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tm1119
12-08-2008, 10:35 AM
I know its not really a necessary thread but i was thinking about the Dye trade and since we seem to be rebuilding this year i wanted to look forward to the potential of the 2010 lineup.

C- Flowers
1B- Brandon Allen
2B- Lillibridge/Getz
SS- Alexi
3B- Beckham
LF- Quentin
CF- Danks/Shelby?
RF- Viciedo
DH- Fields

SP- Danks
SP- Floyd
SP- Bailey
SP- Buehrle
SP- Poreda
RP- Rusell
RP- Richard
RP- Thorton
RP- Link
RP- Derek Rodriguez
CL- Jenks

Maybe Im over optimistic but im very excited for 2010 as I honestly think a lot of these guys will pan out into good major league players. This is a very young and cheap team that could be good for a very long team.

hi im skot
12-08-2008, 10:38 AM
It's December 8th...

veeter
12-08-2008, 10:39 AM
It's December 8th...Yes...of 2008!!!!

Rocky Soprano
12-08-2008, 10:43 AM
What Dye Trade?
Who is Alexi?
Beckham plays 3rd?

hi im skot
12-08-2008, 10:43 AM
Yes...of 2008!!!!

Oh, whoops...I didn't even notice the 2010 part.

Wow, I don't even know where to start, then.

It's interesting that so many folks seem to think we're "rebuilding"...

veeter
12-08-2008, 10:44 AM
When has Kenny EVER rebuilt? The answer is never.

NLaloosh
12-08-2008, 10:49 AM
I know its not really a necessary thread but i was thinking about the Dye trade and since we seem to be rebuilding this year i wanted to look forward to the potential of the 2010 lineup.

C- Flowers
1B- Brandon Allen
2B- Lillibridge/Getz
SS- Alexi
3B- Beckham
LF- Quentin
CF- Danks/Shelby?
RF- Viciedo
DH- Fields

SP- Danks
SP- Floyd
SP- Bailey
SP- Buehrle
SP- Poreda
RP- Rusell
RP- Richard
RP- Thorton
RP- Link
RP- Derek Rodriguez
CL- Jenks

Maybe Im over optimistic but im very excited for 2010 as I honestly think a lot of these guys will pan out into good major league players. This is a very young and cheap team that could be good for a very long team.

I just laid down my bet in Vegas for the World Series Champions 2010!

tm1119
12-08-2008, 10:51 AM
IF Dye is traded, which seems to be the case, you can not deny that we are rebuilding this year. That would be trading away or not resigning 6 starters from a division winning team.(Dye, Vasquez, Swisher, Uribe, Crede, OC) And as of right now the only guy that looks like he'll be on the opening day roster from those 6 guys is Betemit and possibly Lillibridge. Seems to me like we are trying to stock up on draft picks, prospects, and money. Sounds like rebuilding to me.

Rocky Soprano
12-08-2008, 10:54 AM
IF Dye is traded, which seems to be the case, you can not deny that we are rebuilding this year. That would be trading away or not resigning 6 starters from a division winning team.(Dye, Vasquez, Swisher, Uribe, Crede, OC) And as of right now the only guy that looks like he'll be on the opening day roster from those 6 guys is Betemit and possibly Lillibridge. Seems to me like we are trying to stock up on draft picks, prospects, and money. Sounds like rebuilding to me.

Dye hasn't been traded yet, period. IF Dye is traded, we DON'T know what the return will be. It's also ONLY December 8. We have NO idea what Kenny has planned. So how about we keep the rebuilding comments to ourselves until opening day.

veeter
12-08-2008, 10:56 AM
IF Dye is traded, which seems to be the case, you can not deny that we are rebuilding this year. That would be trading away or not resigning 6 starters from a division winning team.(Dye, Vasquez, Swisher, Uribe, Crede, OC) And as of right now the only guy that looks like he'll be on the opening day roster from those 6 guys is Betemit and possibly Lillibridge. Seems to me like we are trying to stock up on draft picks, prospects, and money. Sounds like rebuilding to me.Rebuilding and shedding payroll don't have to be the same thing. Of that list, the only two that will be hard to replace are OC and Dye. In fact the Sox got better losing Javy and Swisher, IMO. Do you realize your GM cut payroll, beefed up a mediocre farm system, and put himself in position to either aquire free agents or make an impact trade? He is not rebuilding. Let him finish his plan.

Mr.1Dog
12-08-2008, 10:58 AM
IF Dye is traded, which seems to be the case, you can not deny that we are rebuilding this year. That would be trading away or not resigning 6 starters from a division winning team.(Dye, Vasquez, Swisher, Uribe, Crede, OC) And as of right now the only guy that looks like he'll be on the opening day roster from those 6 guys is Betemit and possibly Lillibridge. Seems to me like we are trying to stock up on draft picks, prospects, and money. Sounds like rebuilding to me.

Sounds to me like he is getting rid of pieces that don't fit the mold of what Kenny wants. You can call it rebuilding, or you can call it getting rid of crap players taking too much money and sucking (aside from OC).

oeo
12-08-2008, 11:00 AM
When has Kenny EVER rebuilt? The answer is never.

When has he ever had to?

You could say after 2007, but Kenny did try to start a rebuilding effort at the deadline in 2007. No one would give him what he wanted, though.

All reports have the Sox putting every veteran player out on the market. So either that means we're going to sign a big name free agent (not likely given history), or we need to face the facts and prepare for a young team next year.

EDIT: I don't think Kenny will ever use the word, 'rebuilding,' though. To me, rebuilding would be clearing house and starting over from the bottom up, like the Marlins, or the Indians at the beginning of the decade...a process that takes 3+ years. That isn't what it appears Kenny is doing. I'd call it transitioning.

tm1119
12-08-2008, 11:13 AM
Ha wow a lot of interesting comments here.

1st of all, no way in hell are we any where near a better team without Javy and Swisher. Cause we do not have any better options to replace them.

And when have we ever signed a big free agent? Not going to happen. We are not saving up money to sign some old over priced free agent. We are already close to are budget as it is. And who are we trading for? Give me some names of players at positions of need for us that are actualy on the market. No its not Peavy, and guys like Brian Robrerts are not going to make a big enough impact on this team for us to trade the select group of worthy prospects that we have.

Kenny has already said that he wants the team to be younger and faster and it seems apparent that hes going to get that done at the expense of this upcoming season. Its pretty obvious that he is trying to stock the minors with players that are almost MLB ready.

Lastly, I am all for what Kenny is doing here. So dont jump all over me thinking im bashing the Sox or Kenny himself. So you can call this offseason plan whatever you want, but im calling it rebuilding.

doublem23
12-08-2008, 11:13 AM
I don't think Flowers is going to be a catcher with us. He was slotted as a catcher with the Braves out of neccessity (no DH), but in the American League, I doubt it.

btrain929
12-08-2008, 11:18 AM
I don't think Flowers is going to be a catcher with us. He was slotted as a catcher with the Braves out of neccessity (no DH), but in the American League, I doubt it.

Kenny described him as agile for his size with a good arm, and says he'll be an All Star Catcher, and switching Flowers' position is the "farthest thing" from his mind. I'm not saying I'm disagreeing with you, but I think Flowers will get every single chance to play C in the minors to improve. We obviously know he's not afraid to put catchers back there that are not defense-first....

Marqhead
12-08-2008, 11:18 AM
Young and fast is the new old and slow.

tm1119
12-08-2008, 11:21 AM
Kenny described him as agile for his size with a good arm, and says he'll be an All Star Catcher, and switching Flowers' position is the "farthest thing" from his mind. I'm not saying I'm disagreeing with you, but I think Flowers will get every single chance to play C in the minors to improve. We obviously know he's not afraid to put catchers back there that are not defense-first....

Yeah unless hes terrible behind the plate he'll be a catcher. The difference between offensive #'s as an all-star C and all-star DH is pretty big.

chisoxmike
12-08-2008, 12:20 PM
http://www.whitesoxinteractive.com/vbulletin/showthread.php?t=73460&highlight=2008+lineup


Funniest part about that thread was that it was in 2006. 08 seemed like it was far off in the future. Here we are... weeks away from 2009.

Think about that next time you're high.

tm1119
12-08-2008, 12:33 PM
Yeah its funny to look back at that and laugh and hell we might even be able to do that with this thread but i think we are in a very different situation now. All of the guys I have listed are in the White Sox plan for sure. They will be either traded or be playing for us in the near future. The level of talent from the 06 thread was terrible, even back then. These young guys we have now are very talented and proven at every level they have been at. Yeah the potential for 1/2 of those guys to fail miserably is pretty good but even if only 1/2 make it thats still a very god nucleus that woyld be very cheap for us to sign other pieces around them.

Zisk77
12-08-2008, 01:15 PM
When has he ever had to?

You could say after 2007, but Kenny did try to start a rebuilding effort at the deadline in 2007. No one would give him what he wanted, though.

All reports have the Sox putting every veteran player out on the market. So either that means we're going to sign a big name free agent (not likely given history), or we need to face the facts and prepare for a young team next year.

EDIT: I don't think Kenny will ever use the word, 'rebuilding,' though. To me, rebuilding would be clearing house and starting over from the bottom up, like the Marlins, or the Indians at the beginning of the decade...a process that takes 3+ years. That isn't what it appears Kenny is doing. I'd call it transitioning.


I think he is putting every name out there in the hopes someone acyually bites on Thome or konerko so he can keep Dye. Dye is being shopped because he has the most value and doesn't have a full NTC.

brumski
12-08-2008, 01:27 PM
that looks like a solid base to me...

on a side note, why does a person who only states that it's too early to talk about these things, check into this board to begin with? I just never understand why some people are so negative about people speculating on a speculation board. It is truly annoying...

Domeshot17
12-08-2008, 01:29 PM
Half those guys don't have a chance to be ready by 2010

Sam Spade
12-08-2008, 01:33 PM
Quentin in left and Viciedo in right? Ok.

Zisk77
12-08-2008, 01:49 PM
that looks like a solid base to me...

on a side note, why does a person who only states that it's too early to talk about these things, check into this board to begin with? I just never understand why some people are so negative about people speculating on a speculation board. It is truly annoying...

There is no place for sanity or logic on this board, I think u should be banned for trying. :D:

hi im skot
12-08-2008, 01:51 PM
on a side note, why does a person who only states that it's too early to talk about these things, check into this board to begin with? I just never understand why some people are so negative about people speculating on a speculation board. It is truly annoying...

I prefer realistic speculation, but that's just me...

:shrug:

tm1119
12-08-2008, 02:20 PM
I prefer realistic speculation, but that's just me...

:shrug:

Well please give us some of your realism than. How do you explain letting 6 of your starters walk with no one to replace them except prospects? A lot of people here seem to put Kenny up on some God of GM's level. Like all of a sudden he is gonna pull off some miracle trade that is gonna make this team have a legit shot at a world series. Because right now i really dont see any way of us even winning the Central next year.

WHILEPITCH
12-08-2008, 02:22 PM
I don't think Flowers is going to be a catcher with us. He was slotted as a catcher with the Braves out of neccessity (no DH), but in the American League, I doubt it.

That means he's really bad at it. Is he THAT bad? Even to the point where he cant be a backup C and do other things?

Rocky Soprano
12-08-2008, 02:22 PM
Because right now i really dont see any way of us even winning the Central next year.

The realism is that it's only December 8. Do you realize that, right?

Please tell us what else you see in that crystall ball of yours?

CashMan
12-08-2008, 02:25 PM
Well please give us some of your realism than. How do you explain letting 6 of your starters walk with no one to replace them except prospects? A lot of people here seem to put Kenny up on some God of GM's level. Like all of a sudden he is gonna pull off some miracle trade that is gonna make this team have a legit shot at a world series. Because right now i really dont see any way of us even winning the Central next year.


Crede---Hurt most of the year
Uribe--We have had many discussions on how much he sucks
OC--Was suppose to be some great glove at SS never happend
Javy---is a #4 pitcher in the AL cannot win big games, but to some people is a GOD because he can pitch 200 innings, although cannot win a big game.
Swisher--was suppose to be a OBP leadoff hitter, didnt work out and sucked
Dye--I guess he is the 6th person you are talking about, if Kenny wants to get younger and build the team around pitching and speed, it might be smart to make the trade for Homer. Although he is still a WhiteSox ATM.

CashMan
12-08-2008, 02:27 PM
God of GM's level. Like all of a sudden he is gonna pull off some miracle trade that is gonna make this team have a legit shot at a world series.

Winning 2005 WS
Trading Freddy who couldn't pitch for Floyd
Trading McCarthy for Danks
Signing TCM
Trading for TCQ

I would say he is a God of GMs. If he was given 150+mill like the Boston GM, I would LOVE to see what Kenny could do. What is all the bitching about?

tm1119
12-08-2008, 02:30 PM
The realism is that it's only December 8. Do you realize that, right?

Please tell us what else you see in that crystall ball of yours?

And I understand. But for all of the people who are saying that Kenny isnt trying to rebuild the team with young unproven talent then please just give me some possibilities here. I know you arent GM's but just throw some names out there of players the Sox have a realistic chance of getting that will make this team at least as good as it was last year. Cause I look and just dont see any. But like I said give me some ideas and if youre right I will have no problem argeeing with you, but right now to say "Just trust Kenny, he knows what hes doing" is pretty naive.

Once again I actually LIKE the moves Kenny is making right now. Im not bitching at all. I would just like an explanation of how this isnt rebuilding and how Kenny plans on making this team competitive in 09.

Domeshot17
12-08-2008, 02:33 PM
Winning 2005 WS
Trading Freddy who couldn't pitch for Floyd
Trading McCarthy for Danks
Signing TCM
Trading for TCQ

I would say he is a God of GMs. If he was given 150+mill like the Boston GM, I would LOVE to see what Kenny could do. What is all the bitching about?

This is where most people get pissed. Kenny is a good GM, he isn't awesome, he isn't top 3 or 5 but easily top 10. He has 1 world title and 2 playoff appearances in his tenure. He won the big one, but really, he doesn't have the track record of winning to be considered one of the best.

Also, he has made plenty of trades that did not work out in our favor, so before praising him for his steals, admit he has fumbled his fair share as well. And with Quentin, it was a great trade, but I would wait and see how good Carter ends up and if Quentin comes back from his injury at the same level.

Rocky Soprano
12-08-2008, 02:34 PM
And I understand. But for all of the people who are saying that Kenny isnt trying to rebuild the team with young unproven talent then please just give me some possibilities here. I know you arent GM's but just throw some names out there of players the Sox have a realistic chance of getting that will make this team at least as good as it was last year. Cause I look and just dont see any. But like I said give me some ideas and if youre right I will have no problem argeeing with you, but right now to say "Just trust Kenny, he knows what hes doing" is pretty naive.

The truth is no one here can say that Kenny is doing. We don't know if he is rebuilding and we don't know if he is going to land a big name. The only thing we can do is sit back and watch, I do think Kenny has earned at least that. It's only December and I think it's nuts to say that we are in a rebuilding mode.

BadBobbyJenks
12-08-2008, 02:37 PM
This is where most people get pissed. Kenny is a good GM, he isn't awesome, he isn't top 3 or 5 but easily top 10. He has 1 world title and 2 playoff appearances in his tenure. He won the big one, but really, he doesn't have the track record of winning to be considered one of the best.

Also, he has made plenty of trades that did not work out in our favor, so before praising him for his steals, admit he has fumbled his fair share as well. And with Quentin, it was a great trade, but I would wait and see how good Carter ends up and if Quentin comes back from his injury at the same level.

Curious to your top 5?

russ99
12-08-2008, 02:37 PM
And I understand. But for all of the people who are saying that Kenny isnt trying to rebuild the team with young unproven talent then please just give me some possibilities here. I know you arent GM's but just throw some names out there of players the Sox have a realistic chance of getting that will make this team at least as good as it was last year. Cause I look and just dont see any. But like I said give me some ideas and if youre right I will have no problem argeeing with you, but right now to say "Just trust Kenny, he knows what hes doing" is pretty naive.

Like myself, you can state your disgust with this point in the process, but you have to wait and see where we are in mid February. Kenny's keeping things close to the vest after the Hunter/Cabrera leaks last season.

He really could go two ways, continue this "rebuilding" and deal our vets for more prospects or maybe deal one or two more guys and aim high in getting quality major leaguers back and/or filling in with free agents. I very much doubt the roster will be the same as it is now.

If KW continues to deal off vets and not being in major league help to fill our obvious holes, and basically give up on 2009, I'll be just as steamed as you are come Spring Training, and I'll severely cut back my planned Sox expenditures this season.

I'd be real interested in Kenny's comments and reception at Sox Fest if he continues down the "Kids Can Play" path...

tm1119
12-08-2008, 02:38 PM
The truth is no one here can say that Kenny is doing. We don't know if he is rebuilding and we don't know if he is going to land a big name. The only thing we can do is sit back and watch, I do think Kenny has earned at least that. It's only December and I think it's nuts to say that we are in a rebuilding mode.

This is my point exactly. You seem to be a pretty knowledgeable person and baseball fan so give me some examples of this "big name." Do you honestly think we are going to go out and sign Manny, Sabathia, Tex, or anyone of that nature? Cause if you do i wouldnt hold my breath on that one.

Konerko05
12-08-2008, 02:40 PM
The truth is no one here can say that Kenny is doing. We don't know if he is rebuilding and we don't know if he is going to land a big name. The only thing we can do is sit back and watch, I do think Kenny has earned at least that. It's only December and I think it's nuts to say that we are in a rebuilding mode.

You are on a White Sox message board, in the middle of winter, during the GM meetings, in the "What's the score forum." What else did you expect to find besides speculation? Sitting back and watching is not as fun, and I'm pretty sure you agree since you're also on this forum speculating.

Bucky F. Dent
12-08-2008, 02:43 PM
It's December 8th...


Kill Joy!:D:

Bucky F. Dent
12-08-2008, 02:43 PM
Yes...of 2008!!!!


You, too! :D::D:

Rocky Soprano
12-08-2008, 02:44 PM
This is my point exactly. You seem to be a pretty knowledgeable person and baseball fan so give me some examples of this "big name." Do you honestly think we are going to go out and sign Manny, Sabathia, Tex, or anyone of that nature? Cause if you do i wouldnt hold my breath on that one.

I don't think they will go out and sign Manny, Sabathia, or Tex. But I also don't think that we are in a rebuild mode. I do think that Kenny wants to give Ozzie what he's been asking for. A younger, faster team. IF Dye gets traded, I can't imagine starting the season with Quentin, Anderson, and Owens as our starts in the outfield. I can see Quentin and Anderson. You might be right, we might be rebuilding, but don't you think its a tad early to say that just yet?

Rocky Soprano
12-08-2008, 02:46 PM
You are on a White Sox message board, in the middle of winter, during the GM meetings, in the "What's the score forum." What else did you expect to find besides speculation? Sitting back and watching is not as fun, and I'm pretty sure you agree since you're also on this forum speculating.

I have no problems with speculation. I enjoy reading possible trades. But to say we are in a rebuilding mode seems to be more than speculation to me.

hi im skot
12-08-2008, 02:53 PM
Well please give us some of your realism than. How do you explain letting 6 of your starters walk with no one to replace them except prospects? A lot of people here seem to put Kenny up on some God of GM's level. Like all of a sudden he is gonna pull off some miracle trade that is gonna make this team have a legit shot at a world series. Because right now i really dont see any way of us even winning the Central next year.

I was more speaking of the fact that it's next to impossible to even guess what the lineup will look like in 2010, let alone next year.

Listen, I don't necessarily agree with everything KW does, but he's shown countless times that he's a hell of a lot smarter than any of us.

And again, it's DECEMBER 8TH. You might have noticed next to NO ONE has made any moves yet.


Give Kenny some time, and maybe even try having a little faith.

btrain929
12-08-2008, 02:53 PM
Well please give us some of your realism than. How do you explain letting 6 of your starters walk with no one to replace them except prospects?

You keep saying this, but when you look at the players that are gone, it's not as drastic as you're making it out to be as far as replacing them:

-Crede had a good 1st half (I don't think it was All-Star worthy), and contributed nothing the 2nd half because of injury. Combine that with what we put up with injury-wise in '07, and we're not really losing a "starter" there. Outside of 2006, replacing Crede or coming close enough to replacing him is not that hard. His back turned his defense from all-world to bad. Fields for 1 year (and further if he does well), and Viciedo from there on (if Fields isn't the long-term answer).
-Uribe was removed as a starter after '07, and only started because Crede was injured. He did well as a fill-in, but that was his role: utility, not as a starter. We have Betemit. Done.
-Replacing Swisher, his .219 avg, and his mediocre at-best defense in CF isn't hard to replace. Absolute worst case scenario, BA would give us .230-.240 avg with 15-20 bombs and top notch defense. But hopefully we will upgrade there.
-Cabrera put up #'s of 8HR/57RBI/.281/.334/19SB's. With Ramirez moving over to short, is it completely out of the question to suggest Getz can put up #'s of 6HR/40RBI/.265/.325/15SB's? If he can do anything close to that, Cabrera has been replaced for a fraction of the cost.
-Vazquez put up a 4.67 ERA. I agree that I don't want both of Marquez & Richard in the rotation, but I would hope one of them could put up an ERA around 5. And don't give me the whole "200IP" crap, but Gavin Floyd, in his first FULL year in the bigs, just put up 200IP+. If they got the talent and can perform, 200IP is obtainable. Me personally, I hope Marquez and his sinker impresses during spring training, he's our #5, Richard is the long man out of the pen, and we sign/trade for a #4. So I agree we don't have a replacement as of right now for Javy.
-The only way Dye would be replaced is if Fields sticks at 3B and Dayan goes to RF (or a FA OF is brought in). Dye is obviously better than Dayan, but if Viciedo's power and arm are as good as we are hearing, than no way is Dye 9MIL better than Viciedo.

So bottom line, we're not losing 6 starters from a World Series team or from a 100-win team. It's 6 starters where the majority of them didn't perform well on a team that was lucky to play in a division that was below average that particular year. Also, keep in mind that at one point or another, we HAVE to find out if these kids can play on the big league level. If we go young and find out none of them (Getz, Fields, Lillibridge, BA) can stick, now we know we need to go in a diff direction for '10, and have money to help with those holes ($$ saved from this offseason so far, plus $$ saved after '09 with Thome, Contreras, Macdougal, Dotel (if not resigned), and possibly Dye off the books.

Konerko05
12-08-2008, 02:53 PM
I have no problems with speculation. I enjoy reading possible trades. But to say we are in a rebuilding mode seems to be more than speculation to me.

"Rebuilding" has such a negative connotation.

Williams is doing what is absolutely necessary.

I made a long post about this in the Vazquez Trade Poll thread. Williams is re-tooling. He basically had to turn over 7 lineup spots, and 4 rotation spots. Danks, Quentin, Ramirez, Floyd were the start.

Replacing all those spots with high priced veterans is impossible. Williams is trying to create a young core. Veterans will be added in the positions the young core can not successfully occupy.

These moves aren't just for 2009, but also for the future.

Winning a World Series and holding on to the core put Williams in this position. I'm confident Williams can make the transition while keeping the team competitive. No one can deny this is an interesting offseason.

Domeshot17
12-08-2008, 02:56 PM
Curious to your top 5?

Not sure how I would rank them, but I would say my top would include Epstein Gillick Terry Ryan Jon Schueholz & Jocketty. Kenny to me falls into the next tier of with himself, Shapiro, Dombrowski Kevin Towers, Beinfest and Beane.


For every Quentin he finds, there is a trade for a Nick Swisher that cost us 3 of our top 5 prospects, including numbers 1 and 2. Gio and DLS would still be 2 and 3 in our system behind only Beckham if they were still around. It is trades like these and the lack of strong post season appearances that keep him out of the top 5. I know people will say IF ONLY HE COULD SPEND LIKE BOSTON DOES, but truth be told, he had several years of spending more then almost 3/4 the league, and he didn't do a thing with it. He built a disaster in 2007, a patchwork playoff team in a bad division in 2008, and I think a better GM could have done more with 100 mil than he did.

Rocky Soprano
12-08-2008, 02:59 PM
"Rebuilding" has such a negative connotation.

Williams is doing what is absolutely necessary.

I made a long post about this in the Vazquez Trade Poll thread. Williams is re-tooling. He basically had to turn over 7 lineup spots, and 4 rotation spots. Danks, Quentin, Ramirez, Floyd were the start.

Replacing all those spots with high priced veterans is impossible. Williams is trying to create a young core. Veterans will be added in the positions the young core can not successfully occupy.

These moves aren't just for 2009, but also for the future.

Winning a World Series and holding on to the core put Williams in this position. I'm confident Williams can make the transition while keeping the team competitive. No one can deny this is an interesting offseason.

Now this is a great post. Agree completely with you.

GAsoxfan
12-08-2008, 03:00 PM
"Rebuilding" has such a negative connotation.

It definitely does. Rebuilding doesn't necessarily mean losing. The Twins were "rebuilding" last year after losing Hunter and trading Santana, and it worked out pretty well for them.

CashMan
12-08-2008, 03:03 PM
Not sure how I would rank them, but I would say my top would include Epstein Gillick Terry Ryan Jon Schueholz & Jocketty. Kenny to me falls into the next tier of with himself, Shapiro, Dombrowski Kevin Towers, Beinfest and Beane.


For every Quentin he finds, there is a trade for a Nick Swisher that cost us 3 of our top 5 prospects, including numbers 1 and 2. Gio and DLS would still be 2 and 3 in our system behind only Beckham if they were still around. It is trades like these and the lack of strong post season appearances that keep him out of the top 5. I know people will say IF ONLY HE COULD SPEND LIKE BOSTON DOES, but truth be told, he had several years of spending more then almost 3/4 the league, and he didn't do a thing with it. He built a disaster in 2007, a patchwork playoff team in a bad division in 2008, and I think a better GM could have done more with 100 mil than he did.

Hmmmm....You say we 3 of our 5 prospects, what has Gio or DLS done with Oakland? Wasn't DLS in rookie ball when Kenny traded him? Until a prospect has done something, don't bitch about him trading them away. To me prospects are like scratch off lottery tickets.

btrain929
12-08-2008, 03:06 PM
Not sure how I would rank them, but I would say my top would include Epstein Gillick Terry Ryan Jon Schueholz & Jocketty. Kenny to me falls into the next tier of with himself, Shapiro, Dombrowski Kevin Towers, Beinfest and Beane.

1) Your spelling of his name was not even close.
2) He's not even GM anymore. He is team president, while Frank Wren is the Braves' GM.
3) You're putting KW in the same category as Kevin Towers?

All that nonsense makes me wanna have a few :gulp::gulp:

tm1119
12-08-2008, 03:09 PM
I agree with the whole rebuilding thing not having to be a bad thing. Like I said I like the moves so far, its the beginning of building a bright future. But the Twins reference just doesnt fit because theyre minors system is and always has been 100x better than ours and their young talent was a lot further along than ours is now. Kenny had to make some sacrifices to our farm system to bring us a World Series but the fact of the matter is that we should have been retooling(there i didnt say rebuilding) right after the championship, not chasing another 1 that just wasnt going to happen.

champagne030
12-08-2008, 03:10 PM
Hmmmm....You say we 3 of our 5 prospects, what has Gio or DLS done with Oakland? Wasn't DLS in rookie ball when Kenny traded him? Until a prospect has done something, don't bitch about him trading them away. To me prospects are like scratch off lottery tickets.

We should just trade Beckham this July for someone like Joey Gathright.

btrain929
12-08-2008, 03:11 PM
I agree with the whole rebuilding thing not having to be a bad thing. Like I said I like the moves so far, its the beginning of building a bright future. But the Twins reference just doesnt fit because theyre minors system is and always has been 100x better than ours and their young talent was a lot further along than ours is now. Kenny had to make some sacrifices to our farm system to bring us a World Series but the fact of the matter is that we should have been retooling(there i didnt say rebuilding) right after the championship, not chasing another 1 that just wasnt going to happen.

1) Retooling the very next year after a World Series championship? Good luck with that....
2) Did you happen to watch the 1st half of 2006? We DOMINATED, and looked very well on our way to another playoff appearance and a deep run at a back-to-back feat.

hi im skot
12-08-2008, 03:15 PM
the fact of the matter is that we should have been retooling(there i didnt say rebuilding) right after the championship, not chasing another 1 that just wasnt going to happen.

Something about hindsight...

The Sox should have made the playoffs. They fell apart at the end. I have no idea what you're talking about in saying that it "just wasn't going to happen."

Domeshot17
12-08-2008, 03:15 PM
1) Your spelling of his name was not even close.
2) He's not even GM anymore. He is team president, while Frank Wren is the Braves' GM.
3) You're putting KW in the same category as Kevin Towers?

All that nonsense makes me wanna have a few :gulp::gulp:

Missed an H and R, sorry

I know he isn't a GM, but I also am not doing my rankings so much as of right now but over a period of time. It would be like if someone asked me what coach I would rather have then Lovie Smith, I would probably still list Bill Cowher.

Kevin Towers was a VERY HIGHLY REGARDED GM for a while. If you asked a lot of writers to rank this list before the season he probably falls into atleast half of their top 5. He is coming off a very disappointing year, but hell, in 2007 we were coming off a very bad year. Kevin Towers has made some great moves, and does a lot with a limited budget in SD.

but I know, Kenny is immortal, why should I think anyone else is better. Kenny is clearly the best GM in baseball, no one else is better, this is the typical yes man response you guys want, correct.

Konerko05
12-08-2008, 03:16 PM
1) Retooling the very next year after a World Series championship? Good luck with that....
2) Did you happen to watch the 1st half of 2006? We DOMINATED, and looked very well on our way to another playoff appearance and a deep run at a back-to-back feat.

Correct on both points.

The 2006 team was absolutely stacked. Winning another World Series was a very good possibility.

The long 2005 season unfortunately took a huge toll on the pitching staff.

btrain929
12-08-2008, 03:17 PM
but I know, Kenny is immortal, why should I think anyone else is better. Kenny is clearly the best GM in baseball, no one else is better, this is the typical yes man response you guys want, correct.

Good, now don't let it happen again.

Domeshot17
12-08-2008, 03:21 PM
Hmmmm....You say we 3 of our 5 prospects, what has Gio or DLS done with Oakland? Wasn't DLS in rookie ball when Kenny traded him? Until a prospect has done something, don't bitch about him trading them away. To me prospects are like scratch off lottery tickets.

I don't even know how to counter this because this is such a terrible terrible statement. The package of Gio DLS and Sweeney would probably be enough to land us Jake Peavy right now, if not, it would be very close. You think prospects are so worthless, then stay out of these conversations because you can't come to a battle of wits, throw out statements like this and show everyone you are unarmed.

QUICK, I HEAR THE METS WANT TO GET RID OF CASTILLO. WE NEED A 2B LETS TRADE BECKHAM FOR HIM

WE NEED A BACK UP CATCHER, I HOPE A PACKAGE OF BRANDON ALLEN AND POREDA CAN NET US ONE!!!

CashMan
12-08-2008, 03:34 PM
I don't even know how to counter this because this is such a terrible terrible statement. The package of Gio DLS and Sweeney would probably be enough to land us Jake Peavy right now, if not, it would be very close. You think prospects are so worthless, then stay out of these conversations because you can't come to a battle of wits, throw out statements like this and show everyone you are unarmed.

QUICK, I HEAR THE METS WANT TO GET RID OF CASTILLO. WE NEED A 2B LETS TRADE BECKHAM FOR HIM

WE NEED A BACK UP CATCHER, I HOPE A PACKAGE OF BRANDON ALLEN AND POREDA CAN NET US ONE!!!


Whoa Whoa, I have been for everything Kenny has done this off season. I think you are insane to think DLS, Sweeney, and Gio could net you Peavy. A pitcher who has 1 pitch, who got rocked, a corner outfielder who isn't a leadoff or has power, and a lower level prospect who hasn't done anything. I said prospects are like lotto tickets. Perhaps Beckham is a winner, IDK. I hope so though.

hi im skot
12-08-2008, 03:37 PM
This thread is ridiculous.

Domeshot17
12-08-2008, 03:39 PM
Whoa Whoa, I have been for everything Kenny has done this off season. I think you are insane to think DLS, Sweeney, and Gio could net you Peavy. A pitcher who has 1 pitch, who got rocked, a corner outfielder who isn't a leadoff or has power, and a lower level prospect who hasn't done anything. I said prospects are like lotto tickets. Perhaps Beckham is a winner, IDK. I hope so though.

To give you an idea

Last year, DLS was a top 50 prospect, and Gio was top 60. Right Now, most do not have any sox prospect, including Beckham, in the top 60. That is how much we gave up for Nick freaking Swisher.

CashMan
12-08-2008, 03:42 PM
To give you an idea

Last year, DLS was a top 50 prospect, and Gio was top 60. Right Now, most do not have any sox prospect, including Beckham, in the top 60. That is how much we gave up for Nick freaking Swisher.


Ok.....What did they do last year for the A's, and what will they do this year for them?

russ99
12-08-2008, 03:44 PM
"Rebuilding" has such a negative connotation.

Williams is doing what is absolutely necessary.

I made a long post about this in the Vazquez Trade Poll thread. Williams is re-tooling. He basically had to turn over 7 lineup spots, and 4 rotation spots. Danks, Quentin, Ramirez, Floyd were the start.

Replacing all those spots with high priced veterans is impossible. Williams is trying to create a young core. Veterans will be added in the positions the young core can not successfully occupy.

These moves aren't just for 2009, but also for the future.

Winning a World Series and holding on to the core put Williams in this position. I'm confident Williams can make the transition while keeping the team competitive. No one can deny this is an interesting offseason.

First off, I see where you're coming from. I do think it's smart to re-tool a team on the fly to get younger and replace older and non-producing players.

The problem I have is not one of this year's acquisitions can be counted on to play a starting role on a "competitive" 2009 team or either be considered one of the "young core". There's too much risk involved. Who's to say more than 1 or 2 of these new guys can even make a big league roster??

I have no problems taking things on faith from Kenny, but when he also asks me to believe in the future of this team from Sox scouts who have been wrong so many times, I get concerned. This sounds like the Pirates, not the White Sox...

The question you should ask is why the Sox are taking chances on so many borderline prospects and A-ball players? Why are we pencilling in an 18 year old Cuban guy at 3B? Why aren't we acquiring guys like Carlos who excelled in AAA, are stuck below a vet on their team and seemingly are ready for the bigs? Agreed, Homer fits that profile...

I think Kenny might be on the right path for 2011-2015, but this does nothing for the ticket-buying Sox fan for next season, expecting to have a fun summer watching a contending team.

Hopefully Kenny gets us a few big-leaguers in the next few months to take away some of the uncertainties of the current kid-laden lineup and pitching staff...

whitesox901
12-08-2008, 03:45 PM
2010 line up:

Beckham: C, 1B, 2B, 3B, SS, LF, CF, RF, DH

We dont even need the other 8

CashMan
12-08-2008, 03:56 PM
First off, I see where you're coming from. I do think it's smart to re-tool a team on the fly to get younger and replace older and non-producing players.

The problem I have is not one of this year's acquisitions can be counted on to play a starting role on a "competitive" 2009 team or either be considered one of the "young core". There's too much risk involved. Who's to say more than 1 or 2 of these new guys can even make a big league roster??



I have no problems taking things on faith from Kenny, but when he also asks me to believe in the future of this team from Sox scouts who have been wrong so many times, I get concerned. This sounds like the Pirates, not the White Sox...

The question you should ask is why the Sox are taking chances on so many borderline prospects and A-ball players? Why are we pencilling in an 18 year old Cuban guy at 3B? Why aren't we acquiring guys like Carlos who excelled in AAA, are stuck below a vet on their team and seemingly are ready for the bigs? Agreed, Homer fits that profile...

I think Kenny might be on the right path for 2011-2015, but this does nothing for the ticket-buying Sox fan for next season, expecting to have a fun summer watching a contending team.

Hopefully Kenny gets us a few big-leaguers in the next few months to take away some of the uncertainties of the current kid-laden lineup and pitching staff...


So far, Kenny has gotten rid of a Utility player in Uribe, who hit like .240 for most of his years with the Sox. Swisher who his .219 for the Sox. Javy who although pitched 200 innings, couldn't win a big game for us. Ohh yeah....and it is still early December. If this was February, I would be OK with people being uneasy with what is going on.

russ99
12-08-2008, 03:57 PM
So far, Kenny has gotten rid of a Utility player in Uribe, who hit like .240 for most of his years with the Sox. Swisher who his .219 for the Sox. Javy who although pitched 200 innings, couldn't win a big game for us. Ohh yeah....and it is still early December. If this was February, I would be OK with people being uneasy with what is going on.

Like I said, we'll see what Kenny does next... :D:

HomeFish
12-08-2008, 04:16 PM
HomeFish say: "Man who believe in Sox prospects is a fool".

chisoxmike
12-08-2008, 04:16 PM
So far, Kenny has gotten rid of a Utility player in Uribe, who hit like .240 for most of his years with the Sox. Swisher who his .219 for the Sox. Javy who although pitched 200 innings, couldn't win a big game for us. Ohh yeah....and it is still early December. If this was February, I would be OK with people being uneasy with what is going on.

Yeah. So far KW has dumped the guys a lot of people on here wanted gone. He's cut the dead weight off the team and acquired players that will help down the road (hopefully) and now we'll see if he acquires some players that will impact 2009.

If in February we have the team that we do today, I'll be pissed.

CashMan
12-08-2008, 04:17 PM
Yeah. So far KW has dumped the guys a lot of people on here wanted gone. He's cut the dead weight off the team and acquired players that will help down the road (hopefully) and now we'll see if he acquires some players that will impact 2009.

If in February we have the team that we do today, I'll be pissed.


Agree 100%!

Rocky Soprano
12-08-2008, 04:18 PM
HomeFish say: "Man who believe in Sox prospects is a fool".

"Man who believe anything HomeFish say is a bigger fool."

voodoochile
12-08-2008, 04:26 PM
So far, Kenny has gotten rid of a Utility player in Uribe, who hit like .240 for most of his years with the Sox. Swisher who his .219 for the Sox. Javy who although pitched 200 innings, couldn't win a big game for us. Ohh yeah....and it is still early December. If this was February, I would be OK with people being uneasy with what is going on.

You'd think that after the 04-05 off season and last year's off season, people would learn, but I swear it's getting worse. In fact the people who are freaking out this year and screaming for blood are older and normally calmer than the people who were doing it (for the most part - Lip notwithstanding) last year and then we were coming off a 90 loss season.

It would be disgusting if it weren't so damned funny...

doublem23
12-08-2008, 04:31 PM
Yeah. So far KW has dumped the guys a lot of people on here wanted gone. He's cut the dead weight off the team and acquired players that will help down the road (hopefully) and now we'll see if he acquires some players that will impact 2009.

If in February we have the team that we do today, I'll be pissed.

This kind of level headed thinking shouldn't be allowed in this thread.

Here's my 2110 White Sox Lineup

C - Carlton Fisk, III
1B - Frank Thomas, v. 3.0 - Much like the Terminator, he is a titanium cyborg with living flesh... Hopefully this kid makes us forget the tragic Frank Thomas 2.0 explosion of '94 when it looked like we'd go all the way
2B - Squeaky, the genetically altered baseball playing dolphin
3B - Robin Ventura clone
SS - Oney Oswaldo Guillen, IV - Ozzie's great grandson
LF - Carlos Quentin's head in a jar on top of a HR-hitting robot
CF - To pronounce his name right, I'd have to rip out your tongue
RF - Mary Wilson - 1st female baseball player in White Sox history, I assume she will be like that chick in A League of Their Own

Mr.1Dog
12-08-2008, 04:37 PM
This kind of level headed thinking shouldn't be allowed in this thread.

Here's my 2110 White Sox Lineup

C - Carlton Fisk, III
1B - Frank Thomas, v. 3.0 - Much like the Terminator, he is a titanium cyborg with living flesh... Hopefully this kid makes us forget the tragic Frank Thomas 2.0 explosion of '94 when it looked like we'd go all the way
2B - Squeaky, the genetically altered baseball playing dolphin
3B - Robin Ventura clone
SS - Oney Oswaldo Guillen, IV - Ozzie's great grandson
LF - Carlos Quentin's head in a jar on top of a HR-hitting robot
CF - To pronounce his name right, I'd have to rip out your tongue
RF - Mary Wilson - 1st female baseball player in White Sox history, I assume she will be like that chick in A League of Their Own

Hell no. Sign up for Marla Hooch's ("What a hitter.") offspring.

Konerko05
12-08-2008, 04:53 PM
First off, I see where you're coming from. I do think it's smart to re-tool a team on the fly to get younger and replace older and non-producing players.

The problem I have is not one of this year's acquisitions can be counted on to play a starting role on a "competitive" 2009 team or either be considered one of the "young core". There's too much risk involved. Who's to say more than 1 or 2 of these new guys can even make a big league roster??

I have no problems taking things on faith from Kenny, but when he also asks me to believe in the future of this team from Sox scouts who have been wrong so many times, I get concerned. This sounds like the Pirates, not the White Sox...

The question you should ask is why the Sox are taking chances on so many borderline prospects and A-ball players? Why are we pencilling in an 18 year old Cuban guy at 3B? Why aren't we acquiring guys like Carlos who excelled in AAA, are stuck below a vet on their team and seemingly are ready for the bigs? Agreed, Homer fits that profile...

I think Kenny might be on the right path for 2011-2015, but this does nothing for the ticket-buying Sox fan for next season, expecting to have a fun summer watching a contending team.

Hopefully Kenny gets us a few big-leaguers in the next few months to take away some of the uncertainties of the current kid-laden lineup and pitching staff...

So you agree with the plan, but have a problem with the execution.

Let's just take a look at your signature for a second.....

Out: Crede, Uribe, Griffey, Hall, Swisher, Vazquez, Logan, Cabrera
In: Nix, Betemit, Marquez, Viciedo, Lillibridge, Van Benschoten, Stewart (maybe)

You forgot Flowers, Gilmore, and Rodriguez. If you only listed players who will be on the 2009 roster, Van Benschoten belongs no where on your list.

Moving on, who on your "out list" did you want the Sox to retain?

So far this offseason Williams has acquired a speedy utility infielder, a platoon partner for fields, a huge 3B prospect almost MLB ready, our probable 5th starter, AJ or Thome's replacement, a young hard throwing lefty, and a young 3B prospect. All while shedding mass amounts of payroll. This payroll will most likely be used to fill in the pieces.

I'd love the Sox to acquire players like Quentin every offseason. The problem is a trade like that is rarely available. Quentin wasn't just a prospect who tore up AAA on the verge of stardom. He was an injury prone player coming off shoulder surgery and a down season.

Also keep in mind the rebuilding of our farm system. Williams has been adding much needed depth in the organization. Here is a depth chart I wrote up.....

1B/DH- Viciedo, Allen, Flowers
2B- Getz, Ramirez, Lillibridge, Beckham, Nix
SS- Ramirez, Lillibridge, Beckham
3B- Fields, Betemit, Viciedo, Gilmore (A project, but recent acquisition)
LF- Quentin
CF- Anderson, Owens, Danks, Shelby
RF- Viciedo
C- Pierzynski, Flowers

The AL Central is incredibly weak right now. There is no better time to go through a semi- transitional phase.

Again, it's still mid December. I believe Williams plan is no where near complete. White Sox are getting younger, deeper, and cheaper. The organization will finally have some flexibility, and that is a very good thing.

russ99
12-08-2008, 05:07 PM
So you agree with the plan, but have a problem with the execution.

Let's just take a look at your signature for a second.....

Out: Crede, Uribe, Griffey, Hall, Swisher, Vazquez, Logan, Cabrera
In: Nix, Betemit, Marquez, Viciedo, Lillibridge, Van Benschoten, Stewart (maybe)

You forgot Flowers, Gilmore, and Rodriguez. If you only listed players who will be on the 2009 roster, Van Benschoten belongs no where on your list.

Moving on, who on your "out list" did you want the Sox to retain?

So far this offseason Williams has acquired a speedy utility infielder, a platoon partner for fields, a huge 3B prospect almost MLB ready, our probable 5th starter, AJ or Thome's replacement, a young hard throwing lefty, and a young 3B prospect. All while shedding mass amounts of payroll. This payroll will most likely be used to fill in the pieces.

I'd love the Sox to acquire players like Quentin every offseason. The problem is a trade like that is rarely available. Quentin wasn't just a prospect who tore up AAA on the verge of stardom. He was an injury prone player coming off shoulder surgery and a down season.

Also keep in mind the rebuilding of our farm system. Williams has been adding much needed depth in the organization. Here is a depth chart I wrote up.....

1B/DH- Viciedo, Allen, Flowers
2B- Getz, Ramirez, Lillibridge, Beckham, Nix
SS- Ramirez, Lillibridge, Beckham
3B- Fields, Betemit, Viciedo, Gilmore (A project, but recent acquisition)
LF- Quentin
CF- Anderson, Owens, Danks, Shelby
RF- Viciedo
C- Pierzynski, Flowers

The AL Central is incredibly weak right now. There is no better time to go through a semi- transitional phase.

Again, it's still mid December. I believe Williams plan is no where near complete. White Sox are getting younger, deeper, and cheaper. The organization will finally have some flexibility, and that is a very good thing.

Van Benschoten's on my list because he's pitched in the majors and I foresee him possibly being on the roster in 2009 at some point, unlike the Class-A guys we got from the Braves. I didn't mention the closer we got from the Yankees either.

I'm not saying we should have kept those players we dealt, but maybe Kenny could have gotten 1-2 players who could help us now, or thrown in a good prospect and a player with Swish and gotten a Yankee who can fill a spot for next season.

When Kenny says he was going to deal Vazquez to the Braves for a guy who could help us in 2009, but then the scouts talked him out of it for 2 Class-A players instead, that concerns me.

I like the depth we have in the minors, but we've had depth before and those players didn't especially pan out.

Granted we may have a Crede and Buehrle of the future in the mix, but you can't expect most to make an impact in the majors. I know some Sox fans have high hopes for Viciedo, but the Missile was 27 this season and Viciedo is only 19 and much more raw. He'll need some AAA seasoning.

Also, I'm not sure if the Sox will be adding more payroll this offseason, but that remains to be seen. Kenny may have been blowing some smoke...

We'll have to see how it all pans out.

Tragg
12-08-2008, 05:56 PM
Hmmmm....You say we 3 of our 5 prospects, what has Gio or DLS done with Oakland? Wasn't DLS in rookie ball when Kenny traded him? Until a prospect has done something, don't bitch about him trading them away. To me prospects are like scratch off lottery tickets.
By that logic, we just gave away Boone Logan and Javy to Atlanta.

Prospects have value. WE way overpaid for Swisher - that trade was much worse than the trade in which we dumped him.
One of the problems was the nutty love affair with Jerry Owens, such that we dumped Sweeney (Sweeney's limited - but he's far better than Owens or Dewayne Wise.

Konerko05
12-08-2008, 10:03 PM
Van Benschoten's on my list because he's pitched in the majors and I foresee him possibly being on the roster in 2009 at some point, unlike the Class-A guys we got from the Braves. I didn't mention the closer we got from the Yankees either.

I'm not saying we should have kept those players we dealt, but maybe Kenny could have gotten 1-2 players who could help us now, or thrown in a good prospect and a player with Swish and gotten a Yankee who can fill a spot for next season.

When Kenny says he was going to deal Vazquez to the Braves for a guy who could help us in 2009, but then the scouts talked him out of it for 2 Class-A players instead, that concerns me.

I like the depth we have in the minors, but we've had depth before and those players didn't especially pan out.

Granted we may have a Crede and Buehrle of the future in the mix, but you can't expect most to make an impact in the majors. I know some Sox fans have high hopes for Viciedo, but the Missile was 27 this season and Viciedo is only 19 and much more raw. He'll need some AAA seasoning.

Also, I'm not sure if the Sox will be adding more payroll this offseason, but that remains to be seen. Kenny may have been blowing some smoke...

We'll have to see how it all pans out.

Benschoten was signed to fill out the AAA rotation. He is not expected to sniff the 2009 roster. Although he is a former first rounder so a miraculous turn around would be a huge bonus.

To be fair, Kenny did get two players from the Yankees expected to fill a spot in 2009. Betemit will platoon with Fields at 3B. I'm not crazy about Betemit, but a Fields/Betemit platoon could put up pretty decent numbers. They would also be holding the fort down for Viciedo if the Sox keep him at 3B.

Marquez is expected to fill the back end of the rotation. The guy has talent, but fell off last season. Williams must see something in the kid. Williams also has a strong track record dealing with pitching.

In regards to Williams taking the 2 class A players for Vazquez....
I'm guessing the ML ready player is marginal at best. Getting marginal players because they are ML ready isn't really progress. Those are quick fixes that will need to replaced within a year or two. I'd rather take a player with greater upside who can actually make an impact at the major league level.

As far as our minor league system goes, I have more confidence now than I've had in past years. Scouting and development seems to be taking a turn for the better.

I'm not expecting Williams to make huge splashes, but I don't believe that he won't spend any more money if the team needs it. Again, I'm going to wait until his plan is complete.

sullythered
12-09-2008, 02:38 AM
By that logic, we just gave away Boone Logan and Javy to Atlanta.

Prospects have value. WE way overpaid for Swisher - that trade was much worse than the trade in which we dumped him.
One of the problems was the nutty love affair with Jerry Owens, such that we dumped Sweeney (Sweeney's limited - but he's far better than Owens or Dewayne Wise.
I have absolutely no love for Jerry Owens, but I don't think Sweeney is any better than he is. He's a smidge better hitter, but both have NO power and Owens is way way faster.

Konerko05
12-09-2008, 02:51 AM
I have absolutely no love for Jerry Owens, but I don't think Sweeney is any better than he is. He's a smidge better hitter, but both have NO power and Owens is way way faster.

Sweeney has already hit .286/.350 at age 23. Jerry Owens would be lucky to hit 1 homerun in a year. Sweeney should be able to hit 10-15. There is no comparison who is a better hitter.

You're right though, Jerry Owens is faster.