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WhiteSoxFan84
11-27-2008, 02:37 AM
Linky (http://sports.yahoo.com/mlb/news?slug=ti-peavycubs112608&prov=yhoo&type=lgns)


This has truly turned into the 2007-2008 Cubs offseason only this time it's Jake Peavy rather than Brian Roberts. What's sad is that they actually STILL need Roberts, but they don't NEED Peavy. Leave it to the Cubs to try and make a trade for someone they don't actually NEED.

I honestly see this as the Padres trying to get the Braves back into the Peavy talks and possibly scare them enough to give up whomever Towers was asking for.

JermaineDye05
11-27-2008, 02:43 AM
Linky (http://sports.yahoo.com/mlb/news?slug=ti-peavycubs112608&prov=yhoo&type=lgns)


This has truly turned into the 2007-2008 Cubs offseason only this time it's Jake Peavy rather than Brian Roberts. What's sad is that they actually STILL need Roberts, but they don't NEED Peavy. Leave it to the Cubs to try and make a trade for someone they don't actually NEED.

I honestly see this as the Padres trying to get the Braves back into the Peavy talks and possibly scare them enough to give up whomever Towers was asking for.

That's the main thing I argue with my friend about. Jake Peavy in the Cubs rotation will not give them that much needed offense that they need come next post season. They're just setting themselves up for another let down.

I will be royally pissed if the Cubs get Peavy, I just seriously don't see it happening though.

Domeshot17
11-27-2008, 02:46 AM
I don't know. I mean, Peavy-Zambrano-Harden-Dempster-Lilly is BY FAR the best rotation in the NL, and possibly all of baseball.

If pitching wins in the post season, you would have to say they open up 2009 as the odds on favorites to win it all

WhiteSoxFan84
11-27-2008, 02:48 AM
That's the main thing I argue with my friend about. Jake Peavy in the Cubs rotation will not give them that much needed offense that they need come next post season. They're just setting themselves up for another let down.

I will be royally pissed if the Cubs get Peavy, I just seriously don't see it happening though.

Why?
1) let us see what they give up to get a piece they don't need.
2) peavy's era will go up at least half a run if not a full run pitching half his games in wrigley
3) harden will most likely make less than 15 starts
4) dempster will NOT pitch the way he did this past season
5) combine all of the above and you have the following: peavy's era around 3.25, dempster's era around 3.75, harden missing half the season, zambrano being a wild card as usual with an era around 3.50, and lilly who will be average as he's always been with 12-14 wins and an era near 4.25.
6) most importantly, they're in the NL. as sox fans, we should be happy that he's not going to the yankees, angels, or anyone in the AL, especially the AL central.


I truthfully don't see this being that special of a rotation. on paper, it's pretty hot. but when the season actually starts? i think back to 2004 when the cubs had the "DREAM ROTATION" of prior/wood/zambrano/clement/maddux. how'd that rotation end up doing?

WhiteSoxFan84
11-27-2008, 02:53 AM
I don't know. I mean, Peavy-Zambrano-Harden-Dempster-Lilly is BY FAR the best rotation in the NL, and possibly all of baseball.

If pitching wins in the post season, you would have to say they open up 2009 as the odds on favorites to win it all

as i said before, on paper, YES. but you are assuming everything stays constant and that is a HUGE assumption.
- harden is injury prone.
- dempster has A LOT of pressure to repeat his performance from last season after he got the big dough and people doubting him pressure.
- zambrano, who knows which zambrano you're going to get.
- lilly, average.
- peavy, had a 4.28 ERA outside of PetCo last year!!!! and now, if traded to the cubs, he'd be pitching half his games at wrigley, a few games in minute maid, and a few games at the great american ballpark? all 3, hitter friendly parks? he won't be cy young material anymore, i can safely predict that.

JermaineDye05
11-27-2008, 03:14 AM
Why?
1) let us see what they give up to get a piece they don't need.
2) peavy's era will go up at least half a run if not a full run pitching half his games in wrigley
3) harden will most likely make less than 15 starts
4) dempster will NOT pitch the way he did this past season
5) combine all of the above and you have the following: peavy's era around 3.25, dempster's era around 3.75, harden missing half the season, zambrano being a wild card as usual with an era around 3.50, and lilly who will be average as he's always been with 12-14 wins and an era near 4.25.
6) most importantly, they're in the NL. as sox fans, we should be happy that he's not going to the yankees, angels, or anyone in the AL, especially the AL central.


I truthfully don't see this being that special of a rotation. on paper, it's pretty hot. but when the season actually starts? i think back to 2004 when the cubs had the "DREAM ROTATION" of prior/wood/zambrano/clement/maddux. how'd that rotation end up doing?

Peavy is by far my favorite pitcher in the NL, and to see him in a Cubs jersey would make me want to vomit.

I bought a Peavy BP jersey this past season. So yeah

It's not because I think the Cubs would win or anything, it's just the fact that my favorite pitcher in the NL goes to my most hated NL team.

lukeman89
11-27-2008, 03:21 AM
last year an exception, peavy has had very stable home/road stats throughout his tenure pitching in petco. look at the three previous season before the last one, there is hardly any difference between home/road ERA, and if you adjust for ERA+ he's probably technically better on the road

DumpJerry
11-27-2008, 07:26 AM
I don't know. I mean, Peavy-Zambrano-Harden-Dempster-Lilly is BY FAR the best rotation in the NL, and possibly all of baseball.
With Harden in the mix, make that the best rotation for the first five innings until late May when Harden has his annual trip to the DL.

If Peavy van teach Aramis and Soriano how to hit in October, it could be worth it.

As far as being pissed off if they get him, I could not care less. We play them only six times, so the most we will see of him is two times out of 162 games next year.

Lip Man 1
11-27-2008, 11:28 AM
Going into the 1984 season Sox fans were salivating over a rotation of Hoyt, Dotson, Bannister, Seaver and Burns.

We all saw what happened didn't we?

Lip

Craig Grebeck
11-27-2008, 11:31 AM
Linky (http://sports.yahoo.com/mlb/news?slug=ti-peavycubs112608&prov=yhoo&type=lgns)


This has truly turned into the 2007-2008 Cubs offseason only this time it's Jake Peavy rather than Brian Roberts. What's sad is that they actually STILL need Roberts, but they don't NEED Peavy. Leave it to the Cubs to try and make a trade for someone they don't actually NEED.

I honestly see this as the Padres trying to get the Braves back into the Peavy talks and possibly scare them enough to give up whomever Towers was asking for.
Not really. Roberts is good, but they've got Fontenot and Derosa, who performed pretty well at 2B this season. Also, Peavy is a damn good pitcher, and is not merely a product of the park he pitches half his games in.

doublem23
11-27-2008, 11:36 AM
As far as being pissed off if they get him, I could not care less. We play them only six times, so the most we will see of him is two times out of 162 games next year.

Don't count out the 4-7 games we might have with them at the end of the year.

:wink:

I would like to see what this third team brings to the table. Obviously the Cubs on their own don't have the prospects to land Peavy, so I imagine to get him they'd have to give up some MLB talent.

btrain929
11-27-2008, 11:44 AM
http://i2.cdn.turner.com/si/2008/writers/frank_deford/06/18/cubbies/Piniella.jpg "But......but.......uggggghhhhhh........but we don't even NEED him!?!?"

WhiteSoxFan84
11-27-2008, 12:28 PM
Not really. Roberts is good, but they've got Fontenot and Derosa, who performed pretty well at 2B this season. Also, Peavy is a damn good pitcher, and is not merely a product of the park he pitches half his games in.

their needs are right handed power hitter, leadoff man, bullpen, backup catcher, rightfielder or a centerfielder, and luck, lots of it.

starting pitching isn't on the list because they have a very good rotation already. a leadoff man is something they definitely need, and roberts is just that. you can shift derosa to RF where he played a few games last season and did well. he's not the best out there, but most teams would give up a little bit of defense in RF to get the kind off offensive production he supplied in 2008.

Craig Grebeck
11-27-2008, 12:33 PM
their needs are right handed power hitter, leadoff man, bullpen, backup catcher, rightfielder or a centerfielder, and luck, lots of it.

starting pitching isn't on the list because they have a very good rotation already. a leadoff man is something they definitely need, and roberts is just that. you can shift derosa to RF where he played a few games last season and did well. he's not the best out there, but most teams would give up a little bit of defense in RF to get the kind off offensive production he supplied in 2008.
Leadoff hitter is not a position or a need. Some combination of Fontenot/Derosa at the top is more than adequate. I don't see where/how they need a right handed power hitter. Also, "luck" is not a need.

As for the need for a center fielder, the market sucks, so they plan on platooning Johnson/Fukudome in CF.

oeo
11-27-2008, 12:34 PM
That's the main thing I argue with my friend about. Jake Peavy in the Cubs rotation will not give them that much needed offense that they need come next post season. They're just setting themselves up for another let down.

If their offense performs like it did in 2008, then they don't need anything added to it. Just because it flopped in the postseason does not mean it was bad.

WhiteSoxFan84
11-27-2008, 12:38 PM
Leadoff hitter is not a position or a need. Some combination of Fontenot/Derosa at the top is more than adequate. I don't see where/how they need a right handed power hitter. Also, "luck" is not a need.

As for the need for a center fielder, the market sucks, so they plan on platooning Johnson/Fukudome in CF.

how is leadoff hitter not a NEED? they dont have 1, they NEED one.
and i meant LEFT handed power hitter. most would've picked up on that and corrected me but you chose to just read the surface lol.
and yes, the CF market sucks, fukudome most likely will get the spot opening day and that opens it up for derosa to possibly play RF and that opens up 2B for them to go out and get roberts, but that won't happen because they'd rather stockpile starting pitchers (and unless they plan on dealing harden, the acquisition of peavy is pretty unnecessary).

and as for the luck comment... wow man, seriously? ill throws hint at santa to get you a sense of humor for Christmas.

im done spending another second of my thanksgiving trying to help out the cubs' roster.

Craig Grebeck
11-27-2008, 12:42 PM
how is leadoff hitter not a NEED? they dont have 1, they NEED one.
and i meant LEFT handed power hitter. most would've picked up on that and corrected me but you chose to just read the surface lol.
and yes, the CF market sucks, fukudome most likely will get the spot opening day and that opens it up for derosa to possibly play RF and that opens up 2B for them to go out and get roberts, but that won't happen because they'd rather stockpile starting pitchers (and unless they plan on dealing harden, the acquisition of peavy is pretty unnecessary).

and as for the luck comment... wow man, seriously? ill throws hint at santa to get you a sense of humor for Christmas.

im done spending another second of my thanksgiving trying to help out the cubs' roster.
I'm trying to parse through this grammatically horrendous post, so excuse me if I don't read right as left. Again, they don't NEED a leadoff hitter. It's not a position. Fontenot has done fine there, and they can just as easily sign Furcal to play SS while making Fontenot/Theriot a platoon at 2B -- plenty of options in that scenario.

Also, ever heard the phrase "can't have too much starting pitching?" The Cubs intend to ditch Marquis, as he is a pretty mediocre pitcher.

WhiteSoxFan84
11-27-2008, 12:47 PM
I'm trying to parse through this grammatically horrendous post, so excuse me if I don't read right as left. Again, they don't NEED a leadoff hitter. It's not a position. Fontenot has done fine there, and they can just as easily sign Furcal to play SS while making Fontenot/Theriot a platoon at 2B -- plenty of options in that scenario.

Also, ever heard the phrase "can't have too much starting pitching?" The Cubs intend to ditch Marquis, as he is a pretty mediocre pitcher.

its thanksgiving. school is out. sorry professor, but i dont care enough to be compose professionally on a BASEBALL MESSAGE BOARD. did someone **** in your turkey or something guy?

Craig Grebeck
11-27-2008, 12:50 PM
its thanksgiving. school is out. sorry professor, but i dont care enough to be compose professionally on a BASEBALL MESSAGE BOARD. did someone **** in your turkey or something guy?
I'm nineteen, I'm not exactly a professor. Would it hurt to read what you're saying instead of just typing random words with no punctuation or capitalization?

JermaineDye05
11-27-2008, 12:53 PM
If their offense performs like it did in 2008, then they don't need anything added to it. Just because it flopped in the postseason does not mean it was bad.

They couldn't hit a RH pitcher. Their "lead off" hitter was lost at the plate. Their 3-4-5 decided to take an early vacation.

The main thing is the cubs need 1 if not both of these 2 if they want to win the world series.

1) A lead off hitter who doesn't swing for the fences constantly, who can get on base and disrupt the pitchers focus on the mound.

2) A LH power bat for the middle of the order.

They could easily get at least one of those two with what they have. Their pitching was fine last year, with the exception of Dempster, it was their offense that sucked donkey dick. They couldn't hit Lowe or Kuroda.

Jake Peavy could throw a shut out for 8+ innings with 15 k's, but it won't matter cause the Cubs have been shut out as well by a mediocre right hander.

dickallen15
11-27-2008, 12:54 PM
Linky (http://sports.yahoo.com/mlb/news?slug=ti-peavycubs112608&prov=yhoo&type=lgns)


This has truly turned into the 2007-2008 Cubs offseason only this time it's Jake Peavy rather than Brian Roberts. What's sad is that they actually STILL need Roberts, but they don't NEED Peavy. Leave it to the Cubs to try and make a trade for someone they don't actually NEED.

I honestly see this as the Padres trying to get the Braves back into the Peavy talks and possibly scare them enough to give up whomever Towers was asking for.

Any team that doesn't need Peavy must win the WS every year. Pitching wins.

JermaineDye05
11-27-2008, 01:09 PM
Any team that doesn't need Peavy must win the WS every year. Pitching wins.

Pitching is a given, also is timely hitting. A team needs to be able to take advantage of another teams mistakes, like the Dodgers did when the Cubs infield imploded in Game 2. Like Iguchi did when Graffanino missed that DP ball. Like Pauly did when the ump said the ball hit Dye and not his bat. Like AJ did when Josh Paul rolled the ball to the mound....you get the idea.

WhiteSoxFan84
11-27-2008, 01:12 PM
I'm nineteen, I'm not exactly a professor. Would it hurt to read what you're saying instead of just typing random words with no punctuation or capitalization?

you're 19...... and this is how serious/defensive you get discussing offseason baseball garbage? yikes. good luck with in your future endeavors with the opposite sex.

guillensdisciple
11-27-2008, 01:32 PM
you're 19...... and this is how serious/defensive you get discussing offseason baseball garbage? yikes. good luck with in your future endeavors with the opposite sex.

HAHAHAHAHAHAHAHAHA




Okay now regarding this thread. I think the Cubs are going to be over-hyped on all aspects of the field next year because of the offensive and pitching output posted last year.

Did anyone notice how almost every cubs hitter had a career year? Derosa, Ramirez, Soto, Theriot.

To say that they are going to perform how they did previously is a bit of a stretch.
So expecting a drop-off in offense, I can also safely say that their pitching won't be as swell as it should be.

Dempster was another over-hyped player going into free agency, had shown no previous signs of greatness and busts out. Esteban anyone?
Harden is great talent but is injury prone. while I don't want to see any player get injured, I believe he will be headed for the disabled list as he usually does. Lilly is mediocre, he is consistent in being okay. Zambrano has always been the rock in the cubs rotation, and while strike out rates shouldn't mean anything(hint Javier Vazquez), Zambrano's has been going down. This guy has absolutely filthy stuff, so when he can't get hitters out via strike out , that probably means he is digressing. He goes from 210 to 177 to 130 from 2006-2008. ERA climbs from 3.41 to 3.91 and one of the more important stats: the BAA jumped from .208 to .241. I am not going to say that there is anything wrong with Zambrano, but a pitcher who invests so much emotions and puts his body through so much stress with that strong delivery (and change of arm angles) that there might be a drop off in some of the pitches he has thrown.

Peavy is one guy that I see as dominant regardless of where he is. Last year was just a poor year. Prior to that, he had never shown any sign of failure. I expect him to be the leader of the cubs pitching staff if they do get him.

Craig Grebeck
11-27-2008, 01:49 PM
you're 19...... and this is how serious/defensive you get discussing offseason baseball garbage? yikes. good luck with in your future endeavors with the opposite sex.
You're on fire.

Also, to address the "Cubs can't hit RH pitchers" fallacy: their line against right-handed pitching in 2008: .274/.350/.443/.793.

35th and Shields
11-27-2008, 02:48 PM
If their offense performs like it did in 2008, then they don't need anything added to it. Just because it flopped in the postseason does not mean it was bad.

Exactly, everyone's acting like their offense sucks when they actually were second only to Texas in runs scored. Pitching >>> hitting.

jabrch
11-27-2008, 03:25 PM
If they can get Peavy and give up nothing but a few minor leaguers not named Vitters, it would be a great deal for them. Peavy having a full NTC and the Pads owner being desperate might end up really good for the Cubs.

Need him? I guess not. But who wouldn't take him over Marquis? Even if they just give Marquis up for nothing - it's worth it if the package they have to give up is 3-4 non-Vitters prospects from their system.

btrain929
11-27-2008, 04:25 PM
If they can get Peavy and give up nothing but a few minor leaguers not named Vitters, it would be a great deal for them. Peavy having a full NTC and the Pads owner being desperate might end up really good for the Cubs.

Need him? I guess not. But who wouldn't take him over Marquis? Even if they just give Marquis up for nothing - it's worth it if the package they have to give up is 3-4 non-Vitters prospects from their system.

If they are getting Peavy, they are giving up Vitters. More than likely, this 3rd team will give SD the young pitching they want, and Vitters will go to the 3rd team.

veeter
11-28-2008, 09:52 AM
Whether you deal directly with one team, or work a three team deal, to land a young Cy Young award winning pitcher, you have to give up more than a minor league third baseman. Dumping salary is no excuse for not getting a king's ransom for Peavy. The package the Braves put together was excellent. If Towers takes a step backwards in who he receives, so the jerk off cubs can get Peavy, there needs to be an investigation.

PatK
11-28-2008, 10:00 AM
If their offense performs like it did in 2008, then they don't need anything added to it. Just because it flopped in the postseason does not mean it was bad.

Exactly.

Craig Grebeck
11-28-2008, 10:18 AM
Whether you deal directly with one team, or work a three team deal, to land a young Cy Young award winning pitcher, you have to give up more than a minor league third baseman. Dumping salary is no excuse for not getting a king's ransom for Peavy. The package the Braves put together was excellent. If Towers takes a step backwards in who he receives, so the jerk off cubs can get Peavy, there needs to be an investigation.
Not really. Peavy really wants to go to the Cubs, and is rather "meh" about going to the Braves. No investigation necessary.

jabrch
11-28-2008, 10:24 AM
Peavy is one guy that I see as dominant regardless of where he is.

As long as "where he is" isn't on the road. See his home/road splits away from Petco.

jabrch
11-28-2008, 01:11 PM
Don't count out the 4-7 games we might have with them at the end of the year.

:wink:

I would like to see what this third team brings to the table. Obviously the Cubs on their own don't have the prospects to land Peavy, so I imagine to get him they'd have to give up some MLB talent.


I'm guessing they move Marquis + something to someone for whatever prospects the Pads are looking for. They'd package that with what sounds like a bunch of their own prospects and MLB players that the Pads want. I'm sure Fontenot and Pie are involved. Wouldn't surprise me to hear Cedeno and Marshall also.

veeter
11-28-2008, 01:39 PM
Not really. Peavy really wants to go to the Cubs, and is rather "meh" about going to the Braves. No investigation necessary.Then Towers should not move him. But he's clueless, so he might.

jabrch
11-28-2008, 01:54 PM
Then Towers should not move him. But he's clueless, so he might.

Um - what should he do? Get fired? If the owner tells him payroll is to be $XXX and he is at $XXX + Peavy, and that's the only movable part that accomodates it, and he gets a decent package of prospects, why exactly should he not do what his boss tells him to do and get fired?

It's not his fault that the owner is in the middle of a divorice and that the stock market has made it impossible for him to raise enough funds other ways to pay off his ex, and that this is his only trade piece, and that he has a full NTC that was granted in order to get him to sign a below market deal without line of sight to this happening.

I have no idea why you'd call Towers clueless for this. He's doing his job.

Frater Perdurabo
11-28-2008, 02:09 PM
Um - what should he do? Get fired? If the owner tells him payroll is to be $XXX and he is at $XXX + Peavy, and that's the only movable part that accomodates it, and he gets a decent package of prospects, why exactly should he not do what his boss tells him to do and get fired?

It's not his fault that the owner is in the middle of a divorice and that the stock market has made it impossible for him to raise enough funds other ways to pay off his ex, and that this is his only trade piece, and that he has a full NTC that was granted in order to get him to sign a below market deal without line of sight to this happening.

I have no idea why you'd call Towers clueless for this. He's doing his job.

If what you are describing is even close to an accurate description of the situation; if the owner of the team is ordering his GM reduce payroll so that he can pay a divorce settlement, the commissioner should step in immediately to remove the current owner and his wife, and sell his and her shares of the team to a new owner. It's preposterous that an owners' divorce should imperil the success of a franchise.

thedudeabides
11-28-2008, 02:30 PM
If what you are describing is even close to an accurate description of the situation; if the owner of the team is ordering his GM reduce payroll so that he can pay a divorce settlement, the commissioner should step in immediately to remove the current owner and his wife, and sell his and her shares of the team to a new owner. It's preposterous that an owners' divorce should imperil the success of a franchise.

Selig has been monitoring the situation pretty closely. This is a very messy divorce and a really complicated situation. The Padres have been one of the assets that both parties really covet, but they cannot allow team to lose money, so they're dumping salary. There's a really detailed article that gets into the particluars. I'll see if I can find it.

veeter
11-28-2008, 02:32 PM
If what you are describing is even close to an accurate description of the situation; if the owner of the team is ordering his GM reduce payroll so that he can pay a divorce settlement, the commissioner should step in immediately to remove the current owner and his wife, and sell his and her shares of the team to a new owner. It's preposterous that an owners' divorce should imperil the success of a franchise.Exactly. But if that were the case, the owner could have "asked" Peavy to please, please, please accept the Atlanta trade, so he could proceed with his divorce right away.

veeter
11-28-2008, 02:39 PM
Selig has been monitoring the situation pretty closely. This is a very messy divorce and a really complicated situation. The Padres have been one of the assets that both parties really covet, but they cannot allow team to lose money, so they're dumping salary. There's a really detailed article that gets into the particluars. I'll see if I can find it.The one forgotten group are Padre's fans. They're the one's losing in all of this, if true. First Hoffman, then possibly Peavy gone. I'm just sick of everytime a franchise is in financial trouble ass wipe Hendry is there getting taken care of.

jabrch
11-28-2008, 02:54 PM
Exactly. But if that were the case, the owner could have "asked" Peavy to please, please, please accept the Atlanta trade, so he could proceed with his divorce right away.

The reason Jake signed to stay at lower tham market value, and demanded a NTC was so that he didn't go somewhere he didn't want to be. The problem with the Atlanta trade is that the Braves have a strict and unflexible policy against giving out NTCs. They were unwilling to consider it with Peavy - so the deal never really had a chance. To this day, the teams have pretty much agreed on the players that would go, but there is nothing to do if Atlanta is not giving Peavy the same NTC coverage he has.

If what you are describing is even close to an accurate description of the situation; if the owner of the team is ordering his GM reduce payroll so that he can pay a divorce settlement, the commissioner should step in immediately to remove the current owner and his wife, and sell his and her shares of the team to a new owner. It's preposterous that an owners' divorce should imperil the success of a franchise.

The Commish is involved - and this is nearly exactly what is happening. But the Commish really needs to be careful with what he allows and doesn't allow.

Selig has been monitoring the situation pretty closely. This is a very messy divorce and a really complicated situation. The Padres have been one of the assets that both parties really covet, but they cannot allow team to lose money, so they're dumping salary. There's a really detailed article that gets into the particluars. I'll see if I can find it.

I can't find it either - but this is fairly public knowledge. John Moores is going through a bitter divorce (after 44 years of marriage) and his ex is going to really make him pay. Unfortunately, this is his biggest asset as his stock portfolio (he was the founder of BMC Software) is not quite as valuable as it was. His realestate holdings in SD have also taken quite a hit. The unfortunate thing is that the Moores have been very charitable in the S. Cal area. Moores is now just trying to get out of this (at age 60) and not lose the team.

That all being said, is EXACTLY why Towers has no choice. Peavey's NTC is a disaster for this franchise. If not for that, they'd have likely already dealt him to the Yanks for a top tier package lead by Hughes or to some other franchise. At this point, Jake calls all the shots, and any team acquiring him knows exactly that. For this reason, I am generally very opposed to FULL NTCs.

jabrch
11-28-2008, 02:58 PM
I'm just sick of everytime a franchise is in financial trouble ass wipe Hendry is there getting taken care of.

I'd much rather see him go to the Cubs than to the Yanks, Red Sox, Rays, Angels, Twins, Tigers, Indians, Jays, Os, etc.

Hendry is fortunate that, in this case, the player in question WANTS to be a Cub. Hendry gets to sit back and wait this one out. It's a nice spot to be in - with a 6 man rotaiton already, and looking at Peavey as a luxury he may be able to get for mostly expendable parts, and probably one top tier prospect.

veeter
11-28-2008, 03:00 PM
Don't you think the Braves would have bent the rules this one time, considering they were going to give up A LOT of talent? IMO, the Padres were cleaning their clock in that deal. Peavy must have simply said, "No, I want to go to the cubs."

veeter
11-28-2008, 03:03 PM
I'd much rather see him go to the Cubs than to the Yanks, Red Sox, Rays, Angels, Twins, Tigers, Indians, Jays, Os, etc.

Hendry is fortunate that, in this case, the player in question WANTS to be a Cub. Hendry gets to sit back and wait this one out. It's a nice spot to be in - with a 6 man rotaiton already, and looking at Peavey as a luxury he may be able to get for mostly expendable parts, and probably one top tier prospect.Apparently, you don't have the same hatred for the cubs and Hendry that I do.

jabrch
11-28-2008, 03:09 PM
Don't you think the Braves would have bent the rules this one time, considering they were going to give up A LOT of talent?

The answer is obviously no. Had they done it, the deal would have been done. They agreed on a group of players that the Pads could pick from - if the Braves could convince Peavey to drop his demand for a NTC. They wouldn't do it for Maddux, Glavine or Smoltz. They weren't going to do it for Peavey.

IMO, the Padres were cleaning their clock in that deal. Peavy must have simply said, "No, I want to go to the cubs."

You are entitled to your opinion - but your opinion is not how it went down. Peavey had a list of 3-5 teams he'd go to. The Cards, Braves and Cubs were on the list. He would have been very happy to go to the Braves. He's from that area (Mobile) and grew up a Braves fan. He just wouldn't go there, only to get possibly sent somewhere else where he didn't want to be at a later date. Since the Pads gave him that right, he wasn't going to give it up now. Can't say I blame him...

jabrch
11-28-2008, 03:11 PM
Apparently, you don't have the same hatred for the cubs and Hendry that I do.


Guess not...

I'd rather focus negative energy on Minnesota, Detroit and Cleveland...what I have left over is earmarked for Boston, NYY, LAA and Oakland. After that, I'm out of hate for a team that is fairly irrelevant to me, short of the six times we play them. Until they have a chance to take a playoff spot away from us, I don't care much other than the 6 times we play them.

veeter
11-28-2008, 03:19 PM
The bottom line is, Towers has already made it clear the cubs overrated, pathetic trading chips aren't enough for a trade with only them. That a third, or possibly fourth team would have to be invlolved to get something done. So, somewhere along the line, that third or fourth team is going to have to accept the cubs package. The very package the Padres have already said sucks. So Hendry is going to have to get creative and resourceful, something he's not very good at.

veeter
11-28-2008, 03:23 PM
Guess not...

I'd rather focus negative energy on Minnesota, Detroit and Cleveland...what I have left over is earmarked for Boston, NYY, LAA and Oakland. After that, I'm out of hate for a team that is fairly irrelevant to me, short of the six times we play them. Until they have a chance to take a playoff spot away from us, I don't care much other than the 6 times we play them.Fair enough.

jabrch
11-28-2008, 03:36 PM
The bottom line is, Towers has already made it clear the cubs overrated, pathetic trading chips aren't enough for a trade with only them.

Not exactly...

They are "enough" just the wrong configuration. I'm assuming that means that the Pads want a higher end pitching prospect and that they don't want Vitters. Vitters, or Vitters and Marquis, should be convertable, reasonably into a decent prospect, surely if the Cubs eat part of Marquis' deal.

So, somewhere along the line, that third or fourth team is going to have to accept the cubs package. The very package the Padres have already said sucks.

You are seeing this through the eyes of hatred, not the eyes of a dealmaker. It is sensible that if the Cubs best prospect is a 3B and the Pads don't want a 3B, they they can swap that 3B for a SP. That's not a package that anyone, anywhere, said "sucks". Show me where the Padres said that the Cubs deal sucks. You can't - they didn't. All they have said is that the Cubs are a strong contender, making a strong push, offering a strong package. It just is missing a #1 SP prospect to go along with the rest.

So Hendry is going to have to get creative and resourceful, something he's not very good at.

And your evidence of this is what? He seems to always find ways to get deals done. I understand that you do hate Jim Hendry, I'm not sure why - but I get it. That said, Jim Hendry is a good GM with good relationships with many people in the game, INCLUDING TOWERS. He's a fairly decent GM, and an even better scout.

veeter
11-28-2008, 05:44 PM
Jim Hendry is GREAT at signing big, big checks. His other deals for Derrick Lee and Aramis Ramirez were shameful deals by the Marlins and Pirates, which turned out great for the cubs. I'll give Hendry credit for somehow making those happen. Otherwise his trades have been average to awful. And I suspect his latest deal with Ceda and Gregg will end poorly for him as well.

canOcorn
11-28-2008, 06:58 PM
The bottom line is, Towers has already made it clear the cubs overrated, pathetic trading chips aren't enough for a trade with only them. That a third, or possibly fourth team would have to be invlolved to get something done. So, somewhere along the line, that third or fourth team is going to have to accept the cubs package. The very package the Padres have already said sucks. So Hendry is going to have to get creative and resourceful, something he's not very good at.

You got it. The Padres don't like any of the fluff the Flubs are offering as pitching. Marshall? Hill?? Maybe Vitters and Marmol gets the ball rolling, but that ship already sailed for the Flubs....Dumbo is their closer.

jcw218
11-28-2008, 07:12 PM
You got it. The Padres don't like any of the fluff the Flubs are offering as pitching. Marshall? Hill?? Maybe Vitters and Marmol gets the ball rolling, but that ship already sailed for the Flubs....Dumbo is their closer.

I would think that the Cubs would like to keem Marmol as the closer, don't forget that they just did acquire Kevin Gregg from the Marlins. It's my opinion that they would deal Marmol in order to get Peavy.

canOcorn
11-28-2008, 07:44 PM
I would think that the Cubs would like to keem Marmol as the closer, don't forget that they just did acquire Kevin Gregg from the Marlins. It's my opinion that they would deal Marmol in order to get Peavy.

Gregg sucks. I have my questions whether Marmol has the fortitude to close, but dealing him leaves them in Kittens/Wahoo like bullpen territory.

areilly
11-29-2008, 03:08 AM
Jim Hendry is GREAT at signing big, big checks. His other deals for Derrick Lee and Aramis Ramirez were shameful deals by the Marlins and Pirates, which turned out great for the cubs. I'll give Hendry credit for somehow making those happen. Otherwise his trades have been average to awful. And I suspect his latest deal with Ceda and Gregg will end poorly for him as well.

This is actually exactly how most GMs fare.

You're forgetting that Hendry is not only in a position to be on the winning end of salary dumps a la Lee and Ramirez, but that he's also in a position to make them happen when the Cubs need one as well by having the club eat part of the remaining salary. That's going to come in handy for cases such as when Fonzie starts stinking up the outfield at Wrigley in a few years, and for that I personally am a bit jealous of the increased options Cubs brass have at their disposal.

Craig Grebeck
11-29-2008, 09:29 AM
Jim Hendry is GREAT at signing big, big checks. His other deals for Derrick Lee and Aramis Ramirez were shameful deals by the Marlins and Pirates, which turned out great for the cubs. I'll give Hendry credit for somehow making those happen. Otherwise his trades have been average to awful. And I suspect his latest deal with Ceda and Gregg will end poorly for him as well.
What about his trade for Rich Harden? The Nomar deal? He traded Sosa and picked up Fontenot. He also bought low on Jason Kendall, who put in a half season of decent play. He's made some very good deals.

gosox41
11-29-2008, 09:41 PM
Linky (http://sports.yahoo.com/mlb/news?slug=ti-peavycubs112608&prov=yhoo&type=lgns)


This has truly turned into the 2007-2008 Cubs offseason only this time it's Jake Peavy rather than Brian Roberts. What's sad is that they actually STILL need Roberts, but they don't NEED Peavy. Leave it to the Cubs to try and make a trade for someone they don't actually NEED.

I honestly see this as the Padres trying to get the Braves back into the Peavy talks and possibly scare them enough to give up whomever Towers was asking for.


While they have bigger holes, Peavy fills a need. He's a legit #1. If he takes Marquis spot in the rotation, that is a huge hole filled.

WhiteSoxFan84
11-30-2008, 01:48 AM
What about his trade for Rich Harden? The Nomar deal? He traded Sosa and picked up Fontenot. He also bought low on Jason Kendall, who put in a half season of decent play. He's made some very good deals.

this past season, he also made one big trade, without making it.
confusing, i know, but im talking about reed johnson.
im sure he couldve approached the blue jays early in the season and offered them someone for him. but he didnt and instead picked up reed as a free agent. reed made put in a huge contribution and fit in with the ball club very well.

same can be said for jim edmonds but no one was going to give up ANYTHING for him and the only way the padres were going to get rid of him was to release him.



While they have bigger holes, Peavy fills a need. He's a legit #1. If he takes Marquis spot in the rotation, that is a huge hole filled.

Marquis in 2008: 11-9, 4.53 ERA, 167 IP

for a 5th starter, that's not bad at all. definitely not a "huge hole".

and with a rotation of peavy/zambrano/dempster/lilly/harden, who doesn't start in the playoffs? now assume pineilla wants to use lilly in the playoffs as the lone lefty to keep opposing hitters off balance, who sits? dempster, the guy you just signed to a $52 million deal? harden, the guy who sported a 1.77 ERA last season? zambrano? peavy? having lilly, dempster, or harden as a 5th starter is very impressive, yes. but if i were hendry, and i acquired peavy, id turn around and deal harden right away. harden is a free agent after 2009 and if he has a relatively healthy season, he will get 14mm+ per year. even if he doesn't, the yankees will definitely be willing to offer him 14mm annually. the cubs can't afford to pay him that much money (well they could, but they'll already have the 57.4mm committed to SPs in 2010: zambrano - 17.9, peavy - 15.0, dempster - 12.5, lilly - 12.0).

PatK
11-30-2008, 12:20 PM
They're saying the O's could be the third team with Pie involved.

Woofer
11-30-2008, 12:37 PM
They're saying the O's could be the third team with Pie involved.

Watch the Cubs somehow get Brian Roberts out of this deal.

jabrch
11-30-2008, 12:47 PM
They're saying the O's could be the third team with Pie involved.

McPhail loves him...Given that he is out of options, and that he hasn't yet hit, I'm not sure he has much value to get the kind of pitcher that the Pads should want.

jabrch
11-30-2008, 12:47 PM
Watch the Cubs somehow get Brian Roberts out of this deal.

They don't have the prospects to get both Peavey and Roberts.

Tragg
11-30-2008, 12:49 PM
They're saying the O's could be the third team with Pie involved.
It's hard to understand how that could help the situation. Pie has little value.
The Cubs are going to have to give up at least their top 2 prospects plus other talent to get a pitcher of this caliber.

soxinem1
11-30-2008, 12:57 PM
That said, Jim Hendry is a good GM with good relationships with many people in the game, INCLUDING TOWERS. He's a fairly decent GM, and an even better scout.

I agree. I definitely despise the cubs, but Hendry has made many a good move, several of which look quite genious.

I always thought Lilly was a scrub, but he is far out-performing many other highly-paid starters, like Garland, Silva, and others who make a ton more.

They did overpay on Soriano and Marquis, but hey, they wanted to show they were serious about winning so other players would want to come to cubbyville.

His minor deals like Henry Blanco, Reed Johnson, Mark DeRosa, dumping Barrett for Kendall, and others have shown he can be quite resourceful.

It's not his fault the team chokes. In all fairness, he's done what he can, and more to attempt removing a century of futility.

areilly
11-30-2008, 02:41 PM
yes. but if i were hendry, and i acquired peavy, id turn around and deal harden right away. harden is a free agent after 2009 and if he has a relatively healthy season, he will get 14mm+ per year. even if he doesn't, the yankees will definitely be willing to offer him 14mm annually. the cubs can't afford to pay him that much money (well they could, but they'll already have the 57.4mm committed to SPs in 2010: zambrano - 17.9, peavy - 15.0, dempster - 12.5, lilly - 12.0).

Why would Hendry ever choose to downgrade his rotation? And since when do the Cubs need to act with the budget in mind?

WhiteSoxFan84
11-30-2008, 02:49 PM
Why would Hendry ever choose to downgrade his rotation? And since when do the Cubs need to act with the budget in mind?

They already are acting with a budget in mind. If they weren't, they'd bring back Kerry Wood without any hesitation. They'd also have Rafael Furcal at SS.

And it wouldn't be as big of a downgrade as you think. Sean Marshall can step in as the 5th starter and do very well. Unless he's part of the package for Peavy, then you can keep Marquis and get a very solid season out of him as the # 5.


Question: why are we coming up with ways to make the Cubs better? I'm done! :redneck

areilly
11-30-2008, 05:47 PM
They already are acting with a budget in mind. If they weren't, they'd bring back Kerry Wood without any hesitation. They'd also have Rafael Furcal at SS.

And it wouldn't be as big of a downgrade as you think. Sean Marshall can step in as the 5th starter and do very well. Unless he's part of the package for Peavy, then you can keep Marquis and get a very solid season out of him as the # 5.

Except Harden is the superior pitcher of he and Marquis and also stands to make less in 2009 ($7MM to Marquis' $9.875MM). So either we hope Hendry is as stupid as Veeter says he is, or we assume Marshall is as good a pitcher as Harden - and if the latter is true, why wouldn't Hendry dump Marquis and replace him with the younger, cheaper, left-handed Marshall?

JermaineDye05
11-30-2008, 11:12 PM
Well my friend was saying that he heard there's a deal close.

Bal gets- Felix Pie and a PTBNL

Padres get- Garret Olson (Baltimore), Cedeno, Mitch Atkins, Sean Marshall.

Cubs get- Peavy

Somehow this doesn't seem good enough. I don't see how Garret Olson sweetens the deal for Peavy.

Towers would get drawn and quartered if he made that deal IMO.

btrain929
11-30-2008, 11:14 PM
Well my friend was saying that he heard there's a deal close.

Bal gets- Felix Pie and a PTBNL

Padres get- Garret Olson (Baltimore), Cedeno, Mitch Atkins, Sean Marshall.

Cubs get- Peavy

Somehow this doesn't seem good enough. I don't see how Garret Olson sweetens the deal for Peavy.

Towers would get drawn and quartered if he made that deal IMO.

Well I guess I'm not too worried considering I don't know your source and people "hear" things all the time lol....

But I'd be livid if they got Peavy without giving up Vitters.

guillensdisciple
12-01-2008, 04:41 AM
Well I guess I'm not too worried considering I don't know your source and people "hear" things all the time lol....

But I'd be livid if they got Peavy without giving up Vitters.

If everyone is feeding in to the go cubs go **** like the majority of the baseball world I wouldn't be surprised. Hell, the Cubs got Rich Harden for a pair of shoe laces, so why not Peavy?

4 points
12-01-2008, 06:29 AM
As long as "where he is" isn't on the road. See his home/road splits away from Petco.

As was posted a million times, with the exception of last year, his splits were equally effective at home, and on the road. :angry::angry::angry:

champagne030
12-01-2008, 10:03 AM
Well my friend was saying that he heard there's a deal close.

Bal gets- Felix Pie and a PTBNL



And you should've stopped your friend right there. The Orioles have no use for Pie.

jabrch
12-01-2008, 10:31 AM
If everyone is feeding in to the go cubs go **** like the majority of the baseball world I wouldn't be surprised. Hell, the Cubs got Rich Harden for a pair of shoe laces, so why not Peavy?

If we gave up Poreda for Harden, there would have been people bitching about us acquiring a guy who is never healthy and paying him that much money, while giving up a potential HOFer.

veeter
12-01-2008, 10:58 AM
I agree. I definitely despise the cubs, but Hendry has made many a good move, several of which look quite genious.

I always thought Lilly was a scrub, but he is far out-performing many other highly-paid starters, like Garland, Silva, and others who make a ton more.

They did overpay on Soriano and Marquis, but hey, they wanted to show they were serious about winning so other players would want to come to cubbyville.

His minor deals like Henry Blanco, Reed Johnson, Mark DeRosa, dumping Barrett for Kendall, and others have shown he can be quite resourceful.

It's not his fault the team chokes. In all fairness, he's done what he can, and more to attempt removing a century of futility.Do you think it's at all possible Lilly is out-performing those other guys because he's in the craptastic National League? And his salary is right with those guys you mentioned.

areilly
12-01-2008, 11:24 AM
Do you think it's at all possible Lilly is out-performing those other guys because he's in the craptastic National League? And his salary is right with those guys you mentioned.

Lilly made $9MM last year; Garland made $12MM.

Lilly will make $12MM last year; Silva will make $11MM, and Garland will probably beat both. But what can you do? You pay the guys to beat the teams you play, and Lilly's delivered exactly that for the Cubs.

(Except for last year in the NLDS. Yikes.)

WhiteSoxFan84
12-02-2008, 12:49 AM
Lilly made $9MM last year; Garland made $12MM.

Lilly will make $12MM last year; Silva will make $11MM, and Garland will probably beat both. But what can you do? You pay the guys to beat the teams you play, and Lilly's delivered exactly that for the Cubs.

(Except for last year in the NLDS. Yikes.)

you truly think garland will make >12mm per? i HIGHLY doubt that.

WhiteSoxFan84
12-02-2008, 12:58 AM
Wow, Towers talks and some very interesting quotes in this article (http://www3.signonsandiego.com/stories/2008/dec/01/padres-dont-offer-hoffman-arbitration/?padres).

About why Peavy hasn't been dealt to the Braves yet...
“Atlanta has a club policy that's been in place that no one will have full no-trade protection,” he said. “I don't see them bending the rules for Jake. At this point in time, that's not going to happen unless Jake changes his position on that.”

About why Peavy hasn't been dealt to the Cubs yet...
“With them signing Dempster, it's going to take some creativity on their part financially,” Towers said. “I think there's still a chance with Chicago, but I think it's probably going to be difficult with them as well.”

JermaineDye05
12-02-2008, 01:43 AM
Wow, Towers talks and some very interesting quotes in this article (http://www3.signonsandiego.com/stories/2008/dec/01/padres-dont-offer-hoffman-arbitration/?padres).

About why Peavy hasn't been dealt to the Braves yet...


About why Peavy hasn't been dealt to the Cubs yet...

Get it done, Kenny

The reason half is in teal is because I'm joking but half is also in pink because that's a personal fantasy I've always had for the Sox. Peavy at the top of the rotation.

areilly
12-02-2008, 10:19 AM
you truly think garland will make >12mm per? i HIGHLY doubt that.

Someone will do it. Three years/$39MM isn't out of the question, especially from a desperate enough team with money to burn and a gaping hole in the #3/#4 slot.

guillensdisciple
12-02-2008, 11:32 AM
Can this trade complete itself already, I am tired of the rumors and speculations.

I hope Peavy magically goes to the Texas Rangers... wouldn't that **** everything up?

thomas35forever
12-02-2008, 06:56 PM
Since the Braves are now getting Javy, does this mean Peavy will go to the Cubs now? I know one person who says yes.

veeter
12-02-2008, 07:07 PM
Since the Braves are now getting Javy, does this mean Peavy will go to the Cubs now? I know one person who says yes.Who's that person?

JermaineDye05
12-02-2008, 07:12 PM
Since the Braves are now getting Javy, does this mean Peavy will go to the Cubs now? I know one person who says yes.

The Braves getting Vazquez doesn't give the Cubs good prospects, nor does it make Peavy less than what he already was. So no. Jake Peavy is still a cy young caliber pitcher, and the Cubs still have bad to mediocre talent to offer and still have a huge payroll to deal with. All this deal does is take one team out of the market for him that's all.

areilly
12-02-2008, 08:10 PM
The Braves getting Vazquez doesn't give the Cubs good prospects, nor does it make Peavy less than what he already was. So no. Jake Peavy is still a cy young caliber pitcher, and the Cubs still have bad to mediocre talent to offer and still have a huge payroll to deal with. All this deal does is take one team out of the market for him that's all.

But the team removed from the Peavy sweepstakes was arguably the leading contender - the Cubs' chances, if Peavy is truly shipping out - just greatly improved.

JermaineDye05
12-02-2008, 08:14 PM
But the team removed from the Peavy sweepstakes was arguably the leading contender - the Cubs' chances, if Peavy is truly shipping out - just greatly improved.

That I agree, but the Padres aren't going to bend over backwards for Hendry. The fact still remains that Jake Peavy is a cy young caliber pitcher, and gets a ton of money. The Cubs payroll is ridiculous right now, I believe they have something like 54 million just in their rotation right now. The Cubs won't give up Vitters, after that they have pretty much nothing. I don't see how the Braves getting Vazquez means that Towers will accept Marshall/Cedeno/etc. or why another team would take Felix Pie for a young promising starter.

veeter
12-02-2008, 08:19 PM
That I agree, but the Padres aren't going to bend over backwards for Hendry. The fact still remains that Jake Peavy is a cy young caliber pitcher, and gets a ton of money. The Cubs payroll is ridiculous right now, I believe they have something like 54 million just in their rotation right now. The Cubs won't give up Vitters, after that they have pretty much nothing. I don't see how the Braves getting Vazquez means that Towers will accept Marshall/Cedeno/etc. or why another team would take Felix Pie for a young promising starter.Agreed. If these guys weren't good enough to complete the Brain Roberts fiasco last year, why for Peavy this year? What cracks me up is, Jose Ceda stood between the cubs and Roberts last year. But Jimmy wouldn't budge. This year he trades him straight up for a reliever with diminishing skills.

areilly
12-02-2008, 09:07 PM
That I agree, but the Padres aren't going to bend over backwards for Hendry. The fact still remains that Jake Peavy is a cy young caliber pitcher, and gets a ton of money. The Cubs payroll is ridiculous right now, I believe they have something like 54 million just in their rotation right now. The Cubs won't give up Vitters, after that they have pretty much nothing. I don't see how the Braves getting Vazquez means that Towers will accept Marshall/Cedeno/etc. or why another team would take Felix Pie for a young promising starter.

Agreed. If these guys weren't good enough to complete the Brain Roberts fiasco last year, why for Peavy this year?

Yes, Peavy is a Cy Young-caliber pitcher, but he's useless to a Padres club in fire sale mode. Why should they pay him that much to get another 9 or 10 wins? Why not let a kid or journeyman get the same for a fraction of the cost?

At the same time, Hendry knows his window to win is closing quickly. Yes, their payroll is insane but the Cubs have the money, and if Peavy wouldn't be a justifiable place to increase payroll I don't know what would be. I'm not saying it's a guarantee Peavy goes to the Cubs, but I am saying the odds of it just increased. There is now one less buyer, and Peavy has at least some control over where he goes thanks to that NTC.

Think of it like this: if veeter and I were the two most serious bidders on a sweet car JD05 bought but now couldn't rationalize holding on to, and suddenly veeter backed out, who would you put the smart money on as the next owner of that car?

JermaineDye05
12-08-2008, 05:59 PM
Per BBTN

Towers gives the Cubs an ultimatum. If they can't get a deal done by the end of the winter meetings, he's pulling him back and he'll be a Padre next season.

veeter
12-08-2008, 06:02 PM
Per BBTN

Towers gives the Cubs an ultimatum. If they can't get a deal done by the end of the winter meetings, he's pulling him back and he'll be a Padre next season.He'll be a Padre.

WhiteSoxFan84
12-08-2008, 06:03 PM
Per BBTN

Towers gives the Cubs an ultimatum. If they can't get a deal done by the end of the winter meetings, he's pulling him back and he'll be a Padre next season.

yeh i read that also.
and per bruce levine, the cubs first have to get rid of marquis before they can get peavy. they also may have to get rid of marquis before they get their left-handed stick.
so i guess their priorities are now: 1) get rid of marquis, 2) get a left-handed stick (possibly milton bradley) and 3) try to trade for peavy.

JermaineDye05
12-08-2008, 06:03 PM
He'll be a Padre.

That's what I've been assuming the whole time. I can't see Towers taking a Cubs package and it doesn't seem like any other teams want to risk it cause no one knows if Peavy is entirely healthy. If Peavy will be traded it won't be until mid season next year or next offseason.

1908<2005
12-08-2008, 10:16 PM
http://hotstove.mlblogs.com/
Rut Roh.

It's Time
12-08-2008, 11:13 PM
****!! The Peavy to the Cubs deal is going to get done by tomorrow?? ****!!!

It's Time
12-08-2008, 11:16 PM
Ugh! Derosa to the Phillies in some type of blockbuster 4 team deal is what's being tossed around.

Bill Naharodny
12-08-2008, 11:20 PM
Ugh! Derosa to the Phillies in some type of blockbuster 4 team deal is what's being tossed around.

If that happens, I sure hope that the Cubs can find a guy as "strong" as DeRosa. Maybe Soto can provide some help on that one.

It's Time
12-08-2008, 11:22 PM
If that happens, I sure hope that the Cubs can find a guy as "strong" as DeRosa. Maybe Soto can provide some help on that one.

:cool: LOL!

Check this **** out.

Towers told San Diego reporters that nothing would happen late tonight, but tomorrow could be a different matter. This trade could involve as many as four teams, and pitcher Jason Marquis has emerged as the wild card.

The San Diego Union-Tribune reports that the Padres have looked into getting Mark DeRosa from the Cubs to give to the Phillies in a Jake Peavy deal.
That's an interesting idea. DeRosa would start at second base if Chase Utley misses the start of the year and play left field otherwise. The Cubs can afford to give him up since they have Mike Fontenot to play second base. Still, as good as he was last year, they would almost certainly prefer to hold on to him.
Source: San Diego Union-Tribune

MHOUSE
12-08-2008, 11:25 PM
This is just getting so absurd. 4 teams now? You almost never see MLB trades involving more than 2 teams, maybe 3 once in a great while. These things never seem to work out. I also read earlier that Towers was saying if the Peavy thing doesn't happen by the end of the week/ish he's going to announce him as their opening day starter and ace. Who knows what is happening. Marquis and DeRosa are nice players, but can they really fetch enough prospects from Philly or whoever to nab Peavy? I don't know...

veeter
12-08-2008, 11:39 PM
Peavy going to locker next to Brian Roberts.

JermaineDye05
12-08-2008, 11:45 PM
If Peavy goes to the Cubs, that will ruin my day tomorrow. Please don't do it, how many teams can help the Cubs out seriously?

btrain929
12-08-2008, 11:48 PM
If Peavy goes to the Cubs, that will ruin my day tomorrow. Please don't do it, how many teams can help the Cubs out seriously?

I was thinking the same thing: why are teams so eager to help out the Cubs? It doesn't look like these other teams are getting that good of players back, either....:scratch:

Bill Naharodny
12-08-2008, 11:50 PM
I was thinking the same thing: why are teams so eager to help out the Cubs? It doesn't look like these other teams are getting that good of players back, either....:scratch:

Wait, I thought that Ronny Cedeno and Michael Wuertz went into the Hall of Fame today.

Oh that's right. They're about as close as Ron Santo.

oeo
12-08-2008, 11:50 PM
If Peavy goes to the Cubs, that will ruin my day tomorrow. Please don't do it, how many teams can help the Cubs out seriously?

No one has helped them do anything. :lol:

If championships were won on paper, the Cubs would have been in the World Series in 2008.

Anyway...four team deals rarely happen. Too many people have to be happy in order for it to go down. The probability of it going through is small.

LoveYourSuit
12-08-2008, 11:50 PM
Cubs get to dump Marquis and get Peavy in the process? :o:

btrain929
12-08-2008, 11:51 PM
Wait, I thought that Ronny Cedeno and Michael Wuertz went into the Hall of Fame today.

http://www.creepygif.com/images/full/402.gif

guillensdisciple
12-08-2008, 11:51 PM
If Peavy goes to the Cubs, that will ruin my day tomorrow. Please don't do it, how many teams can help the Cubs out seriously?

No one is trying to help the Cubs, they know what happens when anyone goes over there.

Probably will have a grand season, and then, while everyone predicts World series, become an epic bust with the rest of his teammates.


Another one bites the dust....

btrain929
12-08-2008, 11:52 PM
Cubs get to dump Marquis and get Peavy in the process? :o:

It doesn't make sense. Marquis actually makes more than Peavy this year (Peavy = 8MIL, Marquis = 9.8MIL). Next year Peavy's salary shoots up to 15MIL, but I still don't see why anyone would take on Marquis.

guillensdisciple
12-08-2008, 11:52 PM
Cubs get to dump Marquis and get Peavy in the process? :o:

That is pretty irritaing, the Sox should have just waited and dealt Javy in this trade.

The Padres would have given us their first baseman and Peavy for Javy.

LoveYourSuit
12-08-2008, 11:56 PM
It doesn't make sense. Marquis actually makes more than Peavy this year (Peavy = 8MIL, Marquis = 9.8MIL). Next year Peavy's salary shoots up to 15MIL, but I still don't see why anyone would take on Marquis.


Wach us be the 4th team.... we need to get our hands on Marquis

Bill Naharodny
12-08-2008, 11:56 PM
That is pretty irritaing, the Sox should have just waited and dealt Javy in this trade.

The Padres would have given us their first baseman and Peavy for Javy.

Nah, Kenny Williams doesn't have the strange Jedi-like qualities of Jim Hendry. See below:

Kevin Towers: I'll take Josh Vitters.

Jim Hendry: That's not the droid you're looking for.

Kevin Towers: That's not the droid I'm looking for. I'll take Angel Guzman.

whitesox901
12-09-2008, 12:00 AM
Wach us be the 4th team.... we need to get our hands on Marquis

I know its teal...but still :puking:

LoveYourSuit
12-09-2008, 12:01 AM
Because of the "Plethora" of young live arms we have picked up the last 2 years, we don't need a Jake Peavy.

:rolleyes:

oeo
12-09-2008, 12:04 AM
Because of the "Plethora" of young live arms we have picked up the last 2 years, we don't need a Jake Peavy.

:rolleyes:

Considering Jake Peavy wouldn't approve a trade here, your point is moot.

It's Time
12-09-2008, 12:04 AM
Padres GM Kevin Towers said there's essentially a Jake Peavy deal in place if the Cubs are willing to sign off on it.
"There's a package there that will satisfy us ... there's a deal in the way of names," said Towers, who carefully stated that no deal, even in principle, has been reached. Towers has been in contact with the Phillies and Orioles and may have agreements with both of them in what would be a three- or four-team Peavy deal. Towers did say there might be some "haggling" over the players the Padres would get in return from the Cubs. If the Orioles are involved, it's very likely that they'd get Felix Pie from the Cubs and send Garrett Olson to San Diego. Dec. 8 - 10:02 pm et
Source: Hot Stove Blog

JermaineDye05
12-09-2008, 12:04 AM
No one has helped them do anything. :lol:

If championships were won on paper, the Cubs would have been in the World Series in 2008.

Anyway...four team deals rarely happen. Too many people have to be happy in order for it to go down. The probability of it going through is small.

It just seems of late, they get a ridiculous discount in trades. i.e. Harden. Right now the only appealing name I've heard is Vitters and that's it. I don't see why NL teams would give a team that won 97 games last year Jake Peavy without making them pay up the ass. Derosa/Marquis/Vitters and a couple lumps of **** shouldn't cut it for Jake Peavy.

It's Time
12-09-2008, 12:05 AM
Kevin Towers, you're a dope. KW, swoop in here and steal Peavy. :cool:

oeo
12-09-2008, 12:06 AM
I really question what any of those teams would want with Marquis. Maybe the Phillies, they like bad starters. I think it's more likely that things are hung up because Hendry needs to cut some salary (Marquis) before he can follow through with this deal.

Kevin Towers, you're a dope. KW, swoop in here and steal Peavy. :cool:

Peavy would not approve it. Yes, both teams are in Chicago, but the Cubs are in the NL, and Peavy wants to stay in the NL.

LoveYourSuit
12-09-2008, 12:08 AM
Considering Jake Peavy wouldn't approve a trade here, your point is moot.


I didn't ask him yet... I will let you know.

JermaineDye05
12-09-2008, 12:10 AM
Padres GM Kevin Towers said there's essentially a Jake Peavy deal in place if the Cubs are willing to sign off on it.
"There's a package there that will satisfy us ... there's a deal in the way of names," said Towers, who carefully stated that no deal, even in principle, has been reached. Towers has been in contact with the Phillies and Orioles and may have agreements with both of them in what would be a three- or four-team Peavy deal. Towers did say there might be some "haggling" over the players the Padres would get in return from the Cubs. If the Orioles are involved, it's very likely that they'd get Felix Pie from the Cubs and send Garrett Olson to San Diego. Dec. 8 - 10:02 pm et
Source: Hot Stove Blog

If Felix Pie gets them Garret Olson, then we should take JD off the table and trade BA for Bailey straight up. That's essentially the same thing. Ugh this is pissing me off, just keep Peavy in San Diego Towers. I've vented enough, I need to get back to studying for finals.

Craig Grebeck
12-09-2008, 12:12 AM
If Felix Pie gets them Garret Olson, then we should take JD off the table and trade BA for Bailey straight up. That's essentially the same thing. Ugh this is pissing me off, just keep Peavy in San Diego Towers. I've vented enough, I need to get back to studying for finals.
Surely you must be joking.

LoveYourSuit
12-09-2008, 12:14 AM
Surely you must be joking.

All he is saying is that Felix Pie sucks as much as Anderson.

JermaineDye05
12-09-2008, 12:19 AM
Surely you must be joking.

Not really, Brian Anderson and Felix Pie are basically the same player with a 3 year age difference. Great defenders but can't hit a lick, Pie (.223 career avg), BA (.221 career avg). Garrett Olson is a highly touted pitching prospect who hasn't done much in the majors (6.87 career ERA), Bailey a former first rounder who hasn't done anything (6.72 career ERA). I'm joking that the sox should make that offer if it happens. I'm just trying to make the point that the Cubs getting Garrett Olson for Felix Pie is bull**** that's all.

Craig Grebeck
12-09-2008, 12:19 AM
All he is saying is that Felix Pie sucks as much as Anderson.
And that Bailey and Olson are somehow comparable? At least Pie is younger, and still has a much better chance of panning out than Anderson.

Craig Grebeck
12-09-2008, 12:20 AM
Not really, Brian Anderson and Felix Pie are basically the same player with a 3 year age difference. Great defenders but can't hit a lick, Pie (.223 career avg), BA (.221 career avg). Garrett Olson is a highly touted pitching prospect who hasn't done much in the majors (6.87 career ERA), Bailey a former first rounder who hasn't done anything (6.72 career ERA). I'm joking that the sox should make that offer if it happens. I'm just trying to make the point that the Cubs getting Garrett Olson for Felix Pie is bull**** that's all.
Olson's not very highly touted at all.

soltrain21
12-09-2008, 12:29 AM
I don't get why the Phillies would want any part in giving the Cubs a good pitcher.

It's Time
12-09-2008, 12:29 AM
Ugh!

http://scott-miller.blogs.sportsline.com/mcc/blogs/entry/6270335/12173484

Tragg
12-09-2008, 12:30 AM
If the Sox could get him on the cheap, I'd grab Pie.

JermaineDye05
12-09-2008, 12:31 AM
Olson's not very highly touted at all.

Okay, then why the hell should he be netting Jake Peavy?

soltrain21
12-09-2008, 12:32 AM
Wow. The Cubs are going to give up a prospect and complete **** for Peavy.

The Padres turned down the Braves offer for THIS?

WhiteSoxFan84
12-09-2008, 12:35 AM
And that Bailey and Olson are somehow comparable? At least Pie is younger, and still has a much better chance of panning out than Anderson.

You are right about Olson, he's not looked at as anything special.
But I question you about this statement. Pie has a lot more pressure on him (because of the team he plays for and because he came up after Corey Patterson turned out to be a bust) to pan out while Brian Anderson still hasn't been given a chance and while there is pressure on him to become something, he has a better chance of doing it.

And not just because of the pressure, I also think that pie's success relies mainly on speed and getting on-base whereas brian anderson can be a low obp guy yet still become successful because of his decent pop, above average speed, and very good defensive abilities. pie also has similar defense but he has 0 power. he is a speed guy and if he's not getting on-base, he's meaningless.

i think we can all agree that there's a better probability that a type of player like BA would succeed than one like pie.

It's Time
12-09-2008, 12:38 AM
I just can't believe that the Padres are basically handing the Cubs one of the top 5 pitchers in Baseball for a good prospect. It's beyond ridiculous.

WhiteSoxFan84
12-09-2008, 12:39 AM
Wow. The Cubs are going to give up a prospect and complete **** for Peavy.

The Padres turned down the Braves offer for THIS?

from what ive read, the phillies will give up one or two of their top prospects to the padres but then they'd grab mark derosa from the cubs. the padres also would probably get marshall, vitters, and wuertz.

that is A LOT for peavy.
if the cubs lose derosa, marshall, and vitters, i dont think it's a steal by any stretch of the imagination.

also, i read that marquis has to be dealt first before peavy is acquired. maybe marquis goes to the phillies w/ derosa? marquis would replace moyer's spot in the rotation and the cubs would have to eat a big part of his contract.

kittle42
12-09-2008, 01:11 AM
from what ive read, the phillies will give up one or two of their top prospects to the padres but then they'd grab mark derosa from the cubs. the padres also would probably get marshall, vitters, and wuertz.

that is A LOT for peavy.
if the cubs lose derosa, marshall, and vitters, i dont think it's a steal by any stretch of the imagination.

also, i read that marquis has to be dealt first before peavy is acquired. maybe marquis goes to the phillies w/ derosa? marquis would replace moyer's spot in the rotation and the cubs would have to eat a big part of his contract.

If that's the case, it is quite a bit to give up, but it automatically gives the Cubs the best rotation in baseball by far.

WhiteSoxFan84
12-09-2008, 01:22 AM
If that's the case, it is quite a bit to give up, but it automatically gives the Cubs the best rotation in baseball by far.

yes, "the best collection of five alive" is the corny nickname im hearing from northsiders lol
but that lineup would now not only be lacking a left-handed bat and a leadoff man, but they'd also lose one of their most consistent sticks (if not THE most consistent) from 2008.

soriano/fontenot/lee/ramirez/soto/new RF/fukudome or johnson/theriot?

and that's assuming they go out and get a RFer after the deal, that lineup doesn't scare me much at all.

kittle42
12-09-2008, 01:29 AM
yes, "the best collection of five alive" is the corny nickname im hearing from northsiders lol
but that lineup would now not only be lacking a left-handed bat and a leadoff man, but they'd also lose one of their most consistent sticks (if not THE most consistent) from 2008.

soriano/fontenot/lee/ramirez/soto/new RF/fukudome or johnson/theriot?

and that's assuming they go out and get a RFer after the deal, that lineup doesn't scare me much at all.

They can mash and pitch all season, then get to the playoffs and lay goose eggs. It's the latest fad from the Cubs!

Taliesinrk
12-09-2008, 01:44 AM
yes, "the best collection of five alive" is the corny nickname im hearing from northsiders lol
but that lineup would now not only be lacking a left-handed bat and a leadoff man, but they'd also lose one of their most consistent sticks (if not THE most consistent) from 2008.

soriano/fontenot/lee/ramirez/soto/new RF/fukudome or johnson/theriot?

and that's assuming they go out and get a RFer after the deal, that lineup doesn't scare me much at all.

It's not a bunch of AAAA players either. Let's face it, Lee/Ramirez/Soto (assuming he continues what he put up last year), isn't something to sneeze at. And if soriano would ever pull his head out of his ass, it'd be a decent line-up.

WhiteSoxFan84
12-09-2008, 02:18 AM
It's not a bunch of AAAA players either. Let's face it, Lee/Ramirez/Soto (assuming he continues what he put up last year), isn't something to sneeze at. And if soriano would ever pull his head out of his ass, it'd be a decent line-up.

Lee is falling apart. Soto, Theriot, and Johnson have a lot to prove in 2009 after very solid performances in 2008. Ramirez will be their best-hitter and SHOULD bat 3rd but Lou won't move him up just yet.

I'm not really impressed. This lineup will score A LOT of runs off of average to bad pitchers. They will score some runs against good to very good pitchers. Heck they'll even score some runs off of the games elite pitchers, but in the postseason, when everyone turns its up, this lineup won't produce enough to help that potentially stellar rotation win 11 games.

oh and by the way, no one has said a word about their bullpen. a lot of pressure will be on marmol to step it up as either the sole setup man or as the closer. gregg already has question marks, now what if marmol fails? this team has more holes than we are being led to believe.

veeter
12-09-2008, 07:19 AM
I just can't believe that the Padres are basically handing the Cubs one of the top 5 pitchers in Baseball for a good prospect. It's beyond ridiculous.And since this has all been done out in the open, it will be yet another huge victory for the cubs and Hendry. Who, if my calculations are correct, have won the last three off-season championships. The root of this problem is the full no-trade clause. It has screwed the Padres to no end. It has helped the cubs and Hendry to no end. Hendry has the easiest GM job in baseball. Hell, now Cy Young pitchers are falling in his large lap. This is why I hate them so much. This is why when they lose, I am very happy.

ndgt10
12-09-2008, 09:39 AM
Wow, if the Cubs get Peavy no team will be scoring more than 3 runs off all their starters this year. What a great move that would be for the Cubs. It would virtually guarantee them the NL Central and I highly doubt they will lay another egg in the playoffs again. Just give those SOBs the pennant already.

Hendry is an absolute genius/bull****ter/hypnotist to get these other GMs to take these crap deals for all stars. Unfreakingbelivable.

russ99
12-09-2008, 09:54 AM
Wow, if the Cubs get Peavy no team will be scoring more than 3 runs off all their starters this year. What a great move that would be for the Cubs. It would virtually guarantee them the NL Central and I highly doubt they will lay another egg in the playoffs again. Just give those SOBs the pennant already.

Hendry is an absolute genius/bull****ter/hypnotist to get these other GMs to take these crap deals for all stars. Unfreakingbelivable.

Ain't happened yet. Seems to me Towers is putting the Cubs feet to the fire to get this done by Thursday, which should make Hendry very suspicious.

I think it's 50-50 this gets done and still think there's a decent chance he goes to the Dodgers (or Braves if they can't land Burnett) after the meetings are over.

Remember that if the Cubs somehow land Peavy, that guarantees them nothing. They'd have a better chance at winning the division but that's it.

Also, since they'd be dealing Marquis and Marshall, there goes their starter safety net, and they'd be plugging in kids once (not if) Harden gets hurt, and who's to say Lilly and Zambrano go a full season considering their injury history and obscene workload. So while they'd have a formidable rotation on paper, this could end up biting the Cubs in the end, even if it happens.

Rockabilly
12-09-2008, 09:57 AM
it would be an awesome move for the Cubs if they get Peavy...

jabrch
12-09-2008, 10:17 AM
The Padres turned down the Braves offer for THIS?

THey did not turn down the Braves offer. Peavey refused to go to Atlanta without a full NTC and the Braves refused to not give him the NTC. Atlanta and SD agreed to a deal - Jake refused to waive his NTC.

areilly
12-09-2008, 10:17 AM
This is just getting so absurd. 4 teams now? You almost never see MLB trades involving more than 2 teams, maybe 3 once in a great while.

When was the last 4-team trade? I want to say it was the 2004 Montreal/Boston/Cubs/Twins deal that sealed the World Series for the Red Sox, but was that it?

areilly
12-09-2008, 10:18 AM
I just can't believe that the Padres are basically handing the Cubs one of the top 5 pitchers in Baseball for a good prospect. It's beyond ridiculous.

Money talks and bull**** walks, as the saying goes.

Domeshot17
12-09-2008, 10:25 AM
Ain't happened yet. Seems to me Towers is putting the Cubs feet to the fire to get this done by Thursday, which should make Hendry very suspicious.

I think it's 50-50 this gets done and still think there's a decent chance he goes to the Dodgers (or Braves if they can't land Burnett) after the meetings are over.

Remember that if the Cubs somehow land Peavy, that guarantees them nothing. They'd have a better chance at winning the division but that's it.

Also, since they'd be dealing Marquis and Marshall, there goes their starter safety net, and they'd be plugging in kids once (not if) Harden gets hurt, and who's to say Lilly and Zambrano go a full season considering their injury history and obscene workload. So while they'd have a formidable rotation on paper, this could end up biting the Cubs in the end, even if it happens.

I don't know man, I get what you are saying, but don't pretend the Cubs are better of with Marshall and Marquis then Peavy.

They will still also have Rich Hill and a few others who can start if they are in a pinch

OmarLittle
12-09-2008, 10:35 AM
Peavy
Harden
Zambrano
Dempster
Lilly

That is nasty rotation.

ChiSoxFan81
12-09-2008, 10:46 AM
Peavy
Harden
Zambrano
Dempster
Lilly

That is nasty rotation.

On paper. Not so much on grass.

1917
12-09-2008, 10:53 AM
Peavy
Harden
Zambrano
Dempster
Lilly

That is nasty rotation.

It is a nasty rotation, but we had a nasty rotation in 06 and that was good enough for 3rd place...but Harden and Z are injury prone, Dempster had an extremly unpredictable break out year that will be hard to repeat, Lily is normally a .500 pitcher, then you got Peavy....but if all of them click, I don't see how they don't win 100 games.

Rocky Soprano
12-09-2008, 10:56 AM
but if all of them click, I don't see how they don't win 100 games.

Because they are the Cubs.

soltrain21
12-09-2008, 10:56 AM
On paper. Not so much on grass.


Haha. Okay.

Domeshot17
12-09-2008, 11:05 AM
On paper. Not so much on grass.

come on, I hate the cubs as much as anyone, but there is not one rotation in all of baseball I would take over Peavy Zambrano Harden Lilly and Dempster. If you want to make one knock, its the expense for it, but take that into the playoffs, and you have 3 guys who could start and dominate a game 1, and possibly 4 if Dempster shows he isn't a flash in the pan. I don't think he is as good as he was last year, but part of that is Cubs Hatred. He has as much of a chance to repeat as Floyd does for us.

esbrechtel
12-09-2008, 11:09 AM
Floyd and Dempster are in a little different situations...Floyd is alot younger...

kittle42
12-09-2008, 11:13 AM
come on, I hate the cubs as much as anyone, but there is not one rotation in all of baseball I would take over Peavy Zambrano Harden Lilly and Dempster. If you want to make one knock, its the expense for it, but take that into the playoffs, and you have 3 guys who could start and dominate a game 1, and possibly 4 if Dempster shows he isn't a flash in the pan. I don't think he is as good as he was last year, but part of that is Cubs Hatred. He has as much of a chance to repeat as Floyd does for us.

I agree. I knew someone would rip their rotation somehow. It would be not only the best currently, but the best in several years.

ChiSoxFan81
12-09-2008, 11:13 AM
come on, I hate the cubs as much as anyone, but there is not one rotation in all of baseball I would take over Peavy Zambrano Harden Lilly and Dempster. If you want to make one knock, its the expense for it, but take that into the playoffs, and you have 3 guys who could start and dominate a game 1, and possibly 4 if Dempster shows he isn't a flash in the pan. I don't think he is as good as he was last year, but part of that is Cubs Hatred. He has as much of a chance to repeat as Floyd does for us.

Does it have the potential to be a dominant rotation? Yes. Those are some names. However, they all have to be effective and remain injury free for the majority of the season. Harden is injury prone. Peavy will likely get lit up a Wrigley. Dempster had a career year and isn't likely to repeat his performance. Zambrano will give you what he always does if he can refrain from cramping up and punching things, and Lilly is a .500 pitcher.

However, one thing you can always bank on in baseball is that what looks good on paper doesn't necessarily translate on the field. See the '06 Sox or '08 Tigers for recent examples.

OmarLittle
12-09-2008, 11:27 AM
Ugh. Looking more and more like he is going to the Cubs.

http://blogs.chicagosports.chicagotribune.com/sports_hardball/2008/12/cubs-close-to-a.html

I don't get it Peavy wants to go to Chicago, why does it matter if its in the NL or AL. I would be ecstatic if we could somehow can him.

soltrain21
12-09-2008, 11:30 AM
Ugh. Looking more and more like he is going to the Cubs.

http://blogs.chicagosports.chicagotribune.com/sports_hardball/2008/12/cubs-close-to-a.html

I don't get it Peavy wants to go to Chicago, why does it matter if its in the NL or AL. I would be ecstatic if we could somehow can him.

It has never been said that we even attempted to talk about it with the Padres.

OmarLittle
12-09-2008, 11:30 AM
Does it have the potential to be a dominant rotation? Yes. Those are some names. However, they all have to be effective and remain injury free for the majority of the season. Harden is injury prone. Peavy will likely get lit up a Wrigley. Dempster had a career year and isn't likely to repeat his performance. Zambrano will give you what he always does if he can refrain from cramping up and punching things, and Lilly is a .500 pitcher.

However, one thing you can always bank on in baseball is that what looks good on paper doesn't necessarily translate on the field. See the '06 Sox or '08 Tigers for recent examples.

I agree with you for the most part. Specifically Harden and Dempster.

Not sure why Peavy will get lit up at Wrigley though. Care to explain that part?

And you keep referring to Lilly as a .500 pitcher. You shouldn't use Wins to evaluate a starting pitcher. Even if you want to use Wins to evaluate him, Lilly's winning percentage as a Cub is .653

jonred
12-09-2008, 11:40 AM
Does it have the potential to be a dominant rotation? Yes. Those are some names. However, they all have to be effective and remain injury free for the majority of the season. Harden is injury prone. Peavy will likely get lit up a Wrigley. Dempster had a career year and isn't likely to repeat his performance. Zambrano will give you what he always does if he can refrain from cramping up and punching things, and Lilly is a .500 pitcher.

However, one thing you can always bank on in baseball is that what looks good on paper doesn't necessarily translate on the field. See the '06 Sox or '08 Tigers for recent examples.

I think you might be shortchanging Lilly a bit...I'm not a math major but a 32-17 record the past two seasons isn't close to .500.

kittle42
12-09-2008, 11:43 AM
Not sure why Peavy will get lit up at Wrigley though. Care to explain that part?

Really. He's 1-1 with a 3.68 ERA, 2 HRs allowed and 23 Ks in 22 IP at Wrigley in 4 games in his career. Yeah, he's got such a track record of getting torched there.

areilly
12-09-2008, 11:43 AM
On paper. Not so much on grass.

All five of them did just fine on grass last year.

Yes, you have to play the games to win them, that's why they play the games/long season/anything can happen/grinder/grit/2005/four touchdowns in a single game, but any smart person would take that rotation over anyone else's - even the Sabathia/Lowe/Burnett/Wang cabal the Yankees are trying to assemble.

kittle42
12-09-2008, 11:45 AM
All five of them did just fine on grass last year.

Yes, you have to play the games to win them, that's why they play the games/long season/anything can happen/grinder/grit/2005/four touchdowns in a single game, but any smart person would take that rotation over anyone else's - even the Sabathia/Lowe/Burnett/Wang cabal the Yankees are trying to assemble.

And if it wasn't the Cubs we were talking about, everyone would admit it.

Tragg
12-09-2008, 12:00 PM
Basically they get Peavy for Marquis, Pie and DeRosa?

soltrain21
12-09-2008, 12:04 PM
Basically they get Peavy for Marquis, Pie and DeRosa?

I think Vitters, too.

JermaineDye05
12-09-2008, 12:10 PM
I think Vitters, too.

So you have a #1 prospect, a **** hole of a pitcher, an aging infielder who just had a career year and will probably be a bench guy when Utley returns, and a ****ing 4th outfielder for arguably the best RH pitcher in the game right now?

What the **** is going on with baseball?

OmarLittle
12-09-2008, 12:13 PM
So you have a #1 prospect, a **** hole of a pitcher, an aging infielder who just had a career year and will probably be a bench guy when Utley returns, and a ****ing 4th outfielder for arguably the best RH pitcher in the game right now?

What the **** is going on with baseball?

You need to calm down.

The fact is Peavy has the Padres by the balls. He has a no trade clause, they need to cut payroll and Peavy only wants to go to the Cubs.

It's Time
12-09-2008, 12:14 PM
Vitters is the centerpiece of the deal, which tells me two things.

1) The Cubs are going for broke and are COMPLETELY depleting a once dominant farm system.

2) If they don't win in the next few years and they continue to draft low because they are winning division titles, they are going to be up a creek because they have depleted the farm by making these trades.

Great trade but they had better win it soon.

Lip Man 1
12-09-2008, 12:16 PM
Jermaine:

It's called "if you are willing to spend you can get anything and anybody you want."

San Diego is in a payroll dumping mode. The Cubs aren't worried about the future or the financial implications so they are able to pull it off because they are willing to take on his salary.

Honestly, I envy them for that attitude.

However this is not over. Ken Rosenthal reported yesterday on Comcast Sports Night that the Phillies have now entered this derby. He says the Cubs are not the only suitor.

Lip

doublem23
12-09-2008, 12:16 PM
I look forward to Jake Peavy's choke jobs this October.

soltrain21
12-09-2008, 12:17 PM
Jermaine:

It's called "if you are willing to spend you can get anything and anybody you want."

San Diego is in a payroll dumping mode. The Cubs aren't worried about the future or the financial implications so they are able to pull it off because they are willing to take on his salary.

Honestly, I envy them for that attitude.

However this is not over. Ken Rosenthal reported yesterday on Comcast Sports Night that the Phillies have now entered this derby. He says the Cubs are not the only suitor.

Lip

Cmon, Lip. I think we've seen that throwing money at every player is not the winning baseball model anymore.

doublem23
12-09-2008, 12:17 PM
However this is not over. Ken Rosenthal reported yesterday on Comcast Sports Night that the Phillies have now entered this derby. He says the Cubs are not the only suitor.

The Phillies entered as a 3rd team to help facilitate the deal, since the Cubs probably can't make a package San Diego would want. Jake Peavy has a complete NTC and I don't believe he was willing to wave it for the Phillies.

Everyone in baseball now knows its Cubs or nothin'.

WhiteSoxFan84
12-09-2008, 01:16 PM
This is odd, Ken Rosenthal is now reporting (http://msn.foxsports.com/mlb/story/8916168/LIVE:-Tuesday-updates-from-winter-meetings) that the Cubs are actually downplaying the Peavy rumors and that the Cubs may have to wait until the new owner is announced before any deal goes down.

Thanks to mlbtraderumors.com who are on top of these Winter Meetings like no other.

oeo
12-09-2008, 01:20 PM
This is odd, Ken Rosenthal is now reporting (http://msn.foxsports.com/mlb/story/8916168/LIVE:-Tuesday-updates-from-winter-meetings) that the Cubs are actually downplaying the Peavy rumors and that the Cubs may have to wait until the new owner is announced before any deal goes down.

"Spend what you want."

Lip

chisoxmike
12-09-2008, 01:21 PM
This is odd, Ken Rosenthal is now reporting (http://msn.foxsports.com/mlb/story/8916168/LIVE:-Tuesday-updates-from-winter-meetings) that the Cubs are actually downplaying the Peavy rumors and that the Cubs may have to wait until the new owner is announced before any deal goes down.

Thanks to mlbtraderumors.com who are on top of these Winter Meetings like no other.

mlbtraderumors probably as a RSS feed from Rosenthal's LIVE update column on foxsports.com.

mlbtraderumors just collects random **** and posts it in blog. Kind of what many WSI posters do in What's The Score..

Demafrost
12-09-2008, 01:22 PM
Ugh. Looking more and more like he is going to the Cubs.

http://blogs.chicagosports.chicagotribune.com/sports_hardball/2008/12/cubs-close-to-a.html

I don't get it Peavy wants to go to Chicago, why does it matter if its in the NL or AL. I would be ecstatic if we could somehow can him.

Man likes to hit. All 5 teams that he said he would waive his NTC to go to were in the NL, and there really the only correlation that the 5 teams have other then the fact that they have the chance to be competitive. I think the 5 teams were Atlanta, Chicago Cubs, LA Dodgers, Houston, St. Louis.

WhiteSoxFan84
12-09-2008, 01:25 PM
Man likes to hit. All 5 teams that he said he would waive his NTC to go to were in the NL, and there really the only correlation that the 5 teams have other then the fact that they have the chance to be competitive. I think the 5 teams were Atlanta, Chicago Cubs, LA Dodgers, Houston, St. Louis.

It could be that or it could be that he knows that pitchers in the NL have to face one less capable hitter and that his ERA would be in the 4's if he were in the AL compared to the mid-3's in the NL.


mlbtraderumors probably as a RSS feed from Rosenthal's LIVE update column on foxsports.com.

mlbtraderumors just collects random **** and posts it in blog. Kind of what many WSI posters do in What's The Score..

that maybe true, but they put everything together on one site and update as soon as stories break. just giving props where they're deserved.

russ99
12-09-2008, 01:29 PM
It could be that or it could be that he knows that pitchers in the NL have to face one less capable hitter and that his ERA would be in the 4's if he were in the AL compared to the mid-3's in the NL.

that maybe true, but they put everything together on one site and update as soon as stories break. just giving props where they're deserved.

Well, I think MLB TR has more trash than actual reporting, but it's fun to go there, especially when nothing is seemingly going on. At least it's some new info to read, true or not...

Some of the idiotic posts there make me really appreciate the intelligence of the typical WSI member. :D:

Lip Man 1
12-09-2008, 01:39 PM
Soltrain:

I agree with you, it's not...however it does enable you to acquire talent, stockpile it and if needed to shoreup areas of need or if players get injured and so forth.

Let's put it this way, it's no coincidence that every year it seems the Yankees and Red Sox (to use two examples) seem to get anybody and everybody at the trade deadline to help them down the stretch. They aren't able to do that because they talk better then say the Pirates.

Lip

Lip Man 1
12-09-2008, 01:41 PM
OEO:

It's a rumor right? Let's wait and see how it turns out before making any surefire statements or trying to make fun of others statements shall we?

I'm willing to wager if he goes anywhere he'll go to the Cubs...care to take me up on it?

Lip

Lip Man 1
12-09-2008, 01:42 PM
Also OEO Hendry was quoted directly on Comast Sports Chicago yesterday as stating the Tribune bankruptcy issues will have no bearing on what the team is trying to do and he also added that new ownership will be in place in a few months and they are going to continue to try to improve the team.

Take it for whatever that may be worth to you.

Lip

soltrain21
12-09-2008, 01:43 PM
Soltrain:

I agree with you, it's not...however it does enable you to acquire talent, stockpile it and if needed to shoreup areas of need or if players get injured and so forth.

Let's put it this way, it's no coincidence that every year it seems the Yankees and Red Sox (to use two examples) seem to get anybody and everybody at the trade deadline to help them down the stretch. They aren't able to do that because they talk better then say the Pirates.

Lip

That is a fair point.


And Peavy's ERA would not be in the 4s in the AL.

kittle42
12-09-2008, 01:45 PM
his ERA would be in the 4's if he were in the AL compared to the mid-3's in the NL.

No, it wouldn't.

SoxNation05
12-09-2008, 01:51 PM
It could be that or it could be that he knows that pitchers in the NL have to face one less capable hitter and that his ERA would be in the 4's if he were in the AL compared to the mid-3's in the NL.




that maybe true, but they put everything together on one site and update as soon as stories break. just giving props where they're deserved.
Wrong!

WhiteSoxFan84
12-09-2008, 01:54 PM
No, it wouldn't.

Wrong!


We'll agree to disagree. But I'm right :redneck

SoxNation05
12-09-2008, 01:57 PM
We'll agree to disagree. But I'm right :redneck
That's easier for you to say because you could never be proved wrong because of refusal to be traded to the AL.

doublem23
12-09-2008, 02:04 PM
And Peavy's ERA would not be in the 4s in the AL.

No, it wouldn't.

Wrong!

We'll agree to disagree. But I'm right :redneck

That's easier for you to say because you could never be proved wrong because of refusal to be traded to the AL.

FWIW, CC Sabathia and Rich Harden pitched almost an identical amount of innings in the AL and NL last year, and their combined ERAs dropped by over 1.50 in the NL as compared to the AL.

No stretch to think Peavy's ERA wouldn't climb into the 4's in the American League, unless you prefer to live in Fantasy World were the NL is comparably competitive to the AL.

WhiteSoxFan84
12-09-2008, 02:08 PM
That's easier for you to say because you could never be proved wrong because of refusal to be traded to the AL.

Check Clemens, Pettitte, Lilly, Sabathia, Lowe, Moyer, etc. All consistent pitchers who benefited from moving to the NL.

The DH makes a difference and there are more good hitting teams in the AL than there is in the NL. Come on, you have the Giants, Padres, Nationals, and Pirates in the NL.

SoxNation05
12-09-2008, 02:17 PM
Check Clemens, Pettitte, Lilly, Sabathia, Lowe, Moyer, etc. All consistent pitchers who benefited from moving to the NL.

The DH makes a difference and there are more good hitting teams in the AL than there is in the NL. Come on, you have the Giants, Padres, Nationals, and Pirates in the NL.
To think his numbers would jump a run is a little out there. How do you figure they have improved their ERA's from losing the DH. None of those pitchers (aside from Moyer early in his career) have faced the batters of the NL. So all of the NL hitters had little to no experience against these pitchers.

Also Harden only had to 5-6 innings a game. It's pretty easy to have a low ERA when your team is worried about you getting injured and pulling you before the innings where you get tired and lose control

OmarLittle
12-09-2008, 02:22 PM
Peavy's ERA would not be in the 4's. Give me a break. Obviously the AL is the better league but its not nearly as big a jump as you are talking about.

Would Danks ERA have been 2 if he played in the NL this season?

You really shouldn't exaggerate.

edit: for what its worth, peavy's career numbers against the AL:

20 GS, 120.33IP, 3.29 ERA, 1.17 WHIP

doublem23
12-09-2008, 03:08 PM
edit: for what its worth, peavy's career numbers against the AL:

20 GS, 120.33IP, 3.29 ERA, 1.17 WHIP

How many of those games were in San Diego playing by NL rules?

I'm not saying I wouldn't want Peavy, or that he wouldn't be a good pitcher, nor am I saying his ERA would definitely run up to the 4's, but it's not completely UNREASONABLE to say it might. You think he's only waving his NTC to NL teams just so he can have another 50 AB?

kittle42
12-09-2008, 03:15 PM
How many of those games were in San Diego playing by NL rules?

Good point, actually. I didn't add them all up, but outside of 22 scoreless innings at Safeco and the Trop in 3 starts, the rest of his numbers in AL stadiums (5 starts) do look rather pedestrian.

SoxNation05
12-09-2008, 03:17 PM
Good point, actually. I didn't add them all up, but outside of 22 scoreless innings at Safeco and the Trop in 3 starts, the rest of his numbers in AL stadiums (5 starts) do look rather pedestrian.
You took away 22 scoreless innings that's definetly not going to help his ERA.

kittle42
12-09-2008, 03:22 PM
You took away 22 scoreless innings that's definetly not going to help his ERA.

Correct.

His career ERA in 8 starts in AL stadiums is 2.98.

http://www.baseball-reference.com/pi/psplit.cgi?n1=peavyja01&year=00

doublem23
12-09-2008, 03:32 PM
You took away 22 scoreless innings that's definetly not going to help his ERA.

Yeah, even though it disproves my point, 5 career starts is way to small of a sample to be able to definitely say anything, but fi you look at those 5 games (1 start a piece against Los Angeles, Cleveland, Detroit, New York, and Kansas City), his ERA pushes 6. Add 22 scoreless IP against Seattle and Tampa and its under 3.

Maybe Jake Peavy will be the mold-breaker. Hell, he'd be the #1 pitcher on just about every AL staff (except for Toronto, maybe Boston if Josh Beckett is healthy, and maybe Detroit if Justin Verlander gets his head screwed on right again). I'm just saying that there's a lot of evidence to suggest a guy will struggle to duplicate his pitching line in the NL if he moved to the AL.

guillensdisciple
12-09-2008, 03:45 PM
Josh Beckett stats in Florida:

2002: 4.10 ERA
2003: 3.04 ERA
2004: 3.79 ERA
2005: 3.38 ERA

Average ERA: 3.58

very nice

in Boston:

2006: 5.01
2007: 3.27
2008: 4.03

Average ERA: 4.10


There is a reason why Peavy wishes to stay in the NL.

kittle42
12-09-2008, 03:52 PM
Josh Beckett stats in Florida:

2002: 4.10 ERA
2003: 3.04 ERA
2004: 3.79 ERA
2005: 3.38 ERA

Average ERA: 3.58

very nice

in Boston:

2006: 5.01
2007: 3.27
2008: 4.03

Average ERA: 4.10


There is a reason why Peavy wishes to stay in the NL.

There is no such thing as "average ERA."

The actual numbers help you even more. His career ERA at Fenway is 4.79 in 293 innings. His career ERA in Florida is 3.15 in 319.2 innings.

areilly
12-09-2008, 03:55 PM
There is a reason why Peavy wishes to stay in the NL.

BUT,

wouldn't the switch to the AL also mean the offense behind Peavy was by nature going to score more runs in his starts? His ERA last year was 2.85 in the NL and you can see how much good it did him.

Maybe he really does like taking at-bats. Maybe he likes Wrigley Field or has friends on the Cubs. Maybe he sees them as a team in a position to win now. Maybe they're also one of the few teams that would give him a chance to become a star by virtue of their larger market and fan base. Maybe that's a pretty appealing package to a 27-year-old pitcher.

guillensdisciple
12-09-2008, 04:00 PM
BUT,

wouldn't the switch to the AL also mean the offense behind Peavy was by nature going to score more runs in his starts? His ERA last year was 2.85 in the NL and you can see how much good it did him.

Maybe he really does like taking at-bats. Maybe he likes Wrigley Field or has friends on the Cubs. Maybe he sees them as a team in a position to win now. Maybe they're also one of the few teams that would give him a chance to become a star by virtue of their larger market and fan base. Maybe that's a pretty appealing package to a 27-year-old pitcher.

I agree, he would sneak in more wins by playing for another ballclub. My argument was that his ERA and pitching would drop in the AL. The AL is a far superior league, the transition wouldn't be that smooth.

WhiteSoxFan84
12-09-2008, 05:37 PM
are you guys seriously going to take a sample size of EIGHT (8) games peavy has pitched against the AL, on the road, and use that as a basis for your argument?

throw clayton richard out there 8 total times (against probably 4-6 different teams) against NL teams who have never seen him before and he'll probably post a very solid era.

look at peavy's road era last year, wasn't it a 3.80?
now put him in the AL, let him face lineups like detroit's, new york's, LA's, boston's, cleveland's (when healthy), texas', tampa's, and even our's, and face those lineups all year, at least 2-4 times each, we'll see if that ERA stays in the mid 2's. spoiler alert: it won't.

i may have been too high with my guesstimate of his era being "in the 4's", but i would only readjust it to the upper 3's if i had to redo it over. this guy would not be in the low 3's consistently or anywhere near the 2's if he pitched in the AL and he did so FULL-TIME.

:rolleyes: at you guys using eight frickin games in his career in AL stadiums.

WhiteSoxFan84
12-09-2008, 05:38 PM
I agree, he would sneak in more wins by playing for another ballclub. My argument was that his ERA and pitching would drop in the AL. The AL is a far superior league, the transition wouldn't be that smooth.

his pitching would drop, but his era would increase. i knew what you meant, just the wording may confuse those who don't follow.

kittle42
12-09-2008, 05:40 PM
:rolleyes: at you guys using eight frickin games in his career in AL stadiums.

If you read closer, I think we all implicitly/explicitly admit that the sample size is too small.

WhiteSoxFan84
12-09-2008, 06:04 PM
If you read closer, I think we all implicitly/explicitly admit that the sample size is too small.

it doesn't matter, it's part of your arguement and it's weak.
i just can't believe people are arguing that moving from the NL to the AL won't impact your ERA.
i'd love to see a large enough sample size (hell, ill take n > 5 even) of consistent pitchers (by that i mean pitchers who have 5+ full seasons under their belts and pitched in either league for at least 2-3 seasons) who have moved the NL to the AL and have NOT had their ERAs increase by a half a run or more.
maybe i am wrong, but i highly doubt that. not saying "im a genius and im always right", but it just sounds like common sense that...
a) the AL produces a lot more runs than the NL does and thus ERAs will be higher and
b) when you take pitchers whom average what, .130-.150 at the plate?, and replace them with defensive specialists at skilled positions who average probably around .230-.250 at the plate, you are factoring in and additional 10-12 hits per 100 plate appearances. obviously i wont state that the DH replaces the pitcher in the lineup because that's not true. on paper, that is the difference when seeing the positions, but we all can agree that the 8 or 9 hitter on AL teams is the proper replacement for the pitcher on NL teams.

jonred
12-09-2008, 06:33 PM
Obviously in virtually all cases a pitcher's ERA will rise in the AL, due in large part to the fact you are replacing a pitcher's bat with typically a strong hitter in the DH role...I'm not sure what you guys are arguing about?

kittle42
12-09-2008, 07:09 PM
Obviously in virtually all cases a pitcher's ERA will rise in the AL, due in large part to the fact you are replacing a pitcher's bat with typically a strong hitter in the DH role...I'm not sure what you guys are arguing about?

That it won't rise like a point and a half.

WhiteSoxFan84
12-09-2008, 07:09 PM
Obviously in virtually all cases a pitcher's ERA will rise in the AL, due in large part to the fact you are replacing a pitcher's bat with typically a strong hitter in the DH role...I'm not sure what you guys are arguing about?

you are correct for the most part.
as i stated in the post right before your's, the pitcher's spot in the lineup is NOT replaced by the DH. technically speaking, it is, yes. because the "Pitcher's Spot" disappears when playing in an AL ballpark and the "Designated Hitter's Spot" appears. But almost every team's DH is one of their best hitters and that guy would be in the lineup whether he's playing in the AL or in the NL. The guy on an AL ballclub that bats 8th or 9th (some managers put a good hitter with speed at 9 so when the lineup turnsover you have that guy followed by you're leadoff man, and thus the "worst hitter" may land in the 8 spot) is in the lineup mainly for his defense and not so much for his bat. that can be directly linked to a pitcher being in a lineup in the NL only because he HAS to be and because he's pitching, not for his bat. but, as we all know, the AL 8th or 9th hitter is almost always going to be a better hitter than the NL pitcher. the only exceptions are carlos zambrano, mike hampton, micah owings, jason marquis, and the remaining select few who can do damage with their bats.

WhiteSoxFan84
12-09-2008, 07:12 PM
That it won't rise like a point and a half.

who said that? his career era is 3.25. for it to get into the 4's, it just needs to go up three quarters of a run, or half of what you said.

as a wise man recently told me "and if you read closer" lol, you'll notice i contradicted my original statement and said he'd be in the high 3's and close to the 4's, but nowhere near the 2's.

getonbckthr
12-09-2008, 08:38 PM
I really don't know anything about the potential prospects Philly is gonna include to get DeRosa and send to SD. However do we have anything that could top that so we could get DeRosa but not ship off extremely valuable future pieces? I would love getting Derosa. The guy is just a solid ballplayer.

PatK
12-10-2008, 12:12 PM
Is Peavy going to make the lineup that struggles at the plate better in the playoffs?

As they say, you can never have too much pitching, but IMO, they are addressing the wrong issues this off season.

DSpivack
12-10-2008, 12:14 PM
Is Peavy going to make the lineup that struggles at the plate better in the playoffs?

As they say, you can never have too much pitching, but IMO, they are addressing the wrong issues this off season.

When you have the chance to acquire a Cy Young-caliber pitcher, why the heck not? You can never have too much pitching. Also, they're supposedly looking for a left-handed corner OF, either Raul Ibanez or perhaps Bobby Abreu.

jabrch
12-10-2008, 12:26 PM
Is Peavy going to make the lineup that struggles at the plate better in the playoffs?

As they say, you can never have too much pitching, but IMO, they are addressing the wrong issues this off season.

The team that lead the NL in scoring by a large margin doesn't need to worry about its offense as much as some think. The post season struggles are difficult to explain - and I'll use the small sample size as a possible cause.

btrain929
12-10-2008, 12:28 PM
I really don't know anything about the potential prospects Philly is gonna include to get DeRosa and send to SD. However do we have anything that could top that so we could get DeRosa but not ship off extremely valuable future pieces? I would love getting Derosa. The guy is just a solid ballplayer.

Yeah, but he's tainted.

jabrch
12-10-2008, 12:28 PM
I really don't know anything about the potential prospects Philly is gonna include to get DeRosa and send to SD. However do we have anything that could top that so we could get DeRosa but not ship off extremely valuable future pieces? I would love getting Derosa. The guy is just a solid ballplayer.

They need ready or close to ready pitching prospects. So Poreda is likely what we have. Philly is reported to be offering Happ - who is more valuable than Poreda.

I don't think we could help here...unless they want Bailey and we move Dye for Bailey and send Bailey to the Pads to enable Peavy to the Cubs and the Cubs give us Derosa. I'm not sure I'd do that - but it is interesting.

DSpivack
12-10-2008, 12:29 PM
They need ready or close to ready pitching prospects. So Poreda is likely what we have. Philly is reported to be offering Happ - who is more valuable than Poreda.

I don't think we could help here...unless they want Bailey and we move Dye for Bailey and send Bailey to the Pads to enable Peavy to the Cubs and the Cubs give us Derosa. I'm not sure I'd do that - but it is interesting.

Dye for DeRosa? Yeah, no thanks.

nodiggity59
12-10-2008, 12:31 PM
The team that lead the NL in scoring by a large margin doesn't need to worry about its offense as much as some think. The post season struggles are difficult to explain - and I'll use the small sample size as a possible cause.

The problem with their offense is that their hitters, much like those on the Sox, are very unprofessional, don't take walks, and have holes in their swings/approach that can be exploited.

Lee and Soriano are the biggest culprits here. Carlos Lee type players in that the numbers don't tell the whole story. Soto Ks a ton, and DeRosa just had a career year.

The only tough out in that line up is Ramirez, and even he expands the zone often (though he can still make contact).

This is why they can run the table on offense and have it all come crashing down at other times. Very Chi Sox esque.

soltrain21
12-10-2008, 12:35 PM
The problem with their offense is that their hitters, much like those on the Sox, are very unprofessional, don't take walks, and have holes in their swings/approach that can be exploited.

Lee and Soriano are the biggest culprits here. Carlos Lee type players in that the numbers don't tell the whole story. Soto Ks a ton, and DeRosa just had a career year.

The only tough out in that line up is Ramirez, and even he expands the zone often (though he can still make contact).

This is why they can run the table on offense and have it all come crashing down at other times. Very Chi Sox esque.


This statement confuses me greatly.

jabrch
12-10-2008, 12:36 PM
The problem with their offense is that their hitters, much like those on the Sox, are very unprofessional, don't take walks, and have holes in their swings/approach that can be exploited.

Lee and Soriano are the biggest culprits here. Carlos Lee type players in that the numbers don't tell the whole story. Soto Ks a ton, and DeRosa just had a career year.

The only tough out in that line up is Ramirez, and even he expands the zone often (though he can still make contact).

This is why they can run the table on offense and have it all come crashing down at other times. Very Chi Sox esque.

That was the best scoring offense in the NL last year. Unprofessional? Exploited? Bull****.

jabrch
12-10-2008, 12:36 PM
Dye for DeRosa? Yeah, no thanks.

I'd assume we'd get more than just Bailey from the Reds - but I may be wrong.

In either case, Yeah, I don't see it.

nodiggity59
12-10-2008, 12:37 PM
This statement confuses me greatly.

It just means that they do not control the strike zone, do not execute well in moving runners or sac flys, and do not go the other way. Again, this is all the type of hitting we are familiar with. The 2006 White Sox come to mind as another excellent hitting team that could be totally exposed in critical situations.

SoxGirl4Life
12-10-2008, 12:39 PM
Rumor has it the Cubs are trying to send DeRosa to the Twins for some pitching that the Padres want.

http://www.mlbtraderumors.com/2008/12/jake-peavy-ru-2.html

btrain929
12-10-2008, 12:43 PM
They need ready or close to ready pitching prospects. So Poreda is likely what we have. Philly is reported to be offering Happ - who is more valuable than Poreda.

I don't think we could help here...unless they want Bailey and we move Dye for Bailey and send Bailey to the Pads to enable Peavy to the Cubs and the Cubs give us Derosa. I'm not sure I'd do that - but it is interesting.

So you'd trade Dye for Derosa?

Edit: N/M saw your response.

nodiggity59
12-10-2008, 12:43 PM
That was the best scoring offense in the NL last year. Unprofessional? Exploited? Bull****.

haha I'm sorry, did you watch a different NLDS than I did?

I saw undisciplined hitters trying to pull everything, especially Soriano and Lee.

Disagree?

nodiggity59
12-10-2008, 12:47 PM
Yep, just found it.

2006 Sox: 868 runs, 3rd in MLB

2008 Cubs: 855 runs, 2nd in MLB.

Hell, the Rangers scored 900 runs last year.

Just because you run up 10 runs a game against ****ty teams doesn't mean you have an elite offense. It means you are elite at running the score up against ****ty teams.

kittle42
12-10-2008, 12:59 PM
haha I'm sorry, did you watch a different NLDS than I did?

I saw undisciplined hitters trying to pull everything, especially Soriano and Lee.

Disagree?

Nice way to take 3 games and discount 162 others, even if they were the 3 most recent and important games.

btrain929
12-10-2008, 01:01 PM
Nice way to take 3 games and discount 162 others, even if they were the 3 most recent and important games.

Actually you could take the last 6 important games, and discount the 324 other ones......:D:

nodiggity59
12-10-2008, 01:07 PM
Nice way to take 3 games and discount 162 others, even if they were the 3 most recent and important games.

nice try. but the crux of my argument is not "post season is all that matters."

This is the main point, from another post:

"Yep, just found it.

2006 Sox: 868 runs, 3rd in MLB

2008 Cubs: 855 runs, 2nd in MLB.

Hell, the Rangers scored 900 runs last year.

Just because you run up 10 runs a game against ****ty teams doesn't mean you have an elite offense. It means you are elite at running the score up against ****ty teams."

Runs scored does not equal an elite offense, especially considering the fact that the Cubs got 50 some games against the Pirates, Reds, and Astros.

They certainly had an above average offense last year, but I expect them to regress and they could very easily have a below average offense in 09.

russ99
12-10-2008, 01:22 PM
Runs scored does not equal an elite offense, especially considering the fact that the Cubs got 50 some games against the Pirates, Reds, and Astros.



The Astros did pretty well vs. the Cubs last season.

At Home: 4-2
At Wrigley: 5-4
At Milwaukee - Bud-barassment - 0-2

Total: 9-8

The Astros were in range of the Wild Card before the hurricane debacle, so don't lump them in with the division's bad teams.

OmarLittle
12-10-2008, 01:27 PM
The problem with their offense is that their hitters, much like those on the Sox, are very unprofessional, don't take walks, and have holes in their swings/approach that can be exploited.

Lee and Soriano are the biggest culprits here. Carlos Lee type players in that the numbers don't tell the whole story. Soto Ks a ton, and DeRosa just had a career year.

The only tough out in that line up is Ramirez, and even he expands the zone often (though he can still make contact).

This is why they can run the table on offense and have it all come crashing down at other times. Very Chi Sox esque.

Cubs Team BB's last season: 636. Second in all of MLB

Cubs team OBP last season: .354. Second in all of MLB

kittle42
12-10-2008, 01:36 PM
Cubs Team BB's last season: 636. Second in all of MLB

Cubs team OBP last season: .354. Second in all of MLB

Yes, but how many times were they walked by the Astros, Reds, and Pirates?

areilly
12-10-2008, 06:13 PM
Yes, but how many times were they walked by the Astros, Reds, and Pirates?

Don't forget about that one game, either.

PatK
12-10-2008, 07:35 PM
The Cubs did whiff at the plate more than the Sox last year. (1186 to 1016)

jcw218
12-10-2008, 08:54 PM
you are correct for the most part.
as i stated in the post right before your's, the pitcher's spot in the lineup is NOT replaced by the DH. technically speaking, it is, yes. because the "Pitcher's Spot" disappears when playing in an AL ballpark and the "Designated Hitter's Spot" appears. But almost every team's DH is one of their best hitters and that guy would be in the lineup whether he's playing in the AL or in the NL. The guy on an AL ballclub that bats 8th or 9th (some managers put a good hitter with speed at 9 so when the lineup turnsover you have that guy followed by you're leadoff man, and thus the "worst hitter" may land in the 8 spot) is in the lineup mainly for his defense and not so much for his bat. that can be directly linked to a pitcher being in a lineup in the NL only because he HAS to be and because he's pitching, not for his bat. but, as we all know, the AL 8th or 9th hitter is almost always going to be a better hitter than the NL pitcher. the only exceptions are carlos zambrano, mike hampton, micah owings, jason marquis, and the remaining select few who can do damage with their bats.

That's not true. While here are always exceptions, the DH tends to be an older player who can still hit but has trouble playing the field.

jabrch
12-10-2008, 09:42 PM
haha I'm sorry, did you watch a different NLDS than I did?

I saw undisciplined hitters trying to pull everything, especially Soriano and Lee.

Disagree?

Ha ha - I watched 162 games and then the post season. Did you watch a different season than me?

WhiteSoxFan84
12-10-2008, 11:12 PM
That's not true. While here are always exceptions, the DH tends to be an older player who can still hit but has trouble playing the field.

My point is this...
If Thome was in the NL, he'd play first base.
If Ryan Howard was in the AL, he'd be a DH.
Adam Dunn played LF for the Reds, if he signs with an AL team, he will most likely DH.
If Giambi signs with a NL team, he'll play first base. If he signs with an AL team, he'll probably DH.
If Matsui was in the NL, he'd be starting in LF, although he DHs for the Yankees.
If Milton Bradley signs with a NL ballclub, he'll play the outfield when he DH'd last season.

So my point is that MOST DHs are such good hitters that if they were in the NL, that NL ballclub would give up some defense to have that player's bat in their lineup.

WhiteSoxOnly
12-10-2008, 11:33 PM
My point is this...
If Thome was in the NL, he'd play first base.
If Ryan Howard was in the AL, he'd be a DH.
Adam Dunn played LF for the Reds, if he signs with an AL team, he will most likely DH.
If Giambi signs with a NL team, he'll play first base. If he signs with an AL team, he'll probably DH.
If Matsui was in the NL, he'd be starting in LF, although he DHs for the Yankees.
If Milton Bradley signs with a NL ballclub, he'll play the outfield when he DH'd last season.

So my point is that MOST DHs are such good hitters that if they were in the NL, that NL ballclub would give up some defense to have that player's bat in their lineup.

Agree with just about everything here except if Thome was in the NL
he'd be on the DL all year.:wink:

champagne030
12-10-2008, 11:48 PM
Ha ha - I watched 162 games and then the post season. Did you watch a different season than me?

You watched every Flubs game? With full season Sox tickets? :bs:

WhiteSoxFan84
12-11-2008, 01:48 AM
Mark DeRosa's name is now back in the trade talks and it sounds like he has to be involved for the deal to happen. The latest reports say that the Cubs would also send Marquis to the Padres and eat half his salary. They'd keep Sean Marshall but Josh Vitters would become a Padre. DeRosa would end up with the 3rd (or 4th) team involved in the trade and not in San Diego.

Hendry has inquired on Chone Figgins which some people are saying is a clue that DeRosa will be dealt.

Source: mlbtraderumors.com

btrain929
12-11-2008, 01:49 AM
Mark DeRosa's name is now back in the trade talks and it sounds like he has to be involved for the deal to happen. The latest reports say that the Cubs would also send Marquis to the Padres and eat half his salary. They'd keep Sean Marshall but Josh Vitters would become a Padre. DeRosa would end up with the 3rd (or 4th) team involved in the trade and not in San Diego.

Hendry has inquired on Chone Figgins which some people are saying is a clue that DeRosa will be dealt.

Source: mlbtraderumors.com

Now they wanna keep Marshall? Hilarious. I don't see DeRosa (who only has 1 yr left on his contract), Vitters, and Marquis getting Peavy.

WhiteSoxFan84
12-11-2008, 01:53 AM
Now they wanna keep Marshall? Hilarious. I don't see DeRosa (who only has 1 yr left on his contract), Vitters, and Marquis getting Peavy.

DeRosa would go to the Twins or Phillies for a pitching prospect or two. Add whatever the return is on the DeRosa trade to Vitters, Marquis, half of Marquis's salary, and probably more prospects (or Cedeno, Pie, etc), and Towers will gladly accept.

JermaineDye05
12-11-2008, 01:54 AM
Mark DeRosa's name is now back in the trade talks and it sounds like he has to be involved for the deal to happen. The latest reports say that the Cubs would also send Marquis to the Padres and eat half his salary. They'd keep Sean Marshall but Josh Vitters would become a Padre. DeRosa would end up with the 3rd (or 4th) team involved in the trade and not in San Diego.

Hendry has inquired on Chone Figgins which some people are saying is a clue that DeRosa will be dealt.

Source: mlbtraderumors.com

http://i16.photobucket.com/albums/b24/Nightmare30/Funny%20stuff/facepalm.jpg

JermaineDye05
12-11-2008, 01:56 AM
DeRosa would go to the Twins or Phillies for a pitching prospect or two. Add whatever the return is on the DeRosa trade to Vitters, Marquis, half of Marquis's salary, and probably more prospects (or Cedeno, Pie, etc), and Towers will gladly accept.

Or two?!?! They're lucky to get 1 prospect for a year rental of DeRosa. These rumors are getting ridiculous, I'll seriously be royally pissed if the Cubs get Peavy for bull**** like the rumors are saying. Oh and they didn't feel like giving up Sean Marshall? The Cubs were lucky enough to have the Padres want him in the Peavy deal, he's a spot starter. IF the Cubs get him, they better pay a good deal unlike what these reports are saying.

WhiteSoxFan84
12-11-2008, 02:01 AM
It just amazes me how this is working out so perfectly for the Cubs. At first everyone had Peavy going to the Braves and the Cubs were outsiders looking in. But then Peavy says he prefers the Cubs, Towers puts together a package himself and it is a reported package that he is screwing himself in, and the Cubs still are taking their time tinkering with it trying to make it a bigger ripoff.

Why can't we have the Cardinals come to us and tell us Albert Pujols wants to become a White Sox, they need to cut payroll drastically, and they'll give us Pujols for Fields, Broadway, and a gift certificate for 1 free birthday party appearance by Southpaw.
But ohhh that's right, here come the WSI Rainmakers to inform me that...
a) We have nowhere to put Pujols
b) His defense isn't what it used to be
c) Konerko is a better clubhouse guy than Pujols
d) When has Pujols won anything? Nevermind that World Series in 2006, that was all David Eckstein
e) It'd be better to use the money we'd be paying Pujols on like 4 or 5 bums that amount to 1/10th of what Pujols is
f) We can't trade Broadway, he's the next Roy Halladay
g) Last but not least, I am told that giving away Southpaw party certificates is a slap in the face to White Sox fans and attendance would drop drastically due to a boycott because of the disrespect fans were shown

Konerko05
12-11-2008, 02:09 AM
Yep, just found it.

2006 Sox: 868 runs, 3rd in MLB

2008 Cubs: 855 runs, 2nd in MLB.

Hell, the Rangers scored 900 runs last year.

Just because you run up 10 runs a game against ****ty teams doesn't mean you have an elite offense. It means you are elite at running the score up against ****ty teams.

I'm confused. Are you trying to say the White Sox didn't have a great offense in 2006? The reason the 2006 White Sox and 2008 Rangers weren't more successfull was pitching. It doesn't matter how well you hit if your pitching is garbage.

Saying the Cubs' hitters do not take walks is also ridiculous. The Cubs had 6 players with 60+ walks. They had a team OBP of .354. That is very good.

WhiteSoxFan84
12-11-2008, 02:14 AM
you know what name i havent read/heard in a while? ill give you guys 3 clues, 1) his first and last name combined are 8 letters, b) his first name begins with a rich and iii) his last name ends with hill.

i wonder if hendry has convinced the angels that rich hill is the most/best they can get for figgins... i wont even use teal here because it's possible! :(:

JermaineDye05
12-11-2008, 02:20 AM
you know what name i havent read/heard in a while? ill give you guys 3 clues, 1) his first and last name combined are 8 letters, b) his first name begins with a rich and iii) his last name ends with hill.

i wonder if hendry has convinced the angels that rich hill is the most/best they can get for figgins... i wont even use teal here because it's possible! :(:

Doubt it. The Angels are asking a **** ton for Figgins, so I've heard from various articles. Doubt the Cubs can get Figgins without giving a lot. I wouldn't be surprised if the Angels asked for Vitters for Figgins, considering that's the only good prospect the Cubs have left and he's linked to Padres. I really don't see the Cubs getting Figgins if they get Peavy.

Scottiehaswheels
12-11-2008, 02:41 AM
you know what name i havent read/heard in a while? ill give you guys 3 clues, 1) his first and last name combined are 8 letters, b) his first name begins with a rich and iii) his last name ends with hill.

i wonder if hendry has convinced the angels that rich hill is the most/best they can get for figgins... i wont even use teal here because it's possible! :(:Didn't he get traded to the A's for Harden or Haren or whoever they got?

WhiteSoxFan84
12-11-2008, 03:54 AM
Didn't he get traded to the A's for Harden or Haren or whoever they got?

was he in that garbage bag they sent billy beane?
the only names i recall going to oakland were eric patterson and matt murton.

EDIT: here's a link to the trade (http://sports.espn.go.com/mlb/news/story?id=3478902). the cubs received harden AND gaudin for murton, patterson, sean gallagher, and minor league josh donaldson.

btrain929
12-11-2008, 01:04 PM
Kobe!

http://hotstove.mlblogs.com/archives/2008/12/peavy_deal_to_cubs_dead.html

If true, thank God.

thomas35forever
12-11-2008, 01:07 PM
Kobe!

http://hotstove.mlblogs.com/archives/2008/12/peavy_deal_to_cubs_dead.html

If true, thank God.
http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=wIyrkhX4QYk

WhiteSoxFan84
12-11-2008, 01:21 PM
Kobe!

http://hotstove.mlblogs.com/archives/2008/12/peavy_deal_to_cubs_dead.html

If true, thank God.

But the Angels are still interested and you have to ask yourself, what's worse, a team that can keep us out of the World Series acquiring Jake Peavy, or a time that always finds a way to keep itself out of the World Series and can only beat us in (will never happen) and not keep us from making it to the World Series acquiring Jake Peavy?

btrain929
12-11-2008, 01:38 PM
But the Angels are still interested and you have to ask yourself, what's worse, a team that can keep us out of the World Series acquiring Jake Peavy, or a time that always finds a way to keep itself out of the World Series and can only beat us in (will never happen) and not keep us from making it to the World Series acquiring Jake Peavy?

About 95-99% of people would say they prefer him to go to the Cubs instead of an AL team, but I'm not one of them. I absolutely despise the Cubs. The only way I'd want Peavy to go to the Cubs instead of an AL team is if the other team trying to acquire him was a team in our division. Any team outside of the AL Central, then I would want them to get Peavy over the Cubs getting him.

****ed up, I know...

kittle42
12-11-2008, 01:45 PM
About 95-99% of people would say they prefer him to go to the Cubs instead of an AL team, but I'm not one of them. I absolutely despise the Cubs. The only way I'd want Peavy to go to the Cubs instead of an AL team is if the other team trying to acquire him was a team in our division. Any team outside of the AL Central, then I would want them to get Peavy over the Cubs getting him.

****ed up, I know...

I don't want him anywhere near the Cubs. Also, why worry if he goes to an AL team? As we know from other posts here, his AL ERA will be at least in the 4.00+ range!

btrain929
12-11-2008, 01:46 PM
I don't want him anywhere near the Cubs. Also, why worry if he goes to an AL team? As we know from other posts here, his AL ERA will be at least in the 4.00+ range!

Haha, touche'.

veeter
12-11-2008, 02:10 PM
I can't stand Hendry and I hate the cubs. This may reinforce, yet again, all he's good at is signing checks and over paying to get players. If dealing Sean Marshall or Mark DeRosa stood in the way of this deal, he should be fired today. His reluctance to give up Ceda, and only offer his over rated prospects cost him Roberts last year. God bless his ineptitude. However, I really think, despite the statement that, all things cub are a go, from the Trib. Tower, that Peavy's huge contract was the reason for this trade dying. The guy who's been on it has been Starks.

veeter
12-11-2008, 02:19 PM
About 95-99% of people would say they prefer him to go to the Cubs instead of an AL team, but I'm not one of them. I absolutely despise the Cubs. The only way I'd want Peavy to go to the Cubs instead of an AL team is if the other team trying to acquire him was a team in our division. Any team outside of the AL Central, then I would want them to get Peavy over the Cubs getting him.

****ed up, I know...I feel the same way.