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View Full Version : White Sox are a LONG WAY away


ssang
05-20-2002, 08:58 PM
As I sit here watching the White Sox I have accepted the fact that they have no shot in hell at even sniffing the world series. Our starting pitching is weak, our bullpen is weak, and even our offense looks weak. It seems as though they only score a lot when they put some runs on the board early. If they haven't scored by the 4th inning you might as well change the channel. I've never seen a team that can score 15 runs while just as easily muster a measly 1-2 hits in an entire ballgame. And on another note, it looks as though we lost in the trade for Ritchie. Ken Williams bites the big one!

:whiner: :angry: :whiner: :angry: :whiner: :angry: :whiner:

Soxheads
05-20-2002, 09:03 PM
Originally posted by ssang
And on another note, it looks as though we lost in the trade for Ritchie. Ken Williams bites the big one!

:whiner: :angry: :whiner: :angry: :whiner: :angry: :whiner:

I wouldn't go that far yet. He is still one of the top pitchers on our team. Justify why we lost.

Garrison
05-20-2002, 11:03 PM
Right now we don't have what it takes to make the playoffs let alone win a series or even compete in one. Look at who the AL playoff teams could be: Seatlle, Anaheim, NY, Boston, Minnesota, Chicago. Aside from Minnesota (whom we have yet to play and therefore yet to beat) can we honestly compete with those other clubs? With this crap we are pulling, now way in hell. Don't even talk WS guys. Lets focus on righting the ship and winning the divison before we even think playoffs. :gulp: :gulp:

OEO Magglio
05-20-2002, 11:24 PM
Right now I think this team can make the first round and then out, but I think they are one quality starter away from being a contender to go far in the playoffs, cause the offense will get jump started if we get good pitching, and we have a pretty good pen, so I truly believe we are one 2 or 3 starter away from being a real contender.

WhiteSoxWinner
05-20-2002, 11:31 PM
Now now, let's not start opening the windows and stepping out just yet. Yes, the team has hit a rough stretch. It's a bummer, but every team has the rough patch at some time. The offense will get going again. No way it can be this bad over the long haul. I don't agree that the bullpen is horrible. I was more worried about on April 1 than I am right now. The starters are a source of trouble, but Cameo WILL trade for another starter. Right now is not that time to do that because there are still teams that have not fallen out of the race.

Now, I am tired of hearing that Cameo lost the trade to Pittsburgh. Kip Wells had how many seasons to be successful here? He never got his head on straight, and it was time for him to go. Just like Mike Cameron, how long can you keep a guy with the club and keep saying, "He's going to get better." For some reason, this organization never liked Sean Lowe. Did they lose arbitration with him or something? I don't know, but I do know that they were going to include him whatever deal they made. No use crying over that, and besides, for every great start he had, he also had an outing where he self-destructed (anyone remember that 16 pitches/16 balls to walk the bases loaded with a run performance last year?) I'll admit, Josh Fogg would be nice to have, but again, you have to give up something to get something. I think Ritchie has done what we asked (ERA under 3.50 before tonight and consistently going 7+ innings). Did anyone think we were going to get that from Wells or Lowe? And the last point, you can only have 40 men on the 40 man roster. Yeah, we have a lot of guys in the minors, and we can't have all them on the 40 man. At some point, you have to deal talent or lose it to the rule 5 draft. Just a fact of life.

Tragg
05-20-2002, 11:32 PM
Our offense is good against bad pitching - it can't sniff good pitching - not enough walks and getting on base. We saw that in the playoff series against Seattle. Unfortunately, we haven't addressed it.

Our pitching is weaker than 2 years ago.

Our team is okay, but not a serious contender.

DrCrawdad
05-21-2002, 12:10 AM
Originally posted by WhiteSoxWinner
For some reason, this organization never liked Sean Lowe. Did they lose arbitration with him or something? I don't know, but I do know that they were going to include him whatever deal they made. No use crying over that, and besides, for every great start he had, he also had an outing where he self-destructed (anyone remember that 16 pitches/16 balls to walk the bases loaded with a run performance last year?)

Sean Lowe went from the guy people said that we'd most miss to the forgotten man. From what I've read, Sean hasn't done very well. In fact, I believe he gave up a game winning HR in his last outing.

Fogg, he did well in limited innings with the Sox at the end of the season
last year. I don't believe that anyone - not the Sox, not the so-called
experts - predicted the kind of success that he's had with Pittsburgh. Had
Fogg remained with the Sox, I bet he wouldn't be starting. To their
detriment, the Sox love the radar gun. IIRC Fogg is not a velocity guy so the
Sox probably didn't have Fogg in their plans. At this point, it sure seems
that they should have.

It will be interesting to see how Fogg does vs. the Cubs on Wednesday. Not that the Cubs line-up is fear inspiring, but Fogg will be going up against the most highly hyped young pitcher ever - in my memory. Wrigley will be filled, not the usual 33K tickets sold, seats empty. In that atmosphere and seeing that it should be difficult to pick up three wins in a row against the Cubs, it will be interesting to see how Fogg responding.

- DrCrawdad

mike squires
05-21-2002, 12:31 AM
although i agree we probably can't compete against the stronger teams in our division we ahve a few things on our side. one a weak divison. what are we, only a half game back?!! and look at the 83' team, they started off horribly and won the division my 20 games with pitchers like jerry koosman and floyd bannister, shoot richard dotson only had one or two decent years. who knows what can happen.

baggio202
05-21-2002, 12:50 AM
one thing ive noticed...if your a sox prospect and you want to stay with the sox..by all means dont come up here and have instant success...or if you do make sure you tear a labrum...chad bradford always pitched well for us except for one outing..traded...josh fogg shows up with a .203 era his first..traded..kip wells is 4-1 his first year..traded...but matt ginter is still here..ken vining is still in the system...the rest are all coming back from injury

god forbid if you show up with a healthy arm and actually show management you know how to pitch...GET THE HELL OUT OF HERE...you come up and suck and learn to do it the nardi way or we dont want you...the gall of these young punks coming up and showing nardi up by pitching good from the get go before nardi has a chance to impart his wisdom on them...god dam punks think they know everything

(thats a rip off from double m) :cool:

ssang
05-21-2002, 01:05 AM
Now, I am tired of hearing that Cameo lost the trade to Pittsburgh. Kip Wells had how many seasons to be successful here? He never got his head on straight, and it was time for him to go. Just like Mike Cameron, how long can you keep a guy with the club and keep saying, "He's going to get better." For some reason, this organization never liked Sean Lowe. Did they lose arbitration with him or something? I don't know, but I do know that they were going to include him whatever deal they made.


This may all be true...but it is Ken Williams job, and every GM's job in general to make transactions to strengthen the ballclub. Admittedly, the big trade looked pretty good at the time. I'll admit that even I liked it at the time. But Ken Williams is paid to make the RIGHT decisions and he just seems to be WRONG most of the time. He obviously missed the boat with the Fogg/Wells/Lowe deal. I mean Fogg posted a 2.02 era with a great ratio in his short stint with the Sox last year. He has continued pitching well for the Pirates. Kenny Williams' deals make sense to the average fan. But the average fan ain't qualified to be a general manager. And apparently neither is Ken Williams.

WhiteSoxWinner
05-21-2002, 01:58 AM
Originally posted by ssang

This may all be true...but it is Ken Williams job, and every GM's job in general to make transactions to strengthen the ballclub. Admittedly, the big trade looked pretty good at the time. I'll admit that even I liked it at the time. But Ken Williams is paid to make the RIGHT decisions and he just seems to be WRONG most of the time. He obviously missed the boat with the Fogg/Wells/Lowe deal. I mean Fogg posted a 2.02 era with a great ratio in his short stint with the Sox last year. He has continued pitching well for the Pirates. Kenny Williams' deals make sense to the average fan. But the average fan ain't qualified to be a general manager. And apparently neither is Ken Williams.

But who has Fogg pitched against? Two of his starts came against the Flubs, perhaps the WORST team in major league baseball. Certainly the crappiest hitting team. Let's let him face some good opponents. Our 3-4-5 can look like All-Stars against that lineup.

Williams has made some good trades. Scott Eyre for Gary Glover. Glover should be in the pen, but regardless, tell me that didn't help the team. Eyre will NEVER pitch with one iota of effectiveness in the majors. David Wells for Mike Sirotka. Well, to my knowledge Mr. Evans, Sirotka STILL hasn't thrown a pitch for the Blue Jays. At least we got 10 starts or so from Wells, and I also credit David Wells for teaching Buehrle how to pitch and become an ace. Clayton for Aaron Myette? Where is Myette right now? He can't even crack the god-awful Texas staff. Singleton for Willie Harris? At one point, even Clayton had a better average than Singleton. Singleton is terrible and we grabbed the top prospect from a struggling organization. How about the signing of Kenny Lofton? Jeez, that was a horrible move right? Clayton? OK, maybe the worst signing (although I know a number of you will disagree) has been bust at the plate, but his defense is solid and not everyone is going to be a stud hitter in the line-up. The only trade I can think of right now that was an absolute bust was the Fordyce and the young pitchers for Baines and Johnson. Johnson was a good addition, but I think the man upstairs foisted Baines on this team. Nothing Williams can do there, go talk to Uncle Jerry.

The one consistent thing you can say for Williams is that he is trying to win now, which is a heck of a lot more than I can say for Ron Schueler. Schueler was all about, "let's keep the farm system stocked with 'prospects' and that way, we'll never win, but we'll have an endless stream of next Roger Clemens and Pedro Martinez." What happened to Scott Ruffcorn and Scott Eyre? I thought those guys were supposed to be the next 'insert name here'.

baggio202
05-21-2002, 02:38 AM
Originally posted by WhiteSoxWinner


But who has Fogg pitched against? Two of his starts came against the Flubs, perhaps the WORST team in major league baseball. Certainly the crappiest hitting team. Let's let him face some good opponents. Our 3-4-5 can look like All-Stars against that lineup.

Williams has made some good trades. Scott Eyre for Gary Glover. Glover should be in the pen, but regardless, tell me that didn't help the team. Eyre will NEVER pitch with one iota of effectiveness in the majors. David Wells for Mike Sirotka. Well, to my knowledge Mr. Evans, Sirotka STILL hasn't thrown a pitch for the Blue Jays. At least we got 10 starts or so from Wells, and I also credit David Wells for teaching Buehrle how to pitch and become an ace. Clayton for Aaron Myette? Where is Myette right now? He can't even crack the god-awful Texas staff. Singleton for Willie Harris? At one point, even Clayton had a better average than Singleton. Singleton is terrible and we grabbed the top prospect from a struggling organization. How about the signing of Kenny Lofton? Jeez, that was a horrible move right? Clayton? OK, maybe the worst signing (although I know a number of you will disagree) has been bust at the plate, but his defense is solid and not everyone is going to be a stud hitter in the line-up. The only trade I can think of right now that was an absolute bust was the Fordyce and the young pitchers for Baines and Johnson. Johnson was a good addition, but I think the man upstairs foisted Baines on this team. Nothing Williams can do there, go talk to Uncle Jerry.

The one consistent thing you can say for Williams is that he is trying to win now, which is a heck of a lot more than I can say for Ron Schueler. Schueler was all about, "let's keep the farm system stocked with 'prospects' and that way, we'll never win, but we'll have an endless stream of next Roger Clemens and Pedro Martinez." What happened to Scott Ruffcorn and Scott Eyre? I thought those guys were supposed to be the next 'insert name here'.

well josh fogg beat houston and he beat randy johnson in the desert for his last two victories...

your using the boomer deal as a slight victory for KW because the main guy toronto wanted ended up injured and may never pitch again..and thats one of KW's better movesawe inspiring...

you talk about myette cant crack the " god awful texas staff"..well if this little tidbit doesnt convince you of kenny williams incompetence nothing will:

god awful texas staff team era............................... 4.56
kenny williams new and improved chisox staff........ 4.69

by your own words texas ' "god awful" staff is doing better than ours..and that was before tonights stellar performance which will push that team era towards 4.80...and remember texas was without chan ho park almost all year and their closer jeff zimmerman..

does that convince you kenny williams is killing us??

CLR01
05-21-2002, 04:26 AM
Originally posted by WhiteSoxWinner


But who has Fogg pitched against? Two of his starts came against the Flubs, perhaps the WORST team in major league baseball. Certainly the crappiest hitting team. Let's let him face some good opponents. Our 3-4-5 can look like All-Stars against that lineup.

Williams has made some good trades. Scott Eyre for Gary Glover. Glover should be in the pen, but regardless, tell me that didn't help the team. Eyre will NEVER pitch with one iota of effectiveness in the majors. David Wells for Mike Sirotka. Well, to my knowledge Mr. Evans, Sirotka STILL hasn't thrown a pitch for the Blue Jays. At least we got 10 starts or so from Wells, and I also credit David Wells for teaching Buehrle how to pitch and become an ace. Clayton for Aaron Myette? Where is Myette right now? He can't even crack the god-awful Texas staff. Singleton for Willie Harris? At one point, even Clayton had a better average than Singleton. Singleton is terrible and we grabbed the top prospect from a struggling organization. How about the signing of Kenny Lofton? Jeez, that was a horrible move right? Clayton? OK, maybe the worst signing (although I know a number of you will disagree) has been bust at the plate, but his defense is solid and not everyone is going to be a stud hitter in the line-up. The only trade I can think of right now that was an absolute bust was the Fordyce and the young pitchers for Baines and Johnson. Johnson was a good addition, but I think the man upstairs foisted Baines on this team. Nothing Williams can do there, go talk to Uncle Jerry.




Wasn't the Fordyce trade a Schueler deal?

DrCrawdad
05-21-2002, 07:20 AM
Originally posted by CLR01
Wasn't the Fordyce trade a Schueler deal?

Yes.

GASHWOUND
05-21-2002, 10:12 AM
Sigh...I think we can all say that we're just not a good team as of right now.
Its gonna take a big leap for us just to jump up to be a "GOOD TEAM." Right now we're really pathetic and a long way from even being respected by the media and other great clubs. how many good teams get beat, 16-1, 10-0, 15-4, 19-0, 9-0? Those are just some of the pathetic losses we have had. I'm getting sick and tired of this nonsense and lack of heart we display alot of the time. That goodness we play in this crappy division or we wouldn't be sniffing a playoff spot. When the hell are we gonna show some initiative?
Damn, we're just awful right now. I wouldn't be surprised if we were swept in this series. If they are gonna prove me wrong than they better show it in these 2 last final games against probably the best team in baseball, and not the next series against the Tigers.
Beating up on them won't prove a DAMN thing. Geez, I'm f'n embarrassed to even watch the Sox games when we play good teams.
Come on Sox, get your heads outa your asses.