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Sockinchisox
11-18-2008, 01:03 PM
http://mlb.mlb.com/news/article.jsp?ymd=20081118&content_id=3683215&vkey=news_mlb&fext=.jsp&c_id=mlb&partnerId=rss_mlb

Thome25
11-18-2008, 01:05 PM
And the Red Sawx love-fest continues. :puking: Man, I hate those assbags.

sox1970
11-18-2008, 01:06 PM
Pedroia deserved it. I don't understand the hate on the guy.

Craig Grebeck
11-18-2008, 01:06 PM
http://mlb.mlb.com/news/article.jsp?ymd=20081118&content_id=3683215&vkey=news_mlb&fext=.jsp&c_id=mlb&partnerId=rss_mlb
Should have been Cliff Lee, but a good selection nevertheless.

soxfan43
11-18-2008, 01:09 PM
Good pick, but TCQ didn't even finish top 5?

sox1970
11-18-2008, 01:13 PM
Quentin finished 5th.

soxfan43
11-18-2008, 01:15 PM
Nevermind, apparently TCQ finished 5th, but that article mentioned Krod instead.

SoxFan78
11-18-2008, 01:16 PM
I cannot really argue about TCQ's 5th place position. If he could of only been healthy during the last month of the season, I have a feeling he would of run away with this award.

sox1970
11-18-2008, 01:18 PM
I cannot really argue about TCQ's 5th place position. If he could of only been healthy during the last month of the season, I have a feeling he would of run away with this award.

Absolutely. If he would have been playing and finished with 40+ homers and 120+ RBIs, he would have won the MVP. Hopefully he learned not to punch his bat anymore.

champagne030
11-18-2008, 01:22 PM
http://mlb.mlb.com/news/article.jsp?ymd=20081118&content_id=3683215&vkey=news_mlb&fext=.jsp&c_id=mlb&partnerId=rss_mlb

:puking:

esbrechtel
11-18-2008, 01:28 PM
Pedroia was a beast last season...Stay healthy next year TCQ, I am convinced the Sox would have gone much deeper in the playoffs with a healthy TCQ (I know I am going out on a limb :redneck)

cleanwsox
11-18-2008, 01:36 PM
Gotta love Jason Bartlett and his 1 HR and 37 RBI's getting a 5th place vote.

Tampa voter?

pmck003
11-18-2008, 01:38 PM
I guess it was a weak year for the AL MVP. I don't think he was a bad choice relative to anyone else though.

twentywontowin
11-18-2008, 01:41 PM
The fact that Quentin didn't even get one first place vote is a joke.

If it wasn't for him this season, we wouldn't have even sniffed the playoffs. That's valuable at its best.

btrain929
11-18-2008, 01:47 PM
The fact that Quentin didn't even get one first place vote is a joke.

If it wasn't for him this season, we wouldn't have even sniffed the playoffs. That's valuable at its best.

I'm guessing voters prefer their MVP's to play 6 months of baseball, not 5.

Fenway
11-18-2008, 01:49 PM
Pedroia deserved it. I don't understand the hate on the guy.

Plus he is home grown through the Boston farm system. Just a joy to watch.

twentywontowin
11-18-2008, 01:57 PM
I'm guessing voters prefer their MVP's to play 6 months of baseball, not 5.

That aside, his value is measured in the fact that without him for those five months, the White Sox wouldn't have even been close to being a playoff team.

This is where the argument of how we measure the MVP comes into play. Should it be to the best individual statistics leaders overall, or how much they actually meant to their team and their success?

palehozenychicty
11-18-2008, 02:03 PM
Pedroia was really really good, and had the most consistent year out of everyone aside from Quentin who got hurt. Hating the Red Sox is one thing, but if you don't respect the way Pedroia plays, then I can't help you.

DSpivack
11-18-2008, 02:08 PM
Pedroia was really really good, and had the most consistent year out of everyone aside from Quentin who got hurt. Hating the Red Sox is one thing, but if you don't respect the way Pedroia plays, then I can't help you.

I just don't think a guy who's not even the best hitter on his team should get the MVP award.

russ99
11-18-2008, 02:11 PM
Should have been Cliff Lee, but a good selection nevertheless.

Lee?? Really? I'm of the mindset that pitchers have their own award.

Morneau got shafted. As much as we dislike the guy, he totally carried that team, and certainly was "more valuable" than Pedroia, who's really the 3rd or 4th best player on the Red Sox.

I guess the MVP is the most valuable to the East coast sportswriters.

The Milkman
11-18-2008, 02:13 PM
That's the thing we rational people have to understand:

1. TCQ played a month less than everyone else
2. He plays for the Chicago WHITE SOX
3. He doesn't play for BOS/NYY/LAA

5th is about right...

oeo
11-18-2008, 02:15 PM
Lee?? Really? I'm of the mindset that pitchers have their own award.

Morneau got shafted. As much as we dislike the guy, he totally carried that team, and certainly was "more valuable" than Pedroia, who's really the 3rd or 4th best player on the Red Sox.

I guess the MVP is the most valuable to the East coast sportswriters.

The closest Morneau was to the MVP was scoring the winning run in the All Star Game. He didn't deserve crap.

Yeah, that big East coast bias got the Twins. Too bad they had two guys in the Top 4. Meanwhile, Quentin (and I don't care that he missed the last month) finishes behind four guys, from two teams. It's questionable how you're the Most Valuable Player when you have more than one candidate from the same team.

That's the thing we rational people have to understand:

1. TCQ played a month less than everyone else
2. He plays for the Chicago WHITE SOX
3. He doesn't play for BOS/NYY/LAA

5th is about right...

Indeed. The biggest story from our great Chicago media on Quentin this year was that he might be on the juice. :rolleyes:

MHOUSE
11-18-2008, 02:30 PM
TCQ was the most valuable player to his team in 2008, but that's not what the award is about anymore. I don't mind Pedroia, but having a monster 2 weeks of Sportscenter highlights shouldn't be able to overshadow the fact that he was just as good as Youk or Drew were for that team. Take away his numbers and Boston still edges the Yankees. MVP? Get real. Take Morneau away from the Twins and they don't even sniff game 163, same for TCQ. These awards have become such a farce it's sickening.

doublem23
11-18-2008, 02:32 PM
Crock. Of. ****.

oeo
11-18-2008, 02:37 PM
TCQ was the most valuable player to his team in 2008, but that's not what the award is about anymore. I don't mind Pedroia, but having a monster 2 weeks of Sportscenter highlights shouldn't be able to overshadow the fact that he was just as good as Youk or Drew were for that team. Take away his numbers and Boston still edges the Yankees. MVP? Get real. Take Morneau away from the Twins and they don't even sniff game 163, same for TCQ. These awards have become such a farce it's sickening.

Well, according to the voting, Mauer was right there with Morneau...

I understand that Quentin missed the last month, but these results are an example of the writers not knowing who the hell to vote for. It makes no sense that the top four finishers are from two teams. How valuable were they really, when they had another MVP candidate right there?

And how the hell a closer finishes that high, I do not know. If K-Rod got a first place vote, Quentin should have gotten at least two.

chisoxmike
11-18-2008, 02:39 PM
Pedroia deserved it.

I don't get why people hate this guy so much. I'm all for Boston hate, but what has Pedroia done to deserve this angst?

Marqhead
11-18-2008, 02:39 PM
TCQ was the most valuable player to his team in 2008, but that's not what the award is about anymore. I don't mind Pedroia, but having a monster 2 weeks of Sportscenter highlights shouldn't be able to overshadow the fact that he was just as good as Youk or Drew were for that team. Take away his numbers and Boston still edges the Yankees. MVP? Get real. Take Morneau away from the Twins and they don't even sniff game 163, same for TCQ. These awards have become such a farce it's sickening.

What he said.

Marqhead
11-18-2008, 02:40 PM
Pedroia deserved it.

I don't get why people hate this guy so much. I'm all for Boston hate, but what has Pedroia done to deserve this angst?

Its not the players, its the writers. At least it is for me.

oeo
11-18-2008, 02:42 PM
Pedroia deserved it.

I don't get why people hate this guy so much. I'm all for Boston hate, but what has Pedroia done to deserve this angst?

I don't mind Pedroia, but I'm more upset with Quentin's finish. He should have finished at least in the Top 3. It doesn't make a whole lot of sense that there are four top MVP candidates from two teams.

Which in turn makes you question these writers' judgment. They can't even decide the MVP on two teams, let alone an entire league.

champagne030
11-18-2008, 02:55 PM
Pedroia deserved it.

I don't get why people hate this guy so much. I'm all for Boston hate, but what has Pedroia done to deserve this angst?

He was not deserving of the Gold Glove, so when there's questions if he's even the most valuable player on his own team people get upset that this is another con job.

turners56
11-18-2008, 03:01 PM
Mr. Overrated won. :shrug: Only because the entire field sucked ass.

Eddo144
11-18-2008, 03:03 PM
And the Red Sawx love-fest continues. :puking: Man, I hate those assbags.
Yeah, total Red Sox love. I'm sure you would have preferred a Twin to win it...er, no...?

Eddo144
11-18-2008, 03:07 PM
TCQ was the most valuable player to his team in 2008, but that's not what the award is about anymore. I don't mind Pedroia, but having a monster 2 weeks of Sportscenter highlights shouldn't be able to overshadow the fact that he was just as good as Youk or Drew were for that team. Take away his numbers and Boston still edges the Yankees. MVP? Get real. Take Morneau away from the Twins and they don't even sniff game 163, same for TCQ. These awards have become such a farce it's sickening.
You realize the only reason Morneau gets so many RBI is because he has an on-base machine in front of him, right? Morneau had the second most RBI opportunities of the last 25 years this year! On the season, he drove in just under 19% of all runners on base for him.

What percentage did Mauer drive in? Just under 19%.

I'd pick Mauer over Morneau because first baseman are more easily replaceable. Take Mauer off the Twins and they crash and burn.

khan
11-18-2008, 03:10 PM
The biggest story from our great Chicago media on Quentin this year was that he might be on the juice. :rolleyes:

I must have missed this. Where did you see this?

oeo
11-18-2008, 03:13 PM
I must have missed this. Where did you see this?

I believe it was some speculation from Steve Rosenbum over the summer.

But the point I was trying to make, is the Chicago media does not hype up White Sox players like the Boston and New York media does for their players. That's a huge reason our guys, for the most part, get ignored.

pmck003
11-18-2008, 03:32 PM
You realize the only reason Morneau gets so many RBI is because he has an on-base machine in front of him, right? Morneau had the second most RBI opportunities of the last 25 years this year! On the season, he drove in just under 19% of all runners on base for him.

What percentage did Mauer drive in? Just under 19%.

I'd pick Mauer over Morneau because first baseman are more easily replaceable. Take Mauer off the Twins and they crash and burn.

I was going to write something to the same effect; I think if Morneau had a "true MVP season" there probably wouldn't of been a playoff game for the SOX. Not that Morneau had a bad season, but a real great one worthy of an MVP probably would of won the division. I still think he was as good as anyone to finish second, which is why it just wasn't a strong year for an MVP.

To avoid any confusion, a healthy TCQ negates my whole argument.

khan
11-18-2008, 03:33 PM
I believe it was some speculation from Steve Rosenbum over the summer.

But the point I was trying to make, is the Chicago media does not hype up White Sox players like the Boston and New York media does for their players. That's a huge reason our guys, for the most part, get ignored.

Oh, I agree with you about the media polesmoking each and every scrub, and not giving the SOX players the respect they deserve. I also agree with you that the east cost media are a bunch of polesmokers, too. [Note that although the yankees had the most steroid cheaters in the Mitchell Report, few of their reporters bothered to write very much about it.]

I just wanted to know who it was that said/wrote that Quentin might be on the juice, so I can add him to my WHITE SOX's Enemies List. You need this list, so you can filter through all the bull**** that is written about the SOX in this town.

Dick Allen
11-18-2008, 03:33 PM
I understand that missing a month may detract from TCQ's vote popularity. But look how many votes Sabathia and Manny got playing just 1/3 of a season with their NL teams.

thomas35forever
11-18-2008, 03:42 PM
Pedroia deserved it IMO. As far as TCQ goes, I don't get why people are worked up over how he was voted. It happens, people. Move on.

kittle42
11-18-2008, 03:43 PM
I just wanted to know who it was that said/wrote that Quentin might be on the juice, so I can add him to my WHITE SOX's Enemies List. You need this list, so you can filter through all the bull**** that is written about the SOX in this town.

Hangar? :redneck

BadBobbyJenks
11-18-2008, 03:45 PM
How did a jockey win the MVP?

PaleHoser
11-18-2008, 03:48 PM
No disrespect to TCQ or his fans, but this should have gone to Joe Mauer. He won his second batting title, second in OBP, won the Gold Glove, Silver Slugger and found a way to nurse a pitching staff of rookies and unknowns to 88 wins.

If he played in New York or Boston they'd be casting statues of him now.

If you want to make the argument that Minnesota didn't play in the post-season, well the Red Sox finished second in their division too.

sox1970
11-18-2008, 03:55 PM
No disrespect to TCQ or his fans, but this should have gone to Joe Mauer. He won his second batting title, second in OBP, won the Gold Glove, Silver Slugger and found a way to nurse a pitching staff of rookies and unknowns to 88 wins.

If he played in New York or Boston they'd be casting statues of him now.

If you want to make the argument that Minnesota didn't play in the post-season, well the Red Sox finished second in their division too.

You can make an argument for several players, but 16 of the 28 voters thought Pedroia should win. There are two voters from each AL city, so apparently a lot of the voters outside of the AL East cities thought he should win.

soxinem1
11-18-2008, 03:58 PM
Hmmm.

83 RBI batting 1 or 2.

Scored a bunch.

Developed power while establishing himself as one of the best contact hitters in the game.

Near flawless defense and a master a the DP with a goof-ball SS next to him.

Tough to defend against and had 54 two-baggers.

Showed up to play and was consistent almost all year long.

I hate BOS as much as anyone, but he deserved it.

khan
11-18-2008, 04:09 PM
What MLB gets wrong is that there is a difference between a player who is the most valuable to his team, and the player who is the best player in the league.

Put Pedroia on the SOX, and put Quentin on the sawks:

Not only are each and every east coast media person solidly attached to TCQ's package, but the sawks likely win it all.

At the same time, a hypothetically Pedroia-led SOX doesn't sniff the playoffs.


To me, Hamilton and Quentin were the Most Valuable players to their teams. Pedroia and Youkilis and Mauer and Morneau could be considered the Most Outstanding Player, or the "best" player in the league.

PatK
11-18-2008, 04:23 PM
I'm guessing voters prefer their MVP's to play 6 months of baseball, not 5.

Ryan Howard finished higher than Quentin, and with his consitency this year, you'd thing he took a month or two off.

Eddo144
11-18-2008, 04:38 PM
What MLB gets wrong is that there is a difference between a player who is the most valuable to his team, and the player who is the best player in the league.

Put Pedroia on the SOX, and put Quentin on the sawks:

Not only are each and every east coast media person solidly attached to TCQ's package, but the sawks likely win it all.

At the same time, a hypothetically Pedroia-led SOX doesn't sniff the playoffs.


To me, Hamilton and Quentin were the Most Valuable players to their teams. Pedroia and Youkilis and Mauer and Morneau could be considered the Most Outstanding Player, or the "best" player in the league.
Hamilton was arguably the third best player on his own team, behind Kinsler and Bradley. Had he won the MVP, it would have been because writers couldn't wait to talk about him overcoming his addiction. (Incidentally, why is that a point in Hamilton's (and Brett Favre's) favor?)

khan
11-18-2008, 04:41 PM
Hamilton was arguably the third best player on his own team, behind Kinsler and Bradley. Had he won the MVP, it would have been because writers couldn't wait to talk about him overcoming his addiction. (Incidentally, why is that a point in Hamilton's (and Brett Favre's) favor?)
True. But a Texas team without Hamilton would likely suffer more from his absence than that of Kinsler or Bradley.

Kinsler or Bradley would be interesting choices for a Most Outstanding Player award, given to the "best" player, rather than the "Most Valuable" player.

Billy Ashley
11-18-2008, 04:51 PM
I really enjoy the outrage about this:

Pedroia wasn't the best player in the AL, but of the guys who were contenders he was clearly one of the best two, and that other guy isn’t Quentin:


WARP3:

Mauer: 11.8
Pedroia- 10.4
Morneau- 9.7 (a lot better than his crock of crap MVP year btw)
Youlilis- 9.3
Quentin- 8.9

VORP:

Pedroia- 59.8
Mauer- 57.1
Youkilis-53.4
Quentin-51.3
Morneau- 47.2

OPS+:
Quentin- 148
Youkilis- 143
Mauer- 137
Morneaue- 137
Pedroia- 122

Carlos Quentin was the best hitter of the group, but he also plays a very unimportant defensive position. Additionally, he’s pretty bad in left field. He had an excellent year, and missing that last month undoubtedly hurt him, but 5th seems like a good ranking. Youkilis the second best hitter on the list and played very good first and third this season, that said, his offensive line isn’t that spectacular for a first basemen. Very good, but not amazing. Ditto for Morneaue who really shouldn’t have sniffed second place, he should have been fourth or fifth, depending on how much you value solid defense at the lowest end of the defensive spectrum to awful defense at the 7th or 8th least important.

That leaves us with Mauer vs Pedroia. I’d have ranked them in that order actually, but I don’t think it’s an outrage Pedroia won. He was excellent in the field (he was likely the best or second best 2b in the AL this year depending on how much one factors his many more games than Mark Ellis, who beat him in +/-), he’s an amazing efficient base stealer and a very solid hitter, in particular for a second basemen.


The point in all this: Defense matters almost as much as offense. I doubt that's why the voters voted the way they did (I'm sure the scrappy little guy angle helped) but even if by mistake, the writers voted for a good candidate for MVP

doublem23
11-18-2008, 04:55 PM
I really enjoy the outrage about this:

Pedroia wasn't the best player in the AL, but of the guys who were contenders he was clearly one of the best two, and that other guy isnít Quentin:


WARP3:

Mauer: 11.8
Pedroia- 10.4
Morneau- 9.7 (a lot better than his crock of crap MVP year btw)
Youlilis- 9.3
Quentin- 8.9

VORP:

Pedroia- 59.8
Mauer- 57.1
Youkilis-53.4
Quentin-51.3
Morneau- 47.2

OPS+:
Quentin- 148
Youkilis- 143
Mauer- 137
Morneaue- 137
Pedroia- 122

Carlos Quentin was the best hitter of the group, but he also plays a very unimportant defensive position. Additionally, heís pretty bad in left field. He had an excellent year, and missing that last month undoubtedly hurt him, but 5th seems like a good ranking. Youkilis the second best hitter on the list and played very good first and third this season, that said, his offensive line isnít that spectacular for a first basemen. Very good, but not amazing. Ditto for Morneaue who really shouldnít have sniffed second place, he should have been fourth or fifth, depending on how much you value solid defense at the lowest end of the defensive spectrum to awful defense at the 7th or 8th least important.

That leaves us with Mauer vs Pedroia. Iíd have ranked them in that order actually, but I donít think itís an outrage Pedroia won. He was excellent in the field (he was likely the best or second best 2b in the AL this year depending on how much one factors his many more games than Mark Ellis, who beat him in +/-), heís an amazing efficient base stealer and a very solid hitter, in particular for a second basemen.


The point in all this: Defense matters almost as much as offense. I doubt that's why the voters voted the way they did (I'm sure the scrappy little guy angle helped) but even if by mistake, the writers voted for a good candidate for MVP

2 of the 3 stats you've listed have secret formulas, so they don't mean anything.

Here are the Doub Ranks for the guys in contention for the AL MVP...

1) Carlos Quetin - 64567576734647672767543767246756721767
2) Joe Mauer - 8
3) Kevin Youkilis - (-17)
4) Dustin Pedroia - (-56465168456165)

You can see why I'm outraged.

Billy Ashley
11-18-2008, 05:01 PM
2 of the 3 stats you've listed have secret formulas, so they don't mean anything.

Here are the Doub Ranks for the guys in contention for the AL MVP...

1) Carlos Quetin - 64567576734647672767543767246756721767
2) Joe Mauer - 8
3) Kevin Youkilis - (-17)
4) Dustin Pedroia - (-56465168456165)

You can see why I'm outraged.

I think all imperial evidence points to Quentin being an awful awful fielder. Not only that, he's not a good base runner. Or a particularly good base stealer. He also plays a position that means very little in terms of team defense.

Mauer and Pedroia on the other hand play very important positions very well. Both anecdotal (in they eyes of fans, fellow ball players and so on) and quantitatively (+/-, FRAA and so on) view them as very good fielders. Additionally, Pedroia stole 20 bases while only getting caught once, that has a decent amount of value as well.

Quentin is like Pat Burrell, that's not a bad thing- in fact, I with some luck and health he may one day amass all sorts of HR numbers, but that doesn't make him more valuable than the two guys who dominate VORP and WARP 3 this season.

Eddo144
11-18-2008, 05:02 PM
True. But a Texas team without Hamilton would likely suffer more from his absence than that of Kinsler or Bradley.

Kinsler or Bradley would be interesting choices for a Most Outstanding Player award, given to the "best" player, rather than the "Most Valuable" player.
That's some strange logic. So Kinsler and Bradley are better than Hamilton, yet losing them would hurt less than losing Hamilton?

oeo
11-18-2008, 05:05 PM
I think all imperial evidence points to Quentin being an awful awful fielder. Not only that, he's not a good base runner. Or a particularly good base stealer. He also plays a position that means very little in terms of team defense.

Mauer and Pedroia on the other hand play very important positions very well. Both anecdotal (in they eyes of fans, fellow ball players and so on) and quantitatively (+/-, FRAA and so on) view them as very good fielders. Additionally, Pedroia stole 20 bases while only getting caught once, that has a decent amount of value as well.

Quentin is like Pat Burrell, that's not a bad thing- in fact, I with some luck and health he may one day amass all sorts of HR numbers, but that doesn't make him more valuable than the two guys who dominate VORP and WARP 3 this season.

Do yourself a favor and stop studying that crap.

What the hell is a WARP3? Sounds like some sort of plane.

Tragg
11-18-2008, 05:24 PM
Carlos Quentin was the best hitter of the group, but he also plays a very unimportant defensive position. Additionally, he’s pretty bad in left field. He had an excellent year, and missing that last month undoubtedly hurt him, but 5th seems like a good ranking. Youkilis the second best hitter on the list and played very good first and third this season, that said, his offensive line isn’t that spectacular for a first basemen. Very good, but not amazing. Ditto for Morneaue who really shouldn’t have sniffed second place, he should have been fourth or fifth, depending on how much you value solid defense at the lowest end of the defensive spectrum to awful defense at the 7th or 8th least important.

That leaves us with Mauer vs Pedroia. I’d have ranked them in that order actually, but I don’t think it’s an outrage Pedroia won. He was excellent in the field (he was likely the best or second best 2b in the AL this year depending on how much one factors his many more games than Mark Ellis, who beat him in +/-), he’s an amazing efficient base stealer and a very solid hitter, in particular for a second basemen.


The point in all this: Defense matters almost as much as offense. I doubt that's why the voters voted the way they did (I'm sure the scrappy little guy angle helped) but even if by mistake, the writers voted for a good candidate for MVP

VORP is completely irrelevant for MVP. VORP considers the performance relative to position. That's not what the MVP is - it is best performer, or most valuable, regardless of position - not at your position.
OPS+ is a far better measure.
Yes, defense should be considered. But offensive performance should be looked at gross value, not discounted for the position you play, in the MP considerations

Billy Ashley
11-18-2008, 05:31 PM
VORP is completely irrelevant for MVP. VORP considers the performance relative to position. That's not what the MVP is - it is best performer, or most valuable, regardless of position - not at your position.
OPS+ is a far better measure.
Yes, defense should be considered. But offensive performance should be looked at gross value, not discounted for the position you play, in the MP considerations


Um, that's not true at all. If a league average OPS+ is 100, would you find it acceptable to have a 1b with an OPS+ of 103. Not at all.

The fact of the matter is that the value of offensive contributions certainly do take defensive position into consideration. Honus Wagner is one of the best players of all time, if he were a first basemen however, he'd be merely another hall of famer.

OPS+ is a flawed measure like any other. It for one thing, overvalues slugging and undervalues OBP. Additionally, it doesn't tell you how one does against his pears at his position. A DH with OPS+ of 105 is a waste of a roster spot, and 2b with the same numbers is worth 12 million dollars if his defense is worth while at all.

PennStater98r
11-18-2008, 05:36 PM
That's some strange logic. So Kinsler and Bradley are better than Hamilton, yet losing them would hurt less than losing Hamilton?

It makes sense to me. If you're in a line-up that has Hamilton getting on base all the time - and you hit behind him, you are going to get a better selection of pitches to hit. If you hit in front of him, and they can't afford to walk you, you're going to see better pitches to hit.

To give credit where credit's due, you still have to hit those pitches, but it really makes sense to me. I think that guys like Ludwick, Durham (when he was with SF) and Burrell hit better because of how careful they have to be with the Pujols, Bonds and Utley/Howards (note: Utley first half and Howard second half) of the world.

BainesHOF
11-18-2008, 05:46 PM
While a very good player, Pedroia is one of the worst MVPs ever.

Quentin would have won the MVP in a walk if he stayed healthy. Given Quentin's injury, I would have voted for Francisco Rodriguez in a weak year for the A.L. MVP.

Billy Ashley
11-18-2008, 06:07 PM
While a very good player, Pedroia is one of the worst MVPs ever.

Quentin would have won the MVP in a walk if he stayed healthy. Given Quentin's injury, I would have voted for Francisco Rodriguez in a weak year for the A.L. MVP.

No really, this is not one of the worst MVP seasons ever.... this is much more middle of the pack.


Now K-Rod would be possibly the worst pick ever.

Pedroia, Mauer or Youkilis would have been fine picks, the best two picks (Sizemore and A-Rod) were never going to win given how awful their teams were, and while I think they were the two best players in the league, neither had a good enough year for sports writers to dismiss their teams fortunes.

turners56
11-18-2008, 06:20 PM
I think all imperial evidence points to Quentin being an awful awful fielder. Not only that, he's not a good base runner. Or a particularly good base stealer. He also plays a position that means very little in terms of team defense.

Mauer and Pedroia on the other hand play very important positions very well. Both anecdotal (in they eyes of fans, fellow ball players and so on) and quantitatively (+/-, FRAA and so on) view them as very good fielders. Additionally, Pedroia stole 20 bases while only getting caught once, that has a decent amount of value as well.

Quentin is like Pat Burrell, that's not a bad thing- in fact, I with some luck and health he may one day amass all sorts of HR numbers, but that doesn't make him more valuable than the two guys who dominate VORP and WARP 3 this season.

Quentin had a positive plus/minus back in 07. He was actually one of the leaders in right field. I don't know if the plus/minus numbers for this year are out or not. I've searched, but haven't found them.

Eddo144
11-18-2008, 06:20 PM
It makes sense to me. If you're in a line-up that has Hamilton getting on base all the time - and you hit behind him, you are going to get a better selection of pitches to hit. If you hit in front of him, and they can't afford to walk you, you're going to see better pitches to hit.

To give credit where credit's due, you still have to hit those pitches, but it really makes sense to me. I think that guys like Ludwick, Durham (when he was with SF) and Burrell hit better because of how careful they have to be with the Pujols, Bonds and Utley/Howards (note: Utley first half and Howard second half) of the world.
Huh? But aren't the guys hitting behind Kinsler (Hamilton included) benefiting even more, since you're implicitly agreeing that Kinsler is better?

In fact, both Kinsler and Bradley had better OBPs than Hamilton, and Hamilton was the one getting the RBI. Your example describes Hamilton (benefiting from others in the lineup) better than Kinsler and Bradley.

turners56
11-18-2008, 06:22 PM
No really, this is not one of the worst MVP seasons ever.... this is much more middle of the pack.


Now K-Rod would be possibly the worst pick ever.

Pedroia, Mauer or Youkilis would have been fine picks, the best two picks (Sizemore and A-Rod) were never going to win given how awful their teams were, and while I think they were the two best players in the league, neither had a good enough year for sports writers to dismiss their teams fortunes.

Sizemore had a really good year, but he hit .260 something. Writers weren't going to vote for him even if the Indians made the playoffs. A-Rod ended up slipping in the end of the year, he had a very mediocre year for his standards. The only players who were out of the ordinary this season were Pedroia, Quentin, Hamilton and Youkilis.

Eddo144
11-18-2008, 06:39 PM
Sizemore had a really good year, but he hit .260 something. Writers weren't going to vote for him even if the Indians made the playoffs. A-Rod ended up slipping in the end of the year, he had a very mediocre year for his standards. The only players who were out of the ordinary this season were Pedroia, Quentin, Hamilton and Youkilis.
How about Mauer? Only the second batting title for a catcher ever.

And can someone, somewhere, enlighten me as to how Hamilton's season was so great? Is it just because he's overcome a drug problem? And if so, why does that matter?

ChiSoxIn06
11-18-2008, 06:49 PM
I understand that missing a month may detract from TCQ's vote popularity. But look how many votes Sabathia and Manny got playing just 1/3 of a season with their NL teams.


i dont like the man but he's got a point

EuroSox35
11-18-2008, 06:52 PM
LMAO @ people who voted for Morneau. Good job, you single handedly cost your team the division when you decided to crap your pants during the most important time of the year. Real valuable to your team there. If Quentin played for Boston and the same exact thing happened, he'd get more consideration, there's no doubt about it

EuroSox35
11-18-2008, 06:57 PM
I'm guessing voters prefer their MVP's to play 6 months of baseball, not 5.

Yeah, missing games automatically keeps you out of the running for awards. Good thing this doesn't apply for any other award though, since Longaria, who missed more games then Quentin, didn't have any trouble.

And the thought that defense played a role is laughable. Yes, I'm sure the morons who vote for these awards are really scratching their heads over the best flawed stats to try and gauge defense even though they probably don't even know it exists

SBSoxFan
11-18-2008, 07:04 PM
Morneau got shafted. As much as we dislike the guy, he totally carried that team, and certainly was "more valuable" than Pedroia, who's really the 3rd or 4th best player on the Red Sox.

I guess the MVP is the most valuable to the East coast sportswriters.

I'm guessing voters prefer their MVP's to play 6 months of baseball, not 5.

LMAO @ people who voted for Morneau. Good job, you single handedly cost your team the division when you decided to crap your pants during the most important time of the year. Real valuable to your team there. If Quentin played for Boston and the same exact thing happened, he'd get more consideration, there's no doubt about it

Right on EuroSox! I wanted to add that Quentin was only slightly less productive in September than Morneau.

Dick Allen
11-18-2008, 07:13 PM
i dont like the man but he's got a pointHuh? What'd I do to you?

decolores9628
11-18-2008, 07:17 PM
Huh? What'd I do to you?


Probably doesn't like Dick Allen as a person. Who am I to say though? Just an assumption

LoveYourSuit
11-18-2008, 07:20 PM
The fact that Quentin didn't even get one first place vote is a joke.

If it wasn't for him this season, we wouldn't have even sniffed the playoffs. That's valuable at its best.


We won the division by 1 game playing 163.

I think all 25+ men on the roster had to chip in to get it done.

Except for Boone Logan.

PatK
11-18-2008, 07:25 PM
Hamilton's RBI and HR's really slowed after the AS break.

Quentin had more HR's and almost as many RBI's despite missing the last month.

And although some consider it a silly stat, didn't Carlos lead the MLB in game winning hits, at least up to the point where he was injured?

How many less wins would the Sox have had without him? At a couple of points, he totally carried the team.

Yeah, they won the division without him. But with him, they wouldn't have had to win it in an extra game.

kittle42
11-18-2008, 07:41 PM
And although some consider it a silly stat, didn't Carlos lead the MLB in game winning hits, at least up to the point where he was injured?

I'm not sure, but I believe Capt. Jean-Luc Picard led in WARP3.

champagne030
11-18-2008, 07:43 PM
Hamilton was arguably the third best player on his own team, behind Kinsler and Bradley.

Maybe offensively, but not when defense is considered. And Pedroia is arguably not Boston's best player.

Tragg
11-18-2008, 07:49 PM
Um, that's not true at all. If a league average OPS+ is 100, would you find it acceptable to have a 1b with an OPS+ of 103. Not at all.

The fact of the matter is that the value of offensive contributions certainly do take defensive position into consideration. Honus Wagner is one of the best players of all time, if he were a first basemen however, he'd be merely another hall of famer.

OPS+ is a flawed measure like any other. It for one thing, overvalues slugging and undervalues OBP. Additionally, it doesn't tell you how one does against his pears at his position. A DH with OPS+ of 105 is a waste of a roster spot, and 2b with the same numbers is worth 12 million dollars if his defense is worth while at all.
I should have said OPS. OPS+ is weighted by position too.
I think VORP is commonly a misused statistic.

ChiSoxGirl
11-18-2008, 08:38 PM
Crock. Of. ****.

2 of the 3 stats you've listed have secret formulas, so they don't mean anything.

Here are the Doub Ranks for the guys in contention for the AL MVP...

1) Carlos Quetin - 64567576734647672767543767246756721767
2) Joe Mauer - 8
3) Kevin Youkilis - (-17)
4) Dustin Pedroia - (-56465168456165)

You can see why I'm outraged.

See, I'm with you. I said the exact same thing you did when I heard it on Home Plate this afternoon. Are the BBWAA telling people that the Red Sox wouldn't have gone to the playoffs without Pedroia? Me thinks the Sox wouldn't have gotten to the playoffs without TCQ. Just sayin'....

Brian26
11-18-2008, 09:00 PM
"Pedroia is kind of like the Red Sox version of Nick Punto."

:rolling:

turners56
11-18-2008, 09:04 PM
How about Mauer? Only the second batting title for a catcher ever.

And can someone, somewhere, enlighten me as to how Hamilton's season was so great? Is it just because he's overcome a drug problem? And if so, why does that matter?

I meant out of the ordinary as in not normal compared to their previous statistics. Although Pedroia wasn't really that much better than he was in 2007. Hamilton was nothing special in the second half. He had a good season, but a very streaky one at that.

WhiteSox1989
11-18-2008, 09:17 PM
Quentin should have gotten it over him, but I didn't expect him to.

MISoxfan
11-23-2008, 07:07 PM
A middle infielders offensive output isn't any more valuable than a corner outfielders. Maybe we should start giving more value to leadoff hitters homeruns too! After all most leadoff hitters don't hit many home runs!

soxrepublican
11-23-2008, 07:16 PM
This sucks. I thought Paulie would win the MVP.

WhiteSox1989
11-23-2008, 08:37 PM
I really believe that if Quentin didn't get hurt, he would have won it. Oh well.

BigP50
11-25-2008, 03:15 PM
I still think that TCQ or Cliff Lee deserved it the most

Billy Ashley
11-29-2008, 11:07 AM
A middle infielders offensive output isn't any more valuable than a corner outfielders. Maybe we should start giving more value to leadoff hitters homeruns too! After all most leadoff hitters don't hit many home runs!

Yeah because left fielders don't typically have OPS+ numbers around 110-120...

Of course it is more valuable! Not many players can play the middle infield, the average second basemen or short stops hits well below league average. Having a good offensive short stop is worth a whole hell of a lot more than a LF.

Think about it, who would you rather have on your team? Cal Ripkenor H. Baines? They were similar hitters, in fact Baines has a better career OPS+, but one played SS and that (streak be damned) is why he's in the Hall of Fame.