Until I opened this thread, I didn't think most Sox fans were. Granted, it's not a vacuum and we do need pitching. But a lot of the people here aren't talking that way. There's a lot of "Brian Roberts sucks and Gavin Floyd is awesome and untouchable" going around. And that sort of talk only makes us look foolish as a fanbase.

Sorry, I guess I'm a moron for thinking that Gavin Floyd has a lot more value at this point in his career than does Brian Roberts. I forgot that Orioles fans know all. Forgive me for overlooking this.

Where in what the guy wrote does he say that KW agreed to trade Floyd for Roberts? You're reading something that isn't there. Who is the guy with the blog, anyway? Some bozo for MASN whose 'sources' seem rather dubious?

oeo
01-04-2009, 04:20 AM
He also basically called White Sox fans morons for thinking Gavin Floyd is worth more than Brian Roberts. Until I opened this thread, I didn't think most Sox fans were. Granted, it's not a vacuum and we do need pitching. But a lot of the people here aren't talking that way. There's a lot of "Brian Roberts sucks and Gavin Floyd is awesome and untouchable" going around. And that sort of talk only makes us look foolish as a fanbase.

Pitching is always more valuable, then add in the prices and the ages of the two players...yeah, it's actually pretty close. A straight up deal would not be enough, but even if it was, it's not worth it. Good, cheap, young pitching is harder to find than a second baseman. Roberts isn't going to drastically change our team. He would be nice to have, but it about ends there. Therefore, from our standpoint, Gavin Floyd is worth more than Brian Roberts.

Konerko05
01-04-2009, 04:33 AM
There's a lot of "Brian Roberts sucks and Gavin Floyd is awesome and untouchable" going around. And that sort of talk only makes us look foolish as a fanbase.

I don't remember anyone saying that. The arguments in this thread are pretty reasonable.

I would love to have Roberts on the White Sox. Many Sox fans just have a problem with trading a 25 year old pitcher coming off a 17-8, 3.84, 1.26 season for one year of a second basemen. That argument makes more sense when the Sox have a viable option in Getz at 2B while only having 3 starters in the rotation.

Are you really comfortable going into next season with Buehrle and Danks as our only proven starters?

The move might make sense if the Sox could sign Roberts to a 3 year extension, trade Dye for Homer Bailey, and sign a pitcher such as Ben Sheets.

Frater Perdurabo
01-04-2009, 06:14 AM
As much as it would be nice to have a legitimate leadoff hitter, the rumored deal makes no sense for the Sox.

If the Sox want to compete this year, there's no sense in trading another starting pitcher, because gives the rotation three question marks.

If the Sox are trying to load up to be competitive for several years to come, there's no sense in trading Floyd because it means giving up a young, cost-controlled starting pitcher who seems to have figured out how to be successful in the AL.

The only way this makes sense is if KW wants to "sell high" on Floyd because he thinks Floyd had a career year in 2008, and/or is on the verge of a major injury.

The Critic
01-04-2009, 07:43 AM
Pitching is always more valuable, then add in the prices and the ages of the two players...yeah, it's actually pretty close. A straight up deal would not be enough, but even if it was, it's not worth it. Good, cheap, young pitching is harder to find than a second baseman. Roberts isn't going to drastically change our team. He would be nice to have, but it about ends there. Therefore, from our standpoint, Gavin Floyd is worth more than Brian Roberts.

This is how I see it, too. If the Sox had a wealth of starting pitching, then yeah, make the trade. But gaining Roberts by losing another starter would make the team weaker IMO, and that makes it a bad deal at this time.

Jurr
01-04-2009, 07:58 AM
This is how I see it, too. If the Sox had a wealth of starting pitching, then yeah, make the trade. But gaining Roberts by losing another starter would make the team weaker IMO, and that makes it a bad deal at this time.
Yup. Gavin Floyd was always characterized as an ace material pitcher with a little confidence issue. Last year his makeup improved (save the jokes, kiddies!), and he pitched beautifully. The kid somewhere along the way developed the stones that he had been missing.

Combine a good mentality with ace "stuff" and you have a pitcher that can end up being EXTREMELY good. These guys go for 10-20 mil per season. We have him locked up. We would have to renegotiate with Roberts. It makes ZERO sense.

Craig Grebeck
01-04-2009, 08:52 AM
He also basically called White Sox fans morons for thinking Gavin Floyd is worth more than Brian Roberts. Until I opened this thread, I didn't think most Sox fans were. Granted, it's not a vacuum and we do need pitching. But a lot of the people here aren't talking that way. There's a lot of "Brian Roberts sucks and Gavin Floyd is awesome and untouchable" going around. And that sort of talk only makes us look foolish as a fanbase.
C'mon Munch, it's really not foolish to see the problem here. Again, if we were talking about a young CFer, then I'd understand, but we're talking about a 31 year old 2B with an increasing K rate and a history of PED. Now, I don't think he'll fall off a cliff, but I think I'll take Floyd for the next 3-5 years (including next year).

Edit: Also, isn't a tad hypocritical of you to cite Floyd's peripherals (as you did earlier in the thread)? Not that I disagree -- I don't think Gavin is near as good as people make him out to be -- I just find it funny.

jamokes
01-04-2009, 09:28 AM
I love rumors and how we fans twist and turn them.

Start another one................

DumpJerry
01-04-2009, 10:08 AM
I love rumors and how we fans twist and turn them.

Start another one................
A guy I know named Kenny said that Bonds and Sosa could give us more firepower in the lineup. The guy I know named Kenny said it would definitely happen if he were the GM of the White Sox.

How about this one?

Jim Shorts
01-04-2009, 04:14 PM
Frater is, I think, the only one who said what I was thinking when I heard this....

Maybe Kenny knows something about Gavin's ceiling or health to be interested in this move. Similar to McCarthy in that he was untouchable until...

The staff has question marks, for sure, but watching the lineup with Roberts in it would be fun.

munchman33
01-04-2009, 04:34 PM
C'mon Munch, it's really not foolish to see the problem here. Again, if we were talking about a young CFer, then I'd understand, but we're talking about a 31 year old 2B with an increasing K rate and a history of PED. Now, I don't think he'll fall off a cliff, but I think I'll take Floyd for the next 3-5 years (including next year).

Edit: Also, isn't a tad hypocritical of you to cite Floyd's peripherals (as you did earlier in the thread)? Not that I disagree -- I don't think Gavin is near as good as people make him out to be -- I just find it funny.

I'm mostly worried because I don't trust Gavin. I trust him more than anyone else in house at 4 and 5...but it doesn't change my gut. Gavin got lucky a lot last year. He can have serious control issues. I'd like very much for him to keep pitching well. But I'm not sure that's going to happen.

Having the current team with Gavin vs. the current team with Roberts...I'd lean towards Gavin because of our pitching problems. But Roberts and buying low on a few veteran starters in late January would make a far superior team than Gavin and Getz. And we've got a chance to do some damage because the division is still down this year.

russ99
01-04-2009, 08:08 PM
This is how I see it, too. If the Sox had a wealth of starting pitching, then yeah, make the trade. But gaining Roberts by losing another starter would make the team weaker IMO, and that makes it a bad deal at this time.

It doesn't work both ways. If Kenny keeps Floyd, then the "reloading" plan for this year is in place.

However, if he acquires Roberts for Floyd, that plan is out the window and it's full speed contention. He'd have to bump payroll to make the rotation playoff-worthy. And Jerry might OK it too, for a player of his caliber.

I can't foresee any possibility where Kenny gets Roberts and then leaves the pitching staff as it is...

Daver
01-04-2009, 08:16 PM
It doesn't work both ways. If Kenny keeps Floyd, then the "reloading" plan for this year is in place.

However, if he acquires Roberts for Floyd, that plan is out the window and it's full speed contention. He'd have to bump payroll to make the rotation playoff-worthy. And Jerry might OK it too, for a player of his caliber.

I can't foresee any possibility where Kenny gets Roberts and then leaves the pitching staff as it is...

You also think Jerry Owens has the ability to play baseball.

russ99
01-04-2009, 08:27 PM
You also think Jerry Owens has the ability to play baseball.

What does that have anything to do with it?

Besides, I'd expect the BA fanclub to be all for a Roberts deal, since then there'd be no reason not to start him and bat him 9th.

Daver
01-04-2009, 08:29 PM
What does that have anything to do with it?



Aside from the fact that it makes your opinion suspect in general, nothing.

russ99
01-04-2009, 08:38 PM
Aside from the fact that it makes your opinion suspect in general, nothing.

Let's just say we have a difference in opinion. But if the Sox got a better option at leadoff, I'd drop Owens like a rock.

Daver
01-04-2009, 08:47 PM
Let's just say we have a difference in opinion. But if the Sox got a better option at leadoff, I'd drop Owens like a rock.

They already have a better option, and he can actually field his position! Imagine that.

Jurr
01-04-2009, 09:03 PM
They already have a better option, and he can actually field his position! Imagine that.
Who are you referring to? Getz?

WhiteSox5187
01-04-2009, 09:14 PM
Aside from the fact that it makes your opinion suspect in general, nothing.
Yes because one cannot not be wrong in one evaluation and ever be right in another. :rolleyes:

rdivaldi
01-04-2009, 09:39 PM
They already have a better option, and he can actually field his position! Imagine that.

But he still can't hit...

Daver
01-04-2009, 09:58 PM
But he still can't hit...

Alexei Ramirez can't hit?

Jurr
01-04-2009, 10:04 PM
Alexei Ramirez can't hit?
You'd really want to put Alexei at the 1 hole? Hmmm....

kittle42
01-04-2009, 10:18 PM
You'd really want to put Alexei at the 1 hole? Hmmm....

Yeah - doesn't seem like a great idea.

Tragg
01-04-2009, 11:11 PM
You'd really want to put Alexei at the 1 hole? Hmmm....

I would. Not ideal, but who do you have in mind besides perhaps Getz?
While his OBP is low, he's still a much better hitter than the usual suspects. He's also probably the best baserunner on the roster.

jabrch
01-04-2009, 11:17 PM
Hey - guess what?

It's January 4th.

rdivaldi
01-04-2009, 11:24 PM
Alexei Ramirez can't hit?

Alexei? I thought you were talking about BA.

FarmerAndy
01-05-2009, 10:17 AM
If there was certainty that the Sox could/would sign Roberts to a 4 year contract, then I would be all for the move. But there's no way I would trade Gavin for a 1 year rental.

slavko
01-05-2009, 10:28 AM
Wow! If Getz ever sees the light of day with this organization, it'll be so despite the best efforts of WSI. But the same is historically true of any player who ever came up through the Sox system since I've been posting here. Why doesn't the club just take over the Yankees roster, damn the price?

hi im skot
01-05-2009, 10:47 AM
I would. Not ideal, but who do you have in mind besides perhaps Getz?
While his OBP is low, he's still a much better hitter than the usual suspects. He's also probably the best baserunner on the roster.

If Alexei can learn to steal bases, I wouldn't be opposed to it.

Tragg
01-05-2009, 10:48 AM
If Alexei can learn to steal bases, I wouldn't be opposed to it.
I don't think rampant base-stealing is a great idea with our lineup behind him.
But once in a while and a threat would be good - maybe 25 a year.

kittle42
01-05-2009, 10:58 AM
I don't think rampant base-stealing is a great idea with our lineup behind him.
But once in a while and a threat would be good - maybe 25 a year.

C'mon, Tragg - don't you understand? We can ONLY win with the exact type of lineup we had in 2005!

hi im skot
01-05-2009, 11:13 AM
I don't think rampant base-stealing is a great idea with our lineup behind him.
But once in a while and a threat would be good - maybe 25 a year.

C'mon, Tragg - don't you understand? We can ONLY win with the exact type of lineup we had in 2005!

Not really what I was getting at, kittle. It's certainly not a necessity to have a lead-off guy who can steal 50 bags a year, but wouldn't it be nice if Ramirez lead off and knew how to steal bases? Alexei has great speed and gets on base, but he seems to struggle with stealing.

I'm not quite sure what suggesting that a base stealer leading off has to do with longing for 2005! Part Deux.

Jurr
01-05-2009, 11:14 AM
C'mon, Tragg - don't you understand? We can ONLY win with the exact type of lineup we had in 2005!
It does help to have a base stealing threat that can get on base. It makes pitchers uneasy, and really takes their focus away from hitting the mitt.

This idea is null and void if the hitters can't get on base, though.

Thome25
01-05-2009, 11:17 AM
Why is this thread still so hot? It was based on some idle speculation by a sports journalist with no real or credible sources to back his theory up.

Who knows, he could've just pulled a Greg Couch and threw some **** on the wall just to see if it stuck.

hi im skot
01-05-2009, 11:18 AM
Why is this thread still so hot? It was based on some idle speculation by a sports journalist with no real or credible sources to back his theory up.

Who knows, he could've just pulled a Greg Couch and threw some **** on the wall just to see if it stuck.

Right. There's no way this trade happens, but it's sparked some somewhat-unrelated discussion.

As pointed out by Sox Machine (http://soxmachine.com/blogs/soxmachine/archive/2009/01/03/14816.aspx), this trade makes little sense for the Sox.

kittle42
01-05-2009, 11:25 AM
Not really what I was getting at, kittle. It's certainly not a necessity to have a lead-off guy who can steal 50 bags a year, but wouldn't it be nice if Ramirez lead off and knew how to steal bases? Alexei has great speed and gets on base, but he seems to struggle with stealing.

I'm not quite sure what suggesting that a base stealer leading off has to do with longing for 2005! Part Deux.

I wasn't targeting you, skot. Just bashing on a repeated theme around these parts.

hi im skot
01-05-2009, 11:28 AM
I wasn't targeting you, skot. Just bashing on a repeated theme around these parts.

No problem. Besides, we all know that Carl Everett is the missing piece of the 2009 world championship puzzle.

decolores9628
01-05-2009, 12:36 PM
No problem. Besides, we all know that Carl Everett is the missing piece of the 2009 world championship puzzle.


He wouldn't be too happy with your sig.

Thome25
01-05-2009, 01:14 PM
He wouldn't be too happy with your sig.

Hi im Skot's sig never existed.:D:

moochpuppy
01-05-2009, 01:50 PM
From the Washington Post:

Copyrighted text removed.

I guess it all depends on what you think of Floyd....is he the read deal or should the Sox sell high while the gettin' is good?

soxfan43
01-05-2009, 01:52 PM
From the Washington Post:



I guess it all depends on what you think of Floyd....is he the read deal or should the Sox sell high while the gettin' is good?


Even the guy who orginally posted this rumor has backtracked and basically said it was just talking, no real deal was being worked on. I'm sure it was Kenny checking in with MacFail on Roberts, MacFail mentioning Floyds name, Kenny chuckling and telling MacFail he'll talk to him later.

spiffie
01-05-2009, 01:52 PM
There's a giant thread on this in What's the Score, the place where rumors are posted.

whitesox901
01-05-2009, 01:54 PM
He wouldn't be too happy with your sig.


:everett:

"Hi im Skot... If you want to meet me behind an ally, i'll give you a REAL lesson on extinction"

Sockinchisox
01-05-2009, 10:44 PM
http://www.chicagotribune.com/sports/baseball/whitesox/chi-06-white-sox-roberts-chicagojan06,0,2233078.story

whitesox901
01-05-2009, 11:18 PM
http://www.chicagotribune.com/sports/baseball/whitesox/chi-06-white-sox-roberts-chicagojan06,0,2233078.story

Good

WhiteSox5187
01-06-2009, 12:27 AM
http://www.chicagotribune.com/sports/baseball/whitesox/chi-06-white-sox-roberts-chicagojan06,0,2233078.story
I don't think there's a lot going on here anyways, but trading Floyd for Roberts is a dumb idea. Trading some of our many prospects (and/or JD) is an idea worth considering and probably one worth doing.

TheVulture
01-06-2009, 01:11 AM
:scratch:
All this talk of Roberts consistently being the best leadoff hitter in the AL has me wondering if I've suddenly entered a parallel dimension in which Ichiro Suzuki no longer exists.

guillensdisciple
01-06-2009, 01:45 AM
:scratch:
All this talk of Roberts consistently being the best leadoff hitter in the AL has me wondering if I've suddenly entered a parallel dimension in which Ichiro Suzuki no longer exists.
Yes.

Thome25
01-06-2009, 07:51 AM
http://www.chicagotribune.com/sports/baseball/whitesox/chi-06-white-sox-roberts-chicagojan06,0,2233078.story

Did anyone here actually, truly, wholeheartedly believe that the Sox were even close to sending Floyd to the Orioles for Roberts?

The rumor sounded stupid and insane from the beginning.

jabrch
01-06-2009, 09:52 AM
:scratch:
All this talk of Roberts consistently being the best leadoff hitter in the AL has me wondering if I've suddenly entered a parallel dimension in which Ichiro Suzuki no longer exists.


His OPS isn't big enough because he doesn't hit enough HRs.

asindc
01-06-2009, 10:59 AM
MASN=Mid Atlantic Sports Network......I know it well. It's the equivalent of Comcast Sports Net. They broadcast some Orioles and Nationals games.

MASN is also part of the compromise MLB reached with Angelos to allow the former Expos to move to DC. He essentially owns all the cable broadcast rights for both teams, at least in the near term.

munchman33
01-06-2009, 11:57 AM
Did anyone here actually, truly, wholeheartedly believe that the Sox were even close to sending Floyd to the Orioles for Roberts?

The rumor sounded stupid and insane from the beginning.

Actually, now that Kenny is vehemently denying it, it'll probably be done by White Sox Wednesday.