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View Full Version : Do You Like The Vazquez To The Braves Trade?


Thome25
12-03-2008, 11:56 AM
Count me as one of the WSIers who likes this trade. When got rid of a pitcher who's psyche was as tough as marshmallow and who also crapped his pants when the games really meant something.

We got back some young ballplayers who look to have alot of potential. Tyler Flowers looks like a pretty good young power hitter in the making.

This also frees up some money to possibly use on some other players though I'm not counting on it.

So what do you think of the trade yay or nay? THANKS for posting.:D:

doublem23
12-03-2008, 11:57 AM
If the Sox find another pitcher to replace Javier, then yes.

If not, no.

EDIT: I should note, I believe 100% that the Sox will add another pitcher by Opening Day. If not, I will bitch and moan like a little girl.

aryzner
12-03-2008, 11:57 AM
Cannot judge until more moves are made and the pitching staff is more solidified.

SoxSpeed22
12-03-2008, 11:59 AM
Ask me in two months. I want to see what Kenny does next.
For all of Javy's flaws, he was dependable for 200+ innings and could strike people out. Those kind of pitchers don't grow on trees. The Sox took the chance on trading him to try and get more wins for less money.

russ99
12-03-2008, 12:06 PM
We need a middle option:

Noncommittal - I don't mind getting rid of Javy for prospects, but how does this help the team in 2009? More to come?

JB98
12-03-2008, 12:09 PM
I don't like Vazquez, and I'm glad he's gone. I have faith that KW will find another pitcher that will make our starting rotation better.

Thome25
12-03-2008, 12:11 PM
I don't like Vazquez, and I'm glad he's gone. I have faith that KW will find another pitcher that will make our starting rotation better.

I have faith in KW too.....He has proven time and again that he knows when it's time to jump ship and cut his losses on a pitcher. If KW thought it was time for Vazquez to go, then I'm with him 100%.

voodoochile
12-03-2008, 12:11 PM
I trust KW...

DeadMoney
12-03-2008, 12:14 PM
Addition by subtraction.

But as doublem said, need to add another SP.

JohnTucker0814
12-03-2008, 12:17 PM
I don't get the love for the idea that Javy gives us a guaranteed 200 IP... SO WHAT?

I would rather have 2 or 3 pitchers give me that 200 IP with a better chance to win...

All you're getting with Javy is a 200 IP Guaranteed Piece of ****... "if you want me to **** in a box and stamp 200 IP Guaranteed on it... I've got time"

WhiteSox5187
12-03-2008, 12:17 PM
I don't like Vazquez, and I'm glad he's gone. I have faith that KW will find another pitcher that will make our starting rotation better.
I agree, if Opening Day were tomorrow I'd hate it, but since we haven't even had the GM meetings yet, I think more moves are on the way. I think some of our moves of late are to free up payroll space for some free agents (Burnett? Maybe even Sheets? Someone else?) and we now have an abundance of prospects for a trade to acquire a leadoff hitter.

EMachine10
12-03-2008, 12:18 PM
Yes I like it if we're grabbing another proven arm for our rotation (not Bailey), but I'm not sure I like it if we're not adding another arm.

Thome25
12-03-2008, 12:19 PM
Addition by subtraction.

But as doublem said, need to add another SP.

I'm glad we have a GM who has the stones to do what he thinks is right. (and he usually is.) He feels it's time to be aggressive and clean house--and that's exactly what he's doing.

WTS--Anyone else find it odd that with his first two trades this winter, he hasn't exactly been "under the radar"? Both the Swisher and Vazquez trades were highly rumored before they happened. I'm not used to this new "where there's smoke, there's fire" KW.

kobo
12-03-2008, 12:24 PM
I'm glad we have a GM who has the stones to do what he thinks is right. (and he usually is.) He feels it's time to be aggressive and clean house--and that's exactly what he's doing.

WTS--Anyone else find it odd that with his first two trades this winter, he hasn't exactly been "under the radar"? Both the Swisher and Vazquez trades were highly rumored before they happened. I'm not used to this new "where there's smoke, there's fire" KW.
I don't think moving 2 people and clearing close to $15 million off the books for next year is 'cleaning house'. What KW has done with moving Swisher and vazquez is moving pieces of the team that did not come through in the clutch when needed.

Vazquez to the Braves was rumored? Where? Same with Swisher, I don't recall seeing any rumors of Swisher being traded, especially to the Yankees. Both of these moves were under the radar, IMO.

chaotic8512
12-03-2008, 12:28 PM
Other - I am going to miss people spelling his name Vasquez.

JohnTucker0814
12-03-2008, 12:28 PM
I don't think moving 2 people and clearing close to $15 million off the books for next year is 'cleaning house'. What KW has done with moving Swisher and vazquez is moving pieces of the team that did not come through in the clutch when needed.

Vazquez to the Braves was rumored? Where? Same with Swisher, I don't recall seeing any rumors of Swisher being traded, especially to the Yankees. Both of these moves were under the radar, IMO.

Braves were interested in Vazquez in a report on November 26th... a good week ahead of the trade, that's not under the radar for Kenny....

I believe the same for Swisher... reports of Yankee interest was at least a week or two ahead of the trade.

Thome25
12-03-2008, 12:31 PM
I don't think moving 2 people and clearing close to $15 million off the books for next year is 'cleaning house'. What KW has done with moving Swisher and vazquez is moving pieces of the team that did not come through in the clutch when needed.

Vazquez to the Braves was rumored? Where? Same with Swisher, I don't recall seeing any rumors of Swisher being traded, especially to the Yankees. Both of these moves were under the radar, IMO.


Swisher to the Yankees was rumored a week before it happened. I started the thread in what's the score. Vazquez has been rumored to be traded since late October.

KW letting Crede, Uribe, and Cabrera walk via free agency and trading Swisher and Vazquez qualifies as cleaning house. That's 5 major players from 2008 who will be gone with possibly more to come. I'd have to say KW is doing some house cleaning.

chisoxmike
12-03-2008, 12:35 PM
I like that KW is getting rid of some the dead weight on the team - Swisher, Vazquez, Logan.

As others have said, we still need a starter. And a starter not named Jose Contreras or a AAA project.

Marqhead
12-03-2008, 12:41 PM
I'll reserve my opinion until April. As of now I'm hoping it's a lead up to something.

In Kenny we trust.

EndemicSox
12-03-2008, 01:15 PM
The results of this poll are pretty funny...

esbrechtel
12-03-2008, 01:37 PM
If the Sox find another pitcher to replace Javier, then yes.

If not, no.

EDIT: I should note, I believe 100% that the Sox will add another pitcher by Opening Day. If not, I will bitch and moan like a little girl.


Put me in that boat! I'll agree on that!

CWSpalehoseCWS
12-03-2008, 01:46 PM
If the Sox find another pitcher to replace Javier, then yes.

If not, no.

EDIT: I should note, I believe 100% that the Sox will add another pitcher by Opening Day. If not, I will bitch and moan like a little girl.

I agree with you. I think it's a good trade if they can land another starter somewhere.

Thome25
12-03-2008, 01:48 PM
If the Sox find another pitcher to replace Javier, then yes.

If not, no.

EDIT: I should note, I believe 100% that the Sox will add another pitcher by Opening Day. If not, I will bitch and moan like a little girl.

I WOULD NOT count on the Sox acquiring another veteran pitcher via trade or free agency for that matter. Count on Jeff Marquez, Clayton Richard, or a guy like Homer Bailey (if the Sox trade Dye for him.) to compete for the #4 and #5 spots in the rotation.

I just don't see us having the right package to trade for a veteran stud pitcher. I sure as hell don't see us signing one of these pitchers on the free agent market either. It looks like most if not all of the good starters out there are looking for contracts of 5+ years and we all know JR and KW don't operate that way.

I also don't see us signing a big-name free agent because that's not our M.O. We haven't signed any big-name free agents in 12 years and I don't see that changing anytime soon.

soxinem1
12-03-2008, 01:50 PM
I like that KW is getting rid of some the dead weight on the team - Swisher, Vazquez, Logan.

As others have said, we still need a starter. And a starter not named Jose Contreras or a AAA project.


http://www.cbc.ca/gfx/topstory/sports/colon_bartolo0522.jpg

'I'm available..... though I need a new jersey. My old one just doesn't seem to fit anymore... I can give up nearly five runs a game and lose 16 decisions for a fraction of what Javier made...'

ode to veeck
12-03-2008, 01:54 PM
I think the poll says the story, and the two that voted against it must have just been mistakes pushing the wrong button

ode to veeck
12-03-2008, 01:55 PM
the prospects are interesting mix of power and speed and D

palehozenychicty
12-03-2008, 02:01 PM
I don't get the love for the idea that Javy gives us a guaranteed 200 IP... SO WHAT?

I would rather have 2 or 3 pitchers give me that 200 IP with a better chance to win...

All you're getting with Javy is a 200 IP Guaranteed Piece of ****... "if you want me to **** in a box and stamp 200 IP Guaranteed on it... I've got time"


Thank you. I mentioned this earlier in the other thread, why people here will take proven wackness at an exorbitant cost over potential quality at a low cost. If the guy doesn't pan out, then you have other options. Even the proven players don't always pan out. That's life. Winners take smart risks, and I believe this trade is one of them.

NLaloosh
12-03-2008, 02:06 PM
Ala the Swisher trade I think the return was weak.

soltrain21
12-03-2008, 02:12 PM
Ala the Swisher trade I think the return was weak.

Then you are overrating these two players immensely.

doublem23
12-03-2008, 02:15 PM
Thank you. I mentioned this earlier in the other thread, why people here will take proven wackness at an exorbitant cost over potential quality at a low cost. If the guy doesn't pan out, then you have other options. Even the proven players don't always pan out. That's life. Winners take smart risks, and I believe this trade is one of them.

Right now, however, we don't have other options. Not to mention, most of us remember how good that 2003 team was and they were completely torpedoed by their lack of a 5th starter. Right now, we don't have a 4th starter.

I'll take an average starter (which Javy was) over 3-4 prospects "backing each other up" any day od the week.

BainesHOF
12-03-2008, 02:55 PM
I don't get the love for the idea that Javy gives us a guaranteed 200 IP... SO WHAT?

I would rather have 2 or 3 pitchers give me that 200 IP with a better chance to win...

You make far too much sense.

ChiSoxFan81
12-03-2008, 03:18 PM
I'm boycotting this poll until a "it's too early, let's wait and see" option is added.

Ranger
12-03-2008, 03:20 PM
I don't get the love for the idea that Javy gives us a guaranteed 200 IP... SO WHAT?

I would rather have 2 or 3 pitchers give me that 200 IP with a better chance to win...

All you're getting with Javy is a 200 IP Guaranteed Piece of ****... "if you want me to **** in a box and stamp 200 IP Guaranteed on it... I've got time"


Because if it takes you 2 to 3 guys to make up those 200 innings, your pitching staff is in trouble. The reason a 200 inning guy is incredibly valuable is because he helps tremendously in taking pressure off the bullpen in a 162 game season.

Now if you need that one guy in one big game, that's a different story.

Domeshot17
12-03-2008, 03:22 PM
I like the deal, but Javy is a pitcher who saves both your staff and your bullpen.

over the last 8-10 years (forget exactly) only Pedro and Unit have more K's then him, and only Livan has thrown more innings. The guy was a work horse.

Yes, he craps the bed anytime a game means anything, but hes not a bad guy to have for a long season.

JohnTucker0814
12-03-2008, 03:23 PM
Because if it takes you 2 to 3 guys to make up those 200 innings, your pitching staff is in trouble. The reason a 200 inning guy is incredibly valuable is because he helps tremendously in taking pressure off the bullpen in a 162 game season.

Now if you need that one guy in one big game, that's a different story.

How does Javy help your bullpen??? I remember several if not a majority of games he was out by the 6th inning... Yes he ate innings, but don't act like he was a savior for the bullpen.

Domeshot17
12-03-2008, 03:25 PM
How does Javy help your bullpen??? I remember several if not a majority of games he was out by the 6th inning... Yes he ate innings, but don't act like he was a savior for the bullpen.

Over an entire season, Javy is a bullpens best friend

Domeshot17
12-03-2008, 03:27 PM
Also, wish there was another option of whatever. I like the catching prospect we got back but the other 3 are nothing special at all. I asked a friend of mine, huge braves fan, about the deal. He said lillibridge is nothing at all, hes got a good glove, but he is incredibly mediocre offensively and looks like a utility sub at best. The 3b prospect makes Josh Fields look like Brooks Robinson with the glove, and will have to be moved to the OF or 1b ala Kelton from the Cubs (good with the stick, different problems defensively). The reliever has a good arm, but as all relief pitching prospects, no one knows what he can give you until you see him in a few years.

Ranger
12-03-2008, 03:35 PM
How does Javy help your bullpen??? I remember several if not a majority of games he was out by the 6th inning... Yes he ate innings, but don't act like he was a savior for the bullpen.

I didn't say he was a savior. I said he helped the bullpen a great deal by eating those innings. Innings add up over the course of a season and if you have a guy who will take you through the 6th or 7th consistently, it saves your bullpen from being overworked.

Your "several if not a majority" observation is wrong. I think, in your mind, you've magnified the Bad Javy games. 2/3 of his starts he went at least 6 full innings. 4/5 of them he went at least 5.

Vazquez isn't dominant, but he helps the bullpen.

Lip Man 1
12-03-2008, 03:37 PM
I think there should be a 3rd category, "let's wait and see..."

We'll see what if anything Kenny does with these acquisitions and what if any holes are filled by other means.

Till them I don't know if you can say one way or the other.

Lip

jshanahanjr
12-03-2008, 03:38 PM
How much payroll have we dumped this year? I hope we spend some of it, but with the economy maybe the Sox can save it for a rainy day. Can Obama give us some leftover money from his war chest?

EndemicSox
12-03-2008, 03:41 PM
I'm sure it has been posted before, but Flowers hit 12 homers in 75 AB's this fall. Unless the Braves have inside info that he is back on whatever PED he was taking, you've got to love that power potential.

FedEx227
12-03-2008, 03:45 PM
I like it alot, the Central is down so we are still competitive for 09, but we also have a solid core of guys between the Swish and Vaz trades that we can use for years to come.

I like these moves a lot.

FedEx227
12-03-2008, 03:47 PM
Thank you. I mentioned this earlier in the other thread, why people here will take proven wackness at an exorbitant cost over potential quality at a low cost. If the guy doesn't pan out, then you have other options. Even the proven players don't always pan out. That's life. Winners take smart risks, and I believe this trade is one of them.

It's the Livan Herndanez defense. The guy sucks but people still defend him because he eats innings among other things. Great. He eats innings. He also have 4.50+ ERAs most of the time with horrendous WHIPs, but it's cool he pitches a lot of innings.

Give me a guy who can put 6 quality innings over an inning eater anyday.

It's also the you have to have a veteran defense which has never made sense to me. Houston earlier this week just gave $2 million up-front to a guy who hasn't been healthy for any consistent amount of time since 2004, and when he's pitched between then has been pretty sub-par, as opposed to trying out a youngster and seeing what happens.

These moves are solid, very solid, I really like what Kenny has done so far.

Domeshot17
12-03-2008, 03:59 PM
It's the Livan Herndanez defense. The guy sucks but people still defend him because he eats innings among other things. Great. He eats innings. He also have 4.50+ ERAs most of the time with horrendous WHIPs, but it's cool he pitches a lot of innings.

Give me a guy who can put 6 quality innings over an inning eater anyday.

It's also the you have to have a veteran defense which has never made sense to me. Houston earlier this week just gave $2 million up-front to a guy who hasn't been healthy for any consistent amount of time since 2004, and when he's pitched between then has been pretty sub-par, as opposed to trying out a youngster and seeing what happens.

These moves are solid, very solid, I really like what Kenny has done so far.

I don't know if I would call both solid. We had to dump Swisher, but what we gave up to get him was sickening in comparisons to what we got back.

The one thing I don't get it, and I am not saying you said it, but people talk like Javys mid 4 era is terrible, then defend Garlands.

Im not a Javy fan at all, but I hate this idea Javy was (1) as bad as Livan (2) terrible (3) Worse than Garland. Javy overall is a much better SP than Jon Garland, but people couldn't wait to move him, and are praying we resign Garland. 2005 Syndrome I guess.

JohnTucker0814
12-03-2008, 03:59 PM
I didn't say he was a savior. I said he helped the bullpen a great deal by eating those innings. Innings add up over the course of a season and if you have a guy who will take you through the 6th or 7th consistently, it saves your bullpen from being overworked.

Your "several if not a majority" observation is wrong. I think, in your mind, you've magnified the Bad Javy games. 2/3 of his starts he went at least 6 full innings. 4/5 of them he went at least 5.

Vazquez isn't dominant, but he helps the bullpen.

I'll admit, I looked at his game log he went deep more than not... but I see a lot of 7 IP and 6 ER... how many times was that Ozzy leaving him in just because he needed to rest the bullpen, not because Javy was doing good to rest the bullpen... if you know what I mean.

Domeshot17
12-03-2008, 04:02 PM
I'll admit, I looked at his game log he went deep more than not... but I see a lot of 7 IP and 6 ER... how many times was that Ozzy leaving him in just because he needed to rest the bullpen, not because Javy was doing good to rest the bullpen... if you know what I mean.

Thats what an innings eater does. Danks and Floyd, if they had given up 5ER in 2 innings would have to be pulled because they couldn't get it together enough to keep it there or pitch 5 more innings of 1 run ball. I wouldn't take Javy over either of them, but he does his job. He probably deserved to be closer to .500 last year then he was.

FedEx227
12-03-2008, 04:02 PM
I don't know if I would call both solid. We had to dump Swisher, but what we gave up to get him was sickening in comparisons to what we got back.

The one thing I don't get it, and I am not saying you said it, but people talk like Javys mid 4 era is terrible, then defend Garlands.

Im not a Javy fan at all, but I hate this idea Javy was (1) as bad as Livan (2) terrible (3) Worse than Garland. Javy overall is a much better SP than Jon Garland, but people couldn't wait to move him, and are praying we resign Garland. 2005 Syndrome I guess.

I agree. Javy wasn't as bad as people like to think. He's sort of in that A-Rod realm, where he can pitch his ass off for 2 straight weeks, giving us 7-9 innings, 1-3 ER, but then he has his games where he's a complete wreck and it's usually in big games that we need to win.

That's where people find a lot of fault in him is he's very inconsistent. Garland most people know what you're going to get, but I think Javy's thing is more frustration because you know this is a guy who can and typically will pitch his ass off, but when a big game rolls around, or when he hits a wall, he's maddeningly bad.

MrT27
12-03-2008, 06:27 PM
What if your first impression was "lets see how this is in 5 years"?

BadBobbyJenks
12-03-2008, 06:29 PM
I love it unless we enter Spring Training with Richard and Broadway as our 4 and 5.

hawkjt
12-03-2008, 06:40 PM
I will take the wait and see attitude...I do trust Kenny but he might secretly have a drop back and punt plan this year which I know he would never say out loud. I am a fan ,therefore want to win every year.

Javy had a good year in 07...not as good in 08. Seems some fans only remember the last 4-5 starts..he was pretty solid for stretches of the season and was always capable of going out there and being good.

And yes, he did take the ball every 5 days without fail and you need guys like that to save a bullpen.

I hope kenny has more moves on the horizon cus I do not see this starting rotation as good enough to defend the AL Central Title..

WSox597
12-03-2008, 06:46 PM
I'm just glad he's gone. As Lip says, a million dollar arm and a ten-cent head. That says it all right there.

Hopefully, Williams will sign a decent starter to take his place.

MarySwiss
12-03-2008, 07:16 PM
I like that KW is getting rid of some the dead weight on the team - Swisher, Vazquez, Logan.

As others have said, we still need a starter. And a starter not named Jose Contreras or a AAA project.
Mike, I still kind of liked Swisher for some reason, but getting rid of Vazquez and Logan I'm fine with. I've been a serious Vazquez supporter from his days with the D'Backs, but I am sick and tired of writing recaps of games he came up short in. And Logan? Good-bye to the failed Boone Logan experiment.

But we do need to land another starter. In Kenny I Trust.

Frater Perdurabo
12-03-2008, 07:44 PM
I think there should be a 3rd category, "let's wait and see..."

We'll see what if anything Kenny does with these acquisitions and what if any holes are filled by other means.

Till them I don't know if you can say one way or the other.

Lip

Sensible approach. I'm quite "meh" on this deal right now, too.

delben91
12-03-2008, 08:08 PM
Sensible approach. I'm quite "meh" on this deal right now, too.

If it had been Konerko instead of Vazquez, would that change your vote? :cool:

Domeshot17
12-03-2008, 08:13 PM
If it had been Konerko instead of Vazquez, would that change your vote? :cool:

Kenny could trade Konerko for Barry Zito with no cash involved at Frater would be the happiest Sox fan alive.

Frater Perdurabo
12-03-2008, 08:22 PM
Kenny could trade Konerko for Barry Zito with no cash involved at Frater would be the happiest Sox fan alive.

No way that happens. The Giants would be getting fleeced on that deal. :tongue:

Rockabilly
12-03-2008, 08:42 PM
after watching Javy pitched the last month of the season, I would have been happy with a bag of balls for him...

I am so glad that he is finished with the Sox

guillensdisciple
12-03-2008, 08:47 PM
On 670 the score, at aroun 730 they were talking about the trade and I was shocked by the people that were complaining about the trade. Something about him being a consisten innings eater and 200 k guy.

Other then ocassionaly saving our bullpen how does he benefit us? I am pretty sure we can find a Rookie or veteran in his spot to fill the void.

Javy was a dead end when we needed him most, that is unacceptable, no matter how big of a role you play for any team.

Good riddance, and for the haul in return, I am loving it even more. I still believe Lillibridge will have an affect on the Sox very soon, he had one bad year, prior to that he was very good. The White Sox need a lead- off hitter who can get on base and steal, this guy showed that he could do that in the minors, that is why Kenny gave him a chance.

If there is potential there, it will pan out.

Lundind1
12-03-2008, 08:55 PM
This move is a step in the right direction for the club regardless of value for talent. The value for talent argument that has been brought up to me is unfounded because even if one of these players comes to the bigs and produces anything it will be even for me. This is just the another step in the Bell plan to rebuild the Sox from within.

champagne030
12-03-2008, 09:30 PM
after watching Javy pitched the last month of the season, I would have been happy with a bag of balls for him...

I am so glad that he is finished with the Sox

I don't mind he's gone either and am happy we received Flowers and a bag of balls for him, but now who's going to fill the 4th and 5th starter spots? Nobody in our organization can reproduce his numbers in 2009. Significant moves need to be made or we'll sorely miss Javy this year.

PeoriaSoxFan
12-03-2008, 09:35 PM
I too am of the opinion that we have to wait and see what happens next. I think KW is planning something big; that's how he rolls. But, could the economy be impacting this in regards to payroll? Does anyone know if season ticket preorders are down? With the economy, I would think it would be reasonable to assume attendance drops across the league.

On the personnel side, I also think another starter is in order, but I thought that last year as well and look what Danks & Floyd did. I want to see a true center fielder added as well; one that can hit as well. I am sick of that revolving door. The leadoff position also needs addressed. With that said, I think Kenny is far from done.

Per the ESPN list, Rocco Baldelli is a free agent. I know his history, but would he be worth a shot, if a reasonable short-term contract could be put in place? I also see Sox killer Willie Bloomquist is out there.

PaleHoser
12-03-2008, 09:49 PM
This is Chicago, so can I vote "yes" more than once?

pczarapa
12-03-2008, 10:06 PM
Count me as one of the WSIers who likes this trade. When got rid of a pitcher who's psyche was as tough as marshmallow and who also crapped his pants when the games really meant something.

We got back some young ballplayers who look to have alot of potential. Tyler Flowers looks like a pretty good young power hitter in the making.

This also frees up some money to possibly use on some other players though I'm not counting on it.

So what do you think of the trade yay or nay? THANKS for posting.:D:

And we likely got rid of Boone Logan, nice!

35th and Shields
12-03-2008, 10:23 PM
I don't mind he's gone either and am happy we received Flowers and a bag of balls for him, but now who's going to fill the 4th and 5th starter spots? Nobody in our organization can reproduce his numbers in 2009. Significant moves need to be made or we'll sorely miss Javy this year.

I feel the same way. If I didn't hear all this talk about about the sox cutting payroll and getting younger I'd be a lot more comfortable with this deal. I'm in favor of having some talented, young players on the field but when it comes to the rotation you can't go into the season with 2 complete question marks and expect win a championship, and thats assuming Danks and Floyd produce as they did last year.

I'm a big believer in KW and have to believe he's going to change the roster quite a bit by getting another starter but if you're asking me if I like the trade right now the answer is no.

Konerko05
12-04-2008, 04:56 AM
Williams for the last couple years is basically turning over the entire lineup. These aren't just moves for 2009. These moves are necessary for the future of the organization.

2008 Lineup- Swisher, Cabrera, Thome, Konerko, Dye, AJ, Quentin, Crede, Uribe.

The only players expected to be in the lineup by 2010 were AJ, Quentin, and Swisher. Quentin and Swisher (along with Ramirez) were acquired before the season at the beginning of the retooling process. Obviously Swisher didn't work as planned.

Cabrera was acquired as a stopgap for another strong push with the currect core. It shows Williams is still trying to win during the retooling process.

To expect Williams to replace 6 or 7 positions with high priced veterans is ridiculous. Williams is adding much needed depth to the organization. I do expect Williams to open the bank for some positions, but only the positions the young core isn't able to succeed at.

Here is how the offensive depth chart looks so far for the future. Some players are overlapping.

1B/DH- Viciedo, Allen, Flowers
2B- Getz, Ramirez, Lillibridge, Nix, Beckham
SS- Ramirez, Lillibridge, Beckham
3B- Fields, Betemit, Viciedo, Gilmore (A project, but recent acquisition)
LF- Quentin
CF- Anderson, Owens, Danks, Shelby
RF- Viciedo

Williams has also begun turning over the pitching staff with Danks, Floyd, Poreda, etc..

Obviously the outfield and pitching need more depth. These will be Williams' next two targets.

The World Series definitely took a toll on the depth of the organization. It put the organization in a win now mode. I don't think anyone will complain about winning the World Series. Now Williams has a difficult task of keeping the team competitive during this retooling process.

I am definitely intrigued at what moves Kenny will make next.

(My last post was a lot better, but I timed out, and lost the entire post.)

jabrch
12-04-2008, 06:45 AM
Williams for the last couple years is basically turning over the entire lineup. These aren't just moves for 2009. These moves are necessary for the future of the organization.

2008 Lineup- Swisher, Cabrera, Thome, Konerko, Dye, AJ, Quentin, Crede, Uribe.

The only players expected to be in the lineup by 2010 were AJ, Quentin, and Swisher. Quentin and Swisher (along with Ramirez) were acquired before the season at the beginning of the retooling process. Obviously Swisher didn't work as planned.

Cabrera was acquired as a stopgap for another strong push with the currect core. It shows Williams is still trying to win during the retooling process.

To expect Williams to replace 6 or 7 positions with high priced veterans is ridiculous. Williams is adding much needed depth to the organization. I do expect Williams to open the bank for some positions, but only the positions the young core isn't able to succeed at.

Here is how the offensive depth chart looks so far for the future. Some players are overlapping.

1B/DH- Viciedo, Allen, Flowers
2B- Getz, Ramirez, Lillibridge, Nix, Beckham
SS- Ramirez, Lillibridge, Beckham
3B- Fields, Betemit, Viciedo, Gilmore (A project, but recent acquisition)
LF- Quentin
CF- Anderson, Owens, Danks, Shelby
RF- Viciedo

Williams has also begun turning over the pitching staff with Danks, Floyd, Poreda, etc..

Obviously the outfield and pitching need more depth. These will be Williams' next two targets.

The World Series definitely took a toll on the depth of the organization. It put the organization in a win now mode. I don't think anyone will complain about winning the World Series. Now Williams has a difficult task of keeping the team competitive during this retooling process.

I am definitely intrigued at what moves Kenny will make next.

(My last post was a lot better, but I timed out, and lost the entire post.)


Good post. The future is bright - and I'm waiting until we know for sure what the present looks like before I pass judgement.

Paulwny
12-04-2008, 11:18 AM
I'm just glad he's gone. As Lip says, a million dollar arm and a ten-cent head. That says it all right there.

Hopefully, Williams will sign a decent starter to take his place.


Vazquez, a Cy Young pitcher with a .500 team, a .500 pitcher with a pennant contender.

Lip Man 1
12-04-2008, 11:24 AM
Konerko:

You may be right. Let's rephrase that, you better be right...

But this organization doesn't have the greatest track record when it comes to these things remember (and that's not a slam at anyone just stating a fact....)

I recall for example this quote by JR to the Chicago Tribune:

"Now we’ve added a half dozen talented young players. Two or three have a chance of being stars, according to our scouts. . . . If they're half right, we're in great shape."

It turned out only one (two at best) even made any type of impact with the Sox. Again that's not ripping anybody, just factual.

Youngsters, reclamation projects and the like are all crapshoots....you just don't know.

Again hopefully there's more to this story before the Sox open camp in Glendale.

We'll see.

Lip

soxinem1
12-04-2008, 12:18 PM
Over an entire season, Javy is a bullpens best friend

To the contrary. All he does is add to their inheirited runners scored average per game to increase...

WhiteSoxFan84
12-04-2008, 10:38 PM
Williams has also begun turning over the pitching staff with Danks, Floyd, Poreda, etc..

i think he's almost DONE turning over the rotation.
jon garland, freddy garcia, orlando hernandez, javier vazquez, and after next season, jose contreras will all be veteran starting pitchers we had as recent as 3 seasons ago (el duque was 4 seasons ago).

buehrle is the only guy still around that was on our major league roster before 2008. it wouldnt be a stretch to assume that the following will be our rotation in 2009: buehrle, floyd, danks, bailey, poreda/richard. id rather it be: buehrle, floyd, danks, bailey, and sheets/burnett/sabathia/lowe lol

jabrch
12-05-2008, 09:05 AM
It turned out only one (two at best) even made any type of impact with the Sox. Again that's not ripping anybody, just factual.

I'm not sure how you can say that. First off, have any of those young guys been written off yet? Second, we had MANY young guys make MAJOR contributions last year. Am I misunderstanding you?

Youngsters, reclamation projects and the like are all crapshoots....you just don't know.

So are many vets. You can't easily project anything in baseball. The difference is you can project what a vet is going to cost you. Teams need balance of vets and young kids. The key is to have Vets who's production is both consistently predictable, and irreplaceable at a lower cost.

Again hopefully there's more to this story before the Sox open camp in Glendale.

What do you think? Do you really believe KW is done? You've watched him long enough to know the answer to that question.

Lip Man 1
12-05-2008, 11:15 AM
Jab:

I think he's not done but I'm not 100% sure.

I never thought I'd live to see the White Flag Trade or a threat to move the franchise either but they happened... so who's to say this couldn't be it?

We'll see.

Lip

ode to veeck
12-05-2008, 12:10 PM
This is Chicago, so can I vote "yes" more than once?

no its not; it's cyberspace and no you can't unless you're a mod
regular WSI folks get one vote a piece and mods get bazillions if they want them
any more questions?