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View Full Version : Who In Your Opinion Is The Greatest 3rd Baseman In White Sox History?


Thome25
11-18-2008, 12:14 PM
Since 3B is currently up in the air for 2009, I got to thinking about who I thought is the greatest 3B is White Sox history.

Mine is a certain gold glove winning, grand slam hitting, #23 wearing player named Robin Ventura.

If Robin Ventura is the greatest 3B in White Sox history shouldn't he recieve some kind of honor?

Zisk77
11-18-2008, 12:22 PM
Hands down Norton. Hawk always said, "Norton! You the greatest"

Ventura in my Lifetime. Crede 2nd.

soltrain21
11-18-2008, 12:29 PM
Rockin' Robin trumps everyone. What a man's man.

Lorenzo Barcelo
11-18-2008, 12:30 PM
Chris Snopek or Herbert Perry.

Thome25
11-18-2008, 12:37 PM
Chris Snopek or Herbert Perry.

We've had some real winners since Ventura left. Crede was obviously a good one but, We had Greg Norton, Chris Snopek, Herbert Perry, Valentin, and Uribe.

If Gordon Beckham ends up staying a 3B once he reaches the bigs, I wonder which group he'll fall into when all is said and done. Will it be with the Snopeks, Perrys, and Nortons? or The Venturas, Meltons, Credes and Weavers?

chisoxfanatic
11-18-2008, 12:45 PM
I'm sorry; but, none of those other three can be mentioned in the same breath as Robin Ventura. He is the greatest 3B Chicago has ever seen.

Craig Grebeck
11-18-2008, 12:49 PM
If Gordon Beckham ends up staying a 3B once he reaches the bigs, I wonder which group he'll fall into when all is said and done. Will it be with the Snopeks, Perrys, and Nortons? or The Venturas, Meltons, Credes and Weavers?
Not a 3B.

Ventura.

Thome25
11-18-2008, 12:51 PM
I'm sorry; but, none of those other three can be mentioned in the same breath as Robin Ventura. He is the greatest 3B Chicago has ever seen.


I like your thinking on this one. He really is the greatest 3B in CHICAGO HISTORY not just White Sox history. Screw the Cubs and their Ron Santo love.

I want Mags back
11-18-2008, 12:51 PM
I unfortunately associate Buck Weaver with John Cusack, so he loses :tongue:

spawn
11-18-2008, 12:53 PM
Ventura.

kittle42
11-18-2008, 12:53 PM
Has no Chicago team 3B ever made the HOF? This has been a pretty crappy town for 3Bs, except of course for the immortal Ron Santo. That being said, Crede really has no place in the discussion.

Craig Grebeck
11-18-2008, 12:54 PM
I like your thinking on this one. He really is the greatest 3B in CHICAGO HISTORY not just White Sox history. Screw the Cubs and their Ron Santo love.
Ugh. Santo was better -- get over it. It doesn't take away from Ventura's goodness.

Thome25
11-18-2008, 12:57 PM
Ugh. Santo was better -- get over it. It doesn't take away from Ventura's goodness.


You get over it--That's just my personal opinion. I AM allowed to have a biased opinion. It is what WSI is about after all.

kittle42
11-18-2008, 12:57 PM
Ugh. Santo was better -- get over it. It doesn't take away from Ventura's goodness.

Even solely looking at the stats alone without adjusting at all for the 'ol juiced ball era, Santo's stats are better. Add in the fact that Santo played his entire career in Chicago, and he beats out Ventura.

Craig Grebeck
11-18-2008, 01:01 PM
You get over it--That's just my personal opinion. I AM allowed to have a biased opinion. It is what WSI is about after all.
If it's your prerogative to be wrong, then by all means proceed.

Thome25
11-18-2008, 01:01 PM
Even solely looking at the stats alone without adjusting at all for the 'ol juiced ball era, Santo's stats are better. Add in the fact that Santo played his entire career in Chicago, and he beats out Ventura.


Don't you mean the 'ol juiced PLAYER era? I remember all of the theories in the 1990's. "Maybe it's what the bats are made of." "Maybe the pitching is watered down do to the expansion era." "Maybe the baseballs are wound tighter."........Little did they know the PLAYERS were the ones who were juiced.

I'm no knocking your judgement on Santo at all but, as a side note I HIGHLY doubt Robin was juiced.

Thome25
11-18-2008, 01:03 PM
If it's your prerogative to be wrong, then by all means proceed.

See dude, that's the thing about an OPINION. You see, there is no right or wrong when dealing with someone's opinion.

Rohan
11-18-2008, 01:03 PM
Yeah kinda a silly poll..
It's like asking who's better looking: Rosie O'Donnel, Oprah, Jessica Alba, or Hillary Clinton.

Craig Grebeck
11-18-2008, 01:05 PM
See dude, that's the thing about an OPINION. You see, there is no right or wrong when dealing with someone's opinion.
The sky is orange. Apples are teal. The 2003 Chicago Bulls were the greatest team in NBA history.

IT'S MY OPINION.

Thome25
11-18-2008, 01:06 PM
The sky is orange. Apples are teal. The 2003 Chicago Bulls were the greatest team in NBA history.

IT'S MY OPINION.

And you're entitled to that if that's the way you really feel.......personally, I hope (and know) that you don't really feel that way.

Thome25
11-18-2008, 01:08 PM
Yeah kinda a silly poll..
It's like asking who's better looking: Rosie O'Donnel, Oprah, Jessica Alba, or Hillary Clinton.


True.....but there may be a small contingent out there who feels like there's someone other than Robin that they like better at 3B.

WTS I think the Sox should find a way to honor Robin though.

dickallen15
11-18-2008, 01:15 PM
Kevin Bell was awesome.

ChiSoxFan81
11-18-2008, 01:16 PM
The sky is orange. Apples are teal. The 2003 Chicago Bulls were the greatest team in NBA history.

IT'S MY OPINION.

So you're colorblind and have an affinity for bad basketball. Good for you!

Yeah kinda a silly poll..
It's like asking who's better looking: Rosie O'Donnel, Oprah, Jessica Alba, or Hillary Clinton.

http://i73.photobucket.com/albums/i225/chisoxfan81/rosie.jpg

champagne030
11-18-2008, 01:20 PM
I've read before that Willie Kamm was probably the best defensive 3rd baseman we've had on the Sox.

kittle42
11-18-2008, 01:32 PM
This bickering is pointless. The answer is a tie between Carlos Martinez and Kenny Williams.

PKalltheway
11-18-2008, 01:44 PM
It's definitely Ventura. I really appreciate what Crede has done for the Sox (and he also has a ring as well), but I have to give it to Ventura. If Crede was healthy and putting up the numbers he was capable of putting up in 2007 and 2008, I think it would be a different story. I believe that Bill Melton's health also got the best of him, too if I'm not mistaken.

whitesox901
11-18-2008, 01:47 PM
My time as a Sox fan ive only known Crede, Fields to be starters. But I know the legand of Ventura...so I voted for him.

chisox616
11-18-2008, 02:00 PM
Ventura has that nostalgic thing going for him as he was the starting 3B for most of my childhood. Of course, I didn't care about defense back then, but I still loved him! Robbie, Big Hurt, Ray Durham, Ozzie, and Albert Belle (for his short time with the Sox) all had a major influence on my current White Sox fan-hood.

Crede was great for us and really stepped it up in 05...I gotta give him props but my vote still goes to Robbie.

Britt Burns
11-18-2008, 02:02 PM
Outside of maybe 1B or DH (considering where you put Frank) this is the easiest all-time sox position to pick...#23 hands down, for timely hitting, a great, great glove, and an all-around good guy. With all due respect to Melton, Crede, etc, it all begins and ends with Robin.

Chez
11-18-2008, 02:42 PM
Since Junior Moore is not among the available choices, I'll go with Robin. Great player; great teammate.

Nellie_Fox
11-18-2008, 02:50 PM
Has no Chicago team 3B ever made the HOF? This has been a pretty crappy town for 3Bs, except of course for the immortal Ron Santo. The Cubs had Johnny Evers, Billy Herman, and one year of Rabbit Maranville. The Sox only had George Kell, who only spent one full season with the Sox, plus parts of each year before and after.

The sky is orange. Apples are teal. The 2003 Chicago Bulls were the greatest team in NBA history.

IT'S MY OPINION.You are entitled to your own opinion, but you aren't entitled to your own facts. The color of the sky and apples are both facts. Who is better between Ventura and Santo is an opinion.

aryzner
11-18-2008, 02:58 PM
http://photos-a.ak.fbcdn.net/photos-ak-sf2p/v323/148/6/13702776/n13702776_43315200_8158.jpg

turners56
11-18-2008, 03:07 PM
Joe Cah-Rede!

On a serious note, Ventura.

mccoydp
11-18-2008, 03:12 PM
Robin Ventura was the ****ing man, bottom line.

areilly
11-18-2008, 03:15 PM
Are any of us actually old enough to have seen them all? Looking only at the numbers here, but wow - I think Buck Weaver has Rockin' Robin beat.

Then again, if this is a contest of "Among former Sox 3B, whose 1992 Upper Deck card rules?" I have to give the nod to Ventura.

aryzner
11-18-2008, 03:18 PM
I'm pretty young and the first Sox 3B I can remember watching was Robin Ventura. He was my favorite player and growing up, out of all baseball players, I wanted to be Robin. To this day he is my favorite baseball player of all time and I think it just has to do with those childhood memories of him.

LITTLE NELL
11-18-2008, 03:29 PM
I saw all but Weaver, I'll go with Robin. After Nellie, Ventura is probably my next favorite Sox player.
It's a shame Melton hurt his back, wonder what kind of numbers he could have ended up with.

PaleHoser
11-18-2008, 04:00 PM
Ask HoFer Goose Gossage (http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=V2FklBE4Itc).

I would also like to see the poll amended to list Kenny Williams as a choice.

MeteorsSox4367
11-18-2008, 04:26 PM
A tip of my size 8 fitted Sox cap to those posters who mentioned Kevin Bell and Junior Moore.

IIRC, Bell was supposed to have a great deal of potential when he messed up his knee and effectively ended his career sliding into home plate in a game against Oakland.

As for my vote, as much as I'd like to go with Melton, since he was one of my first favorite players, Ventura gets the nod.

Good bat, good glove, good guy.

kittle42
11-18-2008, 04:55 PM
I'd really like to hear one justification out of any of the 7 people who have voted for Crede.

doublem23
11-18-2008, 04:57 PM
I'd really like to hear one justification out of any of the 7 people who have voted for Crede.

I didn't, but I'm sure it has to do with this:

http://mlb.mlb.com/images/2006/04/04/V62aALUG.jpg

Can't argue with results.

Craig Grebeck
11-18-2008, 05:41 PM
The Cubs had Johnny Evers, Billy Herman, and one year of Rabbit Maranville. The Sox only had George Kell, who only spent one full season with the Sox, plus parts of each year before and after.

You are entitled to your own opinion, but you aren't entitled to your own facts. The color of the sky and apples are both facts. Who is better between Ventura and Santo is an opinion.
Let's just call it a weak argument then.

Bucky F. Dent
11-18-2008, 06:16 PM
I've seen three of the four, and it's not even close. Rockin' Robin Ventura!

Eddo144
11-18-2008, 06:17 PM
I didn't, but I'm sure it has to do with this:

http://mlb.mlb.com/images/2006/04/04/V62aALUG.jpg

Can't argue with results.
Yeah, because the World Series is only rewarded to teams that start the franchise's best third baseman ever at third base.

PopsBrechtel
11-18-2008, 06:24 PM
Robin Rules :thumbsup:

Zisk77
11-18-2008, 06:37 PM
From a sheer offensive standpoint for his short stay eric soderholm deserves honorable mention. However his defense was measured in negative integers. As for his hands, he possessed the soft touch of a rapist.

Now I'm not old enough to have seen santo play so I don't know how he compares to Robin. If you've seen santo play than I guess i have to respect your opinion. However, i keep reading people spouting numbers which leads me to believe they haven't seen santo play either. Consider Miguel Cabrera's #'s and he's a horrible 3b.


Now consider Santo played his entire career in a band box. Robin played his Sox career mostly in the new Comiskey park with the fences back and the old upper deck configuration. The ball didn't carry anything like it does today. It was very much a pitchers park and not a launching pad that it is now.

Bucky Weaver was a few years before my time as well.:redneck

TommyJohn
11-18-2008, 06:51 PM
The Cubs had Johnny Evers, Billy Herman, and one year of Rabbit Maranville. The Sox only had George Kell, who only spent one full season with the Sox, plus parts of each year before and after.


?????

Nell, Evers and Herman were second basemen and Maranville was a shortstop.

The Cubbies do have Stan Hack to go along with Santo, though.

ChiSoxGirl
11-18-2008, 08:59 PM
Robin Ventura- I'd lay in traffic for that guy. :wink:

When he was at SoxFest last year, I became 14 again that whole weekend. Being in the seminar room when he was there, seeing him walking around the hotel, and being so giddy the entire time I was in the same room as him, it was like I became this starstruck pre-teen again. I still have his "Hot Corner" poster. Tell me you know which one I'm talking about!

Frater Perdurabo
11-18-2008, 09:11 PM
It has to be Ventura. Although Gold Gloves are not always an indicator of defensive prowess, in this case Ventura earned all six. He also was a good hitter who hit better in clutch situations, especially with the bases loaded. For those too young to remember (is that possible?), think of a left-handed Joe Crede, taking more 50 more walks each season, hitting 10 points higher, and no back problems.

TommyJohn
11-18-2008, 09:19 PM
I'd have to say Ventura-you can't sneeze at all those grand slams, including two in one game.

The White Sox' entries into the "great third basemen" sweepstakes are rather weak. Sure we have Ventura, and Melton might have had a few more good years without his back injury, but after that? Buck Weaver and Willie Kamm, sure. Joe Crede ranks because of his home run heroics, especially in 2005. Not much after that, though.

Daver
11-18-2008, 09:20 PM
Ken Harrleson already answered this, it's Greg Norton.

Brian26
11-18-2008, 09:24 PM
I'd have to say Ventura-you can't sneeze at all those grand slams, including two in one game.

The White Sox' entries into the "great third basemen" sweepstakes are rather weak. Sure we have Ventura, and Melton might have had a few more good years without his back injury, but after that? Buck Weaver and Willie Kamm, sure. Joe Crede ranks because of his home run heroics, especially in 2005. Not much after that, though.

Eddie Williams.

TommyJohn
11-18-2008, 09:28 PM
Eddie Williams.

Eddie Williams?

duke of dorwood
11-18-2008, 09:28 PM
Its Robin, but Pete Ward has to be in this discussion

Brian26
11-18-2008, 09:50 PM
Eddie Williams?

http://www.mlbfansite.com/files/cache/eddie-williams-chicago-white-sox-8x10-photo_fc6c3e76bd31a7c1af8bf920edee09ea.jpg

Nellie_Fox
11-18-2008, 11:56 PM
?????

Nell, Evers and Herman were second basemen and Maranville was a shortstop. I was looking at Hall of Fame by position, and somehow moved from third basemen to second basemen (Maranville is listed under both 2B and SS.) Just a boneheaded mistake. Here I actually go look something up instead of just pulling it out of my ass, and I still mess it up. :?:

WhiteSox5187
11-19-2008, 12:14 AM
Ventura was the best in my life time obviously, but I was pretty young when he played for us (I was ten when he left) so I can't point to anything very specific other than the fact I loved him as a kid.

But it's difficult to say since none of us saw Buck Weaver play and while at first glance his stats don't appear that impressive (he had a nice average though) it gets tricky since he's from the dead ball era when a guy like Joe Jackson was considered a power hitter but he never hit more than 12 HRs in a year, so the power numbers are out.

Craig Grebeck
11-19-2008, 12:16 AM
Ventura was the best in my life time obviously, but I was pretty young when he played for us (I was ten when he left) so I can't point to anything very specific other than the fact I loved him as a kid.

But it's difficult to say since none of us saw Buck Weaver play and while at first glance his stats don't appear that impressive (he had a nice average though) it gets tricky since he's from the dead ball era when a guy like Joe Jackson was considered a power hitter but he never hit more than 12 HRs in a year, so the power numbers are out.
For a nine season career, he was underwhelming at best. Below average OBP, league average SLG, not much else.

MHOUSE
11-19-2008, 01:19 AM
I voted for Crede because he has a ring and has been the starter for much of my Sox fandom, but I know it's really Ventura and he's winning the poll by a landslide anyways. As far as all-time Chicago 3B, you guys are forgetting Aramis Ramirez.

I also enjoyed the few times that The Milkman actually delivered.

Ziggy S
11-19-2008, 03:13 AM
Wow, what a challenge. Pick one of the guys that made a Sox fan out of me back in the day or the other three. Ventura, by a marathon.

TommyJohn
11-19-2008, 07:24 AM
Its Robin, but Pete Ward has to be in this discussion

Forgot about Pete Ward, but he only had a couple of good seasons there before his back injury. I believe after that he was shunted around between 3rd base and the outfield.

TommyJohn
11-19-2008, 07:26 AM
http://www.mlbfansite.com/files/cache/eddie-williams-chicago-white-sox-8x10-photo_fc6c3e76bd31a7c1af8bf920edee09ea.jpg

I looked him up-part-timer on the 1989, 69-92 White Sox. Damn, I have no memory of that guy.

Thome25
11-19-2008, 09:14 AM
I can't believe I'm old enough to be reading posts written by people who are too young to have watched Robin play.:redface:

Robin garnered almost 80% of the WSI vote. Not bad for a guy who started his career something like 0-for-56. (or 58)

SoxyStu
11-19-2008, 10:54 AM
I still have his "Hot Corner" poster. Tell me you know which one I'm talking about!

I do know what you are talking about; I had one of those, too! :gulp:

johnr1note
11-19-2008, 11:17 AM
Willie Kamm or George Kell. Best defensive 3b in Sox history. Kell could hit some too.

hi im skot
11-19-2008, 11:35 AM
I still have his "Hot Corner" poster. Tell me you know which one I'm talking about!

That's still hanging up in my room at my parents' house.

PaleHoser
11-19-2008, 12:52 PM
I looked him up-part-timer on the 1989, 69-92 White Sox. Damn, I have no memory of that guy.

He kept number 25 warm until Sammy Sowhat wore it. Other than that, I remember very little about him.

WhiteSox5187
11-19-2008, 01:44 PM
For a nine season career, he was underwhelming at best. Below average OBP, league average SLG, not much else.
People didn't even look at OBP back then, and it is near impossible to judge a guy's power numbers from the dead ball era as the ball was, ya know, dead. Further proof that numbers cannot tell the whole story.

Eddo144
11-19-2008, 01:58 PM
People didn't even look at OBP back then, and it is near impossible to judge a guy's power numbers from the dead ball era as the ball was, ya know, dead. Further proof that numbers cannot tell the whole story.
"Further proof"? Seriously? The only way you can tell that OBP wasn't as valued back then (which it wasn't) is to look at numbers.

Come on.

Overall, that's the problem with baseball today. Back when Weaver played, being able to draw walks wasn't as important as being able to make contact, since gloves, and therefore fielders, weren't as reliable. Slapping the ball around led to more hits, as even balls hit right at defensive players were far from certain outs. (Also, do you know why walks aren't considered to be part of batting average? Because Chadwick, the guy who developed the box score and therefore, batting average, was British, and didn't understand walks since cricket doesn't have an equivalent play.)

However, now, any ball hit at a fielder is pretty much a guaranteed out. Hence, walks are more important. However, fans, writers, and front offices (though most front offices have come around) still hold players like Wee Willie Keeler at the same value they would have in the 1910s. Football and basketball people understand that the game evolves over time, and that certain skills are more valuable now than they were in the past; why don't baseball people?

chisox77
11-19-2008, 02:04 PM
Overall, Robin Ventura, though my favorite 3B was Eric Soderholm.



:cool:

kittle42
11-19-2008, 02:22 PM
Football and basketball people understand that the game evolves over time, and that certain skills are more valuable now than they were in the past; why don't baseball people?

This is a great question. For some reason, though, I feel a team from 1910 in baseball would match up better with a team from 2008 than a 1950 football or basketball team would match up with a 2008 football or basketball team. is that just purely because football and basketball require, generally, much more athletic ability and players' bodies have changed so much? I don't know.

Eddo144
11-19-2008, 02:34 PM
This is a great question. For some reason, though, I feel a team from 1910 in baseball would match up better with a team from 2008 than a 1950 football or basketball team would match up with a 2008 football or basketball team. is that just purely because football and basketball require, generally, much more athletic ability and players' bodies have changed so much? I don't know.
Yeah, I think so. Just look at player sizes in football, in particular. William Perry was abnormally large in 1985, whereas today he'd be about average for a defensive tackle.

In the NBA, Wilt Chamberlain dominated like he did because he was the only seven-footer in the league. Bill Russell, the other great center of that time period, was only 6'8", only an inch taller than Scottie Pippen!

To nitpick, though, a baseball team from before 1947 or so would not match up as well as you think because of the color barrier. The cutoff is probably closer to 1960 as well, as it's not like every team brought in multiple black players right away.

FedEx227
11-19-2008, 02:41 PM
We've had this discussion both on my radio show and many times with friends.

Baseball, I believe, is the easiest to compare eras too, but it's still very difficult. No doubt it's the easiest though because much of the game is unchanged. However, I think you can go as far back as 1950-1960, but I don't think it's accurate to compare Hack Wilson to Albert Pujols, because so much has changed in the game in terms of speed, player nutrition, parks, bats, balls, etc.

Basketball and football, there's nothing. Absolutely no comparison. Reggie Bush would have 600 yards a game against Dick Butkus. Dwight Howard would drop 70 on Bill Russell, there is just no comparison in terms of speed of today's players, height of today's players and training of today's players.

Baseball though, I think you can make some decent arguments but like Eddo said, it's not very precise because different things were valued at different times. I think you can absolutely say Ted Williams would fare well in today's MLB, but I don't think Ty Cobb would.

But then you run into which type of comparison, Ty Cobb directly placed from his era into today. Or Ty Cobb with relation to today's teachings and the fact that growing up he would have played with people throwing 90 mph.

Eddo144
11-19-2008, 02:47 PM
Baseball though, I think you can make some decent arguments but like Eddo said, it's not very precise because different things were valued at different times. I think you can absolutely say Ted Williams would fare well in today's MLB, but I don't think Ty Cobb would.

But then you run into which type of comparison, Ty Cobb directly placed from his era into today. Or Ty Cobb with relation to today's teachings and the fact that growing up he would have played with people throwing 90 mph.
You've hit the nail on the head.

Sure, Ty Cobb's game might not translate well to today's game, but he developed his game according to what worked at the time.

Now, could Cobb have developed a game that relied less on speed and more on driving the ball? Probably, based on what we know of Cobb.

A very interesting topic, to me at least, is just how to judge Babe Ruth. On one hand, he was dominant in all phases of hitting. However, he played in diluted leagues, due to the color barrier. You also have people who say that a player with his physical build wouldn't keep up with today's more conditioned players, but remember, Ruth played during a time when no one really worked out in the offseason. If Ruth played today, no way would his team and agent let him treat his body the way he did.

#1swisher
11-19-2008, 03:40 PM
Robin Ventura:D:
Joe Crede

ChiSoxGirl
11-19-2008, 08:25 PM
That's still hanging up in my room at my parents' house.

Guilty as charged on that one, too! :redface:

I do know what you are talking about; I had one of those, too! :gulp:

YES! :bandance: I rarely ever spent money on posters when I was a kid because my dad never wanted me to tape things to the walls or doors, but the Hot Corner poster was definitely one I HAD to have!

ode to veeck
11-19-2008, 08:26 PM
Basketball and football, there's nothing. Absolutely no comparison. Reggie Bush would have 600 yards a game against Dick Butkus. Dwight Howard would drop 70 on Bill Russell, there is just no comparison in terms of speed of today's players, height of today's players and training of today's players.



Obviously you're too young to have seen Dick Butkus play or you would never have made such a totally clueless statement. Same for Bill Russell.

As far as athleticism goes, hitting a baseball is one of the most difficult things in all of sports, and there were folks that threw in the 90s in the old days too.

PhillipsBubba
11-19-2008, 09:08 PM
Who else????

http://www.vintagecardtraders.com/virtual/59topps/59topps-187.jpg

Brian26
11-19-2008, 09:41 PM
I rarely ever spent money on posters when I was a kid because my dad never wanted me to tape things to the walls or doors, but the Hot Corner poster was definitely one I HAD to have!

The great thing about that poster was that Ventura's glove was actually gold-colored.

ChiSoxGirl
11-19-2008, 09:48 PM
The great thing about that poster was that Ventura's glove was actually gold-colored.

Yeah, it almost looked metallic gold! It didn't hurt that I thought he looked totally cute in that poster, either. :wink: *sigh* I'm such a girl.

FedEx227
11-19-2008, 09:54 PM
Obviously you're too young to have seen Dick Butkus play or you would never have made such a totally clueless statement. Same for Bill Russell.



Actually no. I'm not clouded by the fact that Butkus was "fierce" and "intense", Reggie Bush would make him look like a bitch with one cut-back. I've seen clips of Butkus, there is absolutely NO way he could close on somebody like Reggie Bush and make a decent tackle not a chance. It's nothing against Butkus, but Bush is a LOT faster than ANYTHING ole Dick ever saw.

As far as Bill Russell, he was 6'8 225. Dwight Howard is 6'11 265. Howard would eat him alive, no matter how much Russell "wanted to win".

cheezheadsoxfan
11-19-2008, 09:56 PM
Who else????

http://www.vintagecardtraders.com/virtual/59topps/59topps-187.jpg

Nice to see a nod to the '59 team. :smile:

I voted Crede because of the ring. It was an emotional vote, tho.
Voting with my head it would have to be Robin.

WhiteSox5187
11-19-2008, 10:13 PM
We've had this discussion both on my radio show and many times with friends.

Baseball, I believe, is the easiest to compare eras too, but it's still very difficult. No doubt it's the easiest though because much of the game is unchanged. However, I think you can go as far back as 1950-1960, but I don't think it's accurate to compare Hack Wilson to Albert Pujols, because so much has changed in the game in terms of speed, player nutrition, parks, bats, balls, etc.

Basketball and football, there's nothing. Absolutely no comparison. Reggie Bush would have 600 yards a game against Dick Butkus. Dwight Howard would drop 70 on Bill Russell, there is just no comparison in terms of speed of today's players, height of today's players and training of today's players.

Baseball though, I think you can make some decent arguments but like Eddo said, it's not very precise because different things were valued at different times. I think you can absolutely say Ted Williams would fare well in today's MLB, but I don't think Ty Cobb would.

But then you run into which type of comparison, Ty Cobb directly placed from his era into today. Or Ty Cobb with relation to today's teachings and the fact that growing up he would have played with people throwing 90 mph.
It's probably because I'm exhausted and am therefore misreading your post, but it's not like they were throwing the ball in the 70s when Ty Cobb was playing. Guys were still throwing the ball in the 90s and a few were probably throwing in the upper '90s (guys like Matthewson, Johnson, etc). Also it's important to consider that if Cobb were playing today he'd be playing with a ball that is much more tightly wound leading it to be more "live." So his power numbers could go up concievably. Also Cobb faced a pitch (and presumably did rather well against it) that no one in today's game has faced (or at least not often): a spit ball. I think Cobb would do pretty good in today's game.

kittle42
11-19-2008, 10:22 PM
Actually no. I'm not clouded by the fact that Butkus was "fierce" and "intense", Reggie Bush would make him look like a bitch with one cut-back. I've seen clips of Butkus, there is absolutely NO way he could close on somebody like Reggie Bush and make a decent tackle not a chance. It's nothing against Butkus, but Bush is a LOT faster than ANYTHING ole Dick ever saw.

As far as Bill Russell, he was 6'8 225. Dwight Howard is 6'11 265. Howard would eat him alive, no matter how much Russell "wanted to win".

Gotta agree with you, in general. A team of best players of today in basketball and football would likely crush a team of the best of yesteryear.

FedEx227
11-19-2008, 10:33 PM
Gotta agree with you, in general. A team of best players of today in basketball and football would likely crush a team of the best of yesteryear.

In those two sports no doubt.

And it's nothing personally against those players of yesteryear, but these guys are groomed from age 12 to be dominant players in their sports, they have amazing nutrition, great teaching and just general human evolution of being taller, faster and stronger.

Reggie Bush runs a 4.0 40, he would BLOW past the stretched arms of Butkus.

chaerulez
11-19-2008, 10:55 PM
In those two sports no doubt.

And it's nothing personally against those players of yesteryear, but these guys are groomed from age 12 to be dominant players in their sports, they have amazing nutrition, great teaching and just general human evolution of being taller, faster and stronger.

Reggie Bush runs a 4.0 40, he would BLOW past the stretched arms of Butkus.

Yeah generally baseball has changed the least from the 1960s. Yes players are a little more athletic, but when you have chunky guys like Scott Eyre, Dennys Reyes, and Matt Stairs still playing the game today you obviously still don't need to be in the best shape even today. Throw Mantle, Mays and Aaron in their prime in this era and they'll most likely have the same stats especially with the smaller parks and lower mounds and the dilution of quality pitching in the game. And like someone pointed out pitchers were throwing in the 90s back in those days too.

But yeah football and basketball are much different. Players are so much more freakishly athletic in both those sports today it's crazy. LeBron probably would've been able to score 100 a game in the 1960's. The guy is 6'8" and 260. There is barely anyone in the world right now that can stop him consistenly from driving to the hoop. No way could Jerry West guard LeBron. Jerry West might not even be able to beat Devin Harris in a game of one on one.

If LT played in the 1960's he probably would've rushed for 4,000 yards and scored 35 TDs. Basically once the guy gets in the open field he would be gone. No one would be able to stop him as well, no one on a football field back then was fast enough to catch up to him. If Anquain Boldin played in the league in the 1960's he'd probably have 200 catches a season (assuming he there would be a QB that could get it to him, it was a different era). Yes the rules favor the passing game more now, but there would be no single corner in the league in the 1960's that could match up physically with Boldin. He would out muscle everyone to the ball and eat up these so called tough guys of the 60's. People seem to equate toughness to the "old school". Well people are pretty damn tough today. I'm not trying to put down people from those eras, players like Butkus and such deserve to be in the Hall of Fame. They were the greatest of their era. But athletic ability has evolved so much in the past few decades it's just absurd to treat the different eras the same.

Nellie_Fox
11-20-2008, 12:16 AM
Reggie Bush would have 600 yards a game against Dick Butkus.Before Butkus's knees were destroyed, he moved sideline to sideline as well as anybody who ever played the game. And remember, Bush would be playing behind an offensive line averaging around 250 pounds, not the kind of line he plays behind today, and going up against defensive linemen who were allowed to head-slap the offensive line. Butkus would have put him on injured reserve.

sullythered
11-20-2008, 03:34 AM
Robin. Ventura.

Eddo144
11-20-2008, 09:25 AM
Before Butkus's knees were destroyed, he moved sideline to sideline as well as anybody who ever played the game. And remember, Bush would be playing behind an offensive line averaging around 250 pounds, not the kind of line he plays behind today, and going up against defensive linemen who were allowed to head-slap the offensive line. Butkus would have put him on injured reserve.
I respectfully disagree, and that by no means is a knock on Butkus.

Dick Butkus was 6'3", 245 lbs. An average LB today, Hunter Hillenmeyer, is 6'4", 240 lbs. Reggie Bush goes up against guys like Butkus every week, as hasn't gone on injured reserve yet.

Now, the argument you should be making is that Butkus would be taking advantage of modern, advanced workout programs if he played today. Then, he'd probably be bigger and faster. But the Butkus of 1965 would not fare well in the NFL of 2008.

Nellie_Fox
11-20-2008, 10:42 AM
I respectfully disagree, and that by no means is a knock on Butkus.

Dick Butkus was 6'3", 245 lbs. An average LB today, Hunter Hillenmeyer, is 6'4", 240 lbs. Reggie Bush goes up against guys like Butkus every week, as hasn't gone on injured reserve yet.

Now, the argument you should be making is that Butkus would be taking advantage of modern, advanced workout programs if he played today. Then, he'd probably be bigger and faster. But the Butkus of 1965 would not fare well in the NFL of 2008.But you missed my point that Bush wouldn't have 340 pound linemen blocking for him if he had to play in 1965.

Eddo144
11-20-2008, 10:56 AM
But you missed my point that Bush wouldn't have 340 pound linemen blocking for him if he had to play in 1965.
Yeah, but for the most part, all the points are about Bush vs. Butkus in the open field. Lineman are irrelevant there.

Jim Shorts
11-20-2008, 11:08 AM
No love for Vance Law?

The only player jersey I've ever owned had Ventura on the back. That's the correct answer to this poll. Sadly though, I got the jersey about a month before Nolan Ryan clowned him.

Three more solid injury free years and Crede gives Robin a run.

chaerulez
11-20-2008, 11:36 AM
No love for Vance Law?

The only player jersey I've ever owned had Ventura on the back. That's the correct answer to this poll. Sadly though, I got the jersey about a month before Nolan Ryan clowned him.

Three more solid injury free years and Crede gives Robin a run.

Well the injury free years are key. But he is pretty much done as a White Sox. I don't know if we are suppose to compare only White Sox careers or entire careers, regardless I pick Ventura in both.

soxfan13
11-20-2008, 12:03 PM
I respectfully disagree, and that by no means is a knock on Butkus.

Dick Butkus was 6'3", 245 lbs. An average LB today, Hunter Hillenmeyer, is 6'4", 240 lbs. Reggie Bush goes up against guys like Butkus every week, as hasn't gone on injured reserve yet.

Now, the argument you should be making is that Butkus would be taking advantage of modern, advanced workout programs if he played today. Then, he'd probably be bigger and faster. But the Butkus of 1965 would not fare well in the NFL of 2008.

Isnt he injured right now. I think missing the last 5 weeks:scratch:

mikesouthside
11-20-2008, 12:26 PM
" The Milkman "

Railsplitter
11-20-2008, 01:45 PM
Ventua. he's the only guy I know of who held for more than a few seasons.

Eddo144
11-20-2008, 02:33 PM
Isnt he injured right now. I think missing the last 5 weeks:scratch:
Nellie's statement was that Butkus would put him on injured reserve. In the NFL, injured reserve means you are out for the rest of the year. The NFL doesn't have a disabled list like baseball does. Bush has been on the regular 53-man roster these last five weeks, but he hasn't been active on game day.

ode to veeck
11-21-2008, 12:07 PM
minnie minoso

soxinem1
11-30-2008, 01:16 PM
For longetivity, production, defense.

As an added bonus, he was homegrown.

Hands down, Robin Ventura!!!!:bandance::bandance:

soxrepublican
11-30-2008, 01:34 PM
Herbert "The Milkman" Perry. Or Bill Melton.

TheVulture
12-01-2008, 10:54 PM
Ventura's got Crede beat by a head on defense too.

NLaloosh
12-02-2008, 04:19 PM
Dayan Viciedo!

Am I too early on that?

asindc
12-02-2008, 04:41 PM
Yeah kinda a silly poll..
It's like asking who's better looking: Rosie O'Donnel, Oprah, Jessica Alba, or Hillary Clinton.

Jessica Alba.


Robin Ventura for 3rd. And yes, he was better than Santo.

Whitesox029
12-02-2008, 11:19 PM
Robin's my favorite Sox player of all time. He was and is a class act on and off the field, a great clutch hitter, a gold glove winner, and a great teammate, from what I've heard. The true all-around player.

Nellie_Fox
12-03-2008, 12:36 AM
Jessica Alba.Thanks for clearing that up. It was such a close call.

FarWestChicago
12-07-2008, 07:54 AM
Obviously you're too young to have seen Dick Butkus play or you would never have made such a totally clueless statement. Same for Bill Russell.

As far as athleticism goes, hitting a baseball is one of the most difficult things in all of sports, and there were folks that threw in the 90s in the old days too.

Before Butkus's knees were destroyed, he moved sideline to sideline as well as anybody who ever played the game. And remember, Bush would be playing behind an offensive line averaging around 250 pounds, not the kind of line he plays behind today, and going up against defensive linemen who were allowed to head-slap the offensive line. Butkus would have put him on injured reserve.You guys have it right. Reggie Bush would leave the stadium in an ambulance if he faced Butkus in his prime.

HomeFish
12-07-2008, 12:41 PM
Three more solid injury free years and Crede gives Robin a run.

I don't think so. Crede is just nowhere as good of an offensive player.

SoxNation05
12-07-2008, 02:12 PM
Josh Fields

ihatethecubs
12-08-2008, 02:39 AM
paul konerko.

surfdudes
12-13-2008, 01:10 AM
Vance Law. Maybe. No wait, Eric Soderholm.

California Sox
12-13-2008, 09:39 AM
Dayan Viciedo. Wait, maybe that should be Dayan Viciedo.