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Sockinchisox
12-27-2008, 12:35 PM
http://hotstove.mlblogs.com/archives/2008/12/reds_sign_taveras.html

2906
12-27-2008, 12:42 PM
Two year contract for Taveras which takes him right up to free agency (again, I guess). Boras works fairly well with the Reds GM. Not a surprise he didn't end up with the White Sox.

sox230
12-27-2008, 12:59 PM
It's pathetic he didn't end up with the White Sox. If it was because of Boras the Sox seriously need to get over that and stop being babies. I think it was more being cheap. And if we really do believe in Owens, then we still could have used Taveras as a good backup outfielder and as insurance in case Owens gets hurt, which clearly never happenes. This player basically fit us perfectly and could have fallen into our laps but our cheapness/stupid stance against Boras gets in the way of getting better.

WhiteSoxFan84
12-27-2008, 01:01 PM
Jerry Owens and Brian Anderson are jumping for joy since the Sox do not end up signing a more talented, more proven CF option.

Awesome.

anewman35
12-27-2008, 01:08 PM
It's pathetic he didn't end up with the White Sox. If it was because of Boras the Sox seriously need to get over that and stop being babies. I think it was more being cheap. And if we really do believe in Owens, then we still could have used Taveras as a good backup outfielder and as insurance in case Owens gets hurt, which clearly never happenes. This player basically fit us perfectly and could have fallen into our laps but our cheapness/stupid stance against Boras gets in the way of getting better.

It's funny how you assume it's being cheap, while having no idea whatsoever what we offered, or what the Reds ended up paying. How much would you have offered him?

JUribe1989
12-27-2008, 01:12 PM
I'd rather not have a good player than sign a Boras client.

Having Boras around your team at any point is way more trouble than it's worth.

2906
12-27-2008, 01:12 PM
It's pathetic he didn't end up with the White Sox. If it was because of Boras the Sox seriously need to get over that and stop being babies. I think it was more being cheap. And if we really do believe in Owens, then we still could have used Taveras as a good backup outfielder and as insurance in case Owens gets hurt, which clearly never happenes. This player basically fit us perfectly and could have fallen into our laps but our cheapness/stupid stance against Boras gets in the way of getting better.

Not really sure why anyone is surprised, or upset even.

Boras will steer his clients where they'll get the most playing time, i.e. a guaranteed spot. Taveras gets that in Cincinnati, and a chance to rebuild his market value for a fat FA contract after 2010. Plus Boras has worked reasonably well the guy who is GM in Cincy. Further, Taveras' experience is in the NL so it's no surprise he ends up there.

Maybe the White Sox should get over this anti Boras thing but there are two sides to the story and the White Sox are not the only ones who loathe him.

I never got my hopes up for Taveras because it was pretty clear to me how it was gonna work out.

jabrch
12-27-2008, 01:16 PM
It's pathetic he didn't end up with the White Sox. If it was because of Boras the Sox seriously need to get over that and stop being babies. I think it was more being cheap.

Let me get this straight...

We didn't give a two year guarenteed deal of some amount that you don't know, to a guy who just hit .251/.308/.296 in the most hitter friendly park in baseball (huge gaps for his bloopers to fall in - and with no threat of power) and you think it is being cheap?

Really?

I'm not saying you can evaluate all hitters with those stats. I know his SBs are a factor. And he plays better defense than JO (who doesn't?) But isn't it entirely possible that Williams and Guillen believe that they are better off with BA and JO than giving guaranteed money to this guy? And if that is what they believe, could you not make a reasonable arguement that they are correct?

Cheap? Really? Because they didn't give guaranteed money for two years to Willie Taveras? Really?

jabrch
12-27-2008, 01:21 PM
I'd rather not have a good player than sign a Boras client.

I'd love to have the good player. I just don't see this as a case of us not signing a good player. It's Willie Taveras. The Rockies released him because they didn't want to go to arbitration with him and be stuck giving him no less than 1.6mm. I can't blame them. There are still a bunch of FA out there who play CF who are probably better than Taveras. (none with his speed - but is his speed really useful speed or not?)

Lip Man 1
12-27-2008, 01:30 PM
Jab:

Just curious. Can you name some of the CF's you are talking about in your comments.

Lip

sox230
12-27-2008, 01:33 PM
You can't use the argument that you don't know what he was offered yet so you can't say the Sox were cheap. He was non-tendered. He is Willy Taveras, and what I mean by that is not that he is bad but that he could have been a bargain. What's the most we could have gotten, 4 mil per year? If we can give that to Linebrink, we can give that to Taveras.

jabrch
12-27-2008, 01:35 PM
What's the most we could have gotten, 4 mil per year? If we can give that to Linebrink, we can give that to Taveras.

Are you out of your freaking mind? If we offered him 4mm, he'd have JUMPED at it.

Willy Taveras is not a good hitter. He won't get HALF of that on the open market.

itsnotrequired
12-27-2008, 01:38 PM
kw blows another one!

jabrch
12-27-2008, 01:46 PM
Jab:

Just curious. Can you name some of the CF's you are talking about in your comments.

Lip

Sure...

The one that most comes to mind is Rocco Baldelli. I know his medical history, but he's no worse than Willy Taveras, who I believe is no better than the guys we have (BA/JO). And if he IS healthy, which he says he is, then he has some major upside. I'd love to hear KW sign Baldelli to a deal with some money up front to make him whole, and then huge upside for Rocco if he delivers.

I'm assuming Bradley's days in CF are gone - so I'll skip him. But I would take him over Willy.

Edmonds hit .256/.369/.568 with the Cubs last year. He's not a GGer anymore, but I'd take him over Taveras in a heartbeat.

I'm not personally a Mark Kotsay fan - but I'd take him for sure over Taveras.

That's just the guys I know I'd take over him. Either way, none of these guys are going to be stars. Nor will Taveras. I don't see how failing to sign any of them can be, as the other poster said, "cheap". These guys are bench OFs for most teams. It's unfortunate that we will likely (unless KW surprises us) be starting some bench OF in CF. I'm hoping whoever we put out there ends p playing great. But not getting Willy Taveras on a 2 year deal isn't what I call cheap.

anewman35
12-27-2008, 02:02 PM
You can't use the argument that you don't know what he was offered yet so you can't say the Sox were cheap. He was non-tendered. He is Willy Taveras, and what I mean by that is not that he is bad but that he could have been a bargain. What's the most we could have gotten, 4 mil per year? If we can give that to Linebrink, we can give that to Taveras.

So we're supposed to just throw 4 million a year at anybody, if they deserve it or not? What if we had spent 4 million on him, and he sucked - would you have been ok with that, or would you have blamed KW for being stupid?

LoveYourSuit
12-27-2008, 02:06 PM
I think Tavares would have been a nice fit for us over Jerry Owens.

He's Jerry Owens with a glove + an arm. I would take that.

FedEx227
12-27-2008, 02:11 PM
No, he's basically just Jerry Owens, who happened to play on a few good teams, including a World Series Houston team.

munchman33
12-27-2008, 02:11 PM
Judging a player on an partial season where he was coming back from injury! :bandance:

Brought to you by the same people who defended Nick Swisher's terrible season despite having nothing wrong with him (other than being bad at baseball).

LoveYourSuit
12-27-2008, 02:14 PM
No, he's basically just Jerry Owens, who happened to play on a few good teams, including a World Series Houston team.


He's got a much better glove and arm than Jerry Owens.

Craig Grebeck
12-27-2008, 02:33 PM
Judging a player on an partial season where he was coming back from injury! :bandance:

Brought to you by the same people who defended Nick Swisher's terrible season despite having nothing wrong with him (other than being bad at baseball).
For the record, I think Taveras is terrible.

cards press box
12-27-2008, 03:03 PM
The reports on Jordan Danks have been excellent. Some scouts claim he is the best athlete in the Sox system right now. Consequently, aren't the Sox looking for perhaps a two year stop gap in centerfield?

Having said that, I wonder of the Sox have a plan beyond Owens and Anderson? The Chone Figgins rumors are still flying around. Maybe the Sox will acquire Figgins, place him in CF and the leadoff slot and, in a couple of years, promote Jordan Danks and move Figgins to his accustomed super utility role.*


* And I don't use "super utility role" as a criticism. A player like Figgins who can play multiple positions well and steal some bases is very valuable, particularly on an Ozzie Guillen led club.

turners56
12-27-2008, 03:05 PM
I guess we're just going to play this off-season like we did in 07. Meh.

Craig Grebeck
12-27-2008, 03:07 PM
I guess we're just going to play this off-season like we did in 07. Meh.
This makes no sense.

turners56
12-27-2008, 03:25 PM
This makes no sense.

What doesn't make sense?

We got rid of Garcia in 07, somebody we knew that was on the downside.

I don't know if Javy is on his downside, but he sure as hell wasn't all that productive last year.

We're dumping salary and trying to get by. Sooner or later, we're going to sign the equivalent of Darrin Erstad and stick him in center and put a grinder tag on him as an excuse of why he's not all that good.

But this year and 07 are quite different as our bullpen probably isn't going to suck as much and our offense won't be as bad. That said, we're still lacking another starter in the back end of the rotation.

Also, Kenny's said that we have the talent right now on our club and they will be more productive than the guy who we'll spend $5-6 million for (AKA Willy Taveras). We tried to go cheap in 07 and we're going cheap again. This time though, it's a little easier to swallow because we have more talent on this team right now than that 07 team.

Craig Grebeck
12-27-2008, 03:28 PM
What doesn't make sense?

We got rid of Garcia in 07, somebody we knew that was on the downside.

I don't know if Javy is on his downside, but he sure as hell wasn't all that productive last year.

We're dumping salary and trying to get by. Sooner or later, we're going to sign the equivalent of Darrin Erstad and stick him in center and put a grinder tag on him as an excuse of why he's not all that good.

But this year and 07 are quite different as our bullpen probably isn't going to suck as much and our offense won't be as bad. That said, we're still lacking another starter in the back end of the rotation.

Also, Kenny's said that we have the talent right now on our club and they will be more productive than the guy who we'll spend $5-6 million for (AKA Willy Taveras). We tried to go cheap in 07 and we're going cheap again. This time though, it's a little easier to swallow because we have more talent on this team right now than that 07 team.
It's not like passing up on Willy Taveras is some great tragedy. It's December 27, there's still plenty of time to sign a guy like Rocco Baldelli.

Bobby Thigpen
12-27-2008, 03:32 PM
Better cancel the season. The Sox didn't get Willie Taveras.:rolleyes:

jabrch
12-27-2008, 03:37 PM
Better cancel the season. The Sox didn't get Willie Taveras.:rolleyes:


Well said sir. Well said.

cards press box
12-27-2008, 04:08 PM
It's not like passing up on Willy Taveras is some great tragedy. It's December 27, there's still plenty of time to sign a guy like Rocco Baldelli.


I forgot that Rocco was out there. If he is healthy, he would be a fine option in CF.

A. Cavatica
12-27-2008, 04:08 PM
I don't understand the Taveras love. He's not very good. Not worth losing sleep over.

jabrch
12-27-2008, 04:20 PM
I don't understand the Taveras love. He's not very good. Not worth losing sleep over.

To me, this isn't Taveras love as much as Sox hate. Just so shameful it comes from Sox fans. Some fans harbour an amazing level of bitterness. You'd think we were terrible the past 5 years from reading some people's take on this team.

It's Dankerific
12-27-2008, 04:23 PM
To me, this isn't Taveras love as much as Sox hate. Just so shameful it comes from Sox fans. Some fans harbour an amazing level of bitterness. You'd think we were terrible the past 5 years from reading some people's take on this team.

http://musicalstewdaily.files.wordpress.com/2008/07/broken-record.jpg

btrain929
12-27-2008, 04:39 PM
Let me get this straight...

We didn't give a two year guarenteed deal of some amount that you don't know, to a guy who just hit .251/.308/.296 in the most hitter friendly park in baseball (huge gaps for his bloopers to fall in - and with no threat of power) and you think it is being cheap?

I'm not saying Taveras is a stud or anything, but he played hurt throughout 2008, and even did better on the road than at home, so you can't really play the Coors Field angle like you can with, say, Garrett Atkins. Why are you so sure that 2008 is closer to his true numbers than his 2007 numbers: (.320/.367) overall and (.311/.365) on the road?

jabrch
12-27-2008, 04:47 PM
I'm not saying Taveras is a stud or anything, but he played hurt throughout 2008, and even did better on the road than at home, so you can't really play the Coors Field angle like you can with, say, Garrett Atkins. Why are you so sure that 2008 is closer to his true numbers than his 2007 numbers: (.320/.367) overall and (.311/.365) on the road?

I'm not. But I can't understand why anyone would be complaining about not giving 2 years (when there was no reason for anyone to do that since he was under control for 2 years regardless of if the $ was guaranteed) for a guy who is, at best, nothing more than a slap and tickler.

I don't like his game much. But I certainly dont' see why the original poster had to jump all over the "cheap" thing. There are lots of smart reasons to not offer Willy Taveras a two year, guaranteed deal, that don't conclude with, "The Sox are Cheap". I wouldn't have been furious if we signed him to a deal for close to the league minimum for 1 year. But if he was getting, as the OP suggested, 4mm per, "because if we could give it to Linebrink, we could give it to him" - I'd have really started to wonder what the heck is going on.


When a poster (not you Train) uses phrases like "cheap" and "pathetic" to describe the failure to sign Willie Taveras, it really makes me wonder.

btrain929
12-27-2008, 04:49 PM
I'm not. But I can't understand why anyone would be complaining about not giving 2 years (when there was no reason for anyone to do that since he was under control for 2 years regardless of if the $ was guaranteed) for a guy who is, at best, nothing more than a slap and tickler.

I don't like his game much. But I certainly dont' see why the original poster had to jump all over the "cheap" thing. There are lots of smart reasons to not offer Willy Taveras a two year, guaranteed deal, that don't conclude with, "The Sox are Cheap". I wouldn't have been furious if we signed him to a deal for close to the league minimum for 1 year. But if he was getting, as the OP suggested, 4mm per, "because if we could give it to Linebrink, we could give it to him" - I'd have really started to wonder what the heck is going on.


When a poster uses phrases like "cheap" and "pathetic" to describe the failure to sign Willie Taveras, it really makes me wonder.

Haha, understandable, and agreed.

Konerko05
12-27-2008, 04:53 PM
This is good news.

jabrch
12-27-2008, 04:54 PM
Haha, understandable, and agreed.

Seriously...if you told me we just signed him to a 1 year, 1mm deal... I wouldn't have been upset. If you told me we gave him 2 years at 4mm per, I wouldn't have believed you for a second.

I have no idea what he will do this year. My crystal ball is broke - and I am a terrible guesser. I know what he has done in the past. I know what he looks like at the plate. I just don't see him offering much more than BA. And I see him costing way more. There are still some attractive FAs out there if we are dishing out 2 year deals at 4mm per, "because we did it for Linebrink".

LoveYourSuit
12-27-2008, 05:14 PM
To me, this isn't Taveras love as much as Sox hate. Just so shameful it comes from Sox fans. Some fans harbour an amazing level of bitterness. You'd think we were terrible the past 5 years from reading some people's take on this team.


I don't understand why this is news to you. How long have you been cheering or watching sports?

It happens everywhere, even Yankee fans bitch and cry and that franchise is perhaps the best one all time in all of sports. So Sox fans are not allowed to bitch and cry about their team? How are they (the Sox) better than everyone else where you can't bitch and talk negative about them?

I am a very negative fan, no doubt. That's because in my lifetime I have seen more failure by my favorite team than I have seen good. I invest 162 days/nights of my life each year on TV or in peson to cheer hard for my guys. In the end, I am 100% with them. You being so happy happy every offseason compared to me being "pissy pants" doesn't make you a better fan than I am. In the end, we are all pulling from the same end of the rope.

As for Taveras .... who cares. The guy is not going to make or break the Sox. Same way a guy like Cabrera wasn't going to do it either as project 4th starter. Is Taveras better than Owens/Anderson? In my book slightly yes, but how much and for what price?

Brian26
12-27-2008, 05:20 PM
It's pathetic he didn't end up with the White Sox.

I see it as a blessing.

kittle42
12-27-2008, 05:23 PM
I am a very negative fan, no doubt. That's because in my lifetime I have seen more failure by my favorite team than I have seen good. I invest 162 days/nights of my life each year on TV or in peson to cheer hard for my guys. In the end, I am 100% with them. You being so happy happy every offseason compared to me being "pissy pants" doesn't make you a better fan than I am. In the end, we are all pulling from the same end of the rope.

We disagree a lot, but not here.

It's Dankerific
12-27-2008, 05:25 PM
We disagree a lot, but not here.

Times 3 here.

turners56
12-27-2008, 06:44 PM
It's not like passing up on Willy Taveras is some great tragedy. It's December 27, there's still plenty of time to sign a guy like Rocco Baldelli.

Yeah then you're depending on a guy who's been injured for a good portion of the last 5 years to do your bidding in center. I'm not saying that Willy Taveras is a god, but he's probably the best option at the position based on our economic situation.

soxfanreggie
12-27-2008, 06:52 PM
I'd rather have Taveras than Baldelli. You never know what you're going to get with Baldelli right now.

Lip Man 1
12-27-2008, 06:53 PM
Jab:

I have no problems with either Baldelli or Kotsey but realistically what are the chances of getting them given this off season and the comments from the organization?

I hope I'm wrong but I'm getting this feeling that Kenny isn't blowing smoke this time.

If that's true this season could be the biggest gamble in his G.M. career.

Lip

A. Cavatica
12-27-2008, 07:27 PM
I'd rather have Anderson than Taveras, considering offense, defense, and salary. Seriously.

It's Dankerific
12-27-2008, 07:31 PM
I'd rather have Anderson than Taveras, considering offense, defense, and salary. Seriously.

Anderson isn't an option. we all know that, so we have to look at taveras (or whoever) vs. Owens

kittle42
12-27-2008, 08:46 PM
I'd rather have Anderson than Taveras, considering offense, defense, and salary. Seriously.

Maybe Garrett Anderson. :D:

A. Cavatica
12-27-2008, 08:48 PM
Anderson isn't an option. we all know that, so we have to look at taveras (or whoever) vs. Owens

I'd rather fire the manager than load up the team with more Erstads.

btrain929
12-27-2008, 08:49 PM
Maybe Garrett Anderson. :D:

Or Anderson Silva.

jabrch
12-27-2008, 09:19 PM
Jab:

I have no problems with either Baldelli or Kotsey but realistically what are the chances of getting them given this off season and the comments from the organization?

I hope I'm wrong but I'm getting this feeling that Kenny isn't blowing smoke this time.

If that's true this season could be the biggest gamble in his G.M. career.

Lip

Good Q Lip...and I have no idea... Either way - in my eyes, this gamble pales in comparison to trading Carlos Lee...

WhiteSoxFan84
12-27-2008, 09:46 PM
I am a very negative fan, no doubt. That's because in my lifetime I have seen more failure by my favorite team than I have seen good. I invest 162 days/nights of my life each year on TV or in peson to cheer hard for my guys. In the end, I am 100% with them. You being so happy happy every offseason compared to me being "pissy pants" doesn't make you a better fan than I am. In the end, we are all pulling from the same end of the rope.

Post of the Year.

LoveYourSuit
12-27-2008, 10:12 PM
Good Q Lip...and I have no idea... Either way - in my eyes, this gamble pails in comparison to trading Carlos Lee...


Any gamble will pail in comparison for the next 10 years because Kenny won that championship in 2005.

We all have to give Kenny and management the benefit of doubt because of this. It's hard for me to say that as the negative person I am, but I have no choice.

WhiteSoxFan84
12-28-2008, 04:19 AM
Any gamble will pail in comparison for the next 10 years because Kenny won that championship in 2005.

We all have to give Kenny and management the benefit of doubt because of this. It's hard for me to say that as the negative person I am, but I have no choice.

Do we have to? And if so, for how long? Why can't we become a demanding fanbase and start asking for more and more? Why do we have to sit back and say "oh well, he's proven us wrong before with some of his trades"? He's also proven us right in doubting some of his trades (Todd Ritchie, Billy Koch, Roberto Alomar x2, and Nick Swisher just to name a few). Do we start questioning him after it's too late (his firing - WHENEVER that would be, IF ever, he may just retire or quit)? I see a big problem with that. I like addressing anything I see wrong with things before we get to that point.

Now, I may end up being wrong and people would be able to point that out and change my opinion. But to just sit back and take **** because we "have to"? I don't know. That kind of **** may fly on the North Side, but I am not happy with it being fed to me on the South Side. That World Series 4 seasons ago was awesome, but as we enter 2009, I think the expiration date on Kenny's "Honeymoon Period" has passed.

Before people respond with "wow... now you want Kenny fired??", realize this; I don't want Kenny Williams fired. I just don't want to hear people saying "we have to trust Kenny because of 2005, because of Gavin Floyd, because of John Danks, because of Carlos Quentin, etc." because then I can come back with "well we can also not trust Kenny because of 2002, 2003, 2004, 2006, 2007, 2008, Nick Swisher, Todd Ritchie, etc.". The good players acquired may outweigh the good prospects dealt for bad players and heck, even the 6 unsuccessful seasons maybe outweighted by 1 World Series, but how many more until the scale evens out? How many more until the scale shifts completely?

I said it weeks ago and I'll still say it now, "In Kenny We Trust", but because I choose to. Not because I have to. And truthfully, if 2009 smells even a bit like 2007... that motto goes out the door and Kenny's ass should be on the hot seat.

You want to be the happy-go-lucky "hey, everything's going to be fine" type? I'll buy you a Cubs hat and you can go cheer for the other team in town. I want my "Win... or Die Trying" attitude back. This offseason, SO FAR, has been lacking the "winning" and the "die trying" parts. And what worries me the MOST is that this team still has no direction. Even after the acquisitions of Tyler Flowers, Jeff Marques, etc., we still are a fairly older team with a below average farm system. Basically, and especially for the foreseeable future, we have to rely on pure luck (a lot of players have career years, nobody getting injured for the whole season, catching almost all the breaks, other teams underperforming, other teams dealing with a lot of injuries, etc.) if we want to be successful in the postseason.

(And no, this isn't because of the Sox not signing Daniel Cabrera or Willy Taveras. It's because we haven't signed/acquired a 4th starter, 5th starter, true leadoff man at either 2B or CF, a legit 3B w/ a respectable glove, and a very solid defensive/backup catch with a month and a half left until pitcher's and catcher's report)

LoveYourSuit
12-28-2008, 04:49 AM
Do we have to? And if so, for how long?

I think for 10 years.


I am going to try to start playing more towards the "company line folks." Play the wait and see game once again.

WhiteSoxFan84
12-28-2008, 04:52 AM
I think for 10 years.


I am going to try to start playing more towards the "company line folks." Play the wait and see game once again.

That's fine. If we (the doubters) are wrong, and the team succeeds, awesome. I know I will come out and praise Kenny and call myself an idiot. But what happens if we are right? Do we play the wait and see game again in 2010?

russ99
12-28-2008, 12:22 PM
And no, this isn't because of the Sox not signing Daniel Cabrera or Willy Taveras. It's because we haven't signed/acquired a 4th starter, 5th starter, true leadoff man at either 2B or CF, a legit 3B w/ a respectable glove, and a very solid defensive/backup catch with a month and a half left until pitcher's and catcher's report)

Something tells me this roster gutting/payroll cutting is more the Chairman's doing than Kenny's, though there is an obvious need to get younger and more athletic. I just thought we'd do that by dealing one of the big three this year, keep close to the same payroll level in order to compete, and turn the roster over in the course of several seasons.

As far as I'm concerned, the 4-year championship window is closed and we're seeing a pre-2004 mentality from the Sox brass. I didn't like it then, and I don't like now.

Hopefully Kenny's not done, but as time goes by I'm getting the sinking feeling that he might be... If that's the case I'd be willing to give this prospect-laden lineup a chance, but not one involving the same level of ticket commitment as previous contending seasons.

Craig Grebeck
12-28-2008, 12:24 PM
As far as I'm concerned, the 4-year championship window is closed and we're seeing a pre-2004 mentality from the Sox brass. I didn't like it then, and I don't like now.

And what is that mentality? Spending didn't get us a championship -- a dominant starting five and one of the flukiest bullpens of all time did.

jabrch
12-28-2008, 01:02 PM
Something tells me this roster gutting/payroll cutting is more the Chairman's doing than Kenny's

And nobody in the media or invovled in the game (who assumedly have more inside information than Russ99) have indicated this.

Feel free to hop off the bandwagon. We will see you back in later.

Lip Man 1
12-28-2008, 01:27 PM
Sox fan 84:

It's interesting that Hal (Torn Labrum) has asked / expressed the same thing about the Sox fan base not being demanding enough.

Lip

Lip Man 1
12-28-2008, 01:29 PM
Jab:

I disagree because when Lee was traded the Sox hadn't won a World Series, been to the playoffs twice in four years, had three of the highest attendance totals in franchise history and saw TV rating pass the Cubs.

He didn't have as much to lose as right now.

That's why I said these situation, if true, will be his biggest gamble as G.M.

Lip

jabrch
12-28-2008, 01:35 PM
Jab:

I disagree because when Lee was traded the Sox hadn't won a World Series, been to the playoffs twice in four years, had three of the highest attendance totals in franchise history and saw TV rating pass the Cubs.

He didn't have as much to lose as right now.

That's why I said these situation, if true, will be his biggest gamble as G.M.

Lip


I see your point - I disagree - but I see it. He traded a a guy just off a .300/.360/.525 season for Pods and Viz - and freed up cash. That was a ballsy move that was nearly universally criticized (and I recall you leading that pack) as cheap and/or stupid.

jabrch
12-28-2008, 01:37 PM
Sox fan 84:

It's interesting that Hal (Torn Labrum) has asked / expressed the same thing about the Sox fan base not being demanding enough.

Lip

To me, there is a difference between being demanding going into a season, and being ignorant in terms of juding the results. If anything short of a WS is a failure in someone's eyes, I think that's a bad way to judge a franchise with our financial resources.

Lip Man 1
12-28-2008, 06:58 PM
Jab:

Actually I was glad to see Lee go, not only was he a butcher in the field but he was totally and completely brain dead in a baseball sense.

I still remember his outright stupidity in trying to steal 3rd base, with the tying run at the plate, not once, but twice in the same season in the early part of this decade. Naturally he was thrown out both times which cause Hawk to go ballistic.

In fact (you can look it up) that move so distressed Manager Gandhi that he said he was going to bench him over it. (The benching lasted all of one game which spoke volumes over Gandhi's judgment...)

That one move in my opinion, doesn't even come in the same universe as putting at risk the major gains both on the field, off the field and in the advertising / marketing area that the Sox have had since the start of the 2006 season.

Again that's assuming the status quo stands on opening day as the roster looks right now.

I hope it doesn't but more and more as every day goes by and the Sox remain on the sidelines, I think that Kenny for once is saying exactly what he means.

Lip

Lip Man 1
12-28-2008, 07:01 PM
Jab:

Actually the thrust of Hal's comments / column (and he can naturally correct me if I got it wrong) was Sox fans saying that they were now "satisfied" after winning one World Series since 1917.

Hal said (paraphrasing) 'the hell with that, I want a dynasty and all Sox fans should not be satisfied with one World Series winner in almost a century.'

Hal is a very, very astute man.

Lip

jabrch
12-28-2008, 09:39 PM
Jab:

Actually the thrust of Hal's comments / column (and he can naturally correct me if I got it wrong) was Sox fans saying that they were now "satisfied" after winning one World Series since 1917.

Hal said (paraphrasing) 'the hell with that, I want a dynasty and all Sox fans should not be satisfied with one World Series winner in almost a century.'

Hal is a very, very astute man.

Lip

I think some that "satisfaction" was prose, more than reality. And I wish we had more balance between "satisfaction" and complete misery.

jabrch
12-28-2008, 09:41 PM
Jab:

Actually I was glad to see Lee go, not only was he a butcher in the field but he was totally and completely brain dead in a baseball sense.


All that aside - how did you not (when that deal was made) find it "cheap"? I can't imagine you weren't all over JR pocketing wads of cash.

LoveYourSuit
12-29-2008, 12:29 AM
All that aside - how did you not (when that deal was made) find it "cheap"? I can't imagine you weren't all over JR pocketing wads of cash.


You have no clue what you are talking about.

The Carlos trade was made with the plan to re-spend the money saved from his big salary. Many moves followed once Kenny was able to free up the cash. So money saved was money going back out again to make the product better. They filled about 4-5 holes with the money saved from C Lee.

Any Sox fan that could not do the math at the time is a complete dumb ass. There was nothing to bitch about in that scenario.

WhiteSoxFan84
12-29-2008, 02:14 AM
To me, there is a difference between being demanding going into a season, and being ignorant in terms of juding the results. If anything short of a WS is a failure in someone's eyes, I think that's a bad way to judge a franchise with our financial resources.

Explain to me how we went from a World Series, to a 90 win team, to a 72 win team? That was pathetic. That 2007 season could've been caused by many different factors but the fact that our organization had/has no depth at all is a joke. How the hell do the Twins keep doing it with 1/3 or 1/2 our payroll? Their GM and their scouts are better than ours, that's how. You can argue that all you want and you can bring up the World Series if you want, the fact of the matter is this; the way the Twins do business is more likely to lead them to a World Series than the way we do business. It just so happens that we got one and they didn't.

I don't want to use the L word when explaining what happened in 2005, but a ****load went our way and I don't care one bit how it happened as long as we got what we got. But, an educated MLB observer would say that the Twins have a better chance of winning a World Series before the White Sox than the complete opposite taking place. Their formula is simply better and if they were to get an owner that would give GM Bill Smith more freedom financially, oh boy, we wouldn't see a division title for a while.

My point is this; it's not about "win a World Series every year or be looked at as failures", no. I want us to have some direction and a "formula" (or whatever you want to call it) that will help us avoid seasons like 2007 as much as possible. Our farm system is shot. Offensively, outside of Carlos Quentin and Alexei Ramirez we really don't have much to look forward to in the long run. We have some hot offensive prospects (Flowers and Beckham) but until they are in the majors and put together a solid, full season, they're nothing more than POTENTIAL major leaguers. Pitching wise we are looking a bit better but we still have a whiles to go. John Danks and Gavin Floyd impressed us all last season but I've seen many of you question if Floyd's 2008 campaign was a fluke (which I doubt). That being said, we have a few promising pitching prospects (Aaron Poreda, Jeff Marquez, Clayton Richard, etc.) but like I said about the offensive prospects, until they've done what Danks and Floyd have done, they're nothing more than POTENTIAL major leagues. Alongside Floyd and Danks is Mark Buehrle (who will be around until 2011) and even if these 3 do a good job for 3+ years, they'll need help not only in the rotation but also in the pen. Do we have any hot prospects that are relievers in the minors that will come up and help us out? I don't think so. Will we go out and spend the money on TOP relievers to setup for/replace Bobby Jenks (who already has trade rumors circulating around him)? We know the answer to that question. And if anyone brings up Scott Linebrink or Octavio Dotel after I asked for TOP relievers, you're crazy.

And I hate to say it, but I have a bad feeling about 2009. We were overacheivers in 2008, not many can argue that. Detroit has nowhere to go but up. Minnesota will be back and better than last year (that young rotation picks up one year of experience). Cleveland and Kansas City will probably struggle. Then there's us.... I'm hoping for the best, but I can only expect what the team on paper projects to produce. And right now, 81 wins seems like the ceiling (I know the postseason is over but Kenny really seems like he's going to stick to his guns this offseason and nothing under the radar will go down).

Lip Man 1
12-29-2008, 09:56 AM
Jab:

You were the one who said that I was all over JR for being cheap. I was simply saying that I don't recall making any comments along those lines and explained why.

Feel free to try to examine the archives to find out if I did or did not. I'm heading to Colorado in a few hours on a road trip and don't have the time.

Lip

jabrch
12-29-2008, 10:11 AM
Jab:

You were the one who said that I was all over JR for being cheap. I was simply saying that I don't recall making any comments along those lines and explained why.

Feel free to try to examine the archives to find out if I did or did not. I'm heading to Colorado in a few hours on a road trip and don't have the time.

Lip

I don't have the time either - busy with work... I am just surprised. This one seems like one you would be all over. Not saying you were - I don't remember.

Anyhow - travel safe...

spawn
12-29-2008, 10:33 AM
I don't have the time either - busy with work... I am just surprised. This one seems like one you would be all over. Not saying you were - I don't remember.

Anyhow - travel safe...
I found his initial post. It was pretty fair and balanced:

http://www.whitesoxinteractive.com/vbulletin/showpost.php?p=545160&postcount=140

spiffie
12-29-2008, 10:50 AM
That's fine. If we (the doubters) are wrong, and the team succeeds, awesome. I know I will come out and praise Kenny and call myself an idiot. But what happens if we are right? Do we play the wait and see game again in 2010?
Great setup you have there. **** all over countless threads bitching about Williams, and then when his stuff pans out come along waving the pom-poms and say "gee, I'm sure glad I was wrong!"

Since Williams became a GM a grand total of one GM has won more titles than him. He certainly has not been perfect, but his record of acheivement, considering the resources available to him, has been about as good as any GM in the league during the last decade. I don't know what more anyone could want. He has dug up more unexpected stars than any GM has a right to over the last 5-6 years.

I hope wherever you work your boss doesn't hold you to the standards that you hold KW to. Since apparently anything short of robotic perfection is a failure.

WhiteSoxFan84
12-29-2008, 12:44 PM
Great setup you have there. **** all over countless threads bitching about Williams, and then when his stuff pans out come along waving the pom-poms and say "gee, I'm sure glad I was wrong!"

Since Williams became a GM a grand total of one GM has won more titles than him. He certainly has not been perfect, but his record of acheivement, considering the resources available to him, has been about as good as any GM in the league during the last decade. I don't know what more anyone could want. He has dug up more unexpected stars than any GM has a right to over the last 5-6 years.

I hope wherever you work your boss doesn't hold you to the standards that you hold KW to. Since apparently anything short of robotic perfection is a failure.

Consistency and balance. Look at our win totals under his tenure...
2001 - 83
2002 - 81
2003 - 86
2004 - 83
2005 - 99
2006 - 90
2007 - 72
2008 - 89
Avg - 85

Which two seasons don't fit? The 2005 and 2007 seasons. One can make the argument that the 2007 season was due to injuries, bad decisions, etc. and that it won't happen again but can't the same person also make the argument of 2005 being a mirage with players having career years, almost every "break" going our way, etc. and that won't happen again?

And I may not be asking for a World Series Title every season, but more t han 2 division titles in an 8 year span would be appreciated. I don't need to tell you that the White Sox play in Chicago, a very big market (shared/split or not). Two division titles in 8 years may work in Kansas City, Oakland, Tampa Bay, etc., but in Chicago, we should be doing a lot more of those division championship celebrations than we have been doing lately. A World Series celebration more often than not would be pretty neat also.

spiffie
12-29-2008, 12:57 PM
Consistency and balance. Look at our win totals under his tenure...
2001 - 83
2002 - 81
2003 - 86
2004 - 83
2005 - 99
2006 - 90
2007 - 72
2008 - 89
Avg - 85

Which two seasons don't fit? The 2005 and 2007 seasons. One can make the argument that the 2007 season was due to injuries, bad decisions, etc. and that it won't happen again but can't the same person also make the argument of 2005 being a mirage with players having career years, almost every "break" going our way, etc. and that won't happen again?

And I may not be asking for a World Series Title every season, but more t han 2 division titles in an 8 year span would be appreciated. I don't need to tell you that the White Sox play in Chicago, a very big market (shared/split or not). Two division titles in 8 years may work in Kansas City, Oakland, Tampa Bay, etc., but in Chicago, we should be doing a lot more of those division championship celebrations than we have been doing lately. A World Series celebration more often than not would be pretty neat also.
Looks pretty damn consistent to me. Nearly every year the Sox have had a reasonable chance to win a division.

But hey, the Yankees and Red Sox are right there if you feel like you're just not getting enough out of your baseball fan experience. I hear Red Sox Nation is a mighty big country.

WhiteSoxFan84
12-29-2008, 01:09 PM
Looks pretty damn consistent to me. Nearly every year the Sox have had a reasonable chance to win a division.

But hey, the Yankees and Red Sox are right there if you feel like you're just not getting enough out of your baseball fan experience. I hear Red Sox Nation is a mighty big country.

Not even close. Games back of division champion...
2001 - 8
2002 - 13.5
2003 - 4
2004 - 9
2005 - 0
2006 - 6
2007 - 24.5
2008 - 0

I'll give you 2003 and 2006 as being "reasonable". Clearly we won the division in 2005 and 2008. So 50% of the time we had a "reasonable chance" of winning the division or we won the division. That might not be so bad, but considering the weak division we've been fortunate enough to be in, we should have won the division at least 50% of the time and had more "reasonable chances". Last time I checked, 50% is nowhere close to "nearly every". And I'm sorry, but what a loser mentality to even say something like the part you said that is in bold.

You can recommend I jump to the Red Sox or the Yankees. I recommend you start asking for more from your team and not taking the "yes man" position that a lot of people around here take.
Who's right? Me. Who's wrong? You. But who cares? We both do. :redneck

jabrch
12-31-2008, 12:25 PM
Rotoworld says, Taveras gets a two-year contract worth $6.25 million.


Are they serious? The Rocks were willing to give him away, arbitration elig, for nothing. And the Reds give him a 2 year deal? For 6mm?

That's insane.

WhiteSoxFan84
12-31-2008, 02:16 PM
Rotoworld says, Taveras gets a two-year contract worth $6.25 million.


Are they serious? The Rocks were willing to give him away, arbitration elig, for nothing. And the Reds give him a 2 year deal? For 6mm?

That's insane.

I couldn't believe it when I read it myself. Man, the Reds are really, really dumb. Maybe we can get Jay Bruce and Homer Bailey for Jermaine Dye?

At that price, I wouldn't have signed Taveras either. He was due to make $1.95mm if the Rockies hadn't non-tendered him. I assumed he'd get a deal paying him less annually and that is why I thought he'd probably sign with us.