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View Full Version : Dye to Cincy for Homer Bailey?


FarmerAndy
11-25-2008, 12:20 PM
Ouch!

http://www.thelotd.com/lance/blog/2008/11/24/tuesday

soltrain21
11-25-2008, 12:22 PM
Ouch!

http://www.thelotd.com/lance/blog/2008/11/24/tuesday

It also says another player. We have no idea who that could be.


Edit - Also - who is this guy?

Thome25
11-25-2008, 12:22 PM
Homer? D'oh!!

Ditka v. God
11-25-2008, 12:24 PM
Maybe we can get Danny Richar back!

cleanwsox
11-25-2008, 12:24 PM
No Coop will fix em posts yet?

First!

Marqhead
11-25-2008, 12:26 PM
Can't wait for April 6th...

FedEx227
11-25-2008, 12:30 PM
Stay away from Homer. He's a lost cause in my mind.

After dominating the minors he's had a very bad two years now.

2007 with MLB he was 4-2, 5.76 ERA, 1.57 WHIP

Followed that up in 2008 with horrendous MLB and AAA numbers.

MLB: 0-6, 7.93 ERA, 2.09 WHIP
AAA: 4-7, 4.77 ERA, 1.47 WHIP

SaltyPretzel
11-25-2008, 12:33 PM
Stay away from Homer. He's a lost cause in my mind.

After dominating the minors he's had a very bad two years now.

2007 with MLB he was 4-2, 5.76 ERA, 1.57 WHIP

Followed that up in 2008 with horrendous MLB and AAA numbers.

MLB: 0-6, 7.93 ERA, 2.09 WHIP
AAA: 4-7, 4.77 ERA, 1.47 WHIP

I'd be pretty weary of any pitcher on my team named Homer.

Tekijawa
11-25-2008, 12:33 PM
Maybe Kenny is just trying to clear cap room for LeBron in 2010?

cbrownson13
11-25-2008, 12:34 PM
Without looking at any stats or anything, Bailey seems kind of like a Gavin Floyd to me in the respect that he's been a highly regarded prospect that hasn't done well in his time in the majors. Maybe that's what Kenny sees in him too?

FedEx227
11-25-2008, 12:36 PM
I'd be pretty weary of any pitcher on my team named Homer.

http://www.bobpitch.com/anon/Spankie_No%20Homers.jpg

KRS1
11-25-2008, 12:37 PM
Well, you could very well say Floyd was a lost cause to a lot of people when we picked him up. Bottom line is that Homer has some electric stuff, but for whatever reason just hasn't put it together and made it work for him in the bigs. He was right there with Hughes just a couple seasons ago as the best pitching prospect in baseball, so it's not like he isn't loaded with upside which KW loves to go for after a down season.

I obviously don't like the thought of trading one of the only dependable cogs of our lineup at this point, but it's hard for me to say "Just say no to Homer," as a lot of you guys are.

decolores9628
11-25-2008, 12:40 PM
This guy reminds me of Floyd more than Jackson does. That being said, I don't think we can have the same kind of luck with him, no reason really, I just don't think we will get the same kind of success. How many diamonds in the rough can we find really?

soxfan43
11-25-2008, 12:40 PM
Maybe Kenny is just trying to clear cap room for LeBron in 2010?


Ha, Nice one. Coop can fix Bailey no problem, get it done kenny!

MeteorsSox4367
11-25-2008, 12:42 PM
Maybe Kenny is just trying to clear cap room for LeBron in 2010?

Never a good idea to make people laugh out loud at work when drinking something.

Well done.

doublem23
11-25-2008, 12:48 PM
http://www.bobpitch.com/anon/Spankie_No%20Homers.jpg

Under those rules, we could still have one. :o:

Frankie5Angels
11-25-2008, 12:50 PM
Dye for Bailey and Nick Masset.

I heard this Masset has Jenks like stuff.

FedEx227
11-25-2008, 12:58 PM
Under those rules, we could still have one. :o:

:D: :D:
http://www.simpsonspark.com/images/whitepages/glumpet_homer.jpg

russ99
11-25-2008, 01:00 PM
Bailey's a AAAA starter and we have too many of those guys already.

If the Reds threw in Freel as the extra player, that might be a possibility, but Homer alone (ahhh!! :D:) is nowhere near enough of a return for JD.

FarmerAndy
11-25-2008, 01:02 PM
I'm trying to figure out how this makes sense for the Reds. Do they think they are in line for serious contention in 2009? Enough so to trade for a $11.5 million rental for one season???

Huisj
11-25-2008, 01:02 PM
Maybe Kenny is just trying to clear cap room for LeBron in 2010?

LeBron just wanna be like Mike.

doublem23
11-25-2008, 01:03 PM
I'm trying to figure out how this makes sense for the Reds. Do they think they are in line for serious contention in 2009? Enough so to trade for a $11.5 million rental for one season???

They lose a headcase pitcher, get a guy who will mash in their glorified Little League ballpark/inferior competition, and wind up picking up a pair of draft picks when they lose their Type A F/A at the end of the year.

NLaloosh
11-25-2008, 01:04 PM
I can't wait to see the look on Cincy's face after they send us Bailey and then they find out that Dye's already been shipped to Tampa Bay.

Kenny is so good.

chaerulez
11-25-2008, 01:05 PM
Bailey has posted awful Floyd pre Sox numbers so a comparison will be made but I don't think he's worth giving up Dye for. It's still a risk and the jury is still out on Floyd, a pitcher who has one above average season under his belt.

PorkChopExpress
11-25-2008, 01:05 PM
I imagine if this trade went through, it would be Dye+cash for Bailey and a A-AA prospect. Dye is one of biggest trading chips (that may actually get traded), and no one seems willing to give up much for him.

Marqhead
11-25-2008, 01:07 PM
I can't wait to see the look on Cincy's face after they send us Bailey and then they find out that Dye's already been shipped to Tampa Bay.

Kenny is so good.

:rolling: Well played.

btrain929
11-25-2008, 01:09 PM
I imagine if this trade went through, it would be Dye+cash for Bailey and a A-AA prospect. Dye is one of biggest trading chips (that may actually get traded), and no one seems willing to give up much for him.

Dye for Bailey and 1 prospect is questionable on our side given Bailey's shaky background.

If were giving up Dye AND CASH? We better be getting a hell of a ballplayer or 2 along with Bailey. Maybe that Jay Bruce character is available...

whitesox901
11-25-2008, 01:18 PM
Dye for Bailey and 1 prospect is questionable on our side given Bailey's shaky background.

If were giving up Dye AND CASH? We better be getting a hell of a ballplayer or 2 along with Bailey. Maybe that Jay Bruce character is available...

never heard of him :tongue:

thomas35forever
11-25-2008, 01:24 PM
If Dye is traded, does that mean Carlos mean Carlos will move over to right and we'll be looking to make a free-agent splash in the outfield?

If Homer Bailey is part of the organization, he'll probably spend most of his time in Charlotte. We're looking for a fifth starter, but he's not it.

SOXfnNlansing
11-25-2008, 01:25 PM
I like Dye in RF. I'd keep him there and dump PK

Domeshot17
11-25-2008, 01:27 PM
Count me on board for this trade. Bailey has plus stuff, huge upside, and from my other posts, while I am not a fan of the thought process coop can fix any busted prospect, the truth is Bailey is probably only a little tweak away. If he gets back to form, I honestly believe he could be the best pitcher in a rotation of himself danks and floyd.

The upside he has is 1000000000000000000 times bigger than Edwin Jackson

sox1970
11-25-2008, 01:28 PM
I like Dye in RF. I'd keep him there and dump PK

Because that's so much easier.

Rockabilly
11-25-2008, 01:29 PM
Bailey & Dickerson for Dye...

I would do

oeo
11-25-2008, 01:35 PM
Considering the state of the division, we could compete with a young club, but damn, I never thought I'd see this much interest from Kenny to field a young team.

SoxSpeed22
11-25-2008, 01:36 PM
Bailey & Dickerson for Dye...

I would doThat would work out pretty well. Dickerson can go to left and TCQ can go to right. The strikeouts are a concern, but working the count is more valued these days.

jabrch
11-25-2008, 01:37 PM
I'm trying to figure out how this makes sense for the Reds. Do they think they are in line for serious contention in 2009? Enough so to trade for a $11.5 million rental for one season???

Add in the two draft picks they would get back for JD after next year - and if they think Bailey is not a legit SP prospect, it does make a lot of sense for them. Dye would put up huge #s in Cinci replacing Dunn.

KyWhiSoxFan
11-25-2008, 01:39 PM
I'd be pretty weary of any pitcher on my team named Homer.

No problem. Walker will successfully convert him to power-hitting outfielder.

oeo
11-25-2008, 01:39 PM
I really don't see why the Reds are interested in Dye, though. They're at least another year away.

CashMan
11-25-2008, 01:46 PM
I really don't see why the Reds are interested in Dye, though. They're at least another year away.


Could it be like the Garland situation, and they are looking at the 2 picks? I am a Bailey fan, just like I was before the Sox acquired Floyd. I also think Jackson is going to be something. Sometimes these "busted" prospects need a change of scenery. I thought the Reds called him up 2 years ago, and he did pretty well in his 1st start, I might be wrong.

oeo
11-25-2008, 01:48 PM
Could it be like the Garland situation, and they are looking at the 2 picks?

That's not what the Angels were looking at.
1)Garland is a Type B.
2)Cabrera is a Type A.

They wanted Garland because they were looking to win a World Series.

And no, that still wouldn't make much sense for the Reds. Why not play one of their kids and give them some experience?

soltrain21
11-25-2008, 01:51 PM
if dye is traded, does that mean carlos mean carlos will move over to right and we'll be looking to make a free-agent splash in the outfield?

If homer bailey is part of the organization, he'll probably spend most of his time in charlotte. We're looking for a fifth starter, but he's not it.


reeemmixxxxx

KyWhiSoxFan
11-25-2008, 01:56 PM
I don't see why a team would want to pay $11-million in order to pick up two draft picks. And I don't see why Cincinnati would want an aging outfielder at the expense of young talent. Cincy is years away from being a contender. They stink. What they need is pitching, not hitting.

A team that is close to wining it all--like Tampa--would be a much more logical destination. Maybe KW is letting talk leak to get more for Dye from Tampa. Cincy would have to throw in a lot more than Bailey to make it work, but it still would not make any sense to me.

russ99
11-25-2008, 01:57 PM
Considering the state of the division, we could compete with a young club, but damn, I never thought I'd see this much interest from Kenny to field a young team.

Well, some of us are not on board with a young team.

Here's the way I see it balancing out as of now:

-3 infielders (Crede, Cabrera, Uribe) ---- +3 Infielders (utility: Betemit and unproven: Nix, Viciedo)
-2 outfielders (Griffey, Swisher) ---- +0 outfielders. Make that -3 if Dye is dealt.
-1 catcher (Hall) ---- +0 catchers.

Where the heck are we going to get guys to fill all these positions?? I certainly don't share the view that our low-ceiling prospects can fill that many lineup spots. One or two is fine, but this is becoming ridiculous.

Kenny needs to start bringing in Major League quality players for those spots pretty soon. I'm trying hard to be patient. I'll give him until after the winter meetings.

oeo
11-25-2008, 01:59 PM
Well, some of us are not on board with a young team.

Here's the way I see it balancing out:

-3 infielders (Crede, Cabrera, Uribe) ---- +2 Infielders (both unproven: Nix, Viciedo)
-2 outfielders (Griffey, Swisher) ---- +0 outfielders. -3 if Dye is dealt.
- 1 catcher (Hall) ---- +0 catchers.

Where the heck are we going to get guys to fill these positions?? I certainly don't share the view that our low-ceiling prospects can fill that many lineup spots.

Kenny needs to start bringing in Major League quality players for those spots pretty soon for me to continue my level of interest in this club.

Thanks for the summary.

russ99
11-25-2008, 02:05 PM
Thanks for the summary.

Sorry, that was before I edited it. Point being, IMO we need to add players to the major league roster rather than remove one at this point, especially for a former top prospect who's slipped back.

I'm not against dealing Dye, I'd just like to see us get something for him that can help us in 2009, and I certainly don't want to see Charlotte Knights as half our opening day lineup.

CashMan
11-25-2008, 02:07 PM
That's not what the Angels were looking at.
1)Garland is a Type B.
2)Cabrera is a Type A.

They wanted Garland because they were looking to win a World Series.

And no, that still wouldn't make much sense for the Reds. Why not play one of their kids and give them some experience?

I meant it as the Sox were looking at the 2 picks, but yeah, it is still odd, unless they have given up on him.

oeo
11-25-2008, 02:08 PM
Sorry, that was before I edited it. Point being, IMO we need to add players to the major league roster rather than remove one at this point, especially for a former top prospect who's slipped back.

I'm not against dealing Dye, I'd just like to see us get something for him that can help us in 2009, and I certainly don't want to see Charlotte Knights as half our opening day lineup.

Well Kenny has to have a plan to fill Dye's spot in the lineup. Maybe that comes in this trade, whatever trade he's dealt in, a free agent, or another deal. We don't have anyone in our minor league system to fill that void, so you don't have to worry about that.

I really like what Kenny is trying to do with this rotation. It could be young, cheap, and studly in a couple of years.

Gammons Peter
11-25-2008, 02:08 PM
Rosenthal says:


The White Sox are asking teams for a young starting pitcher plus additional players for right fielder Jermaine Dye. The Mets, Rays and Phillies are among the teams balking at such a price......


http://msn.foxsports.com/mlb/story/8845170/Braves-join-list-of-suitors-for-righty-Burnett?CMP=OTC-K9B140813162&ATT=49

CashMan
11-25-2008, 02:09 PM
Well, some of us are not on board with a young team.

Here's the way I see it balancing out as of now:

-3 infielders (Crede, Cabrera, Uribe) ---- +3 Infielders (utility: Betemit and unproven: Nix, Viciedo)
-2 outfielders (Griffey, Swisher) ---- +0 outfielders. Make that -3 if Dye is dealt.
-1 catcher (Hall) ---- +0 catchers.

Where the heck are we going to get guys to fill all these positions?? I certainly don't share the view that our low-ceiling prospects can fill that many lineup spots. One or two is fine, but this is becoming ridiculous.

Kenny needs to start bringing in Major League quality players for those spots pretty soon. I'm trying hard to be patient. I'll give him until after the winter meetings.

So, you enjoy Konerko, Thome, and Dye being very slow on the basepads? What do you want Kenny to do? Go and resign Griffey? Swisher didn't have a position, and IF Kenny trades Dye, you don't think he has a backup plan? Seriously, comeon!

CashMan
11-25-2008, 02:10 PM
Rosenthal says:


The White Sox are asking teams for a young starting pitcher plus additional players for right fielder Jermaine Dye. The Mets, Rays and Phillies are among the teams balking at such a price......


http://msn.foxsports.com/mlb/story/8845170/Braves-join-list-of-suitors-for-righty-Burnett?CMP=OTC-K9B140813162&ATT=49

I read that too, but when ST comes closer, someone will get desperate. Kenny doesn't have to trade him.

doublem23
11-25-2008, 02:13 PM
I like Dye in RF. I'd keep him there and dump PK

As has been stated numerous times, Dye is about 100x easier to move right now than PK, before you even factor in Paul's 10/5 rights.

russ99
11-25-2008, 02:14 PM
So, you enjoy Konerko, Thome, and Dye being very slow on the basepads? What do you want Kenny to do? Go and resign Griffey? Swisher didn't have a position, and IF Kenny trades Dye, you don't think he has a backup plan? Seriously, comeon!

No, but of the three Dye has the most chance to make an impact in 2009. We should be looking to ditch one of the other two. But I understand Dye is the most tradeable and has the highest potential return of the three. But we should be dealing him for an established mid to bottom-rotation starter or a MLB/MLB-ready player for one of out many lineup holes rather than taking a chance on a prospect. And as others have said, the market for JD will get better as FA goes on, so I can't see any reason why JD wouldn't bring back that kind of return.

I'm sure Kenny has a backup plan. But all I'm hearing out of Kenny and Ozzie is youth movement, and I'm not into that at all. Once KW goes out and fills a hole with a solid MLB player, I'll back off that idea, but until then I'm really concerned the lineup is going to be Konerko, Thome, A.J., Ramirez and a bunch of kids.

To me, that's the baseball kiss of death. To trade contention for promise of players who may or may not pan out. We saw how that kind of thinking worked in 2007. And not every player is a Quentin or Floyd. If Kenny hits on 50% he's doing a great job. We can't expect the same kind of luck moving forward.

oeo
11-25-2008, 02:17 PM
Rosenthal says:


The White Sox are asking teams for a young starting pitcher plus additional players for right fielder Jermaine Dye. The Mets, Rays and Phillies are among the teams balking at such a price......


http://msn.foxsports.com/mlb/story/8845170/Braves-join-list-of-suitors-for-righty-Burnett?CMP=OTC-K9B140813162&ATT=49

I found that comment about his batting average with RISP and 2 outs hilarious. These 'executives' crack me up. If you're going to cherry pick splits, then you're going to find stuff you don't like about every player.

Lukin13
11-25-2008, 02:17 PM
I can't see Dye being traded until after some or all of the free agent outfielders have inked up.

btrain929
11-25-2008, 02:18 PM
and wind up picking up a pair of draft picks when they lose their Type A F/A at the end of the year.

I don't see why a team would want to pay $11-million in order to pick up two draft picks.

Add in the two draft picks they would get back for JD after next year -

As of right now, JD is a Type B player. Now if he has a monster year next year, he'll probably get into the Type A range, but it's hard to predict that. As of right now, the Reds would only get 1 pick back if Dye left them.

http://www.nypost.com/seven/11042008/sports/yankees/al_player_rankings_136998.htm

The Immigrant
11-25-2008, 02:29 PM
As of right now, JD is a Type B player.

That would be a travesty if true.

EDIT: Just checked out the link - it is true. I guess his 2007 numbers were more sub-par than I remembered.

Domeshot17
11-25-2008, 02:32 PM
Who cares if PK-Dye-Thome are slow. VERY FEW teams have speed in the middle of the order. Where we get burned more is that we have NO SPEED 1-2 OK speed 3 (Quentin) and LITTLE speed 6-9. It is fine to have boppers and cloggers 3-6, but when you have nothing 1-2 7-8-9 it really hurts.

CashMan
11-25-2008, 02:32 PM
No, but of the three Dye has the most chance to make an impact in 2009. We should be looking to ditch one of the other two. But I understand Dye is the most tradeable and has the highest potential return of the three. But we should be dealing him for an established mid to bottom-rotation starter or a MLB/MLB-ready player for one of out many lineup holes rather than taking a chance on a prospect. And as others have said, the market for JD will get better as FA goes on, so I can't see any reason why JD wouldn't bring back that kind of return.

I'm sure Kenny has a backup plan. But all I'm hearing out of Kenny and Ozzie is youth movement, and I'm not into that at all. Once KW goes out and fills a hole with a solid MLB player, I'll back off that idea, but until then I'm really concerned the lineup is going to be Konerko, Thome, A.J., Ramirez and a bunch of kids.

To me, that's the baseball kiss of death. To trade contention for promise of players who may or may not pan out. We saw how that kind of thinking worked in 2007. And not every player is a Quentin or Floyd. If Kenny hits on 50% he's doing a great job. We can't expect the same kind of luck moving forward.


Is he saying, 21-22yr olds or is he saying younger than 35yr olds as the youth movement? When I hear them say youth movement, I assume they are talking about getting younger than Dye, Konerko, and Thome. I am starting to think, Kenny is trying to build again what he had in 2005. And that is starting pitching. I know Dye has done awesome, since the Sox signed him. The thing is when is he going to drop off? Maybe this year, maybe next year, idk. If Kenny sends Dye off, and gets a young, good SP and another prospect in return, I am all more it. Maybe he is trying to do that, then possibly give Abreu a 2-3yr deal. But, Kenny always has a backup plan.

Rdy2PlayBall
11-25-2008, 02:32 PM
What's with Kenny and trying to get people who havn't shown they can play in the majors? Who cares about young, at least get a guy who has proven himself. :scratch:

oeo
11-25-2008, 02:33 PM
That would be a travesty if true.

They're based off of the past two seasons, and he had that terrible first half in 2007. He's been pretty good outside of that one half season, so it's very possible that he's a Type A next year.

spawn
11-25-2008, 02:33 PM
What's with Kenny and trying to get people who havn't shown they can play in the majors? Who cares about young, at least get a guy who has proven himself. :scratch:
You mean like Carols Quentin? Or Alexei Ramirez? They proved a LOT before last year, didn't they?

JohnTucker0814
11-25-2008, 02:34 PM
No, but of the three Dye has the most chance to make an impact in 2009. We should be looking to ditch one of the other two. But I understand Dye is the most tradeable and has the highest potential return of the three. But we should be dealing him for an established mid to bottom-rotation starter or a MLB/MLB-ready player for one of out many lineup holes rather than taking a chance on a prospect. And as others have said, the market for JD will get better as FA goes on, so I can't see any reason why JD wouldn't bring back that kind of return.

I'm sure Kenny has a backup plan. But all I'm hearing out of Kenny and Ozzie is youth movement, and I'm not into that at all. Once KW goes out and fills a hole with a solid MLB player, I'll back off that idea, but until then I'm really concerned the lineup is going to be Konerko, Thome, A.J., Ramirez and a bunch of kids.

To me, that's the baseball kiss of death. To trade contention for promise of players who may or may not pan out. We saw how that kind of thinking worked in 2007. And not every player is a Quentin or Floyd. If Kenny hits on 50% he's doing a great job. We can't expect the same kind of luck moving forward.

Quentin?? Thats 5 very good hitters... Not saying I want to get rid of Dye... but that is still 5 pretty good hitters...

CashMan
11-25-2008, 02:38 PM
What's with Kenny and trying to get people who havn't shown they can play in the majors? Who cares about young, at least get a guy who has proven himself. :scratch:

If we are talking about Kenny trading an established player for prospects, name the trades, and I will dispute them all.

ChiSoxFan81
11-25-2008, 02:39 PM
What is with all these rumors of getting an average to below average starter for Dye? I get that we are listening to offers, but so far these proposed deals make me want to barf.

soxinem1
11-25-2008, 02:40 PM
It also says another player. We have no idea who that could be.


Brandon Phillips???:rolleyes:

Rdy2PlayBall
11-25-2008, 02:43 PM
You mean like Carols Quentin? Or Alexei Ramirez? They proved a LOT before last year, didn't they?The Quentin JUNK is getting annoying. There isn't a Carlos Quentin trade for the Sox every year, and we got double last year, that shows our luck. It's not gana happen every year, lets just hope our little Cuban fellow can be our luck this year, but still... trading Dye for a player that might end up like Logan isn't a safe bet. :?:

Tragg
11-25-2008, 02:46 PM
If the "and another player" is Edinson Volquez, I'm all for it.

To the thread starter - do you actually read Lance's blog?

oeo
11-25-2008, 02:57 PM
What is with all these rumors of getting an average to below average starter for Dye?

Two words: twenty-two.

If the "and another player" is Edinson Volquez, I'm all for it.

I hope you're joking.

FarmerAndy
11-25-2008, 03:05 PM
To the thread starter - do you actually read Lance's blog?

No, just linked there from the MLB Trade Rumors site.

doublem23
11-25-2008, 03:05 PM
They're based off of the past two seasons, and he had that terrible first half in 2007. He's been pretty good outside of that one half season, so it's very possible that he's a Type A next year.

Especially if he were playing in the NL in that bandbox of a stadium. Barring significant injury or the wheels completely falling of JD's game, he'd certainly be a Type A free agent next year if traded to the Reds.

doublem23
11-25-2008, 03:07 PM
The Quentin JUNK is getting annoying. There isn't a Carlos Quentin trade for the Sox every year, and we got double last year, that shows our luck. It's not gana happen every year, lets just hope our little Cuban fellow can be our luck this year, but still... trading Dye for a player that might end up like Logan isn't a safe bet. :?:

Carlos Quentin wasn't luck, look at his minor league numbers, everyone knew he could rake, the D-backs had a logjam in the OF and were tired of him after 2 injury-plagued seasons. Perhaps to the casual baseball observer, Carlos was a true find, but to anyone who pays attention to baseball, they would be at least a bit familiar with the name Carlos Quentin.

That said, can you at least contain your frustration until a move is actually made? So far, there has been almost nothing but rumors here and there so there's no need to really get upset about any of this. Nothing is confirmed more than a columnist threw a quick bite about JD.

CashMan
11-25-2008, 03:14 PM
Carlos Quentin wasn't luck, look at his minor league numbers, everyone knew he could rake, the D-backs had a logjam in the OF and were tired of him after 2 injury-plagued seasons. Perhaps to the casual baseball observer, Carlos was a true find, but to anyone who pays attention to baseball, they would be at least a bit familiar with the name Carlos Quentin.

Great point! Luck is, Hendry getting Lee for a bag of balls, and Ramirez from a team who dumps players within their division. TCQ was because of good scouting. What has Kenny done, to piss people off?

spawn
11-25-2008, 03:17 PM
The Quentin JUNK is getting annoying. There isn't a Carlos Quentin trade for the Sox every year, and we got double last year, that shows our luck. It's not gana happen every year, lets just hope our little Cuban fellow can be our luck this year, but still... trading Dye for a player that might end up like Logan isn't a safe bet. :?:
You're the one who asked what was up with KW trading for players who haven't proven anything in the majors, and I gave you two examples of players that match that criteria. KW doesn't trade for young unporven talent to play in the majors every year. :rolleyes:

AzureJazzMan
11-25-2008, 03:25 PM
I could see Dye being traded for Bailey and Prospects then KW going out and re-signing Griffey for less than we were paying Dye.

That would actually make sense, considering all the talk about Griffey's surgery going so well and that being the reason he was bad in the later part of the season.

You move Griff to RF/DH Put BA in CF and keep TCQ in LF (or flop TCQ and Griff in the OF)

If memory serves, when we picked up Dye, he was coming off a bad year in which he had surgery recently.

Now, I guess we will just have to wait and see who the prospect(s) are, or if all of this is simply bunk.

cburns
11-25-2008, 03:52 PM
I really can't foresee Kenny trading Dye after we already traded Swisher. Otherwise we'll have Dewayne Wise, Brian Anderson, and Carlos Quentin as our starting OF. If I had to guess, Javier and Fields will be traded this offseason.

CashMan
11-25-2008, 04:05 PM
I could see Dye being traded for Bailey and Prospects then KW going out and re-signing Griffey for less than we were paying Dye.

That would actually make sense, considering all the talk about Griffey's surgery going so well and that being the reason he was bad in the later part of the season.

You move Griff to RF/DH Put BA in CF and keep TCQ in LF (or flop TCQ and Griff in the OF)

If memory serves, when we picked up Dye, he was coming off a bad year in which he had surgery recently.

Now, I guess we will just have to wait and see who the prospect(s) are, or if all of this is simply bunk.

But Dye wasn't 80yrs old when we got him.

CashMan
11-25-2008, 04:06 PM
I really can't foresee Kenny trading Dye after we already traded Swisher. Otherwise we'll have Dewayne Wise, Brian Anderson, and Carlos Quentin as our starting OF. If I had to guess, Javier and Fields will be traded this offseason.

Wise SUCKS! I don't know why people think he is anything. I still am wondering why Ozzie played him, he is not good. He is a AAAA player, that is it.

FarmerAndy
11-25-2008, 04:15 PM
I could see Dye being traded for Bailey and Prospects then KW going out and re-signing Griffey for less than we were paying Dye.

That would actually make sense, considering all the talk about Griffey's surgery going so well and that being the reason he was bad in the later part of the season.



Do you you really think that Griffey would be willing to sign a one-year contract for little money??? Because that is the only way it would even come anywhere close to making sense. (And I'm not even sure if it would then either.)

Let it go.

CashMan
11-25-2008, 04:20 PM
Do you you really think that Griffey would be willing to sign a one-year contract for little money??? Because that is the only way it would even come anywhere close to making sense. (And I'm not even sure if it would then either.)

Let it go.

I actually think at Griffs age, and the point of his career, that he would like to play/win a championship. If he could fit on the team, I would say sign him, but I don't see that happening.

KyWhiSoxFan
11-25-2008, 04:49 PM
Brandon Phillips???:rolleyes:

I love Brandon Phillips. That would be one heck of a pickup for second base. Don't know what it would take to get that done.

NLaloosh
11-25-2008, 04:50 PM
I love Brandon Phillips. That would be one heck of a pickup for second base. Don't know what it would take to get that done.


More than Jermaine Dye.

Flight #24
11-25-2008, 04:51 PM
IIRC in one of the local rags in the past few weeks I read something about how Kenny is willing to deal Dye/Jenks but only if he gets HIS deal. That seems to fit with the FoxSports rumor.

Which also makes it seem like whoever the "other player" in this rumored Reds deal is is a dealbreaker, IMO since Bailey's star has at least slightly dimmed. I for one would jump on Freel+Bailey for Dye. Saves cash, adds a solid leadoff guy who can play a number of positions, and adds yet another talented young SP. I'd prefer Jackson, but Freel IMO is a very good player and a great fit for the Sox.

btrain929
11-25-2008, 05:08 PM
I for one would jump on Freel+Bailey for Dye. Saves cash, adds a solid leadoff guy who can play a number of positions, and adds yet another talented young SP. I'd prefer Jackson, but Freel IMO is a very good player and a great fit for the Sox.

Yeah, when he's healthy. But the reality is he'll be 33 on Opening Day, and has played 123 games in the last 2 years combined. He's about as much of a sure bet as Bailey is right now, which isn't much of a sure bet at all.

wassagstdu
11-25-2008, 05:11 PM
I'd be pretty weary of any pitcher on my team named Homer.

His real name is David. Homer is a nickname. Whoaa!

johnnyg83
11-25-2008, 05:13 PM
His real name is David. Homer is a nickname. Whoaa!

I wish his real name was George ... that'd be wonderful.

NLaloosh
11-25-2008, 05:35 PM
Freel's day has come and gone. Bailey is no sure thing so the Sox need to get one solid player along with Bailey.

I doubt this deal gets done as I hear Kenny went to pursue Cincy.

I think that Kenny would be best served by trading Javy, Dye and Jenks in separate moves. Also, he needs to be patient and wait until the FA's are gone and someone is desperate for a solid starter or a big hitter or a closer.

And, I would hold out for a real nice package for Jenks. Javy and Dye should each bring a starting player and a prospect.

Cincy could be a nice trading partner for either javy or dye.

Zisk77
11-25-2008, 06:10 PM
Freel's day has come and gone. Bailey is no sure thing so the Sox need to get one solid player along with Bailey.

I doubt this deal gets done as I hear Kenny went to pursue Cincy.

I think that Kenny would be best served by trading Javy, Dye and Jenks in separate moves. Also, he needs to be patient and wait until the FA's are gone and someone is desperate for a solid starter or a big hitter or a closer.

And, I would hold out for a real nice package for Jenks. Javy and Dye should each bring a starting player and a prospect.

Cincy could be a nice trading partner for either javy or dye.


Anything less than a Hershel Walker type package for Jenks would be a bad idea IMHO.

whitesox901
11-25-2008, 06:12 PM
If Dye went to Cin City, I would rather get Micah Owings in return...doubt that happening though

decolores9628
11-25-2008, 06:13 PM
But Dye wasn't 80yrs old when we got him.


KGJ is my favorite player ever and this made me LOL

turners56
11-25-2008, 06:25 PM
If Dye went to Cin City, I would rather get Micah Owings in return...doubt that happening though

Micah Owings is useless if he doesn't bat.

whitesox901
11-25-2008, 06:37 PM
Micah Owings is useless if he doesn't bat.

Yikes, took alook of his stats I did...pass :tongue:

Tragg
11-25-2008, 06:45 PM
No, just linked there from the MLB Trade Rumors site.
I didn't realize that MLBtraderumors was slumming like that, pulling "rumors" off of blogs of joe schmoes off the street.

soxrepublican
11-25-2008, 07:02 PM
Now Kenny can finnally trade for Ken Griffey Jr.! Cant wait!

gr8mexico
11-25-2008, 07:04 PM
I think getting Homer Bailer and additional player for JD is great. I have been bringing up this idea for awhile now. I hope KW can make this happend. The Sox can then sign Bobby Abreu, he could add speed to the lineup.

btrain929
11-25-2008, 07:04 PM
Now Kenny can finnally trade for Ken Griffey Jr.! Cant wait!

........

soxtalker
11-25-2008, 07:52 PM
If KW initiated the discussion, one possibility is that he may really want to go after Bailey. His background seems to fit with the of the major types of trades KW likes to pull off -- high draft pick / good promise, but price down due to a poor season or two.

I'm not so worried about the loss of Dye. He would certainly be missed, but this is probably the time to trade him. KW doesn't have to replace him in the same trade, and I'm guessing that KW has more names on the list of players that could fill the role than the few big name players that have been thrown around.

One question that I have is why Cincinnati would go for the deal. I understand them being willing to give Bailey up. But, as good a player as Dye is, I don't see where they need someone like him.

whitesox901
11-25-2008, 07:57 PM
If KW initiated the discussion, one possibility is that he may really want to go after Bailey. His background seems to fit with the of the major types of trades KW likes to pull off -- high draft pick / good promise, but price down due to a poor season or two.

I'm not so worried about the loss of Dye. He would certainly be missed, but this is probably the time to trade him. KW doesn't have to replace him in the same trade, and I'm guessing that KW has more names on the list of players that could fill the role than the few big name players that have been thrown around.

One question that I have is why Cincinnati would go for the deal. I understand them being willing to give Bailey up. But, as good a player as Dye is, I don't see where they need someone like him.

Wouldn't they want him to replace Dunn in Right?

luke4me1st
11-25-2008, 08:44 PM
the story about Dye trade rumor has been posted on chisox.com

http://chicago.whitesox.mlb.com/news/article.jsp?ymd=20081125&content_id=3692853&vkey=news_cws&fext=.jsp&c_id=cws

CWSpalehoseCWS
11-25-2008, 08:49 PM
I think getting Homer Bailer and additional player for JD is great. I have been bringing up this idea for awhile now. I hope KW can make this happend. The Sox can then sign Bobby Abreu, he could add speed to the lineup.

I agree. The Sox will surely have saved up enough money to sign a FA that can make an impact.

guillensdisciple
11-25-2008, 08:58 PM
This could be an epic fail, but I think if done, Kenny is just going for that big player.

Also you have to consider Konerko's release, Thome's release, and Javy's release.... the White Sox will be able to sign some serious talent. Younger talent too, while having a great farm system.

Think about it, even now, by dropping some of the older talent, the White Sox still have enough talent (if uninjured) to stay in serious contention. This move would leave another blank hole in the outfield, but I love the salary dumps.


I just can't wait for Thome to get out, hopefully we win one for him next year so he can leave on a good note.

DSpivack
11-25-2008, 09:05 PM
This could be an epic fail, but I think if done, Kenny is just going for that big player.

Also you have to consider Konerko's release, Thome's release, and Javy's release.... the White Sox will be able to sign some serious talent. Younger talent too, while having a great farm system.

Think about it, even now, by dropping some of the older talent, the White Sox still have enough talent (if uninjured) to stay in serious contention. This move would leave another blank hole in the outfield, but I love the salary dumps.


I just can't wait for Thome to get out, hopefully we win one for him next year so he can leave on a good note.

Sounds like to me that the Sox are gunning for Lebron in 2010, too!

guillensdisciple
11-25-2008, 09:06 PM
Just to back up my previous statement, here are some noticeable free agents in 2010....


Adrian Beltre, Chone Figgins, Victor Martinez, Jason Bay, Carl Crawford, Matt Holliday, Josh Beckett, John Lackey, Cliff Lee, Brandon Webb, J.J. Putz.

Not extremely deep, but there are a few players that would fit the mold that Ozzie would want on the field.

I can see a signing of Figgins and Crawford to add speed to the power of Konerko and Ramirez. Also if they play at the pace they are going at, once Konerko leaves, we will have enough money to take care of Quentin and Ramirez.

guillensdisciple
11-25-2008, 09:07 PM
Sounds like to me that the Sox are gunning for Lebron in 2010, too!


Yep, you will see, Kenny will one up Paxson so bad.

btrain929
11-25-2008, 09:08 PM
If this went down and we did have interest in Abreu, it would definitely come with its pro's and con's. He is one of the most consistent hitters in baseball when it comes to putting up good HR's, RBI, SB's, BA, and OBP every year, but I heard he's is one of the worst defensive RF'ers in the game and he will be 35 on Opening Day. I guess it'll come down to what type of contract he'll be looking for. 2-3 years at 11 million a year or 4 years at 15 million a year?

guillensdisciple
11-25-2008, 09:10 PM
If this went down and we did have interest in Abreu, it would definitely come with its pro's and con's. He is one of the most consistent hitters in baseball when it comes to putting up good HR's, RBI, SB's, BA, and OBP every year, but I heard he's is one of the worst defensive RF'ers in the game and he will be 35 on Opening Day. I guess it'll come down to what type of contract he'll be looking for. 2-3 years at 11 million a year or 4 years at 15 million a year?

No thanks, he is old, we need to get younger. I still think the Sox will compete with the team they have now, while possibly creating a monster in the AL central beginning in 2010.

Abreu is old, no speed, good hitting skill, but what is the difference between his and Dye's?

Would much rather have Dye in that case.

TheOldRoman
11-25-2008, 09:12 PM
Do you you really think that Griffey would be willing to sign a one-year contract for little money??? Because that is the only way it would even come anywhere close to making sense. (And I'm not even sure if it would then either.)100% yes. He said he loved it here and he wanted to come back. I think he would take any deal to stay here. However, I don't think there is any way he comes back unless we get a Carlos Beltran, then Dye could give Beltran, RF, and Thome a breather once a week. That might work, but the Sox aren't going to bring back Junior expecting him to be the 4th outfielder defensive replacement.

champagne030
11-25-2008, 09:28 PM
More than Jermaine Dye.

Would that be before or after we deal Viciedo for Jeter?

Bucky F. Dent
11-25-2008, 09:28 PM
Saw this in the posting on the Sox website and nearly yacked up dinner.

I'd rather have Homer Drew on our squad than Homer Bailey!

Tragg
11-25-2008, 09:40 PM
If this went down and we did have interest in Abreu, it would definitely come with its pro's and con's. He is one of the most consistent hitters in baseball when it comes to putting up good HR's, RBI, SB's, BA, and OBP every year, but I heard he's is one of the worst defensive RF'ers in the game and he will be 35 on Opening Day. I guess it'll come down to what type of contract he'll be looking for. 2-3 years at 11 million a year or 4 years at 15 million a year?
We have Dye.
Why would we want to switch? Or want both?

GregO23
11-25-2008, 09:43 PM
I would do it only if we get an Abreu back, with the potential trade for a really good leadoff hitter(or sign Furcal)

btrain929
11-25-2008, 09:52 PM
We have Dye.
Why would we want to switch? Or want both?

I only addressed it because 1-2 posters said they'd be interested in Abreu, and I was giving my take on it if we traded Dye and signed Abreu as his replacement. Depending on his price tag, he'd be a good guy to put in the middle of the order to unclog Thome-Konerko-AJ-any of the other slow guys in the middle of the order.

CWSpalehoseCWS
11-25-2008, 10:02 PM
I only addressed it because 1-2 posters said they'd be interested in Abreu, and I was giving my take on it if we traded Dye and signed Abreu as his replacement. Depending on his price tag, he'd be a good guy to put in the middle of the order to unclog Thome-Konerko-AJ-any of the other slow guys in the middle of the order.

Abreu isn't that fast though. Decent, but also getting older, so he's going to decline. If we did sign him he'd be like Thome/Konerko in a couple years near the end of his contract.

btrain929
11-25-2008, 10:09 PM
Abreu isn't that fast though. Decent, but also getting older, so he's going to decline. If we did sign him he'd be like Thome/Konerko in a couple years near the end of his contract.

Are.....are.....are you serious? You're saying from a speed standpoint, in a few years, Abreu = Konerko?

:thud:

PaleHoser
11-25-2008, 11:12 PM
The Reds have a lot of holes, so my question is who could the Sox add to this to pry Brandon Phillips away from Cincinnati?

Craig Grebeck
11-25-2008, 11:22 PM
The Reds have a lot of holes, so my question is who could the Sox add to this to pry Brandon Phillips away from Cincinnati?
I don't see why we'd be interested. He's below average offensively. His defense is elite, but still not worth the price.

guillensdisciple
11-25-2008, 11:59 PM
If the Sox can pry a little more top tier talent for J.D. I am all for it.

Anyone know how to change their signature, everytime I click on my profile I don't have the option to change it.

Rdy2PlayBall
11-26-2008, 12:09 AM
That said, can you at least contain your frustration until a move is actually made? So far, there has been almost nothing but rumors here and there so there's no need to really get upset about any of this. Nothing is confirmed more than a columnist threw a quick bite about JD.Who's frustrated? :rolleyes:

CWSpalehoseCWS
11-26-2008, 03:27 AM
Are.....are.....are you serious? You're saying from a speed standpoint, in a few years, Abreu = Konerko?

:thud:

Ok, maybe that was a little harsh and a bad example. All I meant was he's only going to start declining over a few years, and won't be as fast as he used to be.

russ99
11-26-2008, 07:54 AM
Quentin?? Thats 5 very good hitters... Not saying I want to get rid of Dye... but that is still 5 pretty good hitters...

Whoops! I forgot Carlos. That's serious egg on my face...

But still, that leaves 4 big holes. And who's going to leadoff and bat #2?

I know Kenny's not done, and these are rumors, so I'll just chill out and be patient. When are the Winter Meetings again? :D:

FarmerAndy
11-26-2008, 08:31 AM
100% yes. He said he loved it here and he wanted to come back. I think he would take any deal to stay here. However, I don't think there is any way he comes back unless we get a Carlos Beltran, then Dye could give Beltran, RF, and Thome a breather once a week. That might work, but the Sox aren't going to bring back Junior expecting him to be the 4th outfielder defensive replacement.

I've read this 5 times and I can't make sense of it.

So we don't bring Griffey back unless we get a better player to play his position....... but then we won't bring him back because we won't expect him to be a backup??? None of these words add up to any sort of logical thought.


Anyway, it doesn't matter. Bringing Griff back would make absolutely no sense at all. You get nothing out of him that you couldn't get out of an average player, the only other reason to have him would be for the thrill of having the name Ken Griffey Jr. on your team...... and I don't want the White Sox to operate like that.

gr8mexico
11-26-2008, 09:24 AM
Abreu isn't that fast though. Decent, but also getting older, so he's going to decline. If we did sign him he'd be like Thome/Konerko in a couple years near the end of his contract.
Bobby Abreu is not super fast but he can steal around 20 bases. That's 20 more bases then anyone else on the team right now.He will also give you the extra Left handed bat the team needs. Bill James still projects good numbers for Abreu next year, actually better numbers then Jermaine Dye. I think Abreu would sign a 2 year contract with an option for a 3rd. Abreu could be the DH in 2010 when Thome is not resigned.

palehozenychicty
11-26-2008, 09:32 AM
Bobby Abreu is not super fast but he can steal around 20 bases. That's 20 more bases then anyone else on the team right now.He will also give you the extra Left handed bat the team needs. Bill James still projects good numbers for Abreu next year, actually better numbers then Jermaine Dye. I think Abreu would sign a 2 year contract with an option for a 3rd. Abreu could be the DH in 2010 when Thome is not resigned.


Problem, though, is that he's is an awful fielder. He's worse than Dye out in right. Dye makes up for his declining range with good positioning. Abreu dances like Curly. Abreu also rarely gets a hit when it's needed. Otherwise, he's fine. :D:

gr8mexico
11-26-2008, 09:58 AM
Problem, though, is that he's is an awful fielder. He's worse than Dye out in right. Dye makes up for his declining range with good positioning. Abreu dances like Curly. Abreu also rarely gets a hit when it's needed. Otherwise, he's fine. :D:
You would know more because you get to watch him way more then I do.
They shouldn't consider him if he is that bad.

WHILEPITCH
11-26-2008, 11:05 AM
I wouldnt trust this blog, it says Dye is due to receive 11mil in the year 20,009.

That's really really long term for JR.

palehozenychicty
11-26-2008, 11:15 AM
You would know more because you get to watch him way more then I do.
They shouldn't consider him if he is that bad.


He's got a solid arm like Dye, and hits for less power but more for doubles and average. He also is at the top of the league in pitches per plate appearance, but unlike Swisher, he's more aggressive attacking the zone.

I am not sure of his VORP or +/- ratio, but I don't think he'll make our team any better. The salaries could be a wash next year, but he wants two more years. Eh.....He was known as the Tin Man in Philly for a reason.

I don't think they're looking at him either, but him and Ozzie have a decent relationship. Who knows?

Gammons Peter
11-26-2008, 11:29 AM
I wouldnt trust this blog, it says Dye is due to receive 11mil in the year 20,009.

That's really really long term for JR.


will we still be paying Julio Cruz then??

doublem23
11-26-2008, 11:32 AM
I wouldnt trust this blog, it says Dye is due to receive 11mil in the year 20,009.

That's really really long term for JR.

That's a terrible deal by Dye's agent. In 20009, $11 million will probably only buy you a clock radio.

areilly
11-26-2008, 11:52 AM
I wouldnt trust this blog, it says Dye is due to receive 11mil in the year 20,009.

That's really really long term for JR.

Actually, that's just the deferred part of Dye's 2008 salary.

AzureJazzMan
11-26-2008, 04:05 PM
Obviously, no one likes the idea of Dye, straight up for Bailey, so who else would the Reds part with. I have a suggestion (big shock, I know) that might make it a bit easier to digest, instead of an un-named prospect.

Since the Reds liked BA, why not parlay

Dye + Anderson

for

Homer Bailey SP + Ryan Freel CF + Chris Dickerson (http://cincinnati.reds.mlb.com/team/player.jsp?player_id=447736) OF

WhiteSoxFan84
11-27-2008, 02:01 AM
horrible rumor.
horrible player we'd get in return.
next rumor please...

whitesox901
11-27-2008, 02:41 AM
Dye for Thom Brennaman???

cws05champ
11-27-2008, 08:39 AM
Dye for Thom Brennaman???

This is just typical of moronic Sox fan behavior!!! Rumor threads being thrown in from all over the place interupting the offseason. This is why they'll never win....because at the end of the day they are still the Sox. :smile:

gr8mexico
11-27-2008, 09:17 AM
horrible rumor.
horrible player we'd get in return.
next rumor please...
Why is this a horrible trade? Homer Bailey is only 22 years old and still has a lot of potential. His only weakness is command, having three plus pitches sometimes causes control issues because of movement, he needs to learn sometimes to take something off.

Craig Grebeck
11-27-2008, 09:36 AM
Why is this a horrible trade? Homer Bailey is only 22 years old and still has a lot of potential. His only weakness is command, having three plus pitches sometimes causes control issues because of movement, he needs to learn sometimes to take something off.
If the trade was Stubbs/Bailey for Dye, I'd be pretty content.

gr8mexico
11-27-2008, 10:15 AM
If the trade was Stubbs/Bailey for Dye, I'd be pretty content.
The value on Stubbs has gone down big time. So it could be possible they could get both.

Craig Grebeck
11-27-2008, 10:24 AM
The value on Stubbs has gone down big time. So it could be possible they could get both.
That's completely untrue.

champagne030
11-27-2008, 11:04 AM
The value on Stubbs has gone down big time.

Since when? He went from high A to AAA last season and still displays excellent defense and speed. That said, he's Brian Anderson with less power and better base stealing ability.

IMO, it all comes down to whether they think they can harness Bailey's command. He had some of the best stuff I've ever seen come through the Midwest League and there's been some awesome pitching talent come through that league in recent years, but even then he had command issues.

Edit:

That's completely untrue.

I agree.

WhiteSoxFan84
11-27-2008, 11:33 AM
Why is this a horrible trade? Homer Bailey is only 22 years old and still has a lot of potential. His only weakness is command, having three plus pitches sometimes causes control issues because of movement, he needs to learn sometimes to take something off.

we already have/had homer bailey in our farm system. his name is/was kris honel. i dont even know if he's around still nor do i care enough. im tired of the over-hyped, bust pitchers in our system, i dont want to see one from someone else's system.

although i must say that bailey is on my squad in MLB 2K8 and im in the season 2015, he's 10-3 with a 3.15 ERA. just a threw a perfect game with him last week against the cubs! :bandance::bandance::bandance:

maybe he won't be so bad after all!

Craig Grebeck
11-27-2008, 11:35 AM
we already have/had homer bailey in our farm system. his name is/was kris honel. i dont even know if he's around still nor do i care enough. im tired of the over-hyped, bust pitchers in our system, i dont want to see one from someone else's system.

although i must say that bailey is on my squad in MLB 2K8 and im in the season 2015, he's 10-3 with a 3.15 ERA. just a threw a perfect game with him last week against the cubs! :bandance::bandance::bandance:

maybe he won't be so bad after all!
I'm guessing the first paragraph was merely sarcasm, as the comparison is foolish and a stretch of insane proportions.

WhiteSoxFan84
11-27-2008, 11:45 AM
I'm guessing the first paragraph was merely sarcasm, as the comparison is foolish and a stretch of insane proportions.

yeh, it somewhat was. but i am truly tired of seeing all these bust SPs come up through our system or come to us via trade. and jermaine dye's value isn't 0, even at his age he's still a great hitter and a decent fielder with a strong arm.

id so much rather read about us dealing dye to the mets for ryan church, jonathon niese, and eddie kunz. im sure we'd have to add more and i dont even know how close this offer is to being fair, but this has a lot more potential of being a successful trade.

Craig Grebeck
11-27-2008, 11:48 AM
yeh, it somewhat was. but i am truly tired of seeing all these bust SPs come up through our system or come to us via trade. and jermaine dye's value isn't 0, even at his age he's still a great hitter and a decent fielder with a strong arm.

id so much rather read about us dealing dye to the mets for ryan church, jonathon niese, and eddie kunz. im sure we'd have to add more and i dont even know how close this offer is to being fair, but this has a lot more potential of being a successful trade.
For one thing, the Mets would never do that. For another, Niese is the only valuable player in that deal, IMO. Church is not a true CF, and there's no need for another corner OF.

Also, what busts are coming to us via trade? Floyd was considered a lost cause or a bust. Many considered Danks to be somewhat of a failure, due to his inability to translate his ability to the mound. I have no idea who/what you are talking about.

KRS1
11-27-2008, 11:53 AM
we already have/had homer bailey in our farm system. his name is/was kris honel. i dont even know if he's around still nor do i care enough. im tired of the over-hyped, bust pitchers in our system, i dont want to see one from someone else's system.

although i must say that bailey is on my squad in MLB 2K8 and im in the season 2015, he's 10-3 with a 3.15 ERA. just a threw a perfect game with him last week against the cubs! :bandance::bandance::bandance:

maybe he won't be so bad after all!

Or you could be more wrong. Honel= career ruined by injury from an imperfect motion and overthrowing to get to the low 90s consistently. He never had the stuff that Homer does and never came close to dominating AA or AAA like Homer did.

Bailey= 22 year old who's had a rough start to his MLB career, despite an easy delivery (which Dick Pole has since tinkered with to smooth out even more) and incredible stuff that can touch 97 late in games without over-exertion. It all comes down to that fact that Homer was indeed rushed to the majors, and that has hurt a lot of kids regardless of potential. It was the improper development of a player that Daver always criticizes our staff for, and he is absolutely right in his criticism.

gr8mexico
11-27-2008, 11:55 AM
That's completely untrue.
You should look around and see some of the reports on him.
http://fantasyfootball.usatoday.com/images/clear.gifStubbs has fanned 25 times in 73 at-bats. That's been the knock against him since before the Reds made him the eighth overall selection in the 2006 draft. Stubbs' defense in center should ensure that he makes it as a regular, but nothing so far suggests that he'll be an above average hitter. He does draw some walks and show occasional power. However, he just doesn't seem to have a whole lot of upside.

Here is some more info on himhttp://fantasyfootball.usatoday.com/images/clear.gif
http://www.minorleagueball.com/2008/9/26/622709/prospect-analysis-drew-stu

WhiteSoxFan84
11-27-2008, 11:59 AM
For one thing, the Mets would never do that. For another, Niese is the only valuable player in that deal, IMO. Church is not a true CF, and there's no need for another corner OF.

Also, what busts are coming to us via trade? Floyd was considered a lost cause or a bust. Many considered Danks to be somewhat of a failure, due to his inability to translate his ability to the mound. I have no idea who/what you are talking about.

you're really going to make me do this? wow, alright, here we go...
jon adkins, frankie francisco, andy sisco, nick masset, and felix diaz, just to name a few and these are just under kenny williams. not saying he's a bad GM, he's nowhere near that, but we've had some guys come in that just stunk up the joint.

floyd looked good at times in the majors and i always had interest in him. danks i didnt know much about. bailey, ive heard A LOT and seen nothing. and let me clarify, im not saying bailey is worthless. i just would rather see dye get dealt for more.

WhiteSoxFan84
11-27-2008, 12:03 PM
For one thing, the Mets would never do that. For another, Niese is the only valuable player in that deal, IMO. Church is not a true CF, and there's no need for another corner OF.

Church would be a very solid replacement for Dye in RF and has been very consistent getting on-base his whole career. he'd fill that spot for 2-3 years until we either trade for another good player, sign a free agent, or develop one. i dont think any of the guys we have now could start in RF and do a good enough job all-around.

btrain929
11-27-2008, 12:09 PM
id so much rather read about us dealing dye to the mets for ryan church, jonathon niese, and eddie kunz. im sure we'd have to add more and i dont even know how close this offer is to being fair, but this has a lot more potential of being a successful trade.

Before we waste anymore time speculating on this trade proposal, let's just end it with a simple fact:

The Mets are one of the few teams that are on JD's "limited no-trade" list. I can't imagine any reason or motivation for JD to approve a trade to the Mets unless they guarantee a 3 year extension or something like that. I doubt the Mets would want to do that with a 35 year old, and I doubt JD would want to be there for 4 years if he put them on a list of places he doesn't want to go at all.

So, yeah.......

WhiteSoxFan84
11-27-2008, 12:11 PM
Before we waste anymore time speculating on this trade proposal, let's just end it with a simple fact:

The Mets are one of the few teams that are on JD's "limited no-trade" list. I can't imagine any reason or motivation for JD to approve a trade to the Mets unless they guarantee a 3 year extension or something like that. I doubt the Mets would want to do that with a 35 year old, and I doubt JD would want to be there for 4 years if he put them on a list of places he doesn't want to go at all.

So, yeah.......


wasn't kenny talking to the mets about vazquez, jenks, AND dye as recently as last week? at least it was "rumored" that he was.

i dont know, wishful thinking i guess. im done playing gm for now lol

btrain929
11-27-2008, 12:12 PM
wasn't kenny talking to the mets about vazquez, jenks, AND dye as recently as last week? at least it was "rumored" that he was.

i dont know, wishful thinking i guess. im done playing gm for now lol

All I heard was Vazquez and Jenks, with Dye possibly to CIN, TB, or ATL.

WhiteSoxFan84
11-27-2008, 12:14 PM
All I heard was Vazquez and Jenks, with Dye possibly to CIN, TB, or ATL.

oh yeh? well then, there goes that pipe dream.

Craig Grebeck
11-27-2008, 12:51 PM
you're really going to make me do this? wow, alright, here we go...
jon adkins, frankie francisco, andy sisco, nick masset, and felix diaz, just to name a few and these are just under kenny williams. not saying he's a bad GM, he's nowhere near that, but we've had some guys come in that just stunk up the joint.

floyd looked good at times in the majors and i always had interest in him. danks i didnt know much about. bailey, ive heard A LOT and seen nothing. and let me clarify, im not saying bailey is worthless. i just would rather see dye get dealt for more.
Almost none of those guys were hyped, at all. Francisco caught on somewhere else, and Sisco was a risk worth taking, as Gload was positively worthless to us and has proved that in KC. None of those guys have ever, ever been as hyped or as talented as Homer Bailey.

CashMan
11-27-2008, 01:36 PM
you're really going to make me do this? wow, alright, here we go...
jon adkins, frankie francisco, andy sisco, nick masset, and felix diaz, just to name a few and these are just under kenny williams. not saying he's a bad GM, he's nowhere near that, but we've had some guys come in that just stunk up the joint.

floyd looked good at times in the majors and i always had interest in him. danks i didnt know much about. bailey, ive heard A LOT and seen nothing. and let me clarify, im not saying bailey is worthless. i just would rather see dye get dealt for more.

Adkins was a throw in, in the Koch trade IIRC
Francisco I have no idea who he is
Sisco was a rule 5 pick from the Cubs then was traded for a player who like Swisher didn't have a spot on the Sox
Masset is a SP for some reason the Sox seemed not to think highly of
Diaz was from the Durham trade

From some of your posts it sounded like you were tired of the Sox drafting pitchers, and overhyping them, then you name players Kenny has acquired who were not the centerpiece of trades. If your gripe would be a Floyd or Danks not panning out, I am fine with that, and would agree, but you are naming throw ins.

whitesox901
11-27-2008, 01:41 PM
This is just typical of moronic Sox fan behavior!!! Rumor threads being thrown in from all over the place interupting the offseason. This is why they'll never win....because at the end of the day they are still the Sox. :smile:

Thom's a pimp, he knows whats going down :wink:

California Sox
11-27-2008, 10:07 PM
Church would be a very solid replacement for Dye in RF and has been very consistent getting on-base his whole career. he'd fill that spot for 2-3 years until we either trade for another good player, sign a free agent, or develop one. i dont think any of the guys we have now could start in RF and do a good enough job all-around.

Doesn't Church have post cocussion syndrome? I thought his career was in jeopardy.

JorgeFabregas
11-27-2008, 10:36 PM
Adkins was a throw in, in the Koch trade IIRC
Francisco I have no idea who he is
Sisco was a rule 5 pick from the Cubs then was traded for a player who like Swisher didn't have a spot on the Sox
Masset is a SP for some reason the Sox seemed not to think highly of
Diaz was from the Durham trade

From some of your posts it sounded like you were tired of the Sox drafting pitchers, and overhyping them, then you name players Kenny has acquired who were not the centerpiece of trades. If your gripe would be a Floyd or Danks not panning out, I am fine with that, and would agree, but you are naming throw ins.
Adkins was the primary piece going to the Sox in the Ray Durham deal. Sisco came in return from the Royals for Ross Gload. Nick Masset has a career MLB WHIP of 1.69. Diaz was in a Lofton trade. I'm not sure any of these facts undermine your point.

CashMan
11-27-2008, 11:08 PM
Adkins was the primary piece going to the Sox in the Ray Durham deal. Sisco came in return from the Royals for Ross Gload. Nick Masset has a career MLB WHIP of 1.69. Diaz was in a Lofton trade. I'm not sure any of these facts undermine your point.

I know wikipedia isn't 100% accurate, but it says Adkins was drafted by Oakland.

btrain929
11-27-2008, 11:13 PM
I know wikipedia isn't 100% accurate, but it says Adkins was drafted by Oakland.

According to Baseball Reference, Adkins was drafted by the A's in '98, and was traded to the WSox in '02 (the only player we received from what I can see) for Durham AND cash. Ouch...

JorgeFabregas
11-28-2008, 09:49 AM
I know wikipedia isn't 100% accurate, but it says Adkins was drafted by Oakland.
Yes, Durham was traded in his walk year to Oakland. He signed with the Giants during that off-season.

jabrch
11-28-2008, 11:49 AM
yeh, it somewhat was. but i am truly tired of seeing all these bust SPs come up through our system or come to us via trade.

Well - then you should stop following minor league baseball.

We have about 60 pitchers in our system at any given time. Of them, under a handful will make the majors. So these "bust SPs" are a fact of life in baseball.

If you don't like seeing "bust SPs" - you should probably limit your baseball watching to the all-star game. That would reduce the odds of seeing too many "bust SPs". That said, you'd still see some...

Sockinchisox
11-30-2008, 08:36 PM
http://www.chicagotribune.com/sports/chi-01-white-sox-chicagodec01,0,74930.story

Any deal between the Reds and Sox regarding Dye is being complicated by "financial matters".

btrain929
11-30-2008, 09:13 PM
My guess is CIN wants money coming back their way for giving up at least 2 good prospects, and KW/JR don't want to...

That would be one reason why it'd make sense to throw Freel in the deal along with Bailey and maybe 1 other prospect: he's due 4 million in '09 and is always injured, so instead of us giving them 3 million or so in cash, we just take him off their hands to clear their books a little and we hope we catch lightning in a bottle.

Tragg
11-30-2008, 09:17 PM
He mentioned backup catcher in the article. Can't we pick that up as a cheap free agent? I hope we don't use talent for that.

munchman33
11-30-2008, 09:59 PM
He mentioned backup catcher in the article. Can't we pick that up as a cheap free agent? I hope we don't use talent for that.

I think the organization is thinking more long term in that role. A young guy to eventually replace A.J. Otherwise, we would have picked up Toby's option.

btrain929
11-30-2008, 09:59 PM
He mentioned backup catcher in the article. Can't we pick that up as a cheap free agent? I hope we don't use talent for that.

I'm pretty sure they are looking for catching themselves, so I doubt they will help us in that area...

Brian26
11-30-2008, 10:53 PM
Bailey was 0-6 last year with close to an 8.00 ERA while pitching in the NL. The year before, he had a 5+ ERA. What's the concensus on this guy? Bad luck, has the talent but needs a change of scenery?

Brian26
11-30-2008, 10:54 PM
According to Baseball Reference, Adkins was drafted by the A's in '98, and was traded to the WSox in '02 (the only player we received from what I can see) for Durham AND cash. Ouch...

Durham was gone after the season anyway. One of the few times KW was in sell mode, so he was lucky to get anything back at all.

btrain929
11-30-2008, 11:08 PM
Bailey was 0-6 last year with close to an 8.00 ERA while pitching in the NL. The year before, he had a 5+ ERA. What's the concensus on this guy? Bad luck, has the talent but needs a change of scenery?

That's my guess. He came into 2007 as the 3rd best prospect in ALL OF BASEBALL, and came into 2008 as the 9th best. I hate to be cliche', but it could be very similar to Floyd's situation where there was a ton of pressure on him to succeed. With him being so young, I don't think it's out of the question that it could have gotten to him and he's just wound too tight right now. A new start can maybe help him relax and go back to the basics. Everything I hear is that his stuff is flat-out filthy....

munchman33
12-01-2008, 12:08 AM
http://armchairgm.wikia.com/Homer_Bailey

There's video in case anyone wanted to see him throw.

Thome25
12-01-2008, 10:52 AM
I think Dye is going to an NL club, most likely the Reds. Last time we saw this much smoke was the Swisher to the Yankees rumors and there turned out to be fire there as well.

guillensdisciple
12-01-2008, 11:03 AM
Perhaps Homer should get a haircut?

russ99
12-01-2008, 12:17 PM
That's my guess. He came into 2007 as the 3rd best prospect in ALL OF BASEBALL, and came into 2008 as the 9th best. I hate to be cliche', but it could be very similar to Floyd's situation where there was a ton of pressure on him to succeed. With him being so young, I don't think it's out of the question that it could have gotten to him and he's just wound too tight right now. A new start can maybe help him relax and go back to the basics. Everything I hear is that his stuff is flat-out filthy....

Floyd needed a full but mediocre year in the 5th starter spot to get back on track. While I'm not dead set against the deal, to give up a solid run producer like Dye, I'd want someone else that can help us in 2009.

It's far from certain that Bailey would even make the club out of spring the way he's looked the last 2 years.

munchman33
12-01-2008, 12:33 PM
Floyd needed a full but mediocre year in the 5th starter spot to get back on track. While I'm not dead set against the deal, to give up a solid run producer like Dye, I'd want someone else that can help us in 2009.

It's far from certain that Bailey would even make the club out of spring the way he's looked the last 2 years.

Coop'll fix 'em.

esbrechtel
12-01-2008, 01:14 PM
The score just reported during their 1 o'clock update that money was holding things up with a Dye trade to the Reds...

Luke
12-01-2008, 01:21 PM
He looks like he has the makings of an ace


http://images.wikia.com/openserving/sports/images/9/96/Maj.jpg


http://www.nndb.com/people/823/000047682/randy-johnson-1-sized.jpg

CashMan
12-01-2008, 01:36 PM
The score just reported during their 1 o'clock update that money was holding things up with a Dye trade to the Reds...


Has Kenny ever sent money with a player to another team?

dickallen15
12-01-2008, 01:38 PM
He looks like he has the makings of an ace


http://images.wikia.com/openserving/sports/images/9/96/Maj.jpg


http://www.nndb.com/people/823/000047682/randy-johnson-1-sized.jpg


He looks like Geddy Lee.

guillensdisciple
12-01-2008, 01:40 PM
He looks like he has the makings of an ace


http://images.wikia.com/openserving/sports/images/9/96/Maj.jpg


http://www.nndb.com/people/823/000047682/randy-johnson-1-sized.jpg

He looks like he is from the southest south.

Thome25
12-01-2008, 01:54 PM
The score just reported during their 1 o'clock update that money was holding things up with a Dye trade to the Reds...


I think that the money issue is just speculation by Mark Gonzales. Dye is a bargain at 12mil per. The Score probably based their report on his column.

oeo
12-01-2008, 01:57 PM
I think that the money issue is just speculation by Mark Gonzales. Dye is a bargain at 12mil per. The Score probably based their report on his column.

It more likely has something to do with who the Reds are giving up. They probably feel they need some money back in the trade with what they are giving up. Maybe Kenny can add another player instead.

esbrechtel
12-01-2008, 02:12 PM
Kenny does like to get salary help as well...if we are getting Freel maybe that is holding it up...how much does Freel make?

AzureJazzMan
12-01-2008, 02:13 PM
It more likely has something to do with who the Reds are giving up. They probably feel they need some money back in the trade with what they are giving up. Maybe Kenny can add another player instead.


I'll put it out there...Jermaine Dye, and Brian Anderson for Bailey, Freel, and Dickerson

oeo
12-01-2008, 02:13 PM
Kenny does like to get salary help as well...if we are getting Freel maybe that is holding it up...how much does Freel make?

Why do we want Freel? :scratch:

It's more likely that the Reds want the Sox to pay a chunk of Dye's contract. The Sox never do that.

esbrechtel
12-01-2008, 02:19 PM
I don't really want Freel but I know he was in part of the rumors...

oeo
12-01-2008, 02:20 PM
I don't really want Freel but I know he was in part of the rumors...

When? I must have missed that part.

KyWhiSoxFan
12-01-2008, 02:22 PM
I think Dye is a bargain at that price. I can't imagine there wouldn't be other teams interested in him.

Maybe KW has locked in on Bailey and nothing comes close to him. Still, if Tampa needs some veteran leadership, they would be crazy not to be interested, and they have the young talent to trade.

Personally, I would hold out for more than Homer Bailey.

Huisj
12-01-2008, 02:25 PM
When? I must have missed that part.

Probably a part on WSI where someone said "I wouldn't mind Freel."

oeo
12-01-2008, 02:35 PM
I think Dye is a bargain at that price. I can't imagine there wouldn't be other teams interested in him.

Maybe KW has locked in on Bailey and nothing comes close to him. Still, if Tampa needs some veteran leadership, they would be crazy not to be interested, and they have the young talent to trade.

Personally, I would hold out for more than Homer Bailey.

The Rays haven't offered more than Andy Sonnanstine or Edwin Jackson. IMO, Bailey >> both. Sonnanstine could step into the rotation next year, but he's a bottom of the rotation guy, and not much more. Jackson would be a major project just like Bailey, except Bailey is only 22 and has a very high ceiling. Also, we'd likely have to live through Jackson's growing pains in the big league rotation next year.

Besides, the rumor has been Bailey plus another player from the beginning. I don't see how what the Rays are offering can be better than that.

CashMan
12-01-2008, 02:52 PM
The Rays haven't offered more than Andy Sonnanstine or Edwin Jackson. IMO, Bailey >> both. Sonnanstine could step into the rotation next year, but he's a bottom of the rotation guy, and not much more. Jackson would be a major project just like Bailey, except Bailey is only 22 and has a very high ceiling. Also, we'd likely have to live through Jackson's growing pains in the big league rotation next year.

Besides, the rumor has been Bailey plus another player from the beginning. I don't see how what the Rays are offering can be better than that.

I think patience is the key. If Kenny pulls the trigger, he will get something good. Maybe he is waiting until arbitration is over to make the deal, seeing if someone like Abreu is there. Kenny has netted us, Danks and Floyd, so I am not worried.

oeo
12-01-2008, 02:54 PM
I think patience is the key. If Kenny pulls the trigger, he will get something good. Maybe he is waiting until arbitration is over to make the deal, seeing if someone like Abreu is there. Kenny has netted us, Danks and Floyd, so I am not worried.

The Rays usually stick to their guns. Unless that's changed (and if it did, Jason Bay likely would be a Ray), they will probably stay with what they have rather than give up another piece to get the deal done.

CashMan
12-01-2008, 03:00 PM
The Rays usually stick to their guns. Unless that's changed (and if it did, Jason Bay likely would be a Ray), they will probably stay with what they have rather than give up another piece to get the deal done.

I think you are right. They have a REALLY REALLY good young core. A nice power hitter in the middle of their lineup would be good. Then again look what they did without that. Remember, Kenny doesn't have to make a trade. I am still wondering what the Reds accomplish with trading Bailey, unless they have given up on him ala Floyd.

Foulke You
12-01-2008, 05:57 PM
I am still wondering what the Reds accomplish with trading Bailey, unless they have given up on him ala Floyd.
Don't underestimate the need for teams to make a move for marketing purposes. Not to say that Jermaine Dye is a household name that sells tickets but trading for someone like him is definitely a "win now" move for an organization that doesn't normally make moves of that kind. Trotting out Homer Bailey for another year and asking the fans to be patient says "rebuilding" to fans thinking about buying season tickets where getting Jermaine Dye to fill Griffey's spot in RF tells the fans they are trying to win for the now and could help them sell more tickets in 2009.

btrain929
12-01-2008, 06:01 PM
Don't underestimate the need for teams to make a move for marketing purposes. Not to say that Jermaine Dye is a household name that sells tickets but trading for someone like him is definitely a "win now" move for an organization that doesn't normally make moves of that kind. Trotting out Homer Bailey for another year and asking the fans to be patient says "rebuilding" to fans thinking about buying season tickets where getting Jermaine Dye to fill Griffey's spot in RF tells the fans they are trying to win for the now and could help them sell more tickets in 2009.

Plus by trading for Dye, you get offense for 1-2 years, which is more of a safe play than risking a 4-5 year contract on a free agent OF'er.

SoxSpeed22
12-01-2008, 06:33 PM
Abreu was not offered arbitration. There is a chance that he will get the same, if not more money than Dye. It should be good value for JD in the trade market. I am still in favor of this trade if it happens.

CashMan
12-01-2008, 08:51 PM
Abreu was not offered arbitration. There is a chance that he will get the same, if not more money than Dye. It should be good value for JD in the trade market. I am still in favor of this trade if it happens.

JD has this year then an option year. I would be for trading Dye for Bailey and a player or 2, and maybe signing Abreu for 2-3 years at the same amount.

soltrain21
12-03-2008, 12:46 PM
John Fay of the Inquirer is saying that the Reds would like to get a young short stop, and we have quite a few right now. Wonder if that would play a part in this supposed deal?

btrain929
12-03-2008, 12:48 PM
John Fay of the Inquirer is saying that the Reds would like to get a young short stop, and we have quite a few right now. Wonder if that would play a part in this supposed deal?

Lillibridge + BA for Bailey. Holler.

russ99
12-03-2008, 01:02 PM
Don't underestimate the need for teams to make a move for marketing purposes. Not to say that Jermaine Dye is a household name that sells tickets but trading for someone like him is definitely a "win now" move for an organization that doesn't normally make moves of that kind. Trotting out Homer Bailey for another year and asking the fans to be patient says "rebuilding" to fans thinking about buying season tickets where getting Jermaine Dye to fill Griffey's spot in RF tells the fans they are trying to win for the now and could help them sell more tickets in 2009.

Do you want the same thing for the Sox? How do you sell tickets after dealing Dye for the same promise of "rebuilding"...

It's one thing to deal guys who were in Ozzie's doghouse and/or couldn't cut it in the pennant race last season, it's another to deal Dye for more prospects.

Dealing Dye for less than a major league experienced player would be the 2009 equivalent of White Flag in my book. I'd certainly take Jackson or Sonnanstine and one of the Rays lower-end prospects than a guy who's failed at his chance at a major league rotation (and then again in AAA after being sent down) like Bailey, regardless of how high his potential "ceiling" may be.

Thome25
12-03-2008, 01:58 PM
Do you want the same thing for the Sox? How do you sell tickets after dealing Dye for the same promise of "rebuilding"...

It's one thing to deal guys who were in Ozzie's doghouse and/or couldn't cut it in the pennant race last season, it's another to deal Dye for more prospects.

Dealing Dye for less than a major league experienced player would be the 2009 equivalent of White Flag in my book. I'd certainly take Jackson or Sonnanstine and one of the Rays lower-end prospects than a guy who's failed at his chance at a major league rotation (and then again in AAA after being sent down) like Bailey, regardless of how high his potential "ceiling" may be.

If fans jump ship because we're trading veterans for good young prospects and therefore adding to our good young core of Danks, Floyd, Quentin, Ramirez, and Jenks. Then good riddance to them......they were probably bandwagon jumpers to begin with and aren't smart enough to see the bigger picture.

Domeshot17
12-03-2008, 02:34 PM
Well, so far, this looks like a rebuilding year. We are cutting payroll and dealing veterans for minor leaguers. That is rebuilding. There has been no indication we will be a major player in free agency, and really, we never are. When it comes to the free agency store, Kenny walks right to the back, looks for whats on clearance, and shops from there (guys like Dye, AJ etc.). There have been no rumors linking us to making a run at any real veterans.

That said, Bailey for Dye is much better than Edwin Jackson or Andy Sonnanstine. Give me 1 guy who has the potential to be the best in our rotation over 2 guys who will never be better than our 4th and 5th starters. I am not too big on the Coop will fix um idea, but Bailey has just flatout filthy stuff, and really struggled with his command. That is pretty much Don Coopers specialty. The only guy in our rotation right now with any chance to be a true number 1 starter is John Danks, but he is not there yet. Bailey gives us a chance to have 2 potential number 1s. That is how you win in the postseason. Edwin Jackson is horsecrap, and Sonnanstine is a poor mans right handed version of Buehrle. He is a soft tosser who tends to miss alot in the strike zone, meaning he won't give up many walks, won't have a high K rate, and will post an era over 4. No Thanks.

champagne030
12-03-2008, 02:35 PM
John Fay of the Inquirer is saying that the Reds would like to get a young short stop, and we have quite a few right now. Wonder if that would play a part in this supposed deal?

We only have one we're allowed to trade that's any good.

champagne030
12-03-2008, 02:41 PM
If fans jump ship because we're trading veterans for good young prospects and therefore adding to our good young core of Danks, Floyd, Quentin, Ramirez, and Jenks. Then good riddance to them......they were probably bandwagon jumpers to begin with and aren't smart enough to see the bigger picture.

The key is "good young prospects". I've only seen us receive one of those so far this offseason. And he's never been above A ball. I hope to see a veteran SP and leadoff hitter acquired with our boatload of payroll trimming.

jabrch
12-03-2008, 03:27 PM
Do you want the same thing for the Sox? How do you sell tickets after dealing Dye for the same promise of "rebuilding"...

It's one thing to deal guys who were in Ozzie's doghouse and/or couldn't cut it in the pennant race last season, it's another to deal Dye for more prospects.

Dealing Dye for less than a major league experienced player would be the 2009 equivalent of White Flag in my book. I'd certainly take Jackson or Sonnanstine and one of the Rays lower-end prospects than a guy who's failed at his chance at a major league rotation (and then again in AAA after being sent down) like Bailey, regardless of how high his potential "ceiling" may be.

You'd take Edwin Jackson over Homer Bailey? That's ridiculous.

White Flag? Are you serious? That's just plain old sillytalk.

Lip Man 1
12-03-2008, 03:52 PM
Thome says: "they were probably bandwagon jumpers to begin with and aren't smart enough to see the bigger picture."

Ummm sure Thome, we're all of below average intelligence.

:rolleyes:

Lip

russ99
12-03-2008, 03:59 PM
You'd take Edwin Jackson over Homer Bailey? That's ridiculous.

White Flag? Are you serious? That's just plain old sillytalk.

Nope, dead serious.

Edwin Jackson is nothing special, but at least he's performed at a decent level against major league hitters and can hold down a mid to low rotation spot. There's nothing about Homer Bailey that leads me to believe he'll turn into an ace, like some of these prospect-mad speculation reports/posts lead us to believe.

With his can't miss status along with his putrid MLB numbers (and AAA numbers last season) I think he's a lot closer to Brandon McCarthy than the Danks or Floyd of two years ago. If he's so great, why would the Reds want to part with him?

White Flag? Trading someone as solid as Dye who has at least 2 top-flight years left in him for player(s) who won't help us in 2009, that's exactly what that is. Some may say KW would then sign a FA like Abreu, but I just don't see that happening. We'd be looking at Wise, Anderson/Owens and Quentin in the OF next season. And maybe also whatever prospect we'd get for Jenks... :puking:

Craig Grebeck
12-03-2008, 04:19 PM
Nope, dead serious.

Edwin Jackson is nothing special, but at least he's performed at a decent level against major league hitters and can hold down a mid to low rotation spot. There's nothing about Homer Bailey that leads me to believe he'll turn into an ace, like some of these prospect-mad speculation reports/posts lead us to believe.

With his can't miss status along with his putrid MLB numbers (and AAA numbers last season) I think he's a lot closer to Brandon McCarthy than the Danks or Floyd of two years ago. If he's so great, why would the Reds want to part with him?

White Flag? Trading someone as solid as Dye who has at least 2 top-flight years left in him for player(s) who won't help us in 2009, that's exactly what that is. Some may say KW would then sign a FA like Abreu, but I just don't see that happening. We'd be looking at Wise, Anderson/Owens and Quentin in the OF next season. And maybe also whatever prospect we'd get for Jenks... :puking:
Jackson is an absolute joke, but I agree I'd much rather have Sonnanstine than Bailey
.

jabrch
12-03-2008, 04:20 PM
Nope, dead serious.

Edwin Jackson is nothing special, but at least he's performed at a decent level against major league hitters and can hold down a mid to low rotation spot.

Have you seen him pitch? ERA over 5, WHIP over 1.6, opp avg over .285... Edwin Jackson sucks.

There's nothing about Homer Bailey that leads me to believe he'll turn into an ace, like some of these prospect-mad speculation reports/posts lead us to believe.

You must be kidding. I don't believe you are serious.

If he's so great, why would the Reds want to part with him?

You can use that logic on any trade made - and it is still crappy logic. If Josh Hamilton was great, why did the Reds want to part with him? Cinci needs a bat in the middle of their order after losing Dunn. It's really that simple. They have a few good starters already - and are more in need of lumber.


White Flag? Trading someone as solid as Dye who has at least 2 top-flight years left in him for player(s) who won't help us in 2009, that's exactly what that is.

Dye may have two top flight years left - he may not. His D has already decayed well below top flight. His hitting this year was good, last year was not. So who knows? I don't want to lose Dye, but if a deal is out there where we can move him and get better, I'm open to hearing it. And there's no way you can conclude that he won't get traded for players that would help us in 09 - since you have no idea other than Bailey what we are talking about getting, or if Bailey will/won't help us in 2009.

Some may say KW would then sign a FA like Abreu, but I just don't see that happening. We'd be looking at Wise, Anderson/Owens and Quentin in the OF next season. And maybe also whatever prospect we'd get for Jenks... :puking:

You can't be serious...You must be pretending to be ignorant. There's no way you believe KW is going to come to opening day with that lineup. You just can't be that ignorant. Really.... Are you?

gr8mexico
12-03-2008, 04:22 PM
if fans jump ship because we're trading veterans for good young prospects and therefore adding to our good young core of danks, floyd, quentin, ramirez, and jenks. Then good riddance to them......they were probably bandwagon jumpers to begin with and aren't smart enough to see the bigger picture.
amen!!!!!

russ99
12-03-2008, 04:31 PM
You can use that logic on any trade made - and it is still crappy logic. If Josh Hamilton was great, why did the Reds want to part with him? Cinci needs a bat in the middle of their order after losing Dunn. It's really that simple. They have a few good starters already - and are more in need of lumber.


Well we obviously disagree, but my only comment on your post is if the Reds need power, then why not deal one of our prospects along with Dye for one of the other Reds pitchers with MLB experience instead of the one guy they have with the "great stuff" who can't put it together? i.e. headcase...

Seems to me other teams are foisting their trash off on Kenny this offseason. We may get another Floyd or Quentin, but that's a rare case and not the norm.

As for the lineup, Kenny's quoted as one way he could go this offseason is go young. I'm hoping he doesn't go that young, but who's to say in this economic and GM dealing/signing climate this offseason?

jabrch
12-03-2008, 05:09 PM
Seems to me other teams are foisting their trash off on Kenny this offseason. We may get another Floyd or Quentin, but that's a rare case and not the norm.

You can't be serious...You just can't. I don't believe you are being serious.

As for the lineup, Kenny's quoted as one way he could go this offseason is go young. I'm hoping he doesn't go that young, but who's to say in this economic and GM dealing/signing climate this offseason?


:chickenlittle

Who's to say anything? But you can't be serious if you are propsing that KW is going to bring Wise, Owens/BA and TCQ forward as the starting OF, and move Jenks, and come with only the current 3 man vet rotation and the rest kids. That's just absolute foolishness. And I don't believe you are as big a fool as you are pretending to be. NOBODY could be as silly as that.

SoxNation05
12-03-2008, 06:08 PM
Lillibridge + BA for Bailey. Holler.
Me likey.

Saufley
12-03-2008, 06:18 PM
So who do we trade to get Figgins?