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View Full Version : Vazquez to Braves II


voodoochile
12-03-2008, 12:32 AM
So far it looks like:

Vazquez and Logan

for

Tyler Flowers, Brent Lillibridge and two more low level prospects

Link to the first 500 Posts:

http://www.whitesoxinteractive.com/vbulletin/showthread.php?t=107964

champagne030
12-03-2008, 12:36 AM
Are you serious? He has a soft body -- he's not fat. It's pretty accepted around baseball Montero will be a 1B. Tell me, how many times have you seen Flowers?

I saw him about 3 weeks ago and the Reds scout next to me said he'll never see a game behind the plate in MLB.

Lundind1
12-03-2008, 12:37 AM
I haven't got the slightest idea. It's unlikely, but I'm still hopeful for Murphy. We have to have a legit 3B, otherwise Owens will be so much more of a liability. A Fields/Betemit platoon is a possibility as well.

I think that Fields will be a huge factor in the field either as a starter or as trade bait for the Sox in the near future, using my magic white sox crystal ball I got for Christmas last year...patent pending. One of the major factors for his performance in 2008 or the lackthereof, IMO, was that he was battling injuries to the knee for most of the season. He had 3 starts and stops in Charlotte last year and no player can provide the high numbers he did in 2007 when you have no rhythm.

Mr. White Sox
12-03-2008, 12:39 AM
I think this is a decent trade. Kenny will probably try to unload Dye for a #3 or #4 starter, and will sign an old vet to compete with Broadway/Richard for the #5 spot. Once the Dye situation is complete, we can finally get a good picture of where this team stands.

There's a spot in this link about Tyler Flowers, just use your find feature:

http://www.baseballamerica.com/today/prospects/ask-ba/2008/267236.html

munchman33
12-03-2008, 12:39 AM
Reading a lot of posts, there's a lot of rebuilding talk. Why, because we're losing payroll from two trades? Did anyone bother to see who we lost? Swisher and Vazquez were pretty damn close to sunken costs last year. As far as I'm concerned, it's enough that they're not on the team anymore. I'd rather the team pocketed that money than send those two clowns and their big paychecks out on the field to help us lose games.

voodoochile
12-03-2008, 12:40 AM
I think this is a decent trade. Kenny will probably try to unload Dye for a #3 or #4 starter, and will sign an old vet to compete with Broadway/Richard for the #5 spot. Once the Dye situation is complete, we can finally get a good picture of where this team stands.

With who playing RF?

Craig Grebeck
12-03-2008, 12:40 AM
I saw him about 3 weeks ago and the Reds scout next to me said he'll never see a game behind the plate in MLB.
That's fantastic. Now how is he a fat ****ing tub of goo?

Also, don't listen to everything scouts say. Perhaps he won't spend any time back there -- but his bat will play anywhere.

munchman33
12-03-2008, 12:41 AM
With who playing RF?

I vote Quentin. There's lots of free agent LF's who won't be getting near what they expected in the open market.

btrain929
12-03-2008, 12:42 AM
With who playing RF?

1) Viciedo, if he rakes in S.T, but probably not.
2) He might be able to find a bargain basement corner OF'er out there.
3) Or go after Abreu if it's true he won't get as much as previously believed.

voodoochile
12-03-2008, 12:42 AM
I vote Quentin. There's lots of free agent LF's who won't be getting near what they expected in the open market.

I'd rather keep Dye. In fact I'd like to sign him to an extension.

Craig Grebeck
12-03-2008, 12:42 AM
Reading a lot of posts, there's a lot of rebuilding talk. Why, because we're losing payroll from two trades? Did anyone bother to see who we lost? Swisher and Vazquez were pretty damn close to sunken costs last year. As far as I'm concerned, it's enough that they're not on the team anymore. I'd rather the team pocketed that money than send those two clowns and their big paychecks out on the field to help us lose games.
Well, I agree to a point -- although you and I obviously take different routes to our collective conclusions. All in all, I'd rather keep Swisher and trade Dye, as nothing netted in the Swisher trade is going to be of use for us. At least in losing Dye we add value to the team in his return and improve the team by shifting Swish to RF. Of course, now we're ****ed in that we can't trade Dye without creating another hole.

Craig Grebeck
12-03-2008, 12:42 AM
I'd rather keep Dye. In fact I'd like to sign him to an extension.
Five thumbs down.

Whitesox029
12-03-2008, 12:44 AM
I vote Quentin. There's lots of free agent LF's who won't be getting near what they expected in the open market.
It's definitely an option, but I see Quentin as a bit of a defensive liability in right as opposed to left, since his arm is pretty much average. I'm a firm believer that defense can win you some games, so I'd always like to have someone with a good arm in right.

munchman33
12-03-2008, 12:45 AM
I'd rather keep Dye. In fact I'd like to sign him to an extension.

I could see keeping Dye...but give him an extension? We've got an option on him in 2010. Why would we do that? It isn't even a given he'll hold up until that extension.

Dye's value is only going to go down from here. If we're going to trade him, it has to be now. You wouldn't trade Jermaine for another young starter, and then turn around and give a 2-3 year deal to, for instance, an Adam Dunn?

A. Cavatica
12-03-2008, 12:45 AM
It's definitely an option, but I see Quentin as a bit of a defensive liability in right as opposed to left, since his arm is pretty much average. I'm a firm believer that defense can win you some games, so I'd always like to have someone with a good arm in right.

We could've asked Atlanta to throw in Joe Borchard...

munchman33
12-03-2008, 12:46 AM
Well, I agree to a point -- although you and I obviously take different routes to our collective conclusions. All in all, I'd rather keep Swisher and trade Dye, as nothing netted in the Swisher trade is going to be of use for us. At least in losing Dye we add value to the team in his return and improve the team by shifting Swish to RF. Of course, now we're ****ed in that we can't trade Dye without creating another hole.

I don't think Kenny trusted that Swisher could adequately replace Dye's production (or at least come close).

Craig Grebeck
12-03-2008, 12:46 AM
I could see keeping Dye...but give him an extension? We've got an option on him in 2010. Why would we do that? It isn't even a given he'll hold up until that extension.

Dye's value is only going to go down from here. If we're going to trade him, it has to be now. You wouldn't trade Jermaine for another young starter, and then turn around and give a 2-3 year deal to, for instance, an Adam Dunn?
An extension is a terrible idea. Honestly, how lucky have we been to have Dye's production in 2005-2008? Hell, one could argue we're pushing our luck expecting another above average season in 2009. Having him on the team in 2010 is not a good idea -- let alone 2-3 seasons after that.

Craig Grebeck
12-03-2008, 12:47 AM
I don't think Kenny trusted that Swisher could adequately replace Dye's production (or at least come close).
When you consider the defensive upgrade, and the bounce-back factor with Swisher, it's closer than you think.

Of course, the overall value of the team would be bolstered by a good return for Dye -- as we sold Swisher for ****.

But that's neither here nor there, I'm pretty happy with this Vazquez trade -- though I'm worried they view Lillibridge as a full time guy, which is a mistake. He's a utility guy.

LoveYourSuit
12-03-2008, 12:48 AM
Reading a lot of posts, there's a lot of rebuilding talk. Why, because we're losing payroll from two trades? Did anyone bother to see who we lost? Swisher and Vazquez were pretty damn close to sunken costs last year. As far as I'm concerned, it's enough that they're not on the team anymore. I'd rather the team pocketed that money than send those two clowns and their big paychecks out on the field to help us lose games.


We agree there.

I rather the Sox pocket the money too rather than paying for crap.

Problem is, these salary moves do not go too well for the casual fan and consumers of this team.

From my part, I dont't care if they cut payroll 20%-30% as long as the team performs well. I also would not mind a 20%-30% break on my season ticket invoice too :gulp:

munchman33
12-03-2008, 12:48 AM
An extension is a terrible idea. Honestly, how lucky have we been to have Dye's production in 2005-2008? Hell, one could argue we're pushing our luck expecting another above average season in 2009. Having him on the team in 2010 is not a good idea -- let alone 2-3 seasons after that.

Granted, I didn't think he'd hold up last year, and I was pleasantly surprised. :smile:

But his defense is getting worse. He simply isn't a right fielder anymore.

Mr. White Sox
12-03-2008, 12:51 AM
Granted, I didn't think he'd hold up last year, and I was pleasantly surprised. :smile:

But his defense is getting worse. He simply isn't a right fielder anymore.

I agree. Showing that "GOLD GLOVE" icon during baseball games when they outline the defense may look pretty, but it's 9 years old now, and I'd say he's lost a half-step per year. Factor in his considerable injury history, and if you're ever going to trade him, the time is now.

TDog
12-03-2008, 12:51 AM
I don't know enough about the deal, or moves to come in the coming months, to be excited.

However, from reports I've read, it appears Flowers isn't close to the majors as a catcher. I haven't seen him play, but I've read that he needs a lot of work defensively, and that disappoints me. A catcher who needs a lot of work defensively isn't a catcher. Maybe he's a first baseman. You're better off with a slick defensive catcher who can't hit.

munchman33
12-03-2008, 12:54 AM
We agree there.

I rather the Sox pocket the money too rather than paying for crap.

Problem is, these salary moves do not go too well for the casual fan and consumers of this team.

From my part, I dont't care if they cut payroll 20%-30% as long as the team performs well. I also would not mind a 20%-30% break on my season ticket invoice too :gulp:

I think what most casual fans don't realize is high payrolls are only necessary when teams are inadequate at recognizing talent and then producing productive young players. High payrolls are meaningless, as it's just as easy to spend poorly as it is to evaluate and develop youngsters poorly.

Lundind1
12-03-2008, 12:55 AM
I agree. Showing that "GOLD GLOVE" icon during baseball games when they outline the defense may look pretty, but it's 9 years old now, and I'd say he's lost a half-step per year. Factor in his considerable injury history, and if you're ever going to trade him, the time is now.

That may still happen in the next two weeks. I don't think that KW is done yet.

russ99
12-03-2008, 12:56 AM
Reading a lot of posts, there's a lot of rebuilding talk. Why, because we're losing payroll from two trades? Did anyone bother to see who we lost? Swisher and Vazquez were pretty damn close to sunken costs last year. As far as I'm concerned, it's enough that they're not on the team anymore. I'd rather the team pocketed that money than send those two clowns and their big paychecks out on the field to help us lose games.

That's one side of the argument, the other side is what did we get back for those guys? And these are players leaving the Sox who despite poor seasons were still established major league veterans with good track records. It's easy to bash Javy after his awful September, but we're going to miss those 200+ innings and Ks.

None of the players returned in those deals filled any of the large holes on the roster, and it's even sketchy if any of these prospects (and in Betemit's case a former top prospect who hasn't panned out) can help us contend in 2009.

I hold out final judgement until we break camp in February, but the other shoe has to got to drop at some point... I'm still giving Kenny the benefit of the doubt, but he's really pushing my faith in him. Having a major league player added to the team soon would restore some of my faith in KW and in even a decent season in 2009.

Lundind1
12-03-2008, 12:58 AM
I think what most casual fans don't realize is high payrolls are only necessary when teams are inadequate at recognizing talent and then producing productive young players. High payrolls are meaningless, as it's just as easy to spend poorly as it is to evaluate and develop youngsters poorly.

Case and point: The New York Yankees in the last almost 6 years. They have done nothing but win division title after division title. And then POOF....nodda in the Playoffs. High payroll just means that you have a better chance of winning a WS, it guarantees you nothing. That is why they play the games, it make me enjoy the surprises more...ie Tampa this year.

btrain929
12-03-2008, 01:00 AM
I don't know enough about the deal, or moves to come in the coming months, to be excited.

However, from reports I've read, it appears Flowers isn't close to the majors as a catcher. I haven't seen him play, but I've read that he needs a lot of work defensively, and that disappoints me. A catcher who needs a lot of work defensively isn't a catcher. Maybe he's a first baseman. You're better off with a slick defensive catcher who can't hit.

Eww. Maybe MAYBE as a backup catcher. But not for your starting catcher.

Whether he sticks at catcher or not, he is dangerous with the bat. And considering the bats were going to be losing over the next year or 2, getting young quality ones now is a good thing.

Lundind1
12-03-2008, 01:00 AM
None of the players returned in those deals filled any of the large holes on the roster, and it's even sketchy if any of these prospects (and in Betemit's case a former top prospect who hasn't panned out) can help us contend in 2009.


I know that it may not seem like they fill anything right now, but if you take a more long term view of the team, it may help fill some needs in the next two or three years. It will give us the depth to go a whole 162 game season and be ready and rested for a playoff run.

raven1
12-03-2008, 01:01 AM
We'll really have to judge this deal by what, if anything, happens next.

Replacing Javy's 200+ innings and 200 K's a year is not a trivial matter. It's one thing to expect the unproven Richards/Broadway/Poreda/etc. combination to fill one rotation hole, but 2 is pushing it (we got very lucky last year with Danks & Floyd).

To me this looks like a straight salary dump - I'm underwhelmed by what the Sox got in return. Part 2 of this move may bring in another reliable #4 starter, but at the likely cost of opening up yet another hole in the starting lineup. I would be especially wary if Dye is the player moved - he is better than anything available on the market at that salary, and I'm ok with Anderson/Owens filling the center field position but not with relying on both to finally reach their "potential" (3 years later than expected).

btrain929
12-03-2008, 01:01 AM
That's one side of the argument, the other side is what did we get back for those guys? And these are players leaving the Sox who despite poor seasons were still established major league veterans with good track records. It's easy to bash Javy after his awful September, but we're going to miss those 200+ innings and Ks.

None of the players returned in those deals filled any of the large holes on the roster, and it's even sketchy if any of these prospects (and in Betemit's case a former top prospect who hasn't panned out) can help us contend in 2009.

I hold out final judgement until we break camp in February, but the other shoe has to got to drop at some point... I'm still giving Kenny the benefit of the doubt, but he's really pushing my faith in him. Having a major league player added to the team soon would restore some of my faith in KW and in even a decent season in 2009.

Well I guess he better get to work then!!! :rolleyes:

UofCSoxFan
12-03-2008, 01:04 AM
Not knowing a ton about the players, but knowing who we gave up (a loogy with talent but no head who really would never be a factor in Chicago, and a small game pitcher that's best asset was his ability to eat innings) and reading the Tribune review of the trade I think this was a great deal. Flowers put up some monster stats in the AFL (12 bombs in 20 games) and is a top catching prospect. Altough he's likely a couple years away, he should be ready to go about the same time AJ starts tapering off from being able to catch full time. The 2B/SS we got has some speed and frankly between Getz, Him, and Bettimet we should be able to find a serviceable player there until Beckham is ready. Gilmore is a former supplemental draft pick with a ton of potential, and Rodriguez is a young pitcher with a lot of potential as well. At the same time we free up a ton of dead money. Honestly if two of these 4 guys pan out, this wil be a steal of a trade. Yes that's a big if but not that unrealistic.

Again I think Kenny is one of the best GMs in baseball. Our team is shaping up to be pretty damn good 2, 3 years from now IMO (which is remarkable looking how depleted our minors were for awhile) and I still think we will be in the hunt this year. That's all you can ask.

russ99
12-03-2008, 01:05 AM
Well I guess he better get to work then!!! :rolleyes:

OK, that's a bit ridiculous, :redface: but it's almost as if the steal of Carlos has given him a blank check with the fans. I get it, but I'm still real nervous as to how it will all shake out.

DoItForDanPasqua
12-03-2008, 01:06 AM
That's one side of the argument, the other side is what did we get back for those guys? And these are players leaving the Sox who despite poor seasons were still established major league veterans with good track records.

None of the players returned in those deals filled any of the large holes on the roster, and it's even sketchy if any of these prospects (and in Betemit's case a former top prospect who hasn't panned out) can help us contend in 2009.

I hold out final judgement until we break camp in February, but the other shoe has to got to drop at some point... I'm still giving Kenny the benefit of the doubt, but he's really pushing my faith in him. Having a major league player added to the team soon would restore some of my faith in KW and in even a decent season in 2009.

Vazquez doesn't have enough value to get an established big leaguer to fill any holes the Sox have. I like this trade because it dumps a pitcher who has nothing to offer the Sox and his salary in exchange for some promising minor league talent. That's the best you can get for Javy. Now the Sox have to start shopping for a fourth starter, but they would have to do that with or without this trade. Vazquez has a record of success in the National League and I hope it continues, but it clearly didn't work out with the Sox.

champagne030
12-03-2008, 01:07 AM
That's fantastic. Now how is he a fat ****ing tub of goo?

Also, don't listen to everything scouts say. Perhaps he won't spend any time back there -- but his bat will play anywhere.

He's fat. Soft, pudgy, overweight, or thin challenged, whatever. He's way too heavy now.

And his bat won't play "anywhere". Maybe, MAYBE 1B, but more likely DH.

Hey, if he turns out to be a legit hitter, no matter the position, then it's a good deal as long as we spend the savings on another SP that can produce Javy's #'s.

munchman33
12-03-2008, 01:07 AM
That's one side of the argument, the other side is what did we get back for those guys? And these are players leaving the Sox who despite poor seasons were still established major league veterans with good track records.

None of the players returned in those deals filled any of the large holes on the roster, and it's even sketchy if any of these prospects can help us contend in 2009.

I hold out final judgement until we break camp in February, but the other shoe has to got to drop at some point... I'm still giving Kenny the benefit of the doubt, but he's really pushing my faith in him. We need a major league player added to the team pretty soon.

I'd rather have talented young players than old players with "track records" that are breaking down, collapsing under the pressure, or any combination of the two.

Kenny has picked up two utility guys (Betemit for 1B/3B/LF and Lillibridge for 2B/SS). He's picked up a guy in Marquez that will battle Poreda and Richard for the 5th starter role (always a good idea). He picked up Jason Nix to compete with Chris Getz, instead of just handing the youngster the job. He picked up a Cuban with tons of potential to battle Fields in spring training for the 3B job (and let's face it, he probably expects him to win it, given the major league deal he signed him to).

So, really Kenny's only down a CF and a SP. He'll have to trade for a CF (Taveras is really the only guy out there on the market) or pickup another young guy to battle BA (that's really the only option out there). He'll likely trade Dye for a young starter to fill the #4 role (probably a Homer Bailey type). Replacing Dye this offseason will be easy, there's more LF on the market than there are teams needing one (Quentin's at least as good as Dye in RF defensively).

If things keep working out with what the media leaks out as KW's plan, this might be his best offseason since the one heading into 2005...

SoxFan88
12-03-2008, 01:07 AM
None of the players returned in those deals filled any of the large holes on the roster, and it's even sketchy if any of these prospects (and in Betemit's case a former top prospect who hasn't panned out) can help us contend in 2009.


It may take a few years for these players to really contribute but I don't think Vazquez or Swish were going to lead us to a WS in 09.... these moves build up our farm while freeing up money to pursue free agents.... Dye has done a lot for this team but I'm hoping he is next in line

UofCSoxFan
12-03-2008, 01:11 AM
I think what most casual fans don't realize is high payrolls are only necessary when teams are inadequate at recognizing talent and then producing productive young players. High payrolls are meaningless, as it's just as easy to spend poorly as it is to evaluate and develop youngsters poorly.

Damn true. What a high pay roll does is it gives you more margin for error if you misstep and the chance to take chances on some prospects, since you can fall back to free agency to fill voids, but it certainly doesn't guarantee championships. Teams like the Twins, Marlins (when they actually try to have a competitve team) A's, Rays, all have exceptional scouting. If they botch a pick it hurts them a lot more than say the Yankees, but a good player making 300K is just as good on the field as the same player making 9 million.

Craig Grebeck
12-03-2008, 01:11 AM
He's fat. Soft, pudgy, overweight, or thin challenged, whatever. He's way too heavy now.

And his bat won't play "anywhere". Maybe, MAYBE 1B, but more likely DH.

Hey, if he turns out to be a legit hitter, no matter the position, then it's a good deal as long as we spend the savings on another SP that can produce Javy's #'s.
http://vimeo.com/2172277

Doesn't look fat to me, at all.

jabrch
12-03-2008, 01:12 AM
I'd rather have proven, successful players that can win over "maybe's"...we'll simply have to disagree.



If we traded Buehrle, you could legitimately make this arguement. We didn't. You can't. This is a major reach Lip. I don't buy it.

Regarding your "last day" comment, big difference last I saw between the Chicago market and the Twin City one. But that's just me. Minnesota has to go with kids, they have no option with their ownership mentality, Chicago does.


This has nothing to do with the "owners mentality" which is LipCode for JR is Cheap. I'm surprised you still try and sell that crap. So few are buying it. This has everything to do with the GMs strategy that he has acted on many times. He maximized Javy's value, and believes he is maximizing the use of his payroll. He will unload 2/23mm get a few solid prospects, and put a 5th starter in to replace Javy who has a chance of being as good as Javy this year. I wish Javy worked out better - I like him as a pitcher - but KW made the move he feels puts the team in the best position both short term and long term.

Last point, "rebuilding" is what it'll be called when those prospects don't pan out or don't contribute anything until 2012.

You can call it whatever you want. You are wrong. This is not rebuilding and you should be saavy enough to know it - unless you feel that label is sufficiently negative for your anti-management campagin.

What about now, RIGHT NOW... this season,

We are a contender. There is no reason to believe we won't be in the race all season.

not three years away.

A good GM can manage both at the same time.

I came into this off season thinking based on what I was told by some in the media and some in MLB, that the Sox were targeting Figgins and Hudson. THAT solves issues...

First off, I don't like either of those two guys. Not for what they will cost in salary or in prospects. Second, What's to say we won't get them? Third, I know you are well connected Lip, but that information that you were provided by your people is public information. I'm assuming it is true at some level. I'm also not sure that Williams is going to telegraph his every move anymore after last offseason. In any case, it is a bit (way too) early to conclude that KW won't solve issues. (and by the way, we don't have that many issues to solve - this team did, after all, make the playoffs.

forgive me for wondering if such players as Nix (released) and a 19 year old is going to do the same thing.

so those are the only additions to this club on opening day? Thanks for the 411. I'll stop paying attention.

Again in the coming weeks...

EXACTLY. You are concluding that this is rebuilding (again - that's LipCode for JR is Cheap) without even partial information.

We both agree on one thing, Vazquez did not have the mentality (as Dan Pleasac pointed out today) to win "big" games in September BUT he still gave you 200+ innings and at this point again forgive me if I wonder if Richard (and his 5 plus ERA) or Poreda or whomever else the Sox got from the Yankees will do the same.

I'll miss Javy's 200 solid innings. But you can't conclude it is rebuilding until you know who will be here, and you certainly can't conclude this is more of the "owners mentality" (Lip Code for Cheap) based on a move like this. Well - you can - but it is fairly transparent to those who know your agenda.

jabrch
12-03-2008, 01:15 AM
Eww. Maybe MAYBE as a backup catcher. But not for your starting catcher.

Whether he sticks at catcher or not, he is dangerous with the bat. And considering the bats were going to be losing over the next year or 2, getting young quality ones now is a good thing.

He just finished a season in high A ball. He's not ready for MLB at any level.

btrain929
12-03-2008, 01:15 AM
http://vimeo.com/2172277

Doesn't look fat to me, at all.

(The provider for said video didn't know Tyler's name, sadly, and put Cole.)

Sadly, you're mistaken. C'mon CG, you're better than that. Cole IS his first name. He goes by Tyler which I'm assuming is his middle name.

http://mlb.mlb.com/team/player.jsp?player_id=452095

btrain929
12-03-2008, 01:16 AM
He just finished a season in high A ball. He's not ready for MLB at any level.

Never said he was. He does have a quality bat, and is young. Those were the main points of my post. When I think of guys who were supposed to be "defense-oriented" at the catcher position with no stick like you mentioned, I think of Chris Widger and Chris Stewart, and throw up in my mouth a lil.

Craig Grebeck
12-03-2008, 01:18 AM
Sadly, you're mistaken. C'mon CG, you're better than that. Cole IS his first name. He goes by Tyler which I'm assuming is his middle name.

http://mlb.mlb.com/team/player.jsp?player_id=452095
Whoops! My bad. I just assumed there was a mix-up. Damn.

btrain929
12-03-2008, 01:20 AM
Whoops! My bad. I just assumed there was a mix-up. Damn.

I agree it would have been damn odd if that wasn't his first name and "Cole" was the first thing that popped in his head....

Craig Grebeck
12-03-2008, 01:20 AM
Never said he was. He does have a quality bat, and is young. Those were the main points of my post. When I think of guys who were supposed to be "defense-oriented" at the catcher position with no stick like you mentioned, I think of Chris Widger and Chris Stewart, and throw up in my mouth a lil.
I'm certainly not going to complain if Flowers can't stick at C and becomes Paul Konerko.*

*I'm obviously aware this is quite optimistic.

UofCSoxFan
12-03-2008, 01:22 AM
Javy's ERA in August, September, and October was abysmal. Going into last year, I was not exatcly thirlled with going into last year with Danks and Floyd as our 4th and 5th starters and TCQ, Jerry Ownes or BA as our third outfielder. That worked out OK. Kenny will find another arm that likely won't eat as manny innings as Javy but certainly will be more effective than Javy was down the stretch last year (not saying mutch). Stud catching prospects are very valuable and this guy is a top prospect. We got another middle IF to compete with Nix and Getz for a spot this year and between the 3 we should be fine. We then got two very young high potential guys. For a pitcher with a ton of innings on his arm that is on the wrong side of 30 and has proven he can't win the big game (both in NY and AZ in additon to here) is grand theft. Sure all of these prospects may be duds. But I think the liklihood that we got at least two future major leaguers here is pretty substantial.

btrain929
12-03-2008, 01:25 AM
I'm certainly not going to complain if Flowers can't stick at C and becomes Paul Konerko.*

*I'm obviously aware this is quite optimistic.

Agreed. And, again, we all are aware that he's not stepping into a MLB role tomorrow. He still can try to improve at the C position the next year or 2 to see if he can become "average" defensively. It's not a lost cause or impossible to tone up and improve as a defensive catcher.

WhiteSoxFan84
12-03-2008, 01:36 AM
This kind of feels like the Carlos Lee for Scott Podsednik deal in that another move will follow this deal because of the money freed up, but this time we're getting more talent in return.

guillensdisciple
12-03-2008, 01:50 AM
This kind of feels like the Carlos Lee for Scott Podsednik deal in that another move will follow this deal because of the money freed up, but this time we're getting more talent in return.

Carlos Lee was amazing, we should have recieved tip tier talent for him.

Javy is average/ below average and we got really good talent for him.

This trade far surpasses the Carlos Lee trade.

WhiteSoxFan84
12-03-2008, 01:56 AM
Carlos Lee was amazing, we should have recieved tip tier talent for him.

Javy is average/ below average and we got really good talent for him.

This trade far surpasses the Carlos Lee trade.


Completely agree.
But it'd be very nice if we turned around and used the $ we are saving here and signed a solid SP (Derek Lowe anyone?).

gf2020
12-03-2008, 01:57 AM
This trade far surpasses the Carlos Lee trade.
In that it will lead to two world series championships instead of one?

btrain929
12-03-2008, 02:01 AM
Completely agree.
But it'd be very nice if we turned around and used the $ we are saving here and signed a solid SP (Derek Lowe anyone?).

Lowe is old and has a lot of teams after him. If there's no good fits this year, next year's FA market is very tempting with Figgins, Roberts, Lackey, Bay, etc.

guillensdisciple
12-03-2008, 02:03 AM
Lowe is old and has a lot of teams after him. If there's no good fits this year, next year's FA market is very tempting with Figgins, Roberts, Lackey, Bay, etc.

Lackey would fit so well in this rotation.... I think we should save up for him, good call on that one.

Lackye, Danks. Buerhle, Floyd, Marquez/ Poreda/ Richard/ someone else from system....

deadly pitching rotation and front four are playoff tested and proven.

SUCCESS!!

WhiteSoxFan84
12-03-2008, 02:11 AM
Lowe is old and has a lot of teams after him. If there's no good fits this year, next year's FA market is very tempting with Figgins, Roberts, Lackey, Bay, etc.

He maybe old, but he's not a power pitcher. Infact, he's the perfect pitcher for our ballpark: a sinker baller.
But he is going to be overpaid and it's a bad idea considering his home/away ERA split (2.30/4.42).

cburns
12-03-2008, 02:29 AM
Well what do we know? KW traded Javy who was a proven commodity (Think Garland plus the strikeouts, and a worn out welcome) for a bunch of prospects. Usually Kenny is the one trading prospects for proven commodities. Based on the way KW does business, I can't imagine the team is even close to being the final product we will see in spring training. It wouldn't surprise me in the least to see some of these prospects flipped to another team for either a leadoff man or a SP. The few players everyone has expected to be moved have been moved, so this is really nothing surprising. The money Kenny cleared on payroll will soon be filled by a veteran.

TDog
12-03-2008, 02:36 AM
Eww. Maybe MAYBE as a backup catcher. But not for your starting catcher.

Whether he sticks at catcher or not, he is dangerous with the bat. And considering the bats were going to be losing over the next year or 2, getting young quality ones now is a good thing.

I can't get excited about acquiring a player without a position. I can't get excited about acquiring a weak defensive catcher.

Given a choice of a good hitter playing catcher weakly and a strong defensive catcher hitting weakly, a winning team would always choose the latter. Pitching suffers with poor defensive catching.

The reality is that catchers who are good enough defensively to remain in the major leagues without being able to hit are backups behind players who can hit better while handling pitchers and providing acceptable defense. I have read that Flowers isn't very close to handling pitchers and providing acceptable defense. He seems nothing more than a prospect whose bat may prove good enough that he sticks around even if he can't cut it as a catcher -- not unlike Brian Downing and Paul Konerko.

guillen4life13
12-03-2008, 02:36 AM
TBQH, to go with the rebuilding talks... I have to say that IFF this is to be a rebuilding year, I'm all for it. I say that knowing that I thought '08 would have been a good year to rebuild. I was wrong.

But here's my reasoning: The Sox just stocked up on some pretty decent young talent. There's a whole bunch of payroll coming off the books next offseason, and with the economy acting as it is, cutting payroll was something of a given. Knock on wood, a year from now the economy is in much better shape. Young players have a year to develop and/or be traded. The free agent class next offseason looks pretty nice and the Sox have lots of money to spend. Build a solid core of young players and fill needs with FA signings and you're suddenly looking at a team the rest of the AL doesn't look forward to playing.

oeo
12-03-2008, 02:39 AM
I can't get excited about acquiring a player without a position. I can't get excited about acquiring a weak defensive catcher.

Any Joe Schmo can slide into 1B/DH. It's not like he lacks the power to move there. To say he's not going to have a position is silly.

btrain929
12-03-2008, 02:43 AM
I can't get excited about acquiring a player without a position. I can't get excited about acquiring a weak defensive catcher.

Given a choice of a good hitter playing catcher weakly and a strong defensive catcher hitting weakly, a winning team would always choose the latter. Pitching suffers with poor defensive catching.

The reality is that catchers who are good enough defensively to remain in the major leagues without being able to hit are backups behind players who can hit better while handling pitchers and providing acceptable defense. I have read that Flowers isn't very close to handling pitchers and providing acceptable defense. He seems nothing more than a prospect whose bat may prove good enough that he sticks around even if he can't cut it as a catcher -- not unlike Brian Downing and Paul Konerko.

If I'm a GM and I have a catcher that can rake but isn't up to your standards defensively, he can be moved to 1B, DH, etc and keep raking. If I have a catcher that is a defensive-whiz but can't hit, he'll help me out maybe once every 10 days as a backup, but more than likely he's going to be released and signed to many minor league deals with invitations to Spring Traing throughout his career. Yay!

Which would I want, hmmm.....

In our baseball pickup game, you stick with Donny Lucy, and I'll take Victor Martinez.

TDog
12-03-2008, 03:04 AM
If I'm a GM and I have a catcher that can rake but isn't up to your standards defensively, he can be moved to 1B, DH, etc and keep raking. If I have a catcher that is a defensive-whiz but can't hit, he'll help me out maybe once every 10 days as a backup, but more than likely he's going to be released and signed to many minor league deals with invitations to Spring Traing throughout his career. Yay!

Which would I want, hmmm.....

In our baseball pickup game, you stick with Donny Lucy, and I'll take Victor Martinez.

But the White Sox need a catcher, or at least they will within a couple of years. I believed they needed a better defensive catcher than Pierzynski coming into 2008. Ultimately, I was wrong, because the White Sox had enough to win the division and Pierzynski handled the pitchers well. Also, Toby Hall had a better season than I expected. Still, most teams ran at will against the White Sox, and the catchers were part of the problem.

I won't complain about the White Sox acquiring good hitters for their farm system, but they need players who have positional skills. Major league designated hitters tend to be experienced major leaguers, not minor league designated hitters. In fact, pitchers hit on more than half the teams in the majors. There aren't that many DH jobs out there.

sweetjpo
12-03-2008, 03:06 AM
All I am going to say is Brian Roberts....We have freed up enough cap space to make a big splash for a FA...Problem of lead off and second basemen solved

oeo
12-03-2008, 03:07 AM
All I am going to say is Brian Roberts....We have freed up enough cap space to make a big splash for a FA...Problem of lead off and second basemen solved

Roberts isn't a free agent until next year...

btrain929
12-03-2008, 03:08 AM
But the White Sox need a catcher, or at least they will within a couple of years. I believed they needed a better defensive catcher than Pierzynski coming into 2008. Ultimately, I was wrong, because the White Sox had enough to win the division and Pierzynski handled the pitchers well. Also, Toby Hall had a better season than I expected. Still, most teams ran at will against the White Sox, and the catchers were part of the problem.

I won't complain about the White Sox acquiring good hitters for their farm system, but they need players who have positional skills. Major league designated hitters tend to be experienced major leaguers, not minor league designated hitters. In fact, pitchers hit on more than half the teams in the majors. There aren't that many DH jobs out there.

If you're just concerned about the starting C position, then don't worry yourself about it since AJ has 2 more years left on his extension, along with a NTC. Overall, it's just good to inject more talented youth into our farm system.

btrain929
12-03-2008, 03:09 AM
All I am going to say is Brian Roberts....We have freed up enough cap space to make a big splash for a FA...Problem of lead off and second basemen solved

Roberts isn't a free agent until next year...

Well, I guess you're done talking then, eh? :D:

sweetjpo
12-03-2008, 03:10 AM
Roberts isn't a free agent until next year...

Yes but we have the money to now trade for him and lock him up, now that we aren't wasting money on Javy. And we still do have Lance Broadway that should be thrown into the mix of pitchers. Buerhle, Danks, Floyd, Bailey, and Broadway make up a pretty good rotation.

TDog
12-03-2008, 03:12 AM
If you're just concerned about the starting C position, then don't worry yourself about it since AJ has 2 more years left on his extension, along with a NTC. Overall, it's just good to inject more talented youth into our farm system.

While acquiring an apparently strong hitter lacking in any positional skills may have some long-term benefits, it's nothing to get excited about.

btrain929
12-03-2008, 03:14 AM
While acquiring an apparently strong hitter lacking in any positional skills may have some long-term benefits, it's nothing to get excited about.

Why do I have this gut feeling that you're a huuuuge Brian Anderson fan? :D:

btrain929
12-03-2008, 03:16 AM
Yes but we have the money to now trade for him and lock him up, now that we aren't wasting money on Javy. And we still do have Lance Broadway that should be thrown into the mix of pitchers. Buerhle, Danks, Floyd, Bailey, and Broadway make up a pretty good rotation.

Bold1: He probably would prefer to hit the FA market and see what type of attraction he gets as supposed to signing an extension he's been with for a handleful of months.
Bold2: Hahaha, he's still alive? Broadway is utter garbage. Just ship him off with another spare part for Taveras and let him enjoy an 8.00ERA in COL.

sweetjpo
12-03-2008, 03:19 AM
Broadway is garbage? Who is our other option? Contreras? Richard? Haegar? Broadway has much more talent than any of those other pitchers. And Tavares is absolute garbage, a one tool player

btrain929
12-03-2008, 03:27 AM
Broadway is garbage? Who is our other option? Contreras? Richard? Haegar? Broadway has much more talent than any of those other pitchers. And Tavares is absolute garbage, a one tool player

Richard and Marquez. How many options do we need, 8? Broadway has sucked in the minors, has sucked in the bigs, can't throw harder than 87, his changeup is only a 4-5 MPH difference, he has no good offspeed pitches, and he went home to pout after the season even though he was invited to stay with the team during the playoffs. Do you need any other reasons? Haeger isn't even with the team anymore, rook', get a clue.

And Tavarez actually has an arm to go along with his speed to play CF unlike a 1-trick pony like Owens. Him in the 9 hole would be welcomed by me. He was playing injured last year, and had an amazing 2007.

KRS1
12-03-2008, 03:48 AM
can't throw harder than 87,

Could you hate/exaggerate any more. Dude, he's touched 92 on multiple occasions, and did so a lot in his 07 big league debut. I'm certainly not a big fan of his, but you could try being objective for once.

guillensdisciple
12-03-2008, 03:49 AM
Richard and Marquez. How many options do we need, 8? Broadway has sucked in the minors, has sucked in the bigs, can't throw harder than 87, his changeup is only a 4-5 MPH difference, he has no good offspeed pitches, and he went home to pout after the season even though he was invited to stay with the team during the playoffs. Do you need any other reasons? Haeger isn't even with the team anymore, rook', get a clue.

And Tavarez actually has an arm to go along with his speed to play CF unlike a 1-trick pony like Owens. Him in the 9 hole would be welcomed by me. He was playing injured last year, and had an amazing 2007.

Wow, I would never come back to this thread if I was handled like that.

Ownage.

KRS1
12-03-2008, 03:52 AM
Broadway is garbage? Who is our other option? Contreras? Richard? Haegar? Broadway has much more talent than any of those other pitchers. And Tavares is absolute garbage, a one tool player

Contreras at one time had more talent in his pinky finger than Lance has in his entire body, and I would still take a healthy Jose over Lance any day of the week and twice on Sunday. Too bad he's out for at least half a season though.

With the offense, I can handle a couple of rooks at 2b and 3b, but we would have to acquire a stud to play CF for me to feel comfortable with that. With the staff, I don't want any more than one kid brought into the fold this year, so hopefully Kenny has something up his sleeve to fill the 4th spot.

jabrch
12-03-2008, 08:29 AM
All I am going to say is Brian Roberts....We have freed up enough cap space to make a big splash for a FA...Problem of lead off and second basemen solved

Hopefully we won't need to spend big $ on a FA IF. Between TCM, Beckham, Viceido, Getz, etc., we should be covered around the horn for a while. I'd like to see the Sox next big splash be a big bat in CF.

Bucky F. Dent
12-03-2008, 08:31 AM
Do we know yet who the four coming back are?

The Tribune was reporting this morning that we are getting Flowers, Lillibridge, Gilmore, and Santos Rodriguez.

I know little about these four other than the little that I have seen of Lillibridge w/ the Braves, and that Flowers had a great Fall league at the plate, but I have to say that I am thrilled to get rid of Boone Logan!!!!

Law11
12-03-2008, 08:52 AM
Yes but we have the money to now trade for him and lock him up, now that we aren't wasting money on Javy. And we still do have Lance Broadway that should be thrown into the mix of pitchers. Buerhle, Danks, Floyd, Bailey, and Broadway make up a pretty good rotation.

With the market for Roberts as high as it is balt will still continue to ask for top players and prospects in return and you know they will want Porida (sp) in the mix of any trade.

whitesox901
12-03-2008, 08:59 AM
Kenny must be working on trying to get a SP, I doubt he would of traded Javy without knowing that someone was going to fill his void.

The Immigrant
12-03-2008, 09:32 AM
Kenny must be working on trying to get a SP, I doubt he would of traded Javy without knowing that someone was going to fill his void.

Many of us thought the same thing after he traded Garland last year but, like last year, I don't expect him to sign any free agent starters.

NLaloosh
12-03-2008, 09:38 AM
Dye will be traded for pitching. You can take that to the bank.

esbrechtel
12-03-2008, 09:40 AM
Agreed...Dye is next on the way out...Too bad he has made some solid contributions to this team...

whitesox901
12-03-2008, 09:41 AM
Dye will be traded for pitching. You can take that to the bank.

I was just thinking that myself. I'm guessing the Dye for Bailey trade will happen sooner than latter.

EMachine10
12-03-2008, 09:47 AM
I was just thinking that myself. I'm guessing the Dye for Bailey trade will happen sooner than latter.
:whiner:

palehozenychicty
12-03-2008, 09:50 AM
I will say this much. Whoever is traded or signed will be somewhat unexpected. I never saw the Vazquez to Braves coming......

Tragg
12-03-2008, 09:52 AM
Yes but we have the money to now trade for him and lock him up, now that we aren't wasting money on Javy. And we still do have Lance Broadway that should be thrown into the mix of pitchers. Buerhle, Danks, Floyd, Bailey, and Broadway make up a pretty good rotation. So let's spend talent on a 1 year rent?
Pass

Tragg
12-03-2008, 09:54 AM
And Tavarez actually has an arm to go along with his speed to play CF unlike a 1-trick pony like Owens. Him in the 9 hole would be welcomed by me. He was playing injured last year, and had an amazing 2007.
That was luck. He can't drive the ball and doesn't walk. HIs slap hits happened to get through between the infielders in 2007 at a particularly high rate; that will probably happen every 3 or 4 years.

gr8mexico
12-03-2008, 09:57 AM
Some info on Tyler Flower from Rotoworld.com and in page 2 some info on Beckham
http://www.rotoworld.com/content/features/column.aspx?sport=MLB&columnid=2&articleid=31709

whitem0nkey
12-03-2008, 10:12 AM
Some info on Tyler Flower from Rotoworld.com and in page 2 some info on Beckham
http://www.rotoworld.com/content/features/column.aspx?sport=MLB&columnid=2&articleid=31709

the first thing it brings up is how he tested positive for PEDs in 06

UofCSoxFan
12-03-2008, 10:44 AM
For those worried about Flowers's defense, a lot of your criticisms can be applied to AJ. Good hitter, bad defense. Sure AJ may "handle" a staff well (although that's debateable if you ask people in San Fransisco) but he's terrible throwing baserunners out (and yes the blame for that can be shared with our pitchers, but a lot is on AJ). I still rather have him than 80% of the catchers in the league. My biggest problem with the catching situation last year is we didn't have a good defensive backup to sub late/spare AJ. It's a pretty proven formula: have a good offensive primary catcher and a good defensive backup catcher if you can't have the rare guy that can do both.

btrain929
12-03-2008, 11:33 AM
Could you hate/exaggerate any more. Dude, he's touched 92 on multiple occasions, and did so a lot in his 07 big league debut. I'm certainly not a big fan of his, but you could try being objective for once.

1) Sure, but you forgot the question mark after "more."
2) I don't care about his '07 big league debut. I've been told on numerous occasions that anything that happened in '07 doesn't matter, for example: Fields' 23 HR's, Vazquez' 15-8 record, Willy Tavarez' .320/.367 line, Brent Lillibridge's .280/.340 with 40SB's, etc.
3) Even if he was jacked up a few times and hit 92, that still doesn't change the other facts that I listed about him: that his changeup is usually within 5 MPH of his fastball (therefore not effective), he has nothing that resembles an out-pitch, and there's no way he can be in favor of the club after ditching them in the playoffs to go home and be bad at some other part of his life.

LoveYourSuit
12-03-2008, 12:10 PM
why is the Score still reporting that we received Jo-Jo in this trade? :scratch:

And they keep saying 3 prospects instead of 4.

jabrch
12-03-2008, 12:15 PM
1)therefore not affective)


Grammarians around WSI are crying...

btrain929
12-03-2008, 12:23 PM
Grammarians around WSI are crying...

Well I take pride in spelling Vazquez', Buehrle's, Viciedo's, and Betemit's name correctly at least. :D:

Thome25
12-03-2008, 12:25 PM
why is the Score still reporting that we received Jo-Jo in this trade? :scratch:

And they keep saying 3 prospects instead of 4.

Because they report right off of the incorrect information that's written in the Chicago newspapers. Today apparently it's the Sun-Times and yesterday it was the non-existant money issues between the Reds and Sox in a potential Dye trade that was speculated about in the Tribune.

Britt Burns
12-03-2008, 12:46 PM
I really, really like this trade. We shed a good hunk of salary and get a close-to-being-ready premium prospect at a premium position and three others with good upside for a guy who never proved he could win when it mattered and a LOOGY who the Sox had lost confidence in.

We do need a starter now. We may be able to cobble 1 good season from the 4-5 candidates for the last two rotation spots (Richard, Marquez, Broadway, Poreda, etc.) but the last thing we need is a repeat of 2003 or 1996 when we had 4 good starters but virtually ceded every 5th game. We get that and a little speed and KW has got something cooking both short and long term.

If nothing else, this should finally silence those who bemoaned Chris Young for Javy (and I was one of those people). I don't see how anyone can claim Young is a better prospect than Flowers, let alone the other 3 who come along in this trade.

Lastly, I do feel bad for Chris Getz. He and Lillibridge will be gunning for the same spot on the roster and I bet Lillibridge (along with Betemit) will be our infield bench.

Lip Man 1
12-03-2008, 12:55 PM
Jab:

My only "agenda" is to win...period.

I feel that you have a better chance of doing so with veterans who have a track record. You feel otherwise...so be it, we'll agree to disagree.

Time will tell how this plays out the rest of this off season and in 2009.

Ultimately the season will show who appeared to be more correct in their assumptions.

Lip

RockyMtnSoxFan
12-03-2008, 01:05 PM
Because they report right off of the incorrect information that's written in the Chicago newspapers. Today apparently it's the Sun-Times and yesterday it was the non-existant money issues between the Reds and Sox in a potential Dye trade that was speculated about in the Tribune.

So, who are we getting back? The article on ESPN says Jo-Jo Reyes, Lillibridge, and possibly Flowers, Gilmore, and Rodriguez. On whitesox.com it says the Sox were allowed to choose three from a group of five, and were most interested in Lillibridge and Flowers. SI is reporting Flowers, Gilmore, Lillibridge, and Rodriguez. Which one is correct?

soxrme
12-03-2008, 01:06 PM
I believe that veterans are important to the team. He was an innings eater who will be missed. Trades for prospects are always iffy, KW has a good track record lately, hope he is right on this one.

champagne030
12-03-2008, 02:03 PM
If nothing else, this should finally silence those who bemoaned Chris Young for Javy (and I was one of those people). I don't see how anyone can claim Young is a better prospect than Flowers, let alone the other 3 who come along in this trade.



Do you realize that while Flowers has been pretty impressive with the stick he has never been above high A ball?

LoveYourSuit
12-03-2008, 02:04 PM
Jab:

My only "agenda" is to win...period.

I feel that you have a better chance of doing so with veterans who have a track record. You feel otherwise...so be it, we'll agree to disagree.

Time will tell how this plays out the rest of this off season and in 2009.

Ultimately the season will show who appeared to be more correct in their assumptions.

Lip

I agree with you Lip. Veterans or prospects, nothing is guaranteed to make you contender but I like my chances better with veterans than the unknown(prospects).

But based on the current track record Kenny has shown on getting young players on the brink of a break out..... I think I have to give him the benefit of the doubt. The only thing is that he is due to bust on one of these because he's been too hot so far with Thornton, Gavin, Danks, Quentin, Alexei, etc. I would hate for this to be the season that the young players do not pan out and bust on the field. That would make for a miserable season and also it may make you lose your fanbase in such hard economic times.

Now if he fills up the farm system with these kids for a year and goes out and re-invests the money currently saved on good FA players.... than all is good in my world.

Procol Harum
12-03-2008, 02:07 PM
Will probably miss the "inning-eating" thing, but otherwise...don't let the screen door hit ya on the way out, Javy old boy.... :wink:

EndemicSox
12-03-2008, 02:12 PM
Love it, Javy is simply a lost cause when the games mean something...

KRS1
12-03-2008, 02:16 PM
1) Sure, but you forgot the question mark after "more."
2) I don't care about his '07 big league debut. I've been told on numerous occasions that anything that happened in '07 doesn't matter, for example: Fields' 23 HR's, Vazquez' 15-8 record, Willy Tavarez' .320/.367 line, Brent Lillibridge's .280/.340 with 40SB's, etc.
3) Even if he was jacked up a few times and hit 92, that still doesn't change the other facts that I listed about him: that his changeup is usually within 5 MPH of his fastball (therefore not effective), he has nothing that resembles an out-pitch, and there's no way he can be in favor of the club after ditching them in the playoffs to go home and be bad at some other part of his life.

You flat out lied and exaggerated by saying he can't top 87, when he has clearly lived around 90 and has touched 92 in every game he has gone out there as a starter. As for his change, it usually sits around 82, so if his average fastball is 90, that would be an 8 MPH difference, and if you don't think that is effective, perhaps you should go watch some of the games Johan pitched against us with a 93 FB and 85 change. Don't believe me? Fine, go look at his pitch FX, or the tapes. You're verging on rare territory with the ridiculously biased nature of your posts, and the way you pass those opinions off as facts every time.

btrain929
12-03-2008, 02:25 PM
You flat out lied and exaggerated by saying he can't top 87, when he has clearly lived around 90 and has touched 92 in every game he has gone out there as a starter. As for his change, it usually sits around 82, so if his average fastball is 90, that would be an 8 MPH difference, and if you don't think that is effective, perhaps you should go watch some of the games Johan pitched against us with a 93 FB and 85 change. Don't believe me? Fine, go look at his pitch FX, or the tapes. You're verging on rare territory with the ridiculously biased nature of your posts, and the way you pass those opinions off as facts every time.

Every time I saw him pitch with the Sox in '08, he was at 87-88 with his fastball, with his change at 82-83. I don't believe his average fastball is 90. Has he touched 90? Probably. Is that his average? Nuh-uh.

Now let's say, for instance, that for some reason I'm wrong and he throws 90 ocnsistently with an 82 changeup. Point is: he's still bad, both in the minors and in the bigs, and his name would probably never be mentioned around here if he wasn't a 1st round pick.

Argue that point, please.....

PennStater98r
12-03-2008, 03:20 PM
You flat out lied and exaggerated by saying he can't top 87, when he has clearly lived around 90 and has touched 92 in every game he has gone out there as a starter. As for his change, it usually sits around 82, so if his average fastball is 90, that would be an 8 MPH difference, and if you don't think that is effective, perhaps you should go watch some of the games Johan pitched against us with a 93 FB and 85 change. Don't believe me? Fine, go look at his pitch FX, or the tapes. You're verging on rare territory with the ridiculously biased nature of your posts, and the way you pass those opinions off as facts every time.

:bitchslap:

:popcorn:

SweetnesSox
12-03-2008, 03:33 PM
Isn't it obvious the Sox are just dumping payroll to make a run for LeBron in 2010?

whitesox901
12-03-2008, 03:36 PM
Isn't it obvious the Sox are just dumping payroll to make a run for LeBron in 2010?

:rolling:

Britt Burns
12-03-2008, 03:45 PM
Do you realize that while Flowers has been pretty impressive with the stick he has never been above high A ball?

I should have been more clear--if 2005 Chris Young had been traded for 2008 Flowers plus three others, I don't think you would have heard much complaining. You could argue that Young put up decent numbers in his one AA season and has speed, or that Flowers plays a premium position, walks a lot and excelled in the AFL, but as a prospect swap it would be about equal and that is essentially what has occured.

jabrch
12-03-2008, 04:23 PM
I should have been more clear--if 2005 Chris Young had been traded for 2008 Flowers plus three others, I don't think you would have heard much complaining. You could argue that Young put up decent numbers in his one AA season and has speed, or that Flowers plays a premium position, walks a lot and excelled in the AFL, but as a prospect swap it would be about equal and that is essentially what has occured.

and if 2008 Chris Young (.248/.315/.443 with 22 HR and 14 SB in almosst 700 PA) got traded for that package, we'd be celebrating as well.

Yet some aren't celebrating because we are losing Javy. Now I am a Javy fan. And I wonder who will replace him. But I won't piss on this move until I know more and can look at it in the context of the entire rest of the offseason.

sunofgold
12-03-2008, 04:35 PM
People are right to miss a guy giving us 200 IP and taking the ball every 5th game. However, there was no guarantee that Vazquez was going to make 200 IP in 2009. Not at his recent pace. He never made it to the fifth inning in his last four starts (including playoff game).

Now was the right time to let him loose. We seem to time this pretty well. Freddy Garcia (for Floyd), Loazia (for Contreras), McCartney (for Danks).

Even let Garland go at the right time. Garland earned 14 wins last year, but his ERA went up to 4.90! And he went from a hitter's ballpark to a pitcher's ballpark.

Still we need a veteran starter. Don't really want unproven starters in the fourth and fifth spot. Rather have another veteran starter even if it is a one or two year deal.

Rdy2PlayBall
12-03-2008, 04:43 PM
I think this is a decent trade. Kenny will probably try to unload Dye for a #3 or #4 starter, and will sign an old vet to compete with Broadway/Richard for the #5 spot. Once the Dye situation is complete, we can finally get a good picture of where this team stands.

There's a spot in this link about Tyler Flowers, just use your find feature:

http://www.baseballamerica.com/today/prospects/ask-ba/2008/267236.htmlDye for a 3 or 4 stater would be retarded considering we just gave up a 3 or 4 stater, 2 or 3 in if in a good year. :scratch: Dye is too good of a player to give up in my opinion, if he gets traded for someone just because their young, this is definitely a rebuilding year. :rolleyes:

TDog
12-03-2008, 04:49 PM
Why do I have this gut feeling that you're a huuuuge Brian Anderson fan? :D:

Probably because you're guilty of stereotyping White Sox fans. I'm not a huge Brian Anderson fan. I posted that I preferred starting Mackowiak over Anderson when that was an issue because I didn't like Anderson's work ethic and the options were limited. I would have started Anderson over Griffey or Swisher last year, though. I was all for the White Sox acquiring a centerfielder last offseason but was disappointed they picked up Swisher to play center. Whoever plays center for the Sox in 2009 had better be a very good defender.

Defense is important, especially up the middle, but this isn't about center. Defense is critically important behind the plate. The White Sox need a catcher like Ed Herrmann, who can handle pitchers, throw out runners, block the plate and, if it comes up, teach himself how to be a great knuckleball catcher -- all this while developing into a pretty good hitter.

What the Sox acquired in Flowers wasn't, from what I read, a catcher, but a player who has potential as a hitter but will have to learn a position, whether it's the one he has been playing or an entirely new one. If and when he learns a position, I'll be impressed with his acquisition.

FedEx227
12-03-2008, 04:52 PM
Flowers will likely be replacing Thome or Konerko at either 1B/DH, that's just the reality of it and I can't say I'd be too disappointed if he continues with that potential.

jabrch
12-03-2008, 04:58 PM
McCartney (for Danks).


I wish we had McCartney. He could play Beatles songs between innings.

Woofer
12-03-2008, 05:16 PM
To me, this whole off season so far has been 1 big salary dump. I am hoping that Kenny is going to make a go at a big name pitcher, but to me this is the beginning of The Kids Can Play part 2. This is fine, but if we are planning on going small time in 2009, I will not be making many trips to see White Sox games this year. I've spent way too much money and time on this team to fake happiness about dumping vets for prospects. Hopefully, Kenny has a plan besides getting younger and cheaper.

btrain929
12-03-2008, 05:34 PM
To me, this whole off season so far has been 1 big salary dump. I am hoping that Kenny is going to make a go at a big name pitcher, but to me this is the beginning of The Kids Can Play part 2. This is fine, but if we are planning on going small time in 2009, I will not be making many trips to see White Sox games this year. I've spent way too much money and time on this team to fake happiness about dumping vets for prospects. Hopefully, Kenny has a plan besides getting younger and cheaper.

:whiner::whiner::whiner:

UofCSoxFan
12-03-2008, 05:34 PM
To me, this whole off season so far has been 1 big salary dump. I am hoping that Kenny is going to make a go at a big name pitcher, but to me this is the beginning of The Kids Can Play part 2. This is fine, but if we are planning on going small time in 2009, I will not be making many trips to see White Sox games this year. I've spent way too much money and time on this team to fake happiness about dumping vets for prospects. Hopefully, Kenny has a plan besides getting younger and cheaper.

First of all there is a ton of time before the season starts. Dumpster is the only big free agent to sign. The Sox dropped 11 mil on a minor leaguer from Cuba...not exactly being cheap.

The Sox dumped a veteran pitcher with a ton of innings on his arm who at this point possesses as his biggest asset the ability to eat innings. Of course when you are down 6 runs at the end of those starts does it really matter. They also dumped a player with no position and the third lowest batting average in baseball. Bartolo Colon was a guy on the wrong side of 30 that could eat a ton of innings and actually was effective when we let him walk. I'd say that turned out to be a pretty wise move in hindsight. Freddy Garcia likewise.

The fact that we were able to get anything for these guys is a miracle, and people are bitching about it. This team may be rebuilding (although I still think they will likely win the Central) or they could be freeing up money for a free agent signing. In either case, this team is setting itself up very nicely for the future in my opinion. Yes people might not like one or two down years (that again, I don't think will happen), but at some point we were going to have to restock our minor leagues and dump some old slow players...or did you expect Dye, Vazquez, Thome, Konerko, etc... to be putting up good number into their 40s?

Vazquez was getting boo'd at home, called out by his manager, and was completely ineffective. Same with Logan. Swisher had worn out his welcome in many cases as well and again didn't have a spot. Last year we had one of the slowest teams I can ever remember. We had a very pedestrian offense despite being at or near the top of the league in home runs. Somethings have to change. When most of your team is in their early to mid thirties, I rather get a guy or two that could be an All-Star in 5 years than a mediocre major league ready player.

doublem23
12-03-2008, 05:41 PM
People are right to miss a guy giving us 200 IP and taking the ball every 5th game. However, there was no guarantee that Vazquez was going to make 200 IP in 2009. Not at his recent pace. He never made it to the fifth inning in his last four starts (including playoff game).

While I will agree that KW has had a knack for sensing when his veteran pitchers were starting to break down, you really can't cite his last 4 outings and declare that his "pace." Javier has hit 200 IP every year since 2000 except 1 (In 2004, when he only tossed 198).

Sample size everyone!

doublem23
12-03-2008, 05:44 PM
To me, this whole off season so far has been 1 big salary dump. I am hoping that Kenny is going to make a go at a big name pitcher, but to me this is the beginning of The Kids Can Play part 2. This is fine, but if we are planning on going small time in 2009, I will not be making many trips to see White Sox games this year. I've spent way too much money and time on this team to fake happiness about dumping vets for prospects. Hopefully, Kenny has a plan besides getting younger and cheaper.

Spoken like a true fan!

http://www1.istockphoto.com/file_thumbview_approve/550313/2/istockphoto_550313_high_five.jpg

Red Barchetta
12-03-2008, 05:49 PM
To me, this whole off season so far has been 1 big salary dump. I am hoping that Kenny is going to make a go at a big name pitcher, but to me this is the beginning of The Kids Can Play part 2. This is fine, but if we are planning on going small time in 2009, I will not be making many trips to see White Sox games this year. I've spent way too much money and time on this team to fake happiness about dumping vets for prospects. Hopefully, Kenny has a plan besides getting younger and cheaper.

Edit - To me, this whole off season so far has been 1 big salary dump of players who failed down the stretch, perhaps had clubhouse issues, tended to pout over manager comments and were overpaid for their final stats. I for one will not miss watching Swisher take a fastball down the middle of the plate in a key situation or Vasquez giving up early leads. The nicest compliment I can give both of them is that they stayed healthy.

Cabrera and Crede are 99% gone with Uribe on the ledge as well. I will hate to see Dye or Konerko go, however I think we got the best years out of both of them.

Bravo Kenny!

jabrch
12-03-2008, 05:49 PM
My only "agenda" is to win...period.

Lip - You have an anti-management campaign that has been going on since I have gotten here. I know you want to win - but you can't deny your dislike for management/ownership is a constant theme of yours.

I feel that you have a better chance of doing so with veterans who have a track record. You feel otherwise...so be it, we'll agree to disagree.

Don't you feel like it makes sense to figure our who we have before deciding if we have a better chance of winning or not? I don't know if kids or vets are better. I think a mix is best. Javy is decent - I like him - but he is our 4th best starter. He's been OK - not great. Are you SURE that we won't have a better 4th starter out there this year?

Time will tell how this plays out the rest of this off season and in 2009.

Yet you have concluded that we are going to be worse off without waiting to even see who we will bring to the table, much less to see how they perform.

When you go to a restaurant, do you evaluate the meal while reading the first third of the menu?

Ultimately the season will show who appeared to be more correct in their assumptions.

Well - the season will tell us what happened - but it won't tell us who was more right. Because you are drawing conclusions about the season based on not having any idea who will be on the Opening Day roster and I am saying that we should wait until we see the roster before we draw any conclusions. You do agree that KW has always had a tendency to make unexpected deals, and that his track record has been pretty decent in terms of having a competitive team in nearly every season he has run the team, right? Why not wait until we see what is going to be on the team to determine this is a lost cause?

Woofer
12-03-2008, 06:12 PM
Edit - To me, this whole off season so far has been 1 big salary dump of players who failed down the stretch, perhaps had clubhouse issues, tended to pout over manager comments and were overpaid for their final stats. I for one will not miss watching Swisher take a fastball down the middle of the plate in a key situation or Vasquez giving up early leads. The nicest compliment I can give both of them is that they stayed healthy.

Cabrera and Crede are 99% gone with Uribe on the ledge as well. I will hate to see Dye or Konerko go, however I think we got the best years out of both of them.

Bravo Kenny!

I agree that so far we traded off or broken ties with alot of last years disappointments. I will not miss Swisher swinging at ball 4 in the dirt, or watching strike 3 right down the middle. I will probably miss Uribe and Crede, if only because of my fond memories of them in 2005.
I am hoping that Kenny has something good in the works, because we only have 3 real starting pitchers, and of the three, you really don't know if Danks or Floyd will be as good as last year. I feel that we are asking for trouble if we don't sign or trade for some proven starters. I don't know who we can trade to get anyone back as good as what Vazquez was, without really opening up even more holes in the team. This is what worries me, the slide backwards. The Royals and Pirates count on unproven rookies every year. I don't want my Sox to copy them.

BadBobbyJenks
12-03-2008, 06:45 PM
People are right to miss a guy giving us 200 IP and taking the ball every 5th game. However, there was no guarantee that Vazquez was going to make 200 IP in 2009. Not at his recent pace. He never made it to the fifth inning in his last four starts (including playoff game).



Is it the fact that only Livan Hernandez has thrown more innings since 2000 or that Javy's lowest inning total since 2000 is 198 that led you to this brilliant conclusion?

FedEx227
12-03-2008, 06:47 PM
The Royals and Pirates are inept organizations that have no semblance of player development or organization.

There is a big difference between using unproven rookies and the Pirates. The Twins use a lot of unproven rookies and do just fine.

guillen4life13
12-03-2008, 07:42 PM
I know I wasn't so happy about this trade when it first broke, but now that there's more concrete information and we are NOT getting Jo-Jo Reyes (and ESPN is the only outlet that disagrees), I'm liking it. Flowers is the deal breaker.

I'm alright with a rebuild because I think it will only take a year. Out of Marquez/Richard/Poreda/Broadway I think that at least one will shine. I hate to say "Coop'll fix him," but no one can deny the job he has done on young pitchers since he came up to the big club. He's one of the best (if not the best) pitching coaches in the majors right now when it comes to coaching young players. I am especially high on Marquez as I think his pitching style will fit the Cell perfectly. Get a cutter to go with the sinker and watch out. I also think Richard will do a lot better than he did this past season. I think Poreda will take another year before he's ready to start in the big show. If Homer Bailey is acquired, then I'm very optimistic about things working out. Maybe not necessarily in 2009, but if it takes these pitchers a year to get their bearings like it took Danks I'm alright with it.

It kind of reminds of what the A's did with the Big 3 or even what the Sox did in the early '90's with McDowell, Fernandez, Alvarez and Bere. Buehrle stays as the veteran workhorse.

We will see how things play off this off season, but at this point the Sox have a lot of options.

Now all the Sox need is someone to lead off.

I expect a low profile SP deal (possible when Dye is traded).

Frater Perdurabo
12-03-2008, 07:42 PM
I'm rather "meh" on this trade, pending other possible forthcoming moves.

Noneck
12-03-2008, 08:20 PM
The White Sox need a catcher like Ed Herrmann, who can handle pitchers, throw out runners, block the plate and, if it comes up, teach himself how to be a great knuckleball catcher -- all this while developing into a pretty good hitter.



You did forgot one important aspect. Herrmann had concrete legs, he made Konerko look like a speed merchant.

Zisk77
12-03-2008, 08:26 PM
I have a few thoughts and some I'm reiterating. I understand the people that are dismayed when we are trading vets for guys we never heard of its scary. But consider:

Had Kenny stood pat and said we are the defending central champs and we'll win it again, do you think we would? I think 2007 would be more likely.

How many times has Kenny made a deal that has made us say ***! and then a year later we are saying how the hell was able to accomplish that robbery? Can we give him just a little faith? at least until opening day?

Going into the off seson I thought maybe we could make atrade or 2 sign a free agent or 2 and be better. Problem is the FA class sucks for our needs this year and no one is willing to part with the players we want for what we have that doesn't include Floyd, Danks, Alexie, or Carlos.

So kenny has traded some guys with big salaries who really didn't contribute and got a bevy of unproven talent and cleared up quite a sum of money.

Its possible that Kenny may flip some of the prospects for players we need. although i don't think so. I think Kenny will trade Dye for another starter... Bailey, Sonnanstine, Jackson, or someone else and gamble that some of our young players via trade or guys like Fields and BA come through. If they don't but we stay in the hunt midseason he'll have some prospects to trade if it looks like we have a chance. If not, he finds out who can play and has a saved a on of cash to spend on the 2009/10 Fa class which meets our needs better...Figgins, Crawford (possibly) Roberts Holiday etc. if you define that as rebuilding, fine. i think it gives us a chance to win now and a great chance to win next year and for years to come.

the fact of the matter is we don't have a core of good players we have 2 cores of good players. a young Core: Quentin, Ramirez, Danks, Floyd, Jenks,Beurhle - still in prime and and old core AJ, Dye, Konerko, Thome, Jose.
Kenny has chosen to build around the young core and use the old core to gather those pieces. AJ will likely be part of our future and probably either Paulie or Dye with Thome playing ou his contract.

For those of you who do not wish to go to games because of this don't let the door hiy you were the good Lord split you. Better seats for me.

soxwon
12-03-2008, 08:30 PM
LOVE IT LOve It Love It, one of the best trades ever for KW.
In two years it will be a steal, I love It.

champagne030
12-03-2008, 08:36 PM
I'm rather "meh" on this trade, pending other possible forthcoming moves.

As you should be. We just traded one of the better #4 starters in baseball and the only thing we received in return that might help us in 2009 is a backup SS.

It is only December 3rd so things could change, but we certainly didn't trade from a position of strength. We already had a hole in the rotation and now we have two. And they're rather gaping at this point.

My whole offseason so far has been rather "meh". We've dumped about $35M in salaries and signed a 19 year old prospect to an $11M MLB contract and received an about to be 23 year old prospect, in A ball, that has a good stick, but projects to a 1B/DH.

LoveYourSuit
12-03-2008, 08:43 PM
I'm rather "meh" on this trade, pending other possible forthcoming moves.


You and I make 2.

Knowing Kenny, I think he will be giving us a nice surprise here very soon.

KyWhiSoxFan
12-03-2008, 09:35 PM
Any news on when this trade becomes official, other than after he passes a physical? I thought Vazquez was supposed to take his physical today.

Rockabilly
12-03-2008, 09:37 PM
Any news on when this trade becomes official, other than after he passes a physical? I thought Vazquez was supposed to take his physical today.

tomorrow it will be official

champagne030
12-03-2008, 09:38 PM
Any news on when this trade becomes official, other than after he passes a physical? I thought Vazquez was supposed to take his physical today.

It's not that easy to drag Javy off a Puerto Rican beach.

btrain929
12-03-2008, 11:05 PM
It's not that easy to drag Javy off a Puerto Rican beach.

:rolling::rolling: touche'.

TDog
12-03-2008, 11:43 PM
You did forgot one important aspect. Herrmann had concrete legs, he made Konerko look like a speed merchant.

Ed Herrmann may have been the slowest man to play for the White Sox in my lifetime. He also was probably the best catcher among White Sox players who didn't make it to the Hall of Fame. His lack of speed was an unimportant aspect to his game.

Speed should be teh last thing you're looking at when you're looking for a catcher. Hitting should be the next to the last thing.

Tragg
12-04-2008, 12:26 AM
I like the trade.
But since the trade, there has been a resurgence of "Jerry Owens in CF" speculation. Not sure how the 2 relate, but I get the heebejeebies thinking about Owens on the roster.

I guess the relation is that the Braves have some CF prospects and we didn't get one, ergo we like what we have.

Noneck
12-04-2008, 12:38 AM
Ed Herrmann may have been the slowest man to play for the White Sox in my lifetime. He also was probably the best catcher among White Sox players who didn't make it to the Hall of Fame. His lack of speed was an unimportant aspect to his game.

Speed should be teh last thing you're looking at when you're looking for a catcher. Hitting should be the next to the last thing.

When you have a team of base clogging plow horses like the Sox have now, speed does matter.

Lip Man 1
12-04-2008, 12:48 AM
For what it's worth they had on the phone one of the stat geeks from Baseball Prospectus (shudder...) on the phone for an interview with Comcast Sports Chicago. He said the four players the Sox got "are all legit prospects or you can reasonably dream that they might contribute..."

He also said the key question is can Flowers catch? He said that if he can't stay behind the plate "he is a lumbering DH/1st base-type." He said the issues right now with Flowers are that (quote) "he's borderline fat, slow and needs to work on his defense behind the plate."

Lip

WhiteSoxFan84
12-04-2008, 01:24 AM
Rube Baker from Major League II!
http://www.mlb.com/images/2008/03/06/79waHDmX.jpg
Tyler Flowers on top, Baker below...
http://www.golfdigest.com/images/equipment/2008/04/eqil04_watneybag.jpg
"Hey Paulie, I'm on the rooster!"

btrain929
12-04-2008, 01:27 AM
"You want the pitcher to pitch.........from 2nd base?"

WHILEPITCH
12-04-2008, 01:28 AM
That's awesome. I think when I saw that photo before, a similar thought was hovering somewhere in my mind.

Nellie_Fox
12-04-2008, 01:29 AM
Rube Baker from Major League II!
http://www.mlb.com/images/2008/03/06/79waHDmX.jpg
Tyler Flowers on top, Baker below...
http://www.golfdigest.com/images/equipment/2008/04/eqil04_watneybag.jpg
"Hey Paulie, I'm on the rooster!"I don't see it.

WhiteSoxFan84
12-04-2008, 01:30 AM
"You want the pitcher to pitch.........from 2nd base?"

lool, one of the best characters ever.
i always watch major league and major league ii in the offseason.

its also amazing how much willie harris reminded me of willie "mayes" hayes.

and bob uecker is priceless.
"it's a funny game, eh, monte?"
"well at least the bird survived"
"who cares? its a rat with wings"

WhiteSoxFan84
12-04-2008, 01:31 AM
I don't see it.

it's a bit of a stretch, but close enough and funny enough that it'll work lol


EDIT: you may not see that, but i definitely dont see how this belongs in the vazquez to the braves thread... i know he was involved in the deal, but it has nothing to do with the deal... my thread is about a soon to be sox player and whom he resembles... weird.

CWSpalehoseCWS
12-04-2008, 02:14 AM
Rube Baker from Major League II!
http://www.mlb.com/images/2008/03/06/79waHDmX.jpg
Tyler Flowers on top, Baker below...
http://www.golfdigest.com/images/equipment/2008/04/eqil04_watneybag.jpg
"Hey Paulie, I'm on the rooster!"

Hope he has a playboy subscription.

TDog
12-04-2008, 02:38 AM
...
He also said the key question is can Flowers catch? He said that if he can't stay behind the plate "he is a lumbering DH/1st base-type." He said the issues right now with Flowers are that (quote) "he's borderline fat, slow and needs to work on his defense behind the plate."

Lip

I haven't seen Flowers play, but that is my concern.

If Flowers develops into a good hitter who has no speed, his lack of speed wouldn't be a problem if he is a good catcher. A catcher is expected to be slow.

KyWhiSoxFan
12-04-2008, 07:47 AM
I haven't seen Flowers play, but that is my concern.

If Flowers develops into a good hitter who has no speed, his lack of speed wouldn't be a problem if he is a good catcher. A catcher is expected to be slow.

This past season at Myrtle Beach in the Carolina league, Flowers stole 8 bases and was caught stealing 7 times. Not sure what that means. In the Arizona league, he did not try to steal a base.

kraut83
12-04-2008, 08:46 AM
I love the fact that the organization is getting younger. I am also nervous that there are 2 question marks in the rotation at this point.

I am hopeful KW will add another SP in the next few weeks.

FarmerAndy
12-04-2008, 09:03 AM
I am hopeful KW will add another SP in the next few weeks.

Is the '09 season starting in January? :smile:

I'm just hopeful that there's a solid 1-4 plan by spring training, and then a competition for the 5th spot with the arms that Kenny is collecting.

Red Barchetta
12-04-2008, 09:52 AM
I agree that so far we traded off or broken ties with alot of last years disappointments. I will not miss Swisher swinging at ball 4 in the dirt, or watching strike 3 right down the middle. I will probably miss Uribe and Crede, if only because of my fond memories of them in 2005.
I am hoping that Kenny has something good in the works, because we only have 3 real starting pitchers, and of the three, you really don't know if Danks or Floyd will be as good as last year. I feel that we are asking for trouble if we don't sign or trade for some proven starters. I don't know who we can trade to get anyone back as good as what Vazquez was, without really opening up even more holes in the team. This is what worries me, the slide backwards. The Royals and Pirates count on unproven rookies every year. I don't want my Sox to copy them.

I agree. I had hoped we could get another solid pitcher and maintain Vasquez as an inning-eating 5th starter. He was not a #2 or even #3 guy on the staff.

When it comes to pitching, I trust Kenny. So far he has made great moves. I really can't think of one pitcher he let go who came back to haunt us.

SoxFan88
12-04-2008, 10:11 AM
http://www.suntimes.com/sports/baseball/whitesox/725641,CST-SPT-sox04.article

Flowers suspended 50 games for performance-enhancing drugs in 2006? Anyone have details?

esbrechtel
12-04-2008, 10:26 AM
He is supposedly clean now...

cws05champ
12-04-2008, 10:27 AM
http://www.suntimes.com/sports/baseball/whitesox/725641,CST-SPT-sox04.article

Flowers suspended 50 games for performance-enhancing drugs in 2006? Anyone have details?
He was a late round pick and a draft and follow, I believe I read that the Braves had said it stemmed from his JC playing days. He was suspended in May 2006 shortly after signing with the Braves and it cost him some of 2006 and parts of 2007. There have been no incidents since then and his #'s have increased even after 2007.

btrain929
12-04-2008, 10:27 AM
http://www.suntimes.com/sports/baseball/whitesox/725641,CST-SPT-sox04.article

Flowers suspended 50 games for performance-enhancing drugs in 2006? Anyone have details?

He just "cares" too much.

voodoochile
12-04-2008, 10:37 AM
I haven't seen Flowers play, but that is my concern.

If Flowers develops into a good hitter who has no speed, his lack of speed wouldn't be a problem if he is a good catcher. A catcher is expected to be slow.


Then every Sox fan will be very happy...

jabrch
12-04-2008, 10:57 AM
Then every Sox fan will be very happy...


Bull****. Some of our fans will just have to dig to find something else to be miserable about.

You know better than to expect EVERY sox fan to be happy.

wilburaga
12-04-2008, 11:18 AM
Trade is official as per ESPN/MLB.

W

kitekrazy
12-04-2008, 11:39 AM
I saw him about 3 weeks ago and the Reds scout next to me said he'll never see a game behind the plate in MLB.

AS if the Reds are known for their scouting.

ode to veeck
12-04-2008, 11:49 AM
People are right to miss a guy giving us 200 IP and taking the ball every 5th game. However, there was no guarantee that Vazquez was going to make 200 IP in 2009. Not at his recent pace. He never made it to the fifth inning in his last four starts (including playoff game).

Now was the right time to let him loose. We seem to time this pretty well. Freddy Garcia (for Floyd), Loazia (for Contreras), McCartney (for Danks).

Even let Garland go at the right time. Garland earned 14 wins last year, but his ERA went up to 4.90! And he went from a hitter's ballpark to a pitcher's ballpark.

Still we need a veteran starter. Don't really want unproven starters in the fourth and fifth spot. Rather have another veteran starter even if it is a one or two year deal.

I still don't like the Garland trade, while not a #2 anymore, he's a much more solid #3, #4, #5 with some good years left given up for what? overpriced rent-a-cancer

I like the Javy trade though, as while he clearly has some nice pitches, I don't think he'll ever menally get it and we got a number of good prospects, Javy was a much weaker starter than Jon (and still it by a long shot)

kitekrazy
12-04-2008, 11:49 AM
Any Joe Schmo can slide into 1B/DH.

That seems like the MO of the Sox organization.

#1swisher
12-04-2008, 11:49 AM
Bull****. Some of our fans will just have to dig to find something else to be miserable about.

You know better than to expect EVERY sox fan to be happy.

I agree with you!

bestkosher
12-04-2008, 11:59 AM
I like the Lillibridge addition to the Sox. He has the speed that Kenny is looking for and he seems to be a good hard working kid. I found this interview of him last year when he was in the minors. Seem to be a genuine person.

http://www.truveo.com/Brent-Lillibridge-Interview/id/3316105970

If the kid comes up with the Sox this year as a 2B or SS I can see him hitting around .250, with 25-30 SB's. He seem to be a decent fielder from the videos I have seen of him.

ode to veeck
12-04-2008, 12:05 PM
I like the Lillibridge addition to the Sox. He has the speed that Kenny is looking for and he seems to be a good hard working kid. I found this interview of him last year when he was in the minors. Seem to be a genuine person.

http://www.truveo.com/Brent-Lillibridge-Interview/id/3316105970

If the kid comes up with the Sox this year as a 2B or SS I can see him hitting around .250, with 25-30 SB's. He seem to be a decent fielder from the videos I have seen of him.

one of the nice things in the trade and we've been short on speed for most of the decade and it really compliments and kick starts our fast ball power hitting offense when we have it

sox1970
12-04-2008, 12:10 PM
I hope Lillibridge gets a chance at CF. Maybe Kenny will answer that possibility today.

oeo
12-04-2008, 12:16 PM
I like the Lillibridge addition to the Sox. He has the speed that Kenny is looking for and he seems to be a good hard working kid. I found this interview of him last year when he was in the minors. Seem to be a genuine person.

http://www.truveo.com/Brent-Lillibridge-Interview/id/3316105970

If the kid comes up with the Sox this year as a 2B or SS I can see him hitting around .250, with 25-30 SB's. He seem to be a decent fielder from the videos I have seen of him.

It looks like he's about 14. :lol:

btrain929
12-04-2008, 12:23 PM
It sounds like a lot of people have already given up on Lillibridge. I think we are in a good position at 2B. Best case scenario is we either have Getz live up to expectations and become a future #2 hitter, posting numbers around .280/.350 with low K #'s, or Lillibridge can play 2B, bat 8-9th while giving us solid D, .250/.325-.330 with some pop and 25SB's. I can live with that from a guy making the league minimum playing 2B.

champagne030
12-04-2008, 12:41 PM
AS if the Reds are known for their scouting.

Volquez, Cueto, Bruce, Votto, Alonzo, Bailey.....It does seem they have a very good eye for young talent.

RCWHITESOX
12-04-2008, 12:54 PM
That's one side of the argument, the other side is what did we get back for those guys? And these are players leaving the Sox who despite poor seasons were still established major league veterans with good track records. It's easy to bash Javy after his awful September, but we're going to miss those 200+ innings and Ks.

None of the players returned in those deals filled any of the large holes on the roster, and it's even sketchy if any of these prospects (and in Betemit's case a former top prospect who hasn't panned out) can help us contend in 2009.

I hold out final judgement until we break camp in February, but the other shoe has to got to drop at some point... I'm still giving Kenny the benefit of the doubt, but he's really pushing my faith in him. Having a major league player added to the team soon would restore some of my faith in KW and in even a decent season in 2009.
Last year Kenny let the horse out of the barn and instead of getting the players he targeted he had to settle for his second and third choices. This year it may work out to be quite the opposite. When spring training starts we will then know what kind of team we have. So let's let Kenny wheel and deal and see where this team is after the smoke clears.

soxinem1
12-04-2008, 01:07 PM
I think Tyler Flowers is a key to this deal. I've read in the past he is strong, throws well, has good footwork, and can play defense. Plus he can hit and make decent contact.

He might be our back up C shortly, then a regualar in a few years.

I like this trade....

ajismyhero
12-04-2008, 01:15 PM
The good and bad of this trade depends on what Kenny's next move is. It also relies on Danks and Floyd to be solid pitchers for a long time and gives no room for either of them to be mediocre.

oeo
12-04-2008, 01:17 PM
The good and bad of this trade depends on what Kenny's next move is. It also relies on Danks and Floyd to be solid pitchers for a long time and gives no room for either of them to be mediocre.

You act like Javy was better than both of them.

DirtySox
12-04-2008, 01:32 PM
Keith Law on the trade:

http://sports.espn.go.com/espn/blog/index?name=law_keith
(http://www.whitesoxinteractive.com/vbulletin/showthread.php?t=107970&page=12)

champagne030
12-04-2008, 01:35 PM
I think Tyler Flowers is a key to this deal. I've read in the past he is strong, throws well, has good footwork, and can play defense. Plus he can hit and make decent contact.


You read wrong.

He's going to need to spend the next couple of years in the minors to work on his defense if he's ever going to play catcher for a MLB team.

Konerko05
12-04-2008, 01:37 PM
Keith Law on the trade:

http://www.whitesoxinteractive.com/vbulletin/showthread.php?t=107970&page=12

That made me feel like a dog chasing his own tail.

Wrong link.

Sargeant79
12-04-2008, 01:43 PM
It sounds like a lot of people have already given up on Lillibridge. I think we are in a good position at 2B. Best case scenario is we either have Getz live up to expectations and become a future #2 hitter, posting numbers around .280/.350 with low K #'s, or Lillibridge can play 2B, bat 8-9th while giving us solid D, .250/.325-.330 with some pop and 25SB's. I can live with that from a guy making the league minimum playing 2B.

I agree. Between Nix, Getz, and Lillibridge, one of these guys is bound to be able to be a serviceable second baseman. If someone pulls away from the pack in spring training, the job is his to lose. If no one separates himself, then the best two can be platooned with the other going to AAA.

My only complaint with this would be if we don't upgrade at either 3B (not likely...I'd be surprised if Fields isn't there opening day) of CF. I think 3 huge question marks out of 8 in the every day lineup is a little more than I feel comfortable with.

DirtySox
12-04-2008, 01:47 PM
Whoops.

Fixed

http://sports.espn.go.com/espn/blog/index?name=law_keith

RockyMtnSoxFan
12-04-2008, 02:25 PM
I agree. Between Nix, Getz, and Lillibridge, one of these guys is bound to be able to be a serviceable second baseman. If someone pulls away from the pack in spring training, the job is his to lose. If no one separates himself, then the best two can be platooned with the other going to AAA.

My only complaint with this would be if we don't upgrade at either 3B (not likely...I'd be surprised if Fields isn't there opening day) of CF. I think 3 huge question marks out of 8 in the every day lineup is a little more than I feel comfortable with.

Did the Sox acquire Nix? The last I knew he was in the Rockies system and sustained a bad face injury in the Olympics. I thought I'd heard that the Rockies weren't keeping him on their roster, though.

PalehosePlanet
12-04-2008, 02:30 PM
Did the Sox acquire Nix? The last I knew he was in the Rockies system and sustained a bad face injury in the Olympics. I thought I'd heard that the Rockies weren't keeping him on their roster, though.

We signed him about a month ago.

http://www.denverpost.com/sports/ci_10837562

btrain929
12-04-2008, 03:03 PM
Whoops.

Fixed

http://sports.espn.go.com/espn/blog/index?name=law_keith

I don't know if I should keep reading. He has said that Vazquez has a below-average changeup (wrong) and Logan tops out at 91 (wrong).

Hitmen77
12-04-2008, 03:27 PM
Kenny says he thinks Fowler is going to be an all-star catcher.

http://blogs.chicagosports.chicagotribune.com/sports_hardball/2008/12/williams-on-tra.html

The article also says KW envisions Lillibridge to fill the super utility role that Ozuna filled the last few years.

PalehosePlanet
12-04-2008, 03:29 PM
I don't know if I should keep reading. He has said that Vazquez has a below-average changeup (wrong) and Logan tops out at 91 (wrong).

Yeah, I noticed that too. It's funny how he writes his thoughts with such strong conviction yet is dead wrong. Javy's fastball is straight? He has a very good two-seamer with good movement, as well as the flaws you mentioned.

Law loses a little more credibility with every read .

EndemicSox
12-04-2008, 03:32 PM
http://www.fangraphs.com/statss.aspx?playerid=801&position=P

This site probably shows what opponents hit against his change, I'm sure Law isn't talking out of his behind.

kittle42
12-04-2008, 03:36 PM
Kenny says he thinks Fowler is going to be an all-star catcher.

Joe Fowler, of WWF and TV infomercial fame?

champagne030
12-04-2008, 03:47 PM
Joe Fowler, of WWF and TV infomercial fame?

Dexter Fowler of Tulsa Drillers fame. :wink:

jabrch
12-04-2008, 03:47 PM
Law loses a little more credibility with every read .

Law has no credibility. The man was refused credentials for not being at enough baseball games in person. 18 internet-based writers were considered - only 2 were denied. Law was one of them.

I have zero use for any evaluation Keith Law makes unless it is about mathematics. That's the only area where he adds value to a baseball discussion. When he attempts to "scout", he shows how little he knows.

jabrch
12-04-2008, 03:52 PM
That seems like the MO of the Sox organization.


Cuz we usually have a history of crappy DH/1B over the past 15 years?

soxinem1
12-04-2008, 07:27 PM
You read wrong.

He's going to need to spend the next couple of years in the minors to work on his defense if he's ever going to play catcher for a MLB team.

Are you saying this because of Keith Law's article? I hope you have other sources to back up what you claim.