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View Full Version : Mike Mussina to retire, HOF material?


doublem23
11-19-2008, 07:57 PM
The Moose turns 40 next month, and won 20 games last year, but that's enough for him... http://www.nydailynews.com/sports/baseball/yankees/2008/11/19/2008-11-19_mike_mussina_tells_yankees_he_will_retir.html

Career stats: http://www.baseball-reference.com/m/mussimi01.shtml

twentywontowin
11-19-2008, 07:59 PM
He's going to be one of those guys on the bubble, but I think he absolutely deserves it.

Brian26
11-19-2008, 08:07 PM
Mussina racked up the quietest 270 career victories you'll ever see. I don't think he deserves to go in on the first ballot, but a career 3.68 ERA in the steroid era is pretty solid, as are the 17 straight double-digit win seasons. I think he deserves the HOF nod.

turners56
11-19-2008, 08:23 PM
Wow, the Yankees are even more depleted in the rotation now.

And no, I don't think he's HOF material.

doublem23
11-19-2008, 08:27 PM
And no, I don't think he's HOF material.

Reason? :dunno:

Not calling you out, just want to know what people see in this guy's resume that doesn't say "Hall of Fame."

LoveYourSuit
11-19-2008, 08:28 PM
Mussina racked up the quietest 270 career victories you'll ever see. I don't think he deserves to go in on the first ballot, but a career 3.68 ERA in the steroid era is pretty solid, as are the 17 straight double-digit win seasons. I think he deserves the HOF nod.


Add the American League factor and pitching in a launching pad in Baltimore for most of his career.

He is a sure bet HOF for me. My favorite modern day pitcher of all time. Can't wait for Kris Honel to make it up here with his version of the knuckle curve.

Daver
11-19-2008, 08:34 PM
Reason? :dunno:

Not calling you out, just want to know what people see in this guy's resume that doesn't say "Hall of Fame."

If Bert Blyleven is on the outside looking in, then Mussina has no business being in.

veeter
11-19-2008, 08:36 PM
Definite Hall of Famer. Consistent winner, not always on very good Baltimore teams. How cool is his baseball card going to look, with a twenty win season being his last. Never liked him because he always seemed to beat us. Class act and standout pitcher for a long time. Throwing in that he pitched in the steroid era, seals it for me.

veeter
11-19-2008, 08:37 PM
If Bert Blyleven is on the outside looking in, then Mussina has no business being in.I agree, because it's an absolute travesty that Blyleven is not in.

Brian26
11-19-2008, 08:38 PM
If Bert Blyleven is on the outside looking in, then Mussina has no business being in.

If Blyleven would have been lucky enough to actually pitch on some good teams, he'd have well over 300 wins and would have been in the HOF years ago.

sox1970
11-19-2008, 08:40 PM
Yes, he's a hall of famer. First ballot should never be a consideration. Either you are or you are not.

the1tab
11-19-2008, 08:41 PM
If Blyleven would have been lucky enough to actually pitch on some good teams, he'd have well over 300 wins and would have been in the HOF years ago.

Other than his years in New York, the exact same case could be made for Mussina. There were what? 3 good Baltimore teams while he was there? Consider his ERA and the era he did it in.

I'm in no way diminishing Blyleven's career; I think both are valid candidates.

California Sox
11-19-2008, 08:47 PM
Mussina doesn't have 300 wins. He doesn't have any Cy Young awards. He was never the best pitcher in his league or really that dominate. He was an outstanding player and a great gentleman, but I don't see him as a Hall of Famer.

Daver
11-19-2008, 08:47 PM
If Blyleven would have been lucky enough to actually pitch on some good teams, he'd have well over 300 wins and would have been in the HOF years ago.

So was that the logic in putting Don Drysdale in the hall while Billy Pierce will never see the inside of Cooperstown?

Look at the numbers they are very close.

PKalltheway
11-19-2008, 09:03 PM
If Blyleven would have been lucky enough to actually pitch on some good teams, he'd have well over 300 wins and would have been in the HOF years ago.
To be fair, Blyleven did pitch on some good Pittsburgh teams in the late '70's, and he did play a big role on two championship teams (1979 Pirates, and the 1987 Twins).

Brian26
11-19-2008, 09:21 PM
So was that the logic in putting Don Drysdale in the hall while Billy Pierce will never see the inside of Cooperstown?


I don't know. Their numbers are awfully close. Drysdale has the slight edge with ERA and lots more K's.

KRS1
11-19-2008, 09:23 PM
My favorite non-Sox pitcher (by far) until he wen to the Yanks. I learned how to pitch by watching him, and imitated his every action out there on the mound. I think he is Cooperstown material, but regardless of whether the voters agree, it was a career worthy of the highest praise, IMHO.

champagne030
11-19-2008, 09:41 PM
My favorite non-Sox pitcher (by far) until he wen to the Yanks. I learned how to pitch by watching him, and imitated his every action out there on the mound. I think he is Cooperstown material, but regardless of whether the voters agree, it was a career worthy of the highest praise, IMHO.

You could have done far worse. I threw a knuckle curve in high school before Mussina ever came on the scene. And he was an excellent fielder of the position. Off the top of my head, my two favorite non-Sox pitchers of the last 25 years are David Cone and Mike Mussina. Unfortunately, they both pitched for a time with the Yankees.

turners56
11-19-2008, 09:48 PM
Reason? :dunno:

Not calling you out, just want to know what people see in this guy's resume that doesn't say "Hall of Fame."

He doesn't have 300 wins. And like Daver said, Blyleven isn't even in. I doubt Moose has a chance. Plus, I don't know a 3.68 ERA is really hall of fame worthy.

PaleHoser
11-19-2008, 10:03 PM
Frank Thomas absolutely owned Mussina.

IMO, Mussina would have to wait in line behind Maddux, Glavine, Randy Johnson, Clemens (even with PED's, he played in Boston and New York), and maybe Pedro Martinez (?), from this era.

I agree that Blyleven belongs. I always thought Jim Kaat and Tommy John were underappreciated as well.

Daver
11-19-2008, 10:05 PM
He doesn't have 300 wins. And like Daver said, Blyleven isn't even in. I doubt Moose has a chance. Plus, I don't know a 3.68 ERA is really hall of fame worthy.

My opinion on the baseball HOF is a bit jaded, I wouldn't piss on it if it was on fire. Until they come up with a way to make the vote relevant and limit it to active journalists I will consider it little more than a joke.

Moses_Scurry
11-20-2008, 07:52 AM
Why the heck would he retire now?? He's only 30 wins away from the automatic HOF entry, and he's coming off a 20 win season!!

Eddo144
11-20-2008, 09:13 AM
My opinion on the baseball HOF is a bit jaded, I wouldn't piss on it if it was on fire. Until they come up with a way to make the vote relevant and limit it to active journalists I will consider it little more than a joke.
You're totally right, Daver. And while I would piss on it if there was a fire (if only to save all of the historical stuff in there), the BBWAA has really become corrupted. What's nice is that they're losing credibility lately (Edison Volquez getting Rookie of the Year votes when this is his third year is a travesty), so maybe things will change.

areilly
11-20-2008, 09:27 AM
Why the heck would he retire now?? He's only 30 wins away from the automatic HOF entry, and he's coming off a 20 win season!!

I'm sure we'll hear more in the upcoming press conferences and profile pieces but it's probably some combination of age, wanting to spend time at home/travelling/goofing off, and maybe some uncertainty about his place in the Yankees' future plans. Keep in mind that just last spring, Hank Steinbrenner wanted Mussina to spend the season in long relief.

On the other hand, he could easily sign a one- or two-year deal somewhere else - but what does he really have left to prove?

Eddo144
11-20-2008, 10:08 AM
Why the heck would he retire now?? He's only 30 wins away from the automatic HOF entry, and he's coming off a 20 win season!!
Yeah, but at this stage in his career, 15 wins in a season is a success. So he'd need two more successful seasons to hit 300. And it's not hard to imagine two 12-win seasons, is it? That would leave him needing three more seasons to get to 300 wins.

I just don't see it happening, barring him having Roger Clemens- or Randy Johnson-like success into his 40s.

Moses_Scurry
11-20-2008, 10:52 AM
Yeah, but at this stage in his career, 15 wins in a season is a success. So he'd need two more successful seasons to hit 300. And it's not hard to imagine two 12-win seasons, is it? That would leave him needing three more seasons to get to 300 wins.

I just don't see it happening, barring him having Roger Clemens- or Randy Johnson-like success into his 40s.

He just won 20 games last year! It's not a stretch by any means that he could win 15 the next two. Plus, if he were to win more in 2009, it would mean that he wouldn't need as many wins in 2010. Surely there are some good offense teams that would give him the opportunity to get the required wins. Hell, I'd take him on the Sox, and he would be the #4 at worst. He could easily get 15 wins/year for the next couple with the White Sox offense. If Floyd or Danks regress, he moves up the chain. More starts = more wins.

Personally, I don't care that much about it. I just hate the mediots saying "who knows if there will EVER be another 300 game winner?". I don't want the 300 game winner to become extinct, ever! I like the 300 game winner, and I root for the next one to achieve the milestone no matter what I thought of him in his earlier career. If Carlos Zambrano, a pitcher I despise, were at the 290 mark, I would want him to get 300. I would prefer that he is long gone from the Cubs by then, but even so, I would want it to happen.

The 300 win club is not big enough in my opinion. I would be in heaven if someone got to 400 wins, but I don't see it happening. Maybe if Maddux hit the roids and decided to go for it. I thought Clemens might try for it before the steroid stuff came down.

Eddo144
11-20-2008, 10:58 AM
He just won 20 games last year! It's not a stretch by any means that he could win 15 the next two.
Yeah, but his recent win totals go like this:
2004: 12
2005: 13
2006: 15
2007: 11
2008: 20

Why do you assume 2008 is the norm, and not the anomaly there?

I'd say, given his age and recent history, he's not likely to win 30 games in the next two years.

areilly
11-20-2008, 11:10 AM
He just won 20 games last year! It's not a stretch by any means that he could win 15 the next two. Plus, if he were to win more in 2009, it would mean that he wouldn't need as many wins in 2010. Surely there are some good offense teams that would give him the opportunity to get the required wins. Hell, I'd take him on the Sox, and he would be the #4 at worst. He could easily get 15 wins/year for the next couple with the White Sox offense. If Floyd or Danks regress, he moves up the chain. More starts = more wins.

Fifteen wins a year really isn't that easy (or that common) anymore. Most teams have one, maybe two starters who hit that mark, and a high-powered offense alone won't do it for you. Mussina's at about the point Maddux hit a few seasons ago - six innings, three runs every time out. Three innings is a lot of time to remove a guy from the decision.

Also, more starts does not always equate more wins. Roger Clemens' 1.87 ERA in 32 starts with the 2005 Astros only got him a 13-8 record.

soxinem1
11-20-2008, 12:27 PM
Other than his years in New York, the exact same case could be made for Mussina. There were what? 3 good Baltimore teams while he was there? Consider his ERA and the era he did it in.

I'm in no way diminishing Blyleven's career; I think both are valid candidates.

I agree, but also remember Moose is over 100 games + in the W/L column.

What does he have, like a .640 winning percentage?

Sure, he didn't win 20 until this year, but he was in the upper teens in wins each season during most of it.

Sure, I believe Blyleven belongs, but Mussina going in might help him too.

One thing I think is cool is him retiring now while he is still an excellent pitcher.

I'm so tired of watching the older guys hang on for dear life, like Carlton, Niekro, and Ryan (along with a few others) who had to be forced out because they chose to finish their careers as BP pitchers.

Moses_Scurry
11-20-2008, 01:23 PM
Fifteen wins a year really isn't that easy (or that common) anymore. Most teams have one, maybe two starters who hit that mark, and a high-powered offense alone won't do it for you. Mussina's at about the point Maddux hit a few seasons ago - six innings, three runs every time out. Three innings is a lot of time to remove a guy from the decision.

Also, more starts does not always equate more wins. Roger Clemens' 1.87 ERA in 32 starts with the 2005 Astros only got him a 13-8 record.

Well whether its easy or not, I don't think you can argue that he had at least a decent chance. Like I said, I don't care that much as he doesn't pitch for my favorite team, but to me there is something unsettling about retiring when you are so close to the milestone. It smacks of Barry Sanders. I was pretty pissed about that, even though I'm a huge Bears and Walter Payton fan. It just seems like a disservice. BUT, it's his choice, and he's earned the right to exit the game however he wants.

voodoochile
11-20-2008, 01:29 PM
270 wins, just short of 200 IP/Yr and a 3.68 ERA in the time he pitched should be more than adequate. I say yes, though it might not be first ballot. It will depend on who he is up against. Frank is likely to retire this off season too for example.

PennStater98r
11-20-2008, 01:32 PM
If Bert Blyleven is on the outside looking in, then Mussina has no business being in.


This makes no sense to me. He either deserves it or he doesn't. By saying that so-and-so isn't in - therefore, so-and-so doesn't deserve to go is just like saying so-and-so is in - therefore, so-and-so certainly deserves to go as well.

Both of these examples are ill in their logic.

voodoochile
11-20-2008, 01:33 PM
I'm sure we'll hear more in the upcoming press conferences and profile pieces but it's probably some combination of age, wanting to spend time at home/travelling/goofing off, and maybe some uncertainty about his place in the Yankees' future plans. Keep in mind that just last spring, Hank Steinbrenner wanted Mussina to spend the season in long relief.

On the other hand, he could easily sign a one- or two-year deal somewhere else - but what does he really have left to prove?

Not until next year he can't.

areilly
11-20-2008, 01:48 PM
Not until next year he can't.

Good point. Mussina seems too genuine to pull a Clemens, so happy trails to him. Although I won't miss Yankee fans showing up en masse on the South Side with that "Mooooooooooooooose" call every time he retires two batters in a row.

JUribe1989
11-20-2008, 05:04 PM
This is the dilemma I'm put in when considering whether Mussina is a HOFer or not. I'm more of a contribution to the game/overall dominance level than statistical thinker. This is why I subscribe to the way of thinking that Sandy Koufax is the best pitcher of all-time because the few years he was in the league, he was arguably the most dominant pitcher the league's ever seen.

My issue with Mussina is that the Mussina of the Yankees was in no way dominant. He lost a great deal of velocity and his strikeout numbers dropped considerably after his first year with the Yankees. He almost underwent a Hoffman-like transformation with his pitch selection. The Mussina of the Yankees is no HOFer to me.

The Mussina of the Orioles was one of the most dominant pitchers of the 1990s. He had 3 200+ strikeout seasons and was always robbed from getting 20 wins by an inept Orioles bullpen. His performances in the playoffs were mesmerizing. In that Orioles-Indians rivalry that was so fun to watch in the playoffs in the 90s, Mussina came to play. The best example of this I can recall was Game 3 of the 1997 ALCS when Mussina recorded 15 Ks in 7 innings.

Mussina of the Orioles = HOFer, Mussina of the Yankees = Solid starter, no HOFer

That's why I voted with him getting in, but not on first ballot.

TheVulture
11-23-2008, 06:31 PM
The career numbers are pretty good, but other than his first full year, he never had any outstanding seasons. Tough call.

Dan Mega
11-23-2008, 06:40 PM
I think he would belong in the Hall of Really Good. He had a great career.

jamokes
11-23-2008, 07:00 PM
Mike Mussina is today's Jim Kaat, Tommy John, Bert Blyleven or Billy Pierce. Above average pitcher with a long career but this is the baseball Hall of Fame.

If Mussina was in the NFL, yes he's a Hall of Famer, but he shouldn't be in baseball's Hall of Fame.........not yet.

jabrch
11-23-2008, 08:23 PM
Mike Mussina is today's Jim Kaat, Tommy John, Bert Blyleven or Billy Pierce. Above average pitcher with a long career but this is the baseball Hall of Fame.


I agree - 100%