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gr8mexico
12-11-2008, 08:39 AM
www.rotoworld.com (http://www.rotoworld.com) The Sox want to move JD 1st

Thome25
12-11-2008, 08:47 AM
Here's the shorter route to the link:

http://www.rotoworld.com/content/home_MLB.aspx

Just scroll down a little. I wouldn't mind Abreu if he can steal a few bags like he did last season.

esbrechtel
12-11-2008, 08:49 AM
www.rotoworld.com (http://www.rotoworld.com) The Sox want to move JD 1st

When I first read that I thought you said the sox wanted to move JD TO 1st :redface:

I think I would be okay with that....Abreau is a nice player

Madvora
12-11-2008, 08:55 AM
When I first read that I thought you said the sox wanted to move JD TO 1st :redface:

I think I would be okay with that....Abreau is a nice player
Actually that's what I thought too. I'd probably prefer that. That was something that was actually talked a lot about last year. We'd have to find somewhere to ship PK or Thome though.

Tragg
12-11-2008, 08:58 AM
The trouble with Abreu is that you lock yourself up at a higher salary than JD makes and for a longer period of time. Just doesn't seem like a worthwhile exchange, even for the prospect we'd get for trading JD.
Also - if we're going to sign a FA, why not sign one with the offensive skills we lack, but need - a leadoff hitter. We have plenty of Abreus (and Dyes, which is why I thought we were trading him). Sign Abreu to make the worlds safe for Jerry Owens.

oeo
12-11-2008, 08:59 AM
Actually that's what I thought too. I'd probably prefer that. That was something that was actually talked a lot about last year. We'd have to find somewhere to ship PK or Thome though.

If you can unload Thome, you just move JD straight to DH. Yeah, Paulie's range sucks, but I can't imagine Dye being much better.

Something just reeks Toby Hall and torn labrum to me, as well.

Goose
12-11-2008, 09:05 AM
If you can unload Thome, you just move JD straight to DH. Yeah, Paulie's range sucks, but I can't imagine Dye being much better.

Something just reeks Toby Hall and torn labrum to me, as well.

That is one hell of a big "if".

2906
12-11-2008, 09:19 AM
Also - if we're going to sign a FA, why not sign one with the offensive skills we lack, but need - a leadoff hitter.

Like who?

Tragg
12-11-2008, 09:22 AM
Like who?
Furcal

2906
12-11-2008, 09:24 AM
Furcal

They've got Alexei Ramirez at SS. Furcal wants to play SS. They just jettisoned a guy with a balky back in Crede, they should bring on another one for 4 years and big money? I don't know how smart that is.

Tragg
12-11-2008, 09:35 AM
They've got Alexei Ramirez at SS. Furcal wants to play SS. They just jettisoned a guy with a balky back in Crede, they should bring on another one for 4 years and big money? I don't know how smart that is.
Alexie's first position with the Sox was in the outfield. Why is it set in stone that Alexei must play SS.

I think we're a lot stronger with Furcal-Alexei-Anderson than Alexei-Abreu-Owens

oeo
12-11-2008, 09:37 AM
Alexie's first position with the Sox was in the outfield.

Why do you keep saying this? He started in CF on Opening Day. Who cares?

Thome25
12-11-2008, 09:39 AM
They've got Alexei Ramirez at SS. Furcal wants to play SS. They just jettisoned a guy with a balky back in Crede, they should bring on another one for 4 years and big money? I don't know how smart that is.

If the Sox signed Furcal then Alexei can stay at 2B with no problems.

Tragg
12-11-2008, 09:40 AM
Why do you keep saying this? He started in CF on Opening Day. Who cares?
Because it's true. That is why.
You and Ozzie can enjoy Jerry Owens .320 obp and lousy defense in CF.

Jim Shorts
12-11-2008, 09:41 AM
Alexie's first position with the Sox was in the outfield. Why is it set in stone that Alexei must play SS.



It's his natural position. Many baseball people said TCM was the best shortstop in the organization last year; better defensively than Cabrera or Ozzie:cool:

doublem23
12-11-2008, 09:42 AM
Alexie's first position with the Sox was in the outfield. Why is it set in stone that Alexei must play SS.

I think we're a lot stronger with Furcal-Alexei-Anderson than Alexei-Abreu-Owens

If the Sox signed Furcal then Alexei can stay at 2B with no problems.

All of this ignores what Sox management has said that come hell or high water, Alexei will be the team's shortstop next season.

oeo
12-11-2008, 09:42 AM
Because it's true. That is why.

Like his 'first position' really ****ing matters. That doesn't mean it's his best position, or that he should ever touch it again.

You and Ozzie can enjoy Jerry Owens .320 obp and lousy defense in CF.What? :scratch:

GAsoxfan
12-11-2008, 09:43 AM
If the Sox decide to shell out big money for an OF, I'd rather see them sign Adam Dunn. His OPS was over 50 points higher than Abreu's and he's five years younger. Dunn doesn't have the SB ability Abreu has, but Abreu will be 35 on Opening Day, so how much longer will that last?

thedudeabides
12-11-2008, 09:45 AM
All of this ignores what Sox management has said that come hell or high water, Alexei will be the team's shortstop next season.

But CF was the first position he played. That's all that matters.

Tragg
12-11-2008, 09:47 AM
Like his 'first position' really ****ing matters. That doesn't mean it's his best position, or that he should ever touch it again.


The fact that CF was Guillen's first choice of where to put him suggests to me he can play the position. Is that incorrect? Is he a poor outfielder? After all, Guillen could have put him at 2b (the mighty Uribe was there) and played Anderson in CF, but he didn't.

All of this ignores what Sox management has said that come hell or high water, Alexei will be the team's shortstop next season.
They certainly said that, but they say things often that don't turn out to be true. For example, they perhaps said that to make sure Cabrera didn't accept arbitration. Or maybe they meant it.
But sometimes, you have too be flexible.
The Sox need a leadoff hitter. Furcal's the only one I see out there.
And the big boys aren't bidding on Furcal. No Yankees, no BoSox, no Angels, and the Dodgers don't seem to be THAT serious.

2906
12-11-2008, 09:53 AM
If the Sox signed Furcal then Alexei can stay at 2B with no problems.

I'm sure he could but the Sox won't be signing Furcal. They won't tie up big money in him, the iffy back is only one reason. Gordon Beckham knocking on the door by 2010 is another. It doesn't fit, no matter how much people try to shoehorn it.

I think Williams will shake things up in the OF between now and March, but the infield is set. If they need to make a move there mid season, they will.

oeo
12-11-2008, 09:53 AM
The fact that CF was Guillen's first choice of where to put him suggests to me he can play the position. Is that incorrect? Is he a poor outfielder? After all, Guillen could have put him at 2b (the mighty Uribe was there) and played Anderson in CF, but he didn't.

Yes, he can play the position, but that doesn't mean he should. I really did not see him enough to gauge an opinion on his outfield defense. I do remember him being very cautious. I just don't get why you keep bringing up this 'first position' crap. It doesn't mean a damn thing.

Also, Ozzie mentioned it quite a few times, and we saw it in Spring Training: Alexei's defense was very 'rough' when he came over. He still has some flaws, but he's improved quite a bit.

2906
12-11-2008, 10:03 AM
If the Sox decide to shell out big money for an OF, I'd rather see them sign Adam Dunn. His OPS was over 50 points higher than Abreu's and he's five years younger. Dunn doesn't have the SB ability Abreu has, but Abreu will be 35 on Opening Day, so how much longer will that last?

To be honest, I'm not thrilled with signing a soon to be 35 yr. old OF either, but sometimes it's wise to step back and look at a bigger picture.

Abreu doesn't strike out much, he's a pro's pro, strong OBP guy and he is tight with Guillen ... and whether we like it or not that does carry some weight. He adds some speed and baserunning smarts, even at 35. He can fill an organizational gap because the White Sox have no blue chip OF prospects knocking on the door.

To put it another way, it doesn't surprise me one bit to see Abreu's name linked with the White Sox. Doesn't mean it will happen though.

Tragg
12-11-2008, 10:03 AM
I just think that the Sox need a) a leadoff hitter and b) improved OF defense.
The current plan of Owens in CF and Owens at leadoff is too scary to think about....it severely exacerbates both weaknesses a) and b) from last year.
Owens would be barely tolerable if we could stick him in left like we did Pods, but we can't. (he would also need to raise the OBP by 30 points to make that work).
We can have improvement in b) in house: Anderson - he D is good enough to support some weak corner play; but his O is so bad right now that he needs to be the worst hitter in the lineup and just own the 9 hole.
To do that, we need a real leadoff hitter somewhere.

Signing Abreu doesn't really solve any problems.

oeo
12-11-2008, 10:11 AM
I just think that the Sox need a) a leadoff hitter and b) improved OF defense.
The current plan of Owens in CF and Owens at leadoff is too scary to think about....it severely exacerbates both weaknesses a) and b) from last year.
Owens would be barely tolerable if we could stick him in left like we did Pods, but we can't. (he would also need to raise the OBP by 30 points to make that work).
We can have improvement in b) in house: Anderson - he D is good enough to support some weak corner play; but his O is so bad right now that he needs to be the worst hitter in the lineup and just own the 9 hole.
To do that, we need a real leadoff hitter somewhere.

Signing Abreu doesn't really solve any problems.

What about the in house guy in Chris Getz who you continue to just completely ignore? Low K, good discipline, contact hitter. I'm willing to give him a shot at leadoff.

russ99
12-11-2008, 10:12 AM
I just think that the Sox need a) a leadoff hitter and b) improved OF defense.
The current plan of Owens in CF and Owens at leadoff is too scary to think about....it severely exacerbates both weaknesses a) and b) from last year.
Owens would be barely tolerable if we could stick him in left like we did Pods, but we can't. (he would also need to raise the OBP by 30 points to make that work).
We can have improvement in b) in house: Anderson - he D is good enough to support some weak corner play; but his O is so bad right now that he needs to be the worst hitter in the lineup and just own the 9 hole.
To do that, we need a real leadoff hitter somewhere.

Signing Abreu doesn't really solve any problems.

That's why I think Hudson is the real target. Solve both problems if BA is in center. But I don't think the Sox want to go over 2-3 years, which is why Furcal is out.

russ99
12-11-2008, 10:13 AM
What about the in house guy in Chris Getz who you continue to just completely ignore? Low K, good discipline, contact hitter. I'm willing to give him a shot at leadoff.

This is the problem with the lineup right now. We have lots of decent young and/or stopgap guys who can fill the 8-9 spot, but there's 4 of them, and none of them are really an option at 1 and 2.

Owens is really the only fit at #1 and that's a pretty big stretch of the imagination. Even Ozzie said Getz would start at the 9 spot.

soxfan43
12-11-2008, 10:14 AM
All of this ignores what Sox management has said that come hell or high water, Alexei will be the team's shortstop next season.


Just like Josh Fields was the third basemen last year?

2906
12-11-2008, 10:15 AM
Signing Abreu doesn't really solve any problems.

Actually it does.

He adds baserunning smarts, he's a very good hitter with a good eye, high OBP guy, and I strongly suspect he'd fit in the clubhouse. He can play the OF corners and while he's not great out there, he's not bad either. He brings a needed lefthanded bat.

Those are all problems the White Sox have. I agree they need a leadoff hitter more, but Abreu would help the team. Sometimes the dominoes don't fall in exact order.

Signing him doesn't necessarily mean Owens plays CF and leads off. They aren't tied together. Other moves may well happen and I think the picture will be clearer in a month.

oeo
12-11-2008, 10:15 AM
This is the problem with the lineup right now. We have lots of decent young and/or stopgap guys who can fill the 8-9 spot, but there's 4 of them, and none of them are really an option at 1 and 2.

Even Ozzie said Getz would start at the 9 spot.

Getz is currently the best option, and with the way Ozzie moves lineups around, I'm sure we'll see him leading off at some point. Hopefully it sticks.

Jerry Owens probably won't make it through the Spring without a groin or hamstring problem, so even if he is the plan to leadoff, he probably won't come up with the team. So where else does that even leave Ozzie's options on Opening Day? Alexei? That's about it, and he wouldn't make much a leadoff hitter.

2906
12-11-2008, 10:17 AM
Just like Josh Fields was the third basemen last year?

Different situation. They said he had the leg up at 3B unless/until Crede could prove he was healthy.

oeo
12-11-2008, 10:22 AM
Different situation. They said he had the leg up at 3B unless/until Crede could prove he was healthy.

Actually, they wanted to trade Crede. Kenny wasn't getting any offers that impressed him, though. In hindsight, he should have just taken something for him.

Bucky F. Dent
12-11-2008, 10:27 AM
IMO, our current area of concern in the field is centerfield, and our current area of concern with the lineup is leadoff. Abreu solves neither of these problems.

If Dye is dealt, that changes the equation.

Until Dye is dealt, no dice.

UofCSoxFan
12-11-2008, 10:32 AM
If the Sox signed Furcal then Alexei can stay at 2B with no problems.

Yep. I don't want to see Alexei in the OF, but he's shown he can be a serviceable 2B that makes spectacular plays from time to time. I know SS was his main position in Cuba, but frankly, I'm not 100% confident he'll be all that great at SS in the major leauges (much like many college SS move to 2B in the majors). I wouldn't mind seeing him stay at 2b. Granted it's easier to find a fill in 2b than SS but if we could get a stud SS the "inevitable move of TCM to SS" should not be a reason to prevent this. I'm not saying I want Furcal, but I'm not married to TCM at SS either.

UofCSoxFan
12-11-2008, 10:34 AM
IMO, our current area of concern in the field is centerfield, and our current area of concern with the lineup is leadoff. Abreu solves neither of these problems.

If Dye is dealt, that changes the equation.

Until Dye is dealt, no dice.

Exactly. If we signed Abreau before moving Dye, we'd be in the same situation we were in last year with Swisher (with a guy that can play even less positions). If we moved Dye, I would hope we'd pick up another stick, however, in addition to a CF.

DaveFeelsRight
12-11-2008, 10:36 AM
would rather have abreu than him still being on the yankees or gets picked up by another american league team. dude kills the sox

Madscout
12-11-2008, 10:43 AM
Getz is currently the best option, and with the way Ozzie moves lineups around, I'm sure we'll see him leading off at some point. Hopefully it sticks.

Jerry Owens probably won't make it through the Spring without a groin or hamstring problem, so even if he is the plan to leadoff, he probably won't come up with the team. So where else does that even leave Ozzie's options on Opening Day? Alexei? That's about it, and he wouldn't make much a leadoff hitter.
:praying:
I know it is wrong to wish bad on our players, but that injury last year got us into the playoffs hands down.

oeo
12-11-2008, 10:44 AM
Exactly. If we signed Abreau before moving Dye, we'd be in the same situation we were in last year with Swisher (with a guy that can play even less positions). If we moved Dye, I would hope we'd pick up another stick, however, in addition to a CF.

I think the idea is, you move Dye for a SP, and sign Abreu to step into Dye's spot in RF. If Dye isn't moved, Abreu isn't signed.

StepsInSC
12-11-2008, 10:45 AM
Am I the only one who'd rather have Dye than Abreu?

oeo
12-11-2008, 10:47 AM
Am I the only one who'd rather have Dye than Abreu?

Depends on what you want. Abreu's power has declined, and while his speed has shown signs of decline it's still >>>> Dye's. Both have good arms, and defense is skeptical. Abreu has a very good eye, Dye, OTOH, not so much. Also take into account what we get in return for Dye, and that we don't lose anything but a few million dollars by signing Abreu.

In other words, if you want more power and one more hole, then stick with Dye.

WhiteSoxFan84
12-11-2008, 11:03 AM
A lineup w/ the addition of only Abreu and the subtraction of Dye...
1) Owens - CF
2) Abreu - RF
3) Quentin - LF
4) Thome - DH
5) Konerko - 1B
6) Pierzynski - C
7) Alexei - SS
8) Fields - 3B
9) Getz - 2B

Hmmm... i like the L/L/R/L/R/L/R we'd have 1-7 and if Owens isn't our leadoff man for the whole season, I'm sure he'll be replaced by a righty and we'd have R/L/R/L/R/L/R 1-7. Good balance, as long as as the players making up that good balance are at the very least adequate ballplayers.

And I think it's safe to assume that Dye would be dealt for a Major League ready starting pitcher and I wouldn't be surprised if it ends up being Homer Bailey as talks for Dye to Cincy have not gone away completely.

munchman33
12-11-2008, 11:03 AM
Am I the only one who'd rather have Dye than Abreu?

No.

But if you'd rather have Dye for one year versus Abreu for three and prospects we'd get in a trade for Dye, then you are alone.

ms620
12-11-2008, 11:05 AM
Am I the only one who'd rather have Dye than Abreu?

While I like JD, I would much rather have Abreu + starting pitcher (or even prospects) than JD. Abreu has a much better OBP, and would would give ozzie more options in regards to stealing and hit and runs. I would definately support trading JD and than signing Abreu.

khan
12-11-2008, 11:40 AM
I think the idea is, you move Dye for a SP, and sign Abreu to step into Dye's spot in RF. If Dye isn't moved, Abreu isn't signed.
Agreed. I'd rather have JD than Abreu, particularly at their respective price tags.

But Abreu + another SP, vs. JD, I'd rather take the former than the latter. Particularly when you look at the rotation and its current lack of depth/experience. Also, when you consider the lack of quality OF in the 25/40 man rosters and the lack of OF prospects in the organization.

But again, it depends on what it will cost to move JD, what KW can get back, and what Abreu wants in terms of a contract/role in the team. Moreover, Abreu can be a nice Thome replacement, from the standpoint of having a lefty bat with some power beyond 2009.

cbrownson13
12-11-2008, 12:10 PM
Yep. I don't want to see Alexei in the OF, but he's shown he can be a serviceable 2B that makes spectacular plays from time to time. I know SS was his main position in Cuba, but frankly, I'm not 100% confident he'll be all that great at SS in the major leauges (much like many college SS move to 2B in the majors). I wouldn't mind seeing him stay at 2b. Granted it's easier to find a fill in 2b than SS but if we could get a stud SS the "inevitable move of TCM to SS" should not be a reason to prevent this. I'm not saying I want Furcal, but I'm not married to TCM at SS either.

I wouldn't have a problem with keeping Alexei at 2B either. But what "stud" SS are out there to be had? One of Lillibridge/Getz/Nix will work out until Beckham is ready. 2B is a position where we don't need a stud. Just someone who can make contact and be adequate defensively. Centerfield/Lead-off is our main problem right now. I hate that we have so many question marks right now. It's very unsettling. Lead-off man? CF? 3B? 2B? 4th/5th spots in the rotation? Granted we have answers for all those questions right now. Just not very good ones.

cbrownson13
12-11-2008, 12:14 PM
Alexie's first position with the Sox was in the outfield. Why is it set in stone that Alexei must play SS.



This logic would suggest Swisher as a good fit in CF because he played there a lot? We saw how that worked out. Alexei is not the guy we want in CF. We want him at SS/2B. He didn't look good out there in his time last year.

Zisk77
12-11-2008, 12:17 PM
The trouble with Abreu is that you lock yourself up at a higher salary than JD makes and for a longer period of time. Just doesn't seem like a worthwhile exchange, even for the prospect we'd get for trading JD.
Also - if we're going to sign a FA, why not sign one with the offensive skills we lack, but need - a leadoff hitter. We have plenty of Abreus (and Dyes, which is why I thought we were trading him). Sign Abreu to make the worlds safe for Jerry Owens.


Not really. Abreu's yearly salary won't be much of an increase over Dye's. while there's still more years on Abreu's deal they are neutralized when u consider Thome and Jose's contract will be coming off the book next year. Also, it will be just as easy to trade Abreu for prospects in a year or two as it is to trade JD now (provided he doesn't tank...which I think is worth the risk).

I think Kenny should sign abreu and then trade JD rather than the other way around. If you trade JD and someone els outbids u for Abreu you are sol. If you get lucky, Someone other than the Angels signs Texiera and you can trade Konerko for Figgins (solve the leadoff problem) and then keep Dye and move him or Abreu to 1b...maybe. Someone actually trading for thome would make it unbelievably better as Dye or Abreu could then be Dh.

chunk
12-11-2008, 12:19 PM
Not really. Abreu's yearly salary won't be much of an increase over Dye's. while there's still more years on Abreu's deal they are neutralized when u consider Thome and Jose's contract will be coming off the book next year. Also, it will be just as easy to trade Abreu for prospects in a year or two as it is to trade JD now (provided he doesn't tank...which I think is worth the risk).

I think Kenny should sign abreu and then trade JD rather than the other way around. If you trade JD and someone els outbids u for Abreu you are sol. If you get lucky, Someone other than the Angels signs Texiera and you can trade Konerko for Figgins (solve the leadoff problem) and then keep Dye and move him or Abreu to 1b...maybe. Someone actually trading for thome would make it unbelievably better as Dye or Abreu could then be Dh.

I wouldn't say that you're SOL, only because there are similars players to Abreu still available (Dunn, Burrell), none of whom will cost any draft picks.

khan
12-11-2008, 12:23 PM
I wouldn't say that you're SOL, only because there are similars players to Abreu still available (Dunn, Burrell), none of whom will cost any draft picks.

The problem is that Dunn and Burrell are Fields-like in their ability to rack up the Ks and kill rallies when they don't hit HR. And the slow, plodding HR-or-nothing philosophy would live on.

Abreu>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>Dunn or Burrell in every aspect of the game except for HR.

Zisk77
12-11-2008, 12:27 PM
I wouldn't say that you're SOL, only because there are similars players to Abreu still available (Dunn, Burrell), none of whom will cost any draft picks.


Yes, but none of those are consistent hitters who can run. They are more of what we already have...Konerko, Thome, etc. No run high-k

Zisk77
12-11-2008, 12:29 PM
i think a big reason why we/ve been dumping salary is that next year FA class has the players to fit our needs while this one is sparse for our concerns.

Bucky F. Dent
12-11-2008, 12:30 PM
Am I the only one who'd rather have Dye than Abreu?


Straight up, no. However, if Dye nets you a starting pitcher for the end of the rotation and a prospect, and then you pick up Abreu; that makes some sense. It still leaves open the CF/lead off problem, but it makes sense.

WhiteSoxFan84
12-11-2008, 12:31 PM
Keep in mind, as stupid as it is to hear teams being linked to players only to drive up their prices so competitors end up paying more for them, this maybe the case. Kenny and Jerry have to be concerned about their competitor up North being (or were) so close to bringing a huge name like Jake Peavy into town with them already having such a huge "marquee name advantage" (marquee, not Marquis :redneck). So the Sox may have leaked some "stories" about them being interested in Abreu and his agent(s) may have took it a step further and said "the Sox are the frontrunner for Abreu" which would get teams like the Cubs and whomever else is interested to start approaching Abreu more seriously and even increasing their offers.

But I'd rather it be true, we sign him for relatively cheap (9-11 mill per), and the trade involving Dye brings us back a young, talented, Major League ready SP and maybe even a minor league or 2.

GAsoxfan
12-11-2008, 12:32 PM
The problem is that Dunn and Burrell are Fields-like in their ability to rack up the Ks and kill rallies when they don't hit HR. And the slow, plodding HR-or-nothing philosophy would live on.

Abreu>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>Dunn or Burrell in every aspect of the game except for HR.

Dunn does strike out a lot, but he still has a higher OBP than Abreu, so he's not exactly HR or nothing (I guess he's HR, BB, or nothing). I wouldn't want Dunn as my main RBI guy since he does walk/K so often, but he's not really a rally-killer.

WhiteSoxFan84
12-11-2008, 12:35 PM
Dunn does strike out a lot, but he still has a higher OBP than Abreu, so he's not exactly HR or nothing (I guess he's HR, BB, or nothing). I wouldn't want Dunn as my main RBI guy since he does walk/K so often, but he's not really a rally-killer.

Someone on ESPN put it best, Dunn is a player that "doesn't put the ball in play". As you said, it's either a HR (no play to be made their unless it's just over the fence), walk, or strikeout (unless Dunn swings, misses, and the catcher doesn't hang on to the ball).

GAsoxfan
12-11-2008, 12:51 PM
Someone on ESPN put it best, Dunn is a player that "doesn't put the ball in play". As you said, it's either a HR (no play to be made their unless it's just over the fence), walk, or strikeout (unless Dunn swings, misses, and the catcher doesn't hang on to the ball).

That's a very good way to put it. He was 137th in hits this past season, but 17th in OBP. Like I said earlier, I wouldn't want him as the main cog in my offense, but he's a very useful player.

khan
12-11-2008, 01:13 PM
That's a very good way to put it. He was 137th in hits this past season, but 17th in OBP. Like I said earlier, I wouldn't want him as the main cog in my offense, but he's a very useful player.

Of course, you fail to mention how he's an absolute butcher in the field.

Look, I don't disagree with your statement that Dunn's a "useful" offensive player. But he's yet another slow, plodding, HR-or-nothing slugger who can't catch a cold. As it stands, in addition to Thome/Konerko/Dye, we have depth at the slow, plodding, HR-or-nothing slugger who can't catch a cold position already: Fields, possibly Viciedo(sp?), and possibly Flowers.

So why would we add another? Abreu, though no gold glover himself, won't embarass himself as often as Dunn. And Abreu hits for a higher average and can actually move his feet a bit, too.

IF Thome/Konerko/Dye/Fields were gone AND Viciedo/Flowers prove to be capable at defense, then sure. Add Dunn to the team. But as I type this, I'd still rather have Abreu on the SOX than Dunn everyday, and twice on gameday.

guillensdisciple
12-11-2008, 01:20 PM
Isn't Jermaine better then Bobby?

I am wondering what he could possibly give us but a few more stolen bases.

His fielding isn't great, I have seen him play some horrible outfield. His hitting has declined, and he is now a power hitter with a slower bat.

I don't see why we would give up Dye to either get a worse player, or one of the same quality and pay more for him.

thedudeabides
12-11-2008, 01:25 PM
Isn't Jermaine better then Bobby?

I am wondering what he could possibly give us but a few more stolen bases.

His fielding isn't great, I have seen him play some horrible outfield. His hitting has declined, and he is now a power hitter with a slower bat.

I don't see why we would give up Dye to either get a worse player, or one of the same quality and pay more for him.

How has his hitting declined? Look at his numbers. His avg, obp, rbi's, and slugging are very consistant. And he can still give you 20-30 steals and provide good baserunning. I'm not saying he is better than JD, but getting him for around the same cost while aquiring players for JD is the difference. It helps breakup the plodding lineup.

guillensdisciple
12-11-2008, 01:32 PM
How has his hitting declined? Look at his numbers. His avg, obp, rbi's, and slugging are very consistant. And he can still give you 20-30 steals and provide good baserunning. I'm not saying he is better than JD, but getting him for around the same cost while aquiring players for JD is the difference. It helps breakup the plodding lineup.

Yep, the numbers are the same, sorry didn't check.

He is turning 35 though, don't people slow down with age? I am afraid that within a year he would just be a White Sox "regular".

Taliesinrk
12-11-2008, 01:54 PM
Isn't Jermaine better then Bobby?

I am wondering what he could possibly give us but a few more stolen bases.

His fielding isn't great, I have seen him play some horrible outfield. His hitting has declined, and he is now a power hitter with a slower bat.

I don't see why we would give up Dye to either get a worse player, or one of the same quality and pay more for him.

It's pretty straight forward. I don't understand why others keep making this assumption (for the record, I'm not too sure I want the Sox to deal Dye).

The proposal isn't Abreu for Dye.
The proposal is Abreu and possible SP (+ prospects)/prospects (1 very good one) for Dye.

It's hard to argue the latter wouldn't be a better scenario (depending on who the Sox get for Dye). The issue I have is that Dye is putting up great numbers, and if the Sox could find a way to get rid of Thome (which will happen next year), both players would be great.

sox1970
12-11-2008, 02:10 PM
Jesse Rogers was on the Score earlier. He said there's no truth to the Abreu rumor. Said it was probably made up by his agent.

oeo
12-11-2008, 02:11 PM
Jesse Rogers was on the Score earlier. He said there's no truth to the Abreu rumor. Said it was probably made up by his agent.

Are the Sox going to come out and say they're after Abreu? How does that help with Dye negotiations?

Flight #24
12-11-2008, 02:26 PM
It's pretty straight forward. I don't understand why others keep making this assumption (for the record, I'm not too sure I want the Sox to deal Dye).

The proposal isn't Abreu for Dye.
The proposal is Abreu and possible SP (+ prospects)/prospects (1 very good one) for Dye.

It's hard to argue the latter wouldn't be a better scenario (depending on who the Sox get for Dye). The issue I have is that Dye is putting up great numbers, and if the Sox could find a way to get rid of Thome (which will happen next year), both players would be great.

To be totally fair, I expect Abreu to get more than Dye. He won't get a long deal (say 3 years), but IMO he'll get $12-15M/yr. Since Dye makes I believe ~$10, it's Dye+$2-5M or Abreu+Prospects

Taliesinrk
12-11-2008, 02:29 PM
To be totally fair, I expect Abreu to get more than Dye. He won't get a long deal (say 3 years), but IMO he'll get $12-15M/yr. Since Dye makes I believe ~$10, it's Dye+$2-5M or Abreu+Prospects

Good point. I guess my biggest issue was that people kept acting as if this was a Dye for Abreu swap - which it clearly isn't.

Tragg
12-11-2008, 02:34 PM
The Phillies had tried to trade him for a while before the Yanks bit; the Yanks didn't even offer arb to him.
Is he a good teammate who plays above his stats?

thedudeabides
12-11-2008, 04:30 PM
The Phillies had tried to trade him for a while before the Yanks bit; the Yanks didn't even offer arb to him.
Is he a good teammate who plays above his stats?

He was a salary dump for Philly, and arbitration would have likely cost the Yankees at least 17 million and the Yankees had other options. His stats may be a bit inflated, but I've never heard of him being a bad teamate.

soxinem1
12-11-2008, 05:06 PM
The problem is that Dunn and Burrell are Fields-like in their ability to rack up the Ks and kill rallies when they don't hit HR. And the slow, plodding HR-or-nothing philosophy would live on.

Abreu>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>Dunn or Burrell in every aspect of the game except for HR.

I wouldn't exactly call Abreu a contact hitter. He has whiffed over 1400 times in his career, an average of nearly 130 K's a season!!

Plus, unless he would really start driving the ball for a ton of HR's, his SLG would take a big hit here. He is a doubles-type hitter, and The Cell is not a doubles-type park.

SoxNation05
12-11-2008, 07:36 PM
I wouldn't exactly call Abreu a contact hitter. He has whiffed over 1400 times in his career, an average of nearly 130 K's a season!!

Plus, unless he would really start driving the ball for a ton of HR's, his SLG would take a big hit here. He is a doubles-type hitter, and The Cell is not a doubles-type park.
There is no such thing as a park that is not suited for doubles.

Frater Perdurabo
12-11-2008, 08:16 PM
There is no such thing as a park that is not suited for doubles.

The smaller dimensions at the Cell mean there are fewer gaps for balls to fall and go to the wall.

But then again, some hits that are doubles in some parks are homers at the Cell.

NLaloosh
12-12-2008, 08:25 AM
Firstly, Abreu would not cost the Sox any draft picks since the Yankees did not offer him arbitration.

Secondly, he would be a very good fit for the Sox because he would be a great leadoff hitter - high OBP and can still run and steal a few bases.

Also, he's still a decent outfielder and can play RF even though the Sox will probably move Quentin there. He's also a LF bat and after Thome leaves there will be no left handed power on this team.

The question is: what would the contract be?

If the Sox could trade Dye for a couple of real good prospects and then sign Abreu for about the same deal as Dye had it would be awesome for the Sox.

But, I still don't think it will happen.

Craig Grebeck
12-12-2008, 08:26 AM
Firstly, Abreu would not cost the Sox any draft picks since the Yankees did not offer him arbitration.

Secondly, he would be a very good fit for the Sox because he would be a great leadoff hitter - high OBP and can still run and steal a few bases.

Also, he's still a decent outfielder and can play RF even though the Sox will probably move Quentin there. He's also a LF bat and after Thome leaves there will be no left handed power on this team.

The question is: what would the contract be?

If the Sox could trade Dye for a couple of real good prospects and then sign Abreu for about the same deal as Dye had it would be awesome for the Sox.

But, I still don't think it will happen.
If by "decent" you mean "possibly worse than Dye" you may be correct.

GAsoxfan
12-12-2008, 08:49 AM
Secondly, he would be a very good fit for the Sox because he would be a great leadoff hitter - high OBP and can still run and steal a few bases.

I think that's a pretty big assumption. Yes, he has a good OBP, but he's only had 24 ABs in the leadoff spot over the last three years. Some guys struggle in the leadoff role for whatever reason.

DaveFeelsRight
12-12-2008, 10:04 AM
I think that's a pretty big assumption. Yes, he has a good OBP, but he's only had 24 ABs in the leadoff spot over the last three years. Some guys struggle in the leadoff role for whatever reason.http://www.aolcdn.com/aolnews_photos/0e/05/20080311225909990001

"hey wait a minute..............."

tm1119
12-12-2008, 10:07 AM
To be totally fair, I expect Abreu to get more than Dye. He won't get a long deal (say 3 years), but IMO he'll get $12-15M/yr. Since Dye makes I believe ~$10, it's Dye+$2-5M or Abreu+Prospects

Nah no way Abreu gets that much. Aside from the insane pitching contracts everyone is getting less $ this year. Raul Ibanez just got 10mil per year and hes been putting up better #'s tahn Abreu the past couple of years. Id say Abreu gets 12mil per tops. But more likely right around what Ibanez got at 3/30mil.

btrain929
12-18-2008, 10:00 PM
http://www.google.com/hostednews/ap/article/ALeqM5iMU1hMbLy85fwJw3oRz0pfvTXGJgD955BNOO0

Ozzie was talking about the economy and how it'll affect baseball, etc. Then he also said there's interest from the Sox in Abreu, but that other teams obviously are interested in him as well.

WhiteSoxFan84
12-18-2008, 11:11 PM
http://www.google.com/hostednews/ap/article/ALeqM5iMU1hMbLy85fwJw3oRz0pfvTXGJgD955BNOO0

Ozzie was talking about the economy and how it'll affect baseball, etc. Then he also said there's interest from the Sox in Abreu, but that other teams obviously are interested in him as well.

http://www.digital-tv.co.uk/blog/wp-content/uploads/2008/03/borat-high-five.jpg

"I like!"

CWSpalehoseCWS
12-18-2008, 11:21 PM
http://www.digital-tv.co.uk/blog/wp-content/uploads/2008/03/borat-high-five.jpg

"I like!"

More like: "How much?"

Konerko05
12-19-2008, 02:55 PM
Cue Hawk's "WHERE'S HE GONNA PLAY?" routine.

Lip Man 1
12-19-2008, 03:51 PM
Konerko:

RF after the Sox deal Dye.

Lip

SOXfnNlansing
12-19-2008, 04:20 PM
If they can dump Thome, then I'd do it

Foulke You
12-19-2008, 05:08 PM
If they can dump Thome, then I'd do it
Thome is very difficult to move. He can't play 1B anymore so that eliminates the NL teams. You certainly wouldn't want to trade him to a division rival so that leaves the 5 team AL East and the 4 team AL West as Thome's only realistic destination. Throw in full no-trade rights on Thome's contract and you quickly realize that #25 will be back in the DH spot for the Sox next season.

Sam Spade
12-19-2008, 05:10 PM
Konerko:

RF after the Sox deal Dye.

Lip


Just out of curiosity, did paulie have a good arm at third?

pearso66
12-19-2008, 05:21 PM
Just out of curiosity, did paulie have a good arm at third?

I have no idea, but please tell me this isn't getting to putting him there? If so, there is a reason he isn't playing there.

Sam Spade
12-19-2008, 06:24 PM
lol, it just made me wonder. We all know it would NEVER happen. He'd be just as likely to pitch.

cburns
12-20-2008, 12:32 AM
Whoever was frustrated at Swisher for keeping his bat on the shoulder while strike 3 went by would be 1000x more pissed off at Abreu, if he comes here. Also Abreu's demeanor is sure-fire to piss off half the fanbase. I'm neither for or against Abreu, but he is what he is. By the same token I'd rather sign Adam Dunn, deal with him in left field for a year and move Quentin to right. After that move him to either first base or DH in 2010 after Thome leaves.

NLaloosh
12-20-2008, 07:22 AM
Adam Dunn? No thanks.

Why not just extend Konerko, Thome or Dye? Dunn is just what the Sox are trying to get rid of. He's a poor defender, slow, strikes out a lot and is NOT a situational hitter - besides being very expensive. Bad idea.

They were would be better served by waiting for Brandon Allen to take over 1B in 2010.

Lukin13
12-20-2008, 07:55 AM
Adam Dunn? No thanks.

Why not just extend Konerko, Thome or Dye?

Adam Dunn despite his low average has a considerably higher OBP than Koneko, Thome, or Dye. Dunn while not a speed demon does not clog the bases like Konkero or Thome; he actually stole 19 bases in 2002. Dunn is a bad outfielder but many believe he would be a servicable first baseman; obviously he could also DH for the Sox in '10. Your claim about him not being a situational hitter might hold weight, I haven't seen enough of him (and from your knowledge on other aspects of the game I doubt you have as well), but honestly how many times is your cleanup hitter supposed to do anything but crush the ball? I like fundamental baseball as much as the next guy but the Sox play at the Cell, not Petco. Another plus, Dunn is also left handed while our other seemingly mainstays are all right handed (PK, TCQ, TCM, Fields).

Also, unlike Konerko and Dye, Dunn has been one of the most consistent hitters in baseball clocking his 40/100/.385 for six straight years now. He is an absolute offensive monster.

And coming into this offseason I actually had zero interest in signing him because I figured Ozzie would put him in LF, and I just cannot stand bad defense. But, then the damn D'backs don't even offer him arbitration, the market is so weak it wasn't worth a couple draft picks to RISK having to pay Dunn for one year. So now with no compensation to give, and ridiculously low rumored contract numbers being thrown about, I am on board for an Adam Dunn acquisition.

Frater Perdurabo
12-20-2008, 08:15 AM
And coming into this offseason I actually had zero interest in signing him because I figured Ozzie would put him in LF, and I just cannot stand bad defense. But, then the damn D'backs don't even offer him arbitration, the market is so weak it wasn't worth a couple draft picks to RISK having to pay Dunn for one year. So now with no compensation to give, and ridiculously low rumored contract numbers being thrown about, I am on board for an Adam Dunn acquisition.

Good points. I'd like to see the Sox sign Dunn and then deal Paulie to the Angels for Figgins. A lineup of: 3B Figgins, 2B Getz, LF Quentin, 1B Dunn, RF Dye, DH Thome, SS Alexei, C AJ, CF BA has better speed and power and OBP and balance than what the Sox have now, while likely being cost-neutral.

Craig Grebeck
12-20-2008, 08:41 AM
I want no part of Dunn. He possesses "old-player skills" and plays awful defense. He'll decline quicker and unexpectedly, more than likely in the duration of his next deal.

As for Abreu, he's due to fall off a cliff anytime now. Pass.

SBSoxFan
12-20-2008, 09:42 AM
What he said:

Good points. I'd like to see the Sox sign Dunn and then deal Paulie to the Angels for Figgins. A lineup of: 3B Figgins, 2B Getz, LF Quentin, 1B Dunn, RF Dye, DH Thome, SS Alexei, C AJ, CF BA has better speed and power and OBP and balance than what the Sox have now, while likely being cost-neutral.

What he meant:

I'd like to see the Sox deal Paulie to the Angels for Figgins.

:redneck

champagne030
12-20-2008, 10:18 AM
Good points. I'd like to see the Sox sign Dunn and then deal Paulie to the Angels for Figgins. A lineup of: 3B Figgins, 2B Getz, LF Quentin, 1B Dunn, RF Dye, DH Thome, SS Alexei, C AJ, CF BA has better speed and power and OBP and balance than what the Sox have now, while likely being cost-neutral.

But Bonerko is our Captain. :scratch:

http://images.starpulse.com/Photos/Previews/Dead-Poets-Society-07.jpg

Frater Perdurabo
12-20-2008, 10:54 AM
What he said:



What he meant:

I'd like to see the Sox deal Paulie to the Angels for Figgins.

:redneck

I guess need to develop some new schtick. :tongue:

SBSoxFan
12-20-2008, 02:24 PM
I guess need to develop some new schtick. :tongue:

At least your consistent. :smile:

jabrch
12-20-2008, 03:09 PM
Konerko:

RF after the Sox deal Dye.

Lip

Really?

Yuck

NLaloosh
12-20-2008, 04:43 PM
Adam Dunn despite his low average has a considerably higher OBP than Koneko, Thome, or Dye. Dunn while not a speed demon does not clog the bases like Konkero or Thome; he actually stole 19 bases in 2002. Dunn is a bad outfielder but many believe he would be a servicable first baseman; obviously he could also DH for the Sox in '10. Your claim about him not being a situational hitter might hold weight, I haven't seen enough of him (and from your knowledge on other aspects of the game I doubt you have as well), but honestly how many times is your cleanup hitter supposed to do anything but crush the ball? I like fundamental baseball as much as the next guy but the Sox play at the Cell, not Petco. Another plus, Dunn is also left handed while our other seemingly mainstays are all right handed (PK, TCQ, TCM, Fields).

Also, unlike Konerko and Dye, Dunn has been one of the most consistent hitters in baseball clocking his 40/100/.385 for six straight years now. He is an absolute offensive monster.

And coming into this offseason I actually had zero interest in signing him because I figured Ozzie would put him in LF, and I just cannot stand bad defense. But, then the damn D'backs don't even offer him arbitration, the market is so weak it wasn't worth a couple draft picks to RISK having to pay Dunn for one year. So now with no compensation to give, and ridiculously low rumored contract numbers being thrown about, I am on board for an Adam Dunn acquisition.\\\\

Yeah, completely disagree with you. Dunn is not a very good baseball player.

He stole 19 bases in 2002 ? Wow, it's too bad we won't be playing the 2003 season.

I'd much rather have Abreu (actually stole bases last season)and for less money. Better in every way except power.

Craig Grebeck
12-20-2008, 05:32 PM
\\\\

Yeah, completely disagree with you. Dunn is not a very good baseball player.

He stole 19 bases in 2002 ? Wow, it's too bad we won't be playing the 2003 season.

I'd much rather have Abreu (actually stole bases last season)and for less money. Better in every way except power.
Who cares how many he stole? He was caught 11 times out of 33 attempts. Brutal.

drewcifer
12-20-2008, 05:36 PM
Who cares how many he stole? He was caught 11 times out of 33 attempts. Brutal.

:rolleyes:

You don't watch Yankee games. I'd bet at least 9 of these are stupid Girardi hit/run calls.

Craig Grebeck
12-20-2008, 05:38 PM
:rolleyes:

You don't watch Yankee games. I'd bet at least 9 of these are stupid Girardi hit/run calls.
Actually, it's probably a natural decline from the year before, in which he was 25/33.

Lukin13
12-20-2008, 07:01 PM
\\\\

Yeah, completely disagree with you. Dunn is not a very good baseball player.

He stole 19 bases in 2002 ? Wow, it's too bad we won't be playing the 2003 season.

I'd much rather have Abreu (actually stole bases last season)and for less money. Better in every way except power.

Since you started spewing garbage here a few months ago, the last argument I wanted to get into with you was one about adding another one tool, offensive slugger... :D: Especially, with me on the side of the slugger, but you have drawn me in.

The 19 stolen bases in '02 was to demonstrate the fact that he will not clog the bases, not stating that he is going to be a base stealer this year. Sorry that was too hard for you to understand.

Your original argument that I responded to was: Why sign Dunn when you can extend PK or Thome?

Which I pointed out is incorrect because in fact they are in different leagues from each other. Dunn is 10X more consistent, younger, and maybe even cheaper.

And you respond with your statement that Dunn isn't a good baseball player (I assume you mean fundamentally sound, grinder style player?), and that you would rather someone else.

I'd much rather have Texeira, Arod, Willy Mays, etc. Not sure how Bobby Abreu has anything to do with the my point that apparently Adam Dunn and his automatic 40/100/.385 is extremely underrated in the FA market?

I don't like Dunn in LF, and unless he can be at least an average first baseman I don't like him there either; But I love his value at 4yrs/$50,000,000, even if he needs to DH in 2010. I've also seen 3/36 predicted. I'd pencil him in as your 2009 AL MVP if he came to the Cell.

I'll oblige your Abreu comparison. Bobby was agruably the worst RF in baseball in '08, and although he would benefit from a move to LF, he still wouldn't be great there either. He isn't the "grindery" player people seem to think he is. Abreu's offensive also appears to be diminishing as his OBP has taken a major hit the past two seasons. He is more athletic than Dunn, and does not strike out as much, but he went 20/100/.370 in '08 which is a far cry from Dunn's numbers. Bobby would have had a hard time finding more than 80 RBIs on just about every team outside of the Yankees. Also, alarming for me anyways is his contract demands (which is what attracts me to Dunn), 3/48 is not a very good deal for an aging Abreu. According to the "experts", your claims about Abreu "for less money" is not correct. I wouldn't be upset if KW inked Bobby, just as long as they believe TCQ can play RF, and Bobby won't be playing CF. Abreu in CF would give me nightmares.

drewcifer
12-20-2008, 08:15 PM
Actually, it's probably a natural decline from the year before, in which he was 25/33.

You serious?

Just stop.

BadBobbyJenks
12-20-2008, 08:31 PM
You serious?

Just stop.

Are you saying Abreu is not declining?

Craig Grebeck
12-20-2008, 08:40 PM
You serious?

Just stop.
I don't really think it's preposterous to state that a 34 year old lost a few steps to the tune of three stolen base attempts.

drewcifer
12-20-2008, 08:58 PM
Are you saying Abreu is not declining?

He's been EXTREMELY solid. But he IS 34 and that is old.

I don't really think it's preposterous to state that a 34 year old lost a few steps to the tune of three stolen base attempts.

You are annoying. 3 bases.

He's an amazing 2 hitter. He nearly had to assume the role a 1 hitter last year. His numbers are great, even for a non-landscape evaulator like you.

Abreu in RF instead of Dye is an UPGRADE. No question. Not saying it's going to happen, or that it should... He's a ****ING fine ball player and much better than just about anything on our roster.

Craig Grebeck
12-20-2008, 09:00 PM
He's been EXTREMELY solid. But he IS 34 and that is old.



You are annoying. 3 bases.

He's an amazing 2 hitter. He nearly had to assume the role a 1 hitter last year. His numbers are great, even for a non-landscape evaulator like you.

Abreu in RF instead of Dye is an UPGRADE. No question. Not saying it's going to happen, or that it should... He's a ****ING fine ball player and much better than just about anything on our roster.
Abreu is an embarrassment defensively in RF, and his core skills (namely strike zone judgment, and the ability to take a walk) are beginning to decline. He was below average on the road last season, and there's no reason to believe he'll be any better in 2009.

Edit: Also, I don't know why it's annoying to cite the fact that his ability to steal bases has declined considerably.

drewcifer
12-20-2008, 09:01 PM
Abreu is an embarrassment defensively in RF, and his core skills (namely strike zone judgment, and the ability to take a walk) are beginning to decline. He was below average on the road last season, and there's no reason to believe he'll be any better in 2009.

How was JD on the road last year, wise ass?

Craig Grebeck
12-20-2008, 09:03 PM
How was JD on the road last year, wise ass?
Not very good. Of course, I'm not worried about Dye, I'm talking about Abreu.

Also, I'll take the opportunity to note Dye's .256 BABIP on the road, compared to Abreu's .332. And yet, Dye put up similar numbers.

Also, any reason for a personal attack?

drewcifer
12-20-2008, 09:08 PM
Not very good. Of course, I'm not worried about Dye, I'm talking about Abreu.

Also, I'll take the opportunity to note Dye's .256 BABIP on the road, compared to Abreu's .332. And yet, Dye put up similar numbers.

Also, any reason for a personal attack?

Abreu hit #2 - everyday. No #1 most of the time. He's a hitter. AND, I'd say more patient than ANYONE we've ever seen at that spot.

What's got your panties curled, sport? "Wise ass"? You already admitted you missed...

Craig Grebeck
12-20-2008, 09:13 PM
Abreu hit #2 - everyday. No #1 most of the time. He's a hitter. AND, I'd say more patient than ANYONE we've ever seen at that spot.

What's got your panties curled, sport? "Wise ass"? You already admitted you missed...
I don't really know what the last sentence fragment is referencing, so I'll ignore it.

Again, what does it matter what place he hit? Is that why he swings at more balls outside the zone than at any point in his career, or has it caused the dramatic decline in his BB%?

Abreu's speed is declining, his defense is declining (if that's possible), and his patience is also declining -- so pleas, why should we sign him?

drewcifer
12-20-2008, 09:24 PM
I don't really know what the last sentence fragment is referencing, so I'll ignore it.

Again, what does it matter what place he hit? Is that why he swings at more balls outside the zone than at any point in his career, or has it caused the dramatic decline in his BB%?

Abreu's speed is declining, his defense is declining (if that's possible), and his patience is also declining -- so pleas, why should we sign him?


Abreu is an upgrade from Dye in almost every way (except power). If you don't get it, I can't help you.

Craig Grebeck
12-20-2008, 09:26 PM
Abreu is an upgrade from Dye in almost every way (except power). If you don't get it, I can't help you.
Well, you completely edited what you originally wrote. I believe it was something about "finding out the lead off hitter stats and ABs," which was fairly incoherent.

I do find it amusing you tell me that I'm out of my element for not watching Yankee games, and then you state...

Abreu hit #2 - everyday. No #1 most of the time. He's a hitter. AND, I'd say more patient than ANYONE we've ever seen at that spot.
He started and hit in the 3 spot in 140 games, and just started 12 games hitting in the 2 hole. How many times did he bat leadoff in 2008?

0

drewcifer
12-20-2008, 09:30 PM
Well, you completely edited what you originally wrote. I believe it was something about "finding out the lead off hitter stats and ABs," which was fairly incoherent.

I do find it amusing you tell me that I'm out of my element for not watching Yankee games, and then you state...


He started and hit in the 3 spot in 140 games, and just started 12 games hitting in the 2 hole. How many times did he bat leadoff in 2008?

0

He hit out of his natural #2 spot all year last year. That was the point you missed.

And, you gonna answer the question or not? Upgrade over Dye in RF? Better for our team?

Craig Grebeck
12-20-2008, 09:34 PM
He hit out of his natural #2 spot all year last year. That was the point you missed.

And, you gonna answer the question or not? Upgrade over Dye in RF? Better for our team?
I'd argue that the third spot is his natural slot in the batting order, as he has started over twelve hundred games there, against only thirty-seven in the two hole. But, who needs facts?

Is he an upgrade over Dye? It depends on what you're looking for. While Abreu has been on a steady decline, Dye has shown success the last few years in line with, if not better than, the rest of his career. I don't really want to give a three-year deal to an aging outfielder who lacks the core skills that once made him a special player, so no, Abreu is not an upgrade. Dye will (hopefully) be out of here after 2009 (and if he is here, he'll DH, I'd imagine).

Craig Grebeck
12-20-2008, 09:36 PM
Also, could you please explain what this is in reference to:

Abreu hit #2 - everyday. No #1 most of the time. He's a hitter. AND, I'd say more patient than ANYONE we've ever seen at that spot.
You said he hit number two, everyday -- what year was that? Then you said number one most of the time -- what year was that?

drewcifer
12-20-2008, 09:40 PM
I'd argue that the third spot is his natural slot in the batting order, as he has started over twelve hundred games there, against only thirty-seven in the two hole. But, who needs facts?

Is he an upgrade over Dye? It depends on what you're looking for. While Abreu has been on a steady decline, Dye has shown success the last few years in line with, if not better than, the rest of his career. I don't really want to give a three-year deal to an aging outfielder who lacks the core skills that once made him a special player, so no, Abreu is not an upgrade. Dye will (hopefully) be out of here after 2009 (and if he is here, he'll DH, I'd imagine).

Terrible post. He would be a perfect #2 here as he did in NY. (Look that up)

What core skills are you talking about him lacking? You're being annoying again. He has OBP, he has AVG, he has power numbers, and he steals bases (at almost 80% thanks to you pointing that out!)

"Core" skill, yourself.

Craig Grebeck
12-20-2008, 09:43 PM
Terrible post. He would be a perfect #2 here as he did in NY. (Look that up)

What core skills are you talking about him lacking? You're being annoying again. He has OBP, he has AVG, he has power numbers, and he steals bases (at almost 80% thanks to you pointing that out!)

"Core" skill, yourself.
You called it his natural spot, citing that for a drop in his value -- despite the fact that he batted in the three hole throughout his career.

Well, he no longer has the speed he once had, and he swings at many more balls out of the strike zone, and his walk rate has declined considerably. These days, his offense is merely adequate for a corner outfielder. Considering his horrendous defense, I don't want any part of him. I don't see why that's so baffling, especially when one considers the money and years we'd be committing to him.

Also, he hasn't stolen bases at 80% since 2006.

drewcifer
12-20-2008, 09:51 PM
You called it his natural spot, citing that for a drop in his value -- despite the fact that he batted in the three hole throughout his career.

Well, he no longer has the speed he once had, and he swings at many more balls out of the strike zone, and his walk rate has declined considerably. These days, his offense is merely adequate for a corner outfielder. Considering his horrendous defense, I don't want any part of him. I don't see why that's so baffling, especially when one considers the money and years we'd be committing to him.

Also, he hasn't stolen bases at 80% since 2006.

I said nearly and that's a far cry higher than anyone else we have. He would be a great #2. You can't deny it.

He would fit NATURALLY at #2. He did in NY when they had a leadoff and power at 3-5. We have that, too. You know I'm right, why are you arguing???!?!?!! And what horrendous defense are we going to endure over JD????

And what $ and years? 2/25????

*Edit - Basestealing at 75% + his whole life.

Craig Grebeck
12-20-2008, 09:58 PM
I said nearly and that's a far cry higher than anyone else we have. He would be a great #2. You can't deny it.

He would fit NATURALLY at #2. He did in NY when they had a leadoff and power at 3-5. We have that, too. You know I'm right, why are you arguing???!?!?!! And what horrendous defense are we going to endure over JD????

And what $ and years? 2/25????

*Edit - Basestealing at 75% + his whole life.
Abreu hit #2 - everyday. No #1 most of the time. He's a hitter. AND, I'd say more patient than ANYONE we've ever seen at that spot.

Just one of the many false statements you've made.

I don't believe two seasons is a wise commitment. Abreu's been declining, as I've stated numerous times, and there's no reason to believe he'll experience a spike in production.

Citing his career base-stealing numbers is a joke; Abreu's stolen base numbers have been trending downward, along with his success rate.

drewcifer
12-20-2008, 10:22 PM
Just one of the many false statements you've made.

I don't believe two seasons is a wise commitment. Abreu's been declining, as I've stated numerous times, and there's no reason to believe he'll experience a spike in production.

Citing his career base-stealing numbers is a joke; Abreu's stolen base numbers have been trending downward, along with his success rate.

YOU are famous for citing CAREER numbers in arguments!

whatever - he'd be great to have. And I hate you.

cards press box
12-20-2008, 10:28 PM
Dye has been a stalwart in the middle of the Sox lineup since he arrived here in 2005. He has essentially matched the production that his contemporary right fielder, Magglio Ordonez, provided in Detroit during the same time period. In some years -- like 2005 -- Dye outproduced Ordonez. If Dye plays for the White Sox in 2009, I'm sure he'll be one of the Sox' better players.

If, on the other hand, the Sox deal Dye for propsects or perhaps a starting pitcher or a leadoff man and then the Sox sign Bobby Abreu as a free agent to a contract similar or even less than the current Dye contract, then the Sox would come out ahead on the deal. Abreu is a left handed hitter and does provide some left-handed balance to the Sox batting order. Abreu would likely play LF for the Sox with Quentin moving to his natural position in RF.

Abreu, Dye and Ordonez are all contemporaries and have had somewhat similar careers. At this point, all three seem to be declining at the same rate. If the Sox replace Dye with Abreu at equal (or lesser) price and add additional player(s) to boot, that sounds like a good deal.

whitesox901
12-20-2008, 10:38 PM
Dye has been a stalwart in the middle of the Sox lineup since he arrived here in 2005. He has essentially matched the production that his contemporary right fielder, Magglio Ordonez, provided in Detroit during the same time period. In some years -- like 2005 -- Dye outproduced Ordonez. If Dye plays for the White Sox in 2009, I'm sure he'll be one of the Sox' better players.

If, on the other hand, the Sox deal Dye for propsects or perhaps a starting pitcher or a leadoff man and then the Sox sign Bobby Abreu as a free agent to a contract similar or even less than the current Dye contract, then the Sox would come out ahead on the deal. Abreu is a left handed hitter and does provide some left-handed balance to the Sox batting order. Abreu would likely play LF for the Sox with Quentin moving to his natural position in RF.

Abreu, Dye and Ordonez are all contemporaries and have had somewhat similar careers. At this point, all three seem to be declining at the same rate. If the Sox replace Dye with Abreu at equal (or lesser) price and add additional player(s) to boot, that sounds like a good deal.

Sounds good to me

Craig Grebeck
12-20-2008, 11:17 PM
YOU are famous for citing CAREER numbers in arguments!

whatever - he'd be great to have. And I hate you.
Please, that's a joke. I cite trends, I don't cite someone's composite career numbers unless it's a case of comparing players across eras.

Also, learn how to tone down the personal attacks.

WhiteSoxFan84
12-21-2008, 12:08 AM
Adam Dunn? No thanks.

Why not just extend Konerko, Thome or Dye? Dunn is just what the Sox are trying to get rid of. He's a poor defender, slow, strikes out a lot and is NOT a situational hitter - besides being very expensive. Bad idea.

They were would be better served by waiting for Brandon Allen to take over 1B in 2010.

Because Dye and Konerko are righties. Dye and Thome's career are almost over. I'd take Dunn over all 3 of them right now.

WhiteSoxFan84
12-21-2008, 12:11 AM
He's been EXTREMELY solid. But he IS 34 and that is old.



You are annoying. 3 bases.

He's an amazing 2 hitter. He nearly had to assume the role a 1 hitter last year. His numbers are great, even for a non-landscape evaulator like you.

Abreu in RF instead of Dye is an UPGRADE. No question. Not saying it's going to happen, or that it should... He's a ****ING fine ball player and much better than just about anything on our roster.


looool, i love it. yeh, he is. if we could vote one poster off of WSI.... :redneck

Craig Grebeck
12-21-2008, 12:15 AM
Because Dye and Konerko are righties. Dye and Thome's career are almost over. I'd take Dunn over all 3 of them right now.
For 2009, I think you'd be crazy to take Dunn over Dye.

looool, i love it. yeh, he is. if we could vote one poster off of WSI.... :redneck
I know, it must be super annoying for you guys to be proven wrong so often.

BadBobbyJenks
12-21-2008, 12:23 AM
Abreu hit #2 - everyday. No #1 most of the time. He's a hitter. AND, I'd say more patient than ANYONE we've ever seen at that spot.


I like Craig am still waiting for an explanation for this.

whitesox901
12-21-2008, 12:25 AM
looool, i love it. yeh, he is. if we could vote one poster off of WSI.... :redneck

Munchman? :redneck

WhiteSoxFan84
12-21-2008, 12:38 AM
For 2009, I think you'd be crazy to take Dunn over Dye.


I know, it must be super annoying for you guys to be proven wrong so often.

For the part not in bold, call me crazy.
For the part in bold, nope. Guess again. You just.... drewcifer said it simply but it was the best, you're annoying. It's not about being right or wrong. It's the way you approach people and the way you say (or the way they are read) things. I already talked to you about it and you decided to change nothing. I'm a nobody so I'm not saying "why didn't you listen to me?! :angry:" but now more people are noticing what I notice.

You just... think your OPINION is always the right one even though opinions are not FACTS. And truthfully, that is very ****ing annoying. I have people disagree with me ALL the time. I don't talk down to them or act like an ass the way you do by quoting their opinion and saying "pass" or "terrible idea" or stupid **** like that. Just state your opinion, let others state their opinions, and that's that. If you knew half as much as you THINK you do, you'd be getting involved in the game somehow.

And I'll give you another thing to consider, remember, for the most part this message board is made up of regular baseball fans that don't value OPS, OBP, POS, SOB, etc., as much as you do. Does it make them wrong? To you, apparently it does.

Craig Grebeck
12-21-2008, 01:14 AM
For the part not in bold, call me crazy.
For the part in bold, nope. Guess again. You just.... drewcifer said it simply but it was the best, you're annoying. It's not about being right or wrong. It's the way you approach people and the way you say (or the way they are read) things. I already talked to you about it and you decided to change nothing. I'm a nobody so I'm not saying "why didn't you listen to me?! :angry:" but now more people are noticing what I notice.

You just... think your OPINION is always the right one even though opinions are not FACTS. And truthfully, that is very ****ing annoying. I have people disagree with me ALL the time. I don't talk down to them or act like an ass the way you do by quoting their opinion and saying "pass" or "terrible idea" or stupid **** like that. Just state your opinion, let others state their opinions, and that's that. If you knew half as much as you THINK you do, you'd be getting involved in the game somehow.

And I'll give you another thing to consider, remember, for the most part this message board is made up of regular baseball fans that don't value OPS, OBP, POS, SOB, etc., as much as you do. Does it make them wrong? To you, apparently it does.
Perhaps you should re-read the thread. Drewcifer called me annoying because I noted the natural decline in Abreu's stolen base success from 2007-08. He continued to ridicule me for not watching enough Yankee games, and then blatantly made false statements.

I am stating my opinions, that is part of debating. I will often cite facts, that often make other's opinions seem less, shall we say, based on logic. Hell, in this thread I didn't even use any sabermetric anything, just stuff that can easily be found in a two second Google search.

I have no doubt that I proved drewcifer wrong, mainly because he stated (albeit in a murky manner) that Abreu "hit # 2 - everyday...no # 1 most of the time." I don't even remember why you seem to hate me so much, nor do I really care.

Nellie_Fox
12-21-2008, 01:17 AM
For the part not in bold, call me crazy.
For the part in bold, nope. Guess again. You just.... drewcifer said it simply but it was the best, you're annoying. It's not about being right or wrong. It's the way you approach people and the way you say (or the way they are read) things. I already talked to you about it and you decided to change nothing. I'm a nobody so I'm not saying "why didn't you listen to me?! :angry:" but now more people are noticing what I notice.

You just... think your OPINION is always the right one even though opinions are not FACTS. And truthfully, that is very ****ing annoying. I have people disagree with me ALL the time. I don't talk down to them or act like an ass the way you do by quoting their opinion and saying "pass" or "terrible idea" or stupid **** like that. Just state your opinion, let others state their opinions, and that's that. If you knew half as much as you THINK you do, you'd be getting involved in the game somehow.

And I'll give you another thing to consider, remember, for the most part this message board is made up of regular baseball fans that don't value OPS, OBP, POS, SOB, etc., as much as you do. Does it make them wrong? To you, apparently it does.

Perhaps you should re-read the thread. Drewcifer called me annoying because I noted the natural decline in Abreu's stolen base success from 2007-08. He continued to ridicule me for not watching enough Yankee games, and then blatantly made false statements.

I am stating my opinions, that is part of debating. I will often cite facts, that often make other's opinions seem less, shall we say, based on logic. Hell, in this thread I didn't even use any sabermetric anything, just stuff that can easily be found in a two second Google search.

I have no doubt that I proved drewcifer wrong, mainly because he stated (albeit in a murky manner) that Abreu "hit # 2 - everyday...no # 1 most of the time." I don't even remember why you seem to hate me so much, nor do I really care.You guys are approaching "making it personal," so let it go.

WhiteSoxFan84
12-21-2008, 01:29 AM
You guys are approaching "making it personal," so let it go.

For your's and the other mods' sakes I already was planning on making that my last response concerning what was being discussed.

soxlug
12-21-2008, 02:58 AM
Saw where Gammons mentioned http://sports.espn.go.com/espn/blog/index?entryID=3783590&name=gammons_peter Dye to Cincy, Votto to Anaheim, Figgins to White Sox. I don't think the Reds are getting enough for a young guy who still has a pretty good upside. If this were to go down I think the Sox would make a run at Abreu unless they would want Anderson in right? But if they did get Abreu and Figgins my lineup is.

1. Figgins CF
2. Abreu RF
3. Quentin LF
4. Thome DH
5. Konerko 1B
6. Alexei SS
7. Pierzynski C
8. Fields 3B
9. Getz 2B

Figgins has not played a CF in the last two years but hey Swisher played CF for us I am sure Figgins could although I like Anderson defensively but what a nice lineup Speed, Power, good obp, and some upside.

russ99
12-21-2008, 09:56 AM
Saw where Gammons mentioned http://sports.espn.go.com/espn/blog/index?entryID=3783590&name=gammons_peter Dye to Cincy, Votto to Anaheim, Figgins to White Sox. I don't think the Reds are getting enough for a young guy who still has a pretty good upside. If this were to go down I think the Sox would make a run at Abreu unless they would want Anderson in right? But if they did get Abreu and Figgins my lineup is.

1. Figgins CF
2. Abreu RF
3. Quentin LF
4. Thome DH
5. Konerko 1B
6. Alexei SS
7. Pierzynski C
8. Fields 3B
9. Getz 2B

Figgins has not played a CF in the last two years but hey Swisher played CF for us I am sure Figgins could although I like Anderson defensively but what a nice lineup Speed, Power, good obp, and some upside.

I'd go for it, especially if KW threw in a piece or two and got pitching in the deal as well, but I just don't see the Reds giving up on Votto.

I see Figgins at 3B and 2B in that lineup, with Fields and Getz platooning for 1 spot. Then Owens/Anderson would be in CF.

thedudeabides
12-21-2008, 10:17 AM
Saw where Gammons mentioned http://sports.espn.go.com/espn/blog/index?entryID=3783590&name=gammons_peter Dye to Cincy, Votto to Anaheim, Figgins to White Sox. I don't think the Reds are getting enough for a young guy who still has a pretty good upside. If this were to go down I think the Sox would make a run at Abreu unless they would want Anderson in right? But if they did get Abreu and Figgins my lineup is.

1. Figgins CF
2. Abreu RF
3. Quentin LF
4. Thome DH
5. Konerko 1B
6. Alexei SS
7. Pierzynski C
8. Fields 3B
9. Getz 2B

Figgins has not played a CF in the last two years but hey Swisher played CF for us I am sure Figgins could although I like Anderson defensively but what a nice lineup Speed, Power, good obp, and some upside.

That rumor makes zero sense. There's no way I'm giving up Dye for Figgins, and the Reds are not trading Votto to take on an aging player and salary.

russ99
12-21-2008, 10:27 AM
That rumor makes zero sense. There's no way I'm giving up Dye for Figgins, and the Reds are not trading Votto to take on an aging player and salary.

Dye for Figgins makes a lot more sense than Dye for Homer Bailey. They're both 2 years from FA, and relatively similar in value, and Figgins fills a big hole for the Sox. Maybe Jermaine has a bit less value than Figgins due to his age, but a steady power bat like his always has a high trade value. And this is also assuming the Sox sign Abreu to replace Dye.

You are right, though. It doesn't make sense for the Reds, unless we throw in another piece. They wanted Anderson before....

Maybe Atlanta has a piece the Angels want.

Preferably, I'd do Konerko for Figgins, but who knows if the Angels want him, and PK's value is low, especially with his NTC.

Craig Grebeck
12-21-2008, 10:33 AM
Dye for Figgins makes a lot more sense than Dye for Homer Bailey.
No, it really doesn't. If we're going to trade Dye, I'd rather do it for a pitcher that will be both cost-controlled and team-controlled for the foreseeable future. In Figgins, we'd acquire a middling hitter who will be entering free agency soon. He's coming off a poor year (compared to his previous work) and hasn't played over 116 games since 2006.

LoveYourSuit
12-21-2008, 12:50 PM
No, it really doesn't. If we're going to trade Dye, I'd rather do it for a pitcher that will be both cost-controlled and team-controlled for the foreseeable future. In Figgins, we'd acquire a middling hitter who will be entering free agency soon. He's coming off a poor year (compared to his previous work) and hasn't played over 116 games since 2006.

I think the last thing the Sox need is another pitching project.

If they trade Dye, they need something that will help the 2009 compete, I still don't think Figgins is enough straight for Dye. Dye is a potential MVP.

BadBobbyJenks
12-21-2008, 01:03 PM
IF the Reds want to trade Votto and we want to part with Dye, why on earth would we decide to take Figgins instead?

NLaloosh
12-21-2008, 02:08 PM
Since you started spewing garbage here a few months ago, the last argument I wanted to get into with you was one about adding another one tool, offensive slugger... :D: Especially, with me on the side of the slugger, but you have drawn me in.

The 19 stolen bases in '02 was to demonstrate the fact that he will not clog the bases, not stating that he is going to be a base stealer this year. Sorry that was too hard for you to understand.

Your original argument that I responded to was: Why sign Dunn when you can extend PK or Thome?

Which I pointed out is incorrect because in fact they are in different leagues from each other. Dunn is 10X more consistent, younger, and maybe even cheaper.

And you respond with your statement that Dunn isn't a good baseball player (I assume you mean fundamentally sound, grinder style player?), and that you would rather someone else.

I'd much rather have Texeira, Arod, Willy Mays, etc. Not sure how Bobby Abreu has anything to do with the my point that apparently Adam Dunn and his automatic 40/100/.385 is extremely underrated in the FA market?

I don't like Dunn in LF, and unless he can be at least an average first baseman I don't like him there either; But I love his value at 4yrs/$50,000,000, even if he needs to DH in 2010. I've also seen 3/36 predicted. I'd pencil him in as your 2009 AL MVP if he came to the Cell.

I'll oblige your Abreu comparison. Bobby was agruably the worst RF in baseball in '08, and although he would benefit from a move to LF, he still wouldn't be great there either. He isn't the "grindery" player people seem to think he is. Abreu's offensive also appears to be diminishing as his OBP has taken a major hit the past two seasons. He is more athletic than Dunn, and does not strike out as much, but he went 20/100/.370 in '08 which is a far cry from Dunn's numbers. Bobby would have had a hard time finding more than 80 RBIs on just about every team outside of the Yankees. Also, alarming for me anyways is his contract demands (which is what attracts me to Dunn), 3/48 is not a very good deal for an aging Abreu. According to the "experts", your claims about Abreu "for less money" is not correct. I wouldn't be upset if KW inked Bobby, just as long as they believe TCQ can play RF, and Bobby won't be playing CF. Abreu in CF would give me nightmares.

Hey, there's no argument. You're so completely wrong in so many ways that it's just laughable. There is no link to Dunn and the White Sox and there won't be.

You know why? Because Kenny and everyone else,except you, knows that it would be a stupid move.

But, there are links to Abreu and the White Sox and Kenny and Ozzie would love to have him. You know why? Because he would help the Sox a lot - and a lot more than Adam Dunn.

Lukin13
12-21-2008, 02:15 PM
Hey, there's no argument.


There isn't an argument because you cannot think of anything to refute my points.

What is laughable?

Also, I never stated there was a link between Dunn and the Sox; but if the rumored $$$ is true, there definitely should be.

Great post.

WhiteSoxFan84
12-21-2008, 02:39 PM
Just going to chime in my 2 cents...

Dunn >> Abreu (younger, a lot more power)
Dunn >> Dye (younger, left-handed, a little more power)
Dunn >>> PK (younger, left-handed, more power)
Dunn >>>> Thome (a lot younger, a little more power)

This is all considering Dunn plays LF, 1B, or DH, preferably DH.

SoxNation05
12-21-2008, 02:55 PM
IF the Reds want to trade Votto and we want to part with Dye, why on earth would we decide to take Figgins instead?
Wow, thank you. I now know WSI has some intelligence.

A. Cavatica
12-21-2008, 04:36 PM
I assume it wouldn't just be Dye for Figgins; it would be Dye for Figgins and a much better player than Figgins. Figgins can't carry Dye's jock.

btrain929
12-21-2008, 05:11 PM
I assume it wouldn't just be Dye for Figgins; it would be Dye for Figgins and a much better player than Figgins. Figgins can't carry Dye's jock.

Let's not get crazy, now. If we deal with LA, Figgins would be the best player coming over, with maybe 1 or 2 other lesser players/prospects. Keep in mind Dye IS 35 with below average defense and only 1 year left on his contract (and an option).

TheOldRoman
12-21-2008, 05:54 PM
Just going to chime in my 2 cents...

Dunn >> Abreu (younger, a lot more power)
Dunn >> Dye (younger, left-handed, a little more power)
Dunn >>> PK (younger, left-handed, more power)
Dunn >>>> Thome (a lot younger, a little more power)

This is all considering Dunn plays LF, 1B, or DH, preferably DH.
I disagree with every one of those.

Craig Grebeck
12-21-2008, 06:02 PM
I disagree with every one of those.
I'm not really sure if it matters whether or not he's better than either Dye, Thome, or Konerko. Do I want Dunn for three years? Probably not -- mainly because he has "old-player skills" which will make his peak shorter and earlier. His decline will be sharper and occur at a much younger age than his peers.

TheOldRoman
12-21-2008, 06:29 PM
I'm not really sure if it matters whether or not he's better than either Dye, Thome, or Konerko. Do I want Dunn for three years? Probably not -- mainly because he has "old-player skills" which will make his peak shorter and earlier. His decline will be sharper and occur at a much younger age than his peers.
I think someone said on here that he is almost equal to Thome at the current stage of his career (a few more homers, much lower average), and that is pretty accurate. If people were running Thome and Konerko out of town last year, how in the world would they feel watching Dunn getting something like $75 million over 5 years to hit .235? We need some power for the future (considering all of Thome, Dye and Konerko will be gone in two years), but we don't need that kind. I have heard from some people who think Kenny is going to sign Dunn to replace Thome and stick him in left for a year. I just don't see it. Looking at KW's recent moves, I think he would much rather have a guy hitting .280 with 30 homers than .240 with 40 homers.

russ99
12-21-2008, 06:29 PM
I'm not really sure if it matters whether or not he's better than either Dye, Thome, or Konerko. Do I want Dunn for three years? Probably not -- mainly because he has "old-player skills" which will make his peak shorter and earlier. His decline will be sharper and occur at a much younger age than his peers.

Sheesh, Adam Dunn is the worst idea of all, especially if we deal Dye.

He's just like Thome and Konerko: strikes out tons, has a low average, can't run, can't play defense and we'd have to pay top dollar for a guy who can pretty much only hit homers.

He's perfect for the Cubs, horrible for us. The only way I see him coming to the Sox is if both Thome and Konerko are gone.

I'd take Abreu anyday, despite the age difference.

Despite the Figgins hate earlier on, he's a game changer in a position we need, albeit-if he stays healthy. I'd love to see us deal Konerko and a prospect for Figgins and one of the Angels' many extra pitchers...

Frater Perdurabo
12-21-2008, 06:42 PM
I'd love to see us deal Konerko and a prospect for Figgins and one of the Angels' many extra pitchers...

That sounds good to me!

soxrepublican
12-21-2008, 07:16 PM
That sounds good to me!

Oh yeah! Seriously, Paulie is the best defencive firstbaseman I have ever seen, and is the face of the franchise. Like it or not, he is here to stay.

WhiteSoxFan84
12-21-2008, 07:44 PM
Oh yeah! Seriously, Paulie is the best defencive firstbaseman I have ever seen, and is the face of the franchise. Like it or not, he is here to stay.

What world do you live in? Paulie is the best defenSive first baseman you have ever seen? Then you must not have seen ANY other first baseman. He's not the worst, but no way in hell is he the best.

And holy use of the wrong color to show sarcasm Batman!

WhiteSoxFan84
12-21-2008, 07:46 PM
I disagree with every one of those.

Of course you would. You're old. And a Roman!

All kidding aside, you're entitled to your own opinion. I just believe Dunn could put up the same numbers that Thome, Konerko, and Dye are capable of putting up, if not better. And he's younger than all of them.

Craig Grebeck
12-21-2008, 08:01 PM
Of course you would. You're old. And a Roman!

All kidding aside, you're entitled to your own opinion. I just believe Dunn could put up the same numbers that Thome, Konerko, and Dye are capable of putting up, if not better. And he's younger than all of them.
Do you believe he can out-produce the 2008 version of Dye, or the 2009 one? Obviously, there's no way to judge whether or not Dye will play well in 2009, but I'd imagine he'll be better than Dunn. I don't feel like committing money to Dunn would be a sensible use of our increasingly finite resources, as he very well could implode in a Swisher circa 2008 way.

WhiteSoxFan84
12-21-2008, 08:25 PM
Do you believe he can out-produce the 2008 version of Dye, or the 2009 one? Obviously, there's no way to judge whether or not Dye will play well in 2009, but I'd imagine he'll be better than Dunn. I don't feel like committing money to Dunn would be a sensible use of our increasingly finite resources, as he very well could implode in a Swisher circa 2008 way.

I don't know to be honest. Dye may very well end up being just as productive in 2009 as he was in 2008. Or he may begin to decline.

With Dunn, he's been very steady (almost identical numbers) the last 4 or 5 seasons. He's 28 so there are no worries of a decline. The GA Ballpark is hitter friendly, so it probably helped his numbers, but USCF is just as hitter friendly and even more so for lefties. That means his home run total will not be negatively impacted by a change of scenery. Of course he'll continue to strikeout a lot but he'll also continue to get on-base at a very solid clip.

I wouldn't want Dunn if we still have Dye, Konerko, and Thome. I'd rather have Dunn and 2 of the other 3 guys. I'd prefer Dunn and just ONE of those 3 if I had to choose.

Just a look at our potential 3-7 IF we were to acquire Dunn and without Dye...
Quentin/Dunn/Thome/Konerko/AJ (you can flip that lineup around a lot of different ways)
or
Quentin/Thome/Dye/Konerko/AJ

I just see the first combination being a little more dangerous with potential (if they all stay healthy and perform at or above career marks) to be a lot more dangerous.

As for the part in bold, apples to oranges. You're smarter than that CB. Don't dumb yourself down just for the sake of trying to make Dunn look bad.

Craig Grebeck
12-21-2008, 08:28 PM
I don't know to be honest. Dye may very well end up being just as productive in 2009 as he was in 2008. Or he may begin to decline.

With Dunn, he's been very steady (almost identical numbers) the last 4 or 5 seasons. He's 28 so there are no worries of a decline. The GA Ballpark is hitter friendly, so it probably helped his numbers, but USCF is just as hitter friendly and even more so for lefties. That means his home run total will not be negatively impacted by a change of scenery. Of course he'll continue to strikeout a lot but he'll also continue to get on-base at a very solid clip.

I wouldn't want Dunn if we still have Dye, Konerko, and Thome. I'd rather have Dunn and 2 of the other 3 guys. I'd prefer Dunn and just ONE of those 3 if I had to choose.

Just a look at our potential 3-7 IF we were to acquire Dunn and without Dye...
Quentin/Dunn/Thome/Konerko/AJ (you can flip that lineup around a lot of different ways)
or
Quentin/Thome/Dye/Konerko/AJ

I just see the first combination being a little more dangerous with potential (if they all stay healthy and perform at or above career marks) to be a lot more dangerous.
Fair enough, although I disagree with the notion that we shouldn't fear a decline with Dunn. Players with his skills break down much earlier.

Frater Perdurabo
12-22-2008, 07:14 AM
Oh yeah! Seriously, Paulie is the best defencive firstbaseman I have ever seen, and is the face of the franchise. Like it or not, he is here to stay.

You're right. I need to have more respect for his slick turning of the all-too-frequent 3-6-3 DP. I think the Sox need to keep him around as an infield coach after he retires; he had the genius to recognize that Royce "The Choice" Clayton is the greatest defense shortstop with whom he has had the privilege of playing. He's also great with the media, too, so perhaps he ought to be the manager when Ozzie retires.

:rolleyes:

russ99
12-22-2008, 10:53 AM
Paulie's pretty decent in the field, but not gold glove material.

It's his streaky, pouty bat with the strikeouts, GIDPs and the 400 foot infield popouts I could live without.

Magglio was the face of the franchise and biggest fan fave before Konerko, and we got along just fine after he left.

The only reasons Paul is still here is his big contract, his NTC and his rock bottom trade value.

CashMan
12-22-2008, 12:03 PM
I don't know to be honest. Dye may very well end up being just as productive in 2009 as he was in 2008. Or he may begin to decline.

With Dunn, he's been very steady (almost identical numbers) the last 4 or 5 seasons. He's 28 so there are no worries of a decline. The GA Ballpark is hitter friendly, so it probably helped his numbers, but USCF is just as hitter friendly and even more so for lefties. That means his home run total will not be negatively impacted by a change of scenery. Of course he'll continue to strikeout a lot but he'll also continue to get on-base at a very solid clip.

I wouldn't want Dunn if we still have Dye, Konerko, and Thome. I'd rather have Dunn and 2 of the other 3 guys. I'd prefer Dunn and just ONE of those 3 if I had to choose.

Just a look at our potential 3-7 IF we were to acquire Dunn and without Dye...
Quentin/Dunn/Thome/Konerko/AJ (you can flip that lineup around a lot of different ways)
or
Quentin/Thome/Dye/Konerko/AJ

I just see the first combination being a little more dangerous with potential (if they all stay healthy and perform at or above career marks) to be a lot more dangerous.

As for the part in bold, apples to oranges. You're smarter than that CB. Don't dumb yourself down just for the sake of trying to make Dunn look bad.



What is the lovefest with Dunn? I know he hits 40hrs but he hits like .240, unless he walks like 150 times, no thanks. Kenny is not going to go out and spend big money on a guy like that. If, Thome wasn't with the club, then maybe.

mzh
12-22-2008, 12:04 PM
Paulie's pretty decent in the field, but not gold glove material.

It's his streaky, pouty bat with the strikeouts, GIDPs and the 400 foot infield popouts I could live without.

Magglio was the face of the franchise and biggest fan fave before Konerko, and we got along just fine after he left.

The only reasons Paul is still here is his big contract, his NTC and his rock bottom trade value.

I can agree and disagree with that.

I think the NTC is the reason that there haven't been very many trade offers/rumors about him, as he has said there are only two teams he will accept a trade to.

A big contract didn't stop Texas from unloading A-Rod, or Boston sending off Manny, or Atlanta sending off Mark Texeira for who? Casey Kotchman. I do admit that those were different circumstances, though.

I agree that Paulie has horrible trade value, but after the 2003 season, which was statistically worse that 2008, he went sky high and was nearly traded to the Dodgers. Again, I admit that he is 5 years older than he was 5 years ago, but 32 is not particularly old. I suppose he could go the way of Andruw Jones and hit .150, but after the way Paul played in August and September, I am optimistic. Here are his stats from April-July, month by month: .222, 5, 17. .191, 1, 5. .215, 2, 6. .209, 1, 5. His August-September #'s: .333, 4, 12. .260, 9, 15.

Not tremendous, but he is being paid for: 9 HR's and 15 RBI a month. He can do that, His value goes up again.

SBSoxFan
12-22-2008, 12:10 PM
What is the lovefest with Dunn? I know he hits 40hrs but he hits like .240, unless he walks like 150 times, no thanks. Kenny is not going to go out and spend big money on a guy like that. If, Thome wasn't with the club, then maybe.

He does.

I can agree and disagree with that.

I think the NTC is the reason that there haven't been very many trade offers/rumors about him, as he has said there are only two teams he will accept a trade to.

A big contract didn't stop Texas from unloading A-Rod, or Boston sending off Manny, or Atlanta sending off Mark Texeira for who? Casey Kotchman. I do admit that those were different circumstances, though.

I agree that Paulie has horrible trade value, but after the 2003 season, which was statistically worse that 2008, he went sky high and was nearly traded to the Dodgers. Again, I admit that he is 5 years older than he was 5 years ago, but 32 is not particularly old. I suppose he could go the way of Andruw Jones and hit .150, but after the way Paul played in August and September, I am optimistic. Here are his stats from April-July, month by month: .222, 5, 17. .191, 1, 5. .215, 2, 6. .209, 1, 5. His August-September #'s: .333, 4, 12. .260, 9, 15.

Not tremendous, but he is being paid for: 9 HR's and 15 RBI a month. He can do that, His value goes up again.

When did Tim McCarver start posting here?

Tekijawa
12-22-2008, 12:16 PM
I agree that Paulie has horrible trade value, but after the 2003 season, which was statistically worse that 2008, he went sky high and was nearly traded to the Dodgers. Again, I admit that he is 5 years older than he was 5 years ago, but 32 is not particularly old. I suppose he could go the way of Andruw Jones and hit .150, but after the way Paul played in August and September, I am optimistic. Here are his stats from April-July, month by month: .222, 5, 17. .191, 1, 5. .215, 2, 6. .209, 1, 5. His August-September #'s: .333, 4, 12. .260, 9, 15.

Not tremendous, but he is being paid for: 9 HR's and 15 RBI a month. He can do that, His value goes up again.

Look at Frank Thomas's numbers after her turned 32... if that's how the "face of the team's" numbers decline then we're in for one bad season next year!

CashMan
12-22-2008, 12:25 PM
He does.



2004-108
2005-114
2006-112
2007-101
2008-122

Yeah.....not 150 times. IF he walked 150 times and hit .240 while putting up 40-100, I could live with that.

mzh
12-22-2008, 12:31 PM
Look at Frank Thomas's numbers after her turned 32... if that's how the "face of the team's" numbers decline then we're in for one bad season next year!

The year he turned 32, he finished 2nd in MVP balloting. He got hurt a few years, but the years he wasn't hurt? He has also hit 43, 28, 42, 39, and 26 Homers, not to mention 18 in 76 games one year, and 12 in a month in 05. He has also driven in a combined 624 runs in those years. Injuries killed it all off, but isn't that what happened to Maggs too?

WhiteSoxFan84
12-22-2008, 01:01 PM
2004-108
2005-114
2006-112
2007-101
2008-122

Yeah.....not 150 times. IF he walked 150 times and hit .240 while putting up 40-100, I could live with that.

His OBP has been consistently around .380 for the last 5 years while averaging 41+ HRs and 100+ RBIs, on teams that primarily sucked.

Zisk77
12-22-2008, 01:23 PM
His OBP has been consistently around .380 for the last 5 years while averaging 41+ HRs and 100+ RBIs, on teams that primarily sucked.


Which is why his OBP is so high, if he had good players around him they'd pitch to him.

CashMan
12-22-2008, 01:29 PM
His OBP has been consistently around .380 for the last 5 years while averaging 41+ HRs and 100+ RBIs, on teams that primarily sucked.


Take the + off, he avgs 40/100, and bats .240. I don't see batting .240 walking 100 times and striking out 150 times worth $10+ mill per year.

NLaloosh
12-22-2008, 01:53 PM
Yeah, Adam Dunn just isn't a very good baseball player and he's a horrible fit for the White Sox. Furthermore, the Sox have no interest in him.

Abreu, however, does interest the Sox. As he should. I think it would be great to trade Dye for a really good young player or two and then sign Abreu to a 2 yr. deal very similar to Dye's deal. Whether they could get him for that is unknown at this point.

The Sox need a veteran for 1 more spot in the lineup. They can't have Anderson, Owens, Fields and Getz/Lillibridge taking up 4 spots. That's 4 question marks in the lineup. And, Owens is probably the biggest question mark. Abreu could bat leadoff and remedy that.

We'll see. I would say that it won't happen except for the possibility of Ozzie's connection here. But, the market will determine what happens. I'm sure the Sox won't go 3/$ 45 for Abreu and I don't blame them but 2/$ 24 would be fine, I think.

I'm beginning to doubtvery much that anyone other than Dye gets moved this winter. I think Konerko, Thome and Jenks are staying.

russ99
12-22-2008, 02:28 PM
Yeah, Adam Dunn just isn't a very good baseball player and he's a horrible fit for the White Sox. Furthermore, the Sox have no interest in him.

Abreu, however, does interest the Sox. As he should. I think it would be great to trade Dye for a really good young player or two and then sign Abreu to a 2 yr. deal very similar to Dye's deal. Whether they could get him for that is unknown at this point.

The Sox need a veteran for 1 more spot in the lineup. They can't have Anderson, Owens, Fields and Getz/Lillibridge taking up 4 spots. That's 4 question marks in the lineup. And, Owens is probably the biggest question mark. Abreu could bat leadoff and remedy that.

We'll see. I would say that it won't happen except for the possibility of Ozzie's connection here. But, the market will determine what happens. I'm sure the Sox won't go 3/$ 45 for Abreu and I don't blame them but 2/$ 24 would be fine, I think.

I'm beginning to doubtvery much that anyone other than Dye gets moved this winter. I think Konerko, Thome and Jenks are staying.

Abreu would replace Dye and bat #2 or #3 in the lineup. He's not a leadoff hitter and would not replace Owens.

Which is why I like Figgins better.

Thome's not going anywhere. This is likely his last season and why not wrap it up close to home.

CWSpalehoseCWS
12-22-2008, 02:32 PM
Abreu would replace Dye and bat #2 or #3 in the lineup. He's not a leadoff hitter and would not replace Owens.

Which is why I like Figgins better.

Thome's not going anywhere. This is likely his last season and why not wrap it up close to home.

I don't know about Thome being done after '09. Maybe done with us, but if he hits 30+ HR's next season, he might want to try for 600. And if that's the case, I wouldn't mind seeing him come back to the Sox to try it.

CashMan
12-22-2008, 02:34 PM
I don't know about Thome being done after '09. Maybe done with us, but if he hits 30+ HR's next season, he might want to try for 600.


He has to be done with us. You figure, Kenny wants to get younger more athletic, Thomas either neither of those, and his contract is up.

soxinem1
12-22-2008, 02:42 PM
The Sox need a veteran for 1 more spot in the lineup. They can't have Anderson, Owens, Fields and Getz/Lillibridge taking up 4 spots. That's 4 question marks in the lineup. And, Owens is probably the biggest question mark. Abreu could bat leadoff and remedy that.

http://blog.nbc.com/ross_blog/RD%20Daria%20umm%20no.jpg

mzh
12-22-2008, 02:43 PM
He has to be done with us. You figure, Kenny wants to get younger more athletic

And if you ask me, he is on the right track. As much as I love Jim Thome, and PK and JD for that matter, I would rather lose those guys (maybe with the exception of JD) and pick up a bunch of really young guys who we can develop. That has already started with Floyd and Danks. That is also why we are not wanting Adam Dunn(actually, is anyone on this thread for getting Dunn?). In 2000 and 2001, the Sox were a young team (excluding Jose Canseco and David Wells), with Mark Beuhrle, Paul Konerko, Joe Crede, Carlos Lee, and Magglio Ordonez, all who had spent 3 yrs or less in the big leagues. When they all hit their peak, we won the World Series. Sooner or later, KW is gonna have to start that process over again.

chaerulez
12-22-2008, 02:44 PM
Yeah, Adam Dunn just isn't a very good baseball player and he's a horrible fit for the White Sox. Furthermore, the Sox have no interest in him.

Abreu, however, does interest the Sox. As he should. I think it would be great to trade Dye for a really good young player or two and then sign Abreu to a 2 yr. deal very similar to Dye's deal. Whether they could get him for that is unknown at this point.

The Sox need a veteran for 1 more spot in the lineup. They can't have Anderson, Owens, Fields and Getz/Lillibridge taking up 4 spots. That's 4 question marks in the lineup. And, Owens is probably the biggest question mark. Abreu could bat leadoff and remedy that.

We'll see. I would say that it won't happen except for the possibility of Ozzie's connection here. But, the market will determine what happens. I'm sure the Sox won't go 3/$ 45 for Abreu and I don't blame them but 2/$ 24 would be fine, I think.

I'm beginning to doubtvery much that anyone other than Dye gets moved this winter. I think Konerko, Thome and Jenks are staying.

Dunn isn't a good player? He's not good on defense. But he's a pretty solid hitter. He gets on base and his hits usually have a good chance of being a double or home run. His career OPS+ is 130. I'm not saying he's a guy that should be a #3 hitter. But I think he can fit in nicely as a guy to protect Quentin in the lineup. Teams can't pitch around Quentin knowing the guy after him has an OBP of .380.

CashMan
12-22-2008, 02:48 PM
But he's a pretty solid hitter. He gets on base and his hits usually have a good chance of being a double or home run. His career OPS+ is 130. I'm not saying he's a guy that should be a #3 hitter. But I think he can fit in nicely as a guy to protect Quentin in the lineup. Teams can't pitch around Quentin knowing the guy after him has an OBP of .380.


Perhaps mine and other peoples definition of solid hitting differs. To me a solid hitter hits .300 not .240. I don't care if his OBP is .380, he isn't a solid hitter.

btrain929
12-22-2008, 02:55 PM
I don't know about Thome being done after '09. Maybe done with us, but if he hits 30+ HR's next season, he might want to try for 600. And if that's the case, I wouldn't mind seeing him come back to the Sox to try it.

He has to be done with us. You figure, Kenny wants to get younger more athletic, Thomas either neither of those, and his contract is up.

Whether or not Thome is back after '09 depends on a few things:

1) How productive he is in 2009.
2) How much of a paycut he is willing to take to stay here.

If he has a decent year this year, I still don't think any team in the AL will give him a 1yr/12-13MIL deal. I'm assuming he wouldn't mind retiring here. Therefore, if he is willing to come back on a 1yr deal worth about 6MIL, i'd be all for it. It lets him chase 600HR's in a Sox uniform, keeps a power hitting lefty in our lineup that we desperately need, and gives him the opportunity to retire here and maybe wear a Sox hat into the hall (a whole other debate). But, if he is injured half of '09, or demands a 10+MIL contract from us for 2010, then, see ya.

mzh
12-22-2008, 02:56 PM
Dunn isn't a good player? He's not good on defense. But he's a pretty solid hitter. He gets on base and his hits usually have a good chance of being a double or home run. His career OPS+ is 130. I'm not saying he's a guy that should be a #3 hitter. But I think he can fit in nicely as a guy to protect Quentin in the lineup. Teams can't pitch around Quentin knowing the guy after him has an OBP of .380.

We really don't need another guy to strike out 180 times a year. Why should they pitch to Quentin when they know that the next 2 guys both average more that 1 strikeout per game?
The only reason he had a OBP of .380 is because there was nobody else in the lineup to be scared of in Cincy. On the off chance he does come to Chicago, he most definitely not the pitchers biggest worry.

BadBobbyJenks
12-22-2008, 03:04 PM
Just so I am clear, a guy who goes:

OBP: HR: RBI:
.388, 46, 102
.387, 40, 101
.365. 40, 92
.386, 40, 106
.386, 40, 100

is not a good player?

CashMan
12-22-2008, 03:08 PM
Just so I am clear, a guy who goes:

OBP: HR: RBI:
.388, 46, 102
.387, 40, 101
.365. 40, 92
.386, 40, 106
.386, 40, 100

is not a good player?

Throw in his Juan Uribe batting avg.

mzh
12-22-2008, 03:11 PM
No, it is not that he is not a good player. I saw a quote somewhere, I think it might have been somebody's signature, that said something like: "It's not always the best player; it's the player who fits the job the best."

I think a lot of people would agree that the kind of baseball we want to play, having Thome, Konerko, Dye, and Dunn just does not work. We do not want another big hit or big miss guy.

"Throw in his Juan Uribe batting avg."

Good point, we don't want another Nick Swisher either.

BadBobbyJenks
12-22-2008, 03:22 PM
Throw in his Juan Uribe batting avg.

OBP > Avg.

Now I understand those of you who say he is not a good fit on the White Sox right now, but he is a consistently good player. He would be the perfect replacement for Thome, but he is a free agent a year early.

btrain929
12-22-2008, 03:26 PM
OBP > Avg.

Now I understand those of you who say he is not a good fit on the White Sox right now, but he is a consistently good player. He would be the perfect replacement for Thome, but he is a free agent a year early.

If we could trade Konerko (big if), I'd go balls out for Dunn. Have him play 1B this year, and put him at DH next year. I see that as the only way we could consider going after Dunn.

mzh
12-22-2008, 03:29 PM
If we could trade Konerko (big if), I'd go balls out for Dunn. Have him play 1B this year, and put him at DH next year. I see that as the only way we could consider going after Dunn.

That would be difficult, considering Arizona and LA are the only two places Konerko is willing to go, with his NTC. A trade for PK still could happen, but who would we get? Clayton Kershaw? HAHAHA

chaerulez
12-22-2008, 04:13 PM
Perhaps mine and other peoples definition of solid hitting differs. To me a solid hitter hits .300 not .240. I don't care if his OBP is .380, he isn't a solid hitter.

A .300 average isn't that great if your OBP is .320. Dunn might strikeout a lot but he gets on base often and when he does make contact with the ball it's likely to be a double or home run. It wouldn't be a bad idea to play him in the field for one season and then have him replace Thome. Now I'm not saying pay the guy $18 million a year, but if we can have him for 3 years $30 million that's not a bad deal.

PorkChopExpress
12-22-2008, 04:25 PM
That would be difficult, considering Arizona and LA are the only two places Konerko is willing to go, with his NTC. A trade for PK still could happen, but who would we get? Clayton Kershaw? HAHAHA

I hear people on this board say this a lot, but isn't this purely speculation? Has PK ever made it clear who he would waive his no trade rights for and who he would not? How did these two teams become the only two teams PK is willing to play for other than the White Sox?

russ99
12-22-2008, 04:30 PM
I hear people on this board say this a lot, but isn't this purely speculation? Has PK ever made it clear who he would waive his no trade rights for and who he would not? How did these two teams become the only two teams PK is willing to play for other than the White Sox?

Absolute speculation, but he's gotta see the writing on the wall, with Kenny focusing on going younger and more athletic. NTC or not, I very much doubt PK is with the Sox in 2011, unless he busts out and hits .280/50 this year. And even then it's iffy. Plus the last 2 seasons went pretty poorly for him, and something tells me he doesn't get along with Ozzie and/or Walker very well...

I thought Arizona was the only place discussed (off the cuff) that he might waive his NTC to, since he lives there, and that was well before the end of the season.

The Angels were close to signing him when he was a FA after 2005, so that's why they're mentioned so often as a potential trading partner. I never heard anything about the Dodgers, and you can likely scratch them off, since he had a pretty rough time there as a prospect and rookie. Ditto with Cincy.

Frater Perdurabo
12-22-2008, 05:09 PM
A .300 average isn't that great if your OBP is .320.

So Alexei Ramirez (.290/.317) isn't "that great?"

BadBobbyJenks
12-22-2008, 05:54 PM
So Alexei Ramirez (.290/.317) isn't "that great?"

No it really isn't.

Lukin13
12-22-2008, 09:38 PM
I think many of the people on this board who actually watch most or every White Sox game, got really sick of watching a team that wasn't very good at fundamental baseball in 2008. It was VERY hard to watch.

BUT

This team also had a great deal of injury problems and still managed to win the division.

I want to see "Good" baseball on the southside just as much as the next guy, but I am not sure that it will lead to more wins. Especially, when they play 81 at the Cell.

Adam Dunn is an offensive monster, easily a top ten offensive player last year, and easily a top five over the past five years. Taboot he gets on base very well, doesn't clog the bases and is left handed.

I assume for most that are defending him here, the attraction is coming from the 3/36 numbers that are being thrown about (I have my doubts if that signs Dunn) by several credible sources.

Anyone that won't take an automatic 40/100/.385 for 3/36 is on crack.

champagne030
12-22-2008, 10:24 PM
The only reason he had a OBP of .380 is because there was nobody else in the lineup to be scared of in Cincy. On the off chance he does come to Chicago, he most definitely not the pitchers biggest worry.

That's false. Votto, Phillips, Griffey, Bruce were threats. Maybe they didn't give in on 3-1, but they were not giving him 4 pitches in the dirt to get to Votto. As a pitcher, the only guy in our lineup who should be feared more than Dunn would be tCQ. He's basically Thome.

WhiteSoxFan84
12-22-2008, 11:05 PM
Take the + off, he avgs 40/100, and bats .240. I don't see batting .240 walking 100 times and striking out 150 times worth $10+ mill per year.

I'll actually hang on to the "+" and give my guy credit for...

HRs average: (46+40+40+40+40)/5 = 41.2
RBIs average: (102+101+92+106+100)/5 = 100.2

http://members.airsoftcanada.com/digital_assasin/Forum%20Stuff/Misc/oh_snap.gif

WhiteSoxFan84
12-22-2008, 11:36 PM
No it really isn't.

wow... we are agreeing on a lot in this thread.

Craig Grebeck
12-23-2008, 12:00 AM
Adam Dunn is an offensive monster, easily a top ten offensive player last year, and easily a top five over the past five years. Taboot he gets on base very well, doesn't clog the bases and is left handed.

I'm sorry, but that's preposterous. Yeah, I get why people like Dunn, but left fielders that post his numbers aren't that hard to come by. Hell, according to VORP, Dunn was the 15th best LFer in baseball last year! To call him a top ten player, in any given season, is laughable -- and to consider him a top five over the past five years is worse. Again, according to VORP, Dunn was the 93rd best hitter in baseball last season. Is he a good hitter? Yes. Is he elite, as you say? Not even close. He's a guy that many people on both sides of the great SABR debate like to cite, but the fact remains, he's a good hitter who could implode in any given season (in the wrong or right direction). He's a good player for a more complete team to go after, but we don't exactly have twelve million to toss around -- and if we did, it'd be much better spent on pitching.

Also, I used VORP because Dunn, as many know, is a guy that the more, shall we say, statistically inclined fans tend to appreciate.

drewcifer
12-23-2008, 12:20 AM
I'm sorry, but that's preposterous. Yeah, I get why people like Dunn, but left fielders that post his numbers aren't that hard to come by. Hell, according to VORP, Dunn was the 15th best LFer in baseball last year! To call him a top ten player, in any given season, is laughable -- and to consider him a top five over the past five years is worse. Again, according to VORP, Dunn was the 93rd best hitter in baseball last season. Is he a good hitter? Yes. Is he elite, as you say? Not even close. He's a guy that many people on both sides of the great SABR debate like to cite, but the fact remains, he's a good hitter who could implode in any given season (in the wrong or right direction). He's a good player for a more complete team to go after, but we don't exactly have twelve million to toss around -- and if we did, it'd be much better spent on pitching.

Also, I used VORP because Dunn, as many know, is a guy that the more, shall we say, statistically inclined fans tend to appreciate.

You never cease to baffle. 93rd best hitter last season? Out of how many did you make this sample?????

You liked Swisher, but THIS guy has all the BS stats you love. Make up your mind! I wouldn't want another guy like Dunn anywhere near this team, but if you read your own posts, he has everything you covet.

WhiteSoxFan84
12-23-2008, 12:21 AM
I'm sorry, but that's preposterous. Yeah, I get why people like Dunn, but left fielders that post his numbers aren't that hard to come by. Hell, according to VORP, Dunn was the 15th best LFer in baseball last year! To call him a top ten player, in any given season, is laughable -- and to consider him a top five over the past five years is worse. Again, according to VORP, Dunn was the 93rd best hitter in baseball last season. Is he a good hitter? Yes. Is he elite, as you say? Not even close. He's a guy that many people on both sides of the great SABR debate like to cite, but the fact remains, he's a good hitter who could implode in any given season (in the wrong or right direction). He's a good player for a more complete team to go after, but we don't exactly have twelve million to toss around -- and if we did, it'd be much better spent on pitching.

Also, I used VORP because Dunn, as many know, is a guy that the more, shall we say, statistically inclined fans tend to appreciate.


*** is VORP?
Wow, I thought FIP was a stretch and you continue to dig up these twisted stats. Can you give me a link to where I can find VORPs? I'd love to see how hitters from successful teams are ranked in these VORPs and how meaningful they are.

Whatever happened to just playing the game and judging guys by how they fit in a lineup? When did these VORPs, AARPs, DDTs, SOBs, POSs, ETCs start mattering so much?

And Adam Dunn would be great for the Sox if Thome wasn't around. But we can't have them both in our lineup, at least not when PK and JD are also on the team.



You never cease to baffle. 93rd best hitter last season? Out of how many did you make this sample?????

You liked Swisher, but THIS guy has all the BS stats you love. Make up your mind! I wouldn't want another guy like Dunn anywhere near this team, but if you read your own posts, he has everything you covet.

I learned a lot in business stats and one of the things I learned was that statisticians can twist numbers around to make anything they say seem true. CB is infamous for carefully selecting only the numbers that make his opinion sound good.

Instead of CB (love the acronym, so fitting) using his famous 3 numbers, AVG/OBP/OPS, which for Dunn would be .247/.381/.900 (yes, .900), he completely ignores them and looks up any formula to make Dunn look bad. Ladies and gentlemen, introducing VORP, which guess what? Makes Dunn look bad! Oh CB, you are something.

Craig Grebeck
12-23-2008, 12:27 AM
You never cease to baffle. 93rd best hitter last season? Out of how many did you make this sample?????

You liked Swisher, but THIS guy has all the BS stats you love. Make up your mind! I wouldn't want another guy like Dunn anywhere near this team, but if you read your own posts, he has everything you covet.
I'm still waiting for you to explain to me how Abreu batted second in the majority of his ABs last season. Also, Dunn doesn't have everything I covet. Swisher is a better player than Dunn, when one considers defense and contract.
*** is VORP?
Wow, I thought FIP was a stretch and you continue to dig up these twisted stats. Can you give me a link to where I can find VORPs? I'd love to see how hitters from successful teams are ranked in these VORPs and how meaningful they are.

Whatever happened to just playing the game and judging guys by how they fit in a lineup? When did these VORPs, AARPs, DDTs, SOBs, POSs, ETCs start mattering so much?

And Adam Dunn would be great for the Sox if Thome wasn't around. But we can't have them both in our lineup, at least not when PK and JD are also on the team.
www.baseballprospectus.com

I don't live and die with VORP, but it goes a long way in refuting the idea that Dunn is a top ten offensive player.

drewcifer
12-23-2008, 12:27 AM
Whatever happened to just playing the game and judging guys by how they fit in a lineup? When did these VORPs, AARPs, DDTs, SOBs, POSs, ETCs start mattering so much?


Craig's list.

Craig Grebeck
12-23-2008, 12:30 AM
Instead of CB (love the acronym, so fitting) using his famous 3 numbers, AVG/OBP/OPS, which for Dunn would be .247/.381/.900 (yes, .900), he completely ignores them and looks up any formula to make Dunn look bad. Ladies and gentlemen, introducing VORP, which guess what? Makes Dunn look bad! Oh CB, you are something.
All things considered, I don't consider a .900 OPS for a corner outfielder, leaving his prime years, all that impressive. He's played his entire career in the NL, and I don't feel like we should sign him. I'm not going to use the same stats every time I evaluate a player, because there's not one statistic that tells the whole story. Whether or not you agree with my route to my point, I don't see how anyone could possibly agree with the idea that Adam Dunn is a top ten offensive player. He's a left fielder who can't hack it with the glove, and could very well regress quickly, due to his "old player skills."

drewcifer
12-23-2008, 12:33 AM
I'm still waiting for you to explain to me how Abreu batted second in the majority of his ABs last season. Also, Dunn doesn't have everything I covet. Swisher is a better player than Dunn, when one considers defense and contract.

Swisher sucks. He's a Billy Beane yarn and you are buying it. Grow up. We saw him. He's not even a real switch hitter. He's not a contact hitter; his OBP is based on WALKS alone. His days of WAITING for late strikes are over. It'll get worse now in NY. Watch.

As for Abreu, I'll refer you AGAIN...AGAIN.

http://www.whitesoxinteractive.com/vbulletin/showpost.php?p=2124641&postcount=112

Craig Grebeck
12-23-2008, 12:35 AM
Swisher sucks. He's a Billy Beane yarn and you are buying it. Grow up. We saw him. He's not even a real switch hitter. He's not a contact hitter; his OBP is based on WALKS alone. His days of WAITING for late strikes are over. It'll get worse now in NY. Watch.

As for Abreu, I'll refer you AGAIN...AGAIN.

http://www.whitesoxinteractive.com/vbulletin/showpost.php?p=2124641&postcount=112
Abreu hit #2 - everyday. No #1 most of the time. He's a hitter. AND, I'd say more patient than ANYONE we've ever seen at that spot.


On Swisher, I think he's likely to rebound and we traded him for scraps, and threw in a minor league reliever with decent value. If you disagree, fine, whatever, I just think he and Dunn are two completely different players.

drewcifer
12-23-2008, 12:40 AM
On Swisher, I think he's likely to rebound and we traded him for scraps, and threw in a minor league reliever with decent value. If you disagree, fine, whatever, I just think he and Dunn are two completely different players.

Craig - You are a tough guy to get through to. What in the world makes you think Swisher is going to "rebound"? He is a ****ty career hitter. He is.

Dunn is just as ****ty, but his contributing numbers are so consistent, it's not even funny.

WhiteSoxFan84
12-23-2008, 12:41 AM
www.baseballprospectus.com (http://www.baseballprospectus.com)

I don't live and die with VORP, but it goes a long way in refuting the idea that Dunn is a top ten offensive player.

Uh yeh, VORP really is a great tool...
Jermaine Dye - 46th
Ryan Howard - 49th
Mark Teixeira - 56th
Manny Ramirez - 61st
David Ortiz - 83rd
Rick Ankiel - 102nd
Alexei Ramirez - 123rd
Miguel Tejada - 124th

Meanwhile...
Stephen Drew - 36th
Mike Aviles - 55th
Cristian Guzman - 64th (1 spot ahead of Thome)


And oh BTW, the defending AL Pennant champs had ZERO (0) guys in the top 50.

Thus concluding, VORP = meaningless.

Craig Grebeck
12-23-2008, 12:42 AM
Craig - You are a tough guy to get through to. What in the world makes you think Swisher is going to "rebound"? He is a ****ty career hitter. He is.

Dunn is just as ****ty, but his contributing numbers are so consistent, it's not even funny.
Well, considering his numbers this season were so completely out of line with the rest of his career, and the fact that his BABIP pointed towards horrendous luck rather than a random loss of skills, I'd say the odds are pretty good he could come back. My issue was mainly with the idea we should dump him for scraps, which we did and could very well regret soon.

Craig Grebeck
12-23-2008, 12:45 AM
Uh yeh, VORP really is a great tool...
Jermaine Dye - 46th
Ryan Howard - 49th
Mark Teixeira - 56th
Manny Ramirez - 61st
David Ortiz - 83rd
Rick Ankiel - 102nd
Alexei Ramirez - 123rd
Miguel Tejada - 124th

Meanwhile...
Stephen Drew - 36th
Cristian Guzman - 64th (1 spot ahead of Thome)


And oh BTW, the defending AL Pennant champs had ZERO (0) guys in the top 50.

Thus concluding, VORP = meaningless.
I fail to see your point. I cited that in response to the idea that Dunn was a top ten player. Do I live and die with VORP? No, I said that. I cited it because there is a perception afoot that most guys who appreciate Dunn are "stat guys" who also value VORP. So, wouldn't there be some overlap? Wouldn't VORP value a hitter like Dunn?

WhiteSoxFan84
12-23-2008, 12:48 AM
Well, considering his numbers this season were so completely out of line with the rest of his career, and the fact that his BABIP pointed towards horrendous luck rather than a random loss of skills, I'd say the odds are pretty good he could come back. My issue was mainly with the idea we should dump him for scraps, which we did and could very well regret soon.

Wait, wait, wait, WAIT... Isn't Swisher just a suckier version of Dunn? Low batting average, good OBP, some pop, no speed. But you like Swisher... yet you hate Dunn... you really don't know what to stand for do you?


I fail to see your point. I cited that in response to the idea that Dunn was a top ten player. Do I live and die with VORP? No, I said that. I cited it because there is a perception afoot that most guys who appreciate Dunn are "stat guys" who also value VORP. So, wouldn't there be some overlap? Wouldn't VORP value a hitter like Dunn?

Why do you talk like that? "afoot"? Seriously? You use that **** in real life conversations? This is a BASEBALL FORUM. You're not impressing anyone with your awesome, extended vocabulary. And if you talk like this in real life........ lol man. Anyway, you pointed to Dunn's VORP being low and stated that that was part of your reason to why you think he's bad. You also CONVENIENTLY leftout the 3 #s you ALWAYS use to tell us if you think a player is good or not. But no worries, I posted those numbers for Dunn and they are impressive. You, of course, didn't acknowledge those and continue to spin in circles.

You lose.

drewcifer
12-23-2008, 12:50 AM
Well, considering his numbers this season were so completely out of line with the rest of his career, and the fact that his BABIP pointed towards horrendous luck rather than a random loss of skills, I'd say the odds are pretty good he could come back. My issue was mainly with the idea we should dump him for scraps, which we did and could very well regret soon.

You can hate the trade, that's fine. Gio has been traded like dirty underpants and DLS is still an unknown... Marquez could surprise you.

You wanted a pitcher too.

Craig Grebeck
12-23-2008, 12:52 AM
Wait, wait, wait, WAIT... Isn't Swisher just a suckier version of Dunn? Low batting average, good OBP, some pop, no speed. But you like Swisher... yet you hate Dunn... you really don't know what to stand for do you?
Spin, spin, spin, spin, spin. Please. I don't hate Dunn, I just think he'd be a poor way for this team to utilize its resources. Why do you take everything to the extremes? I disagree with the notion that Dunn is a great hitter, and you say I hate him.

Do I love Swisher? I did for a time, and as the season wore on I became more frustrated with him, but still defended him against the barbs being thrown at him around here. I hated the trade that sent him to NY, and still do. Does that mean I love him? Absolutely not.

Craig Grebeck
12-23-2008, 12:54 AM
Why do you talk like that? "afoot"? Seriously? You use that **** in real life conversations? This is a BASEBALL FORUM. You're not impressing anyone with your awesome, extended vocabulary. And if you talk like this in real life........ lol man. Anyway, you pointed to Dunn's VORP being low and stated that that was part of your reason to why you think he's bad. You also CONVENIENTLY leftout the 3 #s you ALWAYS use to tell us if you think a player is good or not. But no worries, I posted those numbers for Dunn and they are impressive. You, of course, didn't acknowledge those and continue to spin in circles.

You lose.
I think I learned the word "afoot" in second grade.

Clearly, I called him a bad hitter in the post you are referencing...

Again, according to VORP, Dunn was the 93rd best hitter in baseball last season. Is he a good hitter? Yes. Is he elite, as you say? Not even close. He's a guy that many people on both sides of the great SABR debate like to cite, but the fact remains, he's a good hitter who could implode in any given season (in the wrong or right direction). He's a good player for a more complete team to go after, but we don't exactly have twelve million to toss around -- and if we did, it'd be much better spent on pitching.

drewcifer
12-23-2008, 12:55 AM
Spin, spin, spin, spin, spin. Please. I don't hate Dunn, I just think he'd be a poor way for this team to utilize its resources. Why do you take everything to the extremes? I disagree with the notion that Dunn is a great hitter, and you say I hate him.

Do I love Swisher? I did for a time, and as the season wore on I became more frustrated with him, but still defended him against the barbs being thrown at him around here. I hated the trade that sent him to NY, and still do. Does that mean I love him? Absolutely not.

Now look at Abreu. 10x better than both. Runner, hitter, top of the order spot (sans Pierzynski)... I can't even believe we're talking about this if the price is right (and the market is going our way).

Craig Grebeck
12-23-2008, 12:57 AM
Now look at Abreu. 10x better than both. Runner, hitter, top of the order spot (sans Pierzynski)... I can't even believe we're talking about this if the price is right (and the market is going our way).
But Abreu is trending the wrong direction. He no longer steals bases at the same clip he once did, he is becoming a worse defender, and he is now swinging at more balls out of the strike zone than ever before. I'm just opposed to signing a player with those problems. Agree to disagree.

btrain929
12-23-2008, 01:00 AM
Wait, wait, wait, WAIT... Isn't Swisher just a suckier version of Dunn? Low batting average, good OBP, some pop, no speed. But you like Swisher... yet you hate Dunn... you really don't know what to stand for do you?

Why do you talk like that? "afoot"? Seriously? You use that **** in real life conversations? This is a BASEBALL FORUM. You're not impressing anyone with your awesome, extended vocabulary. And if you talk like this in real life........ lol man. Anyway, you pointed to Dunn's VORP being low and stated that that was part of your reason to why you think he's bad. You also CONVENIENTLY leftout the 3 #s you ALWAYS use to tell us if you think a player is good or not. But no worries, I posted those numbers for Dunn and they are impressive. You, of course, didn't acknowledge those and continue to spin in circles.

You lose.

:rolling::rolling::rolling::rolling::rolling:

WhiteSoxFan84
12-23-2008, 01:00 AM
Spin, spin, spin, spin, spin. Please. I don't hate Dunn, I just think he'd be a poor way for this team to utilize its resources. Why do you take everything to the extremes? I disagree with the notion that Dunn is a great hitter, and you say I hate him.

Do I love Swisher? I did for a time, and as the season wore on I became more frustrated with him, but still defended him against the barbs being thrown at him around here. I hated the trade that sent him to NY, and still do. Does that mean I love him? Absolutely not.

He sucks and I'm beyond glad he's gone. If Marquez wins just 2 games for us in his White Sox career, he'll have won 1 more game than Swisher ever won for us (8/5 vs Det).

Craig Grebeck
12-23-2008, 01:03 AM
:rolling::rolling::rolling::rolling::rolling:
Heh. I'm shocked.

drewcifer
12-23-2008, 01:03 AM
But Abreu is trending the wrong direction. He no longer steals bases at the same clip he once did, he is becoming a worse defender, and he is now swinging at more balls out of the strike zone than ever before. I'm just opposed to signing a player with those problems. Agree to disagree.

No. If we can move Dye for a pitcher, he's the perfect guy if we buy an FA. And again, he hit all over the place in NY - did you ever look at him in Mr. Precious Jeter's spot???? He killed once that ass was out of the way.... Think about our past #2 hitters. The best we've had in recent memory is probaby Gooch... Abreu vs. Gooch?

WhiteSoxFan84
12-23-2008, 01:03 AM
:rolling::rolling::rolling::rolling::rolling:

Hey! Keep it down and stop kicking the floor! I have neighbors downstairs... :redneck

Dude, when the **** will KW make a move to get us to talk about something, somewhat meaningful?!
And of course, whatever the next move is, CB hates it already.
"White Sox trade Jermaine Dye to Cardinals for Albert Pujols"
CB on WSI 10 seconds later: "I'm really shocked at this move... while Pujols' VORP, OBP, OPS, AVG, HR, RBI, INS, CSI, NCIS, COPS, and dental plan are very impressive, he's a free agent to be in 3 years and his hair has been declining the last few years which is a sign of decreased vision which will lead to all of his stats decreasing and an eventual demotion to the minor leagues isn't far away either".

Craig Grebeck
12-23-2008, 01:04 AM
He sucks and I'm beyond glad he's gone. If Marquez wins just 2 games for us in his White Sox career, he'll have won 1 more game than Swisher ever won for us (8/5 vs Det).
I understand what you mean. There's lots of Sox fans that feel this way too, but I don't feel like we should have jumped the gun and moved him before Teixeira and some other corner OF signed. Again, agree to disagree.

Craig Grebeck
12-23-2008, 01:06 AM
No. If we can move Dye for a pitcher, he's the perfect guy if we buy an FA. And again, he hit all over the place in NY - did you ever look at him in Mr. Precious Jeter's spot???? He killed once that ass was out of the way.... Think about our past #2 hitters. The best we've had in recent memory is probaby Gooch... Abreu vs. Gooch?
That's twelve games of data, it's hardly a meaningful sample. Abreu for one year would be nice, two years would be okay, but three years scares the living hell out of me. If Dye was moved for a pitcher, sure, I'd consider it, but the pitcher would have to be someone with success in the majors (Sonnanstine) rather than a lottery ticket like Bailey.

WhiteSoxFan84
12-23-2008, 01:09 AM
I understand what you mean. There's lots of Sox fans that feel this way too, but I don't feel like we should have jumped the gun and moved him before Teixeira and some other corner OF signed. Again, agree to disagree.

KW can't be perfect all the time. We actually can agree on the fact that KW traded him too soon. Kenny has an ace up his sleeve. I just know it. I hope it's LITERALLY an ace (as in a frontline pitcher and not a playing card) but we'll see.

Craig Grebeck
12-23-2008, 01:10 AM
Hey! Keep it down and stop kicking the floor! I have neighbors downstairs... :redneck

Dude, when the **** will KW make a move to get us to talk about something, somewhat meaningful?!
And of course, whatever the next move is, CB hates it already.
"White Sox trade Jermaine Dye to Cardinals for Albert Pujols"
CB on WSI 10 seconds later: "I'm really shocked at this move... while Pujols' VORP, OBP, OPS, AVG, HR, RBI, INS, CSI, NCIS, COPS, and dental plan are very impressive, he's a free agent to be in 3 years and his hair has been declining the last few years which is a sign of decreased vision which will lead to all of his stats decreasing and an eventual demotion to the minor leagues isn't far away either".
I'm still waiting for you to show me where I called Adam Dunn a bad hitter. I merely disagreed with the notion that he's elite.

drewcifer
12-23-2008, 01:11 AM
That's twelve games of data, it's hardly a meaningful sample. Abreu for one year would be nice, two years would be okay, but three years scares the living hell out of me. If Dye was moved for a pitcher, sure, I'd consider it, but the pitcher would have to be someone with success in the majors (Sonnanstine) rather than a lottery ticket like Bailey.

I'd rather have Bailey. Sonnanstine is already a #4 on a young team and they had to fix him. He has 3 pitches.

Bailey was Cincy's prospect for #1 and at 20 years old. That means he could pitch before they rushed him and ****ed him up. And they say he has 5 bonified serves.

btrain929
12-23-2008, 01:12 AM
Heh. I'm shocked.

What? The man is on a roll tonight. Sorry I'm not sorry.

Hey! Keep it down and stop kicking the floor! I have neighbors downstairs... :redneck

Dude, when the **** will KW make a move to get us to talk about something, somewhat meaningful?!
And of course, whatever the next move is, CB hates it already.
"White Sox trade Jermaine Dye to Cardinals for Albert Pujols"
CB on WSI 10 seconds later: "I'm really shocked at this move... while Pujols' VORP, OBP, OPS, AVG, HR, RBI, INS, CSI, NCIS, COPS, and dental plan are very impressive, he's a free agent to be in 3 years and his hair has been declining the last few years which is a sign of decreased vision which will lead to all of his stats decreasing and an eventual demotion to the minor leagues isn't far away either".

Best entertainment for free at 115am money can buy.....:D:

Nellie_Fox
12-23-2008, 01:13 AM
Why do you talk like that? "afoot"? Seriously? You use that **** in real life conversations? This is a BASEBALL FORUM. You're not impressing anyone with your awesome, extended vocabulary. And if you talk like this in real life........ lol man. This is getting close to a personal attack. Don't.

WhiteSoxFan84
12-23-2008, 01:14 AM
What? The man is on a roll tonight. Sorry I'm not sorry.

Best entertainment for free at 115am money can buy.....:D:


http://www.proof7.com/p7nyc/imaes/TyroneBigguns-thumb.jpg

"I smoke rocks!"



This is getting close to a personal attack. Don't.

It's not Nellie. I'm giving the guy life advice. For free! lol
How many gals want to carry on a convo with someone who talks like that? He's a fellow Sox fan, I want to make sure he isn't made fun of in school, at work, etc.

Craig Grebeck
12-23-2008, 01:14 AM
I'd rather have Bailey. Sonnanstine is already a #4 on a young team and they had to fix him. He has 3 pitches.

Bailey was Cincy's prospect for #1 and at 20 years old. That means he could pitch before they rushed him and ****ed him up. And they say he has 5 bonified serves.
Eh, guys with Sonnanstine's command don't come around often. He's going to break out in a big way very soon.

Craig Grebeck
12-23-2008, 01:18 AM
It's not Nellie. I'm giving the guy life advice. For free! lol. How many gals want to carry on a convo with someone who talks like that? He's a fellow Sox fan, I want to make sure he isn't made fun of in school, at work, etc.
Intelligent ones? I'm doing fine for myself. Thanks.

drewcifer
12-23-2008, 01:20 AM
Eh, guys with Sonnanstine's command don't come around often. He's going to break out in a big way very soon.

A good start would be improving his 5 ERA against the trecherous lead off hitting O-Cab, Nick Swisher, and the rest of the geriatric '08 White Sox....

Craig Grebeck
12-23-2008, 01:22 AM
A good start would be improving his 5 ERA against the trecherous lead off hitting O-Cab, Nick Swisher, and the rest of the geriatric '08 White Sox....
He did alright against everyone else. That's a pretty terrible way to evaluate a pitcher.

drewcifer
12-23-2008, 01:25 AM
He did alright against everyone else. That's a pretty terrible way to evaluate a pitcher.

Ever play shirts and skins growing up? Any sport? Guess not.

WhiteSoxFan84
12-23-2008, 01:33 AM
Ever play shirts and skins growing up? Any sport? Guess not.

Eh, Drew don't let him get you to stoop so low. I've said some personal stuff but let's just stop it here out of respect for Nellie and the other mods.

drewcifer
12-23-2008, 01:38 AM
Eh, Drew don't let him get you to stoop so low. I've said some personal stuff but let's just stop it here out of respect for Nellie and the other mods.

Didn't think I was stooping - He likes facts and stats, we can look at those.... make a point against real life experience too, but if you think it's getting tense, I'll bow out.

WhiteSoxFan84
12-23-2008, 01:44 AM
Didn't think I was stooping - He likes facts and stats, we can look at those.... make a point against real life experience too, but if you think it's getting tense, I'll bow out.

I know what you mean, believe me I do lol. But neither one of us needs to get banned arguing with this guy.

BadBobbyJenks
12-23-2008, 02:14 AM
Ever play shirts and skins growing up? Any sport? Guess not.

What a great argument!:rolleyes:

Craig Grebeck
12-23-2008, 06:59 AM
Ever play shirts and skins growing up? Any sport? Guess not.
This truly is an even worse way to evaluate a pitcher.

kittle42
12-23-2008, 08:26 AM
This is getting close to a personal attack. Don't.

It's also making fun of someone for actually having a vocabulary, which speaks volumes about the attacker.

kittle42
12-23-2008, 08:27 AM
Ever play shirts and skins growing up? Any sport? Guess not.

This argument ****ing sucks. It always does.

jabrch
12-23-2008, 09:25 AM
You can hate the trade, that's fine. Gio has been traded like dirty underpants and DLS is still an unknown... Marquez could surprise you.

You wanted a pitcher too.


I must hang out in different circles than you. Where I come from, we don't trade dirty underpants. :scratch:

jabrch
12-23-2008, 09:53 AM
KW can't be perfect all the time. We actually can agree on the fact that KW traded him too soon. Kenny has an ace up his sleeve. I just know it. I hope it's LITERALLY an ace (as in a frontline pitcher and not a playing card) but we'll see.


Kenny already explained EXACTLY why he did it when he did it. The money he had allocated to Swisher needed to be spent for Viciedo. Williams couldn't risk not being able to move him to someone willing to pay the entire contract.

voodoochile
12-23-2008, 10:05 AM
I must hang out in different circles than you. Where I come from, we don't trade dirty underpants. :scratch:

Throw them in the hamper and everyone runs around naked?

russ99
12-23-2008, 10:21 AM
Kenny already explained EXACTLY why he did it when he did it. The money he had allocated to Swisher needed to be spent for Viciedo. Williams couldn't risk not being able to move him to someone willing to pay the entire contract.

I don't believe that for a second. Did Kenny have to cut salary to add Ramirez last year in a similar situation?? I seem to remember that he added more salary (Dotel) after signing Alexei.

Viciedo's deal is over 4 seasons and just over $2M per. Not an impact dollar figure on the big picture at all, and merely a fraction of Swisher's salary.

To me, that's a very lame excuse to get around not telling the fanbase that there is a drastically reduced payroll budget for 2009.

2906
12-23-2008, 10:26 AM
Viciedo's deal is over 4 seasons and just over $2M per. Not an impact dollar figure on the big picture at all, and merely a fraction of Swisher's salary.



Big signing bonus payable this year though, $4M I believe. Plus the $1M salary for 2009. Not 100% sure on the numbers but it's close to what Swisher will make this year.

champagne030
12-23-2008, 12:03 PM
Kenny already explained EXACTLY why he did it when he did it. The money he had allocated to Swisher needed to be spent for Viciedo. Williams couldn't risk not being able to move him to someone willing to pay the entire contract.

:scratch: You've stated numerous times that anything KW says to the media is not believable. Why should we now believe him? When it fits your version of events?

Tragg
12-23-2008, 12:15 PM
Kenny already explained EXACTLY why he did it when he did it. The money he had allocated to Swisher needed to be spent for Viciedo. Williams couldn't risk not being able to move him to someone willing to pay the entire contract.
There was little risk of not being able to move him.
The bigger mistake was the trade that brought him here in the first place. He wasn't a fit with the Sox and Ozzie's style...and for the same reason, I think Dye is a much better fit here than Abreu is. (plus cheaper and shorter contract).

WhiteSoxFan84
12-23-2008, 12:59 PM
It's also making fun of someone for actually having a vocabulary, which speaks volumes about the attacker.

I'm not even going to start with you. A match with you would be way too easy. I may not have the best vocab around here, and that's partly because sometimes I just don't give a ****, but throw in the fact that I grew up in Iraq and moved here in 1992, I think I'm doing just fine. Will I be writing a novel anytime soon? You know what... I just might be!


Kenny already explained EXACTLY why he did it when he did it. The money he had allocated to Swisher needed to be spent for Viciedo. Williams couldn't risk not being able to move him to someone willing to pay the entire contract.

You, my friend, are what we in the "biz" call a "mark". A mark is someone who believes all the bull**** the media, PR guys, and in this case, a general manager, spews out. Scott Boras would LOVE to have you as a GM in the MLB.


There was little risk of not being able to move him.
The bigger mistake was the trade that brought him here in the first place. He wasn't a fit with the Sox and Ozzie's style...and for the same reason, I think Dye is a much better fit here than Abreu is. (plus cheaper and shorter contract).

Amen! We can't look at it NOW and say that, but some felt that way from day one. I truthfully can't remember how I felt about the deal but it doesn't matter how I feel. Although I will give Kenny a pass on this one because NO ONE expected Swisher to suck as bad as he did.

kittle42
12-23-2008, 01:35 PM
I'm not even going to start with you. A match with you would be way too easy. I may not have the best vocab around here, and that's partly because sometimes I just don't give a ****, but throw in the fact that I grew up in Iraq and moved here in 1992, I think I'm doing just fine. Will I be writing a novel anytime soon? You know what... I just might be!

You probably still had a better grasp of the English language in 1992 than most high school seniors in the US right now.

My point is people shouldn't be made fun of for using "big" words.

SoxNation05
12-23-2008, 03:08 PM
Uh yeh, VORP really is a great tool...
Jermaine Dye - 46th
Ryan Howard - 49th
Mark Teixeira - 56th
Manny Ramirez - 61st
David Ortiz - 83rd
Rick Ankiel - 102nd
Alexei Ramirez - 123rd
Miguel Tejada - 124th

Meanwhile...
Stephen Drew - 36th
Mike Aviles - 55th
Cristian Guzman - 64th (1 spot ahead of Thome)


And oh BTW, the defending AL Pennant champs had ZERO (0) guys in the top 50.

Thus concluding, VORP = meaningless.
What an outstanding post.:thumbsup: Any post that thinks Mike Aviles is better than Manny Ramirez is an absolute bull**** stat.

Ever play shirts and skins growing up? Any sport? Guess not.
Terrible arguement. Sports and intelligence can go hand and hand. Saying someone is unathletic just because they use big words is ridiculous and extremely stereotypical. Athletes who are smart are the athletes that succeed the most.

Wait, wait, wait, WAIT... Isn't Swisher just a suckier version of Dunn? Low batting average, good OBP, some pop, no speed. But you like Swisher... yet you hate Dunn... you really don't know what to stand for do you?




Why do you talk like that? "afoot"? Seriously? You use that **** in real life conversations? This is a BASEBALL FORUM. You're not impressing anyone with your awesome, extended vocabulary. And if you talk like this in real life........ lol man. Anyway, you pointed to Dunn's VORP being low and stated that that was part of your reason to why you think he's bad. You also CONVENIENTLY leftout the 3 #s you ALWAYS use to tell us if you think a player is good or not. But no worries, I posted those numbers for Dunn and they are impressive. You, of course, didn't acknowledge those and continue to spin in circles.

You lose.
While I will never side with Grebeck or anything he says that is just a bull**** way to put it. I do really think Grebeck takes this board too seriously.

btrain929
12-23-2008, 03:40 PM
On Swisher, I think he's likely to rebound and we traded him for scraps, and threw in a minor league reliever with decent value. If you disagree, fine, whatever, I just think he and Dunn are two completely different players.

I wonder if CG feels the same way, now that he doesn't have a position to play in NY, either, with the addition of Tex...

DSpivack
12-23-2008, 04:05 PM
I wonder if CG feels the same way, now that he doesn't have a position to play in NY, either, with the addition of Tex...

With Melky, a healthy Matsui and Damon, and Xavier Nady, where is Swisher going to play? And why did the Yankees trade for him? That's a very expensive 5th OF/backup 1B.

btrain929
12-23-2008, 04:13 PM
With Melky, a healthy Matsui and Damon, and Xavier Nady, where is Swisher going to play? And why did the Yankees trade for him? That's a very expensive 5th OF/backup 1B.

VERY expensive. Well, I have a new project after the '09 season: to calculate how much money he made for every pinch-hit/strikeout-looking/dumb facial reaction at-bat.

SoxNation05
12-23-2008, 04:25 PM
VERY expensive. Well, I have a new project after the '09 season: to calculate how much money he made for every pinch-hit/strikeout-looking/dumb facial reaction at-bat.
He had bad luck.

Craig Grebeck
12-23-2008, 08:34 PM
What an outstanding post.:thumbsup: Any post that thinks Mike Aviles is better than Manny Ramirez is an absolute bull**** stat.


Terrible arguement. Sports and intelligence can go hand and hand. Saying someone is unathletic just because they use big words is ridiculous and extremely stereotypical. Athletes who are smart are the athletes that succeed the most.


While I will never side with Grebeck or anything he says that is just a bull**** way to put it. I do really think Grebeck takes this board too seriously.
1. I already explained why I chose VORP. I don't believe wholeheartedly in it, as I've stated many times in this thread.
2. I don't take the board too seriously. I speak my mind in a coherent manner. My apologies.

I wonder if CG feels the same way, now that he doesn't have a position to play in NY, either, with the addition of Tex...
I still feel he's likely to rebound.
With Melky, a healthy Matsui and Damon, and Xavier Nady, where is Swisher going to play? And why did the Yankees trade for him? That's a very expensive 5th OF/backup 1B.
Probably because they didn't give anything up that they couldn't live without. Even if he's a fourth (I have no idea where you got the idea of him being a fifth outfielder) OF and part time first baseman, he should succeed.
He had bad luck.
Many people much, much smarter than me have written all about this on the interwebs.

btrain929
12-23-2008, 08:56 PM
Even if he's a fourth (I have no idea where you got the idea of him being a fifth outfielder) OF and part time first baseman, he should succeed.

So when he sucks in 290 AB's, are you going to blame it on him not getting enough playing time?