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View Full Version : Dick Allen, Ron Santo, Joe Torre in HOF ... or not.


DumpJerry
12-07-2008, 10:42 PM
http://www.dugoutcentral.com/blog/?p=2118

Scottiehaswheels
12-07-2008, 10:58 PM
Santo in the Hall. Now there's a ****ing tragedy.

thomas35forever
12-07-2008, 11:02 PM
Santo in the Hall. Now there's a ****ing tragedy.
Are you worried of all the further Santo love that will be received in this town?

Scottiehaswheels
12-07-2008, 11:07 PM
Are you worried of all the further Santo love that will be received in this town?Nah, maybe now the stupid douchenozzle will shut his trap and finally be an announcer like he's paid to be, instead of his own personal public promotions department... Actually I hope that now that he has seemingly won his battle for personal aggrandisement, he'll slink off to never be heard from again. That would be fantastic. Can Mike North follow him under a rock?

Daver
12-07-2008, 11:08 PM
And Billy Pierce is still on the outside looking in, forever.

The baseball HOF can kiss my ass.

WhiteSox5187
12-07-2008, 11:12 PM
And Billy Pierce is still on the outside looking in, forever.

The baseball HOF can kiss my ass.
I agree, had Pierce played in New York (for either the Dodgers, Giants or Yankees) he'd have been in probably on the first ballot. But since he didn't whine about it like Santo, he will never get in.

I wonder if Allen goes in in a Sox hat?

Craig Grebeck
12-07-2008, 11:30 PM
Santo in the Hall. Now there's a ****ing tragedy.
No, not really.

Scottiehaswheels
12-08-2008, 12:40 AM
No, not really.He was what I predict a healthy Joe Crede would be/could have been in 10-12 years in my opinion. Good, but certainly not hall worthy.

Scottiehaswheels
12-08-2008, 12:50 AM
Let me put it another way, the only 3B of the relatively modern era to be in the Hall with #'s similar to him is Robinson. And when people today compare a hot shot gloveman at 3B with someone, they don't compare the guy to Santo.

btrain929
12-08-2008, 01:07 AM
I wonder if Allen goes in in a Sox hat?

Are you serious? He'll go in as a Philly, no further discussion needed.

WhiteSox5187
12-08-2008, 02:38 AM
Are you serious? He'll go in as a Philly, no further discussion needed.
I don't know much about Allen, but didn't he have his best years with the Sox? He certainly enjoyed it the most I believe.

RadioheadRocks
12-08-2008, 02:53 AM
I don't know much about Allen, but didn't he have his best years with the Sox? He certainly enjoyed it the most I believe.


FWIW his only MVP year was with the White Sox.

btrain929
12-08-2008, 02:59 AM
I don't know much about Allen, but didn't he have his best years with the Sox? He certainly enjoyed it the most I believe.

He played 9 years with the Phils, and only 3 with the Sox (one of which he only played 1/2 a season). And the numbers he put up in Chicago were about on par for his career, so it's not like he did 5X better in Chicago than he did in Philly. Now if he was just average or underperforming for 9 years in PHI, then came to Chicago and did amazing, then there might be a chance. But that wasn't the case...

Here's a link if you want to look at the numbers from his years in PHI, CHI, etc:

http://www.baseball-reference.com/a/allendi01.shtml

Noneck
12-08-2008, 11:01 AM
Not sure if he is really a hall of famer but there are others in the same boat. I'm happy tho he is in, as he is one of my top 5 favorite Sox. I sure hope they will show some video highlights of him. If they don't have any maybe they will be knocking at Lips door.

getonbckthr
12-08-2008, 11:24 AM
**** Ron Santo!

ChiSoxFan81
12-08-2008, 11:55 AM
I wonder if Santo will be going in with a Sox cap on.

What a bunch of bull****. It's just like the George Ryan thing. Because he's old, people want to feel sorry for him and give him stuff he doesn't deserve (not trying to be political here - just a good analogy).

cards press box
12-08-2008, 11:58 AM
And Billy Pierce is still on the outside looking in, forever.

The baseball HOF can kiss my ass.

Billy Pierce should be in the Hall of Fame and so should Minnie Minoso. As I recall, Chicago's own Nellie Fox Society re-named itself the Society for Pierce upon the election of the great White Sox second baseman to the Hall of Fame. Is Pierce on the veterans' committee's ballot? If so, I hope the Society for Pierce pushes for his election, too.

As for Minoso, baseball's color line prevented him from getting to the major league until his late twenties. Absent the color line, he would have been in the MLB a lot sooner than that. The fact that the color line make his stats look less impressive that they are should not keep Minoso out of the Hall of Fame. But no one in baseball circles (particularly, the Chicago sports media) seems outraged enough to do anything about it.

PatK
12-08-2008, 12:00 PM
At least we'll now be spared the new coverage of him NOT making it year after year.

cards press box
12-08-2008, 12:00 PM
Are you serious? He'll go in as a Philly, no further discussion needed.

Baseball historians decide what cap adorns the HOF plaque. Allen was the American League MVP with the White Sox in 1972, so the Sox are a definite possibility.

CubKilla
12-08-2008, 12:02 PM
Baseball historians decide what cap adorns the HOF plaque. Allen was the American League MVP with the White Sox in 1972, so the Sox are a definite possibility.

Yup. The "Carlton Fisk Rule".

getonbckthr
12-08-2008, 12:03 PM
At least we'll now be spared the new coverage of him NOT making it year after year.
That was can't miss Television!

getonbckthr
12-08-2008, 12:04 PM
Now Joe Torre's induction will be over-shadowed somewhat.

CHISOXFAN13
12-08-2008, 12:05 PM
According to Rongey's update, none of these three got in.

What a waste of a thread. No more dugoutcentral.com please.

Zisk77
12-08-2008, 12:06 PM
Are you serious? He'll go in as a Philly, no further discussion needed.


Not if Dick has anything to say about it, he hated Philly. he had a quote that went something like ... i'll play outfield, i'll play infield, I just won't play in Philadelphia.

salty99
12-08-2008, 12:08 PM
This thread is complete bogus! Only Joe Gordon made it. Otis is that you disguised as DumpJerry?

btrain929
12-08-2008, 12:14 PM
So Santo did NOT make it? Hahahaha. Do you know how many Cub fans were probably excited and happy he "got in?" I love when Cub fans get their hopes up and they come crashing down :D:

WhiteSox5187
12-08-2008, 12:15 PM
According to Rongey's update, none of these three got in.

What a waste of a thread. No more dugoutcentral.com please.
:santo
"Ohhhh noooo!!!!"

2906
12-08-2008, 12:25 PM
We'll find out what the actual vote was soon enough, but this has got to be a crushing blow to Santo. He was what, 5 votes away last time? 64 of his more-or-less peers voted and he couldn't garner 48 votes (75%).

There have long been rumors that many of Santo's oppenents had issues with him, particularly some of the celebratory stuff Santo did, the heel clicking and the like. While personal grudges shouldn't play into this and hopefully didn't, the fact remains he didn't get the votes.

I would like to see where Jim Kaat stacked up. To me, he is a guy who should be in the Hall.

BadBobbyJenks
12-08-2008, 12:25 PM
So Santo did NOT make it? Hahahaha. Do you know how many Cub fans were probably excited and happy he "got in?" I love when Cub fans get their hopes up and they come crashing down :D:

It is funny I was listening to Waddle and Silvy and they had Bruce on one of their last segments and he was very confident Santo was getting in. As they closed the show Waddle and Silverman were chanting "Super Santo, Hall of Fame". Oops.

Sam Spade
12-08-2008, 12:31 PM
It is funny I was listening to Waddle and Silvy and they had Bruce on one of their last segments and he was very confident Santo was getting in. As they closed the show Waddle and Silverman were chanting "Super Santo, Hall of Fame". Oops.

I've heard some terrible radio in my day too.

champagne030
12-08-2008, 12:32 PM
We'll find out what the actual vote was soon enough, but this has got to be a crushing blow to Santo. He was what, 5 votes away last time? 64 of his more-or-less peers voted and he couldn't garner 48 votes (75%).

There have long been rumors that many of Santo's oppenents had issues with him, particularly some of the celebratory stuff Santo did, the heel clicking and the like. While personal grudges shouldn't play into this and hopefully didn't, the fact remains he didn't get the votes.

I would like to see where Jim Kaat stacked up. To me, he is a guy who should be in the Hall.

http://web.baseballhalloffame.org/news/article.jsp?ymd=20081208&content_id=10390&vkey=hof_pr


(48 votes needed for election): Santo (39 votes, 60.9 percent), Jim Kaat (38, 59.4 percent), Tony Oliva (33, 51.6 percent), Gil Hodges (28, 43.8 percent), Joe Torre (19, 29.7 percent), Maury Wills (15, 23.4 percent), Luis Tiant (13, 20.3 percent), Vada Pinson (12, 18.8 percent), Al Oliver (nine, 14.1 percent), Dick Allen (seven, 10.9 percent).

cheezheadsoxfan
12-08-2008, 12:35 PM
I'm no fan of Santo but almost wish he had gotten in just to end the circus. Now another 2 years of whining from the Chicago media.

Daver
12-08-2008, 12:37 PM
Billy Pierce should be in the Hall of Fame and so should Minnie Minoso. As I recall, Chicago's own Nellie Fox Society re-named itself the Society for Pierce upon the election of the great White Sox second baseman to the Hall of Fame. Is Pierce on the veterans' committee's ballot? If so, I hope the Society for Pierce pushes for his election, too.


Pierce is no longer eligible to be on the ballot, he has been shut out of the hall.

2906
12-08-2008, 12:37 PM
http://web.baseballhalloffame.org/news/article.jsp?ymd=20081208&content_id=10390&vkey=hof_pr


(48 votes needed for election): Santo (39 votes, 60.9 percent), Jim Kaat (38, 59.4 percent), Tony Oliva (33, 51.6 percent), Gil Hodges (28, 43.8 percent), Joe Torre (19, 29.7 percent), Maury Wills (15, 23.4 percent), Luis Tiant (13, 20.3 percent), Vada Pinson (12, 18.8 percent), Al Oliver (nine, 14.1 percent), Dick Allen (seven, 10.9 percent).

Interesting, thanks.

I think the numbers changed since the last time (the number who voted for Santo). There are a few more Hall of Famers, most notably Sandberg and Gossage. But this time he fell 9 votes short. I could have sworn he was only 5 votes short the last time. So, assuming Sandberg voted for him, and he said he would in his HOF acceptance speech, that'd mean other guys who named Santo on their ballot last time didn't this time. ??

Let the Chicago media fallout begin.

Sam Spade
12-08-2008, 12:40 PM
Some mod could edit the thread title, I think.

2906
12-08-2008, 01:01 PM
Just reading an article, in '07 Santo received 57 votes, which was 69.5%. He needed 62 votes to get in, and he was 5 short. There were 82 votes.

The committees were changed so it's only his peers (for the most part) that are voting now. 64 voters and Santo was named on 39 ballots, or 61%.

This tells me when his peers are voting, he may very well be getting less support. Without seeing the ballots, no one knows for sure, but it is fair to say he may never get the votes. Outside of insider pressure and campaigning, I can't see why any of the 64 would change their vote in two years. Either they believe he's Hall of Fame worthy or they don't. Seems to me it will take a turnover and/or addition to the pool of 64 voters for Santo to get in.

He will have to wait it out, along with all his supporters, but again this has got to really take the wind out of his sails.

PatK
12-08-2008, 01:02 PM
That was can't miss Television!


I DO like seeing when he gets the call. Just not the other stuff.

Iwritecode
12-08-2008, 01:04 PM
Yup. The "Carlton Fisk Rule".

It was when Wade Boggs supposedly was offered money by the Devil Rays to wear their cap into the hall that the rule was changed.

soxinem1
12-08-2008, 01:25 PM
If Billy pierce can no longer be inducted, how many more tries does Santo get before he can have the door slammed on him too?

I was actually looking forward to him dedicating his HOF career and thanking himself, Ron Santo, and R. Santo for his great storied, career!!

Rocky Soprano
12-08-2008, 01:30 PM
:santo
"Ohhhh noooo!!!!"

Too funny!

Daver
12-08-2008, 01:38 PM
If Billy pierce can no longer be inducted, how many more tries does Santo get before he can have the door slammed on him too?


It's dependent on the percentage of vote you get, over a certain percentage you stay on the ballot for another year.

SOXPHILE
12-08-2008, 01:43 PM
Bwaaaa Haaaaaaa Haaaaaaaaa Haaaaaaaaaaaaaaa !!!!!! Enjoy the winter, Santo, you blubbering self promoting tool. Flipped on Numbnuts Murphy for the expected bitching and moaning about this "travesty". So far, I don't think he's said anything about it. He's attempting to talk Blackhawks hockey. Oh, this should be good........

Rocky Soprano
12-08-2008, 01:47 PM
It's dependent on the percentage of vote you get, over a certain percentage you stay on the ballot for another year.

What is the percentage? Is Santo still available for the following vote?

Daver
12-08-2008, 01:55 PM
What is the percentage? Is Santo still available for the following vote?

I'm not positive on the percentage.

PINWHEELS
12-08-2008, 01:55 PM
:hawk
"Don't tell what you Hit
Tell me when you Hit It" MERCY!

ChiSoxFan81
12-08-2008, 01:58 PM
I've very pleased to learn this thread is a joke. Guess it should really be in What's the Score, eh?

I'm sure there are some deserving guys that haven't been voted in the HOF, but to let guys in just to have someone go in every year would be ridiculous. I'm glad they're discerning.

chisoxmike
12-08-2008, 02:04 PM
I think that's the last time Dump Jerry is going to post something from that site.

chisoxmike
12-08-2008, 02:17 PM
Really, this is the highlight of every baseball offseason. The day when all the news cameras are in his home. He sits on his couch telling old Cubs stories and then the phone rings.

Santo: (Smiling face) Hello?

*dead silence*

*Santo's face gets long*

Santo: OK. Thank you. Yeah...you too.

*looks around at his family*

Santo: Not this year.

:rolling:

Law11
12-08-2008, 02:18 PM
Really, this is the highlight of every baseball offseason. The day when all the news cameras are in his home. He sits on his couch telling old Cubs stories and then the phone rings.

Santo: (Smiling face) Hello?

*dead silence*

*Santo's face gets long*

Santo: OK. Thank you. Yeah...you too.

*looks around at his family*

Santo: Not this year.

:rolling:


Should I not be laughing at reading this post...

chisoxmike
12-08-2008, 02:20 PM
Should I not be laughing at reading this post...

:shrug:

SOXPHILE
12-08-2008, 02:23 PM
Really, this is the highlight of every baseball offseason. The day when all the news cameras are in his home. He sits on his couch telling old Cubs stories and then the phone rings.

Santo: (Smiling face) Hello?

*dead silence*

*Santo's face gets long*

Santo: OK. Thank you. Yeah...you too.

*looks around at his family*

Santo: Not this year.

:rolling:


That's exactly what happened back in either 2002 or 2003. That year he was SOOOOO sure he was going to get in, he invited all those cameras into his home. I can still see him sitting there in his easy chair, with a Cubs cap perched high atop his toupe, taking that call. I believe he answered the call, and then he sorta gurgled "yes...ohh....ahhhhh jeeez..." It was awesome. :rolling::rolling:

Sad
12-08-2008, 02:25 PM
Really, this is the highlight of every baseball offseason. The day when all the news cameras are in his home. He sits on his couch telling old Cubs stories and then the phone rings.

Santo: (Smiling face) Hello?

*dead silence*

*Santo's face gets long*

Santo: OK. Thank you. Yeah...you too.

*looks around at his family*

Santo: Not this year.

:rolling:


meh
I don't get any joy out of this...
he was a decent player- it can be argued who else belongs in...
whatever...

Rockabilly
12-08-2008, 02:27 PM
this totally sucks that Dick Allen didn't get in....

Who cares about Santo

chisoxmike
12-08-2008, 02:28 PM
meh
I don't get any joy out of this...
he was a decent player- it can be argued who else belongs in...
whatever...

To me, it's a kick off to the offseason. Kind of like a Mark Prior/Kerry Wood injury is the kick off to spring training. And my group of friends annual opening day party to kick of the baseball season.

btrain929
12-08-2008, 02:29 PM
That's exactly what happened back in either 2002 or 2003. That year he was SOOOOO sure he was going to get in, he invited all those cameras into his home. I can still see him sitting there in his easy chair, with a Cubs cap perched high atop his toupe, taking that call. I believe he answered the call, and then he sorta gurgled "yes...ohh....ahhhhh jeeez..." It was awesome. :rolling::rolling:

It would have been better if they came to his house and told him in person:

http://www.threadbombing.com/data/media/2/you_suck.gif

ChiSoxFan81
12-08-2008, 02:30 PM
That's exactly what happened back in either 2002 or 2003. That year he was SOOOOO sure he was going to get in, he invited all those cameras into his home. I can still see him sitting there in his easy chair, with a Cubs cap perched high atop his toupe, taking that call. I believe he answered the call, and then he sorta gurgled "yes...ohh....ahhhhh jeeez..." It was awesome. :rolling::rolling:

It was like watching them open Capone's vault all over again.

chisoxmike
12-08-2008, 02:33 PM
This thread title is pretty funny too. It's like otis started the thread.

esbrechtel
12-08-2008, 02:48 PM
Too bad for Dick Allen...could care less about Ron Santo...

DumpJerry
12-08-2008, 02:53 PM
Well, this is the last time I rely on Baseball-Reference.com for any truthful information.......:redface:

NLaloosh
12-08-2008, 02:56 PM
Wow! I'm stunned that Allen got in. Santo very clearly deserved it.

Allen will probably go in without a hat.

Iwritecode
12-08-2008, 02:59 PM
Wow! I'm stunned that Allen got in. Santo very clearly deserved it.

Allen will probably go in without a hat.

^^^ Didn't read the whole thread.

btrain929
12-08-2008, 03:07 PM
Wow! I'm stunned that Allen got in. Santo very clearly deserved it.

Allen will probably go in without a hat.

http://www.canadaka.net/forums/download/file.php?id=4395

Thigpen "57"
12-08-2008, 03:58 PM
Good. As far as I was concerned, nobody of these 3 had more than notable solid careers in the bigs.

Even though I type this as a totally biased WSI'er, not even Allen is HOF worthy. Honestly, after another 2 seasons, Konerko will have almost identical numbers(minus the MVP). Would any of us really consider Konerko hall worthy?

According to baseball-reference Allen's career is most similiar to Brian Giles! Even Ellis Burks is comparable.

+11111 about Santo finally being done, and for Pierce not getting his props.

DSpivack
12-08-2008, 04:06 PM
Good. As far as I was concerned, nobody of these 3 had more than notable solid careers in the bigs.

Even though I type this as a totally biased WSI'er, not even Allen is HOF worthy. Honestly, after another 2 seasons, Konerko will have almost identical numbers(minus the MVP). Would any of us really consider Konerko hall worthy?

According to baseball-reference Allen's career is most similiar to Brian Giles! Even Ellis Burks is comparable.

+11111 about Santo finally being done, and for Pierce not getting his props.

And yet his OPS+ is tied with two guys named Willie Mays and Frank Thomas.

Thigpen "57"
12-08-2008, 04:21 PM
And yet his OPS+ is tied with two guys named Willie Mays and Frank Thomas.

Yes he is in great company when looking at his Adjusted OPS+.

Are you saying based on this one career statistic he should be in the Hall?

Does him having an OPS slightly higher than Mike Schmidt mean anything?

Or what about Luis Gonzalez and Greg Vaughn having more homeruns than Allen, should they go into the Hall?

jabrch
12-08-2008, 04:25 PM
And yet his OPS+ is tied with two guys named Willie Mays and Frank Thomas.

So you can interpret that as meaning he is as good as those guys as a hitter, or that using OPS+ over a career to compare two hitters will give you results that don't match to the truth that you know from watching, reading and digesting the larger dataset you have on these hitters.

Taking one number and using it to evaluate a 15-20 year career of a hitter is simple and unreliable.

jabrch
12-08-2008, 04:27 PM
Or what about Luis Gonzalez and Greg Vaughn having more homeruns than Allen, should they go into the Hall?

Exactly.

OPS+ is bull****. It's the result of a flawed statistic (OPS takes two fractions with different denominators and adds their decimals together which makes no mathematical sense) and then uses a very debatable process to "adjust" it.

Is there anyone here who ranks Mays, Thomas and Allen as hitters and doesn't rank Dick Allen #3 in that list?

white sox bill
12-08-2008, 04:33 PM
Anyone know how many more times we have to listen to this Santo elected crap? Isn't there a limitation on number of times on ballot before you just cash it in?

Thigpen "57"
12-08-2008, 04:34 PM
.... and for the record, I would prefer Dick Allen over Paul Konerko ( or Vaughn for that matter) in my fantasy lineup any day. :D:

MUsoxfan
12-08-2008, 04:37 PM
I think guys like Santo and Blyleven do nothing but hurt their own case when they're constantly whining and grandstanding about the HOF. Santo may very well have been in if he had just shut the **** up all these years

WhiteSoxFan84
12-08-2008, 04:38 PM
i think those of you being "happy" that santo didn't get in just hate the cubs a lot.
he was a good player. he may not be the best broadcaster or the best human being in the world, but that doesn't matter too much.
he doesn't deserve all this hate. yes he is a cubs mark and is a fan first, broadcaster second, but that doesn't mean we should take joy in his pain.
i don't think it'll ever happen but i want him to get in, mainly so this story goes away but also because it would mean so much to him.
God forbid, but i dont see this guy being alive for much longer and for some of you to say the things you're saying, it's sad and i hope outsiders reading this don't judge white sox fans by your words about santo.

and quite honestly, hughes/santo >>> farmer and whoever else sits in with him next season. ed farmer is one of the most annoying, arrogant, stuck up people ive ever had to listen to.

i know it'll never happen but my personal DREAM TEAM on the radio would be rooney and wimpy.

btrain929
12-08-2008, 04:43 PM
i think those of you being "happy" that santo didn't get in just hate the cubs a lot.
he was a good player. he may not be the best broadcaster or the best human being in the world, but that doesn't matter too much.
he doesn't deserve all this hate. yes he is a cubs mark and is a fan first, broadcaster second, but that doesn't mean we should take joy in his pain.
i don't think it'll ever happen but i want him to get in, mainly so this story goes away but also because it would mean so much to him.
God forbid, but i dont see this guy being alive for much longer and for some of you to say the things you're saying, it's sad and i hope outsiders reading this don't judge white sox fans by your words about santo.

and quite honestly, hughes/santo >>> farmer and whoever else sits in with him next season. ed farmer is one of the most annoying, arrogant, stuck up people ive ever had to listen to.

i know it'll never happen but my personal DREAM TEAM on the radio would be rooney and wimpy.

http://www.creepygif.com/images/full/629.gif

DSpivack
12-08-2008, 04:46 PM
So you can interpret that as meaning he is as good as those guys as a hitter, or that using OPS+ over a career to compare two hitters will give you results that don't match to the truth that you know from watching, reading and digesting the larger dataset you have on these hitters.

Taking one number and using it to evaluate a 15-20 year career of a hitter is simple and unreliable.

Yes he is in great company when looking at his Adjusted OPS+.

Are you saying based on this one career statistic he should be in the Hall?

Does him having an OPS slightly higher than Mike Schmidt mean anything?

Or what about Luis Gonzalez and Greg Vaughn having more homeruns than Allen, should they go into the Hall?

I agree that one statistic doesn't show anything.

However, to say that Allen is no better than Luis Gonzalez, Greg Vaughn, or Paul Konerko because they all have around the same number of career HRs, is to prove that, well, one statistic doesn't show anything. I don't see how you could ever argue that Gonzalez, Vaugh, or Konerko are better than Allen was; or, for that matter, how Allen is better than Thomas or Mays. You just can't compare stats from one era to another.

doublem23
12-08-2008, 04:49 PM
According to baseball-reference Allen's career is most similiar to Brian Giles! Even Ellis Burks is comparable.


Speaking of B-R, the most similar player to Joe Gordon, who was elected to the Hall of Fame is...

:manos

That's right, one of our most polarizing figures. Start the rallly now... MANOS FOR THE HALL!

Thigpen "57"
12-08-2008, 04:50 PM
I agree that one statistic doesn't show anything.

However, to say that Allen is no better than Luis Gonzalez, Greg Vaughn, or Paul Konerko because they all have around the same number of career HRs, is to prove that, well, one statistic doesn't show anything. I don't see how you could ever argue that Gonzalez, Vaugh, or Konerko are better than Allen was; or, for that matter, how Allen is better than Thomas or Mays. You just can't compare stats from one era to another.

Exactly. You reiterated my point. :smile:

jabrch
12-08-2008, 04:53 PM
i think those of you being "happy" that santo didn't get in just hate the cubs a lot.
he was a good player. he may not be the best broadcaster or the best human being in the world, but that doesn't matter too much.
he doesn't deserve all this hate. yes he is a cubs mark and is a fan first, broadcaster second, but that doesn't mean we should take joy in his pain.
i don't think it'll ever happen but i want him to get in, mainly so this story goes away but also because it would mean so much to him.
God forbid, but i dont see this guy being alive for much longer and for some of you to say the things you're saying, it's sad and i hope outsiders reading this don't judge white sox fans by your words about santo.

and quite honestly, hughes/santo >>> farmer and whoever else sits in with him next season. ed farmer is one of the most annoying, arrogant, stuck up people ive ever had to listen to.

i know it'll never happen but my personal DREAM TEAM on the radio would be rooney and wimpy.


It has nothing to do with Ronny as a person...nothing at all.

If he were in the HOF, he'd be the worst 3B in. He'd be amongst the worst players in. He'd dilute the talent pool in the HOF, and he'd be another base-case like Tony Perez that would be used to argue that guys like Don Mattingly should be in. He'd open a door for Jim Rice. He'd open a door for Dick Allen. He'd open a door for Joe Torre. He'd open doors for many other guys who don't belong in the baseball Hall of Fame.

.277/.362/.464 with 2254 hits and 342 HRs. He had 5 GGs - but that alone is not enough. He's not Ozzie Smith or Brooks Robinson with a glove. Robin Ventura has 6 GGs. Robin hit .267/.362/.444 with 294 HRs. I wouldn't even THINK about voting for Robin.

It isn't that Santo is a Cub. It's that Santo's bust shouldn't be enshrined in the HOF. He shouldn't sit next to the greatest who ever played the game.

Banks - HOFer.
Sandberg - HOFer.
Fergie - HOFer.

Santo - a nice ballplayer and a great human interest story - but not a HOFer.

jabrch
12-08-2008, 04:57 PM
You just can't compare stats from one era to another.

Yet you tried that by sharing the OPS+ of 3 guys who played in (largely) eras other than Santo. (Mays had a ROY, an MVP and 7 top 10 MVP finishes before Santo had a full time job)

In order to truly compare two players, you can't just use a number unless you want to be very specific to say that they compare only in the exact items that the statistic in question measures.

WhiteSoxFan84
12-08-2008, 05:01 PM
It has nothing to do with Ronny as a person...nothing at all.

If he were in the HOF, he'd be the worst 3B in. He'd be amongst the worst players in. He'd dilute the talent pool in the HOF, and he'd be another base-case like Tony Perez that would be used to argue that guys like Don Mattingly should be in. He'd open a door for Jim Rice. He'd open a door for Dick Allen. He'd open a door for Joe Torre. He'd open doors for many other guys who don't belong in the baseball Hall of Fame.

.277/.362/.464 with 2254 hits and 342 HRs. He had 5 GGs - but that alone is not enough. He's not Ozzie Smith or Brooks Robinson with a glove. Robin Ventura has 6 GGs. Robin hit .267/.362/.444 with 294 HRs. I wouldn't even THINK about voting for Robin.

It isn't that Santo is a Cub. It's that Santo's bust shouldn't be enshrined in the HOF. He shouldn't sit next to the greatest who ever played the game.

Banks - HOFer.
Sandberg - HOFer.
Fergie - HOFer.

Santo - a nice ballplayer and a great human interest story - but not a HOFer.

then you wouldn't be who im talking about. your reasons are valid and well-informed.
it's the "santo got in? oh God, i wont hear the end of it from stupid cubs fans! blah blah blah cubs suck and i have nothing intelligent left to say" that i was referring to.
but people like you, who don't think he belongs because of his STATS, can argue all day and i wouldnt see a problem with it.

TommyJohn
12-08-2008, 05:05 PM
http://web.baseballhalloffame.org/news/article.jsp?ymd=20081208&content_id=10390&vkey=hof_pr


(48 votes needed for election): Santo (39 votes, 60.9 percent), Jim Kaat (38, 59.4 percent), Tony Oliva (33, 51.6 percent), Gil Hodges (28, 43.8 percent), Joe Torre (19, 29.7 percent), Maury Wills (15, 23.4 percent), Luis Tiant (13, 20.3 percent), Vada Pinson (12, 18.8 percent), Al Oliver (nine, 14.1 percent), Dick Allen (seven, 10.9 percent).

I would like to know who dugoutcentral.com's "close source" was. They weren't even close!

DSpivack
12-08-2008, 05:12 PM
Yet you tried that by sharing the OPS+ of 3 guys who played in (largely) eras other than Santo. (Mays had a ROY, an MVP and 7 top 10 MVP finishes before Santo had a full time job)

In order to truly compare two players, you can't just use a number unless you want to be very specific to say that they compare only in the exact items that the statistic in question measures.

Thigpen was using stats to compare him to Brian Giles and Ellis Burks. I was using stats to compare him to Frank Thomas and Willie Mays. Obviously neither comparisons are right; comparing players from different eras using statistics is generally a poor idea. But saying Dick Allen is no better than Burks or Giles is a bit ridiculous, as is saying he's just as good as Mays or Thomas.

I never said anything about Santo.

Thigpen "57"
12-08-2008, 05:23 PM
Thigpen was using stats to compare him to Brian Giles and Ellis Burks. I was using stats to compare him to Frank Thomas and Willie Mays. Obviously neither comparisons are right; comparing players from different eras using statistics is generally a poor idea. But saying Dick Allen is no better than Burks or Giles is a bit ridiculous, as is saying he's just as good as Mays or Thomas.

I never said anything about Santo.

Re-read my posts. I was pointing out that it was just as easy to compare Allen with Thomas and Mays, as it is to compare Allen with Burks or Giles. I typed this very clearly, and everyone but you seemd to interpret it as I intended.

The main difference between yours and my original comparison was that I looked at a broad comparison of total career stats, while you chose to use only Allen's Adjusted OPS+. Big difference, but once again, you have just fortified my original point. (Not making this personal by the way)

Lip Man 1
12-08-2008, 05:29 PM
Dick Allen was one of the finest players of his era, period. He hit for power during a time when pitching dominated. He hit home runs in pitcher friendly home parks in St. Louis and Los Angeles. He ran the bases extremely well, he was very smart baseball-wise.

He was a quality player and shouldn't even be mentioned in the same breath as Greg Vaughn and Paul Konerko.

He isn't a Hall of Famer but he was very, very, VERY good. And he scared the **** out of pitchers for years.

-----

Now regarding Santo.

Life isn't fair....deal with it Ronnie-baby and stop your bitching and moaning.

Billy Pierce, Tommy John, Jim Kaat and Minnie Minoso should have been in the Hall years ago but probably never will make it....you don't hear them complaining, whining and moaning to the media every other year do you?

Maybe, just maybe Ronnie-baby if you acted like an adult instead of a baby, you might get in.

Did you ever stop to think some of those voters may not like "politicking" for entry?

Lip

Thigpen "57"
12-08-2008, 05:31 PM
Thigpen was using stats to compare him to Brian Giles and Ellis Burks. I was using stats to compare him to Frank Thomas and Willie Mays. Obviously neither comparisons are right; comparing players from different eras using statistics is generally a poor idea. But saying Dick Allen is no better than Burks or Giles is a bit ridiculous, as is saying he's just as good as Mays or Thomas.

I never said anything about Santo.


I would also have to say that the comparisons are correct statistically, but are obviously incorrect within the context of this topic of who deserves to be in the Hall (Allen, Torre, Santo), or does not deserve to be.

Also, Allen is/was much, much better than Giles, Burks, Torre, or Santo.

DSpivack
12-08-2008, 05:50 PM
Re-read my posts. I was pointing out that it was just as easy to compare Allen with Thomas and Mays, as it is to compare Allen with Burks or Giles. I typed this very clearly, and everyone but you seemd to interpret it as I intended.

The main difference between yours and my original comparison was that I looked at a broad comparison of total career stats, while you chose to use only Allen's Adjusted OPS+. Big difference, but once again, you have just fortified my original point. (Not making this personal by the way)

I would also have to say that the comparisons are correct statistically, but are obviously incorrect within the context of this topic of who deserves to be in the Hall (Allen, Torre, Santo), or does not deserve to be.

Also, Allen is/was much, much better than Giles, Burks, Torre, or Santo.

I think we pretty much agree on the general point, that stats shouldn't be used to compare players from different eras. Are you saying that career totals are somehow more 'legit', though?

Thigpen "57"
12-08-2008, 05:57 PM
I think we pretty much agree on the general point, that stats shouldn't be used to compare players from different eras. Are you saying that career totals are somehow more 'legit', though?


As opposed to single season totals?

SoxfaninLA
12-08-2008, 05:57 PM
Now regarding Santo.

Life isn't fair....deal with it Ronnie-baby and stop your bitching and moaning.

Billy Pierce, Tommy John, Jim Kaat and Minnie Minoso should have been in the Hall years ago but probably never will make it....you don't hear them complaining, whining and moaning to the media every other year do you?

Maybe, just maybe Ronnie-baby if you acted like an adult instead of a baby, you might get in.

Did you ever stop to think some of those voters may not like "politicking" for entry?

Lip

Agree 100%. To the poster whining about how people are picking on poor Ronnie for no reason, this perfectly sums up why myself and a lot of other people don't want to see this clown get in. His constant pissing and moaning about getting in is what has turned so many people off to his candidacy. The fact of the matter is Santo never even sniffed the hall of fame on the regular ballot, the closest he came was 43% his last year of eligibility. Now the veterans committee, which has been changed after a lot of crying, isn't letting him in either. It's pretty obvious that both writers and his peers either feel he wasn't one of the all-time greats, or they think he is a self-promoting, egotistical, douchebag.

I truly believe that once Santo is gone he will end up getting into the hall of fame. Is that fair, probably not, but life isn't fair, and sometimes you pay the price for being an obnoxious heel-clicking gasbag.

Daver
12-08-2008, 05:59 PM
Billy Pierce, Tommy John, Jim Kaat and Minnie Minoso should have been in the Hall years ago but probably never will make it....you don't hear them complaining, whining and moaning to the media every other year do you?


I would include Burt Blyleven on this list.

DSpivack
12-08-2008, 06:01 PM
As opposed to single season totals?

'Simple' stats such as cumulative HRs, etc. as opposed to 'complex' derivative stats such as OPS+.

Thigpen "57"
12-08-2008, 06:03 PM
I would include Burt Blyleven on this list.


According to some here he whines almost like Santo does. Can't say I have ever heard him do it though.

All the same, I am Pro-Burt as well.

Noneck
12-08-2008, 06:05 PM
I would include Burt Blyleven on this list.
I'll add another former twinkie to this list, Jack Morris.

pearso66
12-08-2008, 06:11 PM
I don't want Santo in just because of his constant whining to get in. Plus he had 2 of his former teammates (I could be wrong) calling the voters and pleading his case. I seem to remember a few years ago that he was using his Diabetes and the fact that he lost both his legs because of it, as a reason he should be in. I may have remembered it wrong, but that's how I remember it.

NoNeckEra
12-08-2008, 06:37 PM
Now regarding Santo.

Life isn't fair....deal with it Ronnie-baby and stop your bitching and moaning.

Billy Pierce, Tommy John, Jim Kaat and Minnie Minoso should have been in the Hall years ago but probably never will make it....you don't hear them complaining, whining and moaning to the media every other year do you?

Maybe, just maybe Ronnie-baby if you acted like an adult instead of a baby, you might get in.

Did you ever stop to think some of those voters may not like "politicking" for entry?

Lip
Well said, Lip.
And consider this: Nellie Fox was dominant at his position, played in a W.S. and led in various MLB categories. He struggled mightily to get in to the hall. Santo never played a meaningful game in September, when crunch time hits. We'll never know if he was truely a clutch player.

Brian26
12-08-2008, 06:56 PM
Santo never played a meaningful game in September, when crunch time hits. We'll never know if he was truely a clutch player.

Retrosheet says Santo batted .240 with one HR in Sept of '69.

:shrug:

champagne030
12-08-2008, 07:32 PM
.... and for the record, I would prefer Dick Allen over Paul Konerko ( or Vaughn for that matter) in my fantasy lineup any day. :D:

Not just my fantasy lineup, but any lineup.

Brian26
12-08-2008, 07:51 PM
I would include Burt Blyleven on this list.

You and Harrelson agree on something. :redneck

Craig Grebeck
12-08-2008, 07:53 PM
OPS+ is bull****. It's the result of a flawed statistic (OPS takes two fractions with different denominators and adds their decimals together which makes no mathematical sense) and then uses a very debatable process to "adjust" it.

What are you talking about? The denominators don't really matter, OPS is a very raw, very rough way of analyzing a player's offensive contributions. OPS+ "touches up" OPS by considering park factors and comparing the player's numbers comparable to his era. It's far from perfect, but I don't really think you know what the stat means.

Craig Grebeck
12-08-2008, 08:01 PM
.277/.362/.464 with 2254 hits and 342 HRs. He had 5 GGs - but that alone is not enough. He's not Ozzie Smith or Brooks Robinson with a glove. Robin Ventura has 6 GGs. Robin hit .267/.362/.444 with 294 HRs. I wouldn't even THINK about voting for Robin.
You neglected to mention the fact that Robin played his peak years in an absolutely insane offensive environment. The league average OPS in Robin's best season, 1999, was .788. In Santo's best season, 1964, it was .724. Over the course of Santo's career, the league average was .733. During Ventura's time in the league, it was .753 -- which is dragged down by his first few years. After 1994, it was much higher, for the most part.

WhiteSox5187
12-08-2008, 10:48 PM
I'll add another former twinkie to this list, Jack Morris.
Jack Morris might be deserving of some consideration, but I think that he is waaaay behind guys like Pierce, Kaat, Minoso, et cetera.

slavko
12-09-2008, 12:39 AM
Retrosheet says Santo batted .240 with one HR in Sept of '69.

:shrug:

Yes, but how did he hit before 9/15/69, when the games were meaningful?

There does seem to be a lotta Schadenfreude in this thread, so much that even I am beginning to feel a bit guilty about it..........Nahhhhhh!

DrCrawdad
12-09-2008, 07:33 AM
Anyone know how many more times we have to listen to this Santo elected crap? Isn't there a limitation on number of times on ballot before you just cash it in?

If only that were the case.

They need to put this sign up in the Cubs radio booth...

http://www.stickers4less.com/No%20whining.jpg

OmarLittle
12-09-2008, 09:08 AM
-----
Now regarding Santo.

Life isn't fair....deal with it Ronnie-baby and stop your bitching and moaning.

Billy Pierce, Tommy John, Jim Kaat and Minnie Minoso should have been in the Hall years ago but probably never will make it....you don't hear them complaining, whining and moaning to the media every other year do you?

Maybe, just maybe Ronnie-baby if you acted like an adult instead of a baby, you might get in.

Did you ever stop to think some of those voters may not like "politicking" for entry?

Lip

Funny how you are telling him to act like an adult while you call him "Ronnie-baby".

Not to mention he should be judged on what he accomplished while playing, not on his attitude (especially his attitude years after he retired).

Flat out Santo should be in the Hall, its really not close. He is easily a top 10 3B.

OmarLittle
12-09-2008, 09:12 AM
6th highest 3rd baseman with a 112.8 warp3.

doublem23
12-09-2008, 09:22 AM
6th highest 3rd baseman with a 112.8 warp3.

Please don't quote stats with secret formulas and then expect anyone to take them seriously.

Ron Santo has a -5615646618948649461196198916 Doub score... That's not HOF-worthy.

OmarLittle
12-09-2008, 09:31 AM
How many 3B's better than Ron Santo can you name?

ChiSoxFan81
12-09-2008, 09:32 AM
How many 3B's better than Ron Santo can you name?

How much time you got?

OmarLittle
12-09-2008, 09:34 AM
Still waiting.

sox1970
12-09-2008, 09:40 AM
The Hall is a joke any way you slice it.

There are many players in that don't belong. There are players out, that should be in.

Really, the five year wait after a guy retires should be enough time to make that determination. Guys that haven't picked up a bat or a ball in 30, 40, 50, 60 years don't improve with time. With that said, the Veteran's committee should be eliminated. These guys have no business making these decisions.

Obviously the writers that watched Santo play his whole career didn't think he belonged. He was on the ballot for 15 years, and he didn't make it. He either needs to get over it, or they should change the criteria for players to get in the Hall, so more players are included.

OmarLittle
12-09-2008, 09:43 AM
It should be open ballot.

People need to be accountable for their idiotic decisions.

ChiSoxFan81
12-09-2008, 09:44 AM
It should be open ballot.

People need to be accountable for their idiotic decisions.

I didn't realize Ron had family in Vancouver.

sox1970
12-09-2008, 09:45 AM
It should be open ballot.

People need to be accountable for their idiotic decisions.

Do you think Ken Boyer should be in as well?

white sox bill
12-09-2008, 09:45 AM
I didn't realize Ron had family in Vancouver.

Santo is from State of Washington IIRC

PaleHoser
12-09-2008, 09:47 AM
Santo calls for Veteran's Committee process changes (http://sports.espn.go.com/mlb/news/story?id=3756458).

You are judged by the company you keep. Members of the HoF know this.

If Santo isn't judged as being worthy by 75% of the members, he should just accept it and get on with his life already.

If anything, his constant whining isn't helping his case at all.

Heffalump
12-09-2008, 09:57 AM
How many 3B's better than Ron Santo can you name?

Is that you, Ronnie?

I love how all the goofballs come out of the woodwork every year for Santo. Oh well, just another annual sign that spring training is right around the corner!!

Let go KW....pull off a few more steals for the '09 Sox!

jabrch
12-09-2008, 10:06 AM
How many 3B's better than Ron Santo can you name?

Why does that matter? I missed the rule that says the 5th, 10th, 50th, etc. best 3B should be in the HOF. I can tell you this - if he were in the HOF, he'd be the worst 3B in the HOF from the modern era.

Santo was a good ballplayer, but the media and his peers continue to agree that he was not a HOFer. Only Cubs fans and those sympathetic to his personal challenges are campaigning for him to make it.

.277/.362/.464
342 HR
2254 hits
5 GG
0 top 3 MVP finishes

Good...very good...

HOF? Nah - not in my book. If he is, you need to consider opening the hall's doors to Allen, Torre, Boyer, Rice, Evans, Oliver, Nettles and Garvey - just to name a few.

white sox bill
12-09-2008, 10:07 AM
Please anyone correct me if I'm wrong, but doesn't the "requirements" of enshrinement include having 100% creditbility based on integrity, honesty and character? (or something along those lines) So while his stats are good, his integrity isn't.

kittle42
12-09-2008, 10:11 AM
Please anyone correct me if I'm wrong, but doesn't the "requirements" of enshrinement include having 100% creditbility based on integrity, honesty and character? (or something along those lines) So while his stats are good, his integrity isn't.

Ty Cobb didn't have much integrity.

white sox bill
12-09-2008, 10:13 AM
Ty Cobb didn't have much integrity.

Maybe they changed rules post Ty!

OmarLittle
12-09-2008, 10:22 AM
Santo is from State of Washington IIRC

Vancouver, Canada.

doublem23
12-09-2008, 10:34 AM
Please anyone correct me if I'm wrong, but doesn't the "requirements" of enshrinement include having 100% creditbility based on integrity, honesty and character? (or something along those lines) So while his stats are good, his integrity isn't.

Ty Cobb didn't have much integrity.

Maybe they changed rules post Ty!

I don't think voters have to take character, etc. into account when they vote, but I believe they're allowed to.

I doubt anyone disagrees that the HOF is already a joke, but that doesn't mean we have to make it more of a joke by letting in Crybaby Santo.

kittle42
12-09-2008, 10:38 AM
I doubt anyone disagrees that the HOF is already a joke, but that doesn't mean we have to make it more of a joke by letting in Crybaby Santo.

The article in the Sun-Times today is such a joke. Santo complains about the integrity of the process and crap like that when, in reality, he's just saying, "Let me in." He can go to hell for all I care, self-serving egomaniac.

esbrechtel
12-09-2008, 10:39 AM
Santo had a nice career. But there are many that deserve to be in the hall that are not quit crying Ron...

SoxfaninLA
12-09-2008, 02:58 PM
Funny how you are telling him to act like an adult while you call him "Ronnie-baby".

Not to mention he should be judged on what he accomplished while playing, not on his attitude (especially his attitude years after he retired).

Flat out Santo should be in the Hall, its really not close. He is easily a top 10 3B.

Go back to NSBB. It delights me to no end how burned up the Cubbie faithful get about their posterboy for losing not getting into the HOF. Former players don't like Santo. Writers don't like Santo. The only people who don't find him to be an obnoxious douchebag are Cubs fans. The lesson is don't show up your peers while you are playing, and don't endlessly whine and complain about not getting what you want after your long retired, and maybe more people won't get joy out of keeping you waiting by the phone with tears in your eyes every two years.

SOXPHILE
12-09-2008, 03:06 PM
The article in the Sun-Times today is such a joke. Santo complains about the integrity of the process and crap like that when, in reality, he's just saying, "Let me in." He can go to hell for all I care, self-serving egomaniac.

The Tribune didn't let me down either. Yesterday they were in their full bi-annual campaign mode for him. As soon as it became known he didn't get in, I was saying to myself that tomorrow, the Trib would be all aghast at this "travesty". Sure enough, the usual supects (Rogers, Sullivan, Mitchell, and Morrissey) - were in full "THIS IS AN INJUSTICE !" mode this morning. Morrissey even going so far as to say that Santo deserves some answers. Uhh, Rick ? He has the answer. It's "NO". The Viper also asks what shortcomings the HOF folks see, that "we" (TribCo ?) - don't. Dear Rick Morrissey- You are an idiot. Thank you.

FedEx227
12-09-2008, 04:58 PM
This is really becoming absolutely pathetic. Do we really have to have ALL of Chicago media sucking his ass and crying, campaigning with him?

Risk
12-09-2008, 05:38 PM
This is really becoming absolutely pathetic. Do we really have to have ALL of Chicago media sucking his ass and crying, campaigning with him?

To my dying day, I will probably never witness a more appalling display of revisionist history than the fawning over Ron Santo. The fact that otherwise intelligent people can be suckered in by this yutz's proverbial "woe is me I'm the biggest lovable loser of them all and I should be in the hall" schtick borders on frightening.

"Choker, boozer, show off, bad teammate and all around douchebag with good, but not exceptional numbers becomes the tug-at-your-heartstrings, little-engine-that-could hero to the underprivileged masses." Thanks Cubune and willing media for perpetuating this bull**** meme.

Enjoy bankruptcy, mother****ers.

Risk

RadioheadRocks
12-09-2008, 06:21 PM
Go back to NSBB. It delights me to no end how burned up the Cubbie faithful get about their posterboy for losing not getting into the HOF. Former players don't like Santo. Writers don't like Santo. The only people who don't find him to be an obnoxious douchebag are Cubs fans. The lesson is don't show up your peers while you are playing, and don't endlessly whine and complain about not getting what you want after your long retired, and maybe more people won't get joy out of keeping you waiting by the phone with tears in your eyes every two years.


FWIW the thread over there makes for some might interesting reading.

pearso66
12-09-2008, 06:23 PM
Listening to the radio today, it was even more of a joke. Apparently Santo was saying again how he should get more consideration because he played with Diabetes and he has that now. He's also crying for the voting rules to be changed because the Veterans Committee didn't vote anyone in again.

Well maybe they don't feel that anyone is worthy of getting in. Where's the rule that states that someone has to be voted in every year? He said he doesn't even care if he gets in, he just thinks it's injustice that nobody got voted in, and it wouldn't care if he didn't get in. We all know that's horse crap and once he was voted in he wouldn't care about anyone else.

TommyJohn
12-09-2008, 06:49 PM
The Tribune didn't let me down either. Yesterday they were in their full bi-annual campaign mode for him. As soon as it became known he didn't get in, I was saying to myself that tomorrow, the Trib would be all aghast at this "travesty". Sure enough, the usual supects (Rogers, Sullivan, Mitchell, and Morrissey) - were in full "THIS IS AN INJUSTICE !" mode this morning. Morrissey even going so far as to say that Santo deserves some answers. Uhh, Rick ? He has the answer. It's "NO". The Viper also asks what shortcomings the HOF folks see, that "we" (TribCo ?) - don't. Dear Rick Morrissey- You are an idiot. Thank you.

Morrissey's column was a joke. "Ron is like we Cub fans...bloodied...beaten...always disappointed...but unbowed!" Give me a break.

soxinem1
12-09-2008, 06:50 PM
What an absolute joke the pro-Santo (which is basically Santo himself, as the ringleader) crowd makes.

As has been repeated many times on this and other Santo threads, he does not belong. Even by the standards of voters who have let many questionable entrants into the HOF. That should say something.

And it's not a ****ing conspiracy, it is not disrespect, and it is not overlooking his accomplishments. Maybe it is because he just is not good enough to be in.

IMHO, Dale Murphy, Jim Rice, Tony Perez, Orlando Cepeda, Jack Morris, Roger Maris, Harold Baines, Don Mattingly, Dick Allen, Jim Kaat (well, 50/50 on him), Bill Mazerowski, and scores of others, including Santo, are NOT HOF material. Some got in, some are trying, some won't ever make it.

They had moments, made All-Star teams, won individual accomplishment awards, were excellent players in many respects, but they were not among the best of their entire era's, of all-time, or someone worthy of being enshrined. During parts of their era? Sure. But not enough to warrant them being in such a category during the entire duration of their respective careers.

This shrine is not an All-Star team. That respect of baseball is already been socialized. The HOF should not be.

Now we can disagree on HOF criterion, but the facts are these. The BBWA voters, then the Vet Committee (so far) made up of many of his peers has not chosen him, and they have had their reasons, just like the others that have been either justly or non-justly denied.

Maybe the HOF should have gold, silver, and bronze entrants. Then they can let in every fly-by-night player on a rating basis, and include more bodies, if that is what the goal was ever meant to be. But I don't think that was ever the plan.

To me, and others, making a socialistic or sympathetic inclusion just because every era needs a representative at each position, that just waters down what should be an honor and a privilege to even be considered.

This is the only case in my 40+ years that I can recall someone who has taken such a shameless, self-promoting, and sorry cause to first, make himself out to be someone he was/is not, then two, start throwing personal tragedies, whether self-inflicted or not, into reasons to why they should be chosen. I know Bert Blyleven has made a few comments, but I just don't recall anyone carrying on like Santo does.

Maybe if he didn't piss off so many writers, teammates, opponents, umps, etc., they would have had a better opinion of him. Maybe he should mellow out a bit, like Ty Cobb did, and act a little remorseful for some of the stupid **** he pulled as a player, and blame it on competitiveness's or the 'love of the cubs', or whatever.

Now he wants to reform the Veterans Committee. Why, so they can just give free entrance to some whiner whose biggest attribute in his playing career is to blame conspiracy for his lack of HOF induction, the cubs not going 162-0 and sweeping their way to a World Series title?

Give me a ****ing break. As Hawk says, 'Screw 'em!!'

Craig Grebeck
12-09-2008, 07:08 PM
If someone could just tell me why or how Santo isn't one of the top 5-10 third baseman of all time, I'd love to hear it.

WhiteSox5187
12-09-2008, 07:39 PM
If someone could just tell me why or how Santo isn't one of the top 5-10 third baseman of all time, I'd love to hear it.
Well, I don't think one gain's entry to the Hall by being at the top of one's position. But there was a clip in the Sun Times today comparing other HOFers numbers to Ron (and some of these were dead ball guys) and Santo I think was pretty clearly at the bottom of that list, there might have been one guy that Santo was more deserving of...also if we just want to list contemporaries of Santo's who were better third baseman, Brooks Robinson and Eddie Matthews come to mind.

What gets me isn't that he isn't getting in, because yea, he probably should be in, but his constant bitching and whining about it is really annoying. Billy Pierce should be a HOFer and he won't get in, Nellie Fox one of the best second baseman of all time took forever to get in. There are several guys out there who are far more deserving that Santo that should be in, but they don't whine about it every year. I think that's what drives people nuts.

Craig Grebeck
12-09-2008, 07:42 PM
Well, I don't think one gain's entry to the Hall by being at the top of one's position. But there was a clip in the Sun Times today comparing other HOFers numbers to Ron (and some of these were dead ball guys) and Santo I think was pretty clearly at the bottom of that list, there might have been one guy that Santo was more deserving of...also if we just want to list contemporaries of Santo's who were better third baseman, Brooks Robinson and Eddie Matthews come to mind.

What gets me isn't that he isn't getting in, because yea, he probably should be in, but his constant bitching and whining about it is really annoying. Billy Pierce should be a HOFer and he won't get in, Nellie Fox one of the best second baseman of all time took forever to get in. There are several guys out there who are far more deserving that Santo that should be in, but they don't whine about it every year. I think that's what drives people nuts.
There are ten in the hall of fame, and Santo is definitely better than 2-3 three baggers that are already in there. I don't give a **** about Santo complaining, I just want to hear a coherent argument against him (sorry Jabrch, it says a lot you haven't replied to either of my posts yet).

Daver
12-09-2008, 07:44 PM
If someone could just tell me why or how Santo isn't one of the top 5-10 third baseman of all time, I'd love to hear it.

Well that is one way to twist things to reflect your logic, but using that logic, why aren't there more relief pitchers in the HOF?

Craig Grebeck
12-09-2008, 07:49 PM
Well that is one way to twist things to reflect your logic, but using that logic, why aren't there more relief pitchers in the HOF?
Well, there's ten third baseman in the hall of fame, and I believe Santo is better than a few of them, and compares solidly with some of them. Why aren't there more relief pitchers in the HOF? Simply, I believe the selection committee has been slow to adapt to a changing game, and hasn't properly acknowledged or recognized the importance of relief pitchers on the modern game. I think they will be embraced more in the future, but not currently -- and that's sad.

But, in reality, being a top 5-10 third baseman means more than being a top 5-10 relief pitcher.

Also, baseball, as a whole, hasn't recognized the contributions of relief pitchers in the 1980's. Look at Dan Quisenberry! I don't know too many people aware of his utter dominance from 82-85.

jabrch
12-09-2008, 07:49 PM
What an absolute joke the pro-Santo (which is basically Santo himself, as the ringleader) crowd makes.

As has been repeated many times on this and other Santo threads, he does not belong. Even by the standards of voters who have let many questionable entrants into the HOF. That should say something.

And it's not a ****ing conspiracy, it is not disrespect, and it is not overlooking his accomplishments. Maybe it is because he just is not good enough to be in.

IMHO, Dale Murphy, Jim Rice, Tony Perez, Orlando Cepeda, Jack Morris, Roger Maris, Harold Baines, Don Mattingly, Dick Allen, Jim Kaat (well, 50/50 on him), Bill Mazerowski, and scores of others, including Santo, are NOT HOF material. Some got in, some are trying, some won't ever make it.

They had moments, made All-Star teams, won individual accomplishment awards, were excellent players in many respects, but they were not among the best of their entire era's, of all-time, or someone worthy of being enshrined. During parts of their era? Sure. But not enough to warrant them being in such a category during the entire duration of their respective careers.

This shrine is not an All-Star team. That respect of baseball is already been socialized. The HOF should not be.

Now we can disagree on HOF criterion, but the facts are these. The BBWA voters, then the Vet Committee (so far) made up of many of his peers has not chosen him, and they have had their reasons, just like the others that have been either justly or non-justly denied.

Maybe the HOF should have gold, silver, and bronze entrants. Then they can let in every fly-by-night player on a rating basis, and include more bodies, if that is what the goal was ever meant to be. But I don't think that was ever the plan.

To me, and others, making a socialistic or sympathetic inclusion just because every era needs a representative at each position, that just waters down what should be an honor and a privilege to even be considered.

This is the only case in my 40+ years that I can recall someone who has taken such a shameless, self-promoting, and sorry cause to first, make himself out to be someone he was/is not, then two, start throwing personal tragedies, whether self-inflicted or not, into reasons to why they should be chosen. I know Bert Blyleven has made a few comments, but I just don't recall anyone carrying on like Santo does.

Maybe if he didn't piss off so many writers, teammates, opponents, umps, etc., they would have had a better opinion of him. Maybe he should mellow out a bit, like Ty Cobb did, and act a little remorseful for some of the stupid **** he pulled as a player, and blame it on competitiveness's or the 'love of the cubs', or whatever.

Now he wants to reform the Veterans Committee. Why, so they can just give free entrance to some whiner whose biggest attribute in his playing career is to blame conspiracy for his lack of HOF induction, the cubs not going 162-0 and sweeping their way to a World Series title?

Give me a ****ing break. As Hawk says, 'Screw 'em!!'


Great post. Santo was very good. But the HOF? I hope NEVER. Banks, Sandberg and Jenkins I am fully supportive of. Williams to a lesser extent - but I am ok with it. But I am glad the VC recognizes that Ron Santo isn't HOF worthy any more than the guys on your list above.

WhiteSox5187
12-09-2008, 07:53 PM
There are ten in the hall of fame, and Santo is definitely better than 2-3 three baggers that are already in there. I don't give a **** about Santo complaining, I just want to hear a coherent argument against him (sorry Jabrch, it says a lot you haven't replied to either of my posts yet).
Well I suppose that ONE argument could be that he tended to put up lots of late inning numbers in games that were already well out of hand (I don't know if that's true or not, I've read that in a couple of places though, I don't know what stat would reflect that) and another would be that the only time he was on a team that was in contention, he completely fell apart in September.

Again, when you think of HOF third baseman, guys like Mike Schmidt, Brooks Robinson and Eddie Matthews immediately come to mind (if you want to go back to the dead ball era there was Home Run Baker as well). Santo not so much.

Also if you go to baseball-reference they have that thing where they compare "similar batters" the first three on the list: Dale Murphy, Ken Boyer and Gary Gaetti. All very good players, but not HOFers by any stretch. Santo is a very good third baseman, but the HOF should be for the best of the best, and I think one could make the argument that Santo is not the best the of the best third basemen...in fact, he wasn't even the best third baseman of his era.

2906
12-09-2008, 08:05 PM
I count 14 3B in the Hall of Fame:

Home Run Baker
George Brett
Jimmy Collins
Mike Schmidt
George Brett
Brooks Robinson
Paul Molitor
Eddie Matthews
Wade Boggs
George Kell
Freddie Lindstrom
Pie Traynor
Ray Dandridge (Negro Leagues)
Judy Johnson (Negro Leagues)

I don't know Negro League history that well, but one has to wonder how many other 3B were/are excluded due to their lack of, shall we say, opportunity. A much worse issue than diabetes in my book.

I don't know much about either Lindstrom or Collins, or Dandridge.

Nor do I have any interest bantering back and forth debating who is better than who, especially based on stats (due to different eras mainly).

But I will say I think Baker, Brett, Schmidt, Matthews, Boggs, Kell, Traynor, and Brooks Robinson rate higher than Santo. Molitor too, but he spent considerable time at DH.

Craig Grebeck
12-09-2008, 08:10 PM
I count 14 3B in the Hall of Fame:

Home Run Baker
George Brett
Jimmy Collins
Mike Schmidt
George Brett
Brooks Robinson
Paul Molitor
Eddie Matthews
Wade Boggs
George Kell
Freddie Lindstrom
Pie Traynor
Ray Dandridge (Negro Leagues)
Judy Johnson (Negro Leagues)

I don't know Negro League history that well, but one has to wonder how many other 3B were/are excluded due to their lack of, shall we say, opportunity. A much worse issue than diabetes in my book.

I don't know much about either Lindstrom or Collins, or Dandridge.

Nor do I have any interest bantering back and forth debating who is better than who, especially based on stats (due to different eras mainly).

But I will say I think Baker, Brett, Schmidt, Matthews, Boggs, Kell, Traynor, and Brooks Robinson rate higher than Santo. Molitor too, but he spent considerable time at DH.
1. You listed Brett twice.
2. I don't consider Molitor a third baseman -- he played there, but not strictly, or mainly.
3. I don't want to disparage the accomplishments of the negro league third baseman, I just think it's too difficult to compare their work with Santo's, as there's so many variables. I do know they deserve to be in the hall of fame, which is saying a lot.

BadBobbyJenks
12-09-2008, 08:14 PM
I really hate the argument well they let this undeserving player in so why not another undeserving player.

Daver
12-09-2008, 08:15 PM
I really hate the argument well they let this undeserving player in so why not another undeserving player.

One of the reasons the HOF is a joke.

Craig Grebeck
12-09-2008, 08:19 PM
I really hate the argument well they let this undeserving player in so why not another undeserving player.
That's not really the crux of my argument though, with regards to Santo. If it was, I'd compare him to guys like Phil Rizzuto, Bill Mazeroski (questionable, in my eyes), etc.

2906
12-09-2008, 08:36 PM
1. You listed Brett twice.
2. I don't consider Molitor a third baseman -- he played there, but not strictly, or mainly.
3. I don't want to disparage the accomplishments of the negro league third baseman, I just think it's too difficult to compare their work with Santo's, as there's so many variables. I do know they deserve to be in the hall of fame, which is saying a lot.

13 it is.

I share your feelings about Molitor. He played a few positions but he's listed as a 3B-DH in the Hall of Fame and he was an outstanding 3B.

Hard for me to say Santo is even top 10 3b of all time but that's just me. As time goes on he'll go further down the list, thinking of Chipper Jones in particular.

To me it was very telling ... very telling ... that 64 of his peers didn't vote him in. I hope it's not due to personal issues or grudges as that would be wrong in my book. But it is also interesting to me that on a % basis he got less support than he did two years ago. Which doesn't mean a whole lot, other than it's clear 64 of his more-or-less peers don't give him overwhelming ratification as Hall of Fame caliber.

As for how he reacts after these votes and how he politics ... it doesn't endear him to me but who am I. It's who Ron Santo is. That's what he does. None of it is a surprise to me or anyone who lived through his career and I suspect it rubbed a lot of oppenents the wrong way. Again if personal grudges are getting in the way, that's a shame in my opinion.

But I do not see him as a glaring omission. After 15 years on the regular ballot and all these years on the veterans ballot, it appears those closer to the game agree.

Oblong
12-09-2008, 08:41 PM
Darrell Evans should be in the HOF before Santo. Am I saying Evans should be in? No, but I think he's underrated.

SoxfaninLA
12-10-2008, 12:52 AM
I really hate the argument well they let this undeserving player in so why not another undeserving player.

Agree 100%, this really drives me crazy. Player A got in and Player B has better numbers than player A, so Player B should be in too. Stop! Just because one broderline guy gets in doesn't mean the floodgates open for every broderline guy out there. Once a mistake is made its made, just live with it and move on, don't make it worse by letting the Ron Santos and Don Mattinglys of the world into the HOF.

johnr1note
12-10-2008, 07:01 AM
If someone could just tell me why or how Santo isn't one of the top 5-10 third baseman of all time, I'd love to hear it.

Let's compare Ron Santo to the other third basemen already enshrined in the Hall of Fame.

There are only 10 other third baseman in the HOF to compare statistics with (3 of the 13 HOF thirdbaseman were Negro Leaguers).

We also should differentiate between the 3rd baseman who entered the hall via the writer's vote (6 players) and the Veteran's Committee (4 non negro leauge players).

Overall, Santo rates as follows compared to other HOF third baseman (figures in parentheses are his rank against the HOF players voted in by the writers)

Hits: 7th of 10 (7th of 7)
HRs: 3rd of 10 (3rd of 7)
RBI: 6th of 10 (6th of 7)
BA: 7th of 10 (4th of 7)
OBP: 7th of 10 (7th of 7)
SLG: 4th of 10 (4th of 7)

As for Bill James' HOF career gauges, the HOF Standards (which takes certain statistical achievements and gives points for them) and the HOF Monitor (which does the same thing, but factors in some more "intangible" standards), Santo ranks as follows:

HOF Standards 7th of 10 (6th of 7)
HOF Monitor 8th of 10 (7th of 7)

I do not think this gives us a picture of a player of a player who obviously deserves enshrinement because he statistically is as good or better than the others at his position already in the HOF. It is at besta borderline case.

The only real area where Santo compares favorably is his power numbers. Only Mike Schmidt and Eddie Matthews have better power stats for third baseman in the hall, but they both eclipsed the usual HOF standard of 500 homers. Santo is NOT in their orbit as a power hitter. Santo is good, yes, but strictly on power, he can't hold a candle to Schmidt or Matthews. The one third baseman in the Hall with similar power stats to Santo is George Brett, but he was a better overall hitter (a lifetime average nearly 50 points higher, about 200 more RBI, and a career longer by 3 years -- plus Brett has 3000 hits, a usual "slam dunk" HOF milestone).

The other 7 HOF third basemen were not power hitters at all. Comparing Santo's offensive statistics to them is like comparing Babe Ruth to Ty Cobb. All save 2 have significantly higher BAs and OBPs. Boggs, of course, has 3000 hits as well. Traynor has significantly more hits, a much higher lifetime BA, and despite only hitting 58 homeruns, his slugging percentage is only 30 points less than Santo's.

If you go down the list of HOF third basemen for who we have stats to analyze, Santo compares poorly to most:

Boggs vs Santo: 3010 hits vs 2254, BA of .328 vs .277

Brett vs Santo: Brett had 3000 hits, a .305 average -- only Santo's HR totals exceed Brett's

Matthews vs. Santo: Similar in every way, except Eddie had about 150 more HRs, 120 more RBI, and 50 points on the SLG percentage.

Schmidt: 548 HRs. Nuff said.

Traynor vs. Santo: Pie had a .320 lifetime average, 200 more hits, and has SLG numbers similar to Ronnies.

The 5 HOF third basemen that Santo compares more favorably with (at least at first glance) are the 4 selected by the Veteran's Committee, and Brooks Robinson.

Frank Baker played in far fewer games than Santo, and has a higher lifetime average (.307). Intangibles favor Baker, as he was a proven team leader and proved himself in the postseason for Connie Mack's A's and then again later for the Yankees late in his career.

George Kell has a higher lifetime average (.306), and also played in fewer games. Kell also won a batting title (besting the great Ted Williams).

Jimmy Collins is the most apples/oranges comparison on the list. He played most of his career in the 19th century. He also had a higher BA, and played in fewer games. Also, he was a player manager for 5 years, winning two pennants and a WS title as a manager.

Freddie Lindstrom is similar statistically to Frank Baker and Jimmy Collins. Lindstrom was a lifetime .311 hitter, and played in about 800 fewer games than Santo. Like Traynor, Lindstrom doesn't have near the power stats Santo has in HR and RBI, Freddie's OB is only 11 points behind Santo, his SLG pct. is only 15 points behind. Lindstrom's intangibles include leading the lead in hits once, finishing 2nd in the MVP voting once, and playing for a lot of very good NY Giants teams, making it to the WS twice -- once as a Giant, and later, in the last year of his career, Lindstrom accomplished the crowning achievement Ron Santo ultimatlely failed in doing -- making it to the World Series as a member of the Chicago Cubs!!

The single third baseman who Santo compares closest with and comes out looking better as far as offensive stats is Brooks Robinson. Santo beats Brooks in every offensive category except hits and RBIs, but Robinson played 8 more seasons. (Ron even has more Stolen bases!). Santo was of course an excellent defensive 3rd baseman. But Brooks was the gold standard. In raw stats, Brook is hands down the better defensive player. Santo had a lifetime .954 fielding pct, Robinson had .971. Ron’s lifetime Range factor was 3.07 (very good), Robinson was 3.10 (better!). Ronnie was a 9 time all star, and finished in the top 25 for MVP 7 times, once coming in 4th, once in 5th. Robinson was a 15 time all star, and finished top 25 for MVP 12 times, winning the AL MVP in 1964, and finishing 2nd once, third twice, and 4th once. Brooks’ Orioles also won 4 pennants and two World Series titles. In addition, Brooks won 16 gold gloves in his career, Santo won 5. This was all going on at exactly the same time Ron was playing, so Ron wasn't even the best third baseman of his own era.

And when you compare all of this, the one factor that I believe weighs against Santo's induction are the intangibles -- his leadership factor, his "clutch" factor, his ability to make a difference on his team. This, in my opinion, really is wear Santo was weighed in the balance and found wanting. He was the Captain of the 69 Cubs. His meltdowns on those Cubs teams of the early 70s -- both in his play and in his emotions -- can be seen as key factors in those teams just missing getting into the post season. This is clearly not present in the other HOF third baseman. Except for George Kell, to a man, all of them served as vital parts of winning ball clubs.

I think this proves beyond the shadow of a doubt -- compared to the other HOF third basemen, Santo is second tier.

Craig Grebeck
12-10-2008, 07:50 AM
Let's compare Ron Santo to the other third basemen already enshrined in the Hall of Fame.

There are only 10 other third baseman in the HOF to compare statistics with (3 of the 13 HOF thirdbaseman were Negro Leaguers).

We also should differentiate between the 3rd baseman who entered the hall via the writer's vote (6 players) and the Veteran's Committee (4 non negro leauge players).

Overall, Santo rates as follows compared to other HOF third baseman (figures in parentheses are his rank against the HOF players voted in by the writers)

Hits: 7th of 10 (7th of 7)
HRs: 3rd of 10 (3rd of 7)
RBI: 6th of 10 (6th of 7)
BA: 7th of 10 (4th of 7)
OBP: 7th of 10 (7th of 7)
SLG: 4th of 10 (4th of 7)

As for Bill James' HOF career gauges, the HOF Standards (which takes certain statistical achievements and gives points for them) and the HOF Monitor (which does the same thing, but factors in some more "intangible" standards), Santo ranks as follows:

HOF Standards 7th of 10 (6th of 7)
HOF Monitor 8th of 10 (7th of 7)

I do not think this gives us a picture of a player of a player who obviously deserves enshrinement because he statistically is as good or better than the others at his position already in the HOF. It is at besta borderline case.

The only real area where Santo compares favorably is his power numbers. Only Mike Schmidt and Eddie Matthews have better power stats for third baseman in the hall, but they both eclipsed the usual HOF standard of 500 homers. Santo is NOT in their orbit as a power hitter. Santo is good, yes, but strictly on power, he can't hold a candle to Schmidt or Matthews. The one third baseman in the Hall with similar power stats to Santo is George Brett, but he was a better overall hitter (a lifetime average nearly 50 points higher, about 200 more RBI, and a career longer by 3 years -- plus Brett has 3000 hits, a usual "slam dunk" HOF milestone).

The other 7 HOF third basemen were not power hitters at all. Comparing Santo's offensive statistics to them is like comparing Babe Ruth to Ty Cobb. All save 2 have significantly higher BAs and OBPs. Boggs, of course, has 3000 hits as well. Traynor has significantly more hits, a much higher lifetime BA, and despite only hitting 58 homeruns, his slugging percentage is only 30 points less than Santo's.

If you go down the list of HOF third basemen for who we have stats to analyze, Santo compares poorly to most:

Boggs vs Santo: 3010 hits vs 2254, BA of .328 vs .277

Brett vs Santo: Brett had 3000 hits, a .305 average -- only Santo's HR totals exceed Brett's

Matthews vs. Santo: Similar in every way, except Eddie had about 150 more HRs, 120 more RBI, and 50 points on the SLG percentage.

Schmidt: 548 HRs. Nuff said.

Traynor vs. Santo: Pie had a .320 lifetime average, 200 more hits, and has SLG numbers similar to Ronnies.

The 5 HOF third basemen that Santo compares more favorably with (at least at first glance) are the 4 selected by the Veteran's Committee, and Brooks Robinson.

Frank Baker played in far fewer games than Santo, and has a higher lifetime average (.307). Intangibles favor Baker, as he was a proven team leader and proved himself in the postseason for Connie Mack's A's and then again later for the Yankees late in his career.

George Kell has a higher lifetime average (.306), and also played in fewer games. Kell also won a batting title (besting the great Ted Williams).

Jimmy Collins is the most apples/oranges comparison on the list. He played most of his career in the 19th century. He also had a higher BA, and played in fewer games. Also, he was a player manager for 5 years, winning two pennants and a WS title as a manager.

Freddie Lindstrom is similar statistically to Frank Baker and Jimmy Collins. Lindstrom was a lifetime .311 hitter, and played in about 800 fewer games than Santo. Like Traynor, Lindstrom doesn't have near the power stats Santo has in HR and RBI, Freddie's OB is only 11 points behind Santo, his SLG pct. is only 15 points behind. Lindstrom's intangibles include leading the lead in hits once, finishing 2nd in the MVP voting once, and playing for a lot of very good NY Giants teams, making it to the WS twice -- once as a Giant, and later, in the last year of his career, Lindstrom accomplished the crowning achievement Ron Santo ultimatlely failed in doing -- making it to the World Series as a member of the Chicago Cubs!!

The single third baseman who Santo compares closest with and comes out looking better as far as offensive stats is Brooks Robinson. Santo beats Brooks in every offensive category except hits and RBIs, but Robinson played 8 more seasons. (Ron even has more Stolen bases!). Santo was of course an excellent defensive 3rd baseman. But Brooks was the gold standard. In raw stats, Brook is hands down the better defensive player. Santo had a lifetime .954 fielding pct, Robinson had .971. Ron’s lifetime Range factor was 3.07 (very good), Robinson was 3.10 (better!). Ronnie was a 9 time all star, and finished in the top 25 for MVP 7 times, once coming in 4th, once in 5th. Robinson was a 15 time all star, and finished top 25 for MVP 12 times, winning the AL MVP in 1964, and finishing 2nd once, third twice, and 4th once. Brooks’ Orioles also won 4 pennants and two World Series titles. In addition, Brooks won 16 gold gloves in his career, Santo won 5. This was all going on at exactly the same time Ron was playing, so Ron wasn't even the best third baseman of his own era.

And when you compare all of this, the one factor that I believe weighs against Santo's induction are the intangibles -- his leadership factor, his "clutch" factor, his ability to make a difference on his team. This, in my opinion, really is wear Santo was weighed in the balance and found wanting. He was the Captain of the 69 Cubs. His meltdowns on those Cubs teams of the early 70s -- both in his play and in his emotions -- can be seen as key factors in those teams just missing getting into the post season. This is clearly not present in the other HOF third baseman. Except for George Kell, to a man, all of them served as vital parts of winning ball clubs.

I think this proves beyond the shadow of a doubt -- compared to the other HOF third basemen, Santo is second tier.
Obviously, I'm not going to argue that Santo is somehow better than Brett, Schmidt, Matthews, Boggs, or even Baker. But, I don't believe Collins, Kell, Traynor, or Lindstrom compare offensively to Santo. (I will leave Robinson out of the argument, mainly because Santo's offensive numbers were eons better, but Robinson was considered a once in a lifetime defender.)

I think Collins is closest to Santo, as over his career he was clearly above average in BA/SLG, but hovering above average in terms of OBP. That being said, I think Santo's line of .277/.362/.464 is much better, mainly because they played in very similar offensive environments. Over the course of Collins' career, the average line was .279/.339/.367. In Santo's era, it was .268/.333/.399 -- a little higher on slugging ability, but pretty depressed relative to other eras.

Kell also played in an era similar to that of Santo's, and put up a career OPS+ of 111. His ability to hit was great, as he had a .306 career batting average, but Santo equaled him in on base ability and blew him away in slugging.

As for Pie Traynor, his numbers look great without looking at the context. In 1930, he put up a .932 OPS -- the league average that season was .834. His career OPS was .797, which was not all that better than league average, .769. And while Traynor batted .320 for his career, consider that the league average during his time was ALMOST .300! It's amazing that .295 was simply average in Traynor's day. Traynor's OPS+: 107.

Lindstrom's case is similar to Traynor's in that they played in similar eras. Like Traynor, Lindstrom wasn't exactly head and shoulders above his peers in an offensively inflated era.

Santo's numbers have to be taken in context, as his playing career coincided with a pitching dominated era in MLB.

jabrch
12-10-2008, 10:09 AM
I can list 10 people not in the HOF who are as worthy or more than Santo. That's a classic case of someone who doesn't deserve the VC's consideration as they are designed only to right the wrongs made by the BBWA. No wrong was done here.

It's also not just about numbers. People are forgetting that Santo was a big douchebag. He was disliked by players, media and many fans outside of the sub 10K who used to come to Clark and Addison. That alone is not what excludes a player. And being universally loved alone wouldn't include a player. But it is a contributing factor. Maybe being an asshat for his entire career was a bad idea?

soxinem1
12-10-2008, 11:21 AM
I can list 10 people not in the HOF who are as worthy or more than Santo. That's a classic case of someone who doesn't deserve the VC's consideration as they are designed only to right the wrongs made by the BBWA. No wrong was done here.

It's also not just about numbers. People are forgetting that Santo was a big douchebag. He was disliked by players, media and many fans outside of the sub 10K who used to come to Clark and Addison. That alone is not what excludes a player. And being universally loved alone wouldn't include a player. But it is a contributing factor. Maybe being an asshat for his entire career was a bad idea?

Very true.

And if the cubs themselves thought Santo was such a great player, why did it take them so long to retire his number? They did it 30 YEARS after they traded him to us!

And when Santo found out his number was being retired in 2003, he said he did NOT care if he ever got into the HOF, that retiring his number was his HOF:

"I'm so overwhelmed. I can't tell you how much this (having his number retired) means to me. I don't care if I get into the Hall of Fame. This is my Hall of Fame. And I really mean it. I can't explain it, but this is the ultimate." - Ron Santo (September 22, 2003)

So if he does not care, then GIVE IT UP!!!

johnr1note
12-10-2008, 01:00 PM
Obviously, I'm not going to argue that Santo is somehow better than Brett, Schmidt, Matthews, Boggs, or even Baker. But, I don't believe Collins, Kell, Traynor, or Lindstrom compare offensively to Santo. (I will leave Robinson out of the argument, mainly because Santo's offensive numbers were eons better, but Robinson was considered a once in a lifetime defender.)

I think Collins is closest to Santo, as over his career he was clearly above average in BA/SLG, but hovering above average in terms of OBP. That being said, I think Santo's line of .277/.362/.464 is much better, mainly because they played in very similar offensive environments. Over the course of Collins' career, the average line was .279/.339/.367. In Santo's era, it was .268/.333/.399 -- a little higher on slugging ability, but pretty depressed relative to other eras.

Kell also played in an era similar to that of Santo's, and put up a career OPS+ of 111. His ability to hit was great, as he had a .306 career batting average, but Santo equaled him in on base ability and blew him away in slugging.

As for Pie Traynor, his numbers look great without looking at the context. In 1930, he put up a .932 OPS -- the league average that season was .834. His career OPS was .797, which was not all that better than league average, .769. And while Traynor batted .320 for his career, consider that the league average during his time was ALMOST .300! It's amazing that .295 was simply average in Traynor's day. Traynor's OPS+: 107.

Lindstrom's case is similar to Traynor's in that they played in similar eras. Like Traynor, Lindstrom wasn't exactly head and shoulders above his peers in an offensively inflated era.

Santo's numbers have to be taken in context, as his playing career coincided with a pitching dominated era in MLB.

But what about those "intangibles?" I think in the borderline cases like Santos, you have to take the context of every aspect of his career. The primary difference in my mind is that the guys you say Santo compares with or are arguably "better" who are already in the HOF were all integral parts of winning ball clubs. Their bats and gloves and even attitudes made a huge difference in making their clubs winners. It can be argued that Santo's volitility had quite the opposite effect on his team. I think all other things being equal, we must consider that Santo was the captain on the purportedly greatest team the Cubs have had on the field in the last 50 years, and that team failed. Do you have to be a winner to get in the hall of fame? Of course not. Ernie Banks is there because he complied a life time of statistics that compare with the greats of all time. He gets in regardless of who he played for, or where his teams finished. Santo is borderline. I think borderline guys who are leaders and get the job done get the nod, as I said, all other things being equal. Santo did not get the job done.

Scottiehaswheels
12-10-2008, 01:13 PM
BTW, for all the claims of how great his defense is, our very own Josh Fields has a higher fielding percentage than one Ron Santo. Santo once had 31 errors at 3B and a couple 27 error seasons. That **** wouldn't fly in today's game.

WhiteSox5187
12-10-2008, 01:25 PM
BTW, for all the claims of how great his defense is, our very own Josh Fields has a higher fielding percentage than one Ron Santo. Santo once had 31 errors at 3B and a couple 27 error seasons. That **** wouldn't fly in today's game.
Fielding stats are a lousy way to judge a fielder.

jabrch
12-10-2008, 02:00 PM
BTW, for all the claims of how great his defense is, our very own Josh Fields has a higher fielding percentage than one Ron Santo. Santo once had 31 errors at 3B and a couple 27 error seasons. That **** wouldn't fly in today's game.


Which only goes to show how ****ing stupid fielding % is as a metric.

soxinem1
12-10-2008, 02:32 PM
Which only goes to show how ****ing stupid fielding % is as a metric.

Sure. I remember Harold Reynolds winning GG Awards making 20 + errors at 2B!

The better fielding knock on Santo would be the fact that Wiggley Field grass is tall and thick, so you have all day to get to the ball. This has been true for many decades.

With that advantage, he shouldn't have had any errors!!!!

jabrch
12-10-2008, 02:58 PM
Sure. I remember Harold Reynolds winning GG Awards making 20 + errors at 2B!

The better fielding knock on Santo would be the fact that Wiggley Field grass is tall and thick, so you have all day to get to the ball. This has been true for many decades.

With that advantage, he shouldn't have had any errors!!!!


There aren't many good fielding knocks on Ronny. He was a very solid 3B defensively. He was not Brooks Robinson - but that is like knocking Barry Larkin for not being Ozzie Smith, or like knocking Mike Cameron for not being Ichiro or Torii. Santo had a great glove. But he wasn't a guy who would make the HOF on his glove alone like Brooks Robinson or Ozzie Smith. And his bat, while very good, failed to deliver sufficiently over the course of his career to do anything to lock him into the HOF. At that point, with no lock from his bat, and no lock from his glove, he was a boarderline case. And his douchiness is what kept the media and now his peers from voting for him all this time.

Santo's best bet is to, for a change, be humble and apologize for being a douche, instead of continue to take such pride in it. Instead of demanding ANOTHER new VC, he should address the one he crapped on and apologize for being a ****head. You catch more flies with honey than with whining and bitching.

Railsplitter
12-10-2008, 03:42 PM
Santo never led his league in any major offensive catagory. No HoF for him.

Dick Allen had two home run home run titles and at least one RBI crown. Those should be enough to push in a guy on the fence into the hall.

Joe Torre is a Hall of Fame manager, but no a Hall of Fame player.

jabrch
12-10-2008, 04:29 PM
Santo never led his league in any major offensive catagory. No HoF for him.

Dick Allen had two home run home run titles and at least one RBI crown. Those should be enough to push in a guy on the fence into the hall.

Joe Torre is a Hall of Fame manager, but no a Hall of Fame player.

Santo also never won an MVP. Allen and Torre each won one.

Santo never lead the league in batting - Torre did.

and...

None of them belong in the HOF - fortunately it looks like the HOF agrees.

soxinem1
12-10-2008, 04:35 PM
Joe Torre is a Hall of Fame manager, but no a Hall of Fame player.

If he'd have remained a catcher, he would be. Since he played a lot of 1B and 3B, he falls a little short.

But Joe was a great power/average/contact guy with a decent OBP.

jdm2662
12-10-2008, 04:47 PM
Here's a question.

Since most would agree Torre should go into the HOF as a manager, when he retires from managing, does he get put on the ballot again as a manager?

soxinem1
12-10-2008, 06:19 PM
Here's a question.

Since most would agree Torre should go into the HOF as a manager, when he retires from managing, does he get put on the ballot again as a manager?

Sure. Two different scenarios, two different positions.

It is a good question, as it is very rare that even excellent players, more than HOF players, who become managers get put into this situation.

Most of the time, excellent players have NOT been even average managers, except maybe Yogi and a couple others.

Most HOF-type managers were scrubs or decent, or even good, but not HOF caliber players.