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View Full Version : Nationals Sign Daniel Cabrera (KENNY! ***?!)


WhiteSoxFan84
12-21-2008, 12:57 AM
Surprised this hasn't been posted yet...

The Washington Nationals signed Daniel Cabrera to a one-year, $2.6mm deal. I'm kind of shocked that we didn't get him if he was going to cost under $3mm.... We can now (at least for this year) only imagine what Cooper might've been able to do with Cabrera's potential.

Link to Article (http://www.baltimoresun.com/sports/baseball/bal-orioles1220,0,3236627.story?track=rss) (thanks to mlbtraderumors.com)

johnnyg83
12-21-2008, 01:23 AM
interesting NL stat -- he's had 14 ABs in his ML career and struck out all 14 times.

hi im skot
12-21-2008, 01:26 AM
OMG! EVERYONE PANIC!



Sheesh.

WhiteSoxFan84
12-21-2008, 01:45 AM
OMG! EVERYONE PANIC!



Sheesh.

Do you do anything other than post garbage like this **** I'm quoting?
Have a thought for once. And quit trying to be the "funny guy" because you completely suck at it.



interesting NL stat -- he's had 14 ABs in his ML career and struck out all 14 times.

lol that is a very interesting stat.

Tragg
12-21-2008, 01:56 AM
He's had five major league seasons.....and five below average years of performance.
Sounds like a Nat to me.

There are better, and cheaper, players to take flyers on.

LoveYourSuit
12-21-2008, 01:56 AM
Yup, Cabrera had the makings of a typical Kenny move. Low risk high reward potential if someone can figure out his flaw. Has a golden arm, just nothing in the head it appears.

Maybe they know somehting we don't know, but that's very cheap high potential move that could have been made.

WhiteSoxFan84
12-21-2008, 01:59 AM
He's had five major league seasons.....and five below average years of performance.
Sounds like a Nat to me.

There are better, and cheaper, players to take flyers on.

Name four that would cost less than $3mm per. And I'm not being a jackass, I'm being serious.

Tragg
12-21-2008, 02:02 AM
Name four that would cost less than $3mm per. And I'm not being a jackass, I'm being serious.

I should have said better value players. Someone who's actually had a good year in his career would be a start. Or any number of minor leaguers who didn't reach their potential (a class this guy probably fits in...only thing is, he doesn't make the minimuim).

5 tries - 5 lousy seasons with high WHIPS and staggering ERAs.....we're lamenting not having this guy?

WhiteSoxFan84
12-21-2008, 02:05 AM
I should have said better value players. Someone who's actually had a good year in his career would be a start.

5 tries - 5 lousy seasons.....we're lamenting not having this guy?

I'm not lamenting but this offseason has been the most conservative offseason Kenny Williams has had. We've been begging for names like Abreu, Furcal, Hudson, etc., but for someone as inexpensive as Daniel Cabrera? Really? We can't even take a chance at him? If Kenny turns around and signs a guy like Ben Sheets, I'll be more than happy to forget about Cabrera. But that won't happen.

EDIT: by conservative I don't mean inactive.

hi im skot
12-21-2008, 02:11 AM
Do you do anything other than post garbage like this **** I'm quoting?
Have a thought for once. And quit trying to be the "funny guy" because you completely suck at it.


Sorry dude...my garbage post can't compete with your garbage thread title.

The last thing I wanted to do was be funny. I'm simply sick of everyone thinking they're a better GM than Kenny Williams.

whitesox901
12-21-2008, 02:13 AM
Sorry dude...my garbage post can't compete with your garbage thread title.

The last thing I wanted to do was be funny. I'm simply sick of everyone thinking they're a better GM than Kenny Williams.

Don't worry hi im skot, I think your funny

WhiteSoxFan84
12-21-2008, 02:16 AM
Sorry dude...my garbage post can't compete with your garbage thread title.

The last thing I wanted to do was be funny. I'm simply sick of everyone thinking they're a better GM than Kenny Williams.

If anyone on here thinks they're better than ANY GM in the MLB (Craig Grebeck thinks he's better than ALL of them) they're morons. I don't think that for a second. But is it wrong for me to have a "wish list" of players? And my wish list is made to fit our tight budget. I simply wanted Taveras, Cabrera, and either Furcal or Hudson off the FA market. Do the first 2 or all of those guys suck? I'm sure you can find at least one person around here to make a case for it but I don't care, it's my list and Cabrera was on it.

I was the one saying "In Kenny We Trust" after the Swisher deal and I'm still saying it now. I just hope he gave us an idea of what he plans to do with the rotation.

hi im skot
12-21-2008, 02:16 AM
Don't worry hi im skot, I think your funny

http://i79.photobucket.com/albums/j146/sschaaf/dwight1.gif

:redneck

Craig Grebeck
12-21-2008, 02:20 AM
If anyone on here thinks they're better than ANY GM in the MLB (Craig Grebeck thinks he's better than ALL of them) they're morons. I don't think that for a second. But is it wrong for me to have a "wish list" of players? And my wish list is made to fit our tight budget. I simply wanted Taveras, Cabrera, and either Furcal or Hudson off the FA market. Do the first 2 or all of those guys suck? I'm sure you can find at least one person around here to make a case for it but I don't care, it's my list and Cabrera was on it.

I was the one saying "In Kenny We Trust" after the Swisher deal and I'm still saying it now. I just hope he gave us an idea of what he plans to do with the rotation.
Get over me. Seriously. I don't think I'm better than any MLB GM, nor do I have any intention of working in baseball. I'm not stating any facts that can't be derived from a quick search of the interwebs.

WhiteSoxFan84
12-21-2008, 02:20 AM
Get over me.

That's what she said.

hi im skot
12-21-2008, 02:26 AM
If anyone on here thinks they're better than ANY GM in the MLB they're morons. I don't think that for a second.

Cool. We're totally on the same page there.

But is it wrong for me to have a "wish list" of players?

Not at all. That's part of the fun of being a fan during the off-season. However, I'm going to assume (and of course making assumptions can be a dangerous thing) that someone in the Sox organization determined that something about Cabrera didn't give them what they wanted. You're right - Cabrera has a decent upside, but the "experts" have been talking about his potential for years; maybe the guy just doesn't have the complete package...?

I was the one saying "In Kenny We Trust" after the Swisher deal and I'm still saying it now. I just hope he gave us an idea of what he plans to do with the rotation.

Right on. And really, I'm just as frustrated as you; I want to know what the heck KW has in store for this team. I still feel (and, I dunno, maybe you do, too) that he's going to to make some big move. Maybe not, but I have confidence that the moves that he makes (or doesn't make) will put us in a good spot.

WhiteSoxFan84
12-21-2008, 02:28 AM
Cool. We're totally on the same page there.



Not at all. That's part of the fun of being a fan during the off-season. However, I'm going to assume (and of course making assumptions can be a dangerous thing) that someone in the Sox organization determined that something about Cabrera didn't give them what they wanted. You're right - Cabrera has a decent upside, but the "experts" have been talking about his potential for years; maybe the guy just doesn't have the complete package...?



Right on. And really, I'm just as frustrated as you; I want to know what the heck KW has in store for this team. I still feel (and, I dunno, maybe you do, too) that he's going to to make some big move. Maybe not, but I have confidence that the moves that he makes (or doesn't make) will put us in a good spot.


I started to feel it after seeing the Dwight Schrute celebration but now I definitely know it to be a fact: YOU ARE A GOOD MAN!

And you just might end up being fit for the funny guy role after all...

hi im skot
12-21-2008, 02:30 AM
I started to feel it after seeing the Dwight Schrute celebration but now I definitely know it to be a fact: YOU ARE A GOOD MAN!

And you just might end up being fit for the funny guy role after all...

Haha, thanks. I didn't mean to jump down your throat early in the thread. I think you and I are pretty much in agreement on the off-season situation.

I'm no funny guy...I let itsnotrequired handle the role of "funny guy." Well, he and munchman...

:D:

cburns
12-21-2008, 03:57 AM
Yup, Cabrera had the makings of a typical Kenny move. Low risk high reward potential if someone can figure out his flaw.

I don't know if this is really low risk as he is being signed to a 2+ million dollar contract. Maybe if he took a minor league deal Cabrera would be worth it. I'd much rather the Sox spend that money somewhere else this offseason and try out the in house options. Having said that, if they don't spend the money anywhere else then why the hell not spend it on Cabrera if its only one year.

WhiteSox5187
12-21-2008, 04:55 AM
I think we have a tendency to really over value Coop as a pitching coach...he's a good pitching coach, but it would take nothing short of an act of divine intervention to fix Caberera's problems.

doublem23
12-21-2008, 11:10 AM
Daniel Cabrera ****ing sucks. The only bad thing about this signing is he's not on another AL Central team.

russ99
12-21-2008, 11:12 AM
Daniel Cabrera ****ing sucks. The only bad thing about this signing is he's not on another AL Central team.

Yeah, but he's better than Richard, Marquez, Broadway or whatever 2 kids we're gonna throw to the wolves at this point.

Kenny's always been solid on having good starting pitching, so I doubt we're the at the same place in mid-February.

turners56
12-21-2008, 11:17 AM
He would have been a good signing considering we're short of a fifth starter right now. But meh.

Tragg
12-21-2008, 11:46 AM
Yeah, but he's better than Richard, Marquez, Broadway or whatever 2 kids we're gonna throw to the wolves at this point.


Actually, he probably isn't. He's proven lousy over 5 ML seasons....those guys have talent and aren't proven incapable. The odds are that 1 will be pretty good and more than 1 can pitch to Cabrera standards.
Loading up the team with guaranteed bad is, well, bad.

nasox
12-21-2008, 01:06 PM
this thread is a huge sack of ****.

LoveYourSuit
12-21-2008, 01:21 PM
Yeah, but he's better than Richard, Marquez, Broadway or whatever 2 kids we're gonna throw to the wolves at this point.

Kenny's always been solid on having good starting pitching, so I doubt we're the at the same place in mid-February.


Agree 100%. I would take Cabrera over that group there. Cabrera has "ACE Material" stuff. He just can't throw strikes. Keep in mind that Cabrera has been taking a beating in the best division in baseball.

Craig Grebeck
12-21-2008, 01:35 PM
Agree 100%. I would take Cabrera over that group there. Cabrera has "ACE Material" stuff. He just can't throw strikes. Keep in mind that Cabrera has been taking a beating in the best division in baseball.
That's extremely important.

chaerulez
12-21-2008, 01:48 PM
You could argue for $3 million it was a low risk move and a decent idea. But this whole OMG COOPER CAN FIX HIM mentality is real meatball like. There is probably very little chance Cooper can get him to throw strikes to be an effective MLB pitcher, he's not a miracle worker.

LoveYourSuit
12-21-2008, 01:57 PM
That's extremely important.

I agree.

Contreras, Garland, Gavin, Thornton ....... all 4 guys made huge strides with their control issues when Coop had a chance to work with them. I also hate the notion that "Coop can fix everyone," but throwing strikes is something he has been able to work with in the past.

WhiteSoxFan84
12-21-2008, 02:12 PM
I agree.

Contreras, Garland, Gavin, Thornton ....... all 4 guys made huge strides with their control issues when Coop had a chance to work with them. I also hate the notion that "Coop can fix everyone," but throwing strikes is something he has been able to work with in the past.

GAME!
SET!
MATCH!

PWNAGE! :redneck

Great point LYS

btrain929
12-21-2008, 02:16 PM
That's what she said.

I like my "that's what she said" lines to be a little more dirty than that. But that's just me. We'll work on it, though...

WhiteSoxFan84
12-21-2008, 02:22 PM
Daniel Cabrera ****ing sucks. The only bad thing about this signing is he's not on another AL Central team.

Cabrera has only struggled against Detroit...
Career vs. Det: 6.28 ERA in 38.2 IP
Career vs. Cle: 1.83 ERA in 19.2 IP
Career vs. Min: 4.02 ERA in 62.2 IP
Career vs. KC: 2.21 ERA in 53.0 IP

We've hurt him also (5.00 ERA in 50.0 IP) but he wouldn't face us if we signed him (obviously). He would've been a very nice addition as our 4th or 5th especially against 3 of the 4 other teams in our division. I know Detroit is the team we have to worry about the most but how many times would he face them? Two or three times? With Cooper's help and a change of scenery, who knows, maybe he'd do well against Detroit also.

WhiteSoxFan84
12-21-2008, 02:24 PM
I like my "that's what she said" lines to be a little more dirty than that. But that's just me. We'll work on it, though...

Get over me? Are you kidding? If we could teleconference I'd explain to you how many steps ahead I am on that one lol... Think about it! :redneck

Dan the Man
12-21-2008, 02:31 PM
Not to sell Coop short, but Leo Mazzone couldn't get through to this guy. He's a nutcase and I doubt anyone will ever change that.

SBSoxFan
12-21-2008, 02:35 PM
I think we have a tendency to really over value Coop as a pitching coach...he's a good pitching coach, but it would take nothing short of an act of divine intervention to fix Caberera's problems.

On the surface, I don't see why Cabrera's issues would be any worse than Floyd's, and that's worked out well so far.

Having said that ...

I agree.

Contreras, Garland, Gavin, Thornton ....... all 4 guys made huge strides with their control issues when Coop had a chance to work with them. I also hate the notion that "Coop can fix everyone," but throwing strikes is something he has been able to work with in the past.

It's been well publicized that Coop saw a mechanical flaw in Thornton's delivery that Coop thought could be easily fixed.

I know I'm talking crazy here, but isn't it possible KW went to Coop, asked him about Cabrera, Coop said "no, I don't think I can help him", KW passed on Cabrera, and, as a result, this thread came into being?

WhiteSoxFan84
12-21-2008, 02:56 PM
I know I'm talking crazy here, but isn't it possible KW went to Coop, asked him about Cabrera, Coop said "no, I don't think I can help him", KW passed on Cabrera, and, as a result, this thread came into being?

It's possible but it doesn't mean it's true. And what kind of professional tells his boss "no, I can't help a guy that throws 95mph+ and has a ton of potential"? If Kenny liked this guy, he would've signed him and told Cooper to fix him if you can. It's a ONE YEAR deal, if he can't be fixed, we'll let him go after 2009.

LoveYourSuit
12-21-2008, 03:10 PM
It's possible but it doesn't mean it's true. And what kind of professional tells his boss "no, I can't help a guy that throws 95mph+ and has a ton of potential"? If Kenny liked this guy, he would've signed him and told Cooper to fix him if you can. It's a ONE YEAR deal, if he can't be fixed, we'll let him go after 2009.


The more I think of it, It comes down to $$$. The Sox are willing to roll the dice on a reclamaiton costing nothing. $2-3$ million was too high a price to pay, I guess.

WhiteSoxFan84
12-21-2008, 03:32 PM
The more I think of it, It comes down to $$$. The Sox are willing to roll the dice on a reclamaiton costing nothing. $2-3$ million was too high a price to pay, I guess.

You're probably right. It sucks to admit, but man we are going CHEAP. I feel like Cabrera and Gavin Floyd have a bit in common. If Kenny was able to trade for Cabrera and Cabrera was making the minimum rather than acquiring him for just under $3mm, then he would've done it.

DSpivack
12-21-2008, 03:35 PM
You're probably right. It sucks to admit, but man we are going CHEAP. I feel like Cabrera and Gavin Floyd have a bit in common. If Kenny was able to trade for Cabrera and Cabrera was making the minimum rather than acquiring him for just under $3mm, then he would've done it.

Do you have any evidence this is the case? Or are you just whining that we didn't waste $3 million on a guy who has proven nothing but that he can't pitch at a major league level?

WhiteSoxFan84
12-21-2008, 03:46 PM
Do you have any evidence this is the case? Or are you just whining that we didn't waste $3 million on a guy who has proven nothing but that he can't pitch at a major league level?

Really? Do I have to do the math for you? Taking a mental vacation?
Didn't we just trade away $15mm and spent less than $3mm? Don't tell me "ahhh, well we spent the money we saved on Swish to pay Dayan" because "that is total BS!". I'm not saying it's not true, I'm just saying when the hell is the last time you remember a player being paid more than 50% of his contract in year 1 of a 4 year deal? That's BS to get us to say "well they spent that money already". And I'm not saying KW is done dealing/acquiring players, but I'm going by what we know today and not assumptions of what may happen tomorrow.

LoveYourSuit
12-21-2008, 03:54 PM
Do you have any evidence this is the case? Or are you just whining that we didn't waste $3 million on a guy who has proven nothing but that he can't pitch at a major league level?


I don't know we can say it would be a "waste" of money unless the guy has reached his full potenial, I don't think anyone on this board is that high of an expert to determine that. Maybe Sox scouting already determined that the guy is done after 4-5 years of misery in a sucky Baltimore franchise.

My feeling on it, I would take a flyer on him for $2-$3 million for one season instead of putting all my hope on Richard/Marquez/Broadway. There is just so much upside still left IMO on Cabrera.

doublem23
12-21-2008, 03:55 PM
Really? Do I have to do the math for you? Taking a mental vacation?
Didn't we just trade away $15mm and spent less than $3mm? Don't tell me "ahhh, well we spent the money we saved on Swish to pay Dayan" because "that is total BS!". I'm not saying it's not true, I'm just saying when the hell is the last time you remember a player being paid more than 50% of his contract in year 1 of a 4 year deal? That's BS to get us to say "well they spent that money already". And I'm not saying KW is done dealing/acquiring players, but I'm going by what we know today and not assumptions of what may happen tomorrow.

Did it maybe ever occur to you Cabrera didn't want to come to the White Sox? Maybe he wanted to go to Washington because there he's almost guaranteed a spot in the rotation where here, at best he'd have to earn his way into the rotation?

Add that with the fact that Daniel Cabrera is complete garbage which leads me to believe this entire thread is just a joke. Complaining we didn't sign an awful, 28-year-old pitcher with a career ERA over 5 to an MLB deal with $3 million?

:rolling:

Jesus Christ.

doublem23
12-21-2008, 03:56 PM
My feeling on it, I would take a flyer on him for $2-$3 million for one season instead of putting all my hope on Richard/Marquez/Broadway. There is just so much upside still left IMO on Cabrera.

He's 28 years old and he's been absolutely terrible his last 2 seasons.

He. ****ing. Sucks.

Deal with it.

Konerko05
12-21-2008, 04:01 PM
2004: 1.585 WHIP
2005: 1.432 WHIP
2006: 1.581 WHIP
2007: 1.542 WHIP
2008: 1.606 WHIP

Cabrera will be 28 next season and he shown zero progress. He hasn't show any signs of improved control. He actually regressed last season. He had his worst season since his rookie year. His walks remained the same, but his strikeouts were way down. 95/90 SO/BB ratio at age 27. No thanks.

If Cabrera was 23 and making the league minimum it would definitely be a good signing.

BadBobbyJenks
12-21-2008, 04:04 PM
I now know why my Sidney Ponson thread was taking seriously by some.

LoveYourSuit
12-21-2008, 04:06 PM
Did it maybe ever occur to you Cabrera didn't want to come to the White Sox? Maybe he wanted to go to Washington because there he's almost guaranteed a spot in the rotation where here, at best he'd have to earn his way into the rotation?

Add that with the fact that Daniel Cabrera is complete garbage which leads me to believe this entire thread is just a joke. Complaining we didn't sign a garbage, 28-year-old pitcher with a career ERA over 5 to an MLB deal with $3 million?

:rolling:

Jesus Christ.


I don't think the thread is a joke.

Right now everyone is just looking around for some kind of action by the Sox, even a crappy move like this one which wasn't made. This move itself would have fit the mold of the 2008 offseason.

A thread about signing CC, AJ, Furcal, etc ..... now that's a complete joke based on the direction we are going.

A thread about signing a guy like Cabrera or Tavarez, not a joke to me because it does fit the mold of catching lightning in a bottle, sadly.

And to be honest, I don't consider a guy who can throw 95mph + and only 28 years of age to be considered garbage. Plus the fact that he has spent that last 5 years in such a crappy organization in addition to the best division in baseball, I might want to give the guy a careful look.

WhiteSoxFan84
12-21-2008, 04:07 PM
Did it maybe ever occur to you Cabrera didn't want to come to the White Sox? Maybe he wanted to go to Washington because there he's almost guaranteed a spot in the rotation where here, at best he'd have to earn his way into the rotation?

Add that with the fact that Daniel Cabrera is complete garbage which leads me to believe this entire thread is just a joke. Complaining we didn't sign an awful, 28-year-old pitcher with a career ERA over 5 to an MLB deal with $3 million?

:rolling:

Jesus Christ.

You're ASSuming a lot. Again, I'm going by facts; we didn't sign Daniel Cabrera (maybe because he can't be fixed in Kenny/Coop's minds, maybe because he didn't want to come here, maybe because he slept with Ozzie's wife, who knows? FACT is we didn't sign him) and we've been cheap so far this offseason. Those are facts. That's all I'm saying.



2004: 1.585 WHIP
2005: 1.432 WHIP
2006: 1.581 WHIP
2007: 1.542 WHIP
2008: 1.606 WHIP

Cabrera will be 28 next season and he shown zero progress. He hasn't show any signs of improved control. He actually regressed last season. He had his worst season since his rookie year. His walks remained the same, but his strikeouts were way down. 95/90 SO/BB ratio at age 27. No thanks.

If Cabrera was 23 and making the league minimum it would definitely be a good signing.

I'm not arguing that Cabrera is not bad. He has been bad, heck he's met bad and surpassed it. But like you said, he will be 28 (best days may still be ahead of him), has shown signs of being better than what his career numbers show, and maybe he just wasn't motivated at all in Baltimore? Until a player has been given a chance in a different environment, you can't write them off completely. Especially for under $3mm and ESPECIALLY when we've paid guys like McDougal and Uribe the same or $2mm more to be bad, VERY bad.

LoveYourSuit
12-21-2008, 04:09 PM
He's 28 years old and he's been absolutely terrible his last 2 seasons.

He. ****ing. Sucks.

Deal with it.


By your expert theory, the Sox should have never taken a look at Matt Thornton.

"Deal with that."

doublem23
12-21-2008, 04:09 PM
You're ASSuming a lot. Again, I'm going by facts; we didn't sign Daniel Cabrera (maybe because he can't be fixed in Kenny/Coop's minds, maybe because he didn't want to come here, maybe because he slept with Ozzie's wife, who knows? FACT is we didn't sign him) and we've been cheap so far this offseason. Those are facts. That's all I'm saying.

You're leaving out the most important FACT regarding this whole asinine thread:

Daniel Cabrera sucks.

BadBobbyJenks
12-21-2008, 04:10 PM
And to be honest, I don't consider a guy who can throw 95mph + and only 28 years of age to be considered garbage. Plus the fact that he has spent that last 5 years in such a crappy organization in addition to the best division in baseball, I might want to give the guy a careful look.

How did he fair under Mazzone? He is 28 and has been in the league 5 years, I think it is safe to say he is not very good.

DSpivack
12-21-2008, 04:12 PM
By your expert theory, the Sox should have never taken a look at Matt Thornton.

"Deal with that."

Thornton was decent his first season and bad his second. Daniel Cabrera has been around FIVE years and has yet to show anything. He's actually gotten worse.

BadBobbyJenks
12-21-2008, 04:12 PM
By your expert theory, the Sox should have never taken a look at Matt Thornton.

"Deal with that."

Maybe the worst comparison ever. When the Sox brought Matt in he had a whopping 1 and a half major league seasons under his belt.

itsnotrequired
12-21-2008, 04:13 PM
hi im skot should be jailed

LoveYourSuit
12-21-2008, 04:13 PM
How did he fair under Mazzone? He is 28 and has been in the league 5 years, I think it is safe to say he is not very good.


What has Mazzone done since he left ATL.... nothing, ZERO, nada.

WhiteSoxFan84
12-21-2008, 04:14 PM
You're leaving out the most important FACT regarding this whole asinine thread:

Daniel Cabrera sucks.


False. That's an opinion. His numbers suck, definitely, but hundreds of scouts would argue that your OPINION is wrong.
He's got the stuff and the potential to STILL be a very solid 3, 4, or 5 in the majors.

Try again.


What has Mazzone done since he left ATL.... nothing, ZERO, nada.

In fact, what did he do IN Atlanta? Give me Maddux, Smoltz, and Glavine and I'll look like a genius.
Heck, Mazzone in an interview recently said that he told Maddux (paraphrasing some) "you know Greg, I feel like you taught me more than I ever taught you" and Greg agreed.

LoveYourSuit
12-21-2008, 04:15 PM
Maybe the worst comparison ever. When the Sox brought Matt in he had a whopping 1 and a half major league seasons under his belt.


Same age was my point. We actually got Thornton when he was 29.

doublem23
12-21-2008, 04:15 PM
By your expert theory, the Sox should have never taken a look at Matt Thornton.

"Deal with that."

Yes, when I say that Daniel Cabrera sucks, I was painting with a broad brush that all reclamation projects are worthless. Let's look at some differences between the two:


Thornton was a very high draft pick who won numerous pitching awards in the minor leagues. Cabrera is of Dominican descent, so he was not drafted, but the only award he won at any pro level was he was an All-Star in the DSL... As a first baseman.
Cabrera's numbers have been substantially worse than Thornton's, especially at the MLB level.
Next year, Thornton, who has proven himself a reliable pitcher, will make less than half what the Nats will be paying DC to issue walks and serve homers up on a tee.

BadBobbyJenks
12-21-2008, 04:16 PM
False. That's an opinion. His numbers may suck, but hundreds of scouts would argue that your OPINION is wrong. He's got the stuff and the potential to be a very solid 3, 4, or 5 in the majors.

Try again.


Is that why he landed with the Nationals and a one year deal because of how highly regarded he is around baseball?:rolling:

BadBobbyJenks
12-21-2008, 04:17 PM
Same age was my point. We actually got Thornton when he was 29.

Not a very good point then.

WhiteSoxFan84
12-21-2008, 04:19 PM
Is that why he landed with the Nationals and a one year deal because how highly regarded he is around baseball?:rolling:

You or someone else said it earlier, he gets a sure shot in the Nationals' rotation and maybe no one offered him more? Doesn't mean no one believes in him being a middle of the rotation type of guy if/when "fixed".

LoveYourSuit
12-21-2008, 04:20 PM
Not a very good point then.

The poster was the one who mentioned age as one of the reasonse to pass on him. He believes he is long on the tooth at 28 and therefore he sucks.

LoveYourSuit
12-21-2008, 04:21 PM
Yes, when I say that Daniel Cabrera sucks, I was painting with a broad brush that all reclamation projects are worthless. Let's look at some differences between the two:


Thornton was a very high draft pick who won numerous pitching awards in the minor leagues. Cabrera is of Dominican descent, so he was not drafted, but the only award he won at any pro level was he was an All-Star in the DSL... As a first baseman.
Cabrera's numbers have been substantially worse than Thornton's, especially at the MLB level.
Next year, Thornton, who has proven himself a reliable pitcher, will make less than half what the Nats will be paying DC to issue walks and serve homers up on a tee.


Let me ask this, money aside, can he be better than Richard or Broadway?

doublem23
12-21-2008, 04:21 PM
False. That's an opinion. His numbers may suck, but hundreds of scouts would argue that your OPINION is wrong.
He's got the stuff and the potential to STILL be a very solid 3, 4, or 5 in the majors.

Try again.

And there were hundreds of scouts whose OPINION it would be that Scott Ruffcorn, Jon Rauch, Matt Bush, and Brien Taylor would be quality major league players, too. :dunno:

Look, if he signed a league minimum, minor league deal then yes, I'd say yes, I wish the Sox would have landed him just to see what could happen. He's getting paid millions of dollars to waste a roster spot for the Nationals now. He's not worth it. He's a great thrower, but he's a ****ty pitcher.

doublem23
12-21-2008, 04:24 PM
Let me ask this, money aside, can he be better than Richard or Broadway?

Maybe, but probably not.

LoveYourSuit
12-21-2008, 04:27 PM
Maybe, but probably not.

Because of upside, that's the only reason why I would have taken a flyer on the guy regardless of the $2million + salary.

Broadway, Richard, Cabrera are not that good right now. But I would take upside if I had to choose one.

WhiteSoxFan84
12-21-2008, 04:28 PM
And there were hundreds of scouts whose OPINION it would be that Scott Ruffcorn, Jon Rauch, Matt Bush, and Brien Taylor would be quality major league players, too. :dunno:

Look, if he signed a league minimum, minor league deal then yes, I'd say yes, I wish the Sox would have landed him just to see what could happen. He's getting paid millions of dollars to waste a roster spot for the Nationals now. He's not worth it. He's a great thrower, but he's a ****ty pitcher.

You might be right. I might be right. Who knows. What sucks is that we won't get an answer because he's going to another crappy team without a lot of motivation. I'm not going to start "FIRE KENNY!" threads because he didn't get this guy but it would've been nice. That being said, the primary and main point of this thread being created was the signing of Daniel Cabrera by the Washington Nationals. My "whining" was the secondary reason lol.

Now we move on from Cabrera being an option (some of us considered him an option for the Sox, some didn't) for the Sox and wait to see what Kenny has in store for us.

chaerulez
12-21-2008, 04:44 PM
I agree.

Contreras, Garland, Gavin, Thornton ....... all 4 guys made huge strides with their control issues when Coop had a chance to work with them. I also hate the notion that "Coop can fix everyone," but throwing strikes is something he has been able to work with in the past.

There's a lot of players Coop wasn't able to fix as well. He's a good pitching coach but he can't just make someone good.

LoveYourSuit
12-21-2008, 05:23 PM
There's a lot of players Coop wasn't able to fix as well. He's a good pitching coach but he can't just make someone good.

very true.

But Coop's most success has come from guys who have control issues.

thedudeabides
12-21-2008, 06:02 PM
For the people that wanted Cabrera: I'm just curious, outside of being able to throw 95, what potential do you see?

He has awful mechanics and can't repeat his delivery. He can't throw strikes, isn't a good groundball pitcher, isn't striking anyone out, and gives up a lot of hits....and homeruns.

Some people just see a radar gun and think that's all that matters. This guy really does suck. He has had 5 full seasons to show growth, and hasn't. In fact, he's been going in reverse.

I'm glad we passed, if they even did consider him.

Craig Grebeck
12-21-2008, 07:00 PM
I agree.

Contreras, Garland, Gavin, Thornton ....... all 4 guys made huge strides with their control issues when Coop had a chance to work with them. I also hate the notion that "Coop can fix everyone," but throwing strikes is something he has been able to work with in the past.
Only Thornton struggled as much as Cabrera with control. Cabrera also has shown for five seasons in MLB that he lacks any control over his pitches -- even with Leo Mazzone guiding him. There's no reason to believe Coop can turn him around.

Tragg
12-21-2008, 08:34 PM
very true.

But Coop's most success has come from guys who have control issues.

That's also what he's given to fix....hard throwers with control issues.

thomas35forever
12-21-2008, 08:56 PM
I'd be nervous about Cabrera if Kenny signed him. He does have high potential, but he never lives up to it. Plus, his recent numbers are poor. The Nationals can have him IMO.

WhiteSoxFan84
12-21-2008, 09:02 PM
I'd be nervous about Cabrera if Kenny signed him. He does have high potential, but he never lives up to it. Plus, his recent numbers are poor. The Nationals can have him IMO.

If he were to struggle that bad, couldn't we just send him down to AAA with his $2.6mm or so price tag like we did with MacDougal this past season? But if he were to even be halfway decent as our # 4 or # 5, then he can stick around the whole season and maybe get re-signed. It's not like I was suggesting the White Sox invest 7 years and/or $100mm on this guy.

DSpivack
12-21-2008, 09:19 PM
If he were to struggle that bad, couldn't we just send him down to AAA with his $2.6mm or so price tag like we did with MacDougal this past season? But if he were to even be halfway decent as our # 4 or # 5, then he can stick around the whole season and maybe get re-signed. It's not like I was suggesting the White Sox invest 7 years and/or $100mm on this guy.

So you went to spend $2.6 mil on a guy who could be pitching for Charlotte the whole year?

Craig Grebeck
12-21-2008, 09:22 PM
So you went to spend $2.6 mil on a guy who could be pitching for Charlotte the whole year?
I agree. Cabrera's future, more than likely, lies in the bullpen, and a team like the Nationals, who won't contend and shouldn't plan to in 2009, can afford to take a gamble on giving Cabrera thirty starts.

WhiteSoxFan84
12-21-2008, 09:30 PM
So you went to spend $2.6 mil on a guy who could be pitching for Charlotte the whole year?

Or a guy who could end up impressing even the likes of you. Of course I'd prefer the latter but it's an investment worth the risk. Mid to low risk, high reward.

Craig Grebeck
12-21-2008, 09:33 PM
Or a guy who could end up impressing even the likes of you. Of course I'd prefer the latter but it's an investment worth the risk. Mid to low risk, high reward.
But what is his ceiling? He hasn't showed any promise on the major league level, and any improvement in his control has been met with more hits.

WhiteSoxFan84
12-21-2008, 09:37 PM
But what is his ceiling? He hasn't showed any promise on the major league level, and any improvement in his control has been met with more hits.

No one, yourself and myself included, know what his ceiling is. If he had signed with us, I would've hoped we'd be seeing him head in the direction towards his ceiling rather than staying put or going in the opposite direction. But that doesn't matter anymore.

DSpivack
12-21-2008, 10:08 PM
No one, yourself and myself included, know what his ceiling is. If he had signed with us, I would've hoped we'd be seeing him head in the direction towards his ceiling rather than staying put or going in the opposite direction. But that doesn't matter anymore.

He's had plenty of time to prove himself in the big leagues. Leo freaking' Mazzone couldn't have him pitch well, no one can.

btrain929
12-21-2008, 10:23 PM
HEY, let's FREAK out!

??

WhiteSoxFan84
12-21-2008, 10:32 PM
He's had plenty of time to prove himself in the big leagues. Leo freaking' Mazzone couldn't have him pitch well, no one can.

Mazzone is beyond overrated. Besides the Big 3 (who we can argue didn't need him, as I said in another thread yesterday, he said he felt like he didn't teach Maddux a thing and Greg agreed), who is he given credit for developing? John Rocker? Come on now.

Craig Grebeck
12-21-2008, 10:43 PM
Mazzone is beyond overrated. Besides the Big 3 (who we can argue didn't need him, as I said in another thread yesterday, he said he felt like he didn't teach Maddux a thing and Greg agreed), who is he given credit for developing? John Rocker? Come on now.
Teal?

I'm just glancing at his Wikipedia page, but Russ Ortiz, Denny Neagle, and Jaret Wright all flourished under Mazzone.

Also of note...

In his book The Baseball Economist, J.C. Bradbury titles a chapter, "How Good is Leo Mazzone?" Using statistical analysis, he analyzes whether Mazzone had a significant impact upon the pitchers that he coached. The sample is all pitchers who have pitched at least one year under Mazzone and one year under a different pitching coach. Bradbury found that Mazzone lowered the ERA of pitchers by an average of .64 points, and that after leaving Mazzone, pitchers' ERA increased by an average of .78 points. Bradbury believes that such an impact is deserving of Hall of Fame consideration.

http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Leo_Mazzone

tstrike2000
12-21-2008, 10:45 PM
Looking at Cabrera's stats I would say the most alarming thing is how his strikeout ratio has gone down. He's supposed to be a power pitcher, but he only had 95 K's in 180.00 innings last year. I think even Jamie Moyer had more K's.

WhiteSoxFan84
12-21-2008, 10:47 PM
Teal?

I'm just glancing at his Wikipedia page, but Russ Ortiz, Denny Neagle, and Jaret Wright all flourished under Mazzone.

Also of note...



http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Leo_Mazzone

yes teal. and more teal. and you're using WIKIPEDIA as a source now? awesome.

there were a lot of fishy things going on in atlanta in the 90's. im not saying steroids, but remember their broadcasters getting suspended and fined by the team for saying something about "it seems like the braves pitchers have strike zones that are 2 inches bigger than other pitchers". THEIR OWN ANNOUNCERS SAID THIS! whether it's true or not, who knows. even more, who cares?

my point is, mazzone has done much in the 2000's. all those guys you named are dead. no CB, don't bother looking it up, just believe your good ole friend WSF84, they're dead.

Craig Grebeck
12-21-2008, 10:48 PM
yes teal. and more teal. and you're using WIKIPEDIA as a source now? awesome.

there were a lot of fishy things going on in atlanta in the 90's. im not saying steroids, but remember their broadcasters getting suspended and fined by the team for saying something about "it seems like the braves pitchers have strike zones that are 2 inches bigger than other pitchers". THEIR OWN ANNOUNCERS SAID THIS! whether it's true or not, who knows. even more, who cares?

my point is, mazzone has done much in the 2000's. all those guys you named are dead. no CB, don't bother looking it up, just believe your good ole friend WSF84, they're dead.
Why do you even bother posting sometimes? Here I am, posting evidence that Leo Mazzone markedly improves pitcher performances, as found by J.C. Bradbury, and you cite some anecdote about their announcers making a comment about strike zones. Brilliant.

Edit: After a quick search, I found the incident you referenced. I still think it's preposterous to claim Leo Mazzone couldn't help Cabrera, but Don Cooper will.

BadBobbyJenks
12-21-2008, 11:07 PM
10 pitchers under Mazzone made the all star game. It is not just Maddux, Smoltz and Glavine.
Kevin Millwood was at his best with the Braves. So was Denny Neagle. Horacio Ramirez also had his best season under Mazzone.

Hell even Daniel Cabrera had his least terrible season under Mazzone!

doublem23
12-21-2008, 11:32 PM
I can't believe this is going to get a Tomato.

/head slap

WhiteSoxFan84
12-21-2008, 11:59 PM
Why do you even bother posting sometimes? Here I am, posting evidence that Leo Mazzone markedly improves pitcher performances, as found by J.C. Bradbury, and you cite some anecdote about their announcers making a comment about strike zones. Brilliant.

Edit: After a quick search, I found the incident you referenced. I still think it's preposterous to claim Leo Mazzone couldn't help Cabrera, but Don Cooper will.

You crave so much attention it's amazing. And you know what? It's my fault, I give it to you. And that's over with. I don't care what problems you have at home, I'm no longer giving you the attention you're not getting offline.




10 pitchers under Mazzone made the all star game. It is not just Maddux, Smoltz and Glavine.
Kevin Millwood was at his best with the Braves. So was Denny Neagle. Horacio Ramirez also had his best season under Mazzone.

Hell even Daniel Cabrera had his least terrible season under Mazzone!

He's been coaching for how long? 300 years? And you can NAME all the all-stars he coached? Come on. Don Cooper has been around for like 5 years and he has coached 4 All-Stars that I can name off the top of my head (Buehrle, Garland, Jenks, Contreras) in about 1/5th of the time it took Cooper. And do you guys think that maybe Mazzone was "so good" because he was around Bobby Cox? What did he do in Baltimore? Zippo.

LoveYourSuit
12-22-2008, 12:11 AM
I can't believe this is going to get a Tomato.

/head slap


I would like to see the shoe on the other foot had Kenny made the move for him:

"Kenny is a genius."
"In Kenny we trust."
"Another steal for Kenny."
"Kenny flying under the radar."
"This guy will win 20 under Coop."

Every move Kenny makes or doesn't make is considered golden here. Starting to become very Cub Nationlike. No one can have a critical/opposing opinion about the Sox without getting blasted.

I don't care either way about Cabrera, but I do think there is good upside to him for the price tag of $2 million, especially in this market for pitching.

DSpivack
12-22-2008, 12:15 AM
I would like to see the shoe on the other foot had Kenny made the move for him:

"Kenny is a genius."
"In Kenny we trust."
"Another steal for Kenny."
"Kenny flying under the radar."
"This guy will win 20 under Coop."

Every move Kenny makes or doesn't make is considered golden here. Starting to become very Cub Nationlike. No one can have a critical/opposing opinion about the Sox without getting blasted.

I don't care either way about Cabrera, but I do think there is good upside to him for the price tag of $2 million, especially in this market for pitching.

It has nothing to do with KW. Some proposed signing Daniel Cabrera for $2.6 mil; then the argument came against that move. I don't see what that has to do with one's opinion on the current GM. If you don't want your suggestion to be critiqued, don't post it.

WhiteSoxFan84
12-22-2008, 12:32 AM
It has nothing to do with KW. Some proposed signing Daniel Cabrera for $2.6 mil; then the argument came against that move. I don't see what that has to do with one's opinion on the current GM. If you don't want your suggestion to be critiqued, don't post it.

False. Someone suggested/ASSumed that Kenny didn't like Cabrera and that's why he didn't sign him.

LoveYourSuit
12-22-2008, 12:33 AM
It has nothing to do with KW. Some proposed signing Daniel Cabrera for $2.6 mil; then the argument came against that move. I don't see what that has to do with one's opinion on the current GM. If you don't want your suggestion to be critiqued, don't post it.

The way pricing for pitching has gone off the charts once again, $2.6 million does not sound way out of line for a guy like Cabrera.


It has nothing to do with KW. It's just that anytime someone critiques the Sox or management for anything, it's like the sirens go way off for the defense team to come in here and blast your opinion. The "totally biased" thing gets taken way to serious here.

Konerko05
12-22-2008, 12:34 AM
False. Someone suggested/ASSumed that Kenny didn't like Cabrera and that's why he didn't sign him.

I would say that's a pretty logical assumption.

DSpivack
12-22-2008, 12:36 AM
False. Someone suggested/ASSumed that Kenny didn't like Cabrera and that's why he didn't sign him.

OK, that's one person, how does that change anything else? Maybe he didn't go after him because he sucks. It's silly to speculate who or who not KW is interested in; the only facts there are in who he actually does acquire. Everything else, in terms of who some fans may want acquired and who others fans prefer, is nothing but speculation and offseason nonsense. It's not about stifling someone else's ideas; if there idea is dumb, then that will be heard.

WhiteSoxFan84
12-22-2008, 12:41 AM
I would say that's a pretty logical assumption.

Logical assumption, opposite of illogical assumption, is still ASSumption.


OK, that's one person, how does that change anything else? Maybe he didn't go after him because he sucks. It's silly to speculate who or who not KW is interested in; the only facts there are in who he actually does acquire. Everything else, in terms of who some fans may want acquired and who others fans prefer, is nothing but speculation and offseason nonsense. It's not about stifling someone else's ideas; if there idea is dumb, then that will be heard.

"When they think they have the answer, you change the question" that's how you live your life huh? You said "it has nothing to do with Kenny" which I proved was false. I stopped reading your quoted message above after the first sentence.

BadBobbyJenks
12-22-2008, 12:41 AM
He's been coaching for how long? 300 years? And you can NAME all the all-stars he coached? Come on. Don Cooper has been around for like 5 years and he has coached 4 All-Stars that I can name off the top of my head (Buehrle, Garland, Jenks, Contreras) in about 1/5th of the time it took Cooper. And do you guys think that maybe Mazzone was "so good" because he was around Bobby Cox? What did he do in Baltimore? Zippo.

Well if you want to play that game, what has Bobby Cox done since Mazzone left? Zippo.

It is absurd to say Mazzone had nothing to do with what happened in Atlanta during the 90's. 10 different all star pitchers sounds like a lot to me.

LoveYourSuit
12-22-2008, 12:46 AM
OK, that's one person, how does that change anything else? Maybe he didn't go after him because he sucks. It's silly to speculate who or who not KW is interested in; the only facts there are in who he actually does acquire. Everything else, in terms of who some fans may want acquired and who others fans prefer, is nothing but speculation and offseason nonsense. It's not about stifling someone else's ideas; if there idea is dumb, then that will be heard.

Fields
Owens
Wise
BA
Richard
Broadway

They all suck too and Kenny is banking on big things from most of them. So maybe Cabrera would have fit right in too. :shrug:

I think that's the saddest thing about this thread. The direction of this team this offseason has left us grasping for crap like this. Instead of wanting CC we are left desiring Cabrera. Very sad.

WhiteSoxFan84
12-22-2008, 12:48 AM
Well if you want to play that game, what has Bobby Cox done since Mazzone left? Zippo.

It is absurd to say Mazzone had nothing to do with what happened in Atlanta during the 90's. 10 different all star pitchers sounds like a lot to me.

lol, wow. You should've just stayed out of this one...

2008 stats under Bobby Cox (minimum 50 IP)...
Manny Acosta: 3-5, 3.57 ERA
Buddy Carlyle: 2-0, 3.59 ERA
Jair Jurrjens: 13-10, 3.68 ERA
Will Ohman: 4-1, 3.68 ERA (did have 1 better year in 2005)
Jorge Campillo: 8-7, 3.91 ERA
Jeff Bennett: 3-7, 3.90 ERA

Konerko05
12-22-2008, 12:49 AM
Logical assumption, opposite of illogical assumption, is still ASSumption.

That's really cute how you capitilize the s's.

Everybody should model their posts after WhiteSoxfan84. Every post is filled with insightful factual information.

WhiteSoxFan84
12-22-2008, 12:51 AM
That's really cute how you capitilize the s's.

Everybody should model their posts after WhiteSoxfan84. Every post is filled with insightful factual information.

You know... for you to say kind words like that in the middle of a debate... that... that right there man. That right there is why I like you man!

BadBobbyJenks
12-22-2008, 12:59 AM
lol, wow. You should've just stayed out of this one...

2008 stats under Bobby Cox (minimum 50 IP)...
Manny Acosta: 3-5, 3.57 ERA
Buddy Carlyle: 2-0, 3.59 ERA
Jair Jurrjens: 13-10, 3.68 ERA
Will Ohman: 4-1, 3.68 ERA (did have 1 better year in 2005)
Jorge Campillo: 8-7, 3.91 ERA
Jeff Bennett: 3-7, 3.90 ERA

Wow you really showed me! You throw a bunch of relievers at me and two starters?

How about the team eras of:
EDITED:
2006: 4.6
2007: 4.11
2008: 4.46

WhiteSoxFan84
12-22-2008, 01:07 AM
Wow you really showed me! You throw a bunch of relievers at me and two starters?

How about the team eras of:

2006: 4.97
2007: 4.52
2008: 4.82

Ummm.... are you making up **** again? Atlanta's team ERA in 2008 was 4.46 (http://sports.espn.go.com/mlb/stats/aggregate?sort=ERA&split=0&group=9&season=2008&seasonType=2&statType=pitching&type=reg). In 2007 it was 4.11 (http://sports.espn.go.com/mlb/stats/aggregate?sort=ERA&split=0&group=9&season=2007&seasonType=2&statType=pitching&type=reg). In 2006 it was 4.60 (http://sports.espn.go.com/mlb/stats/aggregate?sort=ERA&split=0&group=9&season=2006&seasonType=2&statType=pitching&type=reg).

Did you think I wouldn't check or something? Wow.... making up stats to TRY to win a meaningless on-line debate...... that's pretty damn sad BBJ.

BadBobbyJenks
12-22-2008, 01:11 AM
Ummm.... are you making up **** again? Atlanta's team ERA in 2008 was 4.46. In 2007 it was 4.11. In 2006 it was 4.60.

Did you think I wouldn't check or something? Wow.... making up stats to TRY to win a meaningless on-line debate...... that's pretty damn sad BBJ.

My fault I was looking at wrong column on baseball reference. Calm down tiger.

I am glad you checked my work because that further strengthens my argument. Thank you. Mazzone had two seasons over 4 in his tenure with the Braves. 4.05 and 4.10.

And you said again like I made **** up before?

DSpivack
12-22-2008, 01:17 AM
Fields
Owens
Wise
BA
Richard
Broadway

They all suck too and Kenny is banking on big things from most of them. So maybe Cabrera would have fit right in too. :shrug:

I think that's the saddest thing about this thread. The direction of this team this offseason has left us grasping for crap like this. Instead of wanting CC we are left desiring Cabrera. Very sad.

Spending $160 mil on one pitcher, whose weight could be a problem, I don't think would have been a wise proposition. No team can afford to spend 1/5 of the payroll on one player. That said, I wouldn't have minded to go after some of the other free agent pitchers, but without knowing the specifics of the finances involved and what the payroll may be set at it, it's very hard to speculate what should be done.

WhiteSoxFan84
12-22-2008, 01:21 AM
My fault I was looking at wrong column on baseball reference. Calm down tiger.

I am glad you checked my work because that further strengthens my argument. Thank you. Mazzone had two seasons over 4 in his tenure with the Braves. 4.05 and 4.10.

And you said again like I made **** up before?

BBJ, I think if you were the pitching coach of the Braves when they had Smoltz, Maddux, and Glavine AND when they were spending money and committed to winning every year (not to say they're not anymore, but they're not the powerhouse they were in the 1990's when it comes to acquiring high-profiled players), you'd be looked at as being successful.

DSpivack
12-22-2008, 01:29 AM
BBJ, I think if you were the pitching coach of the Braves when they had Smoltz, Maddux, and Glavine AND when they were spending money and committed to winning every year (not to say they're not anymore, but they're not the powerhouse they were in the 1990's when it comes to acquiring high-profiled players), you'd be looked at as being successful.

You keep missing the point, though. Mazzone time and time again brought in guys who hadn't done much elsewhere, and they would have very good seasons in Atlanta, then after leaving the Braves and getting paid elsewhere, wouldn't do as well [Denny Neagle, Russ Ortiz, Jaret Wright, et al]. Also the cited study what Mazzone meant to his team in terms of ERA. It's more than just Smoltz, Maddux, and Glavine; also, why doesn't Mazzone get credit for them? Two of them learned under his tutelage as youngsters, the other had his best seasons in Braves uniforms.

BadBobbyJenks
12-22-2008, 01:31 AM
BBJ, I think if you were the pitching coach of the Braves when they had Smoltz, Maddux, and Glavine AND when they were spending money and committed to winning every year (not to say they're not anymore, but they're not the powerhouse they were in the 1990's when it comes to acquiring high-profiled players), you'd be looked at as being successful.

When all else fails go back to the big three argument. Like DS just pointed out look at how many pitchers made their careers under Mazzone.

WhiteSoxFan84
12-22-2008, 01:31 AM
You keep missing the point, though. Mazzone time and time again brought in guys who hadn't done much elsewhere, and they would have very good seasons in Atlanta, then after leaving the Braves and getting paid elsewhere, wouldn't do as well [Denny Neagle, Russ Ortiz, Jaret Wright, et al]. Also the cited study what Mazzone meant to his team in terms of ERA. It's more than just Smoltz, Maddux, and Glavine; also, why doesn't Mazzone get credit for them? Two of them learned under his tutelage as youngsters, the other had his best seasons in Braves uniforms.

I'm not saying he's not good. I just don't think he's that great. Bobby Cox helped a lot. And having those 3 I mentioned helped a lot also. It's like people who love to claim that Phil Jackson is such a god when it comes to NBA coaches. He simply is not. He was the missing piece for the Bulls and the Lakers, yes, but it doesn't mean he was the only one that could've done what he did with the talent he had. Same for Leo.

doublem23
12-22-2008, 01:32 AM
False. Someone suggested/ASSumed that Kenny didn't like Cabrera and that's why he didn't sign him.

He probably didn't like him because he's ****ing terrible. This thread isn't about KW, it's about some posters who have a boner for a guy who in over 800 innings of work at the MLB level has shown absolutely nothing that would suggest he's capable of being an average, let alone quality, starter in the Majors and whether or not we should have gotten in a multimillion dollar bidding war for him, because I guess or BP coaches aren't good enough?

:dunno:

WhiteSoxFan84
12-22-2008, 01:34 AM
He probably didn't like him because he's ****ing terrible. This thread isn't about KW, it's about some posters who have a boner for a guy who in over 800 innings of work at the MLB level has shown absolutely nothing that would suggest he's capable of being an average, let alone quality, starter at the Major League level and whether or not we should have gotten in a multimillion dollar bidding war for him, because I guess or BP coaches aren't good enough?

:dunno:

Very classy doublem. Very classy.
On that note, I'll just stop responding in this thread.

doublem23
12-22-2008, 01:38 AM
Very classy doublem. Very classy.
On that note, I'll just stop responding in this thread.

Well, we need to find someone else to defend the 28-year-old who had a 5.25 ERA, a 1.606 WHIP, and 1:1.06 BB/K rate from last year and why we should be pissed he was the fish that got away!!!

http://www.orioleshangout.com/images/articleimages/dcabrera06.jpg

You're on the White Sox, Daniel... If only in my dreams.

Konerko05
12-22-2008, 01:40 AM
Very classy doublem. Very classy.
On that note, I'll just stop responding in this thread.

Yeah, way to take it too far Doublem. This thread was pure class until you showed up.

WhiteSoxFan84
12-22-2008, 01:43 AM
Yeah, way to take it too far Doublem. This thread was pure class until you showed up.

OH GOD! CRAIG GREBECK'S OTHER HALF. COME ON!
Do you guys go EVERYWHERE together??

I know I said I wouldn't respond again in this thread but this guy again?!

Ok, NOW I'm done.

doublem23
12-22-2008, 01:45 AM
Yeah, way to take it too far Doublem. This thread was pure class until you showed up.

I just ASSumed no one would mind a little boner joke at midnight.

:whiner:

LoveYourSuit
12-22-2008, 01:45 AM
He probably didn't like him because he's ****ing terrible. This thread isn't about KW, it's about some posters who have a boner for a guy who in over 800 innings of work at the MLB level has shown absolutely nothing that would suggest he's capable of being an average, let alone quality, starter in the Majors and whether or not we should have gotten in a multimillion dollar bidding war for him, because I guess or BP coaches aren't good enough?

:dunno:


Yup, count me in as one of those who I guess " has a boner" for the guy. Only reason I have one is because the other 2 opitions I see right now in Richard and Marquez don't do anything for me. It's like I'm searching for the least ugly girl on the dance floor.

LoveYourSuit
12-22-2008, 01:47 AM
I just ASSumed no one would mind a little boner joke at midnight.

:whiner:


No, but the MODS will..... :o:Oh, nevermind.


:tongue:

WhiteSoxFan84
12-22-2008, 01:49 AM
Yup, count me in as one of those who I guess " has a boner" for the guy. Only reason I have one is because the other 2 opitions I see right now in Richard and Marquez don't do anything for me. It's like I'm searching for the least ugly girl on the dance floor.

What year was it that we had the revolving door as our 5th starting pitcher? 2004? Well, 2009 will be be the same exact thing except this time the 4th AND 5th spots will be revolving doors.

I'll set the over/under of number of starters we try in 2009 at 11.5

Last post! I promise!... OK, probably not, but I promise to try!

Konerko05
12-22-2008, 01:51 AM
I just ASSumed no one would mind a little boner joke at midnight.

:whiner:

Haha, nice. :cool:

Don't worry it was a BONafide attempt.

BadBobbyJenks
12-22-2008, 01:53 AM
Haha, nice. :cool:

Don't worry it was a BONafide attempt.

Ok now you guys are just being riDICulous

doublem23
12-22-2008, 01:54 AM
Yup, count me in as one of those who I guess " has a boner" for the guy. Only reason I have one is because the other 2 opitions I see right now in Richard and Marquez don't do anything for me. It's like I'm searching for the least ugly girl on the dance floor.

What year was it that we had the revolving door as our 5th starting pitcher? 2004? Well, 2009 will be be the same exact thing except this time the 4th AND 5th spots will be revolving doors.

I'll set the over/under of number of starters we try in 2009 at 11.5

Don't think I don't agree with you that the back end of our rotation is pathetic. I just don't think Daniel Cabrera is the answer we're looking for. For what Washington signed him, he'd be a waste of resources. There are other, equally bad pitchers out there that won't command Cabrera's salary.

LoveYourSuit
12-22-2008, 01:58 AM
Don't think I don't agree with you that the back end of our rotation is pathetic. I just don't think Daniel Cabrera is the answer we're looking for. For what Washington signed him, he'd be a waste of resources. There are other, equally bad pitchers out there that won't command Cabrera's salary.


Well, let's just hope so. Right now any move would be a great move, or it will feel this way because of the lack of substance we have at #4 and #5.

jabrch
12-22-2008, 02:38 AM
What year was it that we had the revolving door as our 5th starting pitcher? 2004?

That's what we were being told at this time last year. How'd that work out for you?

doublem23
12-22-2008, 02:41 AM
That's what we were being told at this time last year. How'd that work out for you?

Please stop comparing Marquez/Broadway/Richard/Other Slop to Danks and Floyd.

WhiteSoxFan84
12-22-2008, 02:49 AM
Please stop comparing Marquez/Broadway/Richard/Other Slop to Danks and Floyd.

Thank you for taking the words out of my mouth.
I actually liked Floyd when he was in Philly. Hell, I was PRAYING that we'd somehow get Floyd AND Ryan Madson. That would've been amazing.
As for the Danks/Masset trade, I'll admit, I thought Masset would be the better of the two. But I wasn't nearly as worried about Floyd/Danks being in our rotation as I will be if garbage and garbage # 2 are in our rotation in 2009.

Frater Perdurabo
12-22-2008, 08:03 AM
I can't believe this is going to get a Tomato.

/head slap

Took awhile, but here ya go! :tongue:

:tomatoaward:

Craig Grebeck
12-22-2008, 08:37 AM
You crave so much attention it's amazing. And you know what? It's my fault, I give it to you. And that's over with. I don't care what problems you have at home, I'm no longer giving you the attention you're not getting offline.
Haha. Alright, man, whatever. My point still stands; you haven't said a damn thing in reply to the study done by J.C. Bradbury and the "Mazzone effect."

He's been coaching for how long? 300 years? And you can NAME all the all-stars he coached? Come on. Don Cooper has been around for like 5 years and he has coached 4 All-Stars that I can name off the top of my head (Buehrle, Garland, Jenks, Contreras) in about 1/5th of the time it took Cooper. And do you guys think that maybe Mazzone was "so good" because he was around Bobby Cox? What did he do in Baltimore? Zippo
Do you really think Don Cooper is better than Leo Mazzone?

tstrike2000
12-22-2008, 09:01 AM
Although this thread has turned into a debate of pitching coaches (among other things) it also has to be the longest thread I've ever seen about a crappy pitcher.

sox102
12-22-2008, 10:14 AM
Can't we all just get along?

areilly
12-22-2008, 11:13 AM
I agree.

Contreras, Garland, Gavin, Thornton ....... all 4 guys made huge strides with their control issues when Coop had a chance to work with them. I also hate the notion that "Coop can fix everyone," but throwing strikes is something he has been able to work with in the past.

True, but people also seem to overlook how many of Cooper's reclamation projects regress after a year. Contreras, Garland, Esteban Loaiza and Neal Cotts all come to mind. Thornton, conversely, has worked out great; same for Bobby Jenks and hopefully Gavin Floyd can hold on to whatever he tapped into last season.

This isn't a knock on Cooper by any means, as there is no pitching coach I would rather the Sox have on board. But it would be nice if Cooper's teachings stuck a little longer. . . although I am not the one to say whether this is a flaw in Cooper or in his pitching minions.

soxinem1
12-22-2008, 11:21 AM
What a crap contract for a failure. Nearly $3 million for a guy who is just a thrower? C'mon, he didn't rate a $700,000 deal.

I'm glad KW didn't waste that kind of cash on him.

The guy is a head case. After he fails in WAS, he'll be making the rounds to PIT, KC, DET, SD, etc.

The good news for Cabrera is, he doesn't need to buy a new house.

areilly
12-22-2008, 11:22 AM
He's been coaching for how long? 300 years? And you can NAME all the all-stars he coached? Come on. Don Cooper has been around for like 5 years and he has coached 4 All-Stars that I can name off the top of my head (Buehrle, Garland, Jenks, Contreras) in about 1/5th of the time it took Cooper. And do you guys think that maybe Mazzone was "so good" because he was around Bobby Cox? What did he do in Baltimore? Zippo.

Cooper's been the Sox' pitching coach since July '02 and has coached four All-Stars. Mazzone became the Braves' pitching coach in June 1990 and delivered 10 All-Stars in 16.5 seasons. But why not compare them using a less flimsy metric like Cy Young winners or staff totals or league leaders?


[As as aside, here's Coop's interesting, poorly formatted bio (http://chicago.whitesox.mlb.com/team/coach_staff_bio.jsp?c_id=cws&coachorstaffid=41310315037).]

jabrch
12-22-2008, 12:13 PM
Please stop comparing Marquez/Broadway/Richard/Other Slop to Danks and Floyd.

I'm comparing the whining, bitching and moaning.

WhiteSoxFan84
12-22-2008, 02:08 PM
Do you really think Don Cooper is better than Leo Mazzone?

Absolultely not. Mazzone >>> Cooper. Now if Cooper gets lucky and the White Sox draft/sign guys similar to Maddux/Smoltz to add on to Buehrle (who maybe good and we love him, but he's no Tom Glavine) and they stick around for 4+ years, then we'll compare finish products and compare their careers. But as of right now, Mazzone has a huge advantage.



Cooper's been the Sox' pitching coach since July '02 and has coached four All-Stars. Mazzone became the Braves' pitching coach in June 1990 and delivered 10 All-Stars in 16.5 seasons. But why not compare them using a less flimsy metric like Cy Young winners or staff totals or league leaders?


[As as aside, here's Coop's interesting, poorly formatted bio (http://chicago.whitesox.mlb.com/team/coach_staff_bio.jsp?c_id=cws&coachorstaffid=41310315037).]


Tom Glavine, John Smoltz, and Greg Maddux are each better than any pitcher Cooper has been able to coach during his tenure with the White Sox. Now imagine having all 3 of those guys at the same time for the better part of a decade? Holy crap!

And how do we know it wasn't Maddux and the boys helping the other pitchers out? Why is it that everywhere Maddux goes, all the other pitchers on his team sit next to him on the days he doesn't pitch and listen to him? Come on guys, I'm not saying Mazzone sucks, he doesn't. But he's not as good as some of you and the media make him out to be. He proved that in Baltimore.


I'm comparing the whining, bitching and moaning.

What will you compare next? ***** sizes? I don't understand some of you, if you don't like a certain thread, avoid it. Why add on to it??

Frater Perdurabo
12-22-2008, 02:38 PM
Although this thread has turned into a debate of pitching coaches (among other things) it also has to be the longest thread I've ever seen about a crappy pitcher.

Well, we look forward to a "Happy Festivus" thread tomorrow, and plenty of threads like "Favorite Sandwich," or "Favorite Stooge" in the coming weeks.

whitesox901
12-22-2008, 03:00 PM
Well, we look forward to a "Happy Festivus" thread tomorrow, and plenty of threads like "Favorite Sandwich," or "Favorite Stooge" in the coming weeks.

Whats wrong with Favorite Sandwich or Favorite Stooge Threads? :?:

SoxNation05
12-22-2008, 03:14 PM
Daniel Cabrera= Nut case, million dollar arm with a 2 cent head.
Leo Mazzone>>>>> Don Cooper
Thread closed.

BadBobbyJenks
12-22-2008, 03:40 PM
Absolultely not. Mazzone >>> Cooper. Now if Cooper gets lucky and the White Sox draft/sign guys similar to Maddux/Smoltz to add on to Buehrle (who maybe good and we love him, but he's no Tom Glavine) and they stick around for 4+ years, then we'll compare finish products and compare their careers. But as of right now, Mazzone has a huge advantage.


Buehrle vs Glavine at age 29 (http://www.baseball-reference.com/friv/scomp2.cgi?I=buehrma01:Mark+Buehrle&st=age&compage=29&age=29)