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View Full Version : Ozzie Says Sox are "Rebuilding"


Jpgr91
12-14-2008, 01:50 PM
In the last few paragraphs... Nothing everyone did not already know though...

http://www.suntimes.com/sports/deluca/1329738,CST-SPT-deluca14.article

whitesox901
12-14-2008, 02:06 PM
no big surprise

LoveYourSuit
12-14-2008, 02:07 PM
Despite the manager even saying it, people here will still be in denial :rolleyes:

NardiWasHere
12-14-2008, 02:07 PM
Eh, who cares...

soltrain21
12-14-2008, 02:09 PM
This is the most tame form of rebuilding you can do, then. While I think we might be "rebuilding" by definition, we aren't rebuilding to the point where we can't compete next year.

LoveYourSuit
12-14-2008, 02:13 PM
This is the most tame form of rebuilding you can do, then. While I think we might be "rebuilding" by definition, we aren't rebuilding to the point where we can't compete next year.


With the prospect of the #4 and #5 starter position..... things can get very ugly quick and early.

If we do land someone for at least 1 of those positions, things might be OK to compete in our weak division. I don't know about competing for the AL against Bos or NYY.

LoveYourSuit
12-14-2008, 02:14 PM
Eh, who cares...

Are you serious?

btrain929
12-14-2008, 02:15 PM
It doesn't even seem like he's using it in the right context, because he said he still wants to compete and win the division. So either he doesn't truly know what it means, or my definition of rebuilding is too grim.

Either way, you can't fully "say" what mode we're in since it's still only mid December and other moves might still follow.

I don't know. I guess in my opinion when you have players like Quentin, Alexei, Dye, Jenks, Danks, Buehrle, Thome, Floyd, Linebrink, at least 2, maybe 3 more of these players would have to be traded off for prospects for me to believe we are rebuilding. Just because we didn't sign CC or Tex, and because we shedded dead weight like Swisher and Vazquez doesn't = rebuilding in my eyes.

SoxSpeed22
12-14-2008, 02:15 PM
This is a very subtle form of rebuilding, more than anything. It's probably better to do it now than do it after the veterans fall off, and the Sox have a 90+ loss season. We got decent value for Vazquez and Swisher.

Marqhead
12-14-2008, 02:15 PM
Are you serious?

He's saying what everyone already knew. This isn't a big deal.

soltrain21
12-14-2008, 02:17 PM
This is a very subtle form of rebuilding, more than anything. It's probably better to do it now than do it after the veterans fall off, and the Sox have a 90+ loss season. We got decent value for Vazquez and Swisher.

That's how I feel. With how our roster was previously built we were going to have a hard drop off from the veterans to the young guys - now we are starting to slowly filter in the young guys without risking (that much) talent.

WHILEPITCH
12-14-2008, 02:19 PM
If we have to do it, do it now. We can still win this division (sadly) with a rebuild or retool year.

Anyway, we cant trade Thome, Buehrle or Konerko (most likely)..... so no matter what we do, we'll still have vets mixed in for next year.

Really it just comes down to Dye being traded...and Jenks eventually, I would think...but not now b/c all these other closers are available.

DumpJerry
12-14-2008, 02:24 PM
Teams rebuild every year. No team is every 100% identical from one year to the next. You have to constantly re-tool.

Tearing down and rebuilding, on the other hand, is another issue. This is not what the Sox are doing.

WHILEPITCH
12-14-2008, 02:25 PM
Hey I'll take the Sox over a lot of other situations league wide.

They'll get a FA when they're on the cusp. Right now, if we're honest with ourselves, we're more likely on the cusp of decreased performance from the vets we're stuck with.

We have to get past that before we go all out. Get a star FA whose golden years will line up with our young current core being more at its prime.




ALSO - how bad's "rebuilding" compared to last year, when we were counting on a whole bunch of unknown young commodities... CQ, Alexei, Danks, Floyd. Plus we had to withstand career low years from Swish/PK, injuries to Crede/Contreras and STILL won a division. If anything, I think the upcoming year compares more favorably to what we were facing in the first month of last year.

btrain929
12-14-2008, 02:25 PM
Teams rebuild every year. No team is every 100% identical from one year to the next. You have to constantly re-tool.

Tearing down and rebuilding, on the other hand, is another issue. This is not what the Sox are doing.

Exactly, that's how I feel.

whitem0nkey
12-14-2008, 02:27 PM
just because we are rebuilding does not mean were not trying to compete next year also. we not just going to be sox fans next year were going to be sox fans our whole lives. And with the free agent pool this year vs next year this seams like a great time to do this. in the big picture were doing a good thing, while still not rolling a last place team. this will be a team that should still be competative during a rebuilding proccess.

and we have been rebuilding just about every year, one position at a time. now were just accelerating the proccess more.

DumpJerry
12-14-2008, 02:28 PM
Now that I read the article, I question the credibility of it. De Luca says Swisher became the lead-off hitter last year after Owens "proved he couldn't cut it." Ummm.....Chris, Owens was injured. He could not play.

Why can't the local press get basic facts correct?

Lip Man 1
12-14-2008, 02:42 PM
Dump"

I don't know Chris but maybe by his definition "not cutting it," is always being injured?

And I appreciate Ozzie's honesty. Now the fans can decide what they want to do and how much money they choose to spend on the team in 2009.

Lip

TDog
12-14-2008, 03:00 PM
Teams rebuild every year. No team is every 100% identical from one year to the next. You have to constantly re-tool.

Tearing down and rebuilding, on the other hand, is another issue. This is not what the Sox are doing.

Of course. The White Sox rebuilt their team before the 2005 season. The Yankees are rebuilding as I write this.

People take comments by management far too seriously.

oeo
12-14-2008, 03:03 PM
Ozzie says 'rebuilding,' but even what he says afterwards does not define as 'rebuilding.' Not the correct word. Rebuilding is starting anew, from a clean slate (from the bottom up). What the Sox are doing is transitioning to a younger core. And we have an old team, so it was going to need to be done sooner or later. Or we could do what the Tigers are doing with their old team: signing mediocre vets.

DumpJerry
12-14-2008, 03:15 PM
Of course. The White Sox rebuilt their team before the 2005 season. The Yankees are rebuilding as I write this.

People take comments by management far too seriously.

Agreed. I try to sit back and wait for Opening Day. It just get real boring during the offseason, especially when the Bears are lighting up the world, to ignore the Good Guys....

Or we could do what the Tigers are doing with their old team: signing mediocre vets.
:o::D:
Good way to sum up the Tigers. Remember, it was not too long ago Dombrowski was hailed by everyone in MLB as the uber-genius of GMs. After the 2008 season ended a friend of mine dug up an email a Detroit friend of ours send last year after The Big Trade with the Marlins where he proclaimed they would win the World Series, etc....The email my friend dug up and threw back in his face included my response that Dontrelle was a non-factor since he was already struggling in the NL and the AL would eat him alive. I also mentioned that the Tigers' rotation was too old despite the presence of Verlander and Bonderman and the bullpen would kill them.

Now, my question to you is, why can't I pick Lottery numbers???

Jpgr91
12-14-2008, 03:16 PM
Of course. The White Sox rebuilt their team before the 2005 season. The Yankees are rebuilding as I write this.

People take comments by management far too seriously.

This is not the same as what the sox did after the 2004 season. Trading Lee gave the Sox 2 MLB ready players. So far none of the trades have brought in MLB ready talent. The sox also signed several key veteran free agents, something that the Sox have yet to do. The Yankees idea of "rebuilding" makes it imposible to compare to any other MLB team. As it stands now, the Sox are creating a ton of question marks while slashing payroll.

white sox bill
12-14-2008, 03:19 PM
Try retooling instead

whitesox901
12-14-2008, 03:20 PM
Try retooling instead
I like "Reloading"

turners56
12-14-2008, 03:28 PM
Eh, who cares...

You'll be caring when your whole summer will be as bored as ****.

turners56
12-14-2008, 03:30 PM
Exactly, that's how I feel.

We're not doing what the Marlins do, but we just won the division. We should be at least trying to get better. I don't feel like we're really doing that.

Frater Perdurabo
12-14-2008, 03:34 PM
Anyone who thinks "standing pat" with the exact same 2008 roster would result in better results in 2009 is certifiably insane. Sometimes you have to take a step back to move two steps forward. And IMHO the Sox have taken ONE step back, as we just don't know if the youngsters can fill the void left by Vazquez (and it remains to be seen if one of them also can replace Contreras).

OTOH, Cabrera and Swisher were over-hyped additions, and Uribe was overpaid. Each had a few great moments but Getz, Owens/BA and Fields can replicate what Cabrera, Swisher and Uribe gave the Sox at the plate.

So, call it rebuilding if you want, but the loss of Vazquez is the only "backward step" the Sox have taken.

jabrch
12-14-2008, 03:38 PM
a game of subtle semantics with Ozzie Guillen would be as fun as a game of horse with a drunk, blind quadrapalegic on acid.

I'll wait and see what we bring north and then draw a conclusion on if we can be competitive or not in this division.

People are welcome to take OG literally. *laugh*

HomeFish
12-14-2008, 03:41 PM
We can't really rebuild until we dumb Konerko and Thome, and that is not possible.

DumpJerry
12-14-2008, 03:47 PM
We can't really rebuild until we dumb Konerko and Thome, and that is not possible.
Isn't a lobotomy a bit extreme, even for you?

white sox bill
12-14-2008, 03:50 PM
:walnutsWe can't really rebuild until we dumb Konerko and Thome, and that is not possible.


"Hey I got my GED last year!!"

champagne030
12-14-2008, 03:51 PM
Despite the manager even saying it, people here will still be in denial :rolleyes:

That's I'll I'm actually looking for....Admit that we do need to rebuild the team for the future and since our division sucks we can do that and still compete for a divisional championship.

Just don't pass it off that we're one of the best teams in the AL and have as good a chance as everybody else. Assuming that the pitching for other teams in our division doesn't all have career years then we'll compete with them all year, but we're still a 2nd tier team in the overall scheme of things.

Jerry gets to rebuild the club, while making a huge profit and compete for a divisional title because our competitors suck. A lot like the Cubune plan a few years ago.

TDog
12-14-2008, 03:56 PM
This is not the same as what the sox did after the 2004 season. Trading Lee gave the Sox 2 MLB ready players. So far none of the trades have brought in MLB ready talent. The sox also signed several key veteran free agents, something that the Sox have yet to do. The Yankees idea of "rebuilding" makes it imposible to compare to any other MLB team. As it stands now, the Sox are creating a ton of question marks while slashing payroll.

A question mark is an upgrade over Swisher, of course.

The White Sox haven't been cutting payroll for the sake of cutting payroll. They have been trimming overpriced dead wood.

KyWhiSoxFan
12-14-2008, 04:31 PM
Dump"

I don't know Chris but maybe by his definition "not cutting it," is always being injured?

And I appreciate Ozzie's honesty. Now the fans can decide what they want to do and how much money they choose to spend on the team in 2009.

Lip

True Sox fans support the team, win or lose. The fair weather fans are another issue, but the marginal ones are not the core.

Craig Grebeck
12-14-2008, 04:53 PM
A question mark is an upgrade over Swisher, of course.

The White Sox haven't been cutting payroll for the sake of cutting payroll. They have been trimming overpriced dead wood.
I bet you $100 that Swisher's numbers trump those of Anderson, Owens, or Wise next season.

HomeFish
12-14-2008, 05:02 PM
True Sox fans support the team, win or lose. The fair weather fans are another issue, but the marginal ones are not the core.

There's a difference between not supporting your team and not wanting to watch the team you love get shellacked.

Maybe some people enjoy watching 12-1 losses to Kansas City, or watching the Twins run all over us and dribbling our pitchers to death. I don't.

Frater Perdurabo
12-14-2008, 05:06 PM
I bet you $100 that Swisher's numbers trump Anderson, Owens, or Wise next season.

Swisher will have the benefit of hitting in as many as 81 games in Yankee Stadium, with its cartoonishly short RF fence, and in a lineup with at least three future HOFers who still can hit: A-Rod, Jeter and Posada, plus Nady, Matsui and Giambi.

I'll bet Swisher's OBP goes down, though. Who would want to walk him with those other hitters in the lineup? His power numbers will increase but he'll also strike out more.

Paulwny
12-14-2008, 05:09 PM
Swisher will have the benefit of hitting in as many as 81 games in Yankee Stadium, with its cartoonishly short RF fence, and in a lineup with at least three future HOFers who still can hit: A-Rod, Jeter and Posada, plus Nady, Matsui and Giambi.

I'll bet Swisher's OBP goes down, though. Who would want to walk him with those other hitters in the lineup? His power numbers will increase but he'll also strike out more.



We rarely agree, but you are correct, short porch= power numbers.

Jimmy John
12-14-2008, 07:39 PM
I bet you $100 that Swisher's numbers trump those of Anderson, Owens, or Wise next season.

I wouldn't be surprised if Kenny takes a long hard look at Willy Taveras. He just became a free agent the other day.

Lip Man 1
12-14-2008, 07:49 PM
Scott Boras is his agent...no can do.

Lip

SBSoxFan
12-14-2008, 08:06 PM
Now that I read the article, I question the credibility of it. De Luca says Swisher became the lead-off hitter last year after Owens "proved he couldn't cut it." Ummm.....Chris, Owens was injured. He could not play.

Why can't the local press get basic facts correct?

Dump, I noticed that too. However, later in the article, he did equate being injured with not being able to cut it. Not sure I'd use that terminology. Also, regardless of how Swisher performs next year, I'm confident the Sox can replace his .219 batting average from 2008. Finally, Ozzie used the "R" word a couple times in his interview with MLB last week. Didn't anyone notice that?

btrain929
12-14-2008, 08:39 PM
Scott Boras is his agent...no can do.

Lip

He's a non-tendered player. It's not like Boras has much leverage here. He won't be asking for a 3yr/21MIL contract or something ridiculous. If KW likes Taveras, I think it can get done.

thomas35forever
12-14-2008, 08:46 PM
I don't think we're rebuilding-rebuilding. We're rebuilding in the sense that we're dumping a few veterans and bringing in new meat. We're not destroying the core we had last year. That's true rebuilding.

Craig Grebeck
12-14-2008, 08:48 PM
I don't think we're rebuilding-rebuilding. We're rebuilding in the sense that we're dumping a few veterans and bringing in new meat. We're not destroying the core we had last year. That's true rebuilding.
Honest question, how on earth do you have Jerry Owens and Brian Anderson in the same OF (in your sig)? Furthermore, Owens in CF?!

FedEx227
12-14-2008, 09:17 PM
I like it. We can realistically rebuild or rework our core into a younger group while still competing for a division title. I love it.

SoxGirl4Life
12-14-2008, 09:27 PM
I like it. We can realistically rebuild or rework our core into a younger group while still competing for a division title. I love it.

I'm with you. I find it ironic though, that the knock on the Sox last year was for being a softball team or a station to station team, yet when they try to change that up, there's negativity about that too. :shrug:

Dan Mega
12-14-2008, 10:03 PM
I don't think we're rebuilding-rebuilding. We're rebuilding in the sense that we're dumping a few veterans and bringing in new meat. We're not destroying the core we had last year. That's true rebuilding.

Exactly- when you're purging bad to mediocre players for younger players who make less, its not necessarily taking chances and 'rebuilding'. The only thing I'm truly worried about at this point is the back end of the rotation and whether or not BA will get an actual shot to start the entire season in CF.

Edit: With that being said, dumping PK to anyone for anything would be an example of addition by subtraction.

Craig Grebeck
12-14-2008, 10:07 PM
Edit: With that being said, dumping PK to anyone for anything would be an example of addition by subtraction.
So...who plays 1B?

Domeshot17
12-14-2008, 10:12 PM
I don't know, we will see how the season goes. Right now, we need the division winner to be like the NL West most years, 85-88 wins takes it home. If you need 91-92 wins+ to win the central, it probably won't be us next year

Tragg
12-14-2008, 10:16 PM
The only thing I'm truly worried about at this point is the back end of the rotation and whether or not BA will get an actual shot to start the entire season in CF.

That's like a Lions fan worrying that his team might not reach the playoffs this year.

I can't understand why with all of the moves, Williams has brought neither a leadoff hitter, nor a player who could conceivably compete for a leadoff job, on this team. Is he actually going to let Guillen start Jerry Owens?

russ99
12-14-2008, 11:01 PM
I like it. We can realistically rebuild or rework our core into a younger group while still competing for a division title. I love it.

You keep believing that. I'm not drinking that kool-aid.

With the roster as is, we're going to be nowhere near competing for a division title. We barely won last year with a veteran team..

Without a quality addition before single-game sales, I certainly won't be buying as many tickets as for a contending Sox team. But I'll still support the team and watch on TV, just like the last time Jerry went cheap on us.

DumpJerry
12-15-2008, 12:02 AM
All the naysayers about our chances in 2009 sound like the naysayers this time last year.

By the way, we won the AL Central in 2008.

WhiteSox5187
12-15-2008, 12:28 AM
That's like a Lions fan worrying that his team might not reach the playoffs this year.

I can't understand why with all of the moves, Williams has brought neither a leadoff hitter, nor a player who could conceivably compete for a leadoff job, on this team. Is he actually going to let Guillen start Jerry Owens?
While I've been fairly critical of Kenny inability to get a leadoff guy, the thing is he hasn't gotten a leadoff guy with a track record really. Getz, Lillebridge (I know I have his name wrong, sorry!), Owens, all of these guys might be able to lead off. The thing with their lack of a track record is you're taking a chance, they might wind up being the next Brian Roberts or they might wind up being Jerry Owens. But you won't find out by letting them ride out on the pine.

What I'm really far more worried about is the fact that as of right now it seems like Richard and Broadway are our primary plans for 4-5 in the rotation. But I was pretty worried about Danks and Floyd holding those spots last year, so I'm willing to give Kenny the benefit of the doubt here...but I wouldn't surprised if this burns us.

Domeshot17
12-15-2008, 12:51 AM
All the naysayers about our chances in 2009 sound like the naysayers this time last year.

By the way, we won the AL Central in 2008.

I don't disgaree that much here, but my fear is just what I said earlier. Last year, a huge reason we won the division is not we did much more than people expected (most pegged us about 85 wins), we won 3 extra games. However, The Indians and Tigers were both expected to win around 95-100 games, leaving us in the dust. The beauty of baseball is the games had to be played, and they both choked. We now enter the year with no team looking impressive. Detroit has a decent offense and a potentially strong front of the rotation but their bullpen is a big question mark. The Indians lost CC, but if Lee comes back he is just as good. The key for them will be will the offense balance out and be as good as it can be, how will they be defensively, and will guys like Hafner come back. The Twins, they will be there. Us, we have a lot of question marks. If guys like Getz, Lillibridge, Fields, Owens, 2 of Marquez/Poreda/Broadway/Richard if they all come through, then we can win 90-93 games. but the problem is, that is counting on a ton of rookies/young kids to not struggle, and none of them make you feel much better than 50/50. Getz you have to like the most in that group because he is balanced. Fields, if healthy, which do we get, the guy who bopped 23 homers in limited at bats or the guy who couldn't catch up to the fastball last year. The guy who showed huge defensive strides early last year or the stone handed slow reaction guy we hear about. Owens has done nothing to give anyone any faith in him. He is of the Joey Gathright mold, with the Juan Pierre mold about as good as he could ever be.

The AL central is basically just one big cluster**** of question marks. I guess the pill more of us swallow then not is, why, when it is this winnable, are we not going for it 1 more year. I like that we are looking at this as a marathon over several years, but at some point, why jog with the pack if you can sprint and take control.

Jimmy John
12-15-2008, 01:09 AM
He's a non-tendered player. It's not like Boras has much leverage here. He won't be asking for a 3yr/21MIL contract or something ridiculous. If KW likes Taveras, I think it can get done.

i think Taveras would be a perfect fit for a team in desperate need of a speedy CF who can lead off. I hope Kenny can get it done.

hawkjt
12-15-2008, 01:48 AM
I'm with you. I find it ironic though, that the knock on the Sox last year was for being a softball team or a station to station team, yet when they try to change that up, there's negativity about that too. :shrug:

I would like to hear about all the great leadoff centerfielders that Kenny has passed up so far this offseason?
Fans want us to be fast but only if we can get all-star quality speedy guys...otherwise..we are doomed.:scratch:

I just know these same fans were complaining the day after the 05 Series.

guillen4life13
12-15-2008, 02:41 AM
I don't disgaree that much here, but my fear is just what I said earlier. Last year, a huge reason we won the division is not we did much more than people expected (most pegged us about 85 wins), we won 3 extra games. However, The Indians and Tigers were both expected to win around 95-100 games, leaving us in the dust. The beauty of baseball is the games had to be played, and they both choked. We now enter the year with no team looking impressive. Detroit has a decent offense and a potentially strong front of the rotation but their bullpen is a big question mark. The Indians lost CC, but if Lee comes back he is just as good. The key for them will be will the offense balance out and be as good as it can be, how will they be defensively, and will guys like Hafner come back. The Twins, they will be there. Us, we have a lot of question marks. If guys like Getz, Lillibridge, Fields, Owens, 2 of Marquez/Poreda/Broadway/Richard if they all come through, then we can win 90-93 games. but the problem is, that is counting on a ton of rookies/young kids to not struggle, and none of them make you feel much better than 50/50. Getz you have to like the most in that group because he is balanced. Fields, if healthy, which do we get, the guy who bopped 23 homers in limited at bats or the guy who couldn't catch up to the fastball last year. The guy who showed huge defensive strides early last year or the stone handed slow reaction guy we hear about. Owens has done nothing to give anyone any faith in him. He is of the Joey Gathright mold, with the Juan Pierre mold about as good as he could ever be.

The AL central is basically just one big cluster**** of question marks. I guess the pill more of us swallow then not is, why, when it is this winnable, are we not going for it 1 more year. I like that we are looking at this as a marathon over several years, but at some point, why jog with the pack if you can sprint and take control.

Agree with everything you've said. But I have a theory that may answer your question about why the Sox aren't going for it this year:

Who are the available players that would give the Sox a postive net return via trade? Dye is the most valuable, realistic trading chip the Sox have, but with the market being the way it is, a team would be much more interested in signing Bobby Abreu to a contract that would pay less than Dye is going to make in '09, and would not cost any return pieces.

Jenks is kind of tradable but who fills the closer slot if he goes? Thornton? Poreda? Dotel? Linebrink? None of them inspire too much confidence in me. Thornton inspires the most, but it's not enough.

So then, on the free agent market, who is out there that is asking for a reasonable contract that would do a better job than what the Sox have in house? There's Taveras for CF/leadoff and that's all I can think of. Maybe in a few weeks some agents and players will realize that the current market isn't going to support their contract demands and chips will start to fall. The White Sox aren't the only team that's been standing pat on the free agent market.

I know there are conflicting numbers on Sox payroll status for 2009, but I think it's reasonable to expect that crowds will decline next year. Season ticket holders may not want to commit to so many games when the economy is so shaky and unpredictable.

russ99 - do you still really buy into that nonsense? JR has shown that increased attendance and revenue translates to an increased payroll. The Sox are reportedly bolstering their foreign scouting also (and this costs $). Last season, attendance declined from 2007. I know the dismal 2007 season had a lot to do with that, but it's not like the Sox are in the lower third or even middle of the pack with payroll. I think the Sox had the 5th highest payroll in the majors last season. That's higher than the Cubs, Angels, Dodgers, etc. The teams that spent more were NYY, BOS, NYM, and DET.

The Sox barely won last year because Swisher and Konerko sucked for almost the whole season while it took Thome and Cabrera a couple months to heat up also. Essentially it was the veteran stars of the team that took a **** and didn't support the stellar work the pitching staff put in for the first half. John Danks should have legitimately won at least 15 games last year (one start, 7IP 0ER, another 6IP 0ER, others with 6-7IP 0-2ER, but the Sox only score 0 or 1 run). That alone would have been the difference between barely winning and straight up winning.

BadBobbyJenks
12-15-2008, 02:53 AM
I'm with you. I find it ironic though, that the knock on the Sox last year was for being a softball team or a station to station team, yet when they try to change that up, there's negativity about that too. :shrug:

Well we want speed from another source other than Jerry Owens who wasn't good enough to start for this team last year or any year.

I am perfectly content with Getz at 2b, but Owens as plan A for CF and lead off going into spring training...ugh

I like it. We can realistically rebuild or rework our core into a younger group while still competing for a division title. I love it.

I am with you, but the question is can we? I am more worried about the back end up the rotation than anything else.


Edit: With that being said, dumping PK to anyone for anything would be an example of addition by subtraction.

Really how is dumping PK an addition by subtraction? Please tell me who plays there instead. Such a silly statement.

Dan Mega
12-15-2008, 09:04 AM
Really how is dumping PK an addition by subtraction? Please tell me who plays there instead. Such a silly statement.

You're right, I guess its silly of me to expect a player making $12 million a year to do better than a .240 average and a .783 OPS.

doublem23
12-15-2008, 09:25 AM
You'll be caring when your whole summer will be as bored as ****.

Sounds like what the doomsdayers said my summer in 2008 would be like.

doublem23
12-15-2008, 09:28 AM
Honest question, how on earth do you have Jerry Owens and Brian Anderson in the same OF (in your sig)? Furthermore, Anderson in CF?!

Honest question. Do you know what day it is?

jabrch
12-15-2008, 09:36 AM
Sounds like what the doomsdayers said my summer in 2008 would be like.

They told me my summer would be like that in 05 also. And 06. And 07.

doublem23
12-15-2008, 09:40 AM
They told me my summer would be like that in 05 also. And 06. And 07.

Eh, everyone was pretty jacked up for 2006 and the Sox (mostly) delivered. And then plenty of folks were pumped for 2007 before that season turned into a steaming pile of crap.

Craig Grebeck
12-15-2008, 09:47 AM
Honest question. Do you know what day it is?
Yes, that doesn't really matter. People post their opening day lineups quite frequently, and having Owens in CF with Anderson in RF would be an embarrassment.

russ99
12-15-2008, 09:58 AM
Agree with everything you've said. But I have a theory that may answer your question about why the Sox aren't going for it this year:

Who are the available players that would give the Sox a postive net return via trade? Dye is the most valuable, realistic trading chip the Sox have, but with the market being the way it is, a team would be much more interested in signing Bobby Abreu to a contract that would pay less than Dye is going to make in '09, and would not cost any return pieces.

Jenks is kind of tradable but who fills the closer slot if he goes? Thornton? Poreda? Dotel? Linebrink? None of them inspire too much confidence in me. Thornton inspires the most, but it's not enough.

So then, on the free agent market, who is out there that is asking for a reasonable contract that would do a better job than what the Sox have in house? There's Taveras for CF/leadoff and that's all I can think of. Maybe in a few weeks some agents and players will realize that the current market isn't going to support their contract demands and chips will start to fall. The White Sox aren't the only team that's been standing pat on the free agent market.

I know there are conflicting numbers on Sox payroll status for 2009, but I think it's reasonable to expect that crowds will decline next year. Season ticket holders may not want to commit to so many games when the economy is so shaky and unpredictable.

russ99 - do you still really buy into that nonsense? JR has shown that increased attendance and revenue translates to an increased payroll. The Sox are reportedly bolstering their foreign scouting also (and this costs $). Last season, attendance declined from 2007. I know the dismal 2007 season had a lot to do with that, but it's not like the Sox are in the lower third or even middle of the pack with payroll. I think the Sox had the 5th highest payroll in the majors last season. That's higher than the Cubs, Angels, Dodgers, etc. The teams that spent more were NYY, BOS, NYM, and DET.

The Sox barely won last year because Swisher and Konerko sucked for almost the whole season while it took Thome and Cabrera a couple months to heat up also. Essentially it was the veteran stars of the team that took a **** and didn't support the stellar work the pitching staff put in for the first half. John Danks should have legitimately won at least 15 games last year (one start, 7IP 0ER, another 6IP 0ER, others with 6-7IP 0-2ER, but the Sox only score 0 or 1 run). That alone would have been the difference between barely winning and straight up winning.

I do see what your saying, but I don't see why I should take a leap of faith and buy 12+ games worth of tickets if the club won't commit to fielding a competing team. The shaky economy doesn't enter into the decision at least for me.

And I don't mind cutting payroll as long as the players we're getting are help-the-team-now MLB quality. But what we're expected to do is take another leap of faith in the Sox scouting department, who's not especially had the best track record lately. Maybe we'll be a lot better in 2011-12 than it looks like now, but that doesn't make up for a potential rebuilding season in 2009 and likely again in 2010 when Dye and Thome (and hopefully Konerko) are off the books.

I really don't see any difference in the team today compared to the 2007 version (i.e. expecting too many low to mid level prospects to become MLB regulars all at one time) and I'm expecting similar results.

tm1119
12-15-2008, 10:07 AM
Teams rebuild every year. No team is every 100% identical from one year to the next. You have to constantly re-tool.

Tearing down and rebuilding, on the other hand, is another issue. This is not what the Sox are doing.

Im pretty sure the only reason we havent completely rebuilt is because we cant. No one wants Thome or AJ and PK is mostly gonna be too hard to trade. And Dye is obviously already being shopped pretty heavily.
So if Dye is traded that leaves only Ramirez and Quentin, besides the guys that cant be traded, left from the offense from last year. And with Javy traded too thats pretty much every player on our team with more than 5 years of experience that can be traded was traded. Buehrle and the bullpen guys are the only exception.

So yes, yes we are rebuilding.

jabrch
12-15-2008, 10:09 AM
Eh, everyone was pretty jacked up for 2006 and the Sox (mostly) delivered. And then plenty of folks were pumped for 2007 before that season turned into a steaming pile of crap.

While most were, you have to go back to those crying about losing BA, that Pods stunk, that we had Uribe, etc.

I know we were coming off a WS, but that didn't stop people from telling us how bad things could be.

WhiteSox5187
12-15-2008, 10:10 AM
Sounds like what the doomsdayers said my summer in 2008 would be like.
This isn't directed at you or at anyone on this board really, but I think there is a BIT of cause for concern as we have a lot of question marks that we are relying kids to come through in. That could work out great (in did in 2008!) or it might backfire horribly (it did in 2007). So, we'll just have to wait and see, plus I don't think Kenny is done making moves yet, so this team might have answered all of those question marks by Spring Training.

Marqhead
12-15-2008, 10:12 AM
This isn't directed at you or at anyone on this board really, but I think there is a BIT of cause for concern as we have a lot of question marks that we are relying kids to come through in. That could work out great (in did in 2008!) or it might backfire horribly (it did in 2007). So, we'll just have to wait and see, plus I don't think Kenny is done making moves yet, so this team might have answered all of those question marks by Spring Training.

I think the general point is, that while many of us are concerned about the direction of our 2009 White Sox, it's December 15th and therefore way to early to write this team off. I think there is more work to be done; whether or not it gets done is another question. However, I will save my assesment of this offseason for April 6th when the team takes the field.

guillen4life13
12-15-2008, 10:14 AM
I do see what your saying, but I don't see why I should take a leap of faith and buy 12+ games worth of tickets if the club won't commit to fielding a competing team. The shaky economy doesn't enter into the decision at least for me.

And I don't mind cutting payroll as long as the players we're getting are help-the-team-now MLB quality. But what we're expected to do is take another leap of faith in the Sox scouting department, who's not especially had the best track record lately. Maybe we'll be a lot better in 2011-12 than it looks like now, but that doesn't make up for a potential rebuilding season in 2009 and likely again in 2010 when Dye and Thome are off the books.

I really don't see any difference in the team today compared to the 2007 version (i.e. expecting too many low to mid level prospects to become MLB regulars all at one time) and I'm expecting similar results.

Cutting payroll for help-the-team-now MLB quality is very hard to do and often involves catching lightning in a bottle. Lee for Podsednik is case in point.

Let's talk about 2007, because I remember it quite differently. There were only three truly inexperienced guys on the team who were expected to contribute: Danks, Masset and Logan. Everyone else ended up getting slotted in because of injuries to regulars. Crede brought Fields. Pods brought Owens. Iguchi was traded when the season had become a lost cause so Richar stepped in.

2007 was a failure because Crede and Pods got injured (and when they were playing, they weren't all that good). The bullpen imploded also (Logan, MacDougal and Masset were the main culprits). It was expected (and fine) for Danks to struggle. Contreras having the year he had was not expected at all.

But going into 2007 expectations were much higher and the team didn't have any more unestablished players than any other team.

Main point: 2007 failed because of vets and established players getting injured or not producing. 2008 was hampered by certain vets not playing at their high standards as we've already gone over.

I'm not saying young is the best way to go, but I am saying that it's unreasonable to be singling out the young guys for the failure that was 2007. It really was a team effort.

WhiteSox5187
12-15-2008, 10:17 AM
I think the general point is, that while many of us are concerned about the direction of our 2009 White Sox, it's December 15th and therefore way to early to write this team off. I think there is more work to be done; whether or not it gets done is another question. However, I will save my assesment of this offseason for April 6th when the team takes the field.
I really think that you have to wait until later in the season to assess the off season. I was thinking it was a very bad off season indeed on April 6th of last year and that we needed to be very lucky to even hint at contending...turns out I was wrong.

KyWhiSoxFan
12-15-2008, 10:30 AM
There's a difference between not supporting your team and not wanting to watch the team you love get shellacked.

Maybe some people enjoy watching 12-1 losses to Kansas City, or watching the Twins run all over us and dribbling our pitchers to death. I don't.

First, it is a given that no fan, hard core or casual, wants to see their team lose, by a big margin or a small margin. You still support the team.

Second, your inference that the Sox have dropped to a level below KC due to recent trades is absurd.

Lip Man 1
12-15-2008, 11:00 AM
SoxGirl asks: "'I find it ironic though, that the knock on the Sox last year was for being a softball team or a station to station team, yet when they try to change that up, there's negativity about that too."

The "negativity" is there because outside of a few folks who actually know the minor leagues, very few fans have heard anything about these "players." Plus as has been pointed out, they aren't even considered top prospects.

All Fall many of us were hearing names from sources like Chone Figgins and Orlando Hudson....guys who would have brought speed, defense and the ability to move runners along to the top of the lineup.

It looks like, for right now, the fans instead get Jerry Owens and Chris Getz.

You'll forgive fans for asking, "who?" and "why?."

We'll see what happens the rest of this off season.

Lip

hawkjt
12-15-2008, 11:01 AM
Cutting payroll for help-the-team-now MLB quality is very hard to do and often involves catching lightning in a bottle. Lee for Podsednik is case in point.

Let's talk about 2007, because I remember it quite differently. There were only three truly inexperienced guys on the team who were expected to contribute: Danks, Masset and Logan. Everyone else ended up getting slotted in because of injuries to regulars. Crede brought Fields. Pods brought Owens. Iguchi was traded when the season had become a lost cause so Richar stepped in.

2007 was a failure because Crede and Pods got injured (and when they were playing, they weren't all that good). The bullpen imploded also (Logan, MacDougal and Masset were the main culprits). It was expected (and fine) for Danks to struggle. Contreras having the year he had was not expected at all.

But going into 2007 expectations were much higher and the team didn't have any more unestablished players than any other team.

Main point: 2007 failed because of vets and established players getting injured or not producing. 2008 was hampered by certain vets not playing at their high standards as we've already gone over.

I'm not saying young is the best way to go, but I am saying that it's unreasonable to be singling out the young guys for the failure that was 2007. It really was a team effort.

Thanks for the reality check. Memories blur over time but the problem with an aged lineup in injuries and not having depth at the farm level to overcome the injuries.

We are stuck with Thome and have to just pray he hangs together for another year..if so, Big Jim still does his job.
PK will bounce back if he stays healthy...confident of that.
I have learned not to get too excited or morose in December or even in March...whenever I have felt great,injuries have killed us...whenever I felt bad, like last spring and in 05, we come thru.

Jurr
12-15-2008, 11:13 AM
I'm with the first part of Lip's statement. Let's look to the beginning of 2008. We thought the Sox were quasi-rebuilding then, too.

We liked the bullpen. We liked the Swisher and Cabrera signings, though we still were wondering what the hell would come of the CF position.

The starting rotation was scary. Having Danks and Floyd at #4 and #5 was not a sure thing by any stretch of the imagination. Most people would agree that the Ramirez and Quentin signings weren't going to have the impact that they did.

That said, this season's going to depend on the veterans. If Konerko, Thome, and Dye are still here, they are going to need to produce.
They can offset the inexperience of the other members of this lineup by hitting north of .250. Good baseball teams are able to infuse youth into their lineups all the time, as long as the vets are keeping the team above water.

Who knows? At the end of the season, we may be saying that Marquez, RIchard, Viciedo, and Getz are the new stars of this team as the Sox build for a bright future.

doublem23
12-15-2008, 11:37 AM
This isn't directed at you or at anyone on this board really, but I think there is a BIT of cause for concern as we have a lot of question marks that we are relying kids to come through in. That could work out great (in did in 2008!) or it might backfire horribly (it did in 2007). So, we'll just have to wait and see, plus I don't think Kenny is done making moves yet, so this team might have answered all of those question marks by Spring Training.

I think the general point is, that while many of us are concerned about the direction of our 2009 White Sox, it's December 15th and therefore way to early to write this team off. I think there is more work to be done; whether or not it gets done is another question. However, I will save my assesment of this offseason for April 6th when the team takes the field.

What Marq said... The way a lot of folks around here are already talking, you'd think the Sox would be better off forfeiting the '09 season. I have some serious concerns about the state of the team right now, most notably the starting pitching, but Spring Training doesn't even start for what? 2 1/2 more months?

russ99
12-15-2008, 11:46 AM
I'm with the first part of Lip's statement. Let's look to the beginning of 2008. We thought the Sox were quasi-rebuilding then, too.

We liked the bullpen. We liked the Swisher and Cabrera signings, though we still were wondering what the hell would come of the CF position.

The starting rotation was scary. Having Danks and Floyd at #4 and #5 was not a sure thing by any stretch of the imagination. Most people would agree that the Ramirez and Quentin signings weren't going to have the impact that they did.

That said, this season's going to depend on the veterans. If Konerko, Thome, and Dye are still here, they are going to need to produce.
They can offset the inexperience of the other members of this lineup by hitting north of .250. Good baseball teams are able to infuse youth into their lineups all the time, as long as the vets are keeping the team above water.

Who knows? At the end of the season, we may be saying that Marquez, RIchard, Viciedo, and Getz are the new stars of this team as the Sox build for a bright future.

Good post. You're spot on.

The only difference I'm seeing, is that Kenny went out last winter and tried for Miggy Cabrera and Hunter, then signed big FA's in O. Cabrera and Linebrink.

I'm not seeing the same effort to improve the club for 2009 this year, and after the salary purge, it seems if KW's giving up and thinking we're good enough.

The offseason isn't over yet, so we'll have to see if things are any different in February...

jabrch
12-15-2008, 12:09 PM
I'm not seeing the same effort to improve the club for 2009 this year, and after the salary purge, it seems if KW's giving up and thinking we're good enough.


You must have a lot of contact with KW to know what effort he puts in, and what he thinks of this club.

russ99
12-15-2008, 12:21 PM
You must have a lot of contact with KW to know what effort he puts in, and what he thinks of this club.

The word "seems" doesn't imply contact. And I'm only calling it as I see it.

Why was Fields, Owens and Richar not considered good enough last year and for some reason Fields, Owens and Getz are this year??

Where are this year's Swisher and Cabrera acquisitions? And don't tell me Viciedo, he's only 19 and any thought he can be a major contributor immediately is wishful thinking.

btrain929
12-15-2008, 12:33 PM
Good post. You're spot on.

The only difference I'm seeing, is that Kenny went out last winter and tried for Miggy Cabrera and Hunter, then signed big FA's in O. Cabrera and Linebrink.

I'm not seeing the same effort to improve the club for 2009 this year, and after the salary purge, it seems if KW's giving up and thinking we're good enough.

The offseason isn't over yet, so we'll have to see if things are any different in February...

My wacko theory on it is: after '07, he knew he had to make some pretty big changes to the team, otherwise nobody would be showing up in '08. So he went after the big names, failed on some, succeeded on some others. If he didn't do that, I'm imagining the attendance would have been FAR worse than it was. NOW that we won a division title, he figures fans should be more willing to come out on their own because of that success, so pulling back a lil on payroll and signings won't be that bad because a majority of the fans will be coming out anyways.

Almost like: after '07, they NEEDED a reason to come back out and see the Sox, and KW gave it to them in a lot of different big names. After '08, the reason to return is because they are division champs, so less can be done, and the results will be near the same.

Either way, this offseason isn't as important to me from a financial standpoint as the one after 2009 will be. Combine this year's savings with the savings after '09 when Thome, Dotel, Macdougal, Contreras, and possibly Dye are off the books. We're going to need a new veteran core in here. The only ones that would be left would be Buehrle, AJ (in his contract year), and PK (in his contract year). Now I'm not saying go out and give 36 y/o players 4 year contracts, but we need to bring some new, proven faces in after the '09 season. I'm willing to give these kids a chance in '09 for the simple fact that THEN we'll know who can make it, what positions are filled, and who we can cut ties with.

btrain929
12-15-2008, 12:36 PM
Why was Fields, Owens and Richar not considered good enough last year and for some reason Fields, Owens and Getz are this year??

To the team, Fields and Owens were good enough last year. Fields was sent down to AAA because we couldn't unload Crede onto another team for a decent return, and Owens got hurt. If we get a decent package for Crede, and Owens doesn't get hurt, they are both in the starting lineup Opening Day. Richar would have been in the mix last year for 2B as well, but he had the visa problems, then the back problems. So they indeed were high on all 3 coming into spring training.

guillen4life13
12-15-2008, 12:45 PM
The word "seems" doesn't imply contact. And I'm only calling it as I see it.

Why was Fields, Owens and Richar not considered good enough last year and for some reason Fields, Owens and Getz are this year??

Where are this year's Swisher and Cabrera acquisitions? And don't tell me Viciedo, he's only 19 and any thought he can be a major contributor immediately is wishful thinking.

I guarantee you that there's probably been a lot of inquiring and talks that we don't know about because KW is more stern about keeping things from leaking to the media/fans.

I understand your sentiment and it's reasonable for you to feel the way you do. However, I do believe that Ozzie, Kenny and Jerry are all committed to building this team to win and they want to do it right. Overpaying for players when the economy is in shambles is not the best thing to do from a business standpoint because of what everyone has said already. I'd rather see the Sox slightly compromise 2009 in the interest of the five years after. Develop a solid core (as they are doing) and use the money freed up when aging vets like Thome, Dye, Konerko leave to buy into younger players entering their prime. Get some draft picks and the payroll relief and land a marquee player.

As it stands now, the Sox aren't in position to compete. But it's not even Christmas yet and the league as a whole has been pretty dormant with personnel transactions. The Sox lost Swisher (who had nowhere to play and was eating up payroll), Vazquez (overpaid but workhorse starter) and Cabrera (the great "leader) and got draft picks, a few decent prospects and a couple mediocre prospects. As it stands now, I consider it addition by subtraction. The only guy who would have played regularly had he stayed on the team is Vazquez.

Again, it's still December and the trade/FA market is still very unpredictable. Wait it out.

jabrch
12-15-2008, 12:50 PM
Why was Fields, Owens and Richar not considered good enough last year and for some reason Fields, Owens and Getz are this year??

1) Fields was injured most of last year.
2) I don't think Owens is really the plan
3) Richar clearly wasn't the plan last year
4) Getz is one of many options - and he surely isn't being counted on to carry the team.

Where are this year's Swisher and Cabrera acquisitions? And don't tell me Viciedo, he's only 19 and any thought he can be a major contributor immediately is wishful thinking.

1) Why would you want another Swisher acquisition? He was a bust.
2) As far as MI goes, aren't we better at this point this year with Alexei and a few options at 2B than we were last year with Uribe and ?
3) It's Dec 15th.

jabrch
12-15-2008, 12:51 PM
As it stands now, the Sox aren't in position to compete.

Are you sure? I haven't seen Detroit or Cleveland get any better. Same with Minny. I'm not sure why you would say we can't compete. I think this division is wide open.

oeo
12-15-2008, 12:58 PM
Are you sure? I haven't seen Detroit or Cleveland get any better. Same with Minny. I'm not sure why you would say we can't compete. I think this division is wide open.

I agree that the division is not competitive, but Cleveland has acquired Kerry Wood and Joe Smith for their pen. Yes, they've improved.

The only production we've lost is Orlando Cabrera and Javier Vazquez (who was basically an innings eater). Yeah, the names Josh Fields, Chris Getz/Brent Lillibridge, Jeff Marquez, and Anderson/Owens don't sound as good as Joe Crede, Orlando Cabrera, Javier Vazquez, and Nick Swisher did last year, but when you get down to it, those guys were not highly productive anyway. More experienced isn't always necessarily better.

Tragg
12-15-2008, 01:02 PM
To the team, Fields and Owens were good enough last year.
Indeed - to Ozzie, .320 obp, zero power but willing to slap at balls in the dirt, and speed, make for a major league leadoff hitter. Owens is a better player than Carlos Quentin.
Ozzie also thought he had a fine offensive team in 2007.

whitesox901
12-15-2008, 01:40 PM
The only production we've lost is Orlando Cabrera and Javier Vazquez (who was basically an innings eater). Yeah, the names Josh Fields, Chris Getz/Brent Lillibridge, Jeff Marquez, and Anderson/Owens don't sound as good as Joe Crede, Orlando Cabrera, Javier Vazquez, and Nick Swisher did last year, but when you get down to it, those guys were not highly productive anyway. More experienced isn't always necessarily better.

Bingo

Jpgr91
12-15-2008, 01:56 PM
Are you sure? I haven't seen Detroit or Cleveland get any better. Same with Minny. I'm not sure why you would say we can't compete. I think this division is wide open.

Detroit and Cleveland clearly underperformed last year. While both teams are not perfect, I would expect both teams will be able to put together a decent run in 09. Look at the turn around the 07 Sox were able to make in 08. Lets not count out the Tigers and Indians just yet.

palehozenychicty
12-15-2008, 02:08 PM
I agree that the division is not competitive, but Cleveland has acquired Kerry Wood and Joe Smith for their pen. Yes, they've improved.

The only production we've lost is Orlando Cabrera and Javier Vazquez (who was basically an innings eater). Yeah, the names Josh Fields, Chris Getz/Brent Lillibridge, Jeff Marquez, and Anderson/Owens don't sound as good as Joe Crede, Orlando Cabrera, Javier Vazquez, and Nick Swisher did last year, but when you get down to it, those guys were not highly productive anyway. More experienced isn't always necessarily better.


Sanity is in here. Outside of Cabrera, none of those guys were any good for a couple of years now. Sure, Vazquez was good in 2007. But when they needed him to be reliable, he couldn't do it. It's addition by subtraction.

jabrch
12-15-2008, 02:10 PM
Detroit and Cleveland clearly underperformed last year. While both teams are not perfect, I would expect both teams will be able to put together a decent run in 09. Look at the turn around the 07 Sox were able to make in 08. Lets not count out the Tigers and Indians just yet.


Nowhere did I count anyone out. That, in fact, is all I am asking. Don't count the Sox out either. We may not be any worse in 09 than in 08. And Cleveland/Detroit may or may not suddenly have better pitching staffs. None of this is a predetermined - not on December 15.

sunofgold
12-15-2008, 02:35 PM
They traded or lost to free agency: Santana, Hunter, Garza, Bartlett, Silva (200 inning guy like Javier Vazquez). Nobody thought that they would compete.

And they gave chances to younger, unproven players like Slowey, Blackburn, Span, Carlos Gomez.

What the WHITE SOX seem to be doing is similar. We are making a younger team that hopefully will be better than a 2008 team. Obviously though some of young players are going to have to step up and deliver.

voodoochile
12-15-2008, 02:42 PM
I don't disgaree that much here, but my fear is just what I said earlier. Last year, a huge reason we won the division is not we did much more than people expected (most pegged us about 85 wins), we won 3 extra games. However, The Indians and Tigers were both expected to win around 95-100 games, leaving us in the dust. The beauty of baseball is the games had to be played, and they both choked. We now enter the year with no team looking impressive. Detroit has a decent offense and a potentially strong front of the rotation but their bullpen is a big question mark. The Indians lost CC, but if Lee comes back he is just as good. The key for them will be will the offense balance out and be as good as it can be, how will they be defensively, and will guys like Hafner come back. The Twins, they will be there. Us, we have a lot of question marks. If guys like Getz, Lillibridge, Fields, Owens, 2 of Marquez/Poreda/Broadway/Richard if they all come through, then we can win 90-93 games. but the problem is, that is counting on a ton of rookies/young kids to not struggle, and none of them make you feel much better than 50/50. Getz you have to like the most in that group because he is balanced. Fields, if healthy, which do we get, the guy who bopped 23 homers in limited at bats or the guy who couldn't catch up to the fastball last year. The guy who showed huge defensive strides early last year or the stone handed slow reaction guy we hear about. Owens has done nothing to give anyone any faith in him. He is of the Joey Gathright mold, with the Juan Pierre mold about as good as he could ever be.

The AL central is basically just one big cluster**** of question marks. I guess the pill more of us swallow then not is, why, when it is this winnable, are we not going for it 1 more year. I like that we are looking at this as a marathon over several years, but at some point, why jog with the pack if you can sprint and take control.

With our MVP candidate missing the last month of the season and missing a starting pitcher for most of the last two months including going on a 4 man rotation from early September on (for the most part).

Those other teams didn't lose due to injuries they were deeply flawed when built (though that became evident in hindsight). The expectations that they would win that many games is laughable when you look at it from our current viewpoint. The expectations and predictions about their performance was flawed and looking back at it now, it's not hard to see why.

voodoochile
12-15-2008, 02:47 PM
You're right, I guess its silly of me to expect a player making $12 million a year to do better than a .240 average and a .783 OPS.

Like he did every other year before last year when he spent 4 months nursing an injured wrist and trying to play through it? Did I miss something about those two stints on the DL and then his fantastic finish to the year after finally getting healthy?

Honestly, PK has had a great run over the last 10 years with only two seasons where he failed to live up to expectations.

It's not an indictment of PK but of you that you refuse to acknowledge his accomplishments and the fact that last year was an anomoly.

jabrch
12-15-2008, 02:51 PM
They traded or lost to free agency: Santana, Hunter, Garza, Bartlett, Silva (200 inning guy like Javier Vazquez). Nobody thought that they would compete.

And they gave chances to younger, unproven players like Slowey, Blackburn, Span, Carlos Gomez.

What the WHITE SOX seem to be doing is similar. We are making a younger team that hopefully will be better than a 2008 team. Obviously though some of young players are going to have to step up and deliver.

Good analogy. And we lost nothing close to Santana, Hunter or Garza.

And, just for clarification, it is only December 15.

jabrch
12-15-2008, 02:52 PM
It's not an indictment of PK but of you that you refuse to acknowledge his accomplishments and the fact that last year was an anomoly.

Or at a bare minimum, that it COULD be an anomoly.

Jpgr91
12-15-2008, 02:53 PM
They traded or lost to free agency: Santana, Hunter, Garza, Bartlett, Silva (200 inning guy like Javier Vazquez). Nobody thought that they would compete.

And they gave chances to younger, unproven players like Slowey, Blackburn, Span, Carlos Gomez.

What the WHITE SOX seem to be doing is similar. We are making a younger team that hopefully will be better than a 2008 team. Obviously though some of young players are going to have to step up and deliver.

The Twins drafted Slowey, Blackburn, and Span. Gomez was a top prospect. When exactly have the Sox been able to draft and develop a pitcher? What top prospect did the Sox get back in any trade they have made this year? Its very hard to compare the Twins model to what the Sox do.

jabrch
12-15-2008, 03:02 PM
The Twins drafted Slowey, Blackburn, and Span. Gomez was a top prospect. When exactly have the Sox been able to draft and develop a pitcher? What top prospect did the Sox get back in any trade they have made this year? Its very hard to compare the Twins model to what the Sox do.

But it is easy to compare the sox to teams with 150mm+ payrolls? and it is easy to compare them to teams like the Yankees - as you do here...
http://www.whitesoxinteractive.com/vbulletin/showthread.php?t=108289


The Sox lost less talent than the Twins did last offseason so far. Nobody else got particularly stronger.

Is it POSSIBLE we are 15 games back in July and never sniff a shot at contending? I guess - sure it is. But it is also possible that we win the division.

In other words, we are no worse off today than we were at the same point in time last year.

voodoochile
12-15-2008, 03:09 PM
Or at a bare minimum, that it COULD be an anomoly.

No, it actually is an anomoly. The fact that he played his least number of games since becoming a full time starter back in 1999 should prove that. Now if he suddenly becomes injury prone or this wrist/thumb thing becomes a recurrent condition that forces him to two trips to the DL/year and kills his numbers then people can say he's a problem, but at the moment, he deserves the benefit of the doubt and one would think positive expectations about his future production, but yeah, I know... he's turning 33 and no player ever produces after that age. I mean it's physically impossible, bring out the walker/wheelchair and get the man a monkey to do his dishes he's toast...:rolleyes:

BadBobbyJenks
12-15-2008, 03:14 PM
You're right, I guess its silly of me to expect a player making $12 million a year to do better than a .240 average and a .783 OPS.

Voodoo already beat me too it, but yes lets ignore the previous four seasons and decide Paulie is done based on an injury filled 08 even though he went .270 .910 in the second half. Good idea, Betemit can fill his shoes!

Jpgr91
12-15-2008, 03:15 PM
This is not the same as what the sox did after the 2004 season. Trading Lee gave the Sox 2 MLB ready players. So far none of the trades have brought in MLB ready talent. The sox also signed several key veteran free agents, something that the Sox have yet to do. The Yankees idea of "rebuilding" makes it imposible to compare to any other MLB team. As it stands now, the Sox are creating a ton of question marks while slashing payroll.

But it is easy to compare the sox to teams with 150mm+ payrolls? and it is easy to compare them to teams like the Yankees - as you do here...
http://www.whitesoxinteractive.com/vbulletin/showthread.php?t=108289


The Sox lost less talent than the Twins did last offseason so far. Nobody else got particularly stronger.

Is it POSSIBLE we are 15 games back in July and never sniff a shot at contending? I guess - sure it is. But it is also possible that we win the division.

In other words, we are no worse off today than we were at the same point in time last year.

What I said, as quoted above, is that it is impossible to compare the Yankees idea of rebuilding to any other team.

Yes, the Sox lost less talent than the Twins did. The Twins however have a very strong minor league system, where the Sox do not. The Twins have proved that they can consistently draft and develop Major League talent. The Sox need to depend on making trades for ML ready talent to build the team at the Major League level.

It is only December, and lets hope that KW has some more moves planned.

RCWHITESOX
12-15-2008, 04:09 PM
Teams rebuild every year. No team is every 100% identical from one year to the next. You have to constantly re-tool.

Tearing down and rebuilding, on the other hand, is another issue. This is not what the Sox are doing.

Unfortunately it's someting the Sox have been doing for years. The Yankees, Red Sox, Angels, don't have rebuild in there vocabulary; they just for the most part put a product on the field that competes year end and year out. We have been to the World Series only twice since 1959; so I for one am tired of the rebuilding process.

WhiteSox5187
12-15-2008, 04:23 PM
Like he did every other year before last year when he spent 4 months nursing an injured wrist and trying to play through it? Did I miss something about those two stints on the DL and then his fantastic finish to the year after finally getting healthy?

Honestly, PK has had a great run over the last 10 years with only two seasons where he failed to live up to expectations.

It's not an indictment of PK but of you that you refuse to acknowledge his accomplishments and the fact that last year was an anomoly.
I think Paulie has a very good track record and the fact that he exploded in September is a good sign as I think his wrist and later thumb injuries plagued him the whole year...I still can't explain the slump in '07. But the fact remains he has had two down years in a row now, and there is a good possibility that he might just be on the downside of his career. But I hope I'm wrong about that!

oeo
12-15-2008, 05:05 PM
Voodoo already beat me too it, but yes lets ignore the previous four seasons and decide Paulie is done based on an injury filled 08 even though he went .270 .910 in the second half. Good idea, Betemit can fill his shoes!

What's funny is, people had similar feelings about Dye just a year ago. He had an injury plagued first half in 2007, and was absolutely terrible. He followed it up with a monster second half, but that was ignored. Well, he continued it in 2008.

Konerko isn't washed up. He had a thumb and rib injury which he coped with for the first half. He's already said he wants to come into the year in better shape.

guillen4life13
12-15-2008, 08:20 PM
In response to my saying that the team, right now, isn't ready to compete for the division:

Cleveland should bounce back and get into the race.

Minnesota can be expected to do what they do best: stay in the race while everybody wonders how they do it.

I don't see Detroit doing much considering their pitching is still suspect.

Right now I have trouble relying on two unproven SP--none of whom is a true top prospect. One guy like this is alright. Two is pushing it. I don't want to see 2003 all over again. I think that by now, KW would have learned from that mistake and I think he will go after a SP when the free agent market finally defines itself.

skobabe8
12-15-2008, 08:36 PM
Unfortunately it's someting the Sox have been doing for years. The Yankees, Red Sox, Angels, don't have rebuild in there vocabulary; they just for the most part put a product on the field that competes year end and year out. We have been to the World Series only twice since 1959; so I for one am tired of the rebuilding process.

If this is what some people consider rebuilding, I don't mind rebuilding.

Dan Mega
12-15-2008, 08:40 PM
Voodoo already beat me too it, but yes lets ignore the previous four seasons and decide Paulie is done based on an injury filled 08 even though he went .270 .910 in the second half. Good idea, Betemit can fill his shoes!

As long as we're cherry picking here:

1- How was his 2007 average?

2- How old is he, and historically speaking, how to players over the age of 30 showing 2 straight years of decline usually do?

I just think they could do better, that's all.

Craig Grebeck
12-15-2008, 08:46 PM
As long as we're cherry picking here:

1- How was his 2007 average?

2- How old is he, and historically speaking, how to players over the age of 30 showing 2 straight years of decline usually do?

I just think they could do better, that's all.
The market for first baseman is terrible, and there's no one in house who can play it at his level.

TDog
12-15-2008, 09:02 PM
... The Yankees, Red Sox, Angels, don't have rebuild in there vocabulary; they just for the most part put a product on the field that competes year end and year out. We have been to the World Series only twice since 1959; so I for one am tired of the rebuilding process.

The Yankees have been rebuilding this offseason. Between the Yankees and Red Sox, there was only one World Series title since 1918 coming into this century. If they don't have rebuilding in their vocabularies, it is only because their public relations departments have purged the word from their vocabularies.

Craig Grebeck
12-15-2008, 09:07 PM
The Yankees have been rebuilding this offseason. Between the Yankees and Red Sox, there was only one World Series title since 1918 coming into this century. If they don't have rebuilding in their vocabularies, it is only because their public relations departments have purged the word from their vocabularies.
Come again?

voodoochile
12-15-2008, 09:25 PM
As long as we're cherry picking here:

1- How was his 2007 average?

2- How old is he, and historically speaking, how to players over the age of 30 showing 2 straight years of decline usually do?

I just think they could do better, that's all.

Cherry picking? You just want to talk about his average from 2007? The year he posted a .841 OPS with almost no protection for the entire first half of the year when Thome and Dye were struggling with injuries?

Over the age of 30? Does the cutoff for inevitable decline get lower and lower with every passing year or is it just me? 30? :rolleyes:

jabrch
12-15-2008, 09:27 PM
Unfortunately it's someting the Sox have been doing for years. The Yankees, Red Sox, Angels, don't have rebuild in there vocabulary; they just for the most part put a product on the field that competes year end and year out. We have been to the World Series only twice since 1959; so I for one am tired of the rebuilding process.

If you are that unhappy, I don't get what keeps you here. You know where the window is.

WHILEPITCH
12-15-2008, 09:45 PM
Unfortunately it's someting the Sox have been doing for years. The Yankees, Red Sox, Angels, don't have rebuild in there vocabulary; they just for the most part put a product on the field that competes year end and year out. We have been to the World Series only twice since 1959; so I for one am tired of the rebuilding process.I personally dont think I could take rooting for a team that doesnt ever have rebuilding time.

There's something unexpectedly nice about a season where you're ABOUT to be good/maybe great. That feeling only comes after a little down time. If I was constantly expecting to be no worse than good, I'd find little to get excited about - i'd just be impatient constantly.


For example, I really had a lot of fun during the 2004-05 Bulls season. Last year's Sox season, with the acquisition of a young core, was also fun.

areilly
12-15-2008, 09:50 PM
The Yankees have been rebuilding this offseason. Between the Yankees and Red Sox, there was only one World Series title since 1918 coming into this century. If they don't have rebuilding in their vocabularies, it is only because their public relations departments have purged the word from their vocabularies.

Really? Twenty-five by my count (26 if you include 2000), but you might have a different scorekeeping method than I.

:scratch:

TDog
12-15-2008, 09:56 PM
Come again?

Between the Angels and Red Sox. I meant to type Angels after mentioning the Yankees. The Yankees haven't won a World Series in the 21st Century and the Angels and Red Sox had won only one World Series between them in the previous eight decades.

jabrch
12-15-2008, 10:03 PM
Cleveland should bounce back and get into the race.

They traded away Sabathia. Cliff Lee has a SICK career year after a season with a 6+ ERA. So Carmona comes back...Lee, Westbrook, Carmona, Sowers and Lewis? I'm not worried about them. Sure - they could be good - so can any team (sans KC). But Cleveland and Detroit still have fundamental rotation problems (so do we) that prohibit them from being overwhelming favorites.

champagne030
12-15-2008, 10:13 PM
I personally dont think I could take rooting for a team that doesnt ever have rebuilding time.

There's something unexpectedly nice about a season where you're ABOUT to be good/maybe great. That feeling only comes after a little down time. If I was constantly expecting to be no worse than good, I'd find little to get excited about - i'd just be impatient constantly.


I don't disagree with anything you just wrote.

The difference is that Kenny tells us his primary goal is to win the World Series - this year. Then slashes payroll, raises ticket prices, cries poor and goes with a "The Kids can Play" program (at least through 12/15). Ease off the profits and try being a little more upfront (or at least don't insult my intelligence and spout bull****) and maybe fans will be a little more forgiving. :shrug:

NardiWasHere
12-15-2008, 11:54 PM
Did the white flag trade really scar the fanbase this much? I mean this thread is ridiculous.


It is what it is.

The Sox just got rid of guys who had no place on the team and/or were bad. At the same time, they improved the organization's depth.

I guess you can call it rebuilding... But like I said earlier, Who cares?

The team as it stood last year wasn't that good. Does anyone really think last year's Sox team was a World Series contender in October? Yeah, they made the playoffs, but I'd argue they were the weakest of the bunch.

At least now the roster is a little more flexible, allowing for changes to actually fix some problems.

And at the very least, let's see what they get for Dye if he gets shipped out next.

kittle42
12-15-2008, 11:57 PM
The Yankees, Red Sox, Angels, don't have rebuild in there vocabulary

Funny sentence.

guillensdisciple
12-16-2008, 12:02 AM
Did the white flag trade really scar the fanbase this much? I mean this thread is ridiculous.


It is what it is.

The Sox just got rid of guys who had no place on the team and/or were bad. At the same time, they improved the organization's depth.

I guess you can call it rebuilding... But like I said earlier, Who cares?

The team as it stood last year wasn't that good. Does anyone really think last year's Sox team was a World Series contender in October? Yeah, they made the playoffs, but I'd argue they were the weakest of the bunch.

At least now the roster is a little more flexible, allowing for changes to actually fix some problems.

And at the very least, let's see what they get for Dye if he gets shipped out next.


THANK YOU!!!!

I don't understand why people have so much trouble understanding these moves. No matter what you did, if you kept the players you had, and added another free agent (who would have to be a low caliber starter that the Sox really don't need), you would probably be out of the playoffs. We weren't that good, and got away with slow baseball. On top of that, these hitters didn't have an inclination for the big game, and caved in when the White Sox needed them most.

The bottom line is that the White Sox would have probably placed second or third had they kept this unit around. Swisher wasn't going to be better and we know damn well what Javy was going to deliver. Konerko, Dye, and Thome are only getting older and slower, our team was going to become the most baseclogging/ frustrating team in all baseball.

All we did now, was assure a younger core, which we needed, otherwise we would risk a TRUE rebuilding process in three years. Sure this team might not be a championship/ playoff caliber team, but I would much rather see the Sox take a step in the right direction with youth then in the wrong direction with older and struggling talent.

I just don't understand what the hold-up here is. What he is doing is correct, and has to be done.

BadBobbyJenks
12-16-2008, 12:40 AM
As long as we're cherry picking here:

1- How was his 2007 average?

2- How old is he, and historically speaking, how to players over the age of 30 showing 2 straight years of decline usually do?

I just think they could do better, that's all.

What did I cherry pick? He had a miserable first half of 08 and came back with .270 .910 in the 2nd half. I dont think you can confidently say he is declining considering the injuries he had last year.

You keep saying they can do better, well tell me how they can.

RCWHITESOX
12-16-2008, 01:15 PM
If you are that unhappy, I don't get what keeps you here. You know where the window is.

Gee I thought this is were as Sox fans we could give our opinions. I am a Sox fan and allways will ; but that doesn't mean I have to agree on everything that they have done. Facts are facts we have only been to the World series 2 times in the last 50 years and isn't getting there what it is all about. If you had only reached your goals twice in the last 50 freaking years would you feel that you had done your job? That's all I'm trying to say.

oeo
12-16-2008, 01:23 PM
Gee I thought this is were as Sox fans we could give our opinions. I am a Sox fan and allways will ; but that doesn't mean I have to agree on everything that they have done. Facts are facts we have only been to the World series 2 times in the last 50 years and isn't getting there what it is all about. If you had only reached your goals twice in the last 50 freaking years would you feel that you had done your job? That's all I'm trying to say.

Do you seriously think that isn't the ultimate goal of the organization? Or are they just trying to "steal" your money? You act like reaching the World Series is as easy as saying you want to do it.

Come on, we have an old, slow, homer happy team. Changes need to be made to get to that ultimate goal. And no, not adding more high-priced veterans who will soon be on the decline, as well.

jabrch
12-16-2008, 01:27 PM
Gee I thought this is were as Sox fans we could give our opinions.

Who said you couldn't?

I am a Sox fan and allways will ; but that doesn't mean I have to agree on everything that they have done.

Nobody said you had to. But if you are so miserable, why continue? That's what I never understand about the glass is 99% empty crowd.

Facts are facts we have only been to the World series 2 times in the last 50 years

Yes

and isn't getting there what it is all about.

No

If you had only reached your goals twice in the last 50 freaking years would you feel that you had done your job?

Depends on what my goals were, and on the likelihood of achieving them. While every team tries to win, and will state that is their goal. If my goal at work was to start a new hamburger business and become the #1 hamburger seller in the world, and was able to do that 2 times in the next 50 years, I'd say I achieved any sort of realistic expectations. I'd also say that what was done 40 years ago has no bearing on today, since KW hasn't had this job that long. I'd also say that despite the bravado that comes with a job like that, and the need to say things for public consumption, the reality...the cold hard facts...are that winning every year is not even remotely possible for NYY/BOS/LA/CHC, who have a larger amount of revenues than us, regardless of what % of our revenues/profits we spend.

If you will only be happy if the Sox win a WS, and any other solution leaves you unhappy, then, and I agree 100% with your first statement, that it is your choice, you will be unhappy a great deal. Now following that conclusion, if you are so unhappy and know you will continue to be so unhappy since winning once every X years is all you can realistically expect, then I don't get why you'd continue to beat your head against a wall of misery. There's so much other misery in the world - I don't get why you'd let sports be more. (unless of course all of this is hyperbole and you really don't expect to win every year, and any year you don't win the WS isn't a failure, and it really isn't binary, and you measure a baseball season in some less silly manner....but I don't know - as you said, you have the right to have whatever opinion you want...)

jabrch
12-16-2008, 01:32 PM
Do you seriously think that isn't the ultimate goal of the organization?

OEO - I think there are some folks here who genuinely DO believe this. Those people take statements out of context and put more meaning to them than is intended. Sure - it is their GOAL every year to win. But I highly doubt any baseball team measures it in such a binary fashion.

There are lots of ways to measure a successful season. And it varies franchise by franchise. And it varies based on reasonable expectations.

If anyone here considers 2008 a failure for the Sox (and I am sure some do - and that is their choice) then I pity them. I pity someone who is so passionately invested in something that is so fun, and has a binary measurement of success when the positive outcome is so unlikely. Are you guys who play the lottery and then beat your spouse if your Powerball #s don't get picked?

russ99
12-16-2008, 03:40 PM
THANK YOU!!!!

I don't understand why people have so much trouble understanding these moves. No matter what you did, if you kept the players you had, and added another free agent (who would have to be a low caliber starter that the Sox really don't need), you would probably be out of the playoffs. We weren't that good, and got away with slow baseball. On top of that, these hitters didn't have an inclination for the big game, and caved in when the White Sox needed them most.

The bottom line is that the White Sox would have probably placed second or third had they kept this unit around. Swisher wasn't going to be better and we know damn well what Javy was going to deliver. Konerko, Dye, and Thome are only getting older and slower, our team was going to become the most baseclogging/ frustrating team in all baseball.

All we did now, was assure a younger core, which we needed, otherwise we would risk a TRUE rebuilding process in three years. Sure this team might not be a championship/ playoff caliber team, but I would much rather see the Sox take a step in the right direction with youth then in the wrong direction with older and struggling talent.

I just don't understand what the hold-up here is. What he is doing is correct, and has to be done.

That may be true, but the Sox should come out and say it instead of the doublespeak of rebuilding and contending in 2009. Maybe that's part of the reason us who were here for the Veeck and Reinsdorf ownerships are a bit distrusting of the current direction.

Also, I don't really see how much of the young core for 2010-2015 is already in place in a MLB starting spot. Quentin, Ramirez, Danks and Floyd (and maybe Jenks) is pretty much it, and all are due big raises in the next 2-3 years.

Everyone else is old and slow (or getting there), solid vets with 3-5 years left like Burls, Linebrink or A.J., unproven borderline prospects/1-2 year vets, or Class A-AA prospects who may or may not develop into blue chip players.

voodoochile
12-16-2008, 04:40 PM
That may be true, but the Sox should come out and say it instead of the doublespeak of rebuilding and contending in 2009. Maybe that's part of the reason us who were here for the Veeck and Reinsdorf ownerships are a bit distrusting of the current direction.

Also, I don't really see how much of the young core for 2010-2015 is already in place in a MLB starting spot. Quentin, Ramirez, Danks and Floyd (and maybe Jenks) is pretty much it, and all are due big raises in the next 2-3 years.

Everyone else is old and slow (or getting there), solid vets with 3-5 years left like Burls, Linebrink or A.J., unproven borderline prospects/1-2 year vets, or Class A-AA prospects who may or may not develop into blue chip players.

How many teams actually do that in professional sports?

I mean how many actually come out and say, "we suck, no chance, time to unload and start from scratch"? With the exception of some really bad football teams who were hiring an entirely new management team to go with the "we suck, time to back up the truck and start over" philosphy, I can't think of any. Why should the Sox be different? Just because it makes it easier for you to justify spending less money? It's the entertainment business. When's the last time Tom Cruise came out and said, "Boy that last movie I filmed was a real turd. I mean wooooey, it was a serious stinker," 4 months before it hit the theaters?

Your sense of moral indignation doesn't hold water. It's just not done. I mean no where under almost any circumstances does a company bidding for your entertainment dollars or really any of your money present less than a perfect face.

Do jean companies come out and say, "cotten last year was some of the worst fiber I've seen in 20 years. These jeans are sure to bust the crotch within 6 months of purchase."

Do restaurants say, "our food is just okay, not as good as the guy down the street, but we'll have a better menu next year if you support us now"?

Just tell me the truth... why should they? What do they owe you except an honest effort? If this is the best effort the Sox can put forth this year for whatever reason (economy, previous guaranteed raises, Contreras, less tickets sold last year, etc.) then that's what they should say. "we're actively trying to get better and we've done the things we wanted to do so far. Now we are concentrating on making the big league club better and will look at all ways to do so." That's what they are saying. That's the truth as much as your "stand no chance because we're rebuilding" mantra is.

Guess what, despite the commercials, fast food is bad for you, many fast paced action flicks are going to be formulaic and/or just suck, people who change their brand of paper towels are not necessarily happier than you and sometimes sports teams have better/worse than expected seasons for whatever reason and often they present catchy cute sayings implying they've got everything it takes to win it all and in truth they are pretty sure they'll finish 3rd. Oh and there's no Easter Bunny either... Just thought I'd throw that out there in case you were confused about other things that seem too good to be true... :D:

Lip Man 1
12-16-2008, 04:45 PM
Jab:

If people take things that are said by the organization "out of context" then it stands to reason that the smart folks in the organization wouldn't say them in the first place.

I personally listen closely when ANYONE in the organization talks....it's the only way I can usually get any information at all. (That's not quiet true of course, I do have my sources in the organization but in general terms the only way the average fan can get information is when folks like Ozzie, Kenny, Scott say something.)

If they think their words are going to be misunderstood or misinterpreted then shut up and don't say anything (as others have suggested).

To me that doesn't sound that hard to do.

Lip

jabrch
12-16-2008, 04:48 PM
That may be true, but the Sox should come out and say it instead of the doublespeak of rebuilding and contending in 2009.

There is nobody who is so much better looking than this club in the AL Central as we sit here on 12/15. Right now, it looks like 4 pretty even teams - all of whom could win 90ish games and then the Royals.

As far as rebuilding, I doubt you hear that from Williams. And if you are playing semantics with Ozzie Guillen's English, then I pity you. Management will (as they always do) believe they have a shot at winning this division. Sometimes the opposite it true, as in 2007. Other times, however, despite the negativity, they will contend, and actually win a division title - or at least make the playoffs....and then - who knows...

jabrch
12-16-2008, 04:59 PM
Jab:

If people take things that are said by the organization "out of context" then it stands to reason that the smart folks in the organization wouldn't say them in the first place.



So true... So what smart people have said we can't compete in 2009?

I personally listen closely when ANYONE in the organization talks....

We know you do - you do a great job at it. I appreciate it - becuase I can ignore most of it - and read your repeats. You are a trustworthy and credible source on what they say.

but in general terms the only way the average fan can get information is when folks like Ozzie, Kenny, Scott say something.)

And that information requires a very strong filter. Guillen has one spin - kinda like the Tasmanian Devil. KW has another - he's very measured. Scott has his own. So do others.

If they think their words are going to be misunderstood or misinterpreted then shut up and don't say anything (as others have suggested).

Well - first - that's not going to happen in the case of OG. Second, I don't really care. Because no matter what they say, it is all spin. Guillen using the word rebuilding means something to him - probably not the same as it means to KW. And damn for sure not what you interpret it as. Third, when all the managers each have a press conference at the GMs meetings, and OG is up there, I don't want him to "shut up" because I enjoy "Ozzie being Ozzie". It entertains me. But if you take him literally, (and that is your right) don't expect to draw the "smart" conclusion all the time.

To me that doesn't sound that hard to do.

I assume shutting up is easy. Very few people actually do it. I don't. You don't. Ozzie doesn't and KW doesn't. If everyone just was to "shut up", imagine how boring it would be?


Use your own eyes and ears - and you have many. If rebuilding means what it means in the sports context, which is giving up completely on one or more years to build for the future, has the Sox team done that this year by giving up Swish, backfilling that salary with Viciedo, and moving Javy for prospects? I don't see it. As far as total spend goes, let's see where we are in ST, and let's see if we have any idea what revenue may look like then before drawing the conclusion that this is a rebuilding year.

To me, a "rebuilding year' is often the excuse a team uses after a year sucks". The Indians probably called last year rebuilding. They stocked up with a few nice prospects after moving CC. They resigned some vets. And some guys are coming back. But I highly doubt they went into 08 calling it that. Same for the Mariners last year. They went into it on a high after the Bedard deal. I bet they are calling it rebuilding.

It's all about the filter and context Lip. If you take these guys most literally, Ozzie in particular, (and again - that's your right) I would propose you are missing a lot of the nuance in what they are saying.

Lip Man 1
12-16-2008, 05:07 PM
Jab:

And who is to say your view of the nuance is accurate or correct? It's possible your view of the minute differences and meanings is flat out wrong, no?

I can only go by what I'm told and what I hear. If there is something between the lines, then to me the easiest thing to do is simply to come out and say what you mean in the first place. It saves a step and helps reduce confusion.

Kind of like Occum's Razor right? The simplest answer is usually the correct one.

And your point about who has said 'we can't compete in 2009?' Certainly no one in the Sox organization would say that in the first place even if it were correct. The resulting fallout would be significant. It would be suicidal to say something like that. I understand why, in this specific context, the Sox can't say that even if they wanted to.

Now does that mean it isn't true? No, it very well can be...actions speak louder then words sometimes.

It's still December, we'll see what the makeup of the team looks like in February. You yourself have said you still have real concerns and I agree with you. There is reason to be concerned, very concerned.

Lip

2906
12-16-2008, 05:15 PM
There is reason to be concerned, very concerned.


What team, and what team's fan base, isn't concerned right now?

jabrch
12-16-2008, 05:18 PM
Jab:

And who is to say your view of the nuance is accurate or correct? It's possible your view of the minute differences and meanings is flat out wrong, no?



That's exactly my point. There is nuance to it. So you can't just take it literally, especially with Guillen, any more than I can interpret it one way.


I can only go by what I'm told and what I hear. If there is something between the lines, then to me the easiest thing to do is simply to come out and say what you mean in the first place. It saves a step and helps reduce confusion.

First, I assume you are smarter than this. So I am going to run with it that you are posturing here. I highly doubt you have to take everything that literally, again, specifically with Ozzie Guillen. If you do - then so be it.


And your point about who has said 'we can't compete in 2009?' Certainly no one in the Sox organization would say that in the first place even if it were correct. The resulting fallout would be significant. It would be suicidal to say something like that. I understand why, in this specific context, the Sox can't say that even if they wanted to.

And...it isn't necesarily true - in fact, a reasonable arguement can be made that it is false.


It's still December, we'll see what the makeup of the team looks like in February. You yourself have said you still have real concerns and I agree with you. There is reason to be concerned, very concerned.

But my concern isn't that because Ozzie used the word rebuilding in a presser, that the team is giving up any hope of winning in January, and we are destined to dump everything, win 60 games, and be miserable. My concern is similar to my concern last year. We have some ? in the rotation and in the field. It worked out well last year, despite many projecting equal to or worse than 07. I am not concerned over what Guillen says - not at all.

I'm really surprised that as long as you've been around this business, and as connected as you are, that you'd be so literal with Ozzie Guillen. You seem to have no problem accusing Guillen or Reinsdorf of outright lying - I am surprised you have no problem taking everything Guillen says for face value.

jabrch
12-16-2008, 05:21 PM
What team, and what team's fan base, isn't concerned right now?

There are a few...and there are many who have reason to be less concerned than us. But it is still only 12/15, and our team still looks not significantly worse than it did last year and our division isn't looking significantly better, so I don't see why we would not be considering this team at least similiarly competitive to the team that won the division last year.

We aren't NYY/BOS/CHC/LAA/ETC. Until our revenue streams are, we shouldn't expect that. But really...we aren't that far off compared to the 2008 Sox...or any Sox team in the recent few years. So we could be as good as the good ones, or as bad as the bad ones. That's Sox baseball - it isn't going to change anytime soon.

2906
12-16-2008, 05:28 PM
There are a few...and there are many who have reason to be less concerned than us. But it is still only 12/15, and our team still looks not significantly worse than it did last year and our division isn't looking significantly better, so I don't see why we would not be considering this team at least similiarly competitive to the team that won the division last year.

We aren't NYY/BOS/CHC/LAA/ETC. Until our revenue streams are, we shouldn't expect that. But really...we aren't that far off compared to the 2008 Sox...or any Sox team in the recent few years. So we could be as good as the good ones, or as bad as the bad ones. That's Sox baseball - it isn't going to change anytime soon.

Agree.

And while it doesn't make me happy NYY are throwing around all these dollars, I was speaking with a friend of mine who's a Yankee fan and he's concerned with the wear and tear on Sabathia and Burnett. I told him I don't feel sorry for him one bit. :D:

I can't hang my hat on Guillen, in his less than perfect English, using the word "rebuilding". Earlier in that same conversation I thought he said if they were rebuilding, all the veterans would've been launched ... Pierzynski, Jenks, Konerko, etc.

jabrch
12-16-2008, 05:40 PM
I can't hang my hat on Guillen, in his less than perfect English, using the word "rebuilding". Earlier in that same conversation I thought he said if they were rebuilding, all the veterans would've been launched ... Pierzynski, Jenks, Konerko, etc.

Really...Does anyone expect Guillen to say, "Well sir, it is not exactly a classic rebuilding in the sense of the 1998/1999 Florida Marlins, rather I would propose this is more of a slight tweak, as seen in the 2007 Red Sox. What we have done is very minor, removing some parts that were underperforming, overpriced or redundant, and built our depth and our farm."

Hell no...what you expect is something like, "Kenee ees rebeelding oos. Feel Cuzzi ees a pees of cheet. He hate me. And Maglio ees a pees of cheet and a Venezuelan muthafuka, **** him. He hate me."

I don't take any of it seriously. I don't think we are rebuilding. I don't think Phil Cuzzi hates Ozzie. And I don't think Magglio hates him either. I doubt Jay Mariotti has sexual relationships with men. Not that there is anything wrong with that. But for crying out loud - taking Ozzie Guillen literally? That's just insanely silly.

Jpgr91
12-16-2008, 07:56 PM
Really...Does anyone expect Guillen to say, "Well sir, it is not exactly a classic rebuilding in the sense of the 1998/1999 Florida Marlins, rather I would propose this is more of a slight tweak, as seen in the 2007 Red Sox. What we have done is very minor, removing some parts that were underperforming, overpriced or redundant, and built our depth and our farm."

Hell no...what you expect is something like, "Kenee ees rebeelding oos. Feel Cuzzi ees a pees of cheet. He hate me. And Maglio ees a pees of cheet and a Venezuelan muthafuka, **** him. He hate me."

I don't take any of it seriously. I don't think we are rebuilding. I don't think Phil Cuzzi hates Ozzie. And I don't think Magglio hates him either. I doubt Jay Mariotti has sexual relationships with men. Not that there is anything wrong with that. But for crying out loud - taking Ozzie Guillen literally? That's just insanely silly.

I would expect more honesty from Ozzie than I would any one else in the organization. KW obviously would never tip his hand and say that the Sox are rebuilding; he would be lowering the value of his players if a trading partner knew that the Sox were comitted to trading a player. No one in ownership or sales would say this, as it would hurt public perception. The only person we can count on for an honest interpertation of the situation is Ozzie. Ozzie, as we know, is brutally honest. I would venture to guess that very few people are in a position to interpert what Ozzie "really" ment.

jabrch
12-16-2008, 10:15 PM
I would expect more honesty from Ozzie than I would any one else in the organization.


Seriously? OG has little control of what exits his trap.

Jpgr91
12-16-2008, 11:21 PM
Seriously? OG has little control of what exits his trap.

Exactly. He has no filter. He does not spin things. I am more likely to believe someone like that rather than someone who may be watching what they say for other reasons.