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View Full Version : Good Luck to Dick Allen and Jim Kaat


Rockabilly
12-05-2008, 03:05 PM
http://chicago.whitesox.mlb.com/news/article.jsp?ymd=20081126&content_id=3694440&vkey=news_cws&fext=.jsp&c_id=cws

Nellie_Fox
12-05-2008, 03:18 PM
Nobody hit the ball harder than Dick Allen. Nobody.

jabrch
12-05-2008, 03:19 PM
Dick Allen
Gil Hodges
Jim Kaat
Tony Oliva
Al Oliver
Vada Pinson
Ron Santo
Luis Tiant
Joe Torre
Maury Wills

10 very good baseball players...0 HOFers in my eyes. Santo, Torre, Kaat and Allen are the better half of that list - but I wouldn't vote for any of them.

soxrepublican
12-05-2008, 03:42 PM
Im really not rooting for Dick Allen. He was a tremedous hitter, but his first name really speaks for him. He was a clubhouse cancer, and a jerk to the kids. Rarely gave autographs.

jabrch
12-05-2008, 03:46 PM
Im really not rooting for Dick Allen. He was a tremedous hitter, but his first name really speaks for him. He was a clubhouse cancer, and a jerk to the kids. Rarely gave autographs.

I'm not rooting for any of these guys. I just don't believe any warrant HOF consideration by the Vets. Comm. The Vets committee is there to right any wrongs made by the BBWA. I can't see how any of these guys are more deserving today than they were when their normal nomination period passed without success.

Torre will get in someday as a manager - but that shouldn't impact him as a player. Santo, Allen, etc. are close - but not close enough in my eyes.

Rockabilly
12-05-2008, 03:50 PM
I'm not rooting for any of these guys. I just don't believe any warrant HOF consideration by the Vets. Comm. The Vets committee is there to right any wrongs made by the BBWA. I can't see how any of these guys are more deserving today than they were when their normal nomination period passed without success.

Torre will get in someday as a manager - but that shouldn't impact him as a player. Santo, Allen, etc. are close - but not close enough in my eyes.


So you don't think that Nellie Fox should have be in the HOF, since the Vets Comm put him in..

Lundind1
12-05-2008, 03:56 PM
I have the original issue picture of Allen in the White Sox dugout in the Old Lady smoking a cigarette and juggling some baseballs. Not that this post lends anything to the thread other than I have something cool about one of the two people in question. I really need to stop talking now. :tongue:

oldcomiskey
12-05-2008, 05:41 PM
Im really not rooting for Dick Allen. He was a tremedous hitter, but his first name really speaks for him. He was a clubhouse cancer, and a jerk to the kids. Rarely gave autographs.

He wasnt really a clubhouse cancer per se. he got along with all his teammates, but I guess he was hard to reason with

soxrepublican
12-05-2008, 05:55 PM
He wasnt really a clubhouse cancer per se. he got along with all his teammates, but I guess he was hard to reason with

I have to say I agree. He was not much of a cancer, but just kind of a Dick, to some teamates, coaches, and fans.

Lip Man 1
12-05-2008, 06:54 PM
Dick was NEVER EVER a "cancer". Ask any one of his former teammates that I have interviewed (read them for yourself) or go to the WSI Interviews section and read the six part series on him that we were allowed to reprint by the author who worked with Dick in Texas.

You won't find a single negative word about him from anyone not in upper management.

Roland Hemond and Chuck Tanner have both said on numerous occasions that Dick saved the Sox for Chicago. (In truth he played a big part but Roland and Chuck also had a lot to do with that as well!)

Lip

BainesHOF
12-05-2008, 07:25 PM
I can back up Lip on that one. Every former player I've spoken with about Dick Allen has had nothing but glowing praise for the guy. The two examples I can think of off the top of my head are Bill Melton and Ed Herrmann.

soxrepublican
12-05-2008, 07:58 PM
I thank all of you for clarifying more about Dick. I decided to look at former player intervews, and he semed cool with them. I just remember he was kind of a jerk to some fans and it took an arm anda leg to get a autograph!

jabrch
12-05-2008, 08:24 PM
So you don't think that Nellie Fox should have be in the HOF, since the Vets Comm put him in..

I said that I didn't think any of THOSE guys, the 10 above, deserved it. What did I ever say about Fox?

TommyJohn
12-05-2008, 08:24 PM
Allen, Santo and Kaat won't make it, but it would be fun if they did. Why? Well, because they are ex-White Sox, but more specifically they were all members of the 1974 White Sox. If they were to make it, the 1974 Sox, who went 80-80 and were a year away from nearly moving to Seattle, would boast four Hall of Famers. (Rich Gossage is the other one.)

Not that it's a big deal. The 1966 Cubs had four Hall of Famers (Billy Williams, Ernie Banks, Feguson Jenkins and Robin Roberts) and they went 59-103.

DumpJerry
12-05-2008, 09:39 PM
Ritchie Allen played a big role in making a 9 year old Dumpjerry a White Sox fan in the early 70's.

Nellie_Fox
12-06-2008, 12:05 AM
So you don't think that Nellie Fox should have be in the HOF, since the Vets Comm put him in..He clearly did not say that anyone put in by the Veterans' Committee doesn't deserve it. He said they are there to right wrongs done by BBWA; he just said none on the list deserve it. I disagree, but I have to defend his post.

Dick Allen was one of the most feared hitters of his era (which was a pitcher-dominant era) and I think he deserves it.

The 1966 Cubs had four Hall of Famers (Billy Williams, Ernie Banks, Feguson Jenkins and Robin Roberts) and they went 59-103.Well, be realistic, Robin Roberts was at the absolute end of his career and had nothing left, and was with the Cubs for such a short period of time that I had completely forgotten about it. He pitched 48 and a third for the Cubs.

TDog
12-06-2008, 02:00 AM
Allen, Santo and Kaat won't make it, but it would be fun if they did. Why? Well, because they are ex-White Sox, but more specifically they were all members of the 1974 White Sox. If they were to make it, the 1974 Sox, who went 80-80 and were a year away from nearly moving to Seattle, would boast four Hall of Famers. (Rich Gossage is the other one.)

Not that it's a big deal. The 1966 Cubs had four Hall of Famers (Billy Williams, Ernie Banks, Feguson Jenkins and Robin Roberts) and they went 59-103.

I was thinking the same thing about the 1974 White Sox, who had three ties to go along with their 80 wins and 80 losses. Santo was the clubhouse cancer of the lot. Allen quit on the team, but he wasn't a clubhouse cancer.

Allen in 1972 was the most lethal hitter I've ever seen. He should have had a Hall of Fame career. But he didn't.

Tony Oliva would have had a Hall of Fame career but for crippling injuries that made him a poster boy for adoption of the DH rule. Like Dick Allen, he should have had a Hall of Fame career.

4 points
12-06-2008, 02:25 AM
He clearly did not say that anyone put in by the Veterans' Committee doesn't deserve it. He said they are there to right wrongs done by BBWA; he just said none on the list deserve it. I disagree, but I have to defend his post.
Dick Allen was one of the most feared hitters of his era (which was a pitcher-dominant era) and I think he deserves it.

Well, be realistic, Robin Roberts was at the absolute end of his career and had nothing left, and was with the Cubs for such a short period of time that I had completely forgotten about it. He pitched 48 and a third for the Cubs.

As was Santo, when he came to the Sox.:gulp::gulp:

4 points
12-06-2008, 02:28 AM
I always will remember the picture of Allen playing 1st base for the Phillies, it was taken from the upper deck, and you could see where he scrawled the word "BOO", in the dirt around him, in gigantic letters.:bandance::bandance::bandance:

Nellie_Fox
12-06-2008, 02:30 AM
I always will remember the picture of Allen playing 1st base for the Phillies, it was taken from the upper deck, and you could see where he scrawled the word "BOO", in the dirt around him, in gigantic letters.:bandance::bandance::bandance:He took to wearing a batting helmet in the field during his time in Philly, because of the "fans" throwing things at him.

RadioheadRocks
12-06-2008, 02:45 AM
So you don't think that Nellie Fox should have be in the HOF, since the Vets Comm put him in..


I'd say Nellie Fox is a perfect example of righting a wrong by the BBWA. Consider that in his 15th and final year on the writers' ballot, Nellie finished with 74.7% of the votes. Simple rounding procedures would have given him a 75%, however he was denied enshrinement due to not having a "pure" 75% of the vote. Basically he missed immortality by two votes in his final chance on the writers' ballot (two measly votes would have put him over the top).

It took 12 more years (including the moratorium to once again be eligible) but the Veterans Committee finally saw the light and gave Nellie his due (rumors were that Al Lopez was one of the major dissenters while he was on the Veterans Committee; it wasn't until after Lopez relinquished his duty that Nellie got in).

SoxfaninLA
12-06-2008, 03:14 AM
I doubt either Kaat or Allen will get in, although I think Allen probably deserves it. As long as they keep peg leg out I will be happy, the wailing and moaning coming out of cubbie nation evertime he gets denied gives me a good laugh every couple of years.

TommyJohn
12-06-2008, 09:29 AM
Well, be realistic, Robin Roberts was at the absolute end of his career and had nothing left, and was with the Cubs for such a short period of time that I had completely forgotten about it. He pitched 48 and a third for the Cubs.

True. I just like stuff like that from a trivia angle. Of course, if goood ol' Ronnie Baseball makes it, it will give the worst team in Cub history SIX total Hall of Famers. (They were managed by Leo Durocher.)

I will also point out that one of the worst teams in White Sox history-the 1932 squad (49-102) had three Hall of Famers: Luke Appling, Ted Lyons and Red Faber. Of course, Appling was at the beginning of his career and Faber was at the very end of his. (1933 would be his last year.)

JNS
12-06-2008, 10:12 AM
Dick was NEVER EVER a "cancer". Ask any one of his former teammates that I have interviewed (read them for yourself) or go to the WSI Interviews section and read the six part series on him that we were allowed to reprint by the author who worked with Dick in Texas.

You won't find a single negative word about him from anyone not in upper management.

Roland Hemond and Chuck Tanner have both said on numerous occasions that Dick saved the Sox for Chicago. (In truth he played a big part but Roland and Chuck also had a lot to do with that as well!)

Lip

Thanks Lip - I met Allen once. Very personable guy. Loved the ponies. Sometimes was rumored to lift a couple at McCuddy's although I never saw that. I thought the guy was too smart for the dumb jocks he had to hang around with professionally.

And Nellie is right - I NEVER saw anyone hit the ball harder, ever.

Kaat was amazing too. If it was a school night you would get home in time to do your homework. I think his average might have been under two hours. Mark reminds me of Kaat when he's working fast and getting guys out.

JNS
12-06-2008, 10:15 AM
He took to wearing a batting helmet in the field during his time in Philly, because of the "fans" throwing things at him.

He would scratch words in the Comiskey dirt too - not BOO, although I heard that as well, but stuff like RAH RAH or FANS. Just idle scratching with his spikes. Does anyone remember that:

-- He used a red rubber ball when tossing to the infielders between innings?
-- As good as he was, he just couldn't do the 3-6-3 DP; always hit the base runner in the back?

Lip Man 1
12-06-2008, 10:19 AM
Like with Frank Thomas in the 1990's, a lingering shoulder injury suffered in his fight with the Phils Frank Thomas, bothered him the rest of his career.

That's why he had issues throwing.

Lip

DickAllen72
12-06-2008, 10:22 AM
Like with Frank Thomas in the 1990's, a lingering shoulder injury suffered in his fight with the Phils Frank Thomas, bothered him the rest of his career.

That's why he had issues throwing.

Lip
I thought it was nerve damage suffered when he put his hand through a headlight while pushing his car during a rainstorm.

jabrch
12-06-2008, 10:43 AM
He clearly did not say that anyone put in by the Veterans' Committee doesn't deserve it. He said they are there to right wrongs done by BBWA; he just said none on the list deserve it. I disagree, but I have to defend his post.

Exactly...

6 Top 10 MVP finishes, including an MVP, 3 GGs..He had a great career, and in my eyes is a sensible HOFer. Not a slam dunk by any stretch of the imagination, but he fits on the outer edges. The VC did good there. (I'm too young to have seen Nellie play, but from all accounts, he did hang on about 3 years too long - but that happens with many guys.)

What amazes me most about Fox is his 42.74 AB/K rate. I can't think of anyone who has played in the modern era who is close to that. From looking down the list at BR.com (http://www.baseball-reference.com/leaders/ABpSO_career.shtml) there are a few who are close from the 30s and 40s, but nobody close in the 50s and 60s when pitching was pretty strong across the board.

I'm fine with the VC putting in Nellie Fox. I'd be less fine if Santo/Allen/Torre get in.

ode to veeck
12-06-2008, 11:58 AM
He was a clubhouse cancer.

yeah sure like how he taught pitchers like goose gossage to become much much more effective pitchers

ode to veeck
12-06-2008, 12:04 PM
I'd vote for Allen easily, and never for Santo

nobody hit the ball harder, like the line drives the went right past the 2nd baseman's head with no arc all the way over the wall

he had a legit shot at triple crown through at least 1st half of one of his "saved the sox" early 70s seasons

in spite of injuries that really shortened his days he still had a pretty damn good career

JNS
12-06-2008, 12:22 PM
I'd vote for Allen easily, and never for Santo

nobody hit the ball harder, like the line drives the went right past the 2nd baseman's head with no arc all the way over the wall

he had a legit shot at triple crown through at least 1st half of one of his "saved the sox" early 70s seasons

in spite of injuries that really shortened his days he still had a pretty damn good career

And he was always very exciting - hard hitting and really clutch.

I never understood the Santo cult in this town. He wasn't all that good, he was a bad winner and a bad loser. Brickhouse loved him and gave him good PR but he always seemed like a whiner to me. Kessenger closed out his career with the White Sox in a classy way. Santo in the same situation a year or two earlier was just pathetic.

PalehosePlanet
12-06-2008, 01:03 PM
6007


I think he belongs. Considering the pitchers era he played in his numbers are as good as anyones. By looking at the all time slugging pct. leaders the only player I see from that era that was higher lifetime is Frank Robinson.

Lip Man 1
12-07-2008, 11:32 AM
Dick:

That effected how he gripped a baseball but as far as actually throwing it, when Thomas slammed a bat on his shoulder during the fight, arthritis set in and gave him serious issues the rest of his career.

Lip

TommyJohn
12-07-2008, 12:25 PM
And he was always very exciting - hard hitting and really clutch.

I never understood the Santo cult in this town. He wasn't all that good, he was a bad winner and a bad loser. Brickhouse loved him and gave him good PR but he always seemed like a whiner to me. Kessenger closed out his career with the White Sox in a classy way. Santo in the same situation a year or two earlier was just pathetic.

Interesting contrast between Santo and Kessinger-all the more so because Kessinger was the manager of a sloppy, low-budget bad team given to him by Veeck. He still managed to exit gracefully, unlike Santo. Unfortunately, Ronnie Baseball seems the odds-on fave to make it.

http://www.suntimes.com/sports/baseball/cubs/1317783,CST-SPT-santo07.article

DickAllen72
12-07-2008, 01:28 PM
It would really suck if Santo gets into the hall of fame but not Dick Allen.

oldcomiskey
12-07-2008, 01:42 PM
as I child I remember Dick Allen as being THE GUY. Chuck Tanner called him the Cadillac of the day.

oldcomiskey
12-07-2008, 01:45 PM
I was thinking the same thing about the 1974 White Sox, who had three ties to go along with their 80 wins and 80 losses. Santo was the clubhouse cancer of the lot. Allen quit on the team, but he wasn't a clubhouse cancer.

Allen in 1972 was the most lethal hitter I've ever seen. He should have had a Hall of Fame career. But he didn't.

Tony Oliva would have had a Hall of Fame career but for crippling injuries that made him a poster boy for adoption of the DH rule. Like Dick Allen, he should have had a Hall of Fame career.

You gotta remember too that idiot sportswriters kept him out before. Im surprised they let Ted Williams and Steve Carlton in the way they treated the writers. Many have speculated thats why DiMaggio won the MVP in 41 instead of Williams

sox1970
12-07-2008, 01:46 PM
It would really suck if Santo gets into the hall of fame but not Dick Allen.

Neither one really deserves to be in the Hall.

Allen's first good year and last good year were 11 seasons apart. You have to have a little more longevity. Less than 400 homers. Less than 2000 hits. He was good, but not Hall worthy.

Santo had a real solid career but so did Ken Boyer, and he won't be getting in anytime soon.

oldcomiskey
12-07-2008, 01:48 PM
Exactly...

6 Top 10 MVP finishes, including an MVP, 3 GGs..He had a great career, and in my eyes is a sensible HOFer. Not a slam dunk by any stretch of the imagination, but he fits on the outer edges. The VC did good there. (I'm too young to have seen Nellie play, but from all accounts, he did hang on about 3 years too long - but that happens with many guys.)

What amazes me most about Fox is his 42.74 AB/K rate. I can't think of anyone who has played in the modern era who is close to that. From looking down the list at BR.com (http://www.baseball-reference.com/leaders/ABpSO_career.shtml) there are a few who are close from the 30s and 40s, but nobody close in the 50s and 60s when pitching was pretty strong across the board.

I'm fine with the VC putting in Nellie Fox. I'd be less fine if Santo/Allen/Torre get in.


Now how exzactley did the Viet Con...oh wait a minute, you didnt mean THAT VC

JNS
12-07-2008, 02:50 PM
...Kessinger was the manager of a sloppy, low-budget bad team given to him by Veeck. He still managed to exit gracefully, unlike Santo. Unfortunately, Ronnie Baseball seems the odds-on fave to make it.

Well put. I suppose we could argue whether Allen belongs - if his career had been longer I think he'd already be there.

As least he was an MVP and was pivotal in almost taking the Sox to a pennant against one of the best teams of the last 50 years - 72 As who arguably were one of the last real dynasties. And that was a team WITH A 3-MAN ROTATION (OK, one of them was Wood, but still...)! So it can't be argued that it was their great starters (Wood, Bradley, Bahnson with rookie Gossage as an occasional spot starter) who got them there. It was Allen with a little assistance from Carlos Lee, Pat Kelly, and Terry Forster.

Compare that to Santo's record with the Killer Bees. Sure he had some good seasons, but he never had the impact that Allen did.

I know this is about Allen and the Sox, but I just can't help myself sometimes - I've disliked (that's a mild characterization) Ronnie since I was in grade school.

DickAllen72
12-07-2008, 08:23 PM
Well put. I suppose we could argue whether Allen belongs - if his career had been longer I think he'd already be there.

As least he was an MVP and was pivotal in almost taking the Sox to a pennant against one of the best teams of the last 50 years - 72 As who arguably were one of the last real dynasties. And that was a team WITH A 3-MAN ROTATION (OK, one of them was Wood, but still...)! So it can't be argued that it was their great starters (Wood, Bradley, Bahnson with rookie Gossage as an occasional spot starter) who got them there. It was Allen with a little assistance from Carlos Lee, Pat Kelly, and Terry Forster.

Compare that to Santo's record with the Killer Bees. Sure he had some good seasons, but he never had the impact that Allen did.

I know this is about Allen and the Sox, but I just can't help myself sometimes - I've disliked (that's a mild characterization) Ronnie since I was in grade school.
You mean Carlos May. :wink:

JNS
12-07-2008, 08:57 PM
You mean Carlos May. :wink:

DOH! Of course you are correct.

And Ed Hermann - the slowest guy I ever saw. Maybe Lollar was slower, but I was a very little kid in those days and don't remember.

Pekoe - I think he passed away recently - was a fun guy. No arm, but a good leadoff man, and a big smile. I remember Harry talking about how his girlfriend was Pam Grier - the one and only Foxy Brown!

When you think about it, Tanner really got a lot out of those guys, when you consider how good the As were and who the Sox were. Dick Allen was the prime mover. One of the best single seasons I have ever seen.

DickAllen72
12-07-2008, 09:15 PM
And Ed Hermann - the slowest guy I ever saw. Maybe Lollar was slower, but I was a very little kid in those days and don't remember.

Pekoe - I think he passed away recently - was a fun guy. No arm, but a good leadoff man, and a big smile. I remember Harry talking about how his girlfriend was Pam Grier - the one and only Foxy Brown!

When you think about it, Tanner really got a lot out of those guys, when you consider how good the As were and who the Sox were. Dick Allen was the prime mover. One of the best single seasons I have ever seen.
One of my fondest memories of Hermann was the collision with Bert Capanaris at the plate. Hermann's pants were ripped and his leg bloodied but he stood his ground like a rock.

Pat Kelly was another of my favorites. He actually had a great arm in RF until a shoulder injury. After that his arm was never the same. Good hitter and fast on the basepaths too.

Dick Allen in 1972 was the most amazing player I ever saw. Hence my screen name. :smile:

JNS
12-07-2008, 09:22 PM
One of my fondest memories of Hermann was the collision with Bert Capanaris at the plate. Hermann's pants were ripped and his leg bloodied but he stood his ground like a rock.

Pat Kelly was another of my favorites. He actually had a great arm in RF until a shoulder injury. After that his arm was never the same. Good hitter and fast on the basepaths too.

Dick Allen in 1972 was the most amazing player I ever saw. Hence my screen name. :smile:

I remember that collision. Hermann was the epitome of a hard-nosed catcher. What an outfield. A left fielder with only 1/2 a thumb, and a right fielder with an arm injury, and clownish Jay Johnstone (and sometimes Rick Richardt (sp?) in CF. If Melton hadn't been hurt, the Sox might have taken the As.

There have been several threads here about various crucial homers Allen hit in 72. I was lucky enough to have been at the bat day DH in June of 72 when he came off the bench in the 9th inning of the 2nd game to hit one of those patented line drives over 2nd base and into the CF bullpens to win the game. I was 18 and it was my kid brother's 10th birthday - I was leading around a bevy of his buddies. I remember what a pain it was because they all had these little bat day bats and there were 50,000 people there and kids kept on getting lost!

Lip Man 1
12-07-2008, 09:56 PM
JNS:

I was at the famous "Taco Game" but your memory is faulty on the home run. It was a line shot into the lower deck in left center field. I have the game on tape.

Lip

DickAllen72
12-07-2008, 10:07 PM
I remember that collision. Hermann was the epitome of a hard-nosed catcher. What an outfield. A left fielder with only 1/2 a thumb, and a right fielder with an arm injury, and clownish Jay Johnstone (and sometimes Rick Richardt (sp?) in CF. If Melton hadn't been hurt, the Sox might have taken the As.

There have been several threads here about various crucial homers Allen hit in 72. I was lucky enough to have been at the bat day DH in June of 72 when he came off the bench in the 9th inning of the 2nd game to hit one of those patented line drives over 2nd base and into the CF bullpens to win the game. I was 18 and it was my kid brother's 10th birthday - I was leading around a bevy of his buddies. I remember what a pain it was because they all had these little bat day bats and there were 50,000 people there and kids kept on getting lost!
I remember the (rather tasteless) joke going around in '71 was that the Sox had an outfield consisting of a RFer with no neck, a CF with one kidney (Reichardt who Tanner played some in CF in '71) and a LFer with one thumb.

As for that famous Allen HR against Sparky Lyle, I graduated from 8th grade that day and watched that second game of the DH on TV. I was just telling my daughter about that HR and the "taco story" yesterday after we heard Allen's name mentioned on the car radio.

DumpJerry
12-07-2008, 10:43 PM
http://www.dugoutcentral.com/blog/?p=2118

Allen, Santo and Torre are in.

Here (http://www.whitesoxinteractive.com/vbulletin/showthread.php?p=2115900#post2115900) is the thread.

DickAllen72
12-07-2008, 10:49 PM
Dick Allen ... :bandance::bandance::bandance::gulp:

Ron Santo ... ugh...:puking:

PalehosePlanet
12-08-2008, 12:02 AM
:)YES!!!!!!!! One of the biggest reasons I became a Sox fan.

Congrats Dick! It's about time.

JNS
12-08-2008, 07:30 AM
JNS:

I was at the famous "Taco Game" but your memory is faulty on the home run. It was a line shot into the lower deck in left center field. I have the game on tape.

Lip

I am sure you are right - I was up on one of the ramps between the lower and upper decks - way in the back - sort of under the lower deck, so it was impossible to see how high any ball was hit. I just saw it go off the the bat and then everyone jumping around screaming. I was also trying to keep track of about eight ten-year-olds! I was just thinking about Allen's classic home run style - liner to straight away CF. I think you have mentioned this to me before in some thread or another...

JNS
12-08-2008, 07:32 AM
Dick Allen ... :bandance::bandance::bandance::gulp:

Ron Santo ... ugh...:puking:

At least it will shut up the Bees fans.

Save McCuddy's
12-08-2008, 07:39 AM
I'm not rooting for any of these guys. I just don't believe any warrant HOF consideration by the Vets. Comm. The Vets committee is there to right any wrongs made by the BBWA. I can't see how any of these guys are more deserving today than they were when their normal nomination period passed without success.

Torre will get in someday as a manager - but that shouldn't impact him as a player. Santo, Allen, etc. are close - but not close enough in my eyes.


Unfortunately, to this point the Vets Committees since the '50s have righted fewer wrongs than they have added in buddies and dilluted the greatness of the Hall.

While I don't think Santo, Oliva, Blyleven or Allen would dillute the greatness of the Hall, I tend to agree with your sentiment that those players had ample opportunity to be added by the BBWA and should have made it in by now if it were meant to be.

Rockabilly
12-08-2008, 07:39 AM
glad to hear that Dick Allen got into the HOF...

Save McCuddy's
12-08-2008, 08:00 AM
Hail to Richie.

Bummer that he has to go in with Ronny, but I feel confident that Ronny will do something to shame himself and the organization at his induction.

jabrch
12-08-2008, 10:06 AM
This sucks.

Allen, Santo AND Torre? I am officially thumbing my nose at the Hall of Pretty Good.

Lip Man 1
12-08-2008, 11:20 AM
If true congratulations to Dick.

Well done!

Lip

DSpivack
12-08-2008, 12:38 PM
If true congratulations to Dick.

Well done!

Lip

It's not.

http://www.whitesoxinteractive.com/vbulletin/showpost.php?p=2116325&postcount=32

Nellie_Fox
12-08-2008, 02:58 PM
It's not.

http://www.whitesoxinteractive.com/vbulletin/showpost.php?p=2116325&postcount=32I'm glad to see that they caught the glaring oversight of a former Yankee not in the HOF. I wonder how that has escaped their attention all these years.

TommyJohn
12-08-2008, 05:12 PM
Soxogram was a little premature.

DSpivack
12-08-2008, 05:16 PM
I'm glad to see that they caught the glaring oversight of a former Yankee not in the HOF. I wonder how that has escaped their attention all these years.

I like to think I have a pretty good knowledge of baseball history, but I had never heard of Joe Gordon.

voodoochile
12-08-2008, 06:12 PM
Soxogram was a little premature.

Sorry, there was a link to a site that said he got in. Silly me for believing stuff I read on the Internet...

NoNeckEra
12-08-2008, 06:23 PM
And he was always very exciting - hard hitting and really clutch.

I never understood the Santo cult in this town. He wasn't all that good, he was a bad winner and a bad loser. Brickhouse loved him and gave him good PR but he always seemed like a whiner to me. Kessenger closed out his career with the White Sox in a classy way. Santo in the same situation a year or two earlier was just pathetic.
1) Yes, Allen was clutch and electric. Worthy of the Sox' HOF but not MLB.
2) Santo was nothing more than a nice ballplayer who's numbers are tainted by the fact that he was never tested in September, since his team was never in the race. All I remember about the Cubs' lineup in the '60s and early '70s was that pitchers would pitch around Williams to get to Santo, who usually made the strategy pay off by striking out or hitting into a DP.

TommyJohn
12-08-2008, 06:55 PM
Sorry, there was a link to a site that said he got in. Silly me for believing stuff I read on the Internet...

Yeah! Shame! :redneck

It actually would have been fun to see Santo and Allen get in the same year. I was already anticipating them reliving the 1974 season by butting egos on their way to the podium.

JNS
12-08-2008, 06:58 PM
1) Yes, Allen was clutch and electric. Worthy of the Sox' HOF but not MLB.
2) Santo was nothing more than a nice ballplayer who's numbers are tainted by the fact that he was never tested in September, since his team was never in the race. All I remember about the Cubs' lineup in the '60s and early '70s was that pitchers would pitch around Williams to get to Santo, who usually made the strategy pay off by striking out or hitting into a DP.

That syncs with my memory - and back in those days I would usually only see the end of Cubs games after I came home from school. Once school was out I had better things to do with my time.

Even as a kid I thought the heel clicking thing was really bush. And, as I touched on in an earlier post, Allen pretty much carried the Sox - Santo never came close to doing that with the Cubs, and he had Williams - more deserving of the HOF that Ron IMO, Beckert, Banks, and a few other pretty good players. And the team still sucked.

I don't even want to comment on his endless maudlin lobbying for the HOF. I'd rather just refer folks to Boers and Bernstein's comments on the guy.

Sorry Dick didn't get in.

Viva Medias B's
12-08-2008, 09:34 PM
Keith Olbermann named the Veterans Committee one of his "Worst Persons in the World" tonight for not voting in Dick Allen, Jim Kaat, Gil Hodges, and Ron Santo.

sox1970
12-08-2008, 09:37 PM
Keith Olbermann named the Veterans Committee one of his "Worst Persons in the World" tonight for not voting in Dick Allen, Jim Kaat, Gil Hodges, and Ron Santo.

Well, that settles it...

Brewski
12-13-2008, 12:23 PM
And he was always very exciting - hard hitting and really clutch.

I never understood the Santo cult in this town. He wasn't all that good, he was a bad winner and a bad loser. Brickhouse loved him and gave him good PR but he always seemed like a whiner to me. Kessenger closed out his career with the White Sox in a classy way. Santo in the same situation a year or two earlier was just pathetic.

Kessinger was fired on the spot as manager when he failed to pinch hit for the pitcher the late innings of a blowout loss. That's when Veeck brought in LaRussa. So it wasn't that classy.

Lip Man 1
12-13-2008, 01:14 PM
Brewski:

Actually no that's not correct.

Kessinger requested a meeting with Veeck where he came out and told Bill that he didn't think he was the man for the job anymore because the players lost respect for him.

Veeck agreed but what shocked Don was the fact that the Sox let him go completely. He was a player-manager remember.

Don thought the Sox were going to keep him around as an infielder....Veeck had other ideas.

Lip

JNS
12-13-2008, 08:36 PM
Kessinger was fired on the spot as manager when he failed to pinch hit for the pitcher the late innings of a blowout loss. That's when Veeck brought in LaRussa. So it wasn't that classy.

My point was he didn't go out whining. Santo seems to have some sort of persecution complex.

TommyJohn
12-13-2008, 10:36 PM
Kessinger was fired on the spot as manager when he failed to pinch hit for the pitcher the late innings of a blowout loss. That's when Veeck brought in LaRussa. So it wasn't that classy.


?????????????

Pinch-hit for the pitcher????

In an American League game???????