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Rockabilly
11-21-2008, 12:09 PM
I saw on another Sox website that WSCR is reporting that talks have heated up between the Sox and Rays about J Dye..

any ideas who the Sox might get in return.. I am hoping its Matt Garza

I am not in IL today so can anyone confirm this report

NLaloosh
11-21-2008, 12:12 PM
I don't want them to trade Dye but that is certainly an organization worth trading with. They have loads of excellent young talent.

Tekijawa
11-21-2008, 12:13 PM
Probably, Longoria, Price and Crawford... We might have to throw in Javy and eat 120% of the contracts though.

spawn
11-21-2008, 12:13 PM
I highly doubt that Matt Garza is on the trading block, especially for JD.

Rockabilly
11-21-2008, 12:15 PM
I have heard that the Rays will be trading a starting pitcher this off season because of Price going into the rotation..

It will probably be Edwin Jackson

doublem23
11-21-2008, 12:17 PM
It will probably be Edwin Jackson

Not if they want anything decent in return.

chisoxmike
11-21-2008, 12:18 PM
While I understand Dye is the best trading chip they have, I don't think you would get enough in return to justify trading him.

I say just keep him and let him go after 2009.

ChiSoxFan81
11-21-2008, 12:19 PM
I have heard that the Rays will be trading a starting pitcher this off season because of Price going into the rotation..

It will probably be Edwin Jackson


:chunks



I hear they are offering Raymond and his ATV.

Rockabilly
11-21-2008, 12:21 PM
maybe KW can steal Wade Davis away from the Rays...

Iwamura would be a nice fit for the Sox.. He could be our lead off man..

cbrownson13
11-21-2008, 12:30 PM
Wasn't Andy Sonnanstine rumored to be moved? Not that he's the only thing I would want in return in a Dye trade, but he's got some value, is young, and is a sinkerball pitcher.

CashMan
11-21-2008, 12:34 PM
Wasn't Andy Sonnanstine rumored to be moved? Not that he's the only thing I would want in return in a Dye trade, but he's got some value, is young, and is a sinkerball pitcher.

I watched him pitch in the playoffs, and I liked. Garza is a bit of a head case and Jackson is similar to Floyd in the respect, he was a very highly touted minor leaguer who struggled a little in the majors.

Rockabilly
11-21-2008, 12:35 PM
if Dye is traded to the Rays..

Who will be our RF since we got rid of Swisher...

so we would need a RF and CF...

areilly
11-21-2008, 12:38 PM
I saw on another Sox website that WSCR is reporting that talks have heated up between the Sox and Rays about J Dye..

any ideas who the Sox might get in return.. I am hoping its Matt Garza

I am not in IL today so can anyone confirm this report

If we're going to hope for a ridiculous return, why not Longoria or Kazmir or Shields?

cbrownson13
11-21-2008, 12:38 PM
if Dye is traded to the Rays..

Who will be our RF since we got rid of Swisher...

so we would need a RF and CF...

If Dye gets traded to Rays and we assume we get a pitcher in return. That then gives us room to move Javy to fill one of those holes.

This team is very incomplete right now and it's going to be interesting to see how Kenny fills some of these holes.

I can't imagine a lineup with Getz/Nix, Fields/Viciedo, and question marks in centerfield and maybe one of the corner spots.

areilly
11-21-2008, 12:39 PM
if Dye is traded to the Rays..

Who will be our RF since we got rid of Swisher...

so we would need a RF and CF...

Quentin in right, BA in center, new Cuban import in left.

Theoretically.

chaerulez
11-21-2008, 12:40 PM
Edwin Jackson had his best season last year but he still had a high WHIP of 1.5, so I think he was aided by the good defense played by the Rays. And Jackson doesn't strike out a lot of people to make up for the high walk rate like Matsuzaka does.

I hope it's not for him. I would however welcome Sonnanstine. He is young and not eligible for free agency for four more seasons. He doesn't walk many people and I think getting him for Dye might be a little of a steal. But the Rays desperately need a right handed power bat at the corner OF and getting Dye is a move that could end up getting them a World Series title. Plus they have Price ready to step in and take over a spot in the rotation.

chaerulez
11-21-2008, 12:41 PM
Quentin in right, BA in center, new Cuban import in left.

Theoretically.

Asking an awful lot for a 19 year old with no major league experience to be the opening day LF.

btrain929
11-21-2008, 12:47 PM
Usually if we hear a report coming out now, it's already 2-3 days old and, more often than not, nothing comes out of it.

But if there is any substance to it, I'd prefer to tap into their near MLB ready prospects, cuz I'm not sipping the Andy Sonnanstine cool-aid (only upside is he's a Jon Garland-like guy who we'd have control over for awhile at a fraction of the price) and don't like Edwin "rising fastball" Jackson. That'll work well at the 'Cell....

I agree that Wade Davis, James Houser, Jeremy Hellickson, Jeff Niemann, and Nick Barnese all look good as far as pitchers in their system. Most of their position prospects are already up with the big league team, I believe, outside of Reid Brignac and Tim Beckham.

soltrain21
11-21-2008, 12:49 PM
if Dye is traded to the Rays..

Who will be our RF since we got rid of Swisher...

so we would need a RF and CF...

Quentin in left, Anderson in center, Jenks trade for right. Dye getting moved for pitching allows a Javy trade to fill another hole.

Or there is always free agency.

Scottiehaswheels
11-21-2008, 12:51 PM
James Shields, and then we trade for Rowand and have Grindy and his grindy cousin! :happyguy:

CashMan
11-21-2008, 12:52 PM
Usually if we hear a report coming out now, it's already 2-3 days old and, more often than not, nothing comes out of it.

But if there is any substance to it, I'd prefer to tap into their near MLB ready prospects, cuz I'm not sipping the Andy Sonnanstine cool-aid (only upside is he's a Jon Garland-like guy who we'd have control over for awhile at a fraction of the price) and don't like Edwin "rising fastball" Jackson. That'll work well at the 'Cell....

I agree that Wade Davis, James Houser, Jeremy Hellickson, Jeff Niemann, and Nick Barnese all look good as far as pitchers in their system. Most of their position prospects are already up with the big league team, I believe, outside of Reid Brignac and Tim Beckham.


I know what you are saying, unless these guys are ready to contribute now, you do not trade Dye for them. I know Kenny said, he wants to get younger, but that is rebuilding.

btrain929
11-21-2008, 12:54 PM
I know what you are saying, unless these guys are ready to contribute now, you do not trade Dye for them. I know Kenny said, he wants to get younger, but that is rebuilding.

Plus, my opinion is that if KW wanted to trade Dye to the Rays, he would have got on that right after the playoffs because everybody knew RF was a hole for them. If he could have made that trade for a few promising arms, we probably don't trade Swish as he's in RF.

CashMan
11-21-2008, 12:59 PM
Plus, my opinion is that if KW wanted to trade Dye to the Rays, he would have got on that right after the playoffs because everybody knew RF was a hole for them. If he could have made that trade for a few promising arms, we probably don't trade Swish as he's in RF.

Good point, but I think TCQ will end up in RF. Plus, if Kenny does do something like that, is that like $11mill freed up, maybe to spend on a LFer?

PalehosePlanet
11-21-2008, 01:00 PM
Usually if we hear a report coming out now, it's already 2-3 days old and, more often than not, nothing comes out of it.

But if there is any substance to it, I'd prefer to tap into their near MLB ready prospects, cuz I'm not sipping the Andy Sonnanstine cool-aid (only upside is he's a Jon Garland-like guy who we'd have control over for awhile at a fraction of the price) and don't like Edwin "rising fastball" Jackson. That'll work well at the 'Cell....

I agree that Wade Davis, James Houser, Jeremy Hellickson, Jeff Niemann, and Nick Barnese all look good as far as pitchers in their system. Most of their position prospects are already up with the big league team, I believe, outside of Reid Brignac and Tim Beckham.

How far away is Reid Brignac from making the bigs? I'm thinking he's on the brink now. I would DEFINITELY be up for acquiring him. JD probably isn't enough to land him though.

PalehosePlanet
11-21-2008, 01:03 PM
Good point, but I think TCQ will end up in RF. Plus, if Kenny does do something like that, is that like $11mill freed up, maybe to spend on a LFer?

I know that everyone is against acquiring another big, slow slugger but Adam Dunn could be had for a relatively decent price (3-4 years 30 - 45 mil?) After Thome is gone he would be a good fit as a DH in '10 --- especially if JD is gone too.

chitown13
11-21-2008, 01:04 PM
As reported by ESPN Radio during every 20 minutes, its Dye to Tampa for Jackson. Hear it for yourselves. However, it is Bruce reporting it.

of course, just rumors

Rockabilly
11-21-2008, 01:06 PM
with the Rays needing a closer what could the Sox get for Dye and Jenks...

than the Sox can used Dye money and sign K Rod

CashMan
11-21-2008, 01:07 PM
I know that everyone is against acquiring another big, slow slugger but Adam Dunn could be had for a relatively decent price (3-4 years 30 - 45 mil?) After Thome is gone he would be a good fit as a DH in '10 --- especially if JD is gone too.


If you are looking for LH power, sure. I don't like his avg, then again 40hr 100RBI every year is nice.

CashMan
11-21-2008, 01:08 PM
with the Rays needing a closer what could the Sox get for Dye and Jenks...

than the Sox can used Dye money and sign K Rod


Doesn't KRod want like 5yr 75mill? Tooooo much for a closer, I would try to trade for Street, if that happend.

btrain929
11-21-2008, 01:10 PM
Good point, but I think TCQ will end up in RF. Plus, if Kenny does do something like that, is that like $11mill freed up, maybe to spend on a LFer?

I know Quentin was originally a RF, but he didn't look too smooth last year in LF, usually running in circles for routine fly balls. I'd rather have a stronger defender in RF.

How far away is Reid Brignac from making the bigs? I'm thinking he's on the brink now. I would DEFINITELY be up for acquiring him. JD probably isn't enough to land him though.

Brignac had a strong '06, posting 24HR, 99RBI, .321/.376/.539. But since then, as the competition has gotten better, his numbers have plummeted (sp?):

'07: 17HR, 81RBI, .260/.328/.433
'08: 9HR, 43RBI, .250/.299/.412

The good thing is he's still really young (only turns 23 in January). I'm sure the Rays are still high on him, but just realize it might take him a little longer to get to the bigs then they initially hoped.

Scottiehaswheels
11-21-2008, 01:11 PM
with the Rays needing a closer what could the Sox get for Dye and Jenks...

than the Sox can used Dye money and sign K Rod
I'd rather bring up Link and vomit up losses with him next year than K-Rod at 15 mil in 2 years.

btrain929
11-21-2008, 01:12 PM
As reported by ESPN Radio during every 20 minutes, its Dye to Tampa for Jackson. Hear it for yourselves. However, it is Bruce reporting it.

of course, just rumors

The way you are putting it, is if it's official, not rumors. Don't scare me like that.

CashMan
11-21-2008, 01:13 PM
I'd rather bring up Link and vomit up losses with him next year than K-Rod at 15 mil in 2 years.

I think there are a few options out there still in: KRod, Fuentes(sp?), Street. I know you would have to make a trade for Street, but he wouldn't be a terrible option. I would not shell out money for KRod.

chitown13
11-21-2008, 01:13 PM
My bad. Thats why I had to edit and throw that in there :D:

DSpivack
11-21-2008, 01:14 PM
But it's not wednesday!

PalehosePlanet
11-21-2008, 01:14 PM
As reported by ESPN Radio during every 20 minutes, its Dye to Tampa for Jackson. Hear it for yourselves. However, it is Bruce reporting it.

of course, just rumors

Hopefully not. I do actually like Jackson and still think he has more upside, but I just don't think it's enough for JD. Almost, but not quite.

CashMan
11-21-2008, 01:15 PM
I'd rather bring up Link and vomit up losses with him next year than K-Rod at 15 mil in 2 years.


Does anyone know how close Link is, and if he projects to a closer?

2906
11-21-2008, 01:18 PM
Does anyone know how close Link is, and if he projects to a closer?

Hard to say how close Link is to the majors, but they really like him. He has a very good slider and they like his mentality. He closed a lot in Birmingham. He does not have overwhelming stuff as Jenks did (does).

veeter
11-21-2008, 01:23 PM
with the Rays needing a closer what could the Sox get for Dye and Jenks...

than the Sox can used Dye money and sign K RodNo way you help an AL team by trading them a great closer. The Sox hopefully, are going to be battling the Rays for the next five years to win a championship. I don't want to give them their missing piece.

btrain929
11-21-2008, 01:24 PM
Hopefully not. I do actually like Jackson and still think he has more upside, but I just don't think it's enough for JD. Almost, but not quite.

The only good thing if we get Sonnanstine or Jackson is that could give us room to trade Javy (either of those guys should come somewhat close to giving us the same numbers Javy would have anyways), we'd have them under control cheaply for a good amount of years, and that'd free up 11.5 million from Dye and another 11 from Vazquez.

But that would be pretty crazy if all that happened.

munchman33
11-21-2008, 01:27 PM
I was just turning the corner on Kenny Williams. Dye to Tampa for Edwin Jackson would be just what I need to start ranting incessantly again. :mad:

hi im skot
11-21-2008, 01:27 PM
I was just turning the corner on Kenny Williams. Dye to Tampa for Edwin Jackson would be just what I need to start ranting incessantly again. :mad:

I'm sure you'll find a way to do that regardless. :redneck

kittle42
11-21-2008, 01:29 PM
If Williams trades Dye for Edwin Jackson after that horrible haul in the Swisher deal, I am going to go ballistic.

LoveYourSuit
11-21-2008, 01:31 PM
I know Quentin was originally a RF, but he didn't look too smooth last year in LF, usually running in circles for routine fly balls. I'd rather have a stronger defender in RF.


.

Quentin looked awful in LF when I watched him in person (which is a better indicator that what you watch on TV). And he made one great throw early in the year vs Det and I did not see anything from his arm after that.

LF is where you want him.

veeter
11-21-2008, 01:31 PM
If Williams trades Dye for Edwin Jackson after that horrible haul in the Swisher deal, I am going to go ballistic.I don't see it. Sonnanstine maybe, Jackson no way. Too much of a project. And no, Coop can't fix him.

LoveYourSuit
11-21-2008, 01:34 PM
I might be in the minority, but I like Edwin Jackson's stuff. Him and Cabrera from Baltimore are two guys I :scratch: on why they have not exploded as premier stud pitchers yet.

That said, we better get Jackson and another prospect for Dye.

kjhanson
11-21-2008, 01:36 PM
The only good thing if we get Sonnanstine or Jackson is that could give us room to trade Javy (either of those guys should come somewhat close to giving us the same numbers Javy would have anyways), we'd have them under control cheaply for a good amount of years, and that'd free up 11.5 million from Dye and another 11 from Vazquez.

But that would be pretty crazy if all that happened.

If we freed up all that money, where would it go? It would have to go to offense. There are only two names out there worth a big contract, and Teixera has nowhere to play. That leaves us with two options 1) Save the money and listen to WSI bitch or 2) Sign Manny Ramirez and listen to WSI bitch.

If you protected TCQ with Manny, Thome and Konerko (in that order), who cares what Fields/Viciedo and Getz/Nix do.

If we did free up $23mm from Javy and Jermaine, where should it be spent?

(Notice I started every paragraph with an "If" - making all of these scenarios highly unlikely)

btrain929
11-21-2008, 01:43 PM
I might be in the minority, but I like Edwin Jackson's stuff. Him and Cabrera from Baltimore are two guys I :scratch: on why they have not exploded as premier stud pitchers yet.

They don't like to throw strikes....at all.....ever.

Scottiehaswheels
11-21-2008, 01:46 PM
If we did free up $23mm from Javy and Jermaine, where should it be spent?

To buy the Best Kosher plant to keep half the fan base happy. :D:

esbrechtel
11-21-2008, 01:46 PM
I hope we get more for Dye....and if we are trading Dye for pitching just so we can get rid of Javy I am not too happy...

doublem23
11-21-2008, 01:46 PM
I might be in the minority, but I like Edwin Jackson's stuff. Him and Cabrera from Baltimore are two guys I :scratch: on why they have not exploded as premier stud pitchers yet.

That said, we better get Jackson and another prospect for Dye.

Jackson I think is soft... Think Javy Lopez, but he gets rattled in games against **** teams. Cabrera because he can't throw a strike.

Zisk77
11-21-2008, 01:46 PM
I might be in the minority, but I like Edwin Jackson's stuff. Him and Cabrera from Baltimore are two guys I :scratch: on why they have not exploded as premier stud pitchers yet.

That said, we better get Jackson and another prospect for Dye.


I'm with ya. I Love JD but how many good years does he have left? Jackson could be very good for a long time. You can then fill a hole or 2 by trading Javy. And then get J.D replacement with the money saved. Abreu, Ibanez, etc.

wulfy
11-21-2008, 01:46 PM
We keep talking about freeing up money, assuming we are going to put it back into payroll.

With what is happening in the economy - and with projections at 10% unemployment during 2009 - and the effects that would have on attendance with a blue-collar fan base, the Sox could very well be protecting themselves on cash flow.

Not a popular viewpoint, but one that has to be considered.

chisoxmike
11-21-2008, 01:47 PM
Still waiting for the "Coop will fix him" post.

sox1970
11-21-2008, 01:48 PM
Coop'll fix 'em.

JermaineDye05
11-21-2008, 01:49 PM
Still waiting for the "Coop will fix him" post.

Coop will fix him.

Scottiehaswheels
11-21-2008, 01:49 PM
Still waiting for the "Coop will fix him" post.Carl Pavano, Mark Prior, Mark Mulder, and Elmer Dessens. Coop will fix them, with the help of lots of duct tape to keep their arms on.

doublem23
11-21-2008, 01:49 PM
We keep talking about freeing up money, assuming we are going to put it back into payroll.

With what is happening in the economy - and with projections at 10% unemployment during 2009 - and the effects that would have on attendance with a blue-collar fan base, the Sox could very well be protecting themselves on cash flow.

Not a popular viewpoint, but one that has to be considered.

Blue collar fanbase that has topped 2 million customers the last 4 years and has been in the top 1/2 of American League attendance. If the Sox really knew their fans, they'd know they have to make an attempt to win to put butts in the seats.

JermaineDye05
11-21-2008, 01:50 PM
Jackson I think is soft... Think Javy Lopez, but he gets rattled in games against **** teams. Cabrera because he can't throw a strike.

I think you meant Javy Vazquez

kittle42
11-21-2008, 01:50 PM
We keep talking about freeing up money, assuming we are going to put it back into payroll.

With what is happening in the economy - and with projections at 10% unemployment during 2009 - and the effects that would have on attendance with a blue-collar fan base, the Sox could very well be protecting themselves on cash flow.

Not a popular viewpoint, but one that has to be considered.

At that point, I'll wish I hadn't put down the non-refundable deposit on 2009 tickets.

esbrechtel
11-21-2008, 01:50 PM
I guess I think that seems kind of counter productive....trade Dye to get an "ok" pitcher, then trade the "ok" pitcher we already have for a RF? :?:

LoveYourSuit
11-21-2008, 01:50 PM
We keep talking about freeing up money, assuming we are going to put it back into payroll.

With what is happening in the economy - and with projections at 10% unemployment during 2009 - and the effects that would have on attendance with a blue-collar fan base, the Sox could very well be protecting themselves on cash flow.

Not a popular viewpoint, but one that has to be considered.

Strong possibility.

kittle42
11-21-2008, 01:53 PM
Strong possibility.

You guys are scaring me now. Next thing we know, they'll announce Betemit is going to be in the cleanup spot every day.

chisoxmike
11-21-2008, 01:54 PM
Regardless of the economy, I think Sox fans (and all fanbases) will buy tickets if the team is winning.

doublem23
11-21-2008, 01:54 PM
I think you meant Javy Vazquez

I think I did, too. :cool:

LoveYourSuit
11-21-2008, 01:55 PM
I guess I think that seems kind of counter productive....trade Dye to get an "ok" pitcher, then trade the "ok" pitcher we already have for a RF? :?:


Jackson and Vazquez are a wash in production to me ....actually a higher ceiling still on Jackson. And you save a ton of money there.

Dye and a FA replacement who is not one of the premer ones ..... you might save money there too.

LoveYourSuit
11-21-2008, 01:57 PM
You guys are scaring me now. Next thing we know, they'll announce Betemit is going to be in the cleanup spot every day.

LOL !


And then Dennis Oil Can Boyd becomes our #1 starter.

cws05champ
11-21-2008, 01:58 PM
I put this scenario out there two weeks ago and was shot down. Dye to Tampa for Jackson and Niemann. Then Javy + cash is traded to the Cardinals for Rick Ankiel.

Hope we get more than just Jackson back for Dye....

gr8mexico
11-21-2008, 02:01 PM
If the Sox trade JD. I hope they can work something out with Bobby Abreu.
Bobby Abreu adds some speed to the lineup and still has some pop in his bat.

PalehosePlanet
11-21-2008, 02:02 PM
I put this scenario out there two weeks ago and was shot down. Dye to Tampa for Jackson and Niemann. Then Javy + cash is traded to the Cardinals for Rick Ankiel.

Hope we get more than just Jackson back for Dye....

A Scott Boras client with one year left on his contract; not happening.

kittle42
11-21-2008, 02:04 PM
I put this scenario out there two weeks ago and was shot down. Dye to Tampa for Jackson and Niemann. Then Javy + cash is traded to the Cardinals for Rick Ankiel.

Hope we get more than just Jackson back for Dye....

The second part of your scenario ain't happening.

Domeshot17
11-21-2008, 02:04 PM
I doubt the Sox are THAT worried about attendance with the economy. If anything they know they cant afford to lose. They jacked up ticket prices, so they aren't THAT scared.

Basically

Bad Economy + Playoff Team= The Sox tread water and get through it

Bad Economy + Bad team= 20k fans at every game.

PalehosePlanet
11-21-2008, 02:08 PM
I doubt the Sox are THAT worried about attendance with the economy. If anything they know they cant afford to lose. They jacked up ticket prices, so they aren't THAT scared.

Basically

Bad Economy + Playoff Team= The Sox tread water and get through it

Bad Economy + Bad team= 20k fans at every game.

I agree.

Also I'm not buying the whole "blue collar fanbase" bull****. It's more image than fact.

EMachine10
11-21-2008, 02:14 PM
I can't believe that Williams is that dumb to unload Dye for Jackson. Jackson is NOT GOOD.

http://www.baseball-reference.com/j/jacksed01.shtml

The WHIP is way too high considering he doesn't strike anybody out, and he had his "best" year this year and it wasn't even that good. I was in a very deep FBL and needed Jackson to fill in for some starts, so I watched him closely this year. He's just not good. Seriously, this would be like trading 10 pounds of gold for a few ounces of bronze.

esbrechtel
11-21-2008, 02:15 PM
I agree.

Also I'm not buying the whole "blue collar fanbase" bull****. It's more image than fact.

agreed...

Lukin13
11-21-2008, 02:15 PM
I support a Dye for Jackson trade. Especially, if Tampa minor league prospects are also involved.

The Corner Outfielder FA and Trade Markets are very rich and American League proven, starting pitching is hard to come by.

EMel9281
11-21-2008, 02:16 PM
Carl Pavano, Mark Prior, Mark Mulder, and Elmer Dessens. Coop will fix them, with the help of lots of duct tape to keep their arms on.

Don't forget about Mike Hampton, I hear he's looking for a one-year deal...

One year for the healing touch of the miraculous Coop...

NLaloosh
11-21-2008, 02:21 PM
I'm not believing this rumor at all.

esbrechtel
11-21-2008, 02:22 PM
I believe it is there...that doesn't mean it will happen...

areilly
11-21-2008, 02:25 PM
Asking an awful lot for a 19 year old with no major league experience to be the opening day LF.

True, but no worse than asking Tampa Bay to trade Matt Garza for Jermaine Dye (per the OP).

Domeshot17
11-21-2008, 02:29 PM
How is Edwin Jackson a proven talent? The guy has a career era over 5. He had a mid 4 era last year. He could not even throw 200 IP in 32 games (only 180 last year and 160 the year before). Opponents hit over .280 against him and he gave up 23 homers in Tampa Bay.

If ANYTHING, Jackson was the luckiest SOB alive to finish the year with a sub 5 era and 14 wins. The guy Sucks. His K:BB ratio is almost as bad as Garlands.

Put him on the Sox, in the Cell, and hes going to be back to the high loss, high 5 era pitcher because hell give up 30 homers a year.

Hopefully Kenny is not this stupid, Jackson sucks, and Vazquez is 10x better than Jackson is.

russ99
11-21-2008, 02:33 PM
Quentin in right, BA in center, new Cuban import in left.

Theoretically.

If that goes down I think it will eventually shake down as:

Quentin in right, trade acquisition in center, FA acquisition in left (there are a lot more FA's in LF than CF or 2B).

EMachine10
11-21-2008, 02:33 PM
How is Edwin Jackson a proven talent? The guy has a career era over 5. He had a mid 4 era last year. He could not even throw 200 IP in 32 games (only 180 last year and 160 the year before). Opponents hit over .280 against him and he gave up 23 homers in Tampa Bay.

If ANYTHING, Jackson was the luckiest SOB alive to finish the year with a sub 5 era and 14 wins. The guy Sucks. His K:BB ratio is almost as bad as Garlands.

Put him on the Sox, in the Cell, and hes going to be back to the high loss, high 5 era pitcher because hell give up 30 homers a year.

Hopefully Kenny is not this stupid, Jackson sucks, and Vazquez is 10x better than Jackson is.
Thank you.

Lukin13
11-21-2008, 02:42 PM
How is Edwin Jackson a proven talent? The guy has a career era over 5. He had a mid 4 era last year. He could not even throw 200 IP in 32 games (only 180 last year and 160 the year before). Opponents hit over .280 against him and he gave up 23 homers in Tampa Bay.

If ANYTHING, Jackson was the luckiest SOB alive to finish the year with a sub 5 era and 14 wins. The guy Sucks. His K:BB ratio is almost as bad as Garlands.

Put him on the Sox, in the Cell, and hes going to be back to the high loss, high 5 era pitcher because hell give up 30 homers a year.

Hopefully Kenny is not this stupid, Jackson sucks, and Vazquez is 10x better than Jackson is.

Let me get this straight, according to WSI: Edwin Jackson isn't proven, but John Danks and Gavin Floyd are not only proven but untouchable?

Jackson's BAA isn't very impressive but anytime you have a pitcher throw a 4.42 ERA for 183 innings, in the AL East... the guy is as proven as a 25 year old 4th or 5th starter, with big time upside can be.

wulfy
11-21-2008, 02:45 PM
agreed...

Maybe I should qualify my point to include that the unemployment situation will not/is not limited to the blue collar jobs.

CashMan
11-21-2008, 02:45 PM
How is Edwin Jackson a proven talent? The guy has a career era over 5. He had a mid 4 era last year. He could not even throw 200 IP in 32 games (only 180 last year and 160 the year before). Opponents hit over .280 against him and he gave up 23 homers in Tampa Bay.

If ANYTHING, Jackson was the luckiest SOB alive to finish the year with a sub 5 era and 14 wins. The guy Sucks. His K:BB ratio is almost as bad as Garlands.

Put him on the Sox, in the Cell, and hes going to be back to the high loss, high 5 era pitcher because hell give up 30 homers a year.

Hopefully Kenny is not this stupid, Jackson sucks, and Vazquez is 10x better than Jackson is.

Hmmmm, I can't think of this guys name. He started off as a highly regarded prospect for an NL team, didn't do soo hot when he was called up, got traded spend a year in the minors trying to figure it out. I can't think of his name.

areilly
11-21-2008, 02:47 PM
Hmmmm, I can't think of this guys name. He started off as a highly regarded prospect for an NL team, didn't do soo hot when he was called up, got traded spend a year in the minors trying to figure it out. I can't think of his name.

Corey Patterson?

turners56
11-21-2008, 02:49 PM
Edwin Jackson sucks. Dye for Jackson would be terrible.

munchman33
11-21-2008, 02:55 PM
How is Edwin Jackson a proven talent? The guy has a career era over 5. He had a mid 4 era last year. He could not even throw 200 IP in 32 games (only 180 last year and 160 the year before). Opponents hit over .280 against him and he gave up 23 homers in Tampa Bay.

If ANYTHING, Jackson was the luckiest SOB alive to finish the year with a sub 5 era and 14 wins. The guy Sucks. His K:BB ratio is almost as bad as Garlands.

Put him on the Sox, in the Cell, and hes going to be back to the high loss, high 5 era pitcher because hell give up 30 homers a year.

Hopefully Kenny is not this stupid, Jackson sucks, and Vazquez is 10x better than Jackson is.

Teach him the cutter.

munchman33
11-21-2008, 02:57 PM
If that goes down I think it will eventually shake down as:

Quentin in right, trade acquisition in center, FA acquisition in left (there are a lot more FA's in LF than CF or 2B).

Makin' room for Manny

soxfan43
11-21-2008, 03:07 PM
I can't get 670 or 1000 at work. Any updates at the 2pm news break?

btrain929
11-21-2008, 03:12 PM
I can't get 670 or 1000 at work. Any updates at the 2pm news break?

No. Doesn't sound like anything is too serious.

soxfan43
11-21-2008, 03:15 PM
No. Doesn't sound like anything is too serious.


Thanks, that's what I figured.

chisoxmike
11-21-2008, 03:18 PM
This was a Bruce LeVINELINE report. So there's probably nothing substantial to it.

BadBobbyJenks
11-21-2008, 03:22 PM
I have a crazy theory, hear me out. The Rays will not flip Delmon Young for Garza only to trade Garza for an aging Dye the very next year.

spawn
11-21-2008, 03:25 PM
This was a Bruce LeVINELINE report. So there's probably nothing substantial to it.
Didn't he report yesterday the Cubs and Royals were negotiating a trade for Mark Teahan? Levine never met a rumor he didn't like!:tongue:

UofCSoxFan
11-21-2008, 03:44 PM
if Dye is traded to the Rays..

Who will be our RF since we got rid of Swisher...

so we would need a RF and CF...

Exactly. While I still think Dye has some years left, I wasn't against trading him while he still has some value before Swisher was given the boot. I don't feel comfortable with an OF consisting of a guy coming off wrist surgery (I think Q will be fine but you never really know if the power will be there till you see it with that type of injury), Brian Anderson in CF, and Bettimet/Wise/another FA in RF, coupled with Fields/Bettimet/Viciedo at 3B. Even if that fills in our rotation, that is just way too many question marks.

thomas35forever
11-21-2008, 04:32 PM
If Dye is traded for Edwin freakin' Jackson, then that creates two problems:

1) We unloaded a rightfielder who, though getting up there in age, still has power left in him and plays decent defense.

2) We get a starter who's as big a head case as Javy. We don't need two Javys on this team.

I would give this deal a whoppin' thumbs down.

AzureJazzMan
11-21-2008, 04:33 PM
Hmmmm, I can't think of this guys name. He started off as a highly regarded prospect for an NL team, didn't do soo hot when he was called up, got traded spend a year in the minors trying to figure it out. I can't think of his name.

Exactly! You nailed it!

If any of you were so inclined, I encourage you to read...

http://www.whitesoxinteractive.com/vbulletin/showthread.php?t=82009&highlight=Gavin+Floyd

Now extrapolate the subject of that thread (Gavin Floyd) with this one (Edwin Jackson). The similarities are pretty darn close and they are about the same age as well (by that, I mean both were born in '83).

(Minor League)
IP---K---BB--ERA-WHIP
385 269 153 4.98 1.44 - Floyd
446 311 229 5.15 1.63 - Jackson

(Major League)
IP---K---BB--ERA-WHIP
812 645 303 3.69 1.29 - Floyd
556 478 250 4.39 1.38 - Jackson

If you throw in a quality Minor Leaguer from the Rays, like...Nick DeBarr (http://www.minorleaguebaseball.com/milb/stats/stats.jsp?n=Nick%20DeBarr&pos=P&sid=milb&t=p_pbp&pid=456138) or Chris Mason (http://www.minorleaguebaseball.com/milb/stats/stats.jsp?n=Chris%20Mason&pos=P&sid=milb&t=p_pbp&pid=452993) (who reminds me a lot of a young Jenks).

Or

Edwin Jackson, and Fernando Perez (http://tampabay.rays.mlb.com/team/player.jsp?player_id=445010), I would say to absolutely do it.

soxfan43
11-21-2008, 04:35 PM
If Dye is traded for Edwin freakin' Jackson, then that creates two problems:

1) We unloaded a rightfielder who, though getting up there in age, still has power left in him and plays decent defense.

2) We get a starter who's as big a head case as Javy. We don't need two Javys on this team.

I would give this deal a whoppin' thumbs down.

I'd imagine Javy would be on his way out if the Sox acquired a starting pitcher.

doublem23
11-21-2008, 05:14 PM
Hmmmm, I can't think of this guys name. He started off as a highly regarded prospect for an NL team, didn't do soo hot when he was called up, got traded spend a year in the minors trying to figure it out. I can't think of his name.

So now we're praying lightning strikes twice?

Not to mention Floyd was acquired as a long term project. If we get Jackson, he'll likely be in the rotation for 2009 (unless KW pulls a few aces out of his sleeve).

Domeshot17
11-21-2008, 05:26 PM
My mind, is literally, blown right now.

I am not opposed to trading Dye.

But

WSI wants to trade our only other consistent offensive force to Quentin, when Quentin is coming off a big injury that could very well cost him power, because 1 time we brought a kid back from the dead?

What if Jackson goes the route of Andy Sisco, another big time prospect who we couldn't fix?

This is just a horrendously stupid idea.

Hell, lets trade Dye for Andy Marte then. He was suppose to be the best 3b prospect in baseball. We can then move Dayan to the OF

soxrepublican
11-21-2008, 05:30 PM
We should trade Dye for Greg Norton.

pmck003
11-21-2008, 05:47 PM
I wonder if Tampa has any extra interest because of Dye's performance in the playoffs against them; he hit 375/412 with a double and a hr. In Tampa over the last three years hes hit 333 with a 606 slg. per. in 33 AB. I Don't know if such a small sample would have any impact or not.

Tragg
11-21-2008, 07:12 PM
Exactly! You nailed it!

If any of you were so inclined, I encourage you to read...

http://www.whitesoxinteractive.com/vbulletin/showthread.php?t=82009&highlight=Gavin+Floyd

Now extrapolate the subject of that thread (Gavin Floyd) with this one (Edwin Jackson). The similarities are pretty darn close and they are about the same age as well (by that, I mean both were born in '83).

Dye for Jackson doesn't compensate us for the risk.
We didn't just trade Gracia for Floyd - Floyd plus a top pitching prospect.

Brian26
11-21-2008, 07:43 PM
Not the first time KW's gone after Edwin Jackson. I'm pretty sure his name came up before the '04 season in a deal that would have sent Mags to LA.

NardiWasHere
11-21-2008, 07:47 PM
Not the first time KW's gone after Edwin Jackson. I'm pretty sure his name came up before the '04 season in a deal that would have sent Mags to LA.

If that's the case.... TB should ask for Dye, TCQ, Alexei, and Danks just to see if KW bites....

Brian26
11-21-2008, 07:58 PM
If that's the case.... TB should ask for Dye, TCQ, Alexei, and Danks just to see if KW bites....

There were other names involved. It wasn't Mags straight up for Jackson. And the Sox were trying to get rid of Mags because they knew they had very little chance of re-signing him.

LoveYourSuit
11-22-2008, 01:13 AM
I have a crazy theory, hear me out. The Rays will not flip Delmon Young for Garza only to trade Garza for an aging Dye the very next year.


I think the Twins feel they got burned on that trade.

Delmon was a dissapointment last season.

oeo
11-22-2008, 10:46 AM
I think the Twins feel they got burned on that trade.

Delmon was a dissapointment last season.

Maybe power wise, but otherwise he wasn't bad. He's also only 22.

Garza didn't get along with Gardenhire, that's why he was dealt.

doublem23
11-22-2008, 10:55 AM
Garza didn't get along with Gardenhire, that's why he was dealt.

Not to mention they still have a lot of pitching depth.

soxfanreggie
11-22-2008, 11:51 AM
I am in favor or getting rid of one of our aging slow sluggers because, while I like them all, we don't need to clog the base paths as much. Plus, with Thome and/or Dye not being back after this season, I wouldn't mind turning them into some younger talent and getting some salary off the books. I wouldn't mind taking some of that savings and taking a shot a Burnett. He will probably want too much money and years, but I wouldn't mind making an offer.

luke4me1st
11-22-2008, 02:12 PM
I am in favor or getting rid of one of our aging slow sluggers because, while I like them all, we don't need to clog the base paths as much. Plus, with Thome and/or Dye not being back after this season, I wouldn't mind turning them into some younger talent and getting some salary off the books. I wouldn't mind taking some of that savings and taking a shot a Burnett. He will probably want too much money and years, but I wouldn't mind making an offer.

Burnett = Vazquez - injuries

that would have been the bigest waste of money.

munchman33
11-22-2008, 02:31 PM
Burnett = Vazquez + injuries - inability to pitch when it matters



balanced the equation for you.

Tragg
11-22-2008, 02:43 PM
The comparisons of Javy to Burnett are accurate, which is why Javy is undervalued.
At least Javy has pitched in post-season - and has a win.

luke4me1st
11-22-2008, 03:03 PM
The comparisons of Javy to Burnett are accurate, which is why Javy is undervalued.
At least Javy has pitched in post-season - and has a win.

I agree that Javy is undervalued by whitesox fans (since we think hes crap and he is average) but he is overvalued by other mlb fans and GMs just not to an extent of Burnett just because of their Ks. With that in mind once the top pitching free agents sign there will be huge demand for Javy services.

KyWhiSoxFan
11-22-2008, 03:11 PM
The comparisons of Javy to Burnett are accurate, which is why Javy is undervalued.
At least Javy has pitched in post-season - and has a win.

Vazquez at $11.5-million a year as a fifth starter is hardly undervalued. He is 32 and the way he finished last year indicates he may have seen his best days, for what that is worth. His best days makes him a .500 pitcher at bset (or worse, in looking at his career record).

Comparing Burnett to Javy in post season is a big stretch. Javy's win was 4 years ago (he did not win a game in the post season for the Sox, if you recall), and in his one post season win he gave up 9 hits in 6 1/3 innings and allowed 7 earned runs. Javy was never been a big game pitcher. He was lucky the Yankees scored so many runs for him in that game to give him one post season win in his 11-year career.

Burnett has not pitched in the post season because he was injured that year Florida made it.

I'm not advocating the Sox go after Burnett by any means, he's expensive and injury prone, but Javy needs to go to free up some money so KW can get some guy who can play.

dickallen15
11-22-2008, 03:37 PM
I agree that Javy is undervalued by whitesox fans (since we think hes crap and he is average) but he is overvalued by other mlb fans and GMs just not to an extent of Burnett just because of their Ks. With that in mind once the top pitching free agents sign there will be huge demand for Javy services.
Edwin Jackson made 400k last season. He had 9 starts against NY and Boston. He had more wins than Javy and a lower ERA. Javy did make 2 starts against Boston and NY and gave up 12 runs in 9 2/3 innings. How is it most say Jackson sucks at $400k but Javy is a bargain at $11.5 million? I really don't care how many strikeouts a pitcher gets if he gives up too many runs to win. Apparently, not everyone feels that way.

Tragg
11-22-2008, 03:43 PM
I'm not advocating the Sox go after Burnett by any means, he's expensive and injury prone, but Javy needs to go to free up some money so KW can get some guy who can play.
No objection to that.
But I don't want to pay that money + for AJ Burnett.

luke4me1st
11-22-2008, 03:48 PM
I would take Edwin over Javy in a hartbeat even if you take the $ out of the equation. He has a ponential to be great, Javys potentail is running out, but there are teams out there that think he still didnt peak therefore Kenny wont have trouble finding Javy a new home this winter.

btrain929
11-22-2008, 03:48 PM
I am in favor or getting rid of one of our aging slow sluggers because, while I like them all, we don't need to clog the base paths as much. Plus, with Thome and/or Dye not being back after this season, I wouldn't mind turning them into some younger talent and getting some salary off the books. I wouldn't mind taking some of that savings and taking a shot a Burnett. He will probably want too much money and years, but I wouldn't mind making an offer.

I don't know why everybody is saying this. Dye has a mutual option for 2010 for 12 million dollars. If he hits anything like he did in 2008, that's a bargain and he'll definitely be back. The only way he won't be here in 2010 is if he's traded this offseason or has an injury-riddled '09.

luke4me1st
11-22-2008, 03:50 PM
No objection to that.
But I don't want to pay that money + for AJ Burnett.

Strongly agreed, Kenny will spend the money on a solid leadoff guy. That is our biggest need by far and I dont think Ozzie can take one more yr without a proven table setter.

Craig Grebeck
11-22-2008, 03:52 PM
Edwin Jackson made 400k last season. He had 9 starts against NY and Boston. He had more wins than Javy and a lower ERA. Javy did make 2 starts against Boston and NY and gave up 12 runs in 9 2/3 innings. How is it most say Jackson sucks at $400k but Javy is a bargain at $11.5 million? I really don't care how many strikeouts a pitcher gets if he gives up too many runs to win. Apparently, not everyone feels that way.
Jackson was incredibly lucky. No K's, way too many BB.

Rdy2PlayBall
11-22-2008, 05:17 PM
I know Dye is worth the most on this team but what the heck? Do you realize how good he actually did? I don't think he is worth giving up with how well he actually can play right field and how good he can hit. I'd actually rather keep him over anyone Tampa can offer.

guillensdisciple
11-22-2008, 07:59 PM
I know Dye is worth the most on this team but what the heck? Do you realize how good he actually did? I don't think he is worth giving up with how well he actually can play right field and how good he can hit. I'd actually rather keep him over anyone Tampa can offer.

Carl Crawford, Scott Kazmir, Matt Garza? I think that is a pretty good group of players to offer for an aging outfielder who can't maneuver well on the base- paths.

DSpivack
11-22-2008, 08:08 PM
Carl Crawford, Scott Kazmir, Matt Garza? I think that is a pretty good group of players to offer for an aging outfielder who can't maneuver well on the base- paths.

Why do you think Tampa would give any of them up for Jermaine Dye?

JermaineDye05
11-22-2008, 08:09 PM
Carl Crawford, Scott Kazmir, Matt Garza? I think that is a pretty good group of players to offer for an aging outfielder who can't maneuver well on the base- paths.

I think the point was players that Tampa would OFFER for Dye.

I doubt Tampa would offer any of those guys for Dye.

guillensdisciple
11-22-2008, 08:17 PM
Why do you think Tampa would give any of them up for Jermaine Dye?

Contracts, I am assuming both will be demanding high money very soon (unless they have been signed for a while and I don't know about it), so why not get Dye who is going to be more then serviceable for the next three years?

DSpivack
11-22-2008, 08:59 PM
Contracts, I am assuming both will be demanding high money very soon (unless they have been signed for a while and I don't know about it), so why not get Dye who is going to be more then serviceable for the next three years?

And Dye comes cheaply?

Why in the heck would they trade young, cheap, good starting pitching for a an aging, slow and comparatively expensive outfielder?

Craig Grebeck
11-22-2008, 09:33 PM
Contracts, I am assuming both will be demanding high money very soon (unless they have been signed for a while and I don't know about it), so why not get Dye who is going to be more then serviceable for the next three years?
Not likely.

sullythered
11-22-2008, 10:29 PM
Not likely.
Jermaine Dye's offensive numbers have shown absolutely no sign of decline over the last five years.

Craig Grebeck
11-22-2008, 11:00 PM
Jermaine Dye's offensive numbers have shown absolutely no sign of decline over the last five years.
The past is no indicator of the future. It'd be foolish to expect there to be no drop off in the next three seasons.

CWSpalehoseCWS
11-22-2008, 11:05 PM
The past is no indicator of the future. It'd be foolish to expect there to be no drop off in the next three seasons.

Plus is it me or did he ground into more DP's last year than years before? I feel like he can never come through in the clutch. Always seems to be a solo shot or one that just adds to a lead.

Craig Grebeck
11-22-2008, 11:10 PM
Plus is it me or did he ground into more DP's last year than years before? I feel like he can never come through in the clutch. Always seems to be a solo shot or one that just adds to a lead.
No more than usual.

voodoochile
11-22-2008, 11:37 PM
The past is no indicator of the future. It'd be foolish to expect there to be no drop off in the next three seasons.

But when and how much? He might function at a high peak for the next two years then show a 10% decline in the third year.

He might continue to hit well into his early 40's if his legs hold up.

In fact, expecting a big drop off before the third season is probably a bad bet.

Lillian
11-23-2008, 01:09 AM
One other factor in all of these trade rumors and speculation is the need for another left handed bat. With the trade of Swisher, the Sox now have only one potent left handed hitter; Thome.
With the emergence of Alexei, and Quentin, added to Konerko and Dye the team is a little too heavy on right handed bats. Viciedo and Bechham will represent more of the same, as they become added to the mix.
A. J. and Betemit are the only two other players in the lineup who bat left handed, and unless K. W. can acquire another one, we may see more of Betemit than many of you would like. I personally like Betemit versus right handed pitching, as his numbers have been pretty good when batting left handed.

Wouldn't you suppose that somewhere in K. W.'s off season agenda is the acquisition of another left handed hitter?

champagne030
11-23-2008, 01:22 AM
In fact, expecting a big drop off before the third season is probably a bad bet.

No it is not. I love JD, but it's a good bet he's not worth it at that age.

WhiteSoxFan84
11-23-2008, 03:52 AM
I don't know if anyone already mentioned this but this rumor was announced during Chicago SportsCenter updates on ESPN 1000 some time last week as a report from Bruce Levine. His reports were that that Kenny Williams was talking to Tampa about a Dye for Edwin Jackson deal along with a Bobby Jenks and Javier Vazquez for Mike Pelfrey and Fernando Martinez deal.

I urge you all to ask yourselves these questions: when was the last time ANYONE spread a rumor about a move Kenny was going to make and it came true? And ask yourself when was the last time ANY move Kenny made was being rumored weeks, if not days, before it happened? We only hear about his moves hours before they're officially announced by the team. The only exceptions I can think of are middle tier players being signed as free agents like Dayan Viciedo, Octavio Dotel, or Scott Linebrink.

russ99
11-23-2008, 10:36 AM
I don't know if anyone already mentioned this but this rumor was announced during Chicago SportsCenter updates on ESPN 1000 some time last week as a report from Bruce Levine. His reports were that that Kenny Williams was talking to Tampa about a Dye for Edwin Jackson deal along with a Bobby Jenks and Javier Vazquez for Mike Pelfrey and Fernando Martinez deal.

I urge you all to ask yourselves these questions: when was the last time ANYONE spread a rumor about a move Kenny was going to make and it came true? And ask yourself when was the last time ANY move Kenny made was being rumored weeks, if not days, before it happened? We only hear about his moves hours before they're officially announced by the team. The only exceptions I can think of are middle tier players being signed as free agents like Dayan Viciedo, Octavio Dotel, or Scott Linebrink.

Also, Kenny's keeping things really quiet this year, probably due to how he got burned on Torii Hunter last season.

I don't think anyone knows what Kenny is going to do, and I like it that way. Wayyyy under the radar.:D:

champagne030
11-23-2008, 10:45 AM
I don't know if anyone already mentioned this but this rumor was announced during Chicago SportsCenter updates on ESPN 1000 some time last week as a report from Bruce Levine. His reports were that that Kenny Williams was talking to Tampa about a Dye for Edwin Jackson deal along with a Bobby Jenks and Javier Vazquez for Mike Pelfrey and Fernando Martinez deal.

I urge you all to ask yourselves these questions: when was the last time ANYONE spread a rumor about a move Kenny was going to make and it came true? And ask yourself when was the last time ANY move Kenny made was being rumored weeks, if not days, before it happened? We only hear about his moves hours before they're officially announced by the team. The only exceptions I can think of are middle tier players being signed as free agents like Dayan Viciedo, Octavio Dotel, or Scott Linebrink.

Garcia and Garland rumors to anyone and everyone were all over the place.

WhiteSoxFan84
11-23-2008, 12:11 PM
Garcia and Garland rumors to anyone and everyone were all over the place.

I never heard a whisper about Garland to the Angels. Maybe speculation about him being dealt ran rampid, but I don't remember the Angels being his destination. As for Garcia, yeh, maybe. But if we can only think of 1 deal out of the number of moves Kenny has made? I'd say that's pretty impressive.

It just seems like Kenny keeps things private and professional. And I'm sure players appreciate that a lot more than the contrary. Just look at the North Side,I don't think Felix Pie, Sean Marshall, Ronny Cedeno, and others know they're still on the Cubs. They've been rumored to be in so many deals that Jim Hendry has acknowledged, it's amazing. Some may respond and tell me we can say the same for PK and that is true. But by Kenny being so private, PK probably just ignores it all. With Hendry's public display of affection for guys like Brian Roberts, Jake Peavy, and now Mark Teahen (this came out of nowhere), the Cubs players I mentioned can't ignore all the talk.

guillensdisciple
11-23-2008, 12:35 PM
I have a feeling Crawford might be landing with the Sox by the beginning of spring training... don't take my word for it but it fills some of he voids we have left and falls under that "huge" trade category that the White Sox had in works.
A trade of Crawford for Dye isn't damaging for both parties as each player offsets the other with their strengths and Tampa Bay has enough speed as it is so why not add another power bat to drive the speed in.

Yet again, I am speculating, so this might just be false hope. One thing that I remember during the playofs is that Carl Crawford doesn't want to bat lead- off any longer so that might be one of the reasons we don't get him.

A middle of the order of Quentin, Thome, Crawford, and Alexei does have a very nice ring to it.

Tragg
11-23-2008, 12:39 PM
I have a feeling Crawford might be landing with the Sox by the beginning of spring training... don't take my word for it but it fills some of he voids we have left and falls under that "huge" trade that category that the White Sox had in works.

I don't think we can wait that late - who plays RF?

PalehosePlanet
11-23-2008, 12:42 PM
I don't think we can wait that late - who plays RF?

He's probably thinking CQ moves back to his natural position (RF), while Crawford slides into LF.

3 problems: 1) Still no CF on the team 2) Still no lead-off man & 3) JD is not enough in a trade to land Crawford.

guillensdisciple
11-23-2008, 12:43 PM
I don't think we can wait that late - who plays RF?


I believe either Dye or a younger and faster right fielder. This actually makes me wish the Sox pulled the trigger on the Holliday deal. I don't know if the talent Oakland gave up was true quality or not but for a young and amazing hitter like Holliday the trade of Dye and a few young ones would have been worth it.

cbrownson13
11-23-2008, 12:45 PM
I have a feeling Crawford might be landing with the Sox by the beginning of spring training... don't take my word for it but it fills some of he voids we have left and falls under that "huge" trade category that the White Sox had in works.
A trade of Crawford for Dye isn't damaging for both parties as each player offsets the other with their strengths and Tampa Bay has enough speed as it is so why not add another power bat to drive the speed in.

Yet again, I am speculating, so this might just be false hope. One thing that I remember during the playofs is that Carl Crawford doesn't want to bat lead- off any longer so that might be one of the reasons we don't get him.

A middle of the order of Quentin, Thome, Crawford, and Alexei does have a very nice ring to it.

I like Crawford, but he doesn't really fill any needs for us besides having speed and being left handed. He doesn't bat leadoff so his speed does us little to no good. And he can't play center field. I used to be very high on him but he just doesn't have the same appeal as he did in previous off-seasons.

guillensdisciple
11-23-2008, 12:45 PM
He's probably thinking CQ moves back to his natural position (RF), while Crawford slides into LF.

3 problems: 1) Still no CF on the team 2) Still no lead-off man & 3) JD is not enough in a trade to land Crawford.

That is where you go to free agency or even inside your own farm system. As much as it pains me to say it, we might have to take another gander at Jerry Owens. Speed at the lead-off spot is hard to find and Owens might just need more developing time. Then again, he looked REALLY bad up there last year, so that is more hope on my part.

Tragg
11-23-2008, 12:50 PM
I believe either Dye or a younger and faster right fielder. This actually makes me wish the Sox pulled the trigger on the Holliday deal. I don't know if the talent Oakland gave up was true quality or not but for a young and amazing hitter like Holliday the trade of Dye and a few young ones would have been worth it.
I thought you were trading Dye for Crawford. As others say, he doesn't really fill an acute need.
Isn't Holliday a rent?

southside rocks
11-23-2008, 01:14 PM
Garcia and Garland rumors to anyone and everyone were all over the place.

Those weren't based on anything KW said or did, though. The Garcia rumors started when Freddy made that comment about 'big games', pretty much the way that Vazquez became the subject of trade rumors this year after he seemed to choke in some big games.

As for Garland, he started/fanned the rumors himself, with his comments to the press that he expected to be traded, and he was sure the Sox wouldn't keep him.

IMO very different from the rumors that are based on actual deals in the works.

LoveYourSuit
11-23-2008, 01:25 PM
I have a feeling Crawford might be landing with the Sox by the beginning of spring training... don't take my word for it but it fills some of he voids we have left and falls under that "huge" trade category that the White Sox had in works.
A trade of Crawford for Dye isn't damaging for both parties as each player offsets the other with their strengths and Tampa Bay has enough speed as it is so why not add another power bat to drive the speed in.

Yet again, I am speculating, so this might just be false hope. One thing that I remember during the playofs is that Carl Crawford doesn't want to bat lead- off any longer so that might be one of the reasons we don't get him.

A middle of the order of Quentin, Thome, Crawford, and Alexei does have a very nice ring to it.


Crawford does not solve CF nor the leadoff position.

He refused to do both, and as bad as he plays LF I don't blame him for not wanting to play CF.

gr8mexico
11-23-2008, 01:26 PM
One other factor in all of these trade rumors and speculation is the need for another left handed bat. With the trade of Swisher, the Sox now have only one potent left handed hitter; Thome.
"IF" the SOX can some how trade Paul Konerko they should consider signing Adam Dunn. He would put up bigger numbers then Jim Thome and could DH in 2010.

turners56
11-23-2008, 02:40 PM
Crawford does not solve CF nor the leadoff position.

He refused to do both, and as bad as he plays LF I don't blame him for not wanting to play CF.

Crawford's a pretty good left fielder dude. He lead all left fielders in +/- last year with +23.

HomeFish
11-23-2008, 02:44 PM
"IF" the SOX can some how trade Paul Konerko they should consider signing Adam Dunn. He would put up bigger numbers then Jim Thome and could DH in 2010.

Dunn's always been a White Sox player at heart.

KyWhiSoxFan
11-23-2008, 08:11 PM
Dunn's always been a White Sox player at heart.

Dunn doesn't have much heart, for starters. And second, I don't want to see another over-priced, home-run-or-nothing hitter on the Sox.

WhiteSox1989
11-23-2008, 09:38 PM
I see PK being the DH after Thome, and I have no reason whatsoever for this thinking.

WhiteSoxFan84
11-24-2008, 04:13 AM
Dunn doesn't have much heart, for starters. And second, I don't want to see another over-priced, home-run-or-nothing hitter on the Sox.

That's because we already have an older version of him on our team, Thome. I'd like to see Dunn take Thome's spot after next season... Not many reliable, left-handed, sluggers are around anymore. lets see if i can name them all...
thome, dunn, hafner, giambi, ortiz, morneau, berkman (switch), matsui, pena, hamilton, delgado, beltran (switch), howard, teixeira, fielder, and the maybes: chipper, milton bradley, and fukudome.

Out of those guys, thome, giambi, ortiz, matsui, delgado, and chipper are WAY up there in age. So really, only 10-12 legit, under 35, left-handed sluggers are in the game today.

whitesox901
11-24-2008, 05:18 AM
I see PK being the DH after Thome, and I have no reason whatsoever for this thinking.

I agree, and I too have no idea to believe this

Thome25
11-24-2008, 08:56 AM
I don't know if anyone already mentioned this but this rumor was announced during Chicago SportsCenter updates on ESPN 1000 some time last week as a report from Bruce Levine. His reports were that that Kenny Williams was talking to Tampa about a Dye for Edwin Jackson deal along with a Bobby Jenks and Javier Vazquez for Mike Pelfrey and Fernando Martinez deal.

I urge you all to ask yourselves these questions: when was the last time ANYONE spread a rumor about a move Kenny was going to make and it came true? And ask yourself when was the last time ANY move Kenny made was being rumored weeks, if not days, before it happened? We only hear about his moves hours before they're officially announced by the team. The only exceptions I can think of are middle tier players being signed as free agents like Dayan Viciedo, Octavio Dotel, or Scott Linebrink.

Swisher to the Yankees was heavily rumored before it actually came true.......so that blows your theory that KW trades that actually come to fruition never get rumored first.

Thome25
11-24-2008, 09:00 AM
I'd like to see the Sox sell Dye when his value is still high. He's going to be up there in age in '09 and '10 and I'd hate to see the Sox stuck with him if his numbers decline or he gets injured. (Which is highly likely because he isn't exactly a spring chicken anymore and also has a history of injuries.)

Lillian
11-24-2008, 09:34 AM
The trade that would make the most sense for both teams would involve Dye for Crawford. Both of their contracts cover only the next two years, and neither is guaranteed anything for 2010, but there are options.

Jermaine Dye 2009 $12M 2010 $12M mutual option ($1M buyout)
C. Crawford 2009 $8.25M 2010 $10M club option ($1.25M buyout)

The trade gives the Rays a needed right handed power hitter at the expense of some of their excess speed.

The Sox get their needed lead off hitter, and another left handed bat.

The Rays don't like to tie up big money, and they have plenty of young players in the pipeline. A one year commitment to Dye, with a mutual option for the second year would make sense for them.

With the youngsters the Sox are accumulating, they may similarly not need to commit to anything beyond 2010.

I would love to see Crawford in Left, leading off, Anderson in CF, and Quentin in Right.
There could be other pieces involved, and other trades, but in the meantime, I wouldn't mind the following lineup:

LF Crawford
2B Getz
RF Quentin
DH Thome
1B Konerko
3B Betemit (Fields vs Lefties)
SS A. Ramirez
C A. J.
CF Anderson

Craig Grebeck
11-24-2008, 09:43 AM
The trade that would make the most sense for both teams would involve Dye for Crawford. Both of their contracts cover only the next two years, and neither is guaranteed anything for 2010, but there are options.

Jermaine Dye 2009 $12M 2010 $12M mutual option ($1M buyout)
C. Crawford 2009 $8.25M 2010 $10M club option ($1.25M buyout)

The trade gives the Rays a needed right handed power hitter at the expense of some of their excess speed.

The Sox get their needed lead off hitter, and another left handed bat.

The Rays don't like to tie up big money, and they have plenty of young players in the pipeline. A one year commitment to Dye, with a mutual option for the second year would make sense for them.

With the youngsters the Sox are accumulating, they may similarly not need to commit to anything beyond 2010.

I would love to see Crawford in Left, leading off, Anderson in CF, and Quentin in Right.
There could be other pieces involved, and other trades, but in the meantime, I wouldn't mind the following lineup:

LF Crawford
2B Getz
RF Quentin
DH Thome
1B Konerko
3B Betemit (Fields vs Lefties)
SS A. Ramirez
C A. J.
CF Anderson
Not happening.

gr8mexico
11-24-2008, 09:43 AM
The trade that would make the most sense for both teams would involve Dye for Crawford. Both of their contracts cover only the next two years, and neither is guaranteed anything for 2010, but there are options.

Jermaine Dye 2009 $12M 2010 $12M mutual option ($1M buyout)
C. Crawford 2009 $8.25M 2010 $10M club option ($1.25M buyout)

The trade gives the Rays a needed right handed power hitter at the expense of some of their excess speed.

The Sox get their needed lead off hitter, and another left handed bat.

The Rays don't like to tie up big money, and they have plenty of young players in the pipeline. A one year commitment to Dye, with a mutual option for the second year would make sense for them.

With the youngsters the Sox are accumulating, they may similarly not need to commit to anything beyond 2010.

I would love to see Crawford in Left, leading off, Anderson in CF, and Quentin in Right.
There could be other pieces involved, and other trades, but in the meantime, I wouldn't mind the following lineup:

LF Crawford
2B Getz
RF Quentin
DH Thome
1B Konerko
3B Betemit (Fields vs Lefties)
SS A. Ramirez
C A. J.
CF Anderson
Carl Crawford doesn't want to be a leadoff hitter.
Also no way in hell do the Rays trade Carl Crawford for JD.

cws05champ
11-24-2008, 09:48 AM
The trade that would make the most sense for both teams would involve Dye for Crawford. Both of their contracts cover only the next two years, and neither is guaranteed anything for 2010, but there are options.

Jermaine Dye 2009 $12M 2010 $12M mutual option ($1M buyout)
C. Crawford 2009 $8.25M 2010 $10M club option ($1.25M buyout)

The trade gives the Rays a needed right handed power hitter at the expense of some of their excess speed.

The Sox get their needed lead off hitter, and another left handed bat.

The Rays don't like to tie up big money, and they have plenty of young players in the pipeline. A one year commitment to Dye, with a mutual option for the second year would make sense for them.

With the youngsters the Sox are accumulating, they may similarly not need to commit to anything beyond 2010.

I would love to see Crawford in Left, leading off, Anderson in CF, and Quentin in Right.
There could be other pieces involved, and other trades, but in the meantime, I wouldn't mind the following lineup:

LF Crawford
2B Getz
RF Quentin
DH Thome
1B Konerko
3B Betemit (Fields vs Lefties)
SS A. Ramirez
C A. J.
CF Anderson
Crawford does not want to lead off....how many times has that been stated on this board. His speed is still there but it is declining slightly, he doesn't like the lead off spot and it would take more than Dye to get him. So we give up some younger talent that wouldn't even come close to sniffing the top 10, talent wise, in the Rays system? I just don't see why the Rays would do that trade....and if the Sox are going younger why are they giving up younger guys in the trade?

Lillian
11-24-2008, 09:58 AM
Ok. Nevermind.
However, I do think that Crawford is making a mistake about not wanting to leadoff. He would not be maximizing his value by insisting on batting somewhere else in the line up. Remember, he isn't guaranteed any money on his option laden contract. Why wouldn't he try to increase his value, instead of being so obstinate?

Craig Grebeck
11-24-2008, 10:02 AM
Ok. Nevermind.
However, I do think that Crawford is making a mistake about not wanting to leadoff. He would not be maximizing his value by insisting on batting somewhere else in the line up. Remember, he isn't guaranteed any money on his option laden contract. Why wouldn't he try to increase his value, instead of being so obstinate?
I don't know. It's not like there's a gulf of difference in batting 2nd vs. batting 1st. In your hypothetical situation, if we batted Getz leadoff and Crawford second it wouldn't matter. Crawford has posted his best numbers out of the two hole.

That being said, he's not coming here.

doublem23
11-24-2008, 10:07 AM
Dunn doesn't have much heart, for starters. And second, I don't want to see another over-priced, home-run-or-nothing hitter on the Sox.

A guy with a .400+ OBA isn't just "HR or nothing."

KyWhiSoxFan
11-24-2008, 11:14 AM
A guy with a .400+ OBA isn't just "HR or nothing."

Dunn batted .236 last year and had 122 BBs, giving him an OBP of .386. That, to me is a HR or nothing guy. He did hit 40, though.

But Dunn is like Thome: HR and walks, big salary, and a base clogger.

Thome batted .245 with 91BB, with an OBP of .362. I don't see a big difference between the two. Dunn made $13-million this year. That's a lot for a guy who hits .236.

voodoochile
11-24-2008, 11:38 AM
Dunn batted .236 last year and had 122 BBs, giving him an OBP of .386. That, to me is a HR or nothing guy. He did hit 40, though.

But Dunn is like Thome: HR and walks, big salary, and a base clogger.

Thome batted .245 with 91BB, with an OBP of .362. I don't see a big difference between the two. Dunn made $13-million this year. That's a lot for a guy who hits .236.

How many runs and RBI's did they contribute? I realize those are considered team based stats, but if you are doing your share of scoring or driving them in, you're doing something right and after all, runs are the name of the game...

oeo
11-24-2008, 11:45 AM
Dunn batted .236 last year and had 122 BBs, giving him an OBP of .386. That, to me is a HR or nothing guy. He did hit 40, though.

But Dunn is like Thome: HR and walks, big salary, and a base clogger.

Thome batted .245 with 91BB, with an OBP of .362. I don't see a big difference between the two. Dunn made $13-million this year. That's a lot for a guy who hits .236.

The big difference is, Thome is in the latter part of his career, while Dunn is in his prime. In other words, the Thome we saw last year was not the Thome we acquired, or the one we've seen. Why the hell would we want Thome in the last couple years of his career for ~5 more years? If we could find someone like Thome of 2006, then I'd be all for it.

KyWhiSoxFan
11-24-2008, 12:17 PM
I don't want Thome or Dunn, which is my point. A lot of times people just toss around numbers relating to batting, average, OBP, etc., and don't really connect dollars to it. Players are compared on a theoretical basis, as if money did not matter. It does. I try to keep those numbers in mind in discussions. I just looked at my checking account, and $100 seems like a lot of money. Why would anyone want to pay Dunn $13-million, let alone Thome $16-million?

A better metric (perhaps one exists, but I have not seen it) would be to compare runs scored, runs batted in, etc., to salary earned. If someone scores 80 runs and costs $5-million, that is a much better return on investment than paying someone $10-million to score 100 runs. Ultimately that is what we're talking about: Production and how much it costs. In today's economy, a GM worth their salt better keep that in mind.

oeo
11-24-2008, 12:22 PM
I don't want Thome or Dunn, which is my point. A lot of times people just toss around numbers relating to batting, average, OBP, etc., and don't really connect dollars to it. Players are compared on a theoretical basis, as if money did not matter. It does. I try to keep those numbers in mind in discussions. I just looked at my checking account, and $100 seems like a lot of money. Why would anyone want to pay Dunn $13-million, let alone Thome $16-million?

I know, I'm agreeing with you. Except for the fact that you're comparing one of the final seasons of Thome's career to the prime of Dunn's career. 2006 Thome would be well worth $16 million.

Dunn is putting up comparable numbers to a washed up Jim Thome. Definitely not worth the big bucks.

WhiteSoxFan84
11-24-2008, 01:58 PM
Swisher to the Yankees was heavily rumored before it actually came true.......so that blows your theory that KW trades that actually come to fruition never get rumored first.

How do you figure? I'm an addict to checking WSI, mlbtraderumors.com, espn.com, prosportsdaily.com, and even using google news search almost everyday to hear about things right away. never heard a word about swisher to the yankees until the day it happened.

oeo
11-24-2008, 02:11 PM
How do you figure? I'm an addict to checking WSI, mlbtraderumors.com, espn.com, prosportsdaily.com, and even using google news search almost everyday to hear about things right away. never heard a word about swisher to the yankees until the day it happened.

It wasn't heavily rumored, but there were rumors about the Sox and Yankees the Friday before the trade. It was a big rumor day, that also had Jenks and Javy going to the Mets for Beltran.

btrain929
11-24-2008, 02:11 PM
How do you figure? I'm an addict to checking WSI, mlbtraderumors.com, espn.com, prosportsdaily.com, and even using google news search almost everyday to hear about things right away. never heard a word about swisher to the yankees until the day it happened.

There was this:

http://www.whitesoxinteractive.com/vbulletin/showthread.php?t=107495

That was about 1 week before the actual Swisher trade.

WhiteSoxFan84
11-24-2008, 02:20 PM
I don't want Thome or Dunn, which is my point. A lot of times people just toss around numbers relating to batting, average, OBP, etc., and don't really connect dollars to it. Players are compared on a theoretical basis, as if money did not matter. It does. I try to keep those numbers in mind in discussions. I just looked at my checking account, and $100 seems like a lot of money. Why would anyone want to pay Dunn $13-million, let alone Thome $16-million?

A better metric (perhaps one exists, but I have not seen it) would be to compare runs scored, runs batted in, etc., to salary earned. If someone scores 80 runs and costs $5-million, that is a much better return on investment than paying someone $10-million to score 100 runs. Ultimately that is what we're talking about: Production and how much it costs. In today's economy, a GM worth their salt better keep that in mind.


Then you don't want to win. Batting average isn't as important as most people think. It's just what the TV broadcasts show you and people have become used to judging players by those numbers. You want the truth? Look at OBP and OPS. Those mean a lot more.

And your theory about comparing runs scored, RBIs, etc. to salary, is irrelevant. Look at Carlos Quentin and Alexei Ramirez, they probably have the highest values using your theory. But guess what? They're going to become free agents in a few years and get huge money if they keep up what they did last year. Then their value in your theory decreases, but their production doesn't. How does that work? Spoiler alert: it doesn't.

As for Thome and Dunn being base cloggers, you won't have a lineup 1-9 or 1-8 full of speed demons. The middle of your lineup, in a well-balanced, successful lineup, will consist of 1 or 2 or even 3 guys who are primarily station-to-station.

Dunn is beyond underrated. Look at how consistent he's been the last five years...
2004: 568 AB, 105 R, 46 HR, .388 OBP, 195 K
2005: 543 AB, 107 R, 40 HR, .387 OBP, 168 K
2006: 561 AB, 99 R, 40 HR, .365 OBP, 194 K
2007: 522 AB, 101 R, 40 HR, .386 OBP, 165 K
2008: 517 AB, 79 R, 40 HR, .386 OBP, 166 K


The strikeouts will always be there, no doubt. But look at that OBP and those home runs. Now look at the runs scored, and consider those runs were scored with Reds squads that were average at best. Sandwich him between Quentin, Dye, and/or Konerko and watch those numbers go up.

You guys can say whatever you want about his bad defense, how slow he is, how low his batting average maybe, this guy is as solid as a rock in the middle of any lineup. I'm a little surprised Billy Beane didn't save the guys he dealt for Matt Holliday and went after this guy instead. He's a perfect fit for what the A's look for.

WhiteSoxFan84
11-24-2008, 02:22 PM
There was this:

http://www.whitesoxinteractive.com/vbulletin/showthread.php?t=107495

That was about 1 week before the actual Swisher trade.

Read the title, did we get Robinson Cano and I missed it?
Guys throw up a million different trade rumors each offseason. One sticks and you tell me it's the norm? No. Hell, I wouldn't even say this one stuck because we didn't get the piece we were rumored to be getting. We dealt our guy to the right team, nice, but that's half of the story and not good enough.

voodoochile
11-24-2008, 02:47 PM
I don't want Thome or Dunn, which is my point. A lot of times people just toss around numbers relating to batting, average, OBP, etc., and don't really connect dollars to it. Players are compared on a theoretical basis, as if money did not matter. It does. I try to keep those numbers in mind in discussions. I just looked at my checking account, and $100 seems like a lot of money. Why would anyone want to pay Dunn $13-million, let alone Thome $16-million?

A better metric (perhaps one exists, but I have not seen it) would be to compare runs scored, runs batted in, etc., to salary earned. If someone scores 80 runs and costs $5-million, that is a much better return on investment than paying someone $10-million to score 100 runs. Ultimately that is what we're talking about: Production and how much it costs. In today's economy, a GM worth their salt better keep that in mind.

That only works so far. If you continue to outlay $5M for players scoring 80 runs while another team continues to outlay $10M for players scoring 100 runs and this goes all the way up and down the lineup which team will odds on win more games?

Sometimes you have to toss the "cost per run" crap out the window. Yes, it works to some degree - as in when deciding whether to go with one player over another, but if you can afford it, always go with the guys who perform better, regardless of cost.

jabrch
11-24-2008, 02:50 PM
Then you don't want to win.

That must be it.

Batting average isn't as important as most people think. It's just what the TV broadcasts show you and people have become used to judging players by those numbers.

Actually, what you can do when a pitcher throws you a strike is very important. What you do when pitchers make mistakes is less controllable

You want the truth? Look at OBP and OPS.

There are many truths. Each has its own bias. Your "truth" is biased in many ways. If you seek out truth in statistics, you need many many many numbers to get half the picture.

Dunn is beyond underrated.

Dunn will get 12mm + for a guy who has maybe 75 meaningful PAs per season. (his 40+ HRs and a few other times when he gets relevant hits). If he were on a halfway decent team, playing in a different park, that number would go down. I wouldn't pay Dunn the kind of money he will command - not for a DH who doesn't HIT well. (he walks just fine - when pitchers let him. But he's not a great HITTER)


You guys can say whatever you want about his bad defense, how slow he is, how low his batting average maybe,

Not maybe. We can. He plays horrible D. He is very slow. And his batting average, the number of hits he gets when he sees strikes, is unacceptable for the kind of salary he will command.

this guy is as solid as a rock in the middle of any lineup.

Solid as a rock...not sure how you quantify that. Lots of guys meet that definition. But I wouldn't go out and pay him 60mm for 5 years to do what we expect him to do. That money can be better spent on many other things.

I'm a little surprised Billy Beane didn't save the guys he dealt for Matt Holliday and went after this guy instead. He's a perfect fit for what the A's look for.

Apples to Oranges. First, Dunn is a FA, Holliday wasn't. Second, Dunn will get big $ and a long term contract, Holliday didn't. Third, if the As aren't a contender, they can trade Holliday off at the deadline EASILY for a top tier package. Fourth, Holliday is 10X the player Dunn is. And Finally, in case you haven't noticed it, Beane has recognized that a team of guys that wait for mistakes and slug them, but can't hit on their own, and don't catch/run/throw well won't win you much.


Dunn is an interesting player. He's a DH on a team that is in desperate need of power. He should be banned from donning a glove, and should not be considered by any team that doesn't have TONS of offensive talent in front of him so you can't just walk him and then behind him to make him of value.

WhiteSoxFan84
11-24-2008, 03:30 PM
That must be it.

it's part of it.


Actually, what you can do when a pitcher throws you a strike is very important. What you do when pitchers make mistakes is less controllable

well how about what you can do when a pitcher throws a ball? being able to take a close pitch is pretty powerful.



There are many truths. Each has its own bias. Your "truth" is biased in many ways. If you seek out truth in statistics, you need many many many numbers to get half the picture.

i was talking about the truth in terms of batting average, obp, slg, ops, etc. not in the game of baseball or in stats.


Dunn will get 12mm + for a guy who has maybe 75 meaningful PAs per season. (his 40+ HRs and a few other times when he gets relevant hits). If he were on a halfway decent team, playing in a different park, that number would go down. I wouldn't pay Dunn the kind of money he will command - not for a DH who doesn't HIT well. (he walks just fine - when pitchers let him. But he's not a great HITTER)

so 80+ walks a year are meaningless? hmmm..... ok... :scratch:


Not maybe. We can. He plays horrible D. He is very slow. And his batting average, the number of hits he gets when he sees strikes, is unacceptable for the kind of salary he will command.

12-14mm for 40 HRs and .370+ OBP is a lot of money? isn't that what we've been paying Thome for the last 3 years? i don't consider his production for us and what we paid him for it as being unacceptable.



Solid as a rock...not sure how you quantify that. Lots of guys meet that definition. But I wouldn't go out and pay him 60mm for 5 years to do what we expect him to do. That money can be better spent on many other things.

thingS? as in more than one? really? in an age where middle relievers are making 6mm+ and closers are making over 10mm per, how many thingS can you get for 12mm? 1 and 1/8th?



Apples to Oranges. First, Dunn is a FA, Holliday wasn't. Second, Dunn will get big $ and a long term contract, Holliday didn't. Third, if the As aren't a contender, they can trade Holliday off at the deadline EASILY for a top tier package. Fourth, Holliday is 10X the player Dunn is. And Finally, in case you haven't noticed it, Beane has recognized that a team of guys that wait for mistakes and slug them, but can't hit on their own, and don't catch/run/throw well won't win you much.

holliday will earn 13.5mm in 2009. i think we both can agree that dunn will sign for 12-14mm per. A's may end up losing Holliday for nothing (their history proves they can't/don't re-sign players that are in their primes, i.e. tejada, giambi, mulder, hudson, zito, haren, harden) or trading him and probably not getting back what they gave up to get him if they do so. dunn would've cost you no players at the same price you're going to pay holliday. i will agree with you that holliday is a better player than dunn, no question, but his salary will also be a lot higher than dunn's after the 2009 season.

Dunn is an interesting player. He's a DH on a team that is in desperate need of power. He should be banned from donning a glove, and should not be considered by any team that doesn't have TONS of offensive talent in front of him so you can't just walk him and then behind him to make him of value.

i hope that doesn't confuse people lol

btrain929
11-24-2008, 03:38 PM
Read the title, did we get Robinson Cano and I missed it?
Guys throw up a million different trade rumors each offseason. One sticks and you tell me it's the norm? No.

Easy there, tiger. In your post that I replied to, you said "you never heard a word about Swisher to the Yankees" until the day he was traded. So I was saying that yes, he was rumored to go to the Yankees right around the actual trade.

How do you figure? I'm an addict to checking WSI, mlbtraderumors.com, espn.com, prosportsdaily.com, and even using google news search almost everyday to hear about things right away. never heard a word about swisher to the yankees until the day it happened.

WhiteSoxFan84
11-24-2008, 03:40 PM
Easy there, tiger. In your post that I replied to, you said "you never heard a word about Swisher to the Yankees" until the day he was traded. So I was saying that yes, he was rumored to go to the Yankees right around the actual trade.

lol sorry if i came off that way.
no you totally proved me wrong on that one. but my original point is that kenny's moves usually are - and i hate to use this because it's become so overused around here lol - completely off the radar.

btrain929
11-24-2008, 03:48 PM
lol sorry if i came off that way.
no you totally proved me wrong on that one. but my original point is that kenny's moves usually are - and i hate to use this because it's become so overused around here lol - completely off the radar.

I hear ya, and I agree.

Jerome
11-24-2008, 05:58 PM
The Jermaine Dye we have come to know and love puts Tampa over the top. I would trade him if we could pluck one of their studly pitchers. I don't know much about Edwin Jackson though.