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ohiosoxfan
11-18-2008, 10:08 AM
Don't know if this has been brought up before, but a report has an "unknown" team offering Rafael Furcal a 3-year deal at $39 million. Could this be the reason KW has cleared some payroll with the Swisher trade? He could leadoff and keep Alexei at 2B for a few years. What does everyone think?

Sargeant79
11-18-2008, 10:13 AM
I think I wouldn't mind the idea with the contract being for only 3 years.

I also think it has about a snowballs chance in hell of actually happening.

esbrechtel
11-18-2008, 10:31 AM
3 year deal at that I could go for...that said, I don't think he would take it and I don't think its us.

But if it was I would be very happy with that...

FGarcia34
11-18-2008, 10:53 AM
I remember KW saying something about wanting to get YOUNGER and more athletic. I dont believe that a 31 year old shortstop is in the plans simply because we have a 27 year old prodigy ready to take the position by the wings...We need a center fielder, not a shortstop

guillen4life13
11-18-2008, 10:59 AM
I remember KW saying something about wanting to get YOUNGER and more athletic. I dont believe that a 31 year old shortstop is in the plans simply because we have a 27 year old prodigy ready to take the position by the wings...We need a center fielder, not a shortstop

Alexei can also play CF, remember? He was supposedly more comfortable out there than at 2B to start last season.

Taliesinrk
11-18-2008, 11:02 AM
Oh come on. We NEED a CF, 3B, and 2B as well. This would get us a second baseman (alexei). Let's not act like we would be against getting an all-star SS who is a solid lead-off hitter. Also, for the record, 31 is his reported age. Rumors speculate he may be younger.. but that really doesn't matter.

That said, I don't think we'd get him, and it'd be ideal to let AR move to SS if the Sox see him as their SS of the future... however, ideal would also be having ARod at 3B, Ichiro in CF, and Roberts/Kinsler/whoever at 2B.

clarkent
11-18-2008, 11:38 AM
If they did sign Furcal, Alexi could stay at second or play center field (he is a pretty good CF) Nix or Getz keeps 2b warm until mid year when Beckham comes in.

NLaloosh
11-18-2008, 11:54 AM
Furcal for leadoff and shortstop?

I'm for signing him for shortstop but I think he should bat 5th.



BTW, NOT HAPPENING.

esbrechtel
11-18-2008, 11:54 AM
N.O. to T.C.M. in C.F.

hi im skot
11-18-2008, 12:06 PM
N.O. to T.C.M. in C.F.

Word.

Jim Shorts
11-18-2008, 12:16 PM
If TCM is our starting CF in '09, I may take up soccer.

Tragg
11-18-2008, 12:32 PM
Leadoff hitter is our most glaring offensive need and has been for most of this century.
Are there any FAs that would help in that regard besides Furcal?

NLaloosh
11-18-2008, 01:15 PM
The Sox will sign Furcal and Ben Sheets. Trade a reliever for Crisp. Trade Javy for more young pitching.

They will hold onto Fields and have him battle with Betemit for 3rd base and later Beckham. Next year, Fields becomes the 1Bman with Thome and/or Konerko leaving.

Anderson stays as the 4th OFer until 2009 when Dye becomes the DH.

Jenks will be traded after the 2009 season when the Sox will have some closer options with young pitchers.

Zisk77
11-18-2008, 01:18 PM
Don't know if this has been brought up before, but a report has an "unknown" team offering Rafael Furcal a 3-year deal at $39 million. Could this be the reason KW has cleared some payroll with the Swisher trade? He could leadoff and keep Alexei at 2B for a few years. What does everyone think?


If this were to happen I would expect Furcal to play 2b, which was the position he broke into at in atl. It would make more sense at his age.

HomeFish
11-18-2008, 01:28 PM
ESPN had an article a few days ago that listed the White Sox as one of 4-5 teams interested in Furcal. However, we're not competitive in the big-name FA market, so I doubt this will happen.

khan
11-18-2008, 01:28 PM
Don't know if this has been brought up before, but a report has an "unknown" team offering Rafael Furcal a 3-year deal at $39 million. Could this be the reason KW has cleared some payroll with the Swisher trade? He could leadoff and keep Alexei at 2B for a few years. What does everyone think?

KW would have to clear some more payroll just to fit Furcal into the SOX's reported salary structure. As I understand it, if it were the ~$13M/yr, the SOX would then be hard-pressed to make any more additions beyond Furcal.

With holes remaining at CF, 2B or 3B [Betemit will likely take one of these two spots], a 5th starter to replace Contreras, a 6th SP-capable arm/long reliever, and a 2nd bullpen lefty to replace Logan, I HIGHLY doubt that Furcal will be here.

There simply are too many holes in the team, and too few dollars to go around.

35th and Shields
11-18-2008, 02:27 PM
KW would have to clear some more payroll just to fit Furcal into the SOX's reported salary structure. As I understand it, if it were the ~$13M/yr, the SOX would then be hard-pressed to make any more additions beyond Furcal.

With holes remaining at CF, 2B or 3B [Betemit will likely take one of these two spots], a 5th starter to replace Contreras, a 6th SP-capable arm/long reliever, and a 2nd bullpen lefty to replace Logan, I HIGHLY doubt that Furcal will be here.

There simply are too many holes in the team, and too few dollars to go around.

If the white sox get Furcal, Fields and probably Anderson will be starting in 09. I would prefer the sox get a legit CF or another starter but I don't know what the availability of either is.

Sargeant79
11-18-2008, 02:34 PM
If the white sox get Furcal, Fields and probably Anderson will be starting in 09. I would prefer the sox get a legit CF or another starter but I don't know what the availability of either is.

If they were to get Furcal, a legit leadoff hitter, I'm perfectly fine with Fields and Anderson in the starting lineup. Anderson's defense makes it worth it to give him a second chance at a starting job. As for Fields...call me crazy, but I don't think it would be that difficult for him to duplicate Crede's all star break numbers of .249 & 14 HRs, albeit with admittedly weaker defense.

If we're going to give 2 kids a shot as starters, I'd feel best about it being those two.

Domeshot17
11-18-2008, 02:42 PM
If Alexei did move to CF it would be interesting. He has great speed and range, It was tough to tell how he judges fly balls, but he has a cannon out there. Defensively, he would be no worse than Rowand was for us (basically average).

Would be a VERY balanced lineup

1 Furcal SS
2 Getz 2b
3 TCQ LF
4 Dye RF
5 Thome dh
6 Konerko 1b
7 Alexei CF
8 AJ C
9 Fields 3b

You get a guy with great speed and average and a gold glover at short to lead off. You get a guy who knows how to control the bat, move along runners, a very good situational hitter and a good defender at 2b in Getz. You keep the man 3, and you can live with the clog speed 4-5-6 because honestly very few teams have guys 4-5-6 who can run well. You break it up Alexei 7 and give him a ton of RBI chances behind those guys, AJ 8 is fantastic and Fields 9 isn't bad because you probably get good power, lower average, and decent speed out the 9 hole. It doesn't completely take us away from the All or Nothing offensively approach, but it does do ALOT to change it.

Also, we should be able to offer Furcal 13 a year fairly easily. We cleared a good amount of salary off the books this year. Lets say Jenks gets 5 mil in his first year of arbitration, that is fine, that is Uribe's salary. Swisher and Cabrera gone frees up almost 16 million, so it still leaves us 3 mil to fill a few more holes (bullpen). We either fill the 5th spot internally with Marquez or we trade out for it. I don't like Richard in the 5th role, the guy has a good career ahead of himself as a lefty specialist reliever, why ruin him in the rotation.

clarkent
11-18-2008, 02:46 PM
If Alexei did move to CF it would be interesting. He has great speed and range, It was tough to tell how he judges fly balls, but he has a cannon out there. Defensively, he would be no worse than Rowand was for us (basically average).

Would be a VERY balanced lineup

1 Furcal SS
2 Getz 2b
3 TCQ LF
4 Dye RF
5 Thome dh
6 Konerko 1b
7 Alexei CF
8 AJ C
9 Fields 3b

You get a guy with great speed and average and a gold glover at short to lead off. You get a guy who knows how to control the bat, move along runners, a very good situational hitter and a good defender at 2b in Getz. You keep the man 3, and you can live with the clog speed 4-5-6 because honestly very few teams have guys 4-5-6 who can run well. You break it up Alexei 7 and give him a ton of RBI chances behind those guys, AJ 8 is fantastic and Fields 9 isn't bad because you probably get good power, lower average, and decent speed out the 9 hole. It doesn't completely take us away from the All or Nothing offensively approach, but it does do ALOT to change it.

Also, we should be able to offer Furcal 13 a year fairly easily. We cleared a good amount of salary off the books this year. Lets say Jenks gets 5 mil in his first year of arbitration, that is fine, that is Uribe's salary. Swisher and Cabrera gone frees up almost 16 million, so it still leaves us 3 mil to fill a few more holes (bullpen). We either fill the 5th spot internally with Marquez or we trade out for it. I don't like Richard in the 5th role, the guy has a good career ahead of himself as a lefty specialist reliever, why ruin him in the rotation.

Keep in mind they also get Crede's 5 million off the books.

dickallen15
11-18-2008, 02:53 PM
KW would have to clear some more payroll just to fit Furcal into the SOX's reported salary structure. As I understand it, if it were the ~$13M/yr, the SOX would then be hard-pressed to make any more additions beyond Furcal.

With holes remaining at CF, 2B or 3B [Betemit will likely take one of these two spots], a 5th starter to replace Contreras, a 6th SP-capable arm/long reliever, and a 2nd bullpen lefty to replace Logan, I HIGHLY doubt that Furcal will be here.

There simply are too many holes in the team, and too few dollars to go around.
Griffey-gone. Cabrera-gone. Uribe-gone. Swisher-gone. Hall-gone. Crede-gone. 2 home playoff games, a 10% ticket price increase. There's plenty of money. Don't forget, the White Sox were willing to pay Torii Hunter a ton. I don't think they will go after Furcal though.

esbrechtel
11-18-2008, 02:59 PM
I agree that I would have no problem with Anderson hitting 9th and Fields hitting 8th

Lineup

Furcal-SS
AJ-C
TCQ-LF
Thome-DH
Dye-RF
Konerko-1B
TCM-2B
Fields-3B
Anderson-CF

Domeshot17
11-18-2008, 03:14 PM
I agree that I would have no problem with Anderson hitting 9th and Fields hitting 8th

Lineup

Furcal-SS
AJ-C
TCQ-LF
Thome-DH
Dye-RF
Konerko-1B
TCM-2B
Fields-3B
Anderson-CF

while I would prefer Alexei in CF and Getz in 2b because it balances the lineup, we would have the best up the middle defense in baseball (if only AJ could throw someone out)

russ99
11-18-2008, 03:15 PM
I agree that I would have no problem with Anderson hitting 9th and Fields hitting 8th


I would. A.J. is not a #2 hitter.

We need a CF who can hit, period. One who can hit in the 1 or 2 spot would be even better.

khan
11-18-2008, 04:17 PM
Griffey-gone. Cabrera-gone. Uribe-gone. Swisher-gone. Hall-gone. Crede-gone. 2 home playoff games, a 10% ticket price increase. There's plenty of money. Don't forget, the White Sox were willing to pay Torii Hunter a ton.

I wouldn't be too sure about this, if I were you. I've read in a few places that the SOX had $99M commited to 13 players for 2009. So: Griffey, Cabrera, Uribe, Hall, and Crede weren't included in the $99M.

Only Swisher's salary was included in the $99M figure.

I'd also read that the SOX's budget for player salaries was around $114M for 2009. So, based on what I've read, there really isn't all that much money left.

khan
11-18-2008, 04:20 PM
Also, we should be able to offer Furcal 13 a year fairly easily. We cleared a good amount of salary off the books this year.
And there was still $99M commited to 13 players for 2009, before Swisher was traded.

Lets say Jenks gets 5 mil in his first year of arbitration, that is fine, that is Uribe's salary.
Good point: It's now $104M, plus Betemit & Nix, minus Swisher's salary.


Swisher and Cabrera gone frees up almost 16 million, so it still leaves us 3 mil to fill a few more holes (bullpen).
From what I've read, this is incorrect.

We either fill the 5th spot internally with Marquez or we trade out for it. I don't like Richard in the 5th role, the guy has a good career ahead of himself as a lefty specialist reliever, why ruin him in the rotation.
Why have ANY unvetted pitchers in the rotation? That's just a whole lotta bad, right there!

oeo
11-18-2008, 04:21 PM
If Alexei did move to CF it would be interesting. He has great speed and range, It was tough to tell how he judges fly balls, but he has a cannon out there.

I have no idea how people have this terrible feeling of Alexei in CF. How many times did he play there, five? The only thing I remember not liking was that he was very tentative when coming up on the warning track. Maybe that was just too long ago for me to remember the bad, though. :shrug:

I also remember that wild throw to catch somebody trying to stretch a single in right center into a double. :o: That was insane; Alexei is one of a kind.

Tragg
11-18-2008, 04:25 PM
I would. A.J. is not a #2 hitter.

We need a CF who can hit, period. One who can hit in the 1 or 2 spot would be even better.
We need defense at SS and CF first and foremost and then worry about O.
We need to get O out of, say, 3B, a corner position, which we didn't last year.

dickallen15
11-18-2008, 04:30 PM
I wouldn't be too sure about this, if I were you. I've read in a few places that the SOX had $99M commited to 13 players for 2009. So: Griffey, Cabrera, Uribe, Hall, and Crede weren't included in the $99M.

Only Swisher's salary was included in the $99M figure.

I'd also read that the SOX's budget for player salaries was around $114M for 2009. So, based on what I've read, there really isn't all that much money left.

According to Ken Rosenthal, its $92 million for 11 players right now. Assuming Jenks gets $5 million, its $97 million for 12 players. Also consider the White Sox went into last season with a $121 million payroll. Raising ticket prices usually means the payroll will go higher. There's plenty of money, especially if they can pawn off another of their big contracts.

khan
11-18-2008, 04:43 PM
According to Ken Rosenthal, its $92 million for 11 players right now. Assuming Jenks gets $5 million, its $97 million for 12 players. Also consider the White Sox went into last season with a $121 million payroll. Raising ticket prices usually means the payroll will go higher. There's plenty of money, especially if they can pawn off another of their big contracts.

Here's where I got my information:

http://chicago.whitesox.mlb.com/news/article.jsp?ymd=20081107&content_id=3669931 &vkey=news_cws&fext=.jsp&c_id=cws

For what its worth, I trust this source moreso than a polesmoker like Ken Rosethal, who in 2005 famously stated that Comiskey was, "Hard to get to," when making his ham-handed explaination as to why the SOX don't draw as much as the scrubs.

If a mouthbreathing moron from the east coast can't understand that there's this highway all of ~300 feet from the park, then I don't trust his research.


EDIT: All of this is immaterial, anyway. I don't think that Furcal will be in our club in 2009. I would like him to be in the team, but I highly doubt that he'll come here. He's 31, and coming off a contract that paid him $15M/yr. He's likely only going to have one more big contract, and I just don't see The Chairman signing off on 3 years/$39M to one player.

soxfan43
11-18-2008, 04:45 PM
Here's where I got my information.

http://chicago.whitesox.mlb.com/news/article.jsp?ymd=20081107&content_id=3669931 &vkey=news_cws&fext=.jsp&c_id=cws

For what its worth, I trust this source moreso than a polesmoker like Ken Rosethal, who in 2005 famously stated that Comiskey was, "Hard to get to," when making his ham-handed explaination as to why the SOX don't draw as much as the scrubs.

If a mouthbreathing moron from the east coast can't understand that there's this highway all of ~300 feet from the park, then I don't trust his research.

Not to mention the red line being right there. Massive highway and a train, man tough place to get to. Adding that Metra stop soon is gonna really kill our attendance.

103 screwball
11-18-2008, 05:58 PM
I think Furcal is the number one target. Roberts costs too much via trade. Furcal will be a legit leadoff hitter so he will be worth the extra cash to fill a need and they won't have to give up so much talent to get him. Alexei can play 2nd or CF. Based on the rumors, I think Dye and JV will be traded and that will free some cash. The mystery to me is who will take their place. I think our new right fielder will be a typical number 2 hitter or another speed guy with Furcal batting second. Just a hunch.

Taliesinrk
11-18-2008, 07:43 PM
I think Furcal is the number one target. Roberts costs too much via trade. Furcal will be a legit leadoff hitter so he will be worth the extra cash to fill a need and they won't have to give up so much talent to get him. Alexei can play 2nd or CF. Based on the rumors, I think Dye and JV will be traded and that will free some cash. The mystery to me is who will take their place. I think our new right fielder will be a typical number 2 hitter or another speed guy with Furcal batting second. Just a hunch.

If Dye is traded, you're looking at Carlos Quentin as your starting RF in 09. If they didn't get anything else, you'd see JO and BA in LF and CF, respectively.

Zisk77
11-18-2008, 07:48 PM
I think Furcal is the number one target. Roberts costs too much via trade. Furcal will be a legit leadoff hitter so he will be worth the extra cash to fill a need and they won't have to give up so much talent to get him. Alexei can play 2nd or CF. Based on the rumors, I think Dye and JV will be traded and that will free some cash. The mystery to me is who will take their place. I think our new right fielder will be a typical number 2 hitter or another speed guy with Furcal batting second. Just a hunch.


My guess IF (big if) we signed furcal we'g trade JD to TB for edwin Jackson to replace Javy. CQ to Rf and Javy brings us either a LF or 3b or we sign one with his money. Still would not be shocked with Konerko to Ana for figgins and Fields to 1b.

cws05champ
11-18-2008, 07:50 PM
I think Furcal is the number one target. Roberts costs too much via trade. Furcal will be a legit leadoff hitter so he will be worth the extra cash to fill a need and they won't have to give up so much talent to get him. Alexei can play 2nd or CF. Based on the rumors, I think Dye and JV will be traded and that will free some cash. The mystery to me is who will take their place. I think our new right fielder will be a typical number 2 hitter or another speed guy with Furcal batting second. Just a hunch.
The trouble I have with singing Furcal to a 13M contract is that he only played 36 games last year, and got hurt the year before as well. He could be a huge risk salary wise if he goes down, but a big reward if healthy.

CWSpalehoseCWS
11-18-2008, 09:19 PM
My guess IF (big if) we signed furcal we'g trade JD to TB for edwin Jackson to replace Javy. CQ to Rf and Javy brings us either a LF or 3b or we sign one with his money. Still would not be shocked with Konerko to Ana for figgins and Fields to 1b.

The only thing with that is I don't see the Sox moving Fields to 1B over the course of ST. If he absolutely blows, then were screwed. I would like to see them move him there over time though, say by 2010, if he's still on the team.

SBSoxFan
11-18-2008, 10:21 PM
The Sox will sign Furcal and Ben Sheets. Trade a reliever for Crisp. Trade Javy for more young pitching.

They will hold onto Fields and have him battle with Betemit for 3rd base and later Beckham. Next year, Fields becomes the 1Bman with Thome and/or Konerko leaving.

Anderson stays as the 4th OFer until 2009 when Dye becomes the DH.

Jenks will be traded after the 2009 season when the Sox will have some closer options with young pitchers.

You're in the wrong thread. This goes here: http://www.whitesoxinteractive.com/vbulletin/showthread.php?t=107695

:D:

Madscout
11-18-2008, 10:57 PM
Alexei can also play CF, remember? He was supposedly more comfortable out there than at 2B to start last season.
Unless, of course, you ever saw him in CF. It wasn't pretty.

Lip Man 1
11-18-2008, 11:49 PM
Khan:

For the record I know Ken and have always considered him a good reporter. He knows his job, loves the game and tries to stay away from the BS.

This is the article that you speak of and it was published in 2004 not 2005.

Ken has allowed me to reprint it here with his permission. (Just want to make that clear to the mods)

“While angst-ridden Red Sox and Cubs f ans mutter about curses, White Sox fans are far more deserving of sympathy. Their franchise is in an inexcusable funk, and not simply because it operates with small-market restraint in the nation's third-largest city.As the Angels and Marlins proved, teams can win with mid-sized payrolls. But the White Sox, burdened by bloated contracts, are going backward. And though they face genuine disadvantages trying to compete with the Cubs, most fans don't want to hear it. They're fed up with a team that hasn't been to the World Series since 1959 or won it since '17.
The first to go should be chairman Jerry Reinsdorf, the distrusted Brooklyn native who could re-energize the franchise by selling to Chicago interests. But because Reinsdorf gives no indication he wants out, the more likely departure is All-Star right fielder Magglio Ordonez, who will be a free agent at the end of the season.
Then what? As the Cubs have continued their ascent with a series of impressive offseason moves, the White Sox have lost six free agents -- an especially troubling development considering their farm system no longer is providing impact replacements.
Even in the weak A.L. Central, the Sox might not contend with Miguel Olivo at catcher, Willie Harris at second and Aaron Rowand in center. Their rotation will suffer from the loss of Bartolo Colon. Their bullpen could be OK ... if closer Billy Koch regains his velocity.
The team's projected $64 million payroll reflects its poor home attendance, which ranked only 21st in the majors last season. But general manager Ken Williams has left himself little payroll flexibility, committing $53.375 million to eight players, including two disappointments, Koch and first baseman Paul Konerko.
The anger in Chicago is palpable.
Some fans confronted Williams during a heated question-and-answer session at the team's winter festival, and the G.M. sniped back. Others grilled Reinsdorf during a Q-and-A at the team's fantasy camp in Tucson, Ariz., and former Sox player Bill Melton reportedly tried to intervene before Reinsdorf continued taking questions.
The negativity drives Sox officials nuts; the Cubs draw even when they lose, thanks to the party atmosphere at Wrigley Field. The Sox, though, had better attendance than the Cubs every season but one from 1951 to '67 and also from '81 to '84. The opening of their new park in '91 should have sparked a renaissance. Instead, the Sox have drawn fewer than 2 million for 10 straight seasons -- an incomprehensible streak for a team with a new park.


U.S. Cellular Field is part of the problem; the White Sox opened their cookie-cutter facility a year before the Orioles launched Camden Yards, the retro park that revolutionized the sport. The Sox since have made extensive renovations, the latest being the removal of the top eight rows from the absurdly steep upper deck. Yet, even if they transform the park into an asset, better attendance won't be assured.


U.S. Cellular is on the south side of Chicago, and inbound evening rush-hour traffic from the north and west has become oppressive. Wrigley is more accessible, and the Cubs start the majority of their games in the afternoon. They also draw a sizable percentage of fans from surrounding neighborhoods. The Sox, playing in a more depressed section of the city, soon might receive a similar benefit; the area west of the park is beginning to revive.
Reinsdorf's cynical ownership, however, remains an enduring obstacle.
After taking over in 1981, Reinsdorf and vice chairman Eddie Einhorn drove away popular legends such as Bill Veeck, the team's previous owner, and broadcaster Harry Caray, who left for the Cubs. In 1988, the owners extracted a new, publicly financed stadium from the state after nearly moving the Sox to St. Petersburg, Fla. And the team hasn't recovered from the '94 strike, a showdown advocated by Reinsdorf, a hawk on labor issues. The Sox had the third-best record in the majors when the season was canceled.
It is not easy to categorize Reinsdorf: He ordered the notorious "White Flag" trade in '97 but also has authorized bold moves -- signing Albert Belle and trading for Colon. Friends and employees tell of his kindness and generosity. Still, the Sox suffer from a severe image problem, and it starts with an owner many perceive as arrogant and stubborn.
Even at their worst, the Cubs always had likable players -- Ryne Sandberg, Mark Grace, Sammy Sosa. The Sox, by contrast, traded Sosa to the Cubs for George Bell, and now the White Sox's biggest stars are the quiet Ordonez and the self-absorbed Frank Thomas. One rival executive says Reinsdorf hired Ozzie Guillen as manager to give the team a personality.
Williams never stops trying as G.M., but he failed in his goal to get to the playoffs last season and create additional revenue for the '04 payroll. The Cubs came within one win of going to the World Series, then added first baseman Derrek Lee and reliever LaTroy Hawkins. The Sox finished four games out of first place in the A.L. Central and added infielder Juan Uribe and relievers Cliff Politte and Shingo Takatsu while suffering major defections.
Their fans have a right to be mad. The Cubs shouldn't own the town.” – Ken Rosenthal, senior baseball writer, The Sporting News, February 16, 2004.

Lip Man 1
11-18-2008, 11:55 PM
Khan:

For the record I know Ken and have always considered him a good reporter. He knows his job, loves the game and tries to stay away from the BS.

This is the article that you speak of and it was published in 2004 not 2005.

Ken has allowed me to reprint it here with his permission. (Just want to make that clear to the mods)

“While angst-ridden Red Sox and Cubs fans mutter about curses, White Sox fans are far more deserving of sympathy. Their franchise is in an inexcusable funk, and not simply because it operates with small-market restraint in the nation's third-largest city.

As the Angels and Marlins proved, teams can win with mid-sized payrolls. But the White Sox, burdened by bloated contracts, are going backward. And though they face genuine disadvantages trying to compete with the Cubs, most fans don't want to hear it. They're fed up with a team that hasn't been to the World Series since 1959 or won it since '17.

The first to go should be chairman Jerry Reinsdorf, the distrusted Brooklyn native who could re-energize the franchise by selling to Chicago interests. But because Reinsdorf gives no indication he wants out, the more likely departure is All-Star right fielder Magglio Ordonez, who will be a free agent at the end of the season.

Then what? As the Cubs have continued their ascent with a series of impressive offseason moves, the White Sox have lost six free agents -- an especially troubling development considering their farm system no longer is providing impact replacements.

Even in the weak A.L. Central, the Sox might not contend with Miguel Olivo at catcher, Willie Harris at second and Aaron Rowand in center. Their rotation will suffer from the loss of Bartolo Colon. Their bullpen could be OK ... if closer Billy Koch regains his velocity.

The team's projected $64 million payroll reflects its poor home attendance, which ranked only 21st in the majors last season. But general manager Ken Williams has left himself little payroll flexibility, committing $53.375 million to eight players, including two disappointments, Koch and first baseman Paul Konerko.

The anger in Chicago is palpable.

Some fans confronted Williams during a heated question-and-answer session at the team's winter festival, and the G.M. sniped back. Others grilled Reinsdorf during a Q-and-A at the team's fantasy camp in Tucson, Ariz., and former Sox player Bill Melton reportedly tried to intervene before Reinsdorf continued taking questions.

The negativity drives Sox officials nuts; the Cubs draw even when they lose, thanks to the party atmosphere at Wrigley Field. The Sox, though, had better attendance than the Cubs every season but one from 1951 to '67 and also from '81 to '84. The opening of their new park in '91 should have sparked a renaissance. Instead, the Sox have drawn fewer than 2 million for 10 straight seasons -- an incomprehensible streak for a team with a new park.

U.S. Cellular Field is part of the problem; the White Sox opened their cookie-cutter facility a year before the Orioles launched Camden Yards, the retro park that revolutionized the sport. The Sox since have made extensive renovations, the latest being the removal of the top eight rows from the absurdly steep upper deck. Yet, even if they transform the park into an asset, better attendance won't be assured.

U.S. Cellular is on the south side of Chicago, and inbound evening rush-hour traffic from the north and west has become oppressive. Wrigley is more accessible, and the Cubs start the majority of their games in the afternoon. They also draw a sizable percentage of fans from surrounding neighborhoods. The Sox, playing in a more depressed section of the city, soon might receive a similar benefit; the area west of the park is beginning to revive.

Reinsdorf's cynical ownership, however, remains an enduring obstacle.

After taking over in 1981, Reinsdorf and vice chairman Eddie Einhorn drove away popular legends such as Bill Veeck, the team's previous owner, and broadcaster Harry Caray, who left for the Cubs. In 1988, the owners extracted a new, publicly financed stadium from the state after nearly moving the Sox to St. Petersburg, Fla. And the team hasn't recovered from the '94 strike, a showdown advocated by Reinsdorf, a hawk on labor issues. The Sox had the third-best record in the majors when the season was canceled.

It is not easy to categorize Reinsdorf: He ordered the notorious "White Flag" trade in '97 but also has authorized bold moves -- signing Albert Belle and trading for Colon. Friends and employees tell of his kindness and generosity. Still, the Sox suffer from a severe image problem, and it starts with an owner many perceive as arrogant and stubborn.

Even at their worst, the Cubs always had likable players -- Ryne Sandberg, Mark Grace, Sammy Sosa. The Sox, by contrast, traded Sosa to the Cubs for George Bell, and now the White Sox's biggest stars are the quiet Ordonez and the self-absorbed Frank Thomas. One rival executive says Reinsdorf hired Ozzie Guillen as manager to give the team a personality.

Williams never stops trying as G.M., but he failed in his goal to get to the playoffs last season and create additional revenue for the '04 payroll. The Cubs came within one win of going to the World Series, then added first baseman Derrek Lee and reliever LaTroy Hawkins. The Sox finished four games out of first place in the A.L. Central and added infielder Juan Uribe and relievers Cliff Politte and Shingo Takatsu while suffering major defections.


Their fans have a right to be mad. The Cubs shouldn't own the town.” – Ken Rosenthal, senior baseball writer, The Sporting News, February 16, 2004.

khan
11-19-2008, 12:09 PM
Khan:

For the record I know Ken and have always considered him a good reporter. He knows his job, loves the game and tries to stay away from the BS.
I enjoy some of his writing, but specific to our SOX, he's yet another east coast polesmoking ass clown.


This is the article that you speak of and it was published in 2004 not 2005.

Lip, here's the thing:

He stated it in print in 2004, AND again in 2005 in print. I've also heard him run his stupid piehole about how it is "hard to get to" The Cell on the radio, and on TV since then. He is either stupid, ill-informed, a scrubs polesmoker, or some combination of the above. Because NO ONE who sees the TWO EL lines, the Metra stop, AND THE DOGGONE HIGHWAY can make such a stupid statement over and over and over and over and over again.


Ken has allowed me to reprint it here with his permission. (Just want to make that clear to the mods)

Good. Now reprint the other story in 2005. Have him send on the transcripts of his radio appearances in subsequent years where he made the same stupid statements.

If he doesn't like the SOX, the SOX fandom, the stadium, or the South Side, let him BE A MAN, and state it. But to make a moronic, false statement such as "it's hard to get to" Comiskey/U.S. Cellular is at best bad reporting, and at worst, unbalanced reporting.

“[SNIP!]...U.S. Cellular is on the south side of Chicago, and inbound evening rush-hour traffic from the north and west has become oppressive. Wrigley is more accessible, and the Cubs start the majority of their games in the afternoon.... [SNIP]” – Ken Rosenthal, senior baseball writer, The Sporting News, February 16, 2004.

Two stupid things here that I've highlighted, and make me wonder:


What does he have against the south side, anyway?
Does this moron realize that the SAME DAMN EL runs right past U.S. Cellular as it does Wrigley? [And that there are actually TWO ELs near US Cellular AND a Metra stop, unlike Wrigley's one EL line...]
Has this assclown tried driving/parking at a scrubs game?
Most importantly, WHO IS HE KIDDING???
Lip,

I'm happy to hear that "Ken" is a buddy of yours. But in this case, he's so off base, so wrong, so stupid that he embarrasses himself. He should actually try to investigate what that 16-lane horsetrail is next to The Cell, and then compare it to the clogged streets of wrigleyville. He should actually bother to find out what that shiny steel thing is that runs between the 16-land horsetrail. [Actually, there are TWO nearby, unlike Wrigley's ONE train line.] He should try finding parking in the same freakin' zip code as Wrigley, then try parking near The Cell.

In sum, he's a joke with respect to U.S. Cellular's accessibility, the South Side, and our SOX.

Lip Man 1
11-19-2008, 12:26 PM
Khan:

Just my opinion but I think you're overreacting a tad don't you think?

Like I said I know Ken, talk to him fairly often, exchange e-mails and I don't detect the same "Sox hatred" as you do. Certainly not even in the same universe as ESPN.

When the Sox won in 2005, I can personally tell you how happy he was for me and the fan base.

But you're entitled to your opinion.

And I do not have in my files the 2005 story you speak of. Can you provide any more information and I may be able to find it.

Lip

Lip Man 1
11-19-2008, 12:30 PM
One other thing since the edit function seems to be out of commission.

When was all the construction work being done on the Ryan? I remember the Sox themselves handing out updates and providing info on the "best" ways to get to the stadium due to all the work and the traffic tieup's.

My memory may be way off but I strongly think this was around the time of Ken's story about the 04 season heading into 05.

If that's true, then the only thing he's "guilty" of is not stating WHY the stadium was hard to access.

Lip

dickallen15
11-19-2008, 12:49 PM
One other thing since the edit function seems to be out of commission.

When was all the construction work being done on the Ryan? I remember the Sox themselves handing out updates and providing info on the "best" ways to get to the stadium due to all the work and the traffic tieup's.

My memory may be way off but I strongly think this was around the time of Ken's story about the 04 season heading into 05.

If that's true, then the only thing he's "guilty" of is not stating WHY the stadium was hard to access.

Lip

The guy calling Rosenthal names really is what he called Rosenthal if he believes everybody takes the Red Line to the game.

Rosenthal is correct, for the majority of Sox fans, getting to the park is very difficult. One thing I will disagree with Rosenthal on is its just as difficult to get to Wrigley and when you get there there is no place to park.

kittle42
11-19-2008, 12:58 PM
The guy calling Rosenthal names really is what he called Rosenthal if he believes everybody takes the Red Line to the game.

Rosenthal is correct, for the majority of Sox fans, getting to the park is very difficult. One thing I will disagree with Rosenthal on is its just as difficult to get to Wrigley and when you get there there is no place to park.

Exactly why no one should drive or live in the subsurbs. :D:

thedudeabides
11-19-2008, 02:24 PM
One other thing since the edit function seems to be out of commission.

When was all the construction work being done on the Ryan? I remember the Sox themselves handing out updates and providing info on the "best" ways to get to the stadium due to all the work and the traffic tieup's.

My memory may be way off but I strongly think this was around the time of Ken's story about the 04 season heading into 05.

If that's true, then the only thing he's "guilty" of is not stating WHY the stadium was hard to access.

Lip

This was around the time they were doing the construction on the Ryan and it was a nightmare to get to, at times. Not to mentioned it really crowded other expressways during the construction, as people did their best to avoid the Ryan. I don't see anything Rosenthal said in that article to be fabricated or biased.

Lip Man 1
11-19-2008, 11:49 PM
Dude:

I agree. I also don't think he was bashing the Sox or their fans, he came right out and said they deserved a share of the city, that it shouldn't just belong to the Cubs.

Many here at WSI were screaming the exact same thing.

Lip

btrain929
11-19-2008, 11:52 PM
Lip,

Any new news from your higher ups in the organization about new players we have our eye on besides the previously mentioned Figgins and Hudson? There's a lack of White Sox rumors, we need new material :D:

103 screwball
11-20-2008, 12:00 AM
There is a shortage of rumors. It sure is quiet. KW is getting serious about something or there would be at least some b.s. out there to influence a negotiation or a smokescreen. White Sox baseball. Year round entertainment.

oeo
11-20-2008, 12:03 AM
There is a shortage of rumors. It sure is quiet. KW is getting serious about something or there would be at least some b.s. out there to influence a negotiation or a smokescreen. White Sox baseball. Year round entertainment.

December 8-11 is the Winter Meetings, and the most exciting time of the offseason. Of course, right before finals.

UofCSoxFan
11-20-2008, 01:44 AM
I remember KW saying something about wanting to get YOUNGER and more athletic. I dont believe that a 31 year old shortstop is in the plans simply because we have a 27 year old prodigy ready to take the position by the wings...We need a center fielder, not a shortstop

We need a middle infielder...not a SS necessarily. In fact it likely will be easier to get a solid SS than a 2B.

khan
11-20-2008, 11:27 AM
When was all the construction work being done on the Ryan? I remember the Sox themselves handing out updates and providing info on the "best" ways to get to the stadium due to all the work and the traffic tieup's.

My memory may be way off but I strongly think this was around the time of Ken's story about the 04 season heading into 05.
And you would be incorrect. The Dan Ryan was reconstructed in '06 - '07.

If that's true, then the only thing he's "guilty" of is not stating WHY the stadium was hard to access.
I looked around for it, but I recently recycled all my old TSNs and I can't find the specific articles in 2005 and onwards. But I HAVE read in magazines/heard him on The Score & ESPN Radio state such nonsense.

But what really sets me off about this [and other] articles about this subject by "Ken" is this:

"...U.S. Cellular is on the south side of Chicago, and inbound evening rush-hour traffic from the north and west has become oppressive. Wrigley is more accessible, and the Cubs start the majority of their games in the afternoon....”


Again: What's wrong with the south side? And HOW are Wrigleyville's congested side streets and parking lots a zip code away more accessible than The Cell? For whom? His buddies from Wilmette and Glencoe? And why has he felt the need to state this same incorrect information over and over again?
I agree with much of what "Ken" states in this and other articles. But he's made this mistake so often that it is irritating. And when you're a person in the media, you have a responsibility to base your work on the facts. When you get it wrong, you've got to be ready to take a beating for it. More importantly, you've got to get it right.
I understand that Rosenthal's job is to state his opinion. But as a journalist, his job is to base his opinions on the FACTS, not on commonly-repeated rumor and on incorrect guessing.

Lip Man 1
11-20-2008, 12:18 PM
Khan:

He's stating it from a geographical standpoint then explains how the traffic is coming from the north and west. Many readers have never been to Chicago and he was trying to get them to understand the location.

Simply a directional description. I just can't for the life of me figure where you make this as a personal attack on the south side.

Lip

khan
11-20-2008, 12:55 PM
Simply a directional description. I just can't for the life of me figure where you make this as a personal attack on the south side.

Lip, in the context of the sentence, and in the greater view of the article as to why our SOX do not draw as well as the scrubs/are not as popular as the scrubs, I disagree with your interpretation. In this article, as in other articles about this topic, he's stating the location/this part of Chicago as an overall negative. And I don't understand why this is the case. I've never seen him write/hear him speak ill of other neighborhoods for other teams' stadia. [I'm sure he doesn't miss the chance to go see Yankees home games, even though Yankee Stadium is in the craptacular Bronx, for example.]

Moreover, that he's stated this more than once suggests at a bias. That he hasn't bothered to properly research this issue suggests at less-than-competence on his part. A writer, as ALL of us, has the right to state his/her opinion. But his position in the public eye requires the proper amount of professionalism on his part to get the correct information out. Since he hasn't bothered to do so, he's got to take a beating for it. I will not be swayed on this part, for him or for other members of the media. [If it were Mariotti who wrote that crap, I'm sure you and "Jay" would be best buddies about it, and you'd be defending "Jay" to the end, no?]

Madscout
11-20-2008, 12:56 PM
In the article in question, he does mention some good points, such as the dismissal of Harry Carey, Bill Veeck not allowed to be involved with the team, the White Flag, and others that were part of the image of the Sox. Let's not forget that big things have happened since that article to change the Sox's image, such as a world series and the will of managment to be yearly contenders (you can debate the sucess of the plans, but you know they want to win every year, and are going to go for it), the renovations of US Cellular that have been very successful, a troup of very exciting players (TCQ, John Danks, J Dye. AJ, Alexei, Flyod, and Jose Contreras to name a few). The Cubs have had some image changes as well, such as two years of very promising teams that were absolutely out matched in the playoffs and proceeded to **** the bed, a pouting whiny Sosa depature, and a park that is now officially falling down.

oeo
11-20-2008, 12:58 PM
The Cubs have had some image changes as well, such as two years of very promising teams that were absolutely out matched in the playoffs and proceeded to **** the bed, a pouting whiny Sosa depature, and a park that is now officially falling down.

One thing hasn't changed...they're still waiting. :bandance:

khan
11-20-2008, 01:05 PM
In the article in question, he does mention some good points, such as the dismissal of Harry Carey, Bill Veeck not allowed to be involved with the team, the White Flag, and others that were part of the image of the Sox.
Add onto that: The choice to be on cable TV before most of America were on cable TV, and other issues as well. I agree with "Ken" about most of this article.

But for the parts I highlighted previously, "Ken" has stated over and over again. It points to a lazy mind, and less-than-complete research on his part.

Let's not forget that big things have happened since that article to change the Sox's image, such as a world series and the will of managment to be yearly contenders (you can debate the sucess of the plans, but you know they want to win every year, and are going to go for it), the renovations of US Cellular that have been very successful, a troup of very exciting players (TCQ, John Danks, J Dye. AJ, Alexei, Flyod, and Jose Contreras to name a few). The Cubs have had some image changes as well, such as two years of very promising teams that were absolutely out matched in the playoffs and proceeded to **** the bed, a pouting whiny Sosa depature, and a park that is now officially falling down.
Agreed.

pearso66
11-20-2008, 07:02 PM
Lip, in the context of the sentence, and in the greater view of the article as to why our SOX do not draw as well as the scrubs/are as popular as the scrubs, I disagree with your interpretation. In this article, as in other articles about this topic, he's stating the location/this part of Chicago as an overall negative. And I don't understand why this is the case. I've never seen him write/hear him speak ill of other neighborhoods for other teams' stadia. [I'm sure he doesn't miss the chance to go see Yankees home games, even though Yankee Stadium is in the craptacular Bronx, for example.]

Moreover, that he's stated this more than once suggests at a bias. That he hasn't bothered to properly research this issue suggests at less-than-competence on his part. A writer, as ALL of us, has the right to state his/her opinion. But his position in the public eye requires the proper amount of professionalism on his part to get the correct information out. Since he hasn't bothered to do so, he's got to take a beating for it. I will not be swayed on this part, for him or for other members of the media. [If it were Mariotti who wrote that crap, I'm sure you and "Jay" would be best buddies about it, and you'd be defending "Jay" to the end, no?]


I don't know about you, but coming from the north for the games can be tough during rush hour. Even without rush hour, you can still get some pretty heavy traffic coming from the north or west of the city. It doesn't bother me at all that he is stating this fact, but he is wrong about the accessibility of Wrigley Field. That place even being further north, is much harder to get to. It is actually in the middle of the city, and as someone else mentioned, no parking. But it remains that US Cellular can be tough to get to.

103 screwball
11-21-2008, 01:01 AM
Furcal is not a type A free agent. He may make compromises to play with a contending team with a fun loving, Spanish speaking, former shortstop, manager named Ozzie. If Cabrera was making 9, surely Furcal could be worth 12.

kittle42
11-21-2008, 01:19 AM
Furcal is not a type A free agent. He may make compromises to play with a contending team with a fun loving, Spanish speaking, former shortstop, manager named Ozzie. If Cabrera was making 9, surely Furcal could be worth 12.

Yes, my manager speaks Spanish. Pay me less money.

103 screwball
11-21-2008, 01:34 AM
I took less money to work in a more enjoyable environment. Quality of life has value. And yes, I'd prefer to be able to communicate well with my boss. It would be more difficult if my boss spoke Russian. I'm not saying that Furcal will volunteer his services, but I think a competitive offer could get him and the Sox should definitely go after him.

tm1119
11-21-2008, 12:06 PM
So I keep hearing about this "mystery team" that has an offer on Furcal. Anybody think it could be us? Somehow I doubt it, just cant see KW investing that much money in a 30+ year old coming off injury. Especially with Alexi and Beckham in the organization.

NLaloosh
11-21-2008, 12:13 PM
I could see why Kenny would want him . I can't see Kenny outbidding the other 6 teams that want him.

turners56
11-24-2008, 05:52 PM
There's a freaking surprise team hanging around. Just who is it and what do they mean by surprise? Surprise as in a bad team wanting a good player or as in just some team?

JorgeFabregas
11-24-2008, 05:55 PM
So I keep hearing about this "mystery team" that has an offer on Furcal. Anybody think it could be us? Somehow I doubt it, just cant see KW investing that much money in a 30+ year old coming off injury. Especially with Alexi and Beckham in the organization.
I read today that the A's made an offer. Seems like that would be a surprise.

btrain929
11-24-2008, 06:00 PM
I read today that the A's made an offer. Seems like that would be a surprise.

No, them and the Giants are popularly known to be interested in Furcal, so no surprise there.

CashMan
11-24-2008, 06:04 PM
No, them and the Giants are popularly known to be interested in Furcal, so no surprise there.

The Giants just signed a SS.

btrain929
11-24-2008, 06:07 PM
The Giants just signed a SS.

Ok, well, as of last night those 2 teams were the most aggressive in pursuing Furcal....better? :tongue:. Plus, there a few sources that are saying that rumor is false and Renteria hasn't signed, yet.

Konerko05
11-24-2008, 06:07 PM
There's a freaking surprise team hanging around. Just who is it and what do they mean by surprise? Surprise as in a bad team wanting a good player or as in just some team?

Who is the "they" you are referring to?

btrain929
11-24-2008, 06:08 PM
Who is the "they" you are referring to?

I'm guessing the different media outlets that are also using that term.

tm1119
11-24-2008, 06:20 PM
Apparently Renteria hasnt officially signed yet but the deal is very close. But the proposed deal was 2yrs/18mil. Thats a lot of money for a guy coming off a horrible year. I know Furcal was hurt but he was great in the time he played and is younger and for the most part a better palyer than Renteria . So whats that put Furcal at? 3 or 4 years and 14mil per? That seems like way too much, despite him being a great fit here.

turners56
11-24-2008, 06:21 PM
I'm guessing the different media outlets that are also using that term.

Yes, that's what I was referring to.

Sockinchisox
11-24-2008, 07:14 PM
Impacto Deportivo says the surprise team is Atlanta and they're offering 4 years and 52 million.

http://www.impactodeportivo.com.do/?op=displaystory&story_id=4569&format=html

btrain929
11-24-2008, 07:23 PM
Impacto Deportivo says the surprise team is Atlanta and they're offering 4 years and 52 million.

http://www.impactodeportivo.com.do/?op=displaystory&story_id=4569&format=html

Hmmm. I guess to me that's not a terribly surprising team since they were going to be in the market for a SS if they trade Escobar to the Pads in a Peavy deal. So if they do sign Furcal, then they can go on with their plans.

gr8mexico
11-24-2008, 07:33 PM
Impacto Deportivo says the surprise team is Atlanta and they're offering 4 years and 52 million.

http://www.impactodeportivo.com.do/?op=displaystory&story_id=4569&format=html
If they do let's hope KW can trade for Yunel Escobarhttp://elouai.com/images/yahoo/51.gif

tm1119
11-24-2008, 08:15 PM
If they do let's hope KW can trade for Yunel Escobarhttp://elouai.com/images/yahoo/51.gif

Or Kelly Johnson or Brent Lillibridge. Hmm... the Braves are looking for pitching? Javy anyone?

DirtySox
11-24-2008, 08:16 PM
Yunel want.

Keep the Cubans coming.

PalehosePlanet
11-24-2008, 11:06 PM
Yunel want.

Keep the Cubans coming.

Yunel is going to the Padres in the Peavy deal --- if and when it happens.

That would mean that Khalil Greene would become available, if he's not already.

I'm actually surprised that anyone would offer Furcal a 4 year deal considering he has hardly played in 2 of the last 3 years and is coming off back surgery.

gr8mexico
11-24-2008, 11:31 PM
Yunel is going to the Padres in the Peavy deal --- if and when it happens.

That would mean that Khalil Greene would become available, if he's not already.

I'm actually surprised that anyone would offer Furcal a 4 year deal considering he has hardly played in 2 of the last 3 years and is coming off back surgery.
Maybe the Sox can be the 3rd team in the deal.

btrain929
11-24-2008, 11:43 PM
Maybe the Sox can be the 3rd team in the deal.

The Braves and Pads don't need a 3rd team.

gr8mexico
11-25-2008, 12:45 AM
The Braves and Pads don't need a 3rd team.
If they didn't need a 3rd team the trade would of been made already.
Unless the Padres want a boat load of players in return.

BadBobbyJenks
11-25-2008, 02:09 AM
If they didn't need a 3rd team the trade would of been made already.
Unless the Padres want a boat load of players in return.

The Braves don't want to give up a couple of prospects that the Padres are asking for.