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Sockinchisox
12-04-2008, 02:27 PM
On his conference call today with the media Kenny revealed somethings.

http://blogs.chicagosports.chicagotribune.com/sports_hardball/2008/12/williams-on-tra.html

- Lillibridge will be a super-sub much like Ozuna had done the previous seasons.

- Santos Rodriguez will be converted to a starter

- Viciedo has recieved clearence to come to the US so his signing will come possibly this month, he was also told to lose 10 lbs before spring training. He also believes Viciedo is athletic enough to play the OF.

- Listening mode at the Winter Meetings.

- Emphasis on youth does not mean they aren't going to try to win.

- Poreda will enter Spring Training as a starter but will most likely move to the pen.

sox1970
12-04-2008, 02:36 PM
Chris Stewart is back with the Sox org?

chisox616
12-04-2008, 02:40 PM
Listening mode at the Winter Meetings...is that good or bad for us?

sox1970
12-04-2008, 02:48 PM
Kenny's conference call:

http://chicago.whitesox.mlb.com/media/player/mp_tpl_3_1.jsp?w=/2008/open/teams08/cha/audio/120408_whitesox_cc.wma&w_id=894185&v=2&login=N&authorization=N&mid=200812043702067&pid=gen_audio&fid=gen_audio12&url=/2008/open/teams08/cha/audio/120408_whitesox_cc.wma&id=894185

esbrechtel
12-04-2008, 02:51 PM
Listening mode at the Winter Meetings...is that good or bad for us?

I see this in one of two ways...

1) everyone already knows what is available from the sox....
2) Maybe he is trying to keep everything hidden because he got burned last year (Hunter fiasco)

PennStater98r
12-04-2008, 03:31 PM
I see this in one of two ways...

1) everyone already knows what is available from the sox....
2) Maybe he is trying to keep everything hidden because he got burned last year (Hunter fiasco)

I know which one I believe it to be.

2906
12-04-2008, 04:03 PM
I found several things interesting in his comments.

One of the reporters pressed him about the 2009 team and whether his next acquisitions would be more "now" acquisitions vs. future. His response was basically, we want to see what the youth can do and if they can't do it, then we'll make an adjustment because we now have plenty of chips to trade (prospects).

He said he'd be turning his attention to the outfield now, not sure what that meant, because he said he'd be surprised if any more veterans would get moved. He did say the same thing he always says ... if there's someone better than we have now he'll certainly pursue it, if there's a fit and the player is available.

He commented how he could've picked a "major league ready" player from Atlanta along with Lillibridge and Flowers (pitcher Charlie Morton is my guess). But two of his scouts, Joe Butler and Warren Young, twisted his arm to acquire the two young kids, the lefthander and the 3B. Williams said he always likes to get a major league ready guy but he said that's why we scout. He thinks both the young players can make a big impact.

Regarding Chris Stewart, he must be back, because Williams was specifically asked "if the season starts today who is your backup catcher" to which he responded Chris Stewart or Corky Miller.

He also talked briefly about the state of the minor leagues. He said for sure they will be stronger in the Dominican and the draft. He likes the arms coming through the system, says there are quite a few especially due to the last two years of drafting.

Two interesting comments about money. He said the economy hasn't really affected how he's approachng the offseason although he always has his eye on the dollars. Then he said that "as we sit now, we're bumping up against our break even point".

Lastly on this Orlando Cabrera thing ... I did not take his remarks as a dig at OC whatsoever. He basically said "I don't think Orlando would want to come back here and sit on the bench. We've got Alexei Ramirez for SS and one of the kids for 2B."

BadBobbyJenks
12-04-2008, 04:03 PM
I thought the most interesting things he said were:

1) If Orlando Cabrera accepts arbitration he will be the highest paid back up in the history of the game. He says regardless of what OC does, Alexei is moving to short and Getz/Nix are fighting for second.
- I think he is just posturing to make sure OC doesn't accept because it would ruin his arbitration number next year to be benched, but there is no way he is not starting if he is on this team next year.

2) He does not intend to sign any big free agents including pitchers. He says Richard, Poreda, Marquez and Broadway are all fighting for the 4/5 spots.

3) The only thing he will be looking for is a centerfielder and leadoff man if available, but says everyone is looking for this.

munchman33
12-04-2008, 04:16 PM
I thought the most interesting things he said were:

1) If Orlando Cabrera accepts arbitration he will be the highest paid back up in the history of the game. He says regardless of what OC does, Alexei is moving to short and Getz/Nix are fighting for second.
- I think he is just posturing to make sure OC doesn't accept because it would ruin his arbitration number next year to be benched, but there is no way he is not starting if he is on this team next year.

2) He does not intend to sign any big free agents including pitchers. He says Richard, Poreda, Marquez and Broadway are all fighting for the 4/5 spots.

3) The only thing he will be looking for is a centerfielder and leadoff man if available, but says everyone is looking for this.


Ladies and gentlemen, you're 2009 Chicago White Sox:

2B Getz
SS Ramirez
LF Quentin
RF Dye
DH Thome
1B Konerko
C AJ
3B Fields/Viciedo
CF Anderson

SP1 Danks
SP2 Buehrle
SP3 Floyd
SP4 Marquez
SP5 Richard

Closer Jenks
Setup Linebrink
RHP Dotel
LHP Thornton
LHP Poreda
RHP Broadway

Bench
MI Lillibridge
CI Betemit
OF Owens
IF/OF Fields/Viciedo
C Lucy

Kenny I sure hope you know what you're doing...

WhiteSox5187
12-04-2008, 04:22 PM
I thought the most interesting things he said were:

1) If Orlando Cabrera accepts arbitration he will be the highest paid back up in the history of the game. He says regardless of what OC does, Alexei is moving to short and Getz/Nix are fighting for second.
- I think he is just posturing to make sure OC doesn't accept because it would ruin his arbitration number next year to be benched, but there is no way he is not starting if he is on this team next year.

2) He does not intend to sign any big free agents including pitchers. He says Richard, Poreda, Marquez and Broadway are all fighting for the 4/5 spots.

3) The only thing he will be looking for is a centerfielder and leadoff man if available, but says everyone is looking for this.
I really hope that's not true. As much as it would pain me I could live with a lineup that has the likes of Alexei, Getz, Konerko, Quentin, Thome, Fields, Dye, and Anderson, I dont think I could live with a rotation where we're counting on two of our kids to come through.

sox1970
12-04-2008, 04:23 PM
Ladies and gentlemen, you're 2009 Chicago White Sox:

2B Getz
SS Ramirez
LF Quentin
RF Dye
DH Thome
1B Konerko
C AJ
3B Fields/Viciedo
CF Anderson

SP1 Danks
SP2 Buehrle
SP3 Floyd
SP4 Marquez
SP5 Richard

Closer Jenks
Setup Linebrink
RHP Dotel
LHP Thornton
LHP Poreda
RHP Broadway

Bench
MI Lillibridge
CI Betemit
OF Owens
IF/OF Fields/Viciedo
C Lucy

Kenny I sure hope you know what you're doing...

As of now, I think Wise is on the team. I think Carrasco is on the team. Lucy is not--either Corky Miller or Chris Stewart (KW said today). Doubtful on Broadway. I think there is a good chance Poreda and Richard both make the team--one as a starter; one in the bullpen.

Also, it's December 4.

Rockabilly
12-04-2008, 04:28 PM
Ladies and gentlemen, you're 2009 Chicago White Sox:

2B Getz
SS Ramirez
LF Quentin
RF Dye
DH Thome
1B Konerko
C AJ
3B Fields/Viciedo
CF Anderson

SP1 Danks
SP2 Buehrle
SP3 Floyd
SP4 Marquez
SP5 Richard

Closer Jenks
Setup Linebrink
RHP Dotel
LHP Thornton
LHP Poreda
RHP Broadway

Bench
MI Lillibridge
CI Betemit
OF Owens
IF/OF Fields/Viciedo
C Lucy

Kenny I sure hope you know what you're doing...


I think the Sox will have 7 guys in the bullpen...

2906
12-04-2008, 04:31 PM
I did not hear KW mention Lance Broadway's name when discussing the possible rotation. I did hear him mention Marquez and Richard and Poreda.

soxfan21
12-04-2008, 04:38 PM
Ladies and gentlemen, you're 2009 Chicago White Sox:

2B Getz
SS Ramirez
LF Quentin
RF Dye
DH Thome
1B Konerko
C AJ
3B Fields/Viciedo
CF Anderson

SP1 Danks
SP2 Buehrle
SP3 Floyd
SP4 Marquez
SP5 Richard

Closer Jenks
Setup Linebrink
RHP Dotel
LHP Thornton
LHP Poreda
RHP Broadway

Bench
MI Lillibridge
CI Betemit
OF Owens
IF/OF Fields/Viciedo
C Lucy

Kenny I sure hope you know what you're doing...



I hope kw knows what he us doing as well. I know it is really early in the offseason and I don't mind getting young athletic talent and dumping pay roll but I just hope the young talent we have pays off next year. Like I said if the season started today I would be a little worried, but there is still a lot of time left this offseason and kenny always has something up his sleeve so we will see what happens at the winter meetings if anything.

veeter
12-04-2008, 04:38 PM
As candid as Kenny can be at times, on Dec 4th he's just talking. Last year's meetings, (Hunter and M. Cabrera thing), stung him and pissed him off. He'll probably never speak a full truth before spring training again.

sox1970
12-04-2008, 04:41 PM
As candid as Kenny can be at times, on Dec 4th he's just talking. Last year's meetings, (Hunter and M. Cabrera thing), stung him and pissed him off. He'll probably never speak a full truth before spring training again.

Agreed. When he said that he doesn't think he'll trade a veteran position player, I don't believe that. I think Dye will be on another team a week from now. I also think he's nuts if he doesn't get a bonafide CF/leadoff hitter.

CashMan
12-04-2008, 04:42 PM
as of now, i think wise is on the team.




lol

sox1970
12-04-2008, 04:45 PM
Wise started playoff games. He's on the 40-man. I think he's on the bench as of now.

veeter
12-04-2008, 04:48 PM
Agreed. When he said that he doesn't think he'll trade a veteran position player, I don't believe that. I think Dye will be on another team a week from now. I also think he's nuts if he doesn't get a bonafide CF/leadoff hitter.I think he's two for two on what he's wanted to do this off-season.(Actually 3 for 3 if you include Viciedo) It gets complicated at the meetings because every team and jack-ass reporter is there. But plan A is off to a good start.

veeter
12-04-2008, 04:49 PM
lolWhy all the Wise hate. He'll fill his same role as last year.

Evman5
12-04-2008, 04:51 PM
I really hope that's not true. As much as it would pain me I could live with a lineup that has the likes of Alexei, Getz, Konerko, Quentin, Thome, Fields, Dye, and Anderson, I dont think I could live with a rotation where we're counting on two of our kids to come through.


It has worked before, quite recently actually.

Metalthrasher442
12-04-2008, 05:19 PM
It has worked before, quite recently actually.

I was going to make the same exact comment.

I do think the odds are against us for the two young pitchers in our rotation succeeding thing.

I honestly would be very unhappy if he doesn't somehow manage another pitcher. I think he likes Owens, and would consider him as the lead off man over having the young pitchers dual it out for two spots.

Daver
12-04-2008, 05:21 PM
Why all the Wise hate. He'll fill his same role as last year.

I don't see any hate, just that he is not a CFer, a lot of Sox fans are tired of years worth of corner outfielders playing center field.

BadBobbyJenks
12-04-2008, 05:21 PM
I did not hear KW mention Lance Broadway's name when discussing the possible rotation. I did hear him mention Marquez and Richard and Poreda.

You might be right, I did not type Broadway at first, but I assumed he was part of that discussion, I don't remember if he was included or not. Regardless, the point is KW is saying that he is content with rotation without going after some one proven.

2906
12-04-2008, 05:24 PM
Regardless, the point is KW is saying that he is content with rotation without going after some one proven.

I got the same impression but I'm not sure I believe him because he was quick to add his usual "if we can find something better than we already have, and if they're available and it's a fit, we'll pursue it".

russ99
12-04-2008, 05:26 PM
Mark my words, if we go into spring with the roster we have now, 2007 will seem like a walk in the park in comparison.

I refuse to believe Kenny would just give up on the season, Paxson-style, so hopefully he's giving another of his typical "under the radar" misinformation statements and things end up a bit differently than what he's spelling out.

LoveYourSuit
12-04-2008, 05:28 PM
This tread is making me feel more blue than the economy.


As is, we have more holes than any Sox team I can remember.

munchman33
12-04-2008, 05:39 PM
This tread is making me feel more blue than the economy.


As is, we have more holes than any Sox team I can remember.

I don't see any "holes."

We have players with ability at EVERY position.

We don't have sure thing superstars at every spot. Get over it. Nobody does. Everyone has question marks. At least ours have multiple options and guys with different skills.

2B Getz (good contact, eye) and Nix (speed)
3B Fields and Viciedo (both with great power)
CF BA (tremendous defense)

You know what those guys are? Role players.

Clayton was going to be in the rotation regardless. And it seems more and more likely with every comment that Kenny believes Marquez is going to be a big time starter for us soon. Are they gambles? Yes. Does our season depend on them? Very likely. But Kenny isn't looking to just compete. And sometimes you have to gamble on youth with potential to win it all.

Lip Man 1
12-04-2008, 05:49 PM
You take everything Kenny says publicly with a grain of salt...ESPECIALLY after last year. And that includes talking about this season, "rebuilding" and so forth. Even if that is in fact, Kenny's plan, he's not stupid enough to say it out loud.

He understands what would happen to the fan base that has poured through the turnstyles since the start of the 2006 season.

Lip

Lip Man 1
12-04-2008, 05:53 PM
Munch:

Assuming the roster stays the same (and I don't) there are an awful lot of "role players" and "unknowns" for a "contending" team, in my opinion.

And that is especially true for the most important single commodity in baseball today...starting pitching.

Two question marks and two kids in Floyd or Danks who may have had breakthrough seasons in 2009 or fluke years. We just don't know for sure which is more to the "norm" for them.

That type of uncertainty in your starting pitching is a major worry to me.

Lip

munchman33
12-04-2008, 05:55 PM
You take everything Kenny says publicly with a grain of salt...ESPECIALLY after last year. And that includes talking about this season, "rebuilding" and so forth. Even if that is in fact, Kenny's plan, he's not stupid enough to say it out loud.

He understands what would happen to the fan base that has poured through the turnstyles since the start of the 2006 season.

Lip

We won the division last year. We've kept everyone who was a major contributer to that, sans Cabrera, who everyone knew was gone after this year anyway. Kenny doesn't have to make a big "splash" to bring people in the seats. The team is still intact. He got rid of the dead weight contracts that weren't helping us, and infused the team with youth and upside. We're a better team than we were last year already. People will come.

CashMan
12-04-2008, 05:56 PM
People will come.


Ray, people will come, Ray. They'll come to Iowa for reasons they can't even fathom. They'll turn up your driveway, not knowing for sure why they're doing it. They'll arrive at your door as innocent as children, longing for the past. "Of course, we won't mind if you have a look around," you'll say. "It's only twenty dollars per person." They'll pass over the money without even thinking about it; for it is money they have and peace they lack.

munchman33
12-04-2008, 05:57 PM
Munch:

Assuming the roster stays the same (and I don't) there are an awful lot of "role players" and "unknowns" for a "contending" team, in my opinion.

And that is especially true for the most important single commodity in baseball today...starting pitching.

Two question marks and two kids in Floyd or Danks who may have had breakthrough seasons in 2009 or fluke years. We just don't know for sure which is more to the "norm" for them.

That type of uncertainty in your starting pitching is a major worry to me.

Lip

Older, established starters break down easier. Pick your poison. I trust Kenny's judgement on Marquez, and I already believed Clayton's ready to have at least as good a year as Vazquez did last year (which won't be terribly difficult).

oeo
12-04-2008, 06:01 PM
Older, established starters break down easier. Pick your poison. I trust Kenny's judgement on Marquez, and I already believed Clayton's ready to have at least as good a year as Vazquez did last year (which won't be terribly difficult).

That's asking a lot of a guy that had trouble getting out of the 4th inning.

I agree on Marquez, though...Kenny knows what he wants Coop to fix. He's obviously high on him.

cards press box
12-04-2008, 06:05 PM
I don't see any "holes."

We have players with ability at EVERY position.

We don't have sure thing superstars at every spot. Get over it. Nobody does. Everyone has question marks. At least ours have multiple options and guys with different skills.

2B Getz (good contact, eye) and Nix (speed)
3B Fields and Viciedo (both with great power)
CF BA (tremendous defense)

You know what those guys are? Role players.

Clayton was going to be in the rotation regardless. And it seems more and more likely with every comment that Kenny believes Marquez is going to be a big time starter for us soon. Are they gambles? Yes. Does our season depend on them? Very likely. But Kenny isn't looking to just compete. And sometimes you have to gamble on youth with potential to win it all.

I agree that the Sox have greater depth than last season. I also don't think that the Sox are finished dealing. It would not surprise me to see the Sox acquire (through free agency or trade): (a) a back of the rotation starter on a one year contract, as insurance in case Richard or Marquez have a setback and (b) a leadoff man, preferably one who plays center field. If these Jermaine Dye rumors are true and the Sox deal Dye for a pitcher (say, Andy Sonnanstine of Tampa Bay), I could see the Sox shifting gears and acquiring David DeJesus from KC (likely for prospects) to play LF and lead off. The Sox would then have an outfield of DeJesus/Anderson/Quentin and a starting rotation of Danks/Floyd/Buerhle/Sonnanstine and either Richard or Marquez.

What's more, in the past few weeks, Kenny Williams has replenished a previously depleted farm system. I am very optimistic about the current direction of the White Sox.


Mark my words, if we go into spring with the roster we have now, 2007 will seem like a walk in the park in comparison.

I refuse to believe Kenny would just give up on the season, Paxson-style, so hopefully he's giving another of his typical "under the radar" misinformation statements and things end up a bit differently than what he's spelling out.

Right now, the Sox are much stronger and have much better depth than the 2007 Sox had. Moreover, if the above scenario plays out, the Sox will be stronger in '09 than they were in '08.

doublem23
12-04-2008, 06:08 PM
Older, established starters break down easier. Pick your poison. I trust Kenny's judgement on Marquez, and I already believed Clayton's ready to have at least as good a year as Vazquez did last year (which won't be terribly difficult).

Whoever you are, please log off munch's account.

KyWhiSoxFan
12-04-2008, 06:14 PM
The one area I think KW will still address is getting a fourth solid starter. I can't see three of the guys he's talking about--Marquez, Richard, Poreda--filling two slots, especially when he says Poreda will likely be in the pen. That means Marquez and Richard would both have to make the rotation and be successful. I don't feel confident about the chances of that coming to fruition.

I would not expect KW to stand up there and say he's still looking for a fourth starter. He knows the value of pitching, and good pitching keeps you in every game. With another solid starter the Sox would be competitive in their division.

Vazquez was not going to get the job done and both KW and Ozzie lost confidence in him. And rightfully so.

KRS1
12-04-2008, 06:44 PM
Diplomatic Kenny there, so no big surprises. The one thing that actually piqued my interest was his mention of them choosing Santos and Gilmore in lieu of one major-league (or major league ready) player. Gotta wonder who that one player was (Morton or Reyes?).

munchman33
12-04-2008, 07:13 PM
The one area I think KW will still address is getting a fourth solid starter. I can't see three of the guys he's talking about--Marquez, Richard, Poreda--filling two slots, especially when he says Poreda will likely be in the pen. That means Marquez and Richard would both have to make the rotation and be successful. I don't feel confident about the chances of that coming to fruition.

I would not expect KW to stand up there and say he's still looking for a fourth starter. He knows the value of pitching, and good pitching keeps you in every game. With another solid starter the Sox would be competitive in their division.

Vazquez was not going to get the job done and both KW and Ozzie lost confidence in him. And rightfully so.

What exactly makes a starter "solid?" It's all opinion. Most of the people on this board say established. I don't. I don't think Kenny does either. I prefer "talented." Talented players are solid. They have more upside. I'd say we have more "solid" starting options now than we did last year. Kenny's comments lead me to believe he agrees.

LoveYourSuit
12-04-2008, 07:36 PM
We won the division last year. .

It was a crappy division that took 163 games to win .....Not something I want to hang my hat on


. We're a better team than we were last year already. People will come.

As evidence by what?

munchman33
12-04-2008, 07:45 PM
As evidence by what?

Oh, I don't know, losing the worst statistical everyday position player and worst statistical 30+ start starter in the league from last year? Acquiring lots of young talent? Player progression from our young core? Juan Uribe's bat out of the everyday lineup?

There are a lot more reasons to believe we'll already be better next year than there are to believe we've regressed. People here are way too negative about things. Last year was significantly more questionable. We've got more sure things going into this year than last year, and lots more options to fill those holes.

Craig Grebeck
12-04-2008, 07:52 PM
Oh, I don't know, losing the worst statistical everyday position player and worst statistical 30+ start starter in the league from last year? Acquiring lots of young talent? Player progression from our young core? Juan Uribe's bat out of the everyday lineup?

There are a lot more reasons to believe we'll already be better next year than there are to believe we've regressed. People here are way too negative about things. Last year was significantly more questionable. We've got more sure things going into this year than last year, and lots more options to fill those holes.
Munch, please. Your hyperbole here is outstanding.

1. http://mlb.mlb.com/stats/sortable_player_stats.jsp?teamPosCode=1&statType=2&timeFrame=1&Submit=Submit&c_id=mlb&sitSplit=&venueID=&baseballScope=mlb&timeSubFrame=2008&&sortByStat=GS

Try and tell me Javy was the worst of all those guys.

2. There were many guys worse than Nick last season, most notably, Willy Taveras, who had quite possibly the worst offensive season ever in Coors.

3. As our starting third baseman, Juan was better than solid with the bat. At this point, we don't have a third baseman with his stick or glove.

4. I'd say it's pretty much not debatable that we've gotten worse.

champagne030
12-04-2008, 07:54 PM
Then he said that "as we sit now, we're bumping up against our break even point".


That's a load of bull****. We just massively cut payroll and jacked up ticket prices 10% across the board.

I sure as hell hope he's just playing the game and we're really not letting Richard and a pile of **** battle it out for two SP spots. And he better not be serious about a lineup that consists of Anderson/Owens, Getz/Nix and Fields/Betemit.

Rdy2PlayBall
12-04-2008, 07:59 PM
Munch:

Assuming the roster stays the same (and I don't) there are an awful lot of "role players" and "unknowns" for a "contending" team, in my opinion.

And that is especially true for the most important single commodity in baseball today...starting pitching.

Two question marks and two kids in Floyd or Danks who may have had breakthrough seasons in 2009 or fluke years. We just don't know for sure which is more to the "norm" for them.

That type of uncertainty in your starting pitching is a major worry to me.

LipEven if you think that about Danks and Floyd, their confidence levels have gone sky-rocketed more than anyone can feel at their age. With how well they performed there is no way they are going to start of the season thinking they are normal pitchers. It's not like they were the same pitchers out there anyway, both flirted with no hitters and that doesn't just happen as luck, especially against teams like the Red Sox and Twins. You'd be risking much more saying they are going to do poorly than saying they are going to be better. We can rely on Danks and Floyd for a while in my opinion. :rolleyes:

Craig Grebeck
12-04-2008, 08:01 PM
Despite my reservations about the roster, as it stands today, I'd love to see Lip's defense of the possibility that Danks was a fluke in 2008. Seriously. It'll be hilarious.

LoveYourSuit
12-04-2008, 08:02 PM
Oh, I don't know, losing the worst statistical everyday position player and worst statistical 30+ start starter in the league from last year? Acquiring lots of young talent? Player progression from our young core? Juan Uribe's bat out of the everyday lineup?

There are a lot more reasons to believe we'll already be better next year than there are to believe we've regressed. People here are way too negative about things. Last year was significantly more questionable. We've got more sure things going into this year than last year, and lots more options to fill those holes.

All of which at some point contributed to your "Great Divisional Title" you are so thrilled to hang your hat on. As crappy as those guys were (and I agree they needed to get moved), you still need formidable replacements to compete here in 2009. We picked up a bus load of young talent so far but in reality how much of it is ready to contribute here in 2009 for a so called contender?

And this time right now as is, has the most holes from any Kenny Sox team at any point. It's December, I expect him to make a few other big moves to close some of those holes.

Here are your question marks:

1. #4 starter
2. #5 starter
3. CF
4. 2B
5. 3B
6. Back up C

Off that bunch, you need to find a #1 and #2 hitter in that mix.

munchman33
12-04-2008, 08:06 PM
Munch, please. Your hyperbole here is outstanding.

1. http://mlb.mlb.com/stats/sortable_player_stats.jsp?teamPosCode=1&statType=2&timeFrame=1&Submit=Submit&c_id=mlb&sitSplit=&venueID=&baseballScope=mlb&timeSubFrame=2008&&sortByStat=GS

Try and tell me Javy was the worst of all those guys.

2. There were many guys worse than Nick last season, most notably, Willy Taveras, who had quite possibly the worst offensive season ever in Coors.

3. As our starting third baseman, Juan was better than solid with the bat. At this point, we don't have a third baseman with his stick or glove.

4. I'd say it's pretty much not debatable that we've gotten worse.

1. I said in the league, not in baseball. Although I see now I forgot about Brian Bannister. Javy was 2nd worst.

2. Once again, I said league. Not to mention, at least Taveras was bad because he's recovering from a leg injury. Nick wasn't even hurt.

3. What were his numbers there? I don't know, I'm just curious.

4. If you take expected production over actual production, sure. But Swisher and Vazquez weren't the players you thought they'd be last year. Saying they would surely be this year is a reach. And if you're going to gamble, why gamble with guys that are expensive?

LoveYourSuit
12-04-2008, 08:06 PM
That's a load of bull****. We just massively cut payroll and jacked up ticket prices 10% across the board.

I sure as hell hope he's just playing the game and we're really not letting Richard and a pile of **** battle it out for two SP spots. And he better not be serious about a lineup that consists of Anderson/Owens, Getz/Nix and Fields/Betemit.


But per Munch, we are a much better team for 2009 than we were last year. :rolleyes:

Sargeant79
12-04-2008, 08:11 PM
Am I the only one that sees the possibility of trading Dye for a 4th starter and then signing a guy like Bobby Abreu or Pat Burrell for play one of the corner spots on a 2 year deal? From what has been published about the market and the level of interest in these guys, a one or two year deal in the neighborhood of 8 mil or so a year might not be out of the question. They both play atrocious defense, but if we're looking for a little bit more of a sure thing with the bat, that would do it.

munchman33
12-04-2008, 08:11 PM
All of which at some point contributed to your "Great Divisional Title" you are so thrilled to hang your hat on. As crappy as those guys were (and I agree they needed to get moved), you still need formidable replacements to compete here in 2009. We picked up a bus load of young talent so far but in reality how much of it is ready to contribute here in 2009 for a so called contender?

And this time right now as is, has the most holes from any Kenny Sox team at any point. It's December, I expect him to make a few other big moves to close some of those holes.

Here are your question marks:

1. #4 starter
2. #5 starter
3. CF
4. 2B
5. 3B
6. Back up C

Off that bunch, you need to find a #1 and #2 hitter in that mix.

1. Our #4 lost 16 games last year and posted an era near 5.
2. Our #5 slot was worse.
3. Swisher was our CF last year. Hard to compete with those numbers...
4. Cabrera wasn't that good. And Getz has the tools to get on base regularly.
5. We've got two young options, and one guy looks like a monster. Not to mention, once again, bad production from that position last year.
6. For the 20 games AJ doesn't start?

We've got a lot of the same questions from last year. Only this year, we've got a lot more possible solutions. We are better.

munchman33
12-04-2008, 08:12 PM
Also, what the hell is going on. Everyone is turning on Kenny and I'M THE ONE DEFENDING HIM. Talk about bizarro universe.

Lip Man 1
12-04-2008, 08:13 PM
Champagne:

Well said.

---------------------

Grebeck:

I personally think Danks is going to be a good pitcher but until he actually strings together a few good years he doesn't have a track record does he? So, in fact, until we get more data to work with, 2008 could be a fluke.

MLB historically has seen many pitchers have one great year and that's all.

Unlike you I choose to see what a guy actually does on the field, not crunching numerical projections on a computer in my basement and then making "definitive" statements.

Lip

2906
12-04-2008, 08:13 PM
Here are your question marks:

1. #4 starter
2. #5 starter
3. CF
4. 2B
5. 3B
6. Back up C

Off that bunch, you need to find a #1 and #2 hitter in that mix.

As a fan, I agree. Kenny Williams seems to think differently, he feels 3B is covered between Fields, Betemit, and maybe Viciedo. He thinks 2B is covered with a combination of Getz, Nix, and Lillibridge.

He did comment he'd now turn his attention to the outfield. I don't know what that means but I'll wait it out.

Williams made an interesting statement when pressed about 2009 and whether it's realistic to expect to contend with all these young players on the roster. He said something to the effect of, we'll see what they can do, and if they can't do it, we have plenty of trading chips (prospects) to get proven veterans.

So ... it seems he thinks no one in the AL Central will be dominant, or run away with it by June/July. And he appears confident he can acquire whatever he might need if the young players falter.

Maybe so, but the pitching worries me. KW talked about how a good bullpen can back up a young starting staff but one injury can change all that in a hurry.

I'd lay money they'll bring in a veteran on a make-good type scenario, someone with savvy and competitiveness who can help the young pitchers along.

Hmmm ... who's out there?

BadBobbyJenks
12-04-2008, 08:16 PM
Also, what the hell is going on. Everyone is turning on Kenny and I'M THE ONE DEFENDING HIM. Talk about bizarro universe.

Because you love minor leaguers who have never produced at the big league level and that is what this Sox team will be relying on.

We are not better than last year right now. Our #5 starter is a huuuuggge question mark. I was fine with Richard taking that over, but I am a very uneasy about sliding Clayton to #4 and relying on a pitcher who wasn't even a top 10 Yankee prospect to step right in and be our #5.

I am sold on Josh Fields at 3b, but I am worried about 2b and CF as well as the pitching I just went over.

That being said Winter meetings haven't even started yet, but if Kenny is telling us the truth, I am worried.

delben91
12-04-2008, 08:16 PM
Also, what the hell is going on. Everyone is turning on Kenny and I'M THE ONE DEFENDING HIM. Talk about bizarro universe.

Munch, I'm not sure I can fully comprehend my thoughts, because I find myself agreeing with you.

I think Lillibridge will be very solid as a utility infielder, I really like the potential of Flowers, I think Richard showed a ton of potential in 2008 and will improve on it, and I'm trusting KW saw something very good in Marquez.

Still leaves the quesitons of who will take the 3B job, as well as CF and lead off, and the backup C position.

That said, I think we have solid options at all of those spots except maybe the backup catcher.

Obviously these are all best case answers to the Sox question marks, but that's the way I see things. KW isn't done yet, and I think he's done very well so far this offseason.

munchman33
12-04-2008, 08:20 PM
Because you love minor leaguers who have never produced at the big league level and that is what this Sox team will be relying on.



No. I just don't count being a minor leaguer against someone. I look for talent. I'd rather have the most talented person. I'm not going to prefer an aging veteran with decent numbers ready to break down over young, talented players ready to break out. And Kenny's doing it right. He's got more than one guy competing at those positions.

KyWhiSoxFan
12-04-2008, 08:20 PM
What exactly makes a starter "solid?" It's all opinion. Most of the people on this board say established. I don't. I don't think Kenny does either. I prefer "talented." Talented players are solid. They have more upside. I'd say we have more "solid" starting options now than we did last year. Kenny's comments lead me to believe he agrees.

When I mean solid I mean someone who is a proven winner in the majors. Past results are no guarantee of success, but I'll go with the pitcher who is proven. Talent means nothing without results.

I would not say the pitching staff today is more "solid" than last year. That's why I say the Sox still need another proven starter. There may be some upside in potential with a pitcher who is very talented, but neither Richard or Marquez have established themselves and are big question marks. If all it requires is "talent" to be more "solid" than last year, then just put Dexter Carter and Stephen Upchurch in the rotation.

LoveYourSuit
12-04-2008, 08:22 PM
As a fan, I agree. Kenny Williams seems to think differently, he feels 3B is covered between Fields, Betemit, and maybe Viciedo. He thinks 2B is covered with a combination of Getz, Nix, and Lillibridge.

He did comment he'd now turn his attention to the outfield. I don't know what that means but I'll wait it out.

Williams made an interesting statement when pressed about 2009 and whether it's realistic to expect to contend with all these young players on the roster. He said something to the effect of, we'll see what they can do, and if they can't do it, we have plenty of trading chips (prospects) to get proven veterans.

So ... it seems he thinks no one in the AL Central will be dominant, or run away with it by June/July. And he appears confident he can acquire whatever he might need if the young players falter.

Maybe so, but the pitching worries me. KW talked about how a good bullpen can back up a young starting staff but one injury can change all that in a hurry.

I'd lay money they'll bring in a veteran on a make-good type scenario, someone with savvy and competitiveness who can help the young pitchers along.

Hmmm ... who's out there?


This is my fear. It now appears that Kenny's target is to only win the Central instead of trying to hang with the big boys in ANA, NYY, & BOS. It's like he is pampering to some of the dumb Sox fans who get excited by winning a weak division.


God, I hope Kenny is just playing poker with us right now.

LoveYourSuit
12-04-2008, 08:24 PM
No. I just don't count being a minor leaguer against someone. I look for talent. I'd rather have the most talented person. I'm not going to prefer an aging veteran with decent numbers ready to break down over young, talented players ready to break out. And Kenny's doing it right. He's got more than one guy competing at those positions.


What the ****, are you a damn scout all of sudden?


How the hell do you know how good these guys are? or how "talented?"

munchman33
12-04-2008, 08:25 PM
For the record everyone...last year, we had 4 question marks in the rotation. Javy had one good year with us, and a history of not being good when it mattered. Danks and Floyd never "proved" anything until last year. Contreras was coming off a horrible season.

This year, we've got three starters returning that all figure to have good seasons. And two spots open for a number of talented guys.

LoveYourSuit
12-04-2008, 08:27 PM
Also, what the hell is going on. Everyone is turning on Kenny and I'M THE ONE DEFENDING HIM. Talk about bizarro universe.


I don't think we are turning on Kenny. It's way too early and he might be playing poker for all we know.

We are turning on ridiculous thougts here that "as is," this team is better right now than it was last year.


The farm system could be way better, no question. But what about by ML roster?

Lip Man 1
12-04-2008, 08:28 PM
Munch:

Based on your comment about "major league veterans ready to break down..." then do I assume you don't think minor league players don't?

Veeerrrryyyy interesting.

I'm sure Jerry Owens and Josh Fields would love your "philosophy."

I'm expecting Kenny to bring in more guys who, you know, can actually play but I'll withhold judgment until the Sox are into spring training.

If would be wonderful if you were right but I'm not going to bet the house on it.

Lip

munchman33
12-04-2008, 08:28 PM
What the ****, are you a damn scout all of sudden?


How the hell do you know how good these guys are? or how "talented?"

Keith Law.

I used to spend a lot of free time road tripping across the country visiting minor league parks. I've seen thousands of games. But that wasn't even what I was getting at. "Talented" prospects, especially pitchers, aren't difficult to spot.

2906
12-04-2008, 08:30 PM
This is my fear. It now appears that Kenny's target is to only win the Central instead of trying to hang with the big boys in ANA, NYY, & BOS. It's like he is pampering to some of the dumb Sox fans who get excited by winning a weak division.

Actually he sort of addressed this today in his comments.

One of the media, I think it was Jesse Rogers of WSCR, pressed him on 2009. KW commented he felt comfortable as is going to war vs. the Central but then backed off when the entire American League was brought up. He then segwayed into a discussion of free agents and how he hoped most would end up in the National League, and how he is sick of seeing all the top free agents land in the American League. Those type of comments can be analyzed and disected any number of ways ...

And then of course there's the school of thought that says just get to the playoffs, anything can happen. Which is why baseball is so great, strange things can happen and often do.

Daver
12-04-2008, 08:31 PM
I am sold on Josh Fields at 3b, but I am worried about 2b and CF as well as the pitching I just went over.


Me too.

The Sox will probably start a sub par defensive third baseman, an average at best second baseman, a SS that hasn't played the position much for an extended time, and a corner outfielder playing center, but all of them have shown an ability with the bat in the minors.

munchman33
12-04-2008, 08:32 PM
We are turning on ridiculous thougts here that "as is," this team is better right now than it was last year.



Everyone forgets what we went into the season with last year, especially in the rotation. We had ONE sure thing. That was it.

This year we have three. And a plethera guys competing for the other two spots.

LoveYourSuit
12-04-2008, 08:34 PM
For the record everyone...last year, we had 4 question marks in the rotation. Javy had one good year with us, and a history of not being good when it matter. Danks and Floyd never "proved" until last year. Contreras was coming off a horrible season.

This year, we've got three starters returning that all figure to have good seasons. And two spots open for a number of talented guys.


By that theory then Gavin and Danks are huge questions marks this year too. Only one good season, ever. So that makes it 4 quesiton marks in the rotation once again according to your theory, so looking to catch lighting in a bottle once again at #4 & #5, the same slots Gavin and Danks sat on last April.


And once again, take the scout suit off. It doesn't fit you. The only guy of that bunch trying out for those two starter slots that has Type A "talent" is Poreda and many think he is headed to the bullpen. I do not see a single Danks or Gavin in that bunch that will compete for those 2 starter spots, let alone a single guy that can even sniff 200+ innings next season.

Kenny needs to stop the bull**** and get a veteran arm in here very quickly.

munchman33
12-04-2008, 08:35 PM
Me too.

The Sox will probably start a sub par defensive third baseman, an average at best second baseman, a SS that hasn't played the position much for an extended time, and a corner outfielder playing center, but all of them have shown an ability with the bat in the minors.

I think Viciedo runs away with the 3B job, Getz hits for a good OBP like his numbers suggest he will, Alexei plays gold glove defense at short like the Sox think he will, and BA takes over center and plays wonderful defense there.

Maybe I'm optimistic. But it would be the first time any of you accused me of that.

2906
12-04-2008, 08:36 PM
This year we have three. And a plethera guys competing for the other two spots.

I tend to share your optimism on this topic but I'm curious as to who constitutes a plethora. Not looking to argue here, just wondering, because I count Clayton Richard and Jeff Marquez and that's about it. By KW's comments today, either Poreda or Richard is earmarked for a bullpen slot, I would guess Poreda because he's got less experience.

I'm not seeing much else as competition for the #4 and #5, I'm certainly not counting Lance Broadway. What am I missing here?

munchman33
12-04-2008, 08:36 PM
By that theory then Gavin and Danks are huge questions marks this year too. Only one good season, ever. So that makes it 4 quesiton marks in the rotation once again according to your theory, so looking to catch lighting in a bottle once again at #4 & #5, the same slots Gavin and Danks sat on last April.


Except they don't have 11 years of service saying they'll crap there pants when the team is good. They're a lot more of a sure thing than Javy was last year. Even if you take them as questions, they're surely less questionable than last year's staff was then.

sox1970
12-04-2008, 08:37 PM
By that theory then Gavin and Danks are huge questions marks this year too. Only one good season, ever. So that makes it 4 quesiton marks in the rotation once again according to your theory, so looking to catch lighting in a bottle once again at #4 & #5, the same slots Gavin and Danks sat on last April.


And once again, take the scout suit off. It doesn't fit you. The only guy of that bunch trying out for those two starter slots that has Type A "talent" is Poreda and many think he is headed to the bullpen. I do not see a single Danks or Gavin in that bunch that will compete for those 2 starter spots, let alone a single guy that can even sniff 200+ innings next season.

Kenny needs to stop the bull**** and get a veteran arm in here very quickly.

He will. There's no way he's sticking with Marquez and Richard/Poreda as a 4 and 5. They'll get a major league experienced starting pitcher, and then one or six of the youngsters will be the #5.

BadBobbyJenks
12-04-2008, 08:39 PM
No. I just don't count being a minor leaguer against someone. I look for talent. I'd rather have the most talented person. I'm not going to prefer an aging veteran with decent numbers ready to break down over young, talented players ready to break out. And Kenny's doing it right. He's got more than one guy competing at those positions.

Either do I, but what has Marquez shown you that makes you think he is the most talent person for the job?

Why are you confident about centerfield and second base?

munchman33
12-04-2008, 08:39 PM
He will. There's no way he's sticking with Marquez and Richard/Poreda as a 4 and 5. They'll get a major league experienced starting pitcher, and then one or six of the youngsters will be the #5.

There's no way he's sticking with Danks, Floyd, and Contreras in the rotation at 3, 4, and 5. He just has to do something.

2906
12-04-2008, 08:40 PM
He will. There's no way he's sticking with Marquez and Richard/Poreda as a 4 and 5. They'll get a major league experienced starting pitcher, and then one or six of the youngsters will be the #5.

I'm wondering (not campaigning, just wondering) if they're considering/talking to Pedro Martinez. Both KW and Guillen have been enamored with him in the past.

munchman33
12-04-2008, 08:40 PM
Either do I, but what has Marquez shown you that makes you think he is the most talent person for the job?

Why are you confident about centerfield?

Because it's all relative to last year. We had horrible defense and horrible offense out of that position. All Brian has to do is play defense and we're already better than last year at that spot.

Marquez was a sandwich pick. He's got four pitches that have potential to at least be MLB average. He's got really good control. His ground ball to fly ball ratio has always been good (important here).

Sargeant79
12-04-2008, 08:42 PM
I tend to share your optimism on this topic but I'm curious as to who constitutes a plethora.


El Guapo: "Would you say I've got a plethora of pinatas?"

LoveYourSuit
12-04-2008, 08:42 PM
I think Viciedo runs away with the 3B job, Getz hits for a good OBP like his numbers suggest he will, Alexei plays gold glove defense at short like the Sox think he will, and BA takes over center and plays wonderful defense there.

Maybe I'm optimistic. But it would be the first time any of you accused me of that.

So who leads off for you in this great line up you put together, Anderson?

sox1970
12-04-2008, 08:43 PM
There's no way he's sticking with Danks, Floyd, and Contreras in the rotation at 3, 4, and 5. He just has to do something.

Marquez and Poreda haven't pitched in the bigs. Floyd and Danks had enough ML innings to determine they were ready. To me, it's pretty out there to think Marquez is in the picture to make the team out of spring training.

LoveYourSuit
12-04-2008, 08:44 PM
I'm wondering (not campaigning, just wondering) if they're considering/talking to Pedro Martinez. Both KW and Guillen have been enamored with him in the past.


He's old and washed up..... yup, he fits the mold.

He, Randy Johnson, & Tom Glavine are in line right now.

Craig Grebeck
12-04-2008, 08:46 PM
1. I said in the league, not in baseball. Although I see now I forgot about Brian Bannister. Javy was 2nd worst.

2. Once again, I said league. Not to mention, at least Taveras was bad because he's recovering from a leg injury. Nick wasn't even hurt.

3. What were his numbers there? I don't know, I'm just curious.

4. If you take expected production over actual production, sure. But Swisher and Vazquez weren't the players you thought they'd be last year. Saying they would surely be this year is a reach. And if you're going to gamble, why gamble with guys that are expensive?
1. Again, debatable that he was even that bad last season. He was solid as hell up until the final month. People can wax poetic all they want about him not performing in the "clutch", but we wouldn't have even been there if not for his performance during the seaosn.

2. Okay.

3. As a third baseman, .283/.332/.439.

4. I don't think we're done with the staff or CF. All in all, I don't have a problem with the Vazquez trade. With Swisher, I think we received ****.


Grebeck:

I personally think Danks is going to be a good pitcher but until he actually strings together a few good years he doesn't have a track record does he? So, in fact, until we get more data to work with, 2008 could be a fluke.

MLB historically has seen many pitchers have one great year and that's all.

Unlike you I choose to see what a guy actually does on the field, not crunching numerical projections on a computer in my basement and then making "definitive" statements.

Lip
Saying something could or could not be a fluke is usually supported by some evidence, no? Danks was not overly lucky statistically or anecdotally, the guy challenged hitters, improved his control, and struck out a good amount. This was not Brandon McCarthy circa 2005, this was a young pitcher having a (near) breakout season.

Since 1995, Danks is one of only ten guys to put up a season with a 2.5 K/BB ratio or better, a HR/9 IP of .69 or better, or an ERA+ of 130 or better in their first four years in the league between the ages of 23 and 25 (Minimum of 150 IP). The other nine: Kazmir, Peavy, Vazquez, Hamels, Millwood, Ismael Valdez, Hermanson, Mulder, and Sheets.

This was not a fluke.

munchman33
12-04-2008, 08:46 PM
Marquez and Poreda haven't pitched in the bigs. Floyd and Danks had enough ML innings to determine they were ready. To me, it's pretty out there to think Marquez is in the picture to make the team out of spring training.

Marquez has four mlb ready pitches, good control, and gets a lot of ground balls. He doesn't have that one great pitch like Floyd does, but he's probably more ready than Danks was two years ago.

LoveYourSuit
12-04-2008, 08:47 PM
There's no way he's sticking with Danks, Floyd, and Contreras in the rotation at 3, 4, and 5. He just has to do something.


Are you drunk? :scratch:

All thread you have been confident and saying that they have this "plethora" of young pitchers that will fill the #4 and #5 spots in the roation and now you make this comment.

Craig Grebeck
12-04-2008, 08:47 PM
So who leads off for you in this great line up you put together, Anderson?
I'm not Munch, but I certainly wouldn't object to Getz leading off.

Craig Grebeck
12-04-2008, 08:49 PM
Marquez has four mlb ready pitches, good control, and gets a lot of ground balls. He doesn't have that one great pitch like Floyd does, but he's probably more ready than Danks was two years ago.
Do you really think he's better than Poreda? If he has four MLB pitches, he'd have actually missed some bats in AAA.

oeo
12-04-2008, 08:50 PM
I'm not Munch, but I certainly wouldn't object to Getz leading off.

I agree. I was thinking about this earlier. He's definitely the closest thing we have to a leadoff hitter right now (and since Pods). The question is, is he ready to step into an every day role yet?

LoveYourSuit
12-04-2008, 08:50 PM
Marquez has four mlb ready pitches, good control, and gets a lot of ground balls. He doesn't have that one great pitch like Floyd does, but he's probably more ready than Danks was two years ago.

Right, because we stole one from the the great Yankees.

They were so deep in the starting rotation the last 3 season that this diamond fell right to our hands. :rolleyes:

sox1970
12-04-2008, 08:51 PM
Marquez has four mlb ready pitches, good control, and gets a lot of ground balls. He doesn't have that one great pitch like Floyd does, but he's probably more ready than Danks was two years ago.

If Marquez wants to win the 5th spot in spring training, great. I just don't think it's in Kenny's plan to go to spring training with two spots open to guys with less than 10 ML starts combined. That's not likely.

munchman33
12-04-2008, 08:52 PM
1. Again, debatable that he was even that bad last season. He was solid as hell up until the final month. People can wax poetic all they want about him not performing in the "clutch", but we wouldn't have even been there if not for his performance during the seaosn.

2. Okay.

3. As a third baseman, .283/.332/.439.

4. I don't think we're done with the staff or CF. All in all, I don't have a problem with the Vazquez trade. With Swisher, I think we received ****.


Saying something could or could not be a fluke is usually supported by some evidence, no? Danks was not overly lucky statistically or anecdotally, the guy challenged hitters, improved his control, and struck out a good amount. This was not Brandon McCarthy circa 2005, this was a young pitcher having a (near) breakout season.

Since 1995, Danks is one of only ten guys to put up a season with a 2.5 K/BB ratio or better, a HR/9 IP of .69 or better, or an ERA+ of 130 or better in their first four years in the league between the ages of 23 and 25 (Minimum of 150 IP). The other nine: Kazmir, Peavy, Vazquez, Hamels, Millwood, Ismael Valdez, Hermanson, Mulder, and Sheets.

This was not a fluke.


On Javy...that's assumming his replacement doesn't win games down the stretch. Javy still went what, 12-16 with a 4.67 era? If that had been stretched out evenly over the whole season (which it never would with Javy, but I'll humor you) we'd lose some extra games during the year (less than one a month) but win more important games down the stretch. Being up a game or down a game in the stretch run is less important than winning games down the stretch.

On Uribe....WOW.

dickallen15
12-04-2008, 08:52 PM
Marquez has four mlb ready pitches, good control, and gets a lot of ground balls. He doesn't have that one great pitch like Floyd does, but he's probably more ready than Danks was two years ago.

His numbers in AAA last year would indicate otherwise.

Rockabilly
12-04-2008, 08:53 PM
Jayson Stark and Steve Phillips reports that the Sox are very interest in Jorge Cantu..

this would be a great pickup

KRS1
12-04-2008, 08:54 PM
Me too.

The Sox will probably start a sub par defensive third baseman, an average at best second baseman, a SS that hasn't played the position much for an extended time, and a corner outfielder playing center, but all of them have shown an ability with the bat in the minors.

Since, I know you're being sarcastic...

About the SS part. Alexei was primarily a SS in Cuba, so that is the only thing wrong with your statement.

I'm good with Getz at second, since I think him hitting in the 9-hole is pretty ideal for us. Every time I have seen him play he's impressed me with the way he just does everything like a real pro, and his approach to both sides of the ball is just findamentally solid. He's just a ballplayer, with pretty good skills across the board to boot.

I can handle Josh/Dayan at third, because I think both could provide some power at the bottom of the order, regardless of the poor D either will probably play. However, like I said in another thread, we need to get a pretty good CF to bat at the top of the order to make up for those youngsters at the bottom. I won't hold my breath for that, but hopefully we don't trot JO or Wise out there on a regular basis.

oeo
12-04-2008, 08:55 PM
His numbers in AAA last year would indicate otherwise.

He had arm fatigue problems last year, so that's not a very good indicator.

Craig Grebeck
12-04-2008, 08:55 PM
Jayson Stark and Steve Phillips reports that the Sox are very interest in Jorge Cantu..

this would be a great pickup
Other than the fact that he wears his glove on his head.

2906
12-04-2008, 08:56 PM
Well here's another one for the 5th starter derby, Sox have signed former Pirate 1st rounder John Van Benschoten to a minor league deal:

http://insider.espn.go.com/espn/blog/index?entryID=3745862&searchName=stark_jayson&campaign=rsssrch&source=jayson_stark&action=login&appRedirect=http%3a%2f%2finsider.espn.go.com%2fesp n%2fblog%2findex%3fentryID%3d3745862%26searchName% 3dstark_jayson%26campaign%3drsssrch%26source%3djay son_stark

LoveYourSuit
12-04-2008, 08:58 PM
Jayson Stark and Steve Phillips reports that the Sox are very interest in Jorge Cantu..

this would be a great pickup


That would be huge, but man, another IF who can't lead off?

But at this point, I will take him over all the options at 3B or 2B.

kittle42
12-04-2008, 08:59 PM
What exactly makes a starter "solid?"

If he's not a liquid or gas.

LoveYourSuit
12-04-2008, 08:59 PM
Other than the fact that he wears his glove on his head.


LOL ..... Come on, can he be any worse than Fields?

sox1970
12-04-2008, 09:00 PM
Well here's another one for the 5th starter derby, Sox have signed former Pirate 1st rounder John Van Benschoten to a minor league deal:

http://insider.espn.go.com/espn/blog/index?entryID=3745862&searchName=stark_jayson&campaign=rsssrch&source=jayson_stark&action=login&appRedirect=http%3a%2f%2finsider.espn.go.com%2fesp n%2fblog%2findex%3fentryID%3d3745862%26searchName% 3dstark_jayson%26campaign%3drsssrch%26source%3djay son_stark

Kenny loves former 1st round picks like Hawk loves email.

Rockabilly
12-04-2008, 09:00 PM
That would be huge, but man, another IF who can't lead off?

But at this point, I will take him over all the options at 3B or 2B.


our lead off man will come from CF..

Craig Grebeck
12-04-2008, 09:00 PM
People do realize Cantu wasn't that good last year, right? Slightly above average offense with such terrible defense isn't that valuable. A year ago, Cantu was available for peanuts, and we shouldn't give up any talent for him now.

kittle42
12-04-2008, 09:00 PM
Well here's another one for the 5th starter derby, Sox have signed former Pirate 1st rounder John Van Benschoten to a minor league deal.

Now *there's* a guy who sucks.

delben91
12-04-2008, 09:01 PM
Other than the fact that he wears his glove on his head.

He can join Carlos Lee in Daver's glove on the head club. Not sure if anyone else is a member...

Craig Grebeck
12-04-2008, 09:02 PM
Now *there's* a guy who sucks.
I think I heard that he used to be a position player and would be well served to convert back. Possibility?

LoveYourSuit
12-04-2008, 09:05 PM
Now *there's* a guy who sucks.
LOL .... Coop will fix him (with a shot of Cuervo live from Cork And Kerry)

Rockabilly
12-04-2008, 09:07 PM
If the Sox can get Cantu for very little talent going back to Fla, I would do it..

Craig Grebeck
12-04-2008, 09:08 PM
If the Sox can get Cantu for very little talent going back to Fla, I would do it..
Still, no thanks.

LoveYourSuit
12-04-2008, 09:10 PM
If the Sox can get Cantu for very little talent going back to Fla, I would do it..


Cantu would hit 30 HRs at the Cell and depending on where he hits in the line up could drive 90+, look at the place he played in.

Might be the cushion needed (for power numbers) if Dye is moved.

KRS1
12-04-2008, 09:10 PM
Cantu? So we want Swisher minus the walks?

LoveYourSuit
12-04-2008, 09:10 PM
Still, no thanks.


He's making $600K, why not?

You rather have Getz/Nix at 2B?

Or Fields at 3B?

Craig Grebeck
12-04-2008, 09:12 PM
Cantu would hit 30 HRs at the Cell and depending on where he hits in the line up could drive 90+, look at the place he played in.

Might be the cushion needed (for power numbers) if Dye is moved.
Away: .241/.294/.400/.694
Home: .313/.361/.562/.923

Pass. He hit at home, but we need improved infield defense.

Craig Grebeck
12-04-2008, 09:12 PM
He's making $600K, why not?

You rather have Getz/Nix at 2B?

Or Fields at 3B?
Cantu is a DH. He can't field anywhere.

LoveYourSuit
12-04-2008, 09:13 PM
Away: .241/.294/.400/.694
Home: .313/.361/.562/.923

Pass. He hit at home, but we need improved infield defense.


I can gurantee his home stats would translate to our park and perhaps even improve.

I think he can be an adequate glove at 2B, reason not there this season was because Ugla plays there.

Craig Grebeck
12-04-2008, 09:14 PM
I can gurantee his home stats would translate to our park and perhaps even improve.

I think he can be an adequate glove at 2B, reason not there this season was because Ugla plays there.
On what do you base this reasoning?

Daver
12-04-2008, 09:15 PM
On what do you base this reasoning?

Typical Sox fan rationale, all he needs to do is hit, defense is strictly optional.

getonbckthr
12-04-2008, 09:16 PM
Away: .241/.294/.400/.694
Home: .313/.361/.562/.923

Pass. He hit at home, but we need improved infield defense.
In his defense, home was Florida last season.

LoveYourSuit
12-04-2008, 09:16 PM
On what do you base this reasoning?

Park factor. Cell is as good if not a better hitting ballpark than Joe Robbie.


If you dump Dye, you will be looking for power numbers elsewhere.

Craig Grebeck
12-04-2008, 09:17 PM
In his defense, home was Florida last season.
I know. Strange home/away stats, but probably because he drives it in the gaps.

DSpivack
12-04-2008, 09:18 PM
Typical Sox fan rationale, all he needs to do is hit, defense is strictly optional.

Is his defense any worse than Fields'?

LoveYourSuit
12-04-2008, 09:18 PM
Typical Sox fan rationale, all he needs to do is hit, defense is strictly optional.


When you play at the park you play in.... you have no choice but to hit.
You can't give up your only homefield advantage.

Craig Grebeck
12-04-2008, 09:19 PM
When you play at the park you play in.... you have no choice but to hit.
You can't give up your only homefield advantage.
If we want to continue to have a good pitching staff, we should attempt to field a decent defensive infield.

LoveYourSuit
12-04-2008, 09:22 PM
If we want to continue to have a good pitching staff, we should attempt to field a decent defensive infield.


It was never great to begin with.

And with the prospects of the #4 and #5 spots on the roation, 2009 looks to be one of those years again where we will have to slugg our way to win each night.

Strong bullpen and slugging is what I see again (unfortunately).

Rockabilly
12-04-2008, 09:23 PM
Fields was over matched at the plate last year and his defense sucks..

I really don't want to be him be our starter at 3rd next season

Daver
12-04-2008, 09:23 PM
When you play at the park you play in.... you have no choice but to hit.
You can't give up your only homefield advantage.

This is just funny as hell.

Craig Grebeck
12-04-2008, 09:24 PM
It was never great to begin with.

And with the prospects of the #4 and #5 spots on the roation, 2009 looks to be one of those years again where we will have to slugg our way to win each night.

Strong bullpen and slugging is what I see again (unfortunately).
It was pretty damn good. Not many better.

sox1970
12-04-2008, 09:25 PM
Fields was over matched at the plate last year and his defense sucks..

I really don't want to be him be our starter at 3rd next season

I don't either, but I'll give him a pass on his production for 2008. He was beat up all year.

LoveYourSuit
12-04-2008, 09:25 PM
Fields was over matched at the plate last year and his defense sucks..

I really don't want to be him be our starter at 3rd next season


IMO, Cantu would not be that bad of stop gap if Viciendo is not ready.

Craig Grebeck
12-04-2008, 09:27 PM
IMO, Cantu would not be that bad of stop gap if Viciendo is not ready.
I'd rather just play Fields. Same level defensively, and probably has similar upside offensively. Of course, I'd prefer our third baseman play defense -- and I think Fields is capable of improvement.

LoveYourSuit
12-04-2008, 09:27 PM
It was pretty damn good. Not many better.

Our pitching sucked the 2nd half of last season. Complete bullpen collapse and ZERO from the #4 and #5 spots in the rotation.

Four guys held down the tent and that's it (Thornton, Buehrle, Danks, Gavin).

Craig Grebeck
12-04-2008, 09:29 PM
Our pitching sucked the 2nd half of last season. Complete bullpen collapse and ZERO from the #4 and #5 spots in the rotation.

Four guys held down the tent and that's it (Thornton, Buehrle, Danks, Gavin).
Jenks? Javy (up until September)? Carrasco?

We had a great pitching staff last year. Top 5 in the AL.

LoveYourSuit
12-04-2008, 09:31 PM
I'd rather just play Fields. Same level defensively, and probably has similar upside offensively. Of course, I'd prefer our third baseman play defense -- and I think Fields is capable of improvement.




Fields will never sniff a .275 career average as Cantu ... EVER. And they are both the same age.


and I don't know what you base "Fields is capable of improvement" with the glove.

Craig Grebeck
12-04-2008, 09:32 PM
Fields will never sniff a .275 career average as Cantu ... EVER. And they are both the same age.


and I don't know what you base "Fields is capable of improvement" with the glove.
He's capable of improvement. He's never going to be above average, but I think he can get better.

Rockabilly
12-04-2008, 09:34 PM
He's capable of improvement. He's never going to be above average, but I think he can get better.


I hope you're right...

LoveYourSuit
12-04-2008, 09:34 PM
Jenks? Javy (up until September)? Carrasco?

We had a great pitching staff last year. Top 5 in the AL.

5 out of 14 is not great in my book, especially when the staff sucked so bad the second half. Reason they even finished 5th is due to the big cushion they built in April and May before crapping out.


The staff was not that good after the allstar break.

LoveYourSuit
12-04-2008, 09:36 PM
He's capable of improvement. He's never going to be above average, but I think he can get better.


Well, at the same age, couldn't Cantu improve to?

Craig Grebeck
12-04-2008, 09:36 PM
5 out of 14 is not great in my book, especially when the staff sucked so bad the second half. Reason they even finished 5th is due to the big cushion they built in April and May before crapping out.


The staff was not that good after the allstar break.
Well, to be fair, they had a horrible defense behind them in the second half. Griffey was in CF, Uribe was a step down from Crede (even with the errors, Joe was fantastic), and Ramirez was a step down from Uribe at 2B.

Craig Grebeck
12-04-2008, 09:37 PM
Well, at the same age, couldn't Cantu improve to?
He could, but I don't see the upside in developing a very average player when we've got one in Fields as well as Viciedo.

Daver
12-04-2008, 09:38 PM
He's capable of improvement. He's never going to be above average, but I think he can get better.

Based on what? The two years with 0 improvement playing in Charlotte?

You can't teach reaction time, and you can't really improve it either.

LoveYourSuit
12-04-2008, 09:39 PM
Well, to be fair, they had a horrible defense behind them in the second half. Griffey was in CF, Uribe was a step down from Crede (even with the errors, Joe was fantastic), and Ramirez was a step down from Uribe at 2B.


Right, because all the other 13 teams in the AL had 7 gold glovers playing behind their pitching staff.

The bullpen sucked because of walks and the long ball. Not sure how you can blame the defense on that, unless you want the OFs to go play in the bleachers.

Craig Grebeck
12-04-2008, 09:39 PM
Based on what? The two years with 0 improvement playing in Charlotte?

You can't teach reaction time, and you can't really improve it either.
Repetition, repetition, repetition. I think he has pretty poor range and reaction time, but if he can improve his footwork and hands he can be slightly better.

LoveYourSuit
12-04-2008, 09:42 PM
He could, but I don't see the upside in developing a very average player when we've got one in Fields as well as Viciedo.


There is no upside, it's a cheap in-expensive stop gap for Viciendo.

kittle42
12-04-2008, 09:43 PM
There are really a lot of uninformed statements and baseless opinions in this thread. I am not saying I know anything - that is why I am not making any of those statements, but I do know this.

Craig Grebeck
12-04-2008, 09:43 PM
There is no upside, it's a cheap in-expensive stop gap for Viciendo.
But he won't come cheaply -- there were rumors they were asking for Jonathan Sanchez from the Giants.

RedPinStripes
12-04-2008, 09:44 PM
Based on what? The two years with 0 improvement playing in Charlotte?

You can't teach reaction time, and you can't really improve it either.

:canseco

"Yes you can, Daver"

LoveYourSuit
12-04-2008, 09:44 PM
There are really a lot of uninformed statements and baseless opinions in this thread. I am not saying I know anything - that is why I am not making any of those statements, but I do know this.

Thanks for your informative participation ... :tongue:

Rockabilly
12-04-2008, 09:45 PM
But he won't come cheaply -- there were rumors they were asking for Jonathan Sanchez from the Giants.

if that is the case the Marlins can keep him...

sunofgold
12-04-2008, 09:45 PM
That would be my first priority. Another veteran starter pitcher...could be a very short contract. Marquez or Richard for 5th starter.

Give Owens a chance at center and leadoff. BA is nice insurance. Is there really any leadoff CF available? Seems like KW wants to convert Viciedo to a corner OF.

We have tons of options now in our infield. Don't forget that Beckham is progressing nicely.

KW is high on Fields at 3B, Getz at 2B (with Beckham possibly coming up quickly). We have Cuban missile at SS. Future infield of Fields, Ramirez, Beckham (with insurance of Viciedo moving back to 3rd and Getz).

We have some nice players now in our minors like Flowers, Danks, Beckham, Viciendo (probably starts in AAA), Rodriquez, Gilmore (wonder if they would convert him to 1B?), Nunez.

Picks from losing Cabrera.

We are in pretty good shape right now. Just want another starter for SOX-Mas. Don't trade Dye. We have some extra cash now to spend on a pitcher.

LoveYourSuit
12-04-2008, 09:46 PM
if that is the case the Marlins can keep him...


I agree, assuming those are the demands.

Brian26
12-04-2008, 09:47 PM
There are really a lot of uninformed statements and baseless opinions in this thread. I am not saying I know anything - that is why I am not making any of those statements, but I do know this.

Yes, I never knew WSI had so many Jorge Cantu experts.

LoveYourSuit
12-04-2008, 09:51 PM
Yes, I never knew WSI had so many Jorge Cantu experts.

It appears there are experts here for every guy who has ever once touched a baseball.

I want someone to breakdown my profile soon.


I need a profile on Don Markapolis too.

Daver
12-04-2008, 09:53 PM
Yes, I never knew WSI had so many Jorge Cantu experts.

Everyone that plays fantasy baseball is an expert on every player in both leagues, just ask them.

kittle42
12-04-2008, 09:56 PM
Yes, I never knew WSI had so many Jorge Cantu experts.

It appears there are experts here for every guy who has ever once touched a baseball.

Everyone that plays fantasy baseball is an expert on every player in both leagues, just ask them.

No kidding. The best arguments are always the ones about minor leaguers of any sort and defense of major league player X. You absolutely know that 95% of the people in the discussion are talking 100% out of their asses.

CWSpalehoseCWS
12-04-2008, 09:58 PM
So when did we sign Chris Stewart and Corky Miller?

champagne030
12-04-2008, 09:59 PM
Marquez has four mlb ready pitches

:bong:

Frontman
12-04-2008, 10:19 PM
Shall I be the voice of reason and point out its only December 4th?

Also, every time Kenny does this "I don't think we'll be...." he more often than not DOES do what he says he doesn't think he'll do.

Until they all report in Arizona; this team is still in flux. So, as it stands; the Sox aren't "complete" yet.

No team is at this point. We'll see what happens with OC (and if he takes the deal, I agree with Bernstein that he'll start at SS, with Alexei back over at 2B. There's no way the Sox are going to pay THAT much for a bench player.)

Let's see what happens first. In 2006, we all heard the "On paper, this team should not only make the playoffs but defend their title." We all know how that turned out.

In 2008, I think the only two people on the planet who believed in the 2008 White Sox were Ozzie and Kenny. How many of us laughed at Kenny's comments that the Tigers would now compete with the Sox after the Cabrera deal?

Anything, and I do mean anything; can happen.

Brian26
12-04-2008, 10:25 PM
No kidding. The best arguments are always the ones about minor leaguers of any sort and defense of major league player X. You absolutely know that 95% of the people in the discussion are talking 100% out of their asses.

My favorite is watching guys break down Viciedo's defense based on 15-seconds of Youtube footage when they can't spell his name and had never seen a photograph of the guy, let alone video, before today.

munchman33
12-04-2008, 10:29 PM
:bong:


They're all major league passable only though. He could get by with his control, and if the pitches improve he could be good. Evidently, Kenny thinks he will.

champagne030
12-04-2008, 10:33 PM
They're all major league passable only though. He could get by with his control, and if the pitches improve he could be good. Evidently, Kenny thinks he will.

He doesn't have control.......

I understand that Coop will fix him, just like he'll fix McCulloch this spring and he'll be the 2009 version of Danks.

I hope he's better than Kenny thought MacDougal would be when he traded for him and then signed him to a 3 year extension and the way that Coop fixed him.

rdivaldi
12-04-2008, 10:39 PM
They're all major league passable only though. He could get by with his control, and if the pitches improve he could be good. Evidently, Kenny thinks he will.

Marquez has two passable major league pitches, his fastball and his change. The others are works in progress. Looking at video and assorted scouting reports, I'm pretty confident that his control will come. His motion is compact, smooth and easily repeatable.

WhiteSoxFan84
12-04-2008, 10:51 PM
Kenny is a great business man but would also make a solid politician. He knows how to talk a good game, especially with the statement he made that if OC accepts arbitration that he'll be riding the bench, alexei will start at SS, and "one of the kids" will start at 2nd. to quote hawk, "that is total B-S!". there is noooo way OC will be on the bench if he accepts and comes back for 2009. he'll be our starting SS without a shadow of a doubt. but the tough talk makes it clear that the sox do not want OC back and did what they did just to get the draft picks. but if he does accept, kenny maybe upset and his plans may have to change, but OC will start.

PalehosePlanet
12-04-2008, 10:56 PM
I found several things interesting in his comments.

One of the reporters pressed him about the 2009 team and whether his next acquisitions would be more "now" acquisitions vs. future. His response was basically, we want to see what the youth can do and if they can't do it, then we'll make an adjustment because we now have plenty of chips to trade (prospects).
"

Am I the only one that finds this statement extremely confusing?

If the kids fail in this scenario, isn't it too late to fix the problem for 2009? Is he talking about making changes in season? If so wouldn't that be harder to do because the price in trades may be higher as well as the fact that we obviously can not sign free agents at that time?

It seems to me that if the kids fail that we would have to adjust the team for 2010 amd that 2009 would be lost.

champagne030
12-04-2008, 11:02 PM
Am I the only one that finds this statement extremely confusing?

If the kids fail in this scenario, isn't it too late to fix the problem for 2009? Is he talking about making changes in season? If so wouldn't that be harder to do because the price in trades may be higher as well as the fact that we obviously can not sign free agents at that time?

It seems to me that if the kids fail that we would have to adjust the team for 2010 amd that 2009 would be lost.

I also found his statements confusing. We're at our 'salary cap', but if it doesn't work we can trade these young guys for veterans.....that would add significant salary. That's why I call bull**** and he's not close to being done. We've got $25M to spend on 2009........

Daver
12-04-2008, 11:30 PM
I also found his statements confusing. We're at our 'salary cap', We've got $25M to spend on 2009........

There is no salary cap in MLB, and when did you get hired as an accountant by the Chicago White Sox?

btrain929
12-04-2008, 11:37 PM
Here are your question marks:

1. #4 starter
2. #5 starter
3. CF
4. 2B
5. 3B
6. Back up C

You may think they are question marks, but the fact is (or, I'm fairly certain that) we are heading into 2009 filling the #5 starter, 2B, and 3B in-house. So you can take 3 of those out of your list because I highly doubt anything more will be done to address those positions. #4 starter I agree I hope is address, and backup catcher you can snag up in January. CF is going to be interesting. When he was asked about a leadoff CF'er, he said "tell me a leadoff hitting CF'er that is available." This makes me think he still has confidence in Owens. Hopefully that is BS, but I wouldn't put it past him.

When I mean solid I mean someone who is a proven winner in the majors.

There may be some upside in potential with a pitcher who is very talented, but neither Richard or Marquez have established themselves.

According to this line of thinking, you would never have any youngsters in your rotation because you'll always be going after the FA "proven winner." How can a minor league pitcher prove/establish himself if all your doing is looking for someone who is solid, or in your words, "someone who is a proven winner in the majors?"

Getz hits for a good OBP like his numbers suggest he will.

How does one "hit for a good OBP?" :D:

We'll see what happens with OC. There's no way the Sox are going to pay THAT much for a bench player.)

Let's see what happens first. In 2006, we all heard the "On paper, this team should not only make the playoffs but defend their title." We all know how that turned out.

If Cabrera accepts, I'm 99% sure he'll be traded to get that money off the books. More teams would be willing to trade for him since he's only on a 1 year deal, as supposed to the 3 year deal he's probably looking for now. Also in 2006, on paper, we should have defended our title. The players just didn't perform to their levels down the stretch (Contreras, Buehrle, dead offense).

Marquez has two passable major league pitches, his fastball and his change. The others are works in progress. Looking at video and assorted scouting reports, I'm pretty confident that his control will come. His motion is compact, smooth and easily repeatable.

From the scouts I've read about Marquez, he has the good sinker, a plus change, good control of those 2 pitches, and is just kinda-sorta using the curve and slider here and there. Sometimes they work, sometimes they don't. If he can get one of those working on an average level, he should be fine.

That's why I call bull**** and he's not close to being done. We've got $25M to spend on 2009........

We may have $25 MIL to spend (even though according to my math, we've shed only 19MIL from our 2008 payroll), but I think we'd be lucky if he spent even $10 MIL more this offseason. Who do you see him throwing a buttload of cash at?

whitesox901
12-04-2008, 11:37 PM
Yes, I never knew WSI had so many Jorge Cantu experts.

Are you kidding? Half of them on here are writing his Biography

champagne030
12-04-2008, 11:40 PM
There is no salary cap in MLB, and when did you get hired as an accountant by the Chicago White Sox?

That's why I put it in 'quotes'. I'm referring to Kenny's statement that they're at max salary.

champagne030
12-04-2008, 11:56 PM
We may have $25 MIL to spend (even though according to my math, we've shed only 19MIL from our 2008 payroll), but I think we'd be lucky if he spent even $10 MIL more this offseason. Who do you see him throwing a buttload of cash at?

I see us losing:

Javy:$11.5M
Cabrera: $8.5M
Crede:$5.1M
Swish: $3.5M
Uribe: $4.5M
Tuby: $1.6M

That's $34.7M without any raises for our current players.


I don't see them spending a "buttload" on anyone, but the thought that they're at the top of their budget is complete bull**** or Jerry has taken a massive hit on his portfolio and he's going to milk Sox fans to pad his pocket.

btrain929
12-04-2008, 11:57 PM
I see us losing:

Javy:$11.5M
Cabrera: $8.5M
Crede:$5.1M
Swish: $3.5M
Uribe: $4.5M
Tuby: $1.6M

That's $34.7M without any raises for our current players.


I don't see them spending a "buttload" on anyone, but the thought that they're at the top of their budget is complete bull**** or Jerry has taken a massive hit on his portfolio and he's going to milk Sox fans to pad his pocket.

I replied in "Sox sign Viciedo" where I broke down the player raises, and where I got my numbers from, if you're interested. But I agree that if shedding all that money and they are "just" getting at even just doesn't make sense.

PS I think Cabrera's salary was only 7MIL because LA gave us 1.5MIL along with him. That's what brought me to 33MIL.

SoxFan88
12-05-2008, 12:00 AM
That would be my first priority. Another veteran starter pitcher...could be a very short contract. Marquez or Richard for 5th starter.

Give Owens a chance at center and leadoff. BA is nice insurance. Is there really any leadoff CF available? Seems like KW wants to convert Viciedo to a corner OF.

We have tons of options now in our infield. Don't forget that Beckham is progressing nicely.

KW is high on Fields at 3B, Getz at 2B (with Beckham possibly coming up quickly). We have Cuban missile at SS. Future infield of Fields, Ramirez, Beckham (with insurance of Viciedo moving back to 3rd and Getz).

We have some nice players now in our minors like Flowers, Danks, Beckham, Viciendo (probably starts in AAA), Rodriquez, Gilmore (wonder if they would convert him to 1B?), Nunez.

Picks from losing Cabrera.

We are in pretty good shape right now. Just want another starter for SOX-Mas. Don't trade Dye. We have some extra cash now to spend on a pitcher.



Like it but maybe trade Lillibridge, BA, and Broadway for Bailey... rather have him battle it out with Marquez for the 5th spot and put Richard in the pen to keep Thornton from wearing down towards the end of the season... not a Wise fan but he filled the 4th OF spot nicely last year

KRS1
12-05-2008, 12:01 AM
That's why I put it in 'quotes'. I'm referring to Kenny's statement that they're at max salary.

I think his exact words were, "We're at our break even point."

Doesn't mean we don't spend more, probably just that everyone in the org has come together and decided this is their conservative marker for profitability. Or he could just be BS'ing? :redneck

champagne030
12-05-2008, 12:17 AM
PS I think Cabrera's salary was only 7MIL because LA gave us 1.5MIL along with him. That's what brought me to 33MIL.

His salary was $9M and he was due an additional $1M of a prorated bonus. They gave us $1.5M in the trade.

I think his exact words were, "We're at our break even point."

Doesn't mean we don't spend more, probably just that everyone in the org has come together and decided this is their conservative marker for profitability. Or he could just be BS'ing? :redneck

And I'm still calling bull****. They say we're at 95% renewal of season tickets and jacked up the ticket/parking prices. I'm getting way too worked up on what I believe it positioning by Kenny. We're going to add payroll and talent before we get to Arizona next spring.

hawkjt
12-05-2008, 02:53 AM
Saw ESPN's projection on the AL Central offseason moves and basically no one is expanding payroll. Twinkies are going to bid for Casey Blake but only want to give him 2 years..and the Tigers and Indians are looking for improvement from within due to money concerns. KC ...staying the course.

Basically, I think Kenny thinks he can sneak by a year with a lower payroll and still win this division while positioning for the future.

Last year I was very pessimistic. I was before 05 also. I remain a bit pessimistic...seems to be an ok thing.

palehozenychicty
12-05-2008, 09:05 AM
Saw ESPN's projection on the AL Central offseason moves and basically no one is expanding payroll. Twinkies are going to bid for Casey Blake but only want to give him 2 years..and the Tigers and Indians are looking for improvement from within due to money concerns. KC ...staying the course.

Basically, I think Kenny thinks he can sneak by a year with a lower payroll and still win this division while positioning for the future.

Last year I was very pessimistic. I was before 05 also. I remain a bit pessimistic...seems to be an ok thing.


These are interesting comments and should be taken into account when looking at the division. I think that KC could be the team that has a major improvement in performance. They've been very active, and if they can get another corner OF, 2B, and starter on the cheap, look out.

The Tigers are the only other spender in the division, and they're desperately cutting costs.

Cleveland and Minnesota are always the wild cards in this division. Recently, they do very little and it pays off. Sometimes they flatline from the start.

The problem now is that the AL East is even stronger than usual with the rise of Tampa. Baltimore and Toronto will be reasonably competititve.

It's too early to predict anything.....sigh

Hokiesox
12-05-2008, 09:38 AM
Peter Gammons was on SC last night saying the economy in Detroit is getting so bad that the Tigers won't have any money to spend on FA's. Cleveland can't be too far behind in this aspect. While I feel bad for the city, I don't for the Tigers or the Indians. I'd love to see if we can sneak by for a year with a lower team salary. Let the kids play II?

Even if we suck next season, in the grand scheme of things we still have 3 playoff appearances in the decade, and one championship. That's nothing to sneeze at given the previous 50 years. I'm still as optimistic as ever during an offseason.

jabrch
12-05-2008, 10:15 AM
Peter Gammons was on SC last night saying the economy in Detroit is getting so bad that the Tigers won't have any money to spend on FA's. Cleveland can't be too far behind in this aspect. While I feel bad for the city, I don't for the Tigers or the Indians. I'd love to see if we can sneak by for a year with a lower team salary. Let the kids play II?

Even if we suck next season, in the grand scheme of things we still have 3 playoff appearances in the decade, and one championship. That's nothing to sneeze at given the previous 50 years. I'm still as optimistic as ever during an offseason.

Hindsight is 20/20....of course

But they must really be regretting gutting their farm system for Willis and Miguel Cabrerra, then comitting so much money to the two of them, and having to virtually write off all of the Willis money, and lower their expectations on the return from the Cabrerra money.

I'd have done that deal if I were them too - don't get me wrong. But in hindsight, it looks like an awful move.

DSpivack
12-05-2008, 11:03 AM
Hindsight is 20/20....of course

But they must really be regretting gutting their farm system for Willis and Miguel Cabrerra, then comitting so much money to the two of them, and having to virtually write off all of the Willis money, and lower their expectations on the return from the Cabrerra money.

I'd have done that deal if I were them too - don't get me wrong. But in hindsight, it looks like an awful move.

Dealing for Cabrera and Willis is one thing, why they signed Dontrelle to an extension I have no idea.

Sargeant79
12-05-2008, 11:09 AM
Dealing for Cabrera and Willis is one thing, why they signed Dontrelle to an extension I have no idea.

Agreed. That was a head scratcher even at the time it was done.

SoxfaninLA
12-05-2008, 12:05 PM
I see us losing:

Javy:$11.5M
Cabrera: $8.5M
Crede:$5.1M
Swish: $3.5M
Uribe: $4.5M
Tuby: $1.6M

That's $34.7M without any raises for our current players.




Off the top of my head I know Dotel is getting an extra 1 million, Linebrink, Thornton, and AJ are due roughly 500k, Mac is getting another 700k (what a waste he is), JD is getting another 2 million. Jenks is arbitration eligible and only made 550k last year so I would expect that to go to at least 4, possible 5 million. Thome is a bit of a question mark in that some people say we are getting money from the Phillies, some people say we aren't, so that could be a large chunk of change as well. You have to add Viciedo's salary as well as the pre-arb guys like Danks and Floyd. They won't make a ton more but it will be more than last year. They may also be clearing money to offer an extension to TCQ middle of next year if he starts off '09 like he did '08.

Overall I will be unhappy if this is the team we go into opening day with. I am fine with going in with a question mark at #5, but we need a #4 starter to compete. I don't like Richard as a starting option because he had a tendency to look great the first 3 or 4 innings and then it was bombs away the second and third time through the lineup. Love him out of the bullpen as a longman but don't like him taking the ball every 5th day for 5 or 6 innings.

Of course I don't think there is any shot we go into April with the roster like this. Moves will be made and I will be shocked if another pitcher is not brought in.

SoxfaninLA
12-05-2008, 12:09 PM
Dealing for Cabrera and Willis is one thing, why they signed Dontrelle to an extension I have no idea.

The extension was ridiculous at the time and I just laughed as everyone blew kisses to Dombrowski. Willis is a bad pitcher and an anchor financially to them. Luckily for us in this climate Detroit will find it almost impossible to move him unless they give up something good or eat a ton of the salary. Outside of the Yankees or Red Sox no one is going to even think about getting stuck with that salary the next 3 years.

Flight #24
12-05-2008, 01:50 PM
From watching Kenny's moves and hearing him speak over the past decade or so, I have a hard time believing that there's any meaningful reduction in payroll going on. There may not be an increase, and you have to factor in if any payments from other teams are ceasing, etc, but I can't see them doing a major cut of payroll unless their internal projections for ticket sales are dramatically reduced for 2009.

That said, I think Kenny may well have been influenced by last offseason. He thought he had Miguel Cabrera in the bag, but then when the Tiggers agreed to take Willis (and his salary) as well, he lost out. So I wonder if he's trading decent but not great players with reasonable salaries to free up room to take on other mediocre players with reasonable salaries who are packaged with younger, better players that he wants to acquire. That would be the opposite of what the team has usually done, but it would be a smart move to say something like "I'll pay this year's version of Dontrelle instead of Javy and if I have to go with a youngster instead if I can get this year's version of Cabrera".

And he's added anywhere from decent to excellent young talent in the bargain either to assist in make a trade or to have in reserve.

Just a thought.

CWSpalehoseCWS
12-06-2008, 05:47 PM
Just in case anyone was wondering, we did sign Corky Miller.

He's the link: http://www.kolotv.com/sports/headlines/34564044.html

Guess that must mean Chris Stewart is back too, like KW said. I don't know why nothing was ever said on the Sox site or anywhere else. Even BA didn't pick it up.

champagne030
12-06-2008, 06:46 PM
Just in case anyone was wondering, we did sign Corky Miller.

He's the link: http://www.kolotv.com/sports/headlines/34564044.html

Guess that must mean Chris Stewart is back too, like KW said. I don't know why nothing was ever said on the Sox site or anywhere else. Even BA didn't pick it up.

I'd like a "defense first" backup catcher, but this is a little extreme.