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ohiosoxfan
12-23-2008, 08:23 AM
I caught a little bit of Kenny Williams on XM this morning with Holden Kushner and Jim Duquette. He made it sound like he was basically done with acquistions and that we needed to get younger so Fields, Getz, Anderson, Owens are how we get younger. He also made it sound like Marquez, Richard, Poreda are better choices than a 4-6 million dollar veteran because they have more "upside" than the veteran.

He also was very high on Viciedo, even though he tried to temper that enthusiasm, you could tell that they have high hopes for him and that he should make an impact in the near future.

One funny note was when he was asked about the Sox' success in Cuba, he said we just aren't going to Cubans R Us and taking stuff off the shelves, we are actually scouting and signing the guys they think can really play. He was upset with Rosenthal who said the Sox were surprised by the development of Danks, Floyd, Alexei, and TCQ. Kenny said NO, Rosenthal was surprised, we weren't.

Kenny is always a good interview.

Rocky Soprano
12-23-2008, 08:30 AM
He was upset with Rosenthal who said the Sox were surprised by the development of Danks, Floyd, Alexei, and TCQ. Kenny said NO, Rosenthal was surprised, we weren't.

Kenny is always a good interview.

Nice! :gulp:

LoveYourSuit
12-23-2008, 08:34 AM
"In Kenny we trust." "As is," this team wins 72 games at best.

God, I wish the guy would just stop doing interviews.

itsnotrequired
12-23-2008, 08:38 AM
"In Kenny we trust." "As is," this team wins 72 games at best.

God, I wish the guy would just stop doing interviews.

:rolleyes:

LoveYourSuit
12-23-2008, 08:42 AM
:rolleyes:

Yup, it ruins my Holiday spirit thinking about the back end of our rotation.

kittle42
12-23-2008, 08:48 AM
:rolleyes:

No need to eyeroll. Yes, play the games, the games aren't played on paper, etc., etc., but as comprised right now, this team is not looking strong.

Yes, it's Dec. 23. Yes, we can and will wait. But if Williams sticks to what he's saying and does nothing else, all the people holding their tongues now waiting for the "under the radar" junk to happen will really be spewing venom come the first week of April.

voodoochile
12-23-2008, 09:05 AM
"In Kenny we trust." "As is," this team wins 72 games at best.

God, I wish the guy would just stop doing interviews.

Oh shut up.... we get it. You're smarter than Kenny. You're a better GM than Kenny. You have more inside knowledge than Kenny and you are psychic about the upcoming season's results...

Marqhead
12-23-2008, 09:10 AM
Oh shut up.... we get it. You're smarter than Kenny. You're a better GM than Kenny. You have more inside knowledge than Kenny and you are psychic about the upcoming season's results...

Hear hear! :gulp:

spawn
12-23-2008, 09:11 AM
Oh shut up.... we get it. You're smarter than Kenny. You're a better GM than Kenny. You have more inside knowledge than Kenny and you are psychic about the upcoming season's results...
:thumbsup: :gulp:

AZChiSoxFan
12-23-2008, 09:18 AM
"In Kenny we trust." "As is," this team wins 72 games at best.

God, I wish the guy would just stop doing interviews.

Because Javy and Swish were so vital to the team's success last year.

:rolleyes:

areilly
12-23-2008, 09:18 AM
Oh shut up.... we get it. You're smarter than Kenny. You're a better GM than Kenny. You have more inside knowledge than Kenny and you are psychic about the upcoming season's results...

Yes, because only a genius like Kenny Williams could start with a shaky team that won a crappy division and do nothing to improve it for next year. I didn't hear the interview, but for a guy who talks so much about winning now to already say he's done dealing is at least a tad depressing.

areilly
12-23-2008, 09:19 AM
Because Javy and Swish were so vital to the team's success last year.

:rolleyes:

Because Javy and Swish were the only flaws in the team design last year.

:rolleyes:

Rocky Soprano
12-23-2008, 09:25 AM
Yes, because only a genius like Kenny Williams could start with a shaky team that won a crappy division and do nothing to improve it for next year. I didn't hear the interview, but for a guy who talks so much about winning now to already say he's done dealing is at least a tad depressing.

Show me where Kenny said he's done dealing.

hi im skot
12-23-2008, 09:27 AM
Oh shut up.... we get it. You're smarter than Kenny. You're a better GM than Kenny. You have more inside knowledge than Kenny and you are psychic about the upcoming season's results...

http://blogs.smh.com.au/mashup/images/applause.gif

itsnotrequired
12-23-2008, 09:33 AM
Yup, it ruins my Holiday spirit thinking about the back end of our rotation.

sounds like you are easily dissapointed

No need to eyeroll. Yes, play the games, the games aren't played on paper, etc., etc., but as comprised right now, this team is not looking strong.

Yes, it's Dec. 23. Yes, we can and will wait. But if Williams sticks to what he's saying and does nothing else, all the people holding their tongues now waiting for the "under the radar" junk to happen will really be spewing venom come the first week of April.

the eyeroll is my favorite smilie

Noneck
12-23-2008, 09:35 AM
Yes, it's Dec. 23. Yes, we can and will wait. But if Williams sticks to what he's saying and does nothing else, all the people holding their tongues now waiting for the "under the radar" junk to happen will really be spewing venom come the first week of April.

I doubt they will, The company men here will always find a way to justify the moves or non moves made.

itsnotrequired
12-23-2008, 09:36 AM
Yes, because only a genius like Kenny Williams could start with a shaky team that won a crappy division and do nothing to improve it for next year. I didn't hear the interview, but for a guy who talks so much about winning now to already say he's done dealing is at least a tad depressing.

why do people continue to take any gm's statements at face value during the off-season?

Rocky Soprano
12-23-2008, 09:37 AM
I doubt they will, The company men here will always find a way to justify the moves or non moves made.

And the others will bitch about EVERYTHING because they know better than all gm's.

areilly
12-23-2008, 09:37 AM
He made it sound like he was basically done with acquistions and that we needed to get younger so Fields, Getz, Anderson, Owens are how we get younger.

Show me where Kenny said he's done dealing.

You're going to have to clear this up with my source above. And like I said, I didn't hear the interview so he might have actually meant "yes, we're going to get some proven talent in here."

Noneck
12-23-2008, 09:38 AM
And the others will bitch about EVERYTHING because they know better than all gm's.
Yup and something in the middle will be correct.

Rocky Soprano
12-23-2008, 09:41 AM
You're going to have to clear this up with my source above. And like I said, I didn't hear the interview so he might have actually meant "yes, we're going to get some proven talent in here."

I'm sorry but I don't put faith in someones opinion of what it "sounds like." I haven't seen Kenny come out and say we are done making moves and that the team is ready for spring training. Yes there is a possibility he is done, but it being December 23, I doubt it.

Rocky Soprano
12-23-2008, 09:43 AM
Yup and something in the middle will be correct.

Being in the middle, to me, means wait and see what happens...

:D:

hi im skot
12-23-2008, 09:43 AM
the eyeroll is my favorite smilie

http://i79.photobucket.com/albums/j146/sschaaf/eyeroll.gif

Learn it. Know it. Live it.

Noneck
12-23-2008, 09:44 AM
Being in the middle, to me, means wait and see what happens...

:D:
Wait, see and hope for more is the middle for me.

Thome25
12-23-2008, 09:44 AM
"In Kenny we trust." "As is," this team wins 72 games at best.

God, I wish the guy would just stop doing interviews.

Do you and Craig Grebeck enjoy being pessimistic? Go. Away. PLEASE.:rolleyes:

kittle42
12-23-2008, 09:51 AM
Do you and Craig Grebeck enjoy being pessimistic? Go. Away. PLEASE.:rolleyes:

They're HomeFish's twin brothers.

NLaloosh
12-23-2008, 09:52 AM
Yes, because only a genius like Kenny Williams could start with a shaky team that won a crappy division and do nothing to improve it for next year. I didn't hear the interview, but for a guy who talks so much about winning now to already say he's done dealing is at least a tad depressing.

When is Kenny Williams ever done dealing? He makes more deals than any GM and that's a fact.

itsnotrequired
12-23-2008, 09:56 AM
I'm sorry but I don't put faith in someones opinion of what it "sounds like." I haven't seen Kenny come out and say we are done making moves and that the team is ready for spring training. Yes there is a possibility he is done, but it being December 23, I doubt it.

and even if kw told the media he was done dealing, it wouldn't mean a damn thing.

areilly
12-23-2008, 09:57 AM
When is Kenny Williams ever done dealing? He makes more deals than any GM and that's a fact.

I'm talking about deals of substance, not trading for another Nick Swisher or Rob Mackowiak.

spawn
12-23-2008, 09:58 AM
I'm talking about deals of substance, not trading for another Nick Swisher or Rob Mackowiak.
Oh, you mean like John Danks or Gavin Floyd, or Carlos Quentin?

Oh wait...let me guess. Those acquisitions were either "lucky" or "more the exception than the norm".

People here seem to have the same bull**** arguments over and over and over and over...

CashMan
12-23-2008, 10:06 AM
Oh, you mean like John Danks or Gavin Floyd, or Carlos Quentin?

Oh wait...let me guess. Those acquisitions were either "lucky" or "more the exception than the norm".

People here seem to have the same bull**** arguments over and over and over and over...


These people bitch, bitch and bitch some more, no matter what Kenny does. My question to those people is: Why do follow the Sox then?

Frater Perdurabo
12-23-2008, 10:06 AM
They're HomeFish's twin brothers.

Is HomeFish the older brother of the twins? Or are they really triplets? :scratch:

areilly
12-23-2008, 10:09 AM
Oh, you mean like John Danks or Gavin Floyd, or Carlos Quentin?

Oh wait...let me guess. Those acquisitions were either "lucky" or "more the exception than the norm".

People here seem to have the same bull**** arguments over and over and over and over...

You mean those weren't more the exception than the norm? You mean every deal works out that well? You mean every scrap heap acquisition turns out to be an MVP or Cy Young candidate? Silly me. I must have been watching a different team all these years.

If those deals weren't exceptional, we wouldn't be having this conversation and I would be joining the grinder/grit/play the games/2005/In Kenny We Trust chorus in a heartbeat. Likewise, Danks and Floyd required miserable showings in 2007 before the success of 2008; if KW's going to talk so much **** about winning now, let's see something that suggests he means it. But if you'd call Wilson Betemet and Jayson Nix the answer to last year's problems, well, I salute your optimism.

voodoochile
12-23-2008, 10:10 AM
Oh, you mean like John Danks or Gavin Floyd, or Carlos Quentin?

Oh wait...let me guess. Those acquisitions were either "lucky" or "more the exception than the norm".

People here seem to have the same bull**** arguments over and over and over and over...

And don't you just love how the acquisition of Nick Swisher a guy with a careero OPS of .830+ in a pitchers park has become the equivalent of trading for Rob Mackowiak?

Hindsight is always 20/20, but the most negative thing you can say about the Swisher trade WHEN IT HAPPENED is that KW might have overpaid. Now in hindsight it doesn't look like he gave up much but Swisher had an awful year so suddenly he isn't worth a bag of used baseballs.

At least they got one thing right there was a serious lack of substance, but it was in the analysis done before and during the creation of the post, not in the trade for Swisher...

areilly
12-23-2008, 10:16 AM
These people bitch, bitch and bitch some more, no matter what Kenny does. My question to those people is: Why do follow the Sox then?

Because it's more interesting than following golf.

PennStater98r
12-23-2008, 10:16 AM
Oh shut up.... we get it. You're smarter than Kenny. You're a better GM than Kenny. You have more inside knowledge than Kenny and you are psychic about the upcoming season's results...

You know voodoo - I don't think Suit's post was exactly right, but I don't think blind faith in Kenny with the line-up as stands is the answer either. There are problems with the pitching - there's no doubt this is going to be a learning year...

Rocky Soprano
12-23-2008, 10:19 AM
Because it's more interesting than following golf.

But why the Sox, why not follow another team?

Marqhead
12-23-2008, 10:21 AM
It's December 23rd. The offseason is not over yet.

If I want to read all this damn negativity about everything the White Sox do (and in every single thread not to mention) I'll pick up a Chicago newspaper.

If you don't like what KW is doing, fine, you don't have to shove it down our throats in every. single. thread.

areilly
12-23-2008, 10:22 AM
But why the Sox, why not follow another team?

Some combination of nostalgia, geographic convenience and civic pride. Same as anyone else.

WhiteSox5187
12-23-2008, 10:25 AM
I really wish I knew why people felt so comfortable with having massive question marks at third, second, center and two even larger question marks (if not down right holes!) at the back end of the rotation.

Yes, yes, I know Danks and Floyd came thru big last year. But Danks had one major league season under his belt and fell apart in the second half of that season. Richard and Broadway don't have anywhere near the experience that Danks and Floyd had going into 2008. I really don't think it's going too far out on a limb to say "As we are constructed right now we have a lot of holes, and if those holes backfire we are not a contending team."

WhiteSox5187
12-23-2008, 10:26 AM
It's December 23rd. The offseason is not over yet.

If I want to read all this damn negativity about everything the White Sox do (and in every single thread not to mention) I'll pick up a Chicago newspaper.

If you don't like what KW is doing, fine, you don't have to shove it down our throats in every. single. thread.
So your philosophy is essentially "If you don't like what Kenny is doing, shut the hell up, that is why we have the media"? Interesting...

russ99
12-23-2008, 10:30 AM
When is Kenny Williams ever done dealing? He makes more deals than any GM and that's a fact.

I certainly hope this is the case.

As of now, I don't like the status of this team one bit. Too many question marks. I can stomach a few on faith, but 4 in the lineup and 2 in the rotation is too much for me.

As for those of us not drinking the "Kids Can Play '09" Kool-aid, we can really only voice our displeasure in one way, not buying tickets. We're not sheep, like Cub fans...

We'll see how things go until February. I haven't given up hope yet.

Paulwny
12-23-2008, 10:32 AM
Some combination of nostalgia, geographic convenience and civic pride. Same as anyone else.


For those of us who see all the ??? on this team, THANK YOU, a perfect explaination.

Marqhead
12-23-2008, 10:33 AM
So your philosophy is essentially "If you don't like what Kenny is doing, shut the hell up, that is why we have the media"? Interesting...

Not quite, but I can see how it would be miscontrued that way. I just feel there are certain people on this board who have a ridiculous agenda against Kenny, and don't feel anything he does is adequate. It's over exaggerated pessimism.

I understand this is a message board, I don't think there is any reason someone can't speak out against what Kenny is doing, I just get frustrated by it at times.

Rocky Soprano
12-23-2008, 10:36 AM
For those of us who see all the ??? on this team, THANK YOU, a perfect explaination.

I see a ton of question marks, you dont see me blasting the team every chance I get.

spawn
12-23-2008, 10:38 AM
I understand this is a message board, I don't think there is any reason someone can't speak out against what Kenny is doing, I just get frustrated by it at times.
People around here bitch just to bitch about something. I've stopped getting frustrated by it. No matter what, people are going to say KW isn't doing they consider is the best for the team. These same people will say those of us that support KW consistently fall back on 2005, and they're right. I mean, hell, we haven't won a World Series in 3 whole years!!! KW is the worst GM in the history of GM's.

WhiteSox5187
12-23-2008, 10:39 AM
Not quite, but I can see how it would be miscontrued that way. I just feel there are certain people on this board who have a ridiculous agenda against Kenny, and don't feel anything he does is adequate. It's over exaggerated pessimism.

I understand this is a message board, I don't think there is any reason someone can't speak out against what Kenny is doing, I just get frustrated by it at times.
There is an equal number of people who would blindly follow Kenny off of a cliff.

Look, Kenny is a good GM, don't get me wrong, and he shut me up with every trade he made last year (except the Swisher trade which I was heavily against!). But we're throwing Broadway and Richard in a sink or swim type of situation here and I know everyone is excited about Danks and Floyd, but that's not going to happen every time. In fact, that is probably the exception rather than the rule. The people who say "Well, it worked last year when we had two big question marks with Danks and Floyd," I would say yes, that's true. But it didn't work in 2002, 2003, 2004, or 2007 when we had just one question mark at the back end of the rotation. Now we have TWO. So, we'll see. But there are still some moves I'd like to see us make, namely getting more pitching!

Also, this team STILL doesn't have a bona fide leadoff hitter as far as I'm concerned. That's another gamble.

white sox bill
12-23-2008, 10:40 AM
Why play the games? Just give us our assumed 4th place trophy.

voodoochile
12-23-2008, 10:40 AM
You know voodoo - I don't think Suit's post was exactly right, but I don't think blind faith in Kenny with the line-up as stands is the answer either. There are problems with the pitching - there's no doubt this is going to be a learning year...

Sure at some positions there's going to be some young kids - most notably Fields at third. At least there's a LOT of depth to back up those kids even if it is more kids.

I do have blind faith that KW is doing the most with the resources he has each and every year. He's already stated he has less resources this year than he has in the past. Given the tickets sold last year and the downturn in the economy, I believe him. That means less payroll and given the raises that are already built in as well as the signing of Viciedo, most of the money he recouped by trading Swisher and Vazquez and allowing Crede and OC to walk is probably gone. I won't be surprised if he pulls another trade or manages to sign some stopgap FA veteran starter (really the one thing this team seems to be lacking) before March rolls around - something he has actively done on a regular basis since taking over.

KW deserves our trust because he's proven he wants to win and will do whatever it takes to win including trading every blinking piece of the farm system away if he feels it's the right move. He's won a WS with a payroll around $75M and then spent big money to keep the core together and improve it only to fall just short of the playoffs then he's won another division title two years after that.

The constant negativity from the wannabe-GM's/Moronotti's in training gets old. Then next summer if/when the Sox are in the thick of ANOTHER pennant race these same debbie downers will be all over the bandwagon. It's weak. It's lame. It's flat out irritating and it's borderline trolling (would I allow Timberwolf to come here and spew that crap? **** no!). I'm not banning anyone for acting like an ass, but I'll be damned if I'll sit quietly by while they trash these boards with their pearls of wisdom...

spawn
12-23-2008, 10:41 AM
I see a ton of question marks, you dont see me blasting the team every chance I get.
I don't know...consider me a moron, but I actually want to see what these young guys are capable of, even if it means the team fails to make the playoffs, or even finishes below .500. People here have been bitching about how old and slow this team is, yet they don't want to see what the team looks like with an infusion of youth and speed.

WhiteSox5187
12-23-2008, 10:45 AM
Why play the games? Just give us our assumed 4th place trophy.

Ugh, you've totally missed the point that people like me are trying to raise.

But then again, this place has become so divided that if you even suggest there are flaws with this team you can apparently see the future and are constantly reminded how Kenny was right in 2008 (in SOME cases, the people who ripped the Swisher trade were ultimately proven right, still 2008 was a great year for Kenny) and 2005. If you dare suggest a hint of optimism you're forgetting that Kenny is the worst GM and his disasters of 2002, 2003, 2004, and 2007.

I don't think that people like me, kittle42 or anyone else who is pointing out the flaws with this team as it stands on paper right now are willing to call it a season. Nor are we predicting a 2007 like season. It's just that as it stands right now, the look of this team on paper is not very strong. Now if it proves to be strong on the field, we'll admit we were wrong. But if this is a 2007 like season (even a 2002 like season) I think a lot of us (and people who are defending all of Kenny's moves right now) will be saying "Boy, you know, we had a lot of question marks heading into the season. I wonder why Kenny didn't see any of this coming?"

voodoochile
12-23-2008, 10:47 AM
So your philosophy is essentially "If you don't like what Kenny is doing, shut the hell up, that is why we have the media"? Interesting...

No, the philosophy is: it's December 23rd. Opening day is 3.5 months away. There is plenty of time to make changes and even if they don't get made there is reason to have some faith that Getz and Fields (at the least) won't be completely horrible at the jobs they have been given. After that there is Lillebridge, Betamit, Nix and possibly Beckham and even Viciedo to go through before the Sox are flat out of possibilities.

If no trades/signings occur and ALL of these options fail, feel free to rant all you want, but 3.5 months before any of them even set foot on the field it's a bit early to be crying and bitching. That's the point. It's not that you or anyone isn't allowed to point out perceived problem areas, but at least give it a chance to play out before running screaming out the door off the bandwagon...

WhiteSox5187
12-23-2008, 10:48 AM
Sure at some positions there's going to be some young kids - most notably Fields at third. At least there's a LOT of depth to back up those kids even if it is more kids.

I do have blind faith that KW is doing the most with the resources he has each and every year. He's already stated he has less resources this year than he has in the past. Given the tickets sold last year and the downturn in the economy, I believe him. That means less payroll and given the raises that are already built in as well as the signing of Viciedo, most of the money he recouped by trading Swisher and Vazquez and allowing Crede and OC to walk is probably gone. I won't be surprised if he pulls another trade or manages to sign some stopgap FA veteran starter (really the one thing this team seems to be lacking) before March rolls around - something he has actively done on a regular basis since taking over.

KW deserves our trust because he's proven he wants to win and will do whatever it takes to win including trading every blinking piece of the farm system away if he feels it's the right move. He's won a WS with a payroll around $75M and then spent big money to keep the core together and improve it only to fall just short of the playoffs then he's won another division title two years after that.

The constant negativity from the wannabe-GM's/Moronotti's in training gets old. Then next summer if/when the Sox are in the thick of ANOTHER pennant race these same debbie downers will be all over the bandwagon. It's weak. It's lame. It's flat out irritating and it's borderline trolling (would I allow Timberwolf to come here and spew that crap? **** no!). I'm not banning anyone for acting like an ass, but I'll be damned if I'll sit quietly by while they trash these boards with their pearls of wisdom...
So again, if we don't blindly follow Kenny we should just shut the **** up and are akin to being like Timberwolf? I don't know voodoo, I think there's good cause for skeptism with this team as it is constructed right now, I guess everyone else who sees it that way is just a border line troll though, huh?

jabrch
12-23-2008, 10:48 AM
The constant negativity from the wannabe-GM's/Moronotti's in training gets old. Then next summer if/when the Sox are in the thick of ANOTHER pennant race these same debbie downers will be all over the bandwagon. It's weak. It's lame. It's flat out irritating and it's borderline trolling (would I allow Timberwolf to come here and spew that crap? **** no!). I'm not banning anyone for acting like an ass, but I'll be damned if I'll sit quietly by while they trash these boards with their pearls of wisdom...

Well said! It's unfortunate we have so many Sox fans trolling our own board. It is what it is - that's what some people do for fun.

voodoochile
12-23-2008, 10:50 AM
So again, if we don't blindly follow Kenny we should just shut the **** up and are akin to being like Timberwolf? I don't know voodoo, I think there's good cause for skeptism with this team as it is constructed right now, I guess everyone else who sees it that way is just a border line troll though, huh?

No, at least you are being semi-rational in the way you are approaching things. LYS has been hammering every thread he participates in with his constant negative bull****. There's a difference. If you can't see the difference between what you are typing and what LYS repeatedly types then I can't help you.

Having a rational discussion about options/possibilities/concerns is one thing. Predicting doom and gloom 3.5 months before opening day is another...

jabrch
12-23-2008, 10:54 AM
So again, if we don't blindly follow Kenny we should just shut the **** up and are akin to being like Timberwolf? I don't know voodoo, I think there's good cause for skeptism with this team as it is constructed right now, I guess everyone else who sees it that way is just a border line troll though, huh?

If you can't see the difference between discussing a weakness/issue with the team, and the constant and incessant bitching and moaning, and the factizing of matters of complete and total opinion, then I guess there isn't much I can say.

Imagine two posts...

1) Who is going to be our 5th starter? Let's discuss the various candidates and options.

2) Marquez sucks. Broadway sucks. Poreda sucks. Richard sucks.

Now tell me you REALLY can't figure out that one of them is legitimately discussing a weakness of the team while the other is complete trolling with absolutely nothing but an opinion (not a balanced one either) to base it on. Now imagine if the same person posts #2 every single day for let's say 10 years. Do you REALLY not see how that is trolling? Really?

WhiteSox5187
12-23-2008, 10:58 AM
No, at least you are being semi-rational in the way you are approaching things. LYS has been hammering every thread he participates in with his constant negative bull****. There's a difference. If you can't see the difference between what you are typing and what LYS repeatedly types then I can't help you.

Having a rational discussion about options/possibilities/concerns is one thing. Predicting doom and gloom 3.5 months before opening day is another...
I don't really read everything that everyone types on this board. My own writing was more or less spurred by someone who said that kittle42 was an overwhelming pessimist. Something that I found amusing because at this time last year kittle42 was probably saying the same things about me. I know that there is a lot of time left to make additional changes and all that, but again, I don't think it's predicting doom and gloom to say "if this team as constructed right now is the same one we trot out on the field on opening day 2009, we might be in for a long and rather unpleasant season." I think that is just saying "this team appears to have some serious holes that I hope we address between now and opening day." But it also leaves open the possibility that we are dead wrong. I know from my experience as Spring Training gets closer and closer I wind up becoming more and more optimistic about the team - and at times have been proven horribly wrong early in the season.

WhiteSox5187
12-23-2008, 11:02 AM
If you can't see the difference between discussing a weakness/issue with the team, and the constant and incessant bitching and moaning, and the factizing of matters of complete and total opinion, then I guess there isn't much I can say.

Imagine two posts...

1) Who is going to be our 5th starter? Let's discuss the various candidates and options.

2) Marquez sucks. Broadway sucks. Poreda sucks. Richard sucks.

Now tell me you REALLY can't figure out that one of them is legitimately discussing a weakness of the team while the other is complete trolling with absolutely nothing but an opinion (not a balanced one either) to base it on. Now imagine if the same person posts #2 every single day for let's say 10 years. Do you REALLY not see how that is trolling? Really?
Let me ask you this though, if that person is to say "Well you know, if we look at their stuff, and how they've done against teams previously and minor league numbers, I think it is safe to conclude that Marquez isn't very good, neither is Broadway. Poreda has one pitch and Richard tends to get nailed the second time through a line up," and they say that every day, would THAT be trolling? Is it just as much as trolling to say "Marquez, Broadway, Poreda and Richard are going to account for 80 wins for us next year with Buerhle, Danks and Floyd accounting for the other 80; hence we will go 160-2," every day until opening day, would that be trolling? If they just blindly state optimistic things regardless of results?

Perhaps my internet lexicon is inherently weak, but does being a troll explicitly imply being negative?

thedudeabides
12-23-2008, 11:04 AM
No, at least you are being semi-rational in the way you are approaching things. LYS has been hammering every thread he participates in with his constant negative bull****. There's a difference. If you can't see the difference between what you are typing and what LYS repeatedly types then I can't help you.

Having a rational discussion about options/possibilities/concerns is one thing. Predicting doom and gloom 3.5 months before opening day is another...

Well said. I think people like LYS just find a shtick and run with it, if for nothing else to be noticed. I really can't understand why there are just a few posters who find it mandatory to take over, what feels like every thread, and spit out the same venom over and over again. At times, it makes it hard to have a rational discussion.

I mean, not everything has to be so black and white. Yet, some people, regardless of the side of the argument they're on, just feel so strongly that their opinions are the only way.

I trust Kenny, but it doesn't mean I won't question him. People really need to step back sometimes and look at how the current management team operates. I really feel like every offseason, this board has the same exact panick reaction to what is going on. With the exception of 2006.

Zisk77
12-23-2008, 11:06 AM
why do people continue to take any gm's statements at face value during the off-season?

Because it fits their agenda.

spawn
12-23-2008, 11:06 AM
I don't really read everything that everyone types on this board. My own writing was more or less spurred by someone who said that kittle42 was an overwhelming pessimist.
Who in this thread said kittle42 was an overwhelming pessimist? I think I missed that post. I do see one where Craig Grebeck and LYS are deemed the pessimists, not kittle42.

oeo
12-23-2008, 11:08 AM
No need to eyeroll. Yes, play the games, the games aren't played on paper, etc., etc., but as comprised right now, this team is not looking strong.

Yes, it's Dec. 23. Yes, we can and will wait. But if Williams sticks to what he's saying and does nothing else, all the people holding their tongues now waiting for the "under the radar" junk to happen will really be spewing venom come the first week of April.

72 wins, my ass. The team, as is, in this division, is at least a .500 team.

spawn
12-23-2008, 11:09 AM
Perhaps my internet lexicon is inherently weak, but does being a troll explicitly imply being negative?
Yes, it does. Internet trolls are negative, and do their best to incite arguments with other posters. Being overly positive doesn't make you a troll. That's a pollyanna.

Flight #24
12-23-2008, 11:21 AM
No, the philosophy is: it's December 23rd. Opening day is 3.5 months away. There is plenty of time to make changes and even if they don't get made there is reason to have some faith that Getz and Fields (at the least) won't be completely horrible at the jobs they have been given. After that there is Lillebridge, Betamit, Nix and possibly Beckham and even Viciedo to go through before the Sox are flat out of possibilities.

If no trades/signings occur and ALL of these options fail, feel free to rant all you want, but 3.5 months before any of them even set foot on the field it's a bit early to be crying and bitching. That's the point. It's not that you or anyone isn't allowed to point out perceived problem areas, but at least give it a chance to play out before running screaming out the door off the bandwagon...

IMO there is a difference between saying "There are serious question marks on this team and Kenny seems to be hinting or stating that there aren't major moves to come, so if that holds, this team seems likely to struggle because you can't count on so many ?s to pan out", and "The season is lost".

But there is a knee-jerk reaction that seems to come that any criticism of the team, even one based on a statement made by the GM that the team as currently constructed is likely to be the one taking the field, is "dark clouding". I'm sure that's at least partially a reaction to true dark clouding (i.e. "The season is lost"), but there should be some middle ground.

No, OC, Javy, Swish didn't contribute as much as one would have hoped at the start of the season, but they also didn't suck. And at the moment, they have been replaced with kids who may well suck in 2008, even if they go on to have solid major league careers. In fact, the odds are that they will suck because most kids struggle in their initial ML stint. The TCMs of this world are few and far between. Things tend to turn out more like Danks/Floyd/TCQ who had varying degrees of OK to horrific starts to their ML careers.

Is it likely that Kenny will stick with this roster into ST, I would hope not. But if as he has hinted, he does, I would not expect this team to be much more than around .500. Sure - they could be world-beaters, but starting 5 ?s (CF, 2B, 3B, #4, #5) is not generally a recipe for success in that year.

jabrch
12-23-2008, 11:23 AM
Let me ask you this though, if that person is to say "Well you know, if we look at their stuff, and how they've done against teams previously and minor league numbers, I think it is safe to conclude that Marquez isn't very good, neither is Broadway. Poreda has one pitch and Richard tends to get nailed the second time through a line up," and they say that every day, would THAT be trolling?

That's a better discussion than what many have - but still it is a reach in my eyes to conclude that all of these guys won't be any good. The trolling I am specifically discussing is the people who have concluded that players who are still considered prospects with certain strengths absolutely suck and have no chance to be successful. People said this last year about Danks and Floyd. How'd it work out for them?


I'd say Is it just as much as trolling to say "Marquez, Broadway, Poreda and Richard are going to account for 80 wins for us next year with Buerhle, Danks and Floyd accounting for the other 80; hence we will go 160-2," every day until opening day, would that be trolling? If they just blindly state optimistic things regardless of results?

Perhaps my internet lexicon is inherently weak, but does being a troll explicitly imply being negative?

Yeah - trolling refers specifically to being negative. Proposing what you said above wouldn't be trolling. It would be ignorant. Now the two aren't mutually exclusive - anyone can be ignorant, troll or not.

LoveYourSuit
12-23-2008, 11:51 AM
Oh shut up.... we get it. You're smarter than Kenny. You're a better GM than Kenny. You have more inside knowledge than Kenny and you are psychic about the upcoming season's results...

What a childish respond Voodoo.

I have never said I am smarter than Kenny or a better GM. What the hell, I'm not even a GM to begin with.

I'm just a fan. I frustrated fan to see what our back of the rotation is right now and will be if Kenny goes with his word that "he is done making moves."

Excuse me for not displaying my White Sox Pom Poms like 90% of the posters here anytime Kenny opens his mouth and infers that "he is done making moves."

Tragg
12-23-2008, 11:58 AM
As is, this will be an absolutely atrocious defensive team, with some big offensive holes (leadoff). If you couple the bad defense with 2 unkowns at the last 2 rotation spots, it could lead to a really bad season.
I'd say there's a 30%-40% chance that this team could win 75 or under.
It could also win 85.
Considering that Owens is not a better hitter than Anderson, the Sox would be better off plalying Anderson and getting his great D and letting Getz lead off (and pray)....but Owens plays Ozzie-ball, so we'll go with the bad D and bad O.

Rockin Robin
12-23-2008, 12:18 PM
"In Kenny we trust." "As is," this team wins 72 games at best.

God, I wish the guy would just stop doing interviews.

This is oddly reminiscent of last year's "the tigers are trying to compete with us" interview reaction.

Just let them play the effing season before we start whining.

Rocky Soprano
12-23-2008, 12:40 PM
I'm just a fan. I frustrated fan to see what our back of the rotation is right now and will be if Kenny goes with his word that "he is done making moves."


PLEASE show me when he said those words.

Kenny never talks about what is planning on doing, what do you expect?
Maybe he should start posting here to let us know and get our permission.

Everyone has the right to be frustrated, even if its only DECEMBER 23!

Milw
12-23-2008, 12:48 PM
But if you'd call Wilson Betemet and Jayson Nix the answer to last year's problems, well, I salute your optimism.
Sort of like how Scott Podsednik and Tadahito Iguchi were the answer to the problems of the 2004 Sox, eh?

Oh, wait...

Milw
12-23-2008, 12:57 PM
You know, come to think of it, KW has had an awful lot of "exceptions to the rule." Several per year, in fact.

Scott Podsednik
Tadahito Iguchi
Bobby Jenks
Jose Contreras
Matt Thornton
John Danks
Gavin Floyd
Alexei Ramirez
Carlos Quentin

At some point you haters may need to alter your defintion of "the rule," eh?

SouthSideLove
12-23-2008, 01:02 PM
KW is probably taking more interviews as a ploy to possibly throw off other teams, and the free agent market. The problem is that everyone knows that KW is not going to go out and sign anyone else, so this ploy (if true) is useless.

I am starting to wonder what his plan is exactly. If you want to get younger, fine. But getting younger doesn't mean only having three solid pitchers, and two open rotation spots. You can't count on getting another Floyd or Danks, and we still have to see if these guys are legit or just lightening in a bottle.

IMO, we need to get someone like Brad Penny, while the price is still right!

btrain929
12-23-2008, 01:10 PM
Sure at some positions there's going to be some young kids - most notably Fields at third. At least there's a LOT of depth to back up those kids even if it is more kids.

I do have blind faith that KW is doing the most with the resources he has each and every year. He's already stated he has less resources this year than he has in the past. Given the tickets sold last year and the downturn in the economy, I believe him. That means less payroll and given the raises that are already built in as well as the signing of Viciedo, most of the money he recouped by trading Swisher and Vazquez and allowing Crede and OC to walk is probably gone. I won't be surprised if he pulls another trade or manages to sign some stopgap FA veteran starter (really the one thing this team seems to be lacking) before March rolls around - something he has actively done on a regular basis since taking over.

1) Agreed. We're in a better situation than '07 when we had Andy Gonzalez and Alex Cintron getting consistent AB's.
2) That I'm not going to buy. I've noted on here a few times that when you compare the money we've shed to the player raises/new signings, we've saved around 18MIL in comparison to 2008 player contracts. Even if the numbers I have aren't exact on the dot, or there are minor league changes I'm not accounting for, no way it accounts for another 18MIL. They are pulling back payroll in anticipation of the economy's effect on this season's attendance: I'll agree with that. But I won't agree that all the money they've saved away is already spent, no way in hell.

jabrch
12-23-2008, 01:13 PM
IMO, we need to get someone like Brad Penny, while the price is still right!

A 6+ ERA last year, over age 30, with shoulder pains....

The Dodgers just paid 2mm to not have to pay him 8mm in the season.

I don't see why Penny is any better of a solution than the kids.

hawkjt
12-23-2008, 01:15 PM
Yea, I think Kenny learned his lesson about being honest to the media last off season and now I take everything he says with a grain of salt. His plan can change on a dime or more likely, his plan is not what he is saying.

I will be surprised if he does not pick up a starter. I think it is very possible he does want to give Fields and Owens a chance along with BA and Getz.

Nothing to get too excited about here,gang...100 long days to opening day....lot of stuff could happen in 100 days.

Kenny knows what he is doing...cuz he has proven it.

munchman33
12-23-2008, 01:17 PM
Put me in the "we'll be alright" corner if we go into the season as is. I happen to think Clayton will easily match (and surpass) the **** season Javy had last year, and we didn't really do well out of the 5 spot last year either.

whitesox901
12-23-2008, 01:31 PM
I think KW has a plan, people honestly think he's done? I think he'll pick a starter and I bet he picks up a piece that no one is going to expect. Call me optimistic

areilly
12-23-2008, 01:36 PM
You know, come to think of it, KW has had an awful lot of "exceptions to the rule." Several per year, in fact.

Scott Podsednik
Tadahito Iguchi
Bobby Jenks
Jose Contreras
Matt Thornton
John Danks
Gavin Floyd
Alexei Ramirez
Carlos Quentin

At some point you haters may need to alter your defintion of "the rule," eh?

I like how your list only focuses on 2005, 2006 and 2008. Here are some other exceptional acquisitions of the KW era:

Ryan Bukvich
Boone Logan
Mike MacDougal
David Aardsma
Andrew Cisco
Nick Masset
Billy Koch
Royce Clayton
Todd Ritchie
Scot Schoeneweis
Darrin Erstad
Andy Gonzalez
Luis Terrero
Nick Swisher
Bret Prinz

LoveYourSuit
12-23-2008, 01:39 PM
I like how your list only focuses on 2005, 2006 and 2008. Here are some other exceptional acquisitions of the KW era:

Ryan Bukvich
Boone Logan
Mike MacDougal
David Aardsma
Andrew Cisco
Nick Masset
Billy Koch
Royce Clayton
Todd Ritchie
Scot Schoeneweis
Darrin Erstad
Andy Gonzalez
Luis Terrero
Nick Swisher
Bret Prinz


Those never happened Areilly ... you should know better than that.

spawn
12-23-2008, 02:01 PM
I like how your list only focuses on 2005, 2006 and 2008. Here are some other exceptional acquisitions of the KW era:

Ryan Bukvich
Boone Logan
Mike MacDougal
David Aardsma
Andrew Cisco
Nick Masset
Billy Koch
Royce Clayton
Todd Ritchie
Scot Schoeneweis
Darrin Erstad
Andy Gonzalez
Luis Terrero
Nick Swisher
Bret Prinz

Those never happened Areilly ... you should know better than that.
Yep. Kenny Williams is the only GM in baseball to make a bad trades and acquisitions. Crucify the son of a bitch!!! :rolling:

Here's the funny thing...all the high salaried players the Yankees have signed so far this millenium have contributed to 0 championships. You people are funny. :rolling:

ETA: I just LOVE the tags for this thread! :thumbsup:

areilly
12-23-2008, 02:05 PM
Here's the funny thing...all the high salaried players the Yankees have signed so far this millenium have contributed to 0 championships. You people are funny. :rolling:

Who said anything about emulating the Yankees? The Red Sox' high salaried free agents have brought home two, so your blind condemnation of paying for talent just flew out the window anyway.


Side note: all the high-salaried players the Sox have signed so far have also contributed to 0 championships (MB, PK, JG, JC and JD all got their raises after '05).

Side note II: The Yankees have in fact won a championship this millenium. So, you know, I don't really get what your point was.

LoveYourSuit
12-23-2008, 02:07 PM
Yep. Kenny Williams is the only GM in baseball to make a bad trades and acquisitions. Crucify the son of a bitch!!! :rolling:

Here's the funny thing...all the high salaried players the Yankees have signed so far this millenium have contributed to 0 championships. You people are funny. :rolling:

ETA: I just LOVE the tags for this thread! :thumbsup:


I don't know why you and others think it's an Agenda against KW, when it is not. It's an agenda vs the entire organization based on ZERO improvements they have done so far to what IMO was a very average team in 2008 that was lucky to back into a (bad) division title.

Look at all my past posts and I am as big of a supporter of KW as there is. But I don't like the direction of this offseason so far. Call it what it is, no improvement is no improvement.

itsnotrequired
12-23-2008, 02:09 PM
Yep. Kenny Williams is the only GM in baseball to make a bad trades and acquisitions. Crucify the son of a bitch!!! :rolling:

Here's the funny thing...all the high salaried players the Yankees have signed so far this millenium have contributed to 0 championships. You people are funny. :rolling:

ETA: I just LOVE the tags for this thread! :thumbsup:

half those "terrible" acquisitions were either free-agents that were paid nothing or later-round draft picks that were paid nothing. where is the outrage over 2003 3rd round bust clint king? kw should be shagged.

the only problem with the tag feature is that it only allows me to add two.

SBSoxFan
12-23-2008, 02:11 PM
I really wish I knew why people felt so comfortable with having massive question marks at third, second, center and two even larger question marks (if not down right holes!) at the back end of the rotation.

Yes, yes, I know Danks and Floyd came thru big last year. But Danks had one major league season under his belt and fell apart in the second half of that season. Richard and Broadway don't have anywhere near the experience that Danks and Floyd had going into 2008. I really don't think it's going too far out on a limb to say "As we are constructed right now we have a lot of holes, and if those holes backfire we are not a contending team."

As is, this will be an absolutely atrocious defensive team, with some big offensive holes (leadoff). If you couple the bad defense with 2 unkowns at the last 2 rotation spots, it could lead to a really bad season.
I'd say there's a 30%-40% chance that this team could win 75 or under.
It could also win 85.
Considering that Owens is not a better hitter than Anderson, the Sox would be better off plalying Anderson and getting his great D and letting Getz lead off (and pray)....but Owens plays Ozzie-ball, so we'll go with the bad D and bad O.

Put me in the "we'll be alright" corner if we go into the season as is. I happen to think Clayton will easily match (and surpass) the **** season Javy had last year, and we didn't really do well out of the 5 spot last year either.

At this point, I feel ok with everything except the starting rotation. The 2009 team looks to be younger, faster, and more athletic then any Sox team in awhile. I can get excited about that. I also think players with a football background bring an extra level of energy to the game. I don't know whether Fields and Owens could sustain that for an entire season, but hopefully they'll get enough rest.

I don't see how the team's defense will be significantly worse. Fields for Crede is the only loss there. I know Owens "sucks" but at least his speed can make up for his lack of defensive skills. Was Swisher really that much better in CF than Owens would be? Personally, I'd rather see Owens in LF, but that's not going to happen. Offensively, if he can be Scott Podsednik circa 2006, only with better stolen base results, I'd say the Sox got what they wanted out of the leadoff spot.

That leaves pitching. Based on what we saw from Danks in 2007, I think it's a stretch to expect the Sox can have someone not named Buehrle, Danks, or Floyd currently in house to put up close to 200 innings. If they can shore up the 4 and 5 spots, and that's it, I'll be ready to go. :smile:

SBSoxFan
12-23-2008, 02:14 PM
I don't know why you and others think it's an Agenda against KW, when it is not. It's an agenda vs the entire organization based on ZERO improvements they have done so far to what IMO was a very average team in 2008 that was lucky to back into a (bad) division title.

Look at all my past posts and I am as big of a supporter of KW as there is. But I don't like the direction of this offseason so far. Call it what it is, no improvement is no improvement.

You must be talking about the season as a whole. If not, how could you possibly consider winning 3 straight win-or-go-home games as backing into a division title? And then it's not like the Rays overwhelmed the Sox in the playoffs.

spawn
12-23-2008, 02:15 PM
Side note: all the high-salaried players the Sox have signed so far have also contributed to 0 championships (MB, PK, JG, JC and JD all got their raises after '05).
Exactly...meaning high priced salaries don't necessarily mean an automatic championship.

Side note II: The Yankees have in fact won a championship this millenium. So, you know, I don't really get what your point was.
THe last WS championship for the Yankees was in 2000. The new millenium started in 2001. If you don't get my point, then I really can't help you. So sorry.:redneck

spawn
12-23-2008, 02:17 PM
half those "terrible" acquisitions were either free-agents that were paid nothing or later-round draft picks that were paid nothing. where is the outrage over 2003 3rd round bust clint king? kw should be shagged.

SHHH...stop bringing things such as facts into this thread!

thedudeabides
12-23-2008, 02:22 PM
I don't know why you and others think it's an Agenda against KW, when it is not. It's an agenda vs the entire organization based on ZERO improvements they have done so far to what IMO was a very average team in 2008 that was lucky to back into a (bad) division title.

Look at all my past posts and I am as big of a supporter of KW as there is. But I don't like the direction of this offseason so far. Call it what it is, no improvement is no improvement.

I started to, because I don't really remember you being a big Kenny supporter. But, I couldn't get through more than a couple of pages before I realized how negative and angry you are about everything. Are you like that about all aspects in your life, or do the Sox just bring it out in you? :D:

Marqhead
12-23-2008, 02:24 PM
http://infochord.de/assets/2003-2006/frank-costanza.jpg

"I got a lot of problems with you people! And now, you're gonna hear about it. You, KW. These fans tells me your team STINKS!"

whitesox901
12-23-2008, 02:28 PM
OHIOSOXFAN

Nice to see another Ohio White Sox Fan! You, me and PKalltheway need to start a Sox revolution here in Ohio :tongue:

spawn
12-23-2008, 02:30 PM
I don't know why you and others think it's an Agenda against KW, when it is not. It's an agenda vs the entire organization based on ZERO improvements they have done so far to what IMO was a very average team in 2008 that was lucky to back into a (bad) division title.
Zero improvements? Hmm....he traded away Swisher, was a malcontent the last few weeks becasue of a decrease in playing time. he got rid of Javier Vazquez, who was a mental midget. He didn't make an effort to re-sign Cabrera, who wasn't the leader nor defensive specialists he thought he acquired. Juan Uribe is no longer here, whom many here considered the bane of their exiistence. IMO, those are definite improvements. It's addition by subtraction. Is this team perfect? Far from it. But I'm ok with it as it is constructed. As I said in an earlier post, I'm actually looking forward to seeing what these kids (Getz, Lillibridge, Fields, Marquez, Ricahrd) are capable of. As far as backing into a division title, most "experts" predicted that team wouldn't fair better than 4th place. I'll take 2 division titles in 3 years to understand that KW may actually know what he's doing.

Look at all my past posts and I am as big of a supporter of KW as there is. But I don't like the direction of this offseason so far. Call it what it is, no improvement is no improvement.
I have...well, not all of them. What I get from you is you're pissed off that KW isn't trying to buy a championship by just throwing money at players you think he should try to acquire.

Milw
12-23-2008, 02:32 PM
I like how your list only focuses on 2005, 2006 and 2008. Here are some other exceptional acquisitions of the KW era:

Ryan Bukvich
Boone Logan
Mike MacDougal
David Aardsma
Andrew Cisco
Nick Masset
Billy Koch
Royce Clayton
Todd Ritchie
Scot Schoeneweis
Darrin Erstad
Andy Gonzalez
Luis Terrero
Nick Swisher
Bret Prinz
On some level, you make my point with this list.

Which acquisitions were you (or, at least, the typical fan) more excited about at the time, Billy Koch or Bobby Jenks? Darrin Erstad or Carlos Quentin? Todd Ritchie or Gavin Floyd?

Yeah, KW's made his share of crap moves. But he's also made his share of genius moves. The point is, we don't know right now whether Betemit and Nix and other under-the-radar moves will end up on my list or yours.

So chill the **** out.

btrain929
12-23-2008, 02:34 PM
I like how your list only focuses on 2005, 2006 and 2008. Here are some other exceptional acquisitions of the KW era:

Ryan Bukvich x
Boone Logan x
Mike MacDougal x
David Aardsma x
Andrew Cisco x
Nick Masset x
Billy Koch x
Royce Clayton
Todd Ritchie x
Scot Schoeneweis x
Darrin Erstad x
Andy Gonzalez x
Luis Terrero x
Nick Swisher
Bret Prinz x

Logan and Gonzalez weren't acquisitions, we drafted them and they came up with us. Prinz and Bukvich were only brought in as AAA fillers, but were promoted when guys on the Major League roster **** their pants. Terrero was brought in as a bench player, and in that capacity, wasn't that bad. That's 1/3 of the list right there.

Sisco was bad, but we gave up Ross ****ing Gload for him. That's a wash. Masset was brought over with Danks, and wasn't the main piece of the trade (Danks was). We still are winning that trade. If it was McCarthy for Masset straight up, we could be mad over that, but it wasn't. Aardsma for Cotts was another **** for **** trade, a wash. We trade Glover for Schoeneweis, which was basically a wash. We trade garbage for Clayton, and eh, not great, not horrible. And Erstad, we spent 1M to see if he had anything left in the tank, he didn't, and we let him go. So what?

So the only ones that KW brought in that he gave up a good amount for AND were supposed to play a huge role with our team that didn't work out that you could blame KW for are Macdougal, Koch, Richie, and Swisher.

Now look at all the great moves that KW has made that have benefitted the team during his tenure. I'm not going to list them because other people already have, but they definitely outweight the bad moves. That's 4 BAD moves in a little less than a decade. I'm over it......:shrug:

whitesox901
12-23-2008, 02:39 PM
http://i72.photobucket.com/albums/i170/WHITESOX901/kahn.jpg
"You bad GM Kelly Williams, I better GM then you!"

SoxGirl4Life
12-23-2008, 02:54 PM
:popcorn:

Dan Mega
12-23-2008, 02:56 PM
I think the Sox can win this weak division again. Who knows at this point?

Also I don't believe a word that KW says. Ever.

areilly
12-23-2008, 03:14 PM
I think the Sox can win this weak division again. Who knows at this point?

Also I don't believe a word that KW says. Ever.

Even when he says he wants to win?

areilly
12-23-2008, 03:17 PM
Exactly...meaning high priced salaries don't necessarily mean an automatic championship.

I never advocated the Sox go on some reckless spending spree, and I don't know why you keep insisting I did.

BadBobbyJenks
12-23-2008, 03:22 PM
I always laugh when I hear people still complain about the Todd Ritchie trade. You did see what Josh Fogg and Kip Wells became right?

guillensdisciple
12-23-2008, 03:24 PM
I have stopped posting on the majority of Sox clubhouse threads, talking baseball, and rumor threads because there is way too much of this optimism vs. pessimism thing. I understand that there are concerns, and I understand that there might be problems, however, White Sox baseball is White Sox baseball. I will be there if we win 68 games or if we win 109 games. Also, I am willing to wait until the season to make any decisions about the direction of this team, I guess I do this for the same reason I did it in 2008 and 2005, I learned that being rash in talking about baseball was all I did. No matter what happens during the off season, and how bad it looks, you never know what can happen.

Also I am assured by the fact that Kenny, no matter what, is always looking to build a championship team. He is never complacent during the off-season, and he doesn't make excuses. As long as I see effort and an overall movement in the right direction, I am going to trust in Kenny.

white sox bill
12-23-2008, 03:24 PM
I always laugh when I hear people still complain about the Todd Ritchie trade. You did see what Josh Fogg and Kip Wells became right?
Pretty much Bob Howry and Neil Cotts

areilly
12-23-2008, 03:25 PM
IMO, those are definite improvements. It's addition by subtraction. Is this team perfect? Far from it. But I'm ok with it as it is constructed.

It would be except the problem wasn't just that Uribe, Swish, and Vazquez were all awful, it's that there was no better option. So with those three gone...who fills the void? I can't speak for others, but this is where I get uneasy about the state of the roster.

I'll take 2 division titles in 3 years to understand that KW may actually know what he's doing.

Four years, not three, if we're going to pick at each other's ability to measure time.

spawn
12-23-2008, 03:27 PM
I never advocated the Sox go on some reckless spending spree, and I don't know why you keep insisting I did.
And where have I said you insisted on KW going on a reckless spending spree? I gave an example of the Yankees signing high priced free agents and not having anything to show for it the last 8 years.

spawn
12-23-2008, 03:28 PM
It would be except the problem wasn't just that Uribe, Swish, and Vazquez were all awful, it's that there was no better option. So with those three gone...who fills the void? I can't speak for others, but this is where I get uneasy about the state of the roster.
Well, unlike you, I guess I'll wait until the players (Getz, Fields, Lillibridge, etc.) have actually played meaningful games for the White Sox before I decide to pass judgement.


Four years, not three, if we're going to pick at each other's ability to measure time.
OK...2 division titles in 4 years. I'm still ok with saying KW knows what he's doing.

btrain929
12-23-2008, 03:35 PM
Well, unlike you, I guess I'll wait until the players (Getz, Fields, Lillibridge, etc.) have actually played meaningful games for the White Sox before I decide to pass judgement.

The problem is people keep saying "what have they done on the MLB level" or "i'll wait til they've played meaningful games" but, at the same time, don't want to give them that chance and want someone more "proven" to play instead. It's a Catch 22.

spawn
12-23-2008, 03:37 PM
The problem is people keep saying "what have they done on the MLB level" or "i'll wait til they've played meaningful games" but, at the same time, don't want to give them that chance and want someone more "proven" to play instead. It's a Catch 22.
Pretty much. I've already stated in this thread that I do want to see what these players have to offer.

Paulwny
12-23-2008, 03:40 PM
And where have I said you insisted on KW going on a reckless spending spree? I g ave an example of the Yankees signing high priced free agents and not having anything to show for it the last 8 years.


It all depends how you look at "nothing to show for it".
Up until this year,
2 pennants
4 division champs
1 wild card

In a Yankee fan's mind these are failures since they didn't win the WS, however, watching your team playing in Oct. is still an accomplishment.

btrain929
12-23-2008, 03:41 PM
Pretty much. I've already stated in this thread that I do want to see what these players have to offer.

Well, well GOOD! :D:

kittle42
12-23-2008, 03:44 PM
It all depends how you look at "nothing to show for it".
Up until this year,
2 pennants
4 division champs
1 wild card

In a Yankee fan's mind these are failures since they didn't win the WS, however, watching your team playing in Oct. is still an accomplishment.

Apparently, it's an accomplishment here for the Sox just to make the playoffs, because it's a "crapshoot," but for the Yankees, the only accomplishment is winning the WS.

It doesn't work that way.

spawn
12-23-2008, 03:45 PM
It all depends how you look at "nothing to show for it".
Up until this year,
2 pennants
4 division champs
1 wild card

In a Yankee fan's mind these are failures since they didn't win the WS, however, watching your team playing in Oct. is still an accomplishment.
When your team spends that kind of change, I think just watching your team play in the playoffs isn't good enough. Just ask Cubs fans.

Paulwny
12-23-2008, 03:51 PM
When your team spends that kind of change, I think just watching your team play in the playoffs isn't good enough. Just ask Cubs fans.


They've been to the play-offs for 13 of the last 14 yrs. It's always much better watching your team in Oct than sitting and rooting for or against some other team.

spawn
12-23-2008, 03:53 PM
They've been to the play-offs for 13 of the last 14 yrs. It's always much better watching your team in Oct than sitting and rooting for or against some other team.
My point is, if the White Sox had the payroll the Yankees have, with the players the Yankees have, I'd expect them to be in the playoffs every year.

Paulwny
12-23-2008, 03:57 PM
My point is, if the White Sox had the payroll the Yankees have, with the players the Yankees have, I'd expect them to be in the playoffs every year.

Exactly, and you'd consider going to the play-offs an accomplishment, even if they didn't win the WS.

spawn
12-23-2008, 04:01 PM
Exactly, and you'd consider going to the play-offs an accomplishment, even if they didn't win the WS.
No, I wouldnt consider it an accomplishment. As I said, I'd expect it. Just because it would be a disappointment not making it to the post-season doesn't mean it would be considered an accomplishment to make it.

Paulwny
12-23-2008, 04:05 PM
No, I wouldnt consider it an accomplishment. As I said, I'd expect it. Just because it would be a disappointment not making it to the post-season doesn't mean it would be considered an accomplishment to make it.

I guess we're going nowhere with this, but going to the play-offs for 13 of the last 14 yrs is an accomplishment to me even though I've hated them almost all my life.

spawn
12-23-2008, 04:06 PM
I guess we're going nowhere with this, but going to the play-offs for 13 of the last 14 yrs is an accomplishment to me even though I've hated them almost all my life.
I guess we'll just have to agree to disagree.

DSpivack
12-23-2008, 04:09 PM
I guess we're going nowhere with this, but going to the play-offs for 13 of the last 14 yrs is an accomplishment to me even though I've hated them almost all my life.

For you, but I think in New York, Yankees fans aren't happy with anything short of a World Series title.

Sam Spade
12-23-2008, 04:10 PM
I guess we'll just have to agree to disagree.
No.

It's Dankerific
12-23-2008, 04:10 PM
My Calendar from last season is just as applicable now...

http://www.whitesoxinteractive.com/vbulletin/showpost.php?p=1740346&postcount=1

spawn
12-23-2008, 04:13 PM
For you, but I think in New York, Yankees fans aren't happy with anything short of a World Series title.
Exactly.

btrain929
12-23-2008, 04:15 PM
My Calendar from last season is just as applicable now...

http://www.whitesoxinteractive.com/vbulletin/showpost.php?p=1740346&postcount=1

Haha, that's classic.

spawn
12-23-2008, 04:15 PM
No.
I didn't realize you were part of this conversation. Oh wait...you're not.:rolleyes:

Paulwny
12-23-2008, 04:16 PM
I guess we'll just have to agree to disagree.

Yep

For you, but I think in New York, Yankees fans aren't happy with anything short of a World Series title.


The original discussion was ~ about " what have the yankees accomplished over the last 8 yrs" not necessarily the feelings of yank fans.
Of course their dissapointed.

pmck003
12-23-2008, 04:18 PM
This matched about 7 tags that I was searching for

spawn
12-23-2008, 04:18 PM
The original discussion was ~ about " what have the yankees accomplished over the last 8 yrs" not necessarily the feelings of yank fans.
Of course their dissapointed.
I guess I should've specified that I was posting as a hypothetical Yankees fan. That's my bad. From a baseball standpoint, that kind of success is an accomplishment. As a yankees fan, I don't believe they believe that it is.

Paulwny
12-23-2008, 04:20 PM
[quote=spawn;2126895] From a beaseball standpoint, that kind of success is an accomplishment. As a yankees fan, I don't believe they believe that it is.[/quote

Totally agree with you, :D:

spawn
12-23-2008, 04:22 PM
Totally agree with you, :D::bandance::redneck

WhiteSox5187
12-23-2008, 05:39 PM
http://infochord.de/assets/2003-2006/frank-costanza.jpg

"I got a lot of problems with you people! And now, you're gonna hear about it. You, KW. These fans tells me your team STINKS!"
Oh man! That made my day for some reason! "How could you trade Gio?!?!?!"

WhiteSox1989
12-23-2008, 05:55 PM
I haven't read this whole thing, because it's hurting my head, but I agree with this..

I really wish I knew why people felt so comfortable with having massive question marks at third, second, center and two even larger question marks (if not down right holes!) at the back end of the rotation.

Yes, yes, I know Danks and Floyd came thru big last year. But Danks had one major league season under his belt and fell apart in the second half of that season. Richard and Broadway don't have anywhere near the experience that Danks and Floyd had going into 2008. I really don't think it's going too far out on a limb to say "As we are constructed right now we have a lot of holes, and if those holes backfire we are not a contending team."

I think it is one thing to have one "question mark", but to have two pitchers in the 2009 rotation, who like you said don't have nearly as much experience as Floyd or Danks did going into 2008 really makes me nervous.

If Williams really means what he's saying and doesn't go after any pitching, then I'm going to be realistic.

Obviously I'll expect miracles though. aha.

Vernam
12-23-2008, 06:42 PM
Yes, because only a genius like Kenny Williams could start with a shaky team that won a crappy division and do nothing to improve it for next year. I didn't hear the interview, but for a guy who talks so much about winning now to already say he's done dealing is at least a tad depressing.Is this post recycled verbatim from last winter? I seem to remember everyone being disappointed when KW said he was done after "only" acquiring TCQ and Alexei. I'm not saying he's picked up anything comparable this off-season, but there were also a whole lot of "this team won't win 80 games" guarantees posted last year.

Vernam

LoveYourSuit
12-23-2008, 06:48 PM
I started to, because I don't really remember you being a big Kenny supporter. But, I couldn't get through more than a couple of pages before I realized how negative and angry you are about everything. Are you like that about all aspects in your life, or do the Sox just bring it out in you? :D:

Watching the 2nd half of the 2008 White Sox and throw in the entire 2007 season.... that's what has made me a very angry baseball fan of this team. White Sox baseball is my passion and is the reason I keep investing time and money on season tickets every season.


I just want to see improvement and I don't see it. Some claim addition by subtraction is the way to go like in the cases of Cabrera, Swisher, Vazquez .... but you have to do a little bit better than 4A ballplayers as replacements.

LoveYourSuit
12-23-2008, 06:55 PM
Is this post recycled verbatim from last winter? I seem to remember everyone being disappointed when KW said he was done after "only" acquiring TCQ and Alexei. I'm not saying he's picked up anything comparable this off-season, but there were also a whole lot of "this team won't win 80 games" guarantees posted last year.

Vernam

You can't compare last year to this season. No way possible. Going into the 2008 season:

1. Javy
2. Buehrle
3. Contreras
4. Gavin ?
5. Danks ?

Question marks at #4 and #5 were A level prospects and fomer #1 picks.

Now 2009:
1. Buehrle
2. Gavin
3. Danks
4. ???
5. ???

So now your #4 and #5 question marks are there again but this time other than Poreda, you don't have a top level prospect to fill those holes nor anything even close to the level of a Danks or Gavin. And in the process your bumping last year's #4 and #5 to #2 and #3, isn't that putting a bit too much load on those two guys and expect them to duplicate great seasons from last year?


God forbid Buehrle has one of those odd type average years.... all hell will break lose then.

mzh
12-23-2008, 07:31 PM
You can't compare last year to this season.

So now your #4 and #5 question marks are there again but this time other than Poreda, you don't have a top level prospect to fill those holes nor anything even close to the level of a Danks or Gavin. And in the process your bumping last year's #4 and #5 to #2 and #3, isn't that putting a bit too much load on those two guys and expect them to duplicate great seasons from last year?

If I remember correctly, we were wondering just as much about Danks and Floyd as we are about Poreda/Richard/Broadway now. Danks was coming off a 6-13 season w/ an ERA of 5.50, and Floyd was 8-10 with a career ERA over 6 in 29 starts over 4 years in the big leagues. Even if these guys have virtually no experience, what about last year when these guys had experience but had shown almost no progress in the MLB. Danks had a 21-30 record in the minors before he was promoted. Honestly, even after the suprises of Danks and Floyd last year, I would rather take a guy who still has promise and raise him from the start than pick up a guy who has dwindled and done nothing in 4 years.

kobo
12-23-2008, 07:41 PM
Watching the 2nd half of the 2008 White Sox and throw in the entire 2007 season.... that's what has made me a very angry baseball fan of this team. White Sox baseball is my passion and is the reason I keep investing time and money on season tickets every season.


I just want to see improvement and I don't see it. Some claim addition by subtraction is the way to go like in the cases of Cabrera, Swisher, Vazquez .... but you have to do a little bit better than 4A ballplayers as replacements.
What type of improvement do you want to see? One of the main gripes we as fans have had (or at least some of us) for the last couple years is that the team is old and slow. Now, KW has decided that he wants to try and get younger and more athletic while keeping a core of players. He also apparently does not have the same budget he has had the last several seasons when it comes to payroll. I don't necessarily like knowing that nor do I agree with it, but I understand the organization's position. I also know that any bitching and moaning about the payroll isn't going to change a damn thing so why bother even mentioning it? So knowing that he doesn't have the same resources and wants to get younger, what exactly do you want him to do?

You say that he acquired 4A players yet we have yet to see what some of these kids can do if given the chance to play every day. Are there holes on this team? Yes, most notably in the starting rotation. But I'm excited to see what Getz and Fields can do. I am excited about Beckham and Viciedo. Maybe KW will pick up another SP before the team gets to ST, who knows at this point. It's ok to be concerned and frustrated, but to belittle what KW has done so far and bitch and moan about every little thing seems like a waste of time to me. But maybe that's me, maybe I'm just more optimistic than you.

jabrch
12-23-2008, 08:21 PM
Gimme a T

CashMan
12-23-2008, 08:28 PM
You can't compare last year to this season. No way possible. Going into the 2008 season:

1. Javy
2. Buehrle
3. Contreras
4. Gavin ?
5. Danks ?

Question marks at #4 and #5 were A level prospects and fomer #1 picks.

Now 2009:
1. Buehrle
2. Gavin
3. Danks
4. ???
5. ???

So now your #4 and #5 question marks are there again but this time other than Poreda, you don't have a top level prospect to fill those holes nor anything even close to the level of a Danks or Gavin. And in the process your bumping last year's #4 and #5 to #2 and #3, isn't that putting a bit too much load on those two guys and expect them to duplicate great seasons from last year?


God forbid Buehrle has one of those odd type average years.... all hell will break lose then.

Wasn't Contreras a question mark, going into the season? And you didn't know whether you were getting 2006 Javy where he blew up after 5ip.

jabrch
12-23-2008, 08:30 PM
:threadsucks

pczarapa
12-23-2008, 09:38 PM
oh shut up.... We get it. You're smarter than kenny. You're a better gm than kenny. You have more inside knowledge than kenny and you are psychic about the upcoming season's results...


:d:

champagne030
12-23-2008, 09:54 PM
Is this post recycled verbatim from last winter? I seem to remember everyone being disappointed when KW said he was done after "only" acquiring TCQ and Alexei. I'm not saying he's picked up anything comparable this off-season, but there were also a whole lot of "this team won't win 80 games" guarantees posted last year.

Vernam

Or it could be posted verbatim from 2002-2004.

Kenny may make an upgrade, but at this point it looks like he's going to roll with the Wright, Porzio, Diaz, Munoz, Sanders, Stewart, et al. plan. I hope I can trust his words when he said he won't go with the "black hole" theory he has used in the past to fill the 5th starter spot. And that's because our current team not only has it in the 5th starter spot, but also in the 4th starter slot.

guillensdisciple
12-23-2008, 10:05 PM
:threadsucks



Agreed.

rdivaldi
12-23-2008, 10:32 PM
I like to think that I look on the more reasonable sides of things, but as constructed I believe this is a 70- 75 win team unless there is some sort of breakout from 1 young starter. You can win a decent amount of games with 4 dependable starters and a solid bullpen; however, with 3? It's just not going to work guys, especially with so many question marks in the lineup.

IMO, KW really needs to pick up a veteran arm to slide into the rotation.

oeo
12-23-2008, 10:37 PM
Wasn't Contreras a question mark, going into the season? And you didn't know whether you were getting 2006 Javy where he blew up after 5ip.

Yes, he was. And as you mentioned, some people were unsure of what Javy would be returning as well as if 2006 Buehrle would return.

champagne030
12-23-2008, 10:44 PM
Wasn't Contreras a question mark, going into the season? And you didn't know whether you were getting 2006 Javy where he blew up after 5ip.

Yes, yes he was. The problem is Jose doesn't have anyone behind him that can carry a jock, let alone his and the starter behind him.

WhiteSox5187
12-23-2008, 11:07 PM
Agreed.
And yet you still post in it.

btrain929
12-23-2008, 11:08 PM
I'm just here to see the proof of KW kissing Santa....

WhiteSox1989
12-23-2008, 11:16 PM
I figured after Vazquez was traded, that Kenny would acquire some proven pitching. I mean I wasn't expecting Sabathia, but someone who has had a bit more major league experience than Richard and Poreda. If that were to happen, then I'd feel more comfortable with either Richard or Poreda being in the 5th spot.

WhiteSox5187
12-23-2008, 11:23 PM
I figured after Vazquez was traded, that Kenny would acquire some proven pitching. I mean I wasn't expecting Sabathia, but someone who has had a bit more major league experience than Richard and Poreda. If that were to happen, then I'd feel more comfortable with either Richard or Poreda being in the 5th spot.
I agree, but there's still time for that. Honestly with the price of ree agents falling and falling I wouldn't be shocked to see us land someone like Sheets.

WhiteSox1989
12-23-2008, 11:39 PM
I agree, but there's still time for that. Honestly with the price of ree agents falling and falling I wouldn't be shocked to see us land someone like Sheets.

I'm trying to hold out my opinion until everything is said and done. But yes, yes I really hope that the Sox manage to sign a solid free agent pitcher.

LoveYourSuit
12-24-2008, 01:48 AM
Wasn't Contreras a question mark, going into the season? And you didn't know whether you were getting 2006 Javy where he blew up after 5ip.

Are you seriously going to put Contreras and Javy in the same category as Broadway/Richard/Marquez???

Contreras was a question mark, but many thought nothing of it and pointed fingers on his divorce situation from the previous year and exepcted him to have a bounce back.

Javy, are you kidding me? After being lights out the 2nd half of 2007 and being proclaimed "the ace of this staff" going into 2008. What doubts did anyone have?

WhiteSox5187
12-24-2008, 02:09 AM
Are you seriously going to put Contreras and Javy in the same category as Broadway/Richard/Marquez???

Contreras was a question mark, but many thought nothing of it and pointed fingers on his divorce situation from the previous year and exepcted him to have a bounce back.

Javy, are you kidding me? After being lights out the 2nd half of 2007 and being proclaimed "the ace of this staff" going into 2008. What doubts did anyone have?
I think of a lot of people weren't entirely sold on Contreras coming back, but people were saying "well, he is over his divorce, so he should be better." But I'm pretty sure everyone was considering Javy to be the ace of the staff this year.

TornLabrum
12-24-2008, 07:25 AM
Are you seriously going to put Contreras and Javy in the same category as Broadway/Richard/Marquez???

Contreras was a question mark, but many thought nothing of it and pointed fingers on his divorce situation from the previous year and exepcted him to have a bounce back.

Javy, are you kidding me? After being lights out the 2nd half of 2007 and being proclaimed "the ace of this staff" going into 2008. What doubts did anyone have?

I for one had plenty of doubts about Javy and expressed them here and in my column. I feared (and was right) that Javy was the type of pitcher who would have a good year when the team was completely out of the running and pretty much suck when we were contenders.

kittle42
12-24-2008, 10:53 AM
I for one had plenty of doubts about Javy and expressed them here and in my column. I feared (and was right) that Javy was the type of pitcher who would have a good year when the team was completely out of the running and pretty much suck when we were contenders.

Nevertheless, that was not the overwhelming opinion, and people now comparing Javy to the 4/5 situation right now going into 2009 are just using hindsight.

TaylorStSox
12-24-2008, 02:46 PM
I really wish I knew why people felt so comfortable with having massive question marks at third, second, center and two even larger question marks (if not down right holes!) at the back end of the rotation.

Yes, yes, I know Danks and Floyd came thru big last year. But Danks had one major league season under his belt and fell apart in the second half of that season. Richard and Broadway don't have anywhere near the experience that Danks and Floyd had going into 2008. I really don't think it's going too far out on a limb to say "As we are constructed right now we have a lot of holes, and if those holes backfire we are not a contending team."

I can't speak for everyone else, but I'm comfortable with the philosophy of going young. This team has been terribly flawed for a couple years. The flawed players are getting older. They had a nice run and it's over. Patching this team up with a couple mediocre vets might make us more competitive, but it won't make us good. We're rebuilding. I have no problem with that.

LoveYourSuit
12-24-2008, 03:19 PM
I can't speak for everyone else, but I'm comfortable with the philosophy of going young. This team has been terribly flawed for a couple years. The flawed players are getting older. They had a nice run and it's over. Patching this team up with a couple mediocre vets might make us more competitive, but it won't make us good. We're rebuilding. I have no problem with that.


You know what, that explanation I do accept and I would accept from the Sox if they come out and explained it this way. Call it what it is, REBUILDING.

But don't stop there, take flyers on everyone else like Dye, Konerko, Thome, AJ etc. I'm sure if you tell those guys that you are in 100% rebuild mode, they will happily give up their no trade rights to go find a place to compete and win right away.

Also, go this route and you have to give something back to your fans, like not increasing ticket prices / concession prices. You make it affordable again to go out to the park while the Sox go young in rebuilding, I don't think many Sox fans including my self will have anything to complain about. The issues right now is that the product is half ass and it's costing us an arm and a leg to go to games. One way or the other is the way to go.

2906
12-24-2008, 03:33 PM
You know what, that explanation I do accept and I would accept from the Sox if they come out and explained it this way. Call it what it is, REBUILDING.

But don't stop there, take flyers on everyone else like Dye, Konerko, Thome, AJ etc. I'm sure if you tell those guys that you are in 100% rebuild mode, they will happily give up their no trade rights to go find a place to compete and win right away.

Also, go this route and you have to give something back to your fans, like not increasing ticket prices / concession prices. You make it affordable again to go out to the park while the Sox go young in rebuilding, I don't think many Sox fans including my self will have anything to complain about. The issues right now is that the product is half ass and it's costing us an arm and a leg to go to games. One way or the other is the way to go.

You want things black or white but it doesn't always work out that way.

Just suppose they work in some of these young players and it gets to be July and they're in the thick of the race. Meaning, they have a legit shot to win the division. They move some prospects for proven vets that maybe aren't available now but will be in July. And they make a run for the division.

To me, this is exactly what they're planning. I don't necessarily agree with it and it isn't all neat and one side or the other, but it's very plausible, perhaps very likely.

The flip side is they stay "as is", nothing works out, they sink to the bottom. Maybe then they auction off a vet or two or three and there's your full blown rebuilding.

Seems like they're thinking none of Minnesota, Cleveland, Detroit, or KC will be running away with the division 3 months into the season. Whether their thinking is right or wrong, time will tell.

TaylorStSox
12-24-2008, 03:36 PM
You know what, that explanation I do accept and I would accept from the Sox if they come out and explained it this way. Call it what it is, REBUILDING.

But don't stop there, take flyers on everyone else like Dye, Konerko, Thome, AJ etc. I'm sure if you tell those guys that you are in 100% rebuild mode, they will happily give up their no trade rights to go find a place to compete and win right away.

Also, go this route and you have to give something back to your fans, like not increasing ticket prices / concession prices. You make it affordable again to go out to the park while the Sox go young in rebuilding, I don't think many Sox fans including my self will have anything to complain about. The issues right now is that the product is half ass and it's costing us an arm and a leg to go to games. One way or the other is the way to go.


I'm sure KW's tried to move pretty much every veteran on this team in the last couple months. The Sox have the right to do what's in their best interest, just like you have the right to cry about it.

jabrch
12-24-2008, 03:38 PM
Gimme an R....

LoveYourSuit
12-24-2008, 04:44 PM
I'm sure KW's tried to move pretty much every veteran on this team in the last couple months. The Sox have the right to do what's in their best interest, just like you have the right to cry about it.


Agreed.

They have the right to piss on the fans same way we have the right to bitch, cry, and not show up.

Then we are back to the pre-2005 where in a nice July weekday 65% of the seats are dressed in blue/green.

You want to learn how to lose a great fanbase, look no further than the Cleveland Indians and Oakland A's.

Frater Perdurabo
12-24-2008, 05:46 PM
You want to learn how to lose a great fanbase, look no further than the Cleveland Indians and Oakland A's.

Of course anyone has the right to complain or not buy tickets. But if fans can't discern the difference between what the A's and Indians have done and what the Sox are doing, they must be blind or dumb.

What core/star players have the Sox traded away or dumped to justify the label "rebuilding?"

AJ, Paulie, Thome, Buehrle, Jenks, Dye (World Series core), and Danks, Floyd, Quentin and Alexei (young core) remain on the roster. No core players have been traded.

Cabrera is a free agent, was never in the team's long-term plans and alienated Ozzie; Crede is a free agent, has a bad back and his agent won't negotiate in good faith; Swisher and Vazquez once were thought to be part of the future, but alienated Ozzie and played their way out of town. Neither would have fetched quality MLB players in return, which is why the Sox dealt them for prospects.

In construction, rebuilding implies tearing down the structure and starting over. Likewise, in baseball, rebuilding implies trading away your core player(s) and starting over with lots of youth. That is most definitely NOT what KW is doing. I'd describe what KW is doing as "cutting his losses" (Swisher and Vazquez), and "remodeling."

btrain929
12-24-2008, 05:51 PM
Of course anyone has the right to complain or not buy tickets. But if fans can't discern the difference between what the A's and Indians have done and what the Sox are doing, they must be blind or dumb.

What core/star players have the Sox traded away or dumped to justify the label "rebuilding?"

AJ, Paulie, Thome, Buehrle, Jenks, Dye (World Series core), and Danks, Floyd, Quentin and Alexei (young core) remain on the roster. No core players have been traded.

Cabrera is a free agent, was never in the team's long-term plans and alienated Ozzie; Crede is a free agent, has a bad back and his agent won't negotiate in good faith; Swisher and Vazquez once were thought to be part of the future, but alienated Ozzie and played their way out of town. Neither would have fetched quality MLB players in return, which is why the Sox dealt them for prospects.

In construction, rebuilding implies tearing down the structure and starting over. Likewise, in baseball, rebuilding implies trading away your core player(s) and starting over with lots of youth. That is most definitely NOT what KW is doing. I'd describe what KW is doing as "cutting his losses" (Swisher and Vazquez), and "remodeling."

Very good post. I think one can argue that we haven't added the quality players needed to be considered a favorite/remain atop of the division. But I don't think you can say we're rebuilding ala the A's, Marlins, Mariners, etc.

Frater Perdurabo
12-24-2008, 06:38 PM
Very good post. I think one can argue that we haven't added the quality players needed to be considered a favorite/remain atop of the division. But I don't think you can say we're rebuilding ala the A's, Marlins, Mariners, etc.

Great reply!

Of course the Sox have not added any high-quality veteran players to replace Vazquez, Swisher, Cabrera and Crede. They would either need to sign free agents, or acquire them through trade. The first option would require money that the Sox either don't have or are unwilling to spend. The second option would require trading away quality prospects (that the Sox just didn't have) or their own veteran stars (that would create other holes).

Frater Perdurabo
12-24-2008, 06:48 PM
I think one can reasonably argue that in hindsight, it was a mistake to acquire Vazquez in the first place. McCarthy and El Duque again could have handled the #5 spot in the rotation while Vizcaino would have helped the bullpen in 2006, and Chris Young would have been a serviceable CF (better defense than Mackowiak in 2006, better health and thus better production than Erstad in 2007 and better hitting and more stolen bases than Swisher in 2008). Keeping Chris Young would have meant KW would not have had to trade Sweeney, DLS and Gio for Swisher.

Trading away Vazquez and Swisher was just an example of KW cutting his losses and trying to replenish his pipeline of prospects that he had to give up in trading for Vazquez and Swisher in the first place.

champagne030
12-24-2008, 07:07 PM
Gimme an R....

Thanks for your input Kenny.

jabrch
12-24-2008, 09:18 PM
Keeping Chris Young would have meant KW would not have had to trade Sweeney, DLS and Gio for Swisher.


If .240/.310/.450 is what they want in CF, they should give BA a shot. I think they were hoping for much more than that from Swish.

voodoochile
12-24-2008, 11:04 PM
You know what, that explanation I do accept and I would accept from the Sox if they come out and explained it this way. Call it what it is, REBUILDING.

But don't stop there, take flyers on everyone else like Dye, Konerko, Thome, AJ etc. I'm sure if you tell those guys that you are in 100% rebuild mode, they will happily give up their no trade rights to go find a place to compete and win right away.

Also, go this route and you have to give something back to your fans, like not increasing ticket prices / concession prices. You make it affordable again to go out to the park while the Sox go young in rebuilding, I don't think many Sox fans including my self will have anything to complain about. The issues right now is that the product is half ass and it's costing us an arm and a leg to go to games. One way or the other is the way to go.

And again, can you point to ANY example of ANY team doing what you seem to expect as routine for the Sox to do? Like I've said, maybe the Lions when they hire the new management team will come right out and say, "we're backing up the truck and starting over - this team sucks!" and a few other like teams, but the last time the Sox did something like that they got rightfully hammered by press and fans alike and suffered through two of their worst attendance years since the mid 70's.

It just isn't done. Only in extreme circumstances do teams come out and say, "we're starting over" and lowering prices has only two effects:

1) It devalues the perceived value of the ticket in question thus having a negative impact on season ticket sales and public perception about how serious the team is to winning now.

2) it guarantees even less revenue to work with this coming season thus pushing the need to trade big contracts merely to offset the lost revenue from first announcing you aren't trying to win immediately and then reducing ticket prices to the ticket buyers who remain.

Do you have any idea how marketing, economics, public perception and perceived value tie into how much you can charge and how many people come see your team year in and year out? It sure doesn't sound like it and your "living in the clouds" dream of a better way to do things sounds like a good way to start a death spiral economic cycle for the Sox. I mean seriously, get a clue...

voodoochile
12-24-2008, 11:10 PM
Agreed.

They have the right to piss on the fans same way we have the right to bitch, cry, and not show up.

Then we are back to the pre-2005 where in a nice July weekday 65% of the seats are dressed in blue/green.

You want to learn how to lose a great fanbase, look no further than the Cleveland Indians and Oakland A's.


You don't like the way you are being treated, there's the ****ing door, don't bother looking for your hat, you won't be needing it. I am sure you can find a nice blue and red one 8.1 miles north. That team is committed to winning and they prove it every year for the last 100, but more so recently by throwing money at everyone and anyone with a pulse.

Hate to see someone feel like they are getting tinkeled on, so just trying to do my part to help.

Oh and that great fanbase? It's always there every time the Sox are playing winning baseball which last time I checked they've done as well or better under KW these past 4 years (in particular) than at almost any other stretch of time in team history.

guillensdisciple
12-25-2008, 01:03 AM
You don't like the way you are being treated, there's the ****ing door, don't bother looking for your hat, you won't be needing it. I am sure you can find a nice blue and red one 8.1 miles north. That team is committed to winning and they prove it every year for the last 100, but more so recently by throwing money at everyone and anyone with a pulse.

Hate to see someone feel like they are getting tinkeled on, so just trying to do my part to help.

Oh and that great fanbase? It's always there every time the Sox are playing winning baseball which last time I checked they've done as well or better under KW these past 4 years (in particular) than at almost any other stretch of time in team history.

I don't see why this doesn't answer every criticism we have. He has done everything to create a winning culture in Chicago and he has, and he isn't stopping. I will stop trusting in Kenny when the White Sox fall off the chart and do nothing for 2 years or so.

2005- WS champions.

2006- 90 wins.

2007- 72 wins, bad year.

2008- playoffs, not bad.

So, I don't see a reason to get worried yet.

btrain929
12-25-2008, 01:15 AM
I don't see why this doesn't answer every criticism we have. He has done everything to create a winning culture in Chicago and he has, and he isn't stopping. I will stop trusting in Kenny when the White Sox fall off the chart and do nothing for 2 years or so.

2005- WS champions.

2006- 90 wins.

2007- 72 wins, bad year.

2008- playoffs, not bad.

So, I don't see a reason to get worried yet.

Even 2 years might be too quick of a hook....

guillensdisciple
12-25-2008, 01:24 AM
Even 2 years might be too quick of a hook....


Yes, it probably is, because many great franchises have their down years and their GM's stay regardless.

I just hope people have trust in Kenny and Ozzie for a while, they have done great things for White Sox baseball in game, culture, and tradition.

whitesox901
12-25-2008, 01:29 AM
I don't see why this doesn't answer every criticism we have. He has done everything to create a winning culture in Chicago and he has, and he isn't stopping. I will stop trusting in Kenny when the White Sox fall off the chart and do nothing for 2 years or so.

2005- WS champions.

2006- 90 wins.

2007- 72 wins, bad year.

2008- playoffs, not bad.

So, I don't see a reason to get worried yet.

Me neither, plus we were also in contention in 02, 30, 04 like we were in 06.

voodoochile
12-25-2008, 12:48 PM
Me neither, plus we were also in contention in 02, 03, 04 like we were in 06.

I was going to point that out, but figured I'd stick with the WS and beyond years. In retrospect, those seasons take on even more significance, IMO. KW's been building a team to win a championship to the best of his budget and ability since he's been in charge.

Now here it is Xmas, 2008 and no major additions have been made to a team that won the division last year though some subtractions have occurred and some fans are screaming bloody murder and claiming the team is pissing on them. It's weak...

It's Dankerific
12-25-2008, 01:38 PM
Now here it is Xmas, 2008 and no major additions have been made to a team that won the division last year though some subtractions have occurred and some fans are screaming bloody murder and claiming the team is pissing on them. It's weak...

Take 2008 team that barely won division + nothing - starting pitcher and starting SS = no reason for people to worry.

ok.... the team isn't "pissing" on anyone but to say that the equation is normal operating procedure, especially for a KW team is not in the realm of reality.

jabrch
12-25-2008, 02:06 PM
Now here it is Xmas, 2008 and no major additions have been made to a team that won the division last year though some subtractions have occurred and some fans are screaming bloody murder and claiming the team is pissing on them. It's weak...

I hope it is just a very small, yet obnoxiously loud group of fans and that this behaviour doesn't represent most Sox fans.

LoveYourSuit
12-25-2008, 02:18 PM
You don't like the way you are being treated, there's the ****ing door, don't bother looking for your hat, you won't be needing it. I am sure you can find a nice blue and red one 8.1 miles north. That team is committed to winning and they prove it every year for the last 100, but more so recently by throwing money at everyone and anyone with a pulse.

Hate to see someone feel like they are getting tinkeled on, so just trying to do my part to help.

Oh and that great fanbase? It's always there every time the Sox are playing winning baseball which last time I checked they've done as well or better under KW these past 4 years (in particular) than at almost any other stretch of time in team history.


Relax Voodo....it's Christmas. Having an ulcer over someone talking negative about the Sox current offseason is a bit off the handle don't you think? It's an opinion, that's all. I DON'T LIKE WHAT WE HAVE DONE SO FAR THIS OFFSEASON , PERIOD. How hard is that to graps as only being my opinion?

And why does it always have to lead and point over to the team on the north side. That is so childish. "Well go over and cheer for them, we dont' need you." What the **** is that, 4th grade ****? No one has mentioned the Cubs but there you go with the stupid meatball theory that if someone is mad with the Sox by default they should go cheer for the other team. Very lame. There are 29 other ML teams someone can cheer for by the way, but it always has to be this Cub bull**** that comes into play.

As for my comment abouth the Sox "pissing on the fans," that was in response to the posters justification that "the Sox have the right to do what's in their best interest" when it comes to dumping pay-roll and not putting it back on the product. When fans support has been at the highest level the last 4 season in frachise history and with increasing ticket prices and concessions in the worst economy since the Great Depression, yes, I call this "pissing on the fans." Crying poor as Kenny has been doing all offseason with his 35 cents / $1 dollar comments and blaming the economy for it while still increasing the cost to attend a game in the same bad economy, very hypocritical move from the Sox. But what do they care if they already have 20K season ticket holders in their back-pocket because of the play-off run last season.

LoveYourSuit
12-25-2008, 02:29 PM
I hope it is just a very small, yet obnoxiously loud group of fans and that this behaviour doesn't represent most Sox fans.


You'll be surprised, the majority of the Sox fans I know are up in arms and I guess being "obnoxiously loud." Especially those who have good money already invested in season tickets for next season.

Those "smart ones" which I guess would be the majority on this board with their pom poms are either toeing the company line or don't even have a dime invested on tickets for this product next season.

itsnotrequired
12-25-2008, 02:38 PM
You'll be surprised, the majority of the Sox fans I know are up in arms and I guess being "obnoxiously loud." Especially those who have good money already invested in season tickets for next season.

Those "smart ones" which I guess would be the majority on this board with their pom poms are either toeing the company line or don't even have a dime invested on tickets for this product next season.

:rolleyes:

ilsox7
12-25-2008, 02:41 PM
:rolleyes:

I've always hated that smiley, until this off season. It sums up the know-it-alls here in a concise, appropriate manner.

itsnotrequired
12-25-2008, 02:41 PM
I've always hated that smiley, until this off season. It sums up the know-it-alls here in a concise, appropriate manner.

nothing roils the blood more than a good eyeroll smiley

LoveYourSuit
12-25-2008, 02:42 PM
:rolleyes:
care to make a point?

ilsox7
12-25-2008, 02:44 PM
nothing roils the blood more than a good eyeroll smiley

It is quite humorous. I have seen the light with the rolled-eye smiley.

itsnotrequired
12-25-2008, 02:45 PM
It is quite humorous. I have seen the light with the rolled-eye smiley.

:rolleyes:

2906
12-25-2008, 04:43 PM
care to make a point?

Yeah, I do.

First you tell the guy to "relax, it's Christmas". Then you launch these retorts:

1. "Having an ulcer over someone talking negative about the Sox ..." I
would say he was hardly having an ulcer, rather just calling out
your incessant, as in every day, offseason "opinions". Others might
label them rants or crybabying. I think that voodoo
summed up the opinion of many when he basically said we know
full well where you stand. Rest yourself, we get it. All the
posts afterwards should be taken as a hint by you.

2. Then you comment about the north side reference, saying it's
"so childish". Followed by these mature, measured remarks:
"What the **** is that, 4th grade ****?" "Very lame". Maybe
someone else should respond, "wow, how typically 20-something"

3. Further, you state " dumping pay-roll and not putting it back on
the product". Do you have proof of this? Or is this, you know,
just an assumption you're stating as fact?

4. Then, you take a broadside at those who disagree with your
incessant opinions, labeling them as pom pom wavers and company
men. Worse, I detect a tone of you thinking you're better than the
majority of the board who doesn't share your opinion because
you have money invested in 2009 tickets and maybe they don't.

Does posting the exact same thing every day on a message board make you feel better? Or do you think Kenny Williams will read your words and suddenly come to his senses or something? Write him a letter and ask for a reply. However, I would suggest not using phrases like "very lame" and "what the **** is that, 4th grade ****?" I doubt he'll take you seriously. Having met and conversed with him numerous times, he'd probably chalk you up as a blowhard.

Oh, and by the way ... lest you label me as a pom pom waver, or a company man, or not invested in 2009 tickets ... I stand more on your side of the fence than others here. I categorize myself as disappointed by what has happened so far, but I recognize what's going on and what they're trying to do. I explained it in a post yesterday, responding to you in fact.

To summarize, Voodoo is right, and I too applaud his post.

ilsox7
12-25-2008, 09:59 PM
Yeah, I do.

First you tell the guy to "relax, it's Christmas". Then you launch these retorts:

1. "Having an ulcer over someone talking negative about the Sox ..." I
would say he was hardly having an ulcer, rather just calling out
your incessant, as in every day, offseason "opinions". Others might
label them rants or crybabying. I think that voodoo
summed up the opinion of many when he basically said we know
full well where you stand. Rest yourself, we get it. All the
posts afterwards should be taken as a hint by you.

2. Then you comment about the north side reference, saying it's
"so childish". Followed by these mature, measured remarks:
"What the **** is that, 4th grade ****?" "Very lame". Maybe
someone else should respond, "wow, how typically 20-something"

3. Further, you state " dumping pay-roll and not putting it back on
the product". Do you have proof of this? Or is this, you know,
just an assumption you're stating as fact?

4. Then, you take a broadside at those who disagree with your
incessant opinions, labeling them as pom pom wavers and company
men. Worse, I detect a tone of you thinking you're better than the
majority of the board who doesn't share your opinion because
you have money invested in 2009 tickets and maybe they don't.

Does posting the exact same thing every day on a message board make you feel better? Or do you think Kenny Williams will read your words and suddenly come to his senses or something? Write him a letter and ask for a reply. However, I would suggest not using phrases like "very lame" and "what the **** is that, 4th grade ****?" I doubt he'll take you seriously. Having met and conversed with him numerous times, he'd probably chalk you up as a blowhard.

Oh, and by the way ... lest you label me as a pom pom waver, or a company man, or not invested in 2009 tickets ... I stand more on your side of the fence than others here. I categorize myself as disappointed by what has happened so far, but I recognize what's going on and what they're trying to do. I explained it in a post yesterday, responding to you in fact.

To summarize, Voodoo is right, and I too applaud his post.

This is why the eyes rolling smiley is so effective. Basically, you've got a bunch of people who do not understand baseball going off every day about stuff. It really is pathetic. There are ways to express an opinion (either for or against moves the Sox are making). People like LYS do not understand the game, it appears, and therefore do not understand how to properly express their opinion.

It's sad b/c there was a time on WSI when we could have a civil discourse about the state of the White Sox. Those days are far and few between, IMO, b/c of many of the people in this thread.

/rant

jabrch
12-25-2008, 10:14 PM
It's sad b/c there was a time on WSI when we could have a civil discourse about the state of the White Sox. Those days are far and few between, IMO, b/c of many of the people in this thread.

/rant


Well said ilsox. Very well said.

voodoochile
12-25-2008, 10:27 PM
Relax Voodo....it's Christmas. Having an ulcer over someone talking negative about the Sox current offseason is a bit off the handle don't you think? It's an opinion, that's all. I DON'T LIKE WHAT WE HAVE DONE SO FAR THIS OFFSEASON , PERIOD. How hard is that to graps as only being my opinion?

And why does it always have to lead and point over to the team on the north side. That is so childish. "Well go over and cheer for them, we dont' need you." What the **** is that, 4th grade ****? No one has mentioned the Cubs but there you go with the stupid meatball theory that if someone is mad with the Sox by default they should go cheer for the other team. Very lame. There are 29 other ML teams someone can cheer for by the way, but it always has to be this Cub bull**** that comes into play.

As for my comment abouth the Sox "pissing on the fans," that was in response to the posters justification that "the Sox have the right to do what's in their best interest" when it comes to dumping pay-roll and not putting it back on the product. When fans support has been at the highest level the last 4 season in franchise history and with increasing ticket prices and concessions in the worst economy since the Great Depression, yes, I call this "pissing on the fans." Crying poor as Kenny has been doing all offseason with his 35 cents / $1 dollar comments and blaming the economy for it while still increasing the cost to attend a game in the same bad economy, very hypocritical move from the Sox. But what do they care if they already have 20K season ticket holders in their back-pocket because of the play-off run last season.

Check the stats, attendance is down 500K from where it peaked in 2006. That's $10-15M in lost revenue just from the seats before counting in food, beer, souvenirs, etc. It's not hard to see why the Sox might need to shave some money based on that fact. Add in the expected downturn in ALL entertainment money because the economy is screwed up and it's not hard to guess the Sox might be down $30M in gross revenue from 2007. This isn't rocket science, it's pretty elementary stuff that anyone can find out by Googling MLB attendance or White Sox attendance and looking up the data.

Some of that may be off set by the success of 2008, but JR's always insisted that the Sox run at even (and they have one of the lowest amount of debt on the books of any team according to that Forbes link floating around somewhere).

Yet despite all of that you keep hammering the "spend more money" like it's there to be spent. I don't know for a fact that it is, but you don't know for a fact that it isn't either and again, it appears that it really isn't there at the moment.

Add in the fact that most of the young players who will be filling in for veterans are ready for their shot at the bigs and having them spend more time in AAA would be a waste of their time and the team's and again, it seems extra silly to be screaming for more veteran help.

The only area on this team which pretty clearly needs one more veteran added is SP. I hold out hope that something will happen before the season gets here to acquire that starter. If not, I'll be a bit disappointed too, but if Getz/Lillebridge/Nix, Fields/Betamit/Viciedo, Owens/BA are given their shot this year, it's bound to happen some time, so why not now?

Tell you what. I'll lay off of you when you stop trolling thread after thread after thread with your 72 win crap. you don't know it, you're just tossing out a number because it makes you feel good to feel superior. You haven't done one bit of statistical analysis to support your position, merely made an assumption that every new player will suck and that therefore the Sox will stink. You climb down off of you pile of bull****, I'll leave you be.

Oh and frankly, I don't care which team you root for if you jump ship on the Sox. The flubbies are just the closest and the easiest target.

whitesox901
12-26-2008, 03:59 PM
:rolleyes:

:rolleyes:

guillensdisciple
12-26-2008, 05:54 PM
This is why the eyes rolling smiley is so effective. Basically, you've got a bunch of people who do not understand baseball going off every day about stuff. It really is pathetic. There are ways to express an opinion (either for or against moves the Sox are making). People like LYS do not understand the game, it appears, and therefore do not understand how to properly express their opinion.

It's sad b/c there was a time on WSI when we could have a civil discourse about the state of the White Sox. Those days are far and few between, IMO, b/c of many of the people in this thread.

/rant

I have already said this, but the stupidity I see on some of the threads is WAYYY too much, I can't even take part in these threads because they are the same thing every damn time. I understand everyone is opinionated but why can't people learn to accept both sides of the story. I can understand why people are worried but I am optimistic because I trust in Kenny, but I won't go here and argue my point like it is above everyone elses. Too much off the "roll-eye" crap, too much arguing about opinions, and I thought we were the best type of fans (I still believe we are though haha.)

dickallen15
12-26-2008, 05:57 PM
Check the stats, attendance is down 500K from where it peaked in 2006. That's $10-15M in lost revenue just from the seats before counting in food, beer, souvenirs, etc. It's not hard to see why the Sox might need to shave some money based on that fact. Add in the expected downturn in ALL entertainment money because the economy is screwed up and it's not hard to guess the Sox might be down $30M in gross revenue from 2007. This isn't rocket science, it's pretty elementary stuff that anyone can find out by Googling MLB attendance or White Sox attendance and looking up the data.

Some of that may be off set by the success of 2008, but JR's always insisted that the Sox run at even (and they have one of the lowest amount of debt on the books of any team according to that Forbes link floating around somewhere).

Yet despite all of that you keep hammering the "spend more money" like it's there to be spent. I don't know for a fact that it is, but you don't know for a fact that it isn't either and again, it appears that it really isn't there at the moment.

Add in the fact that most of the young players who will be filling in for veterans are ready for their shot at the bigs and having them spend more time in AAA would be a waste of their time and the team's and again, it seems extra silly to be screaming for more veteran help.

The only area on this team which pretty clearly needs one more veteran added is SP. I hold out hope that something will happen before the season gets here to acquire that starter. If not, I'll be a bit disappointed too, but if Getz/Lillebridge/Nix, Fields/Betamit/Viciedo, Owens/BA are given their shot this year, it's bound to happen some time, so why not now?

Tell you what. I'll lay off of you when you stop trolling thread after thread after thread with your 72 win crap. you don't know it, you're just tossing out a number because it makes you feel good to feel superior. You haven't done one bit of statistical analysis to support your position, merely made an assumption that every new player will suck and that therefore the Sox will stink. You climb down off of you pile of bull****, I'll leave you be.

Oh and frankly, I don't care which team you root for if you jump ship on the Sox. The flubbies are just the closest and the easiest target.

While I agree with most of your post, JR doesn't insist the White Sox run at even. He insists they don't run in the red. We obviously can't see the books and even if we did, it would take someone with a lot of experience in that sort of thing to figure out within reason what the real numbers were. We can only go by past seasons, and if they weren't operating in the red in 2008, it seems like even with a downturn in the economy they should be able to add some payroll to the current roster and that's not even considering what they offered to guys like Fukudome and Hunter.

2906
12-26-2008, 06:56 PM
[quote=dickallen15;2128374] JR doesn't insist the White Sox run at even. He insists they don't run in the red. [quote]

He's been quoted many times as saying everything goes back into the team, or better stated, the franchise. They make profit, it goes back into the team. That's been pretty evident the last few years.

Daver
12-26-2008, 07:34 PM
This is why the eyes rolling smiley is so effective. Basically, you've got a bunch of people who do not understand baseball going off every day about stuff. It really is pathetic. There are ways to express an opinion (either for or against moves the Sox are making). People like LYS do not understand the game, it appears, and therefore do not understand how to properly express their opinion.

It's sad b/c there was a time on WSI when we could have a civil discourse about the state of the White Sox. Those days are far and few between, IMO, b/c of many of the people in this thread.

/rant

It's not just the wanna be GM's that think they are smarter than everyone because they do well at fantasy baseball or, memorize minor league stats, or both, they are annoying but most of the time amusing. You also have the faction that spend most of their time on another forum and only come here to incite arguments and stir the pot, I find them far more annoying. Oh, and for those that belong to this group, please tell the members of the band to find a less obvious proxy server for their registration attempts.

itsnotrequired
12-27-2008, 01:59 AM
It's not just the wanna be GM's that think they are smarter than everyone because they do well at fantasy baseball or, memorize minor league stats, or both, they are annoying but most of the time amusing. You also have the faction that spend most of their time on another forum and only come here to incite arguments and stir the pot, I find them far more annoying. Oh, and for those that belong to this group, please tell the members of the band to find a less obvious proxy server for their registration attempts.

soxtalk.com, ftl

ilsox7
12-27-2008, 02:14 AM
It's not just the wanna be GM's that think they are smarter than everyone because they do well at fantasy baseball or, memorize minor league stats, or both, they are annoying but most of the time amusing. You also have the faction that spend most of their time on another forum and only come here to incite arguments and stir the pot, I find them far more annoying. Oh, and for those that belong to this group, please tell the members of the band to find a less obvious proxy server for their registration attempts.

The fact that this is how people spend their free time is pathetic. Not surprising, but pathetic.

TomBradley72
12-27-2008, 08:11 AM
I'm not sure why anyone would be "up in arms" over KW's moves at this point in the offseason. He's traded Swisher and Javy...2 guys who completely collapsed in the 2nd half and who had long term contracts. The trades brought multiple players in return who will either help replenish our farm system or be used as trade bait. Plus additional draft picks from OC's free agency. I think he's learned that you have to have the foundation of a decent farm system to have a consistently solid franchise without relying on alot of offseason moves each season to stay in contention. It's part of his development as a GM...I think he's using this offseason season as a long term strategic move to shift towards a greater emphasis on player development, not just for trade bait, but for the team at the major league level. That's part of being a good GM, having the guts to change direction and making the decisions to make it happen.

With that said, I don't think he's done. He was burned last year by talking publicly about moves he wanted to make, then having them fall through. I think he'll add either a CF or a 2nd baseman to the starting line up before Opening Day.

rdivaldi
12-27-2008, 11:40 AM
I'm not sure why anyone would be "up in arms" over KW's moves at this point in the offseason.

I don't think you can fault anyone who looks at what we received in return for Swisher and think that it was a bit light in comparison to what we gave up for him. I also don't think it's time to turn into "Chicken Little" either. It's extremely early in terms of the 2009 season, KW probably does have some moves on his radar. That doesn't necessarily mean he's going to pull them off, but I think it's extremely naive for anyone to declare that he's "done".

jabrch
12-27-2008, 11:56 AM
I don't think you can fault anyone who looks at what we received in return for Swisher and think that it was a bit light in comparison to what we gave up for him.

While that is true, I don't think that's a fair comparison. He came to a more hitter friendly park, and did worse. And while I am not a scout/coach/player, I didn't see anything to lead me to believe that this was a fluke. He never hit for much a batting average - and this year was even worse than his normal .250. His 25 HRs and 109 hits/82 walks just weren't worth much in almost 600 PAs. So what we got was a team willing to take his entire contract, give us at worst a serviceable UI (Betemit) and a few pitching prospects who may or may not pan out. As far as what we gave up for him, first, it isn't particularly relevant to what we got back, and second, was really a guy who projects to be a corner OF with no power and two pitching prospects who while they may have a ton of upside are just that - prospects. And today, neither are really top prospects as Gio got rocked in his time up and DLS underwent surgery.

I wish we got more for him - of course. But I don't see where it was coming from. And while it is too early to tell, looking at the lack of movement in FAs, I think a lot of teams will find a lot of value out there. 5mm for Nick Swisher doesn't look like a deal too many teams would be willing to eat today. The only thing worse than moving him when we did for what we did would have been holding him longer, finding no market for him, and then moving Dye for less than he was worth, or moving Nick and having to eat half that deal and still not get more than we got for him. There is no reason to have him on this roster next year to either play CF (he sucks at it - as we found) or to platoon in the corners/1B - not at that price, and not unless he makes a miraculous rebound.

TomBradley72
12-27-2008, 01:09 PM
I don't think you can fault anyone who looks at what we received in return for Swisher and think that it was a bit light in comparison to what we gave up for him.

I agree, we definitely "bought high/sold low" when it comes to Swisher. But after the season he had in 2008, and the size of his long term agreement, I don't think there was much of a market for a guy like Swisher, so I liked the move because he had become a "spare part" we didn't need and it frees up some of the salary budget. I was never a big fan of the deal to begin with, and never warmed at all to Swisher, but based on how DLS and Gio have turned out so far, I don't think this trade was the disaster it might have been.

Daver
12-27-2008, 03:03 PM
soxtalk.com, ftl


A perfect example of exactly what I was referring to.

itsnotrequired
12-27-2008, 03:14 PM
A perfect example of exactly what I was referring to.

:party:

Daver
12-27-2008, 05:57 PM
:party:


Eventually I will become weary of being annoyed, and take steps to remove the annoyance.

itsnotrequired
12-27-2008, 11:43 PM
Eventually I will become weary of being annoyed, and take steps to remove the annoyance.

agreed.

also,

http://news.yahoo.com/s/ap/20081227/ap_on_re_eu/eu_sweden_christmas_goat