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View Full Version : FoxSports Says The Swisher Trade Is The Prelude To Something Much Bigger.


Thome25
11-14-2008, 09:25 AM
Ken Rosenthal believes the trade of Swisher is just the beginning and KW is up to something bigger. Stay tuned.

Here's the link:

http://msn.foxsports.com/mlb/story/8793068/ChiSox-GM-is-up-to-something-...-but-what??CMP=OTC-K9B140813162&ATT=49

What do you think?

doublem23
11-14-2008, 09:30 AM
What do you think?

:popcorn:

champagne030
11-14-2008, 09:50 AM
Ken Rosenthal believes the trade of Swisher is just the beginning and KW is up to something bigger. Stay tuned.

Here's the link:

http://msn.foxsports.com/mlb/story/8793068/ChiSox-GM-is-up-to-something-...-but-what??CMP=OTC-K9B140813162&ATT=49

What do you think?

I hope so because, like the article states, the Swisher trade makes little sense other than to cut payroll.

gr8mexico
11-14-2008, 09:51 AM
I guess we have to wait till Wednesday :gulp:

Thome25
11-14-2008, 09:57 AM
I hope so because, like the article states, the Swisher trade makes little sense other than to cut payroll.

We basically got back what we gave up for Swisher. A mediocre position player and two hit-or-miss pitchers. The Swisher trade from the A's to the White Sox and then from the White Sox to the Yankees was a wash IMHO.

I'm not convinced that it was purely a salary dump because Swisher wasn't making that much.

WTS hopefully the White Sox re-invest some of this money they've been saving on Crede, Uribe, Cabrera, Swisher, etc.

CashMan
11-14-2008, 09:58 AM
I hope so because, like the article states, the Swisher trade makes little sense other than to cut payroll.


I don't think it was to cut payroll, if they wanted to do that, Dye would be gone. Perhaps they say him as a platoon player, idk. If that was the case, they swapped him for a replacement for Uribe who is cheaper, and possible 5th starter. People say Kenny gave up soo much for Swisher and got soo little, but, what have those prospects done for Oakland? I am sure Kenny is up to something, he is pretty aggressive and usually smart when trading.

esbrechtel
11-14-2008, 09:59 AM
I am excited about this offseason...I like cut-throat Kenny!

cbrownson13
11-14-2008, 09:59 AM
Please, please, please no Juan Pierre.

CashMan
11-14-2008, 10:08 AM
Please, please, please no Juan Pierre.

I am not a huge Juan Pierre fan, but 200 hits at the top of the order is hard to ignore.

Mr.1Dog
11-14-2008, 10:08 AM
Please, please, please no Juan Pierre.

I really don't see it happening. He is owed too much $$$ and I think Kenny is looking to do something under the radar.

sox1970
11-14-2008, 10:12 AM
I agree with Rosenthal. It would be very surprising if he actually sticks with Anderson/Owens in CF, Fields at 3B, and Getz/Nix at 2B. That would not be conventional Kenny Williams. I think the most likely scenario is they get a veteran CF, and Anderson is traded with Owens on the bench next year.

Craig Grebeck
11-14-2008, 10:21 AM
I am not a huge Juan Pierre fan, but 200 hits at the top of the order is hard to ignore.
Not when those 200 hits come with a terrible contract and an inability to reach base other than a chopper up the middle.

soltrain21
11-14-2008, 10:26 AM
I'm going to assume we have two more trades in us and one or two signings.

champagne030
11-14-2008, 10:32 AM
We basically got back what we gave up for Swisher. A mediocre position player and two hit-or-miss pitchers. The Swisher trade from the A's to the White Sox and then from the White Sox to the Yankees was a wash IMHO.

I'm not convinced that it was purely a salary dump because Swisher wasn't making that much.



We didn't come close to getting back what we gave up to get Swisher. The perceived value of the 3 prospects we gave up to acquire Swisher was off the charts compared to what we received for him.

$21M over 3 years for Swisher, plus Uribe's salary. That's about $10M savings in '09. That's pretty significant.

I don't think it was to cut payroll, if they wanted to do that, Dye would be gone. Perhaps they say him as a platoon player, idk. If that was the case, they swapped him for a replacement for Uribe who is cheaper, and possible 5th starter. People say Kenny gave up soo much for Swisher and got soo little, but, what have those prospects done for Oakland? I am sure Kenny is up to something, he is pretty aggressive and usually smart when trading.

See above....

Thome25
11-14-2008, 10:39 AM
We didn't come close to getting back what we gave up to get Swisher. The perceived value of the 3 prospects we gave up to acquire Swisher was off the charts compared to what we received for him.

$21M over 3 years for Swisher, plus Uribe's salary. That's about $10M savings in '09. That's pretty significant.



See above....

I'm going to repeat this for all of you who think that every time KW trades our prospects away he's giving up a future HOFer and/or Cy Young award winner.

Our farm system sucks, our prospects suck....and for the near future I WOULD NOT believe that any of them would amount to ANYTHING. What has any of the prospects that he has ever traded in the past ever done? NOTHING.

KW gave up a mediocre position player and two hit-or-miss pitchers who as of right now look like a miss for Swisher and that's just what he got back in return from the Yankees.

What was he supposed to do get AROD back from the Yankees in return for Swisher?

champagne030
11-14-2008, 10:45 AM
.

Our farm system sucks, our prospects suck....and for the near future I WOULD NOT believe that any of them would amount to ANYTHING. What has any of the prospects that he has ever traded in the past ever done? NOTHING.

KW gave up a mediocre position player and two hit-or-miss pitchers who as of right now look like a miss for Swisher and that's just what he got back in return from the Yankees.



That is in direct contrast to every scouting authority in baseball. They might end up being nothing (they were prospects), but they were very highly thought of prospects. That's not what we received in return.

doublem23
11-14-2008, 10:55 AM
That is in direct contrast to every scouting authority in baseball. They might end up being nothing (they were prospects), but they were very highly thought of prospects. That's not what we received in return.

Would that be every scouting authority that also ranked our farm system as one of the worst consistently over the last few years?

Our farm system is terrible. Everyone trying to delude themselves into visions of grandeur about Gio Gonzalez or whatever DLS's name is are just trying to find ways to rip into KW. Nobody in our farm system is worth **** right now.

Craig Grebeck
11-14-2008, 10:58 AM
Would that be every scouting authority that also ranked our farm system as one of the worst consistently over the last few years?

Our farm system is terrible. Everyone trying to delude themselves into visions of grandeur about Gio Gonzalez or whatever DLS's name is are just trying to find ways to rip into KW. Nobody in our farm system is worth **** right now.
I disagree. Our farm system is not THAT bad. I don't think it is good, or even average, but we are not the Astros. Poreda, Beckham, Danks, Carter, Allen, Getz and Hudson make for a good core of minor leaguers. We are improving year to year.

And, in terms of guys who KW has given up that have done some nice things, I still think Chris Young will be Mike Cameron II.

NLaloosh
11-14-2008, 12:05 PM
Gonzalez will be a very good starting pitcher for many years.

Sweeney will be a solid outfielder once he develops some power- still could be a few years. Not a sure thing.

DLS- a total ?

I think it was a decent risk. I happen to like Swisher as a player. At the time, I wish that the Sox would have held onto Gio.

I think Swisher will go on to have a good career and I just wish the return for him now would have been 1 player that the Sox could surely count on to help them next year.

DSpivack
11-14-2008, 12:10 PM
Gonzalez will be a very good starting pitcher for many years.

Sweeney will be a solid outfielder once he develops some power- still could be a few years. Not a sure thing.

DLS- a total ?

I think it was a decent risk. I happen to like Swisher as a player. At the time, I wish that the Sox would have held onto Gio.

I think Swisher will go on to have a good career and I just wish the return for him now would have been 1 player that the Sox could surely count on to help them next year.

Neither of those things are true. You say will be like you know they will happen. They are just as big ?s as DLS.

soltrain21
11-14-2008, 12:14 PM
Gonzalez will be a very good starting pitcher for many years.

Sweeney will be a solid outfielder once he develops some power- still could be a few years. Not a sure thing.

DLS- a total ?

I think it was a decent risk. I happen to like Swisher as a player. At the time, I wish that the Sox would have held onto Gio.

I think Swisher will go on to have a good career and I just wish the return for him now would have been 1 player that the Sox could surely count on to help them next year.


We got Betemit, who will help us just as much (if not more) than Swisher did last year.

Craig Grebeck
11-14-2008, 12:18 PM
We got Betemit, who will help us just as much (if not more) than Swisher did last year.
And you are basing this on...? 2008 is not the key. The key is that Betemit will help us as much as Swisher would have in 2009.

soltrain21
11-14-2008, 12:22 PM
And you are basing this on...? 2008 is not the key. The key is that Betemit will help us as much as Swisher would have in 2009.

I meant next year. I don't know why I worded it for 2008. Sorry.

Thome25
11-14-2008, 12:26 PM
And you are basing this on...? 2008 is not the key. The key is that Betemit will help us as much as Swisher would have in 2009.

What was in your cornflakes this morning? Was it something that let's you see the future? How the hell are we supposed to know how much Swisher would've helped us in 2009?

Even if Swisher has a big season in 2009 for the Yankees that doesn't guarantee he would have had the same success in his role with the White Sox.

All we know is what we have in front of us. We had a player in Swisher who wasn't a good fit, had no place to play, and may have been wearing out his welcome with both players and coaches. I'm glad KW traded him and hopefully they don't pocket his salary and put it back into another acquisition's contract.

russ99
11-14-2008, 12:27 PM
I agree with Rosenthal. It would be very surprising if he actually sticks with Anderson/Owens in CF, Fields at 3B, and Getz/Nix at 2B. That would not be conventional Kenny Williams. I think the most likely scenario is they get a veteran CF, and Anderson is traded with Owens on the bench next year.

Actually, I'm thinking it will be the other way around. Orlando Hudson is probably the most likely acquisition with Kenny clearing payroll, then he'll buy low at CF with someone like Tavarez or Crisp.

Craig Grebeck
11-14-2008, 12:29 PM
What was in your cornflakes this morning? Was it something that let's you see the future? How the hell are we supposed to know how much Swisher would've helped us in 2009?

Even if Swisher has a big season in 2009 for the Yankees that doesn't guarantee he would have had the same success in his role with the White Sox.

All we know is what we have in front of us. We had a player in Swisher who wasn't a good fit, had no place to play, and may have been wearing out his welcome with both players and coaches. I'm glad KW traded him and hopefully they don't pocket his salary and put it back into another acquisition's contract.
Ah yes, they threw him under the bus. I read Joe Cowley too. Not buyin' it.

sox1970
11-14-2008, 12:34 PM
Actually, I'm thinking it will be the other way around. Orlando Hudson is probably the most likely acquisition with Kenny clearing payroll, then he'll buy low at CF with someone like Tavarez or Crisp.

I think Hudson is going to get a 3 year deal from someone, so he doesn't match up well for the Sox. The future of the Sox middle infield is Alexei Ramirez and Gordon Beckham, and Beckham is too close to the majors to sign anyone to a 2-3 year deal.

I think Getz and Nix will be a suitable stopgap until Beckham comes up. And hopefully Getz does a good job so he'll have some trade value when the time comes.

CashMan
11-14-2008, 12:44 PM
I think Hudson is going to get a 3 year deal from someone, so he doesn't match up well for the Sox. The future of the Sox middle infield is Alexei Ramirez and Gordon Beckham, and Beckham is too close to the majors to sign anyone to a 2-3 year deal.

I think Getz and Nix will be a suitable stopgap until Beckham comes up. And hopefully Getz does a good job so he'll have some trade value when the time comes.


I am not going to disagree, but what are the odds someone taken in the draft this past year coming up and playing in 2010 or even in late 2009? It sounds to me, he is tearing the AFL up, but then again all I read about it, is what is posted on the minor league board.

Lukin13
11-14-2008, 12:48 PM
I am not exactly sure how the Swisher trade is an obvious tip that something bigger is on the horizon.

Unless you had Swisher penciled in at CF (Which KW squashed) he had no starting position on this team. Therefore he was expendable.

If anything the fact that we dealt away one of our bargaining chips leads me to believe it is LESS LIKELY that something big is on the horizon.

sox1970
11-14-2008, 12:55 PM
I am not going to disagree, but what are the odds someone taken in the draft this past year coming up and playing in 2010 or even in late 2009? It sounds to me, he is tearing the AFL up, but then again all I read about it, is what is posted on the minor league board.

It certainly isn't out of the question that Beckham plays for the Sox at some point in 2009. Looking at the 2005 draft, many had a cup of coffee in 2006 and/or were regulars in 2007--Troy Tulowitzki, Alex Gordon, Ryan Zimmerman, Ryan Braun. A lot of college players picked in the top 10 make it up quick, and Beckham could fall in the category.

Heffalump
11-14-2008, 12:59 PM
I'd take Pierre for CF if the Dodgers ate a huge chunk of his contract.

cbrownson13
11-14-2008, 01:10 PM
I'm going to repeat this for all of you who think that every time KW trades our prospects away he's giving up a future HOFer and/or Cy Young award winner.

Our farm system sucks, our prospects suck....and for the near future I WOULD NOT believe that any of them would amount to ANYTHING. What has any of the prospects that he has ever traded in the past ever done? NOTHING.

KW gave up a mediocre position player and two hit-or-miss pitchers who as of right now look like a miss for Swisher and that's just what he got back in return from the Yankees.

What was he supposed to do get AROD back from the Yankees in return for Swisher?

That's the thing I don't get. Everyone is SO mad now because we didn't get a big return on Swisher and we supposedly gave up a ton to get him. Don't forget how bad the White Sox farm system was ranked even before we gave them up. Sweeney is a good looking ballplayer and looks like he SHOULD have the talent, but does he really? No. He's a guy I had hoped the White Sox hung on to and he would turn into something really good. But I just didn't see it happening in his time with the Sox in '07. And certainly not with the A's in '08. His average last year was decent, but his power is just plain bad. And when you consider he's a corner outfielder, it's even worse. Gio and DLS haven't showed anything yet.

NLaloosh
11-14-2008, 01:11 PM
Neither of those things are true. You say will be like you know they will happen. They are just as big ?s as DLS.

What are you smoking? A guy that hasn't pitched above A ball is as big a ? as guys that have played in the big leagues?

CashMan
11-14-2008, 01:15 PM
Gio and DLS haven't showed anything yet.

What are you talking about? Gio showed us, he can get rocked.

cws05champ
11-14-2008, 01:17 PM
I am not going to disagree, but what are the odds someone taken in the draft this past year coming up and playing in 2010 or even in late 2009? It sounds to me, he is tearing the AFL up, but then again all I read about it, is what is posted on the minor league board.
I think the best bet to reach the majors 1st from the 2008 draft is Drew O'neil, who was an effective college releiver with a funky delivery ala Pat Neschek. If he performs well in the 1st half and we have a hole in the BP you may see him the 2nd half of 2009.

oeo
11-14-2008, 01:20 PM
What are you talking about? Gio showed us, he can get rocked.

How long are people going to use that start to make themselves feel better?

Give the guy a break. He's 23 years old, and has hopped from the Sox to the Phillies to the Sox to the A's, in four years time. That probably screwed up his development more than anything.

btrain929
11-14-2008, 01:31 PM
I think the best bet to reach the majors 1st from the 2008 draft is Drew O'neil, who was an effective college releiver with a funky delivery ala Pat Neschek. If he performs well in the 1st half and we have a hole in the BP you may see him the 2nd half of 2009.

I remember hearing all this when he was drafted. But why did he suck balls in his first year of rookie ball? 7 ERA with 22 walks in 31 innings? Uhhhmmmm, I'm prettttty sure we're not going to be seeing him in '09.

DSpivack
11-14-2008, 01:34 PM
What are you smoking? A guy that hasn't pitched above A ball is as big a ? as guys that have played in the big leagues?

You said that Gio and Sweeney will be good players. You don't know that, that is mere speculation. I don't think Sweeney ever amounts to anything other than a decent backup corner OF. I don't really see any reason to think Gio or DLS will be successful, either; sure, they have the potential to be, but that doesn't mean it's going to happen.

Tragg
11-14-2008, 02:07 PM
I'm going to repeat this for all of you who think that every time KW trades our prospects away he's giving up a future HOFer and/or Cy Young award winner.

Our farm system sucks, our prospects suck....and for the near future I WOULD NOT believe that any of them would amount to ANYTHING. What has any of the prospects that he has ever traded in the past ever done? NOTHING.


Are you saying then that our prospects have much lower value than prospects from other teams?

The point is not that we're trading away future stars...the point is that prospects have a value as prospects; did the Sox get as much as they could from 3 of their top 5 prospects. Other teams use their top 5 prospects to bring in all-star quality talent.

And on a side note, one of the 3 hit better for pitchers' park Oakland than we got out of several of our outfielders last year.

I understand that we needed to cut our losses with Swisher. He wasn't a fit. I'd prefer to see him used as a piece to get a good ballplayer on the team instead of yet more mediocre utility talent. The Yankees got Betemit for Scott Proctor.

kittle42
11-14-2008, 02:16 PM
I remember hearing all this when he was drafted. But why did he suck balls in his first year of rookie ball? 7 ERA with 22 walks in 31 innings? Uhhhmmmm, I'm prettttty sure we're not going to be seeing him in '09.

So less like Neshek and more like Wasserman, eh?

getonbckthr
11-14-2008, 02:34 PM
I'm curious if we add say Poreda and Egbert to the package we just got from the Yanks could that net us Peavy?

champagne030
11-14-2008, 02:39 PM
I'm curious if we add say Poreda and Egbert to the package we just got from the Yanks could that net us Peavy?:party::happybday Only if they throw in Adrian Gonzalez.

kittle42
11-14-2008, 02:47 PM
I'm curious if we add say Poreda and Egbert to the package we just got from the Yanks could that net us Peavy?

Ha.

Craig Grebeck
11-14-2008, 02:49 PM
I'm curious if we add say Poreda and Egbert to the package we just got from the Yanks could that net us Peavy?
Oh my God.

getonbckthr
11-14-2008, 02:51 PM
Ha.

Oh my God.
I truly have no clue to the value of what the Braves are supposedly sending to SD. Thats why I asked the question.

SoxSpeed22
11-14-2008, 03:02 PM
I truly have no clue to the value of what the Braves are supposedly sending to SD. Thats why I asked the question.From what I heard, the Braves and Padres are much further apart than it looks. I don't know either.
It's always been Kenny's MO to make smaller deals to build up for a big deal.

SoxFan88
11-14-2008, 03:15 PM
I truly have no clue to the value of what the Braves are supposedly sending to SD. Thats why I asked the question.

Yunel Escobar is part of it... the Braves also have a lot to offer from their farm... Poreda would boost any trade but the Braves have Tommy Hanson who, after a great year in the minors, is the best pitcher in the fall league

russ99
11-14-2008, 03:37 PM
I think Hudson is going to get a 3 year deal from someone, so he doesn't match up well for the Sox. The future of the Sox middle infield is Alexei Ramirez and Gordon Beckham, and Beckham is too close to the majors to sign anyone to a 2-3 year deal.

I think Getz and Nix will be a suitable stopgap until Beckham comes up. And hopefully Getz does a good job so he'll have some trade value when the time comes.

I think Beckham will be better utilized at 3B when he does come up, then Fields can be moved to 1B or DH. I hope the Sox don't rush him.

Also, I'm not at all on the Getz/Nix bandwagon for 2B. That would be an near-automatic out at the bottom of the order with a marginal defensive upgrade, especially considering they're effectively replacing OC.

In fact, I probably should print up T-shirts:

2009 White Sox
No kids, just vets.

Craig Grebeck
11-14-2008, 03:39 PM
I think Beckham will be better utilized at 3B.

Also, I'm not at all on the Getz/Nix bandwagon for 2B. That would be an near-automatic out at the end of the order with a marginal defensive upgrade.

In fact, I probably should print up T-shirts:

2009 White Sox
No kids, just vets.
Why not 2B/SS for Beckham?

Hitmen77
11-14-2008, 03:43 PM
Ken Rosenthal believes the trade of Swisher is just the beginning and KW is up to something bigger. Stay tuned.

Here's the link:

http://msn.foxsports.com/mlb/story/8793068/ChiSox-GM-is-up-to-something-...-but-what??CMP=OTC-K9B140813162&ATT=49

What do you think?

Seems to me that every time KW has made a controversial trade the last few years, everyone says "just wait, this must be once piece of other bigger roster moves"......and I can't remember when it's turned out that way.

So, I'm going to guess No - this isn't a prelude to a bigger move.

sox1970
11-14-2008, 03:56 PM
I think Beckham will be better utilized at 3B when he does come up, then Fields can be moved to 1B or DH. I hope the Sox don't rush him.

Also, I'm not at all on the Getz/Nix bandwagon for 2B. That would be an near-automatic out at the bottom of the order with a marginal defensive upgrade, especially considering they're effectively replacing OC.

There's no evidence that the Sox want to move Beckham to 3B. He has only played 2B and SS in the fall league. I think he'll stay up the middle.

I don't think Getz will be an automatic out. He's a line drive hitter that gets a ton of hits in front of the outfielders--something the Sox can use more of next year. His defense is ok too. Not a butcher in the field at all.

I'm not familiar with Nix too much, but his minor league career numbers are pretty solid.

steely712
11-14-2008, 03:58 PM
Not when those 200 hits come with a terrible contract and an inability to reach base other than a chopper up the middle.

I will take choppers up the middle all day long when you have the speed to steal 60 bases. I definitely would not mind Pierre in center, but I can only hopw that this is not one of those blockbuster deals that we have been hearing about.

johnnyg83
11-14-2008, 11:27 PM
seconded -- anyone who can get 200 hits and steal bases is welcome to leadoff, just don't want the contract.

LoveYourSuit
11-15-2008, 01:55 AM
If we put up with no wheels .334 obp% Cabrera for a full season, I don't see how Pierre would be any worse. As long as LA picks up a good chunk of that salary.


Just tell Alexei to play cut off in shallow CF if anyhting is hit to the wall.

35th and Shields
11-15-2008, 02:13 AM
Seems to me that every time KW has made a controversial trade the last few years, everyone says "just wait, this must be once piece of other bigger roster moves"......and I can't remember when it's turned out that way.

So, I'm going to guess No - this isn't a prelude to a bigger move.

Even if this is the case I really have no problem it as of now. People can say what they want about this trade but every GM makes a move that doesn't work out in their favor, but when it comes to KW, I honestly think he's one of the best GM's in all professional sports.

MHOUSE
11-15-2008, 02:32 AM
Kenny has been awesome the last 4 or 5 years, let him work and we'll re-evaluate in a month or so. Swish was one of the worst "regulars" in all of baseball last year. Sure he looked like a player coming into his prime in 2007 and we paid for such, but going forward he looks relatively lost and didn't fit here. Getting a decent bench player/stop gap in Betemit and two pitchers who we can hopefully find out what they have at the big league level in the next two years is a fine exchange for me. Trading Gio and Sweeney for Swisher a year ago in no way affects his value now as some seem to think, haha.

As far as our farm system goes, what has it produced in the last few years? Players who've come up mostly through our system who have either stuck around and helped the big league club or been highly touted at some point, we're talking Crede, Rowand, Anderson, Buehrle, Garland, that's about it. Crede has been solid for us and Buehrle has obviously been our ace for many years, but what else? And guys KW has traded, can you name any who are all stars at this point? No. Compare that to teams like Tampa Bay, Philly, Arizona, the Dodgers, the Cardinals, Braves, teams that have routinely re-stocked their MLB teams with minor league talent or have been able to trade for other players with it. The Sox system is miles away from that.

4 points
11-15-2008, 04:27 AM
Why not 2B/SS for Beckham?

2nd base base on a part-time basis, he does not have the range to be an everyday big league SS. 3rd base is the most logical destination.:cool:

4 points
11-15-2008, 04:30 AM
I will take choppers up the middle all day long when you have the speed to steal 60 bases. I definitely would not mind Pierre in center, but I can only hopw that this is not one of those blockbuster deals that we have been hearing about.

Pierre in center! If he caught a ball with his back to the wall, he could`nt throw a turtle out at the start of the warning track.:bandance::bandance::bandance:

guillen4life13
11-15-2008, 05:12 AM
I think KW is going to use that money to make some low profile acquisitions that may be diamonds in the rough. And as I have said before, I think Marquez' pitching style will thrive at the Cell.

KRS1
11-15-2008, 05:20 AM
, he does not have the range to be an everyday big league SS.

:rolleyes:

I'm not going over this craptacular statement that seems to be popular with the "amateur scouts" again, so I'll just put it simply.

You're wrong. Yes he does.

4 points
11-15-2008, 05:48 AM
:rolleyes:

I'm not going over this craptacular statement that seems to be popular with the "amateur scouts" again, so I'll just put it simply.

You're wrong. Yes he does.

Only time will tell, but I`ll bet ya a couple cold brews that he ends up playing 3rd.:gulp::gulp::gulp::gulp:

kjhanson
11-15-2008, 01:27 PM
Also, I'm not at all on the Getz/Nix bandwagon for 2B. That would be an near-automatic out at the bottom of the order with a marginal defensive upgrade, especially considering they're effectively replacing OC.


Most teams have a near-automatic out at the bottom of their lineup. We've had Uribe down there, with a lowly BA and OBP, yet we've been successful three out of the last four years.

I can't comment on Nix, but I've followed Getz for sometime, and he would be a refreshing look in the 9-hole. He's the anti-Uribe. He knows how to bunt, runs well, puts the ball in play a lot, and takes a lot of walks. Obviously that was at the minor league level, but the last two characteristics are usually indicators of a decent major league hitter. I'm not advocating to go with all kids, but there are much worse options out there.

btrain929
11-15-2008, 02:02 PM
Also, I'm not at all on the Getz/Nix bandwagon for 2B. That would be an near-automatic out at the bottom of the order with a marginal defensive upgrade, especially considering they're effectively replacing OC.

How in the world could you make a statement like that with a straight face? They both raked in the minor leagues, Nix has always been very highly touted, and he only has 56 major league AB's under his belt, so it's not like he is a AAAA player (that might be all he ends up being, but it's too early to make that conclusion).

Just because they aren't the high-priced FA everybody wants doesn't mean they'll be automatic outs....

Jurr
11-15-2008, 02:09 PM
How in the world could you make a statement like that with a straight face? They both raked in the minor leagues, Nix has always been very highly touted, and he only has 56 major league AB's under his belt, so it's not like he is a AAAA player (that might be all he ends up being, but it's too early to make that conclusion).

Just because they aren't the high-priced FA everybody wants doesn't mean they'll be automatic outs....
Yeah...ask Carlos Quentin.

Craig Grebeck
11-15-2008, 02:13 PM
Yeah...ask Carlos Quentin.
I propose a moratorium on this "just ask Carlos Quentin!" bull****. There is only one Carlos Quentin. Everyone who is either young, or struggled in the major leagues is not Carlos Quentin.

CashMan
11-15-2008, 02:14 PM
Most teams have a near-automatic out at the bottom of their lineup. We've had Uribe down there, with a lowly BA and OBP, yet we've been successful three out of the last four years.

I can't comment on Nix, but I've followed Getz for sometime, and he would be a refreshing look in the 9-hole. He's the anti-Uribe. He knows how to bunt, runs well, puts the ball in play a lot, and takes a lot of walks. Obviously that was at the minor league level, but the last two characteristics are usually indicators of a decent major league hitter. I'm not advocating to go with all kids, but there are much worse options out there.


He sounds like a #2 hitter.

champagne030
11-15-2008, 02:22 PM
I propose a moratorium on this "just ask Carlos Quentin!" bull****. There is only one Carlos Quentin. Everyone who is either young, or struggled in the major leagues is not Carlos Quentin.

I thought that Kenny traded for tNix. :cool:

California Sox
11-15-2008, 02:48 PM
2nd base base on a part-time basis, he does not have the range to be an everyday big league SS. 3rd base is the most logical destination.:cool:

Have you watched Beckham play? His range is at least MLB average. I think he profiles slightly better at second than he does at short, but he's a middle infielder. I know people hate Fields here, but it doesn't make any sense to take a guy who can be an all star in the middle infield and make him an average third baseman.

Plus, the Sox are high on Morel. They'll leave Beckham at short until he proves he can't stay there. Then he'd slide over to second. Third base is an absolute last resort and I bet we never see him there.

Craig Grebeck
11-15-2008, 02:53 PM
Have you watched Beckham play? His range is at least MLB average. I think he profiles slightly better at second than he does at short, but he's a middle infielder. I know people hate Fields here, but it doesn't make any sense to take a guy who can be an all star in the middle infield and make him an average third baseman.

Plus, the Sox are high on Morel. They'll leave Beckham at short until he proves he can't stay there. Then he'd slide over to second. Third base is an absolute last resort and I bet we never see him there.
Well said.

kjhanson
11-15-2008, 03:13 PM
He sounds like a #2 hitter.

Funny you say that. There was a question on the Minors board about Getz's future over the summer. I responded with your sentiment. He is the prototypical #2 hitter. If we were to somehow swing Figgins, I would be very confident with a 1-2 punch of Figgins and Getz at the top of the order.

dagame2005
11-15-2008, 04:28 PM
How in the world could you make a statement like that with a straight face? They both raked in the minor leagues, Nix has always been very highly touted, and he only has 56 major league AB's under his belt, so it's not like he is a AAAA player (that might be all he ends up being, but it's too early to make that conclusion).

Just because they aren't the high-priced FA everybody wants doesn't mean they'll be automatic outs....

I am as hopeful as anybody that Nix will turn out to be a good player. But, I don't think you can say Nix raked in the minors. His stats look very hit or miss to me. Though, I know stats can lie and admittedly have never seen him play.

pearso66
11-16-2008, 12:18 AM
I propose a moratorium on this "just ask Carlos Quentin!" bull****. There is only one Carlos Quentin. Everyone who is either young, or struggled in the major leagues is not Carlos Quentin.

The sad thing is, there were people here crying that the Sox traded who was it? Carter? for Quentin, even though he was just an A ball 1st baseman, there was a lot of people who were against it then.

Sure not every player will end up like him, but not every player will be Joe Borchard either. Why not just reserve judgment on these guys until they actually play. Everyone seems to be ready to label them a bust already.

Last year many people said this team would have no chance with Uribe in the lineup and BA in CF. Now that's not exactly what happened, but with Swisher in CF for most of the year, I think they would have been better off the first way. I'm not going to start another BA thread, but why not just give Getz or Nix a shot, maybe they will impress. More than likely not to the Quentin or even Ramirez caliber, but more than what Uribe or BA could give.

Lillian
11-16-2008, 09:17 AM
At this point, I wouldn't be upset if K.W. doesn't make any other major trades. The Sox can't really afford to give up any pitching, including Javy.
They don't really have any holes, except a lead off hitter.

Ideally, they could fill that hole with a Centerfielder. I don't know who is available, or what it would take to get one. A guy like Randy Winn might be a viable option. He will make $8.25M in the final year of his three year deal with the Giants. The Sox may only need him for one year, and then let him walk in exchange for the draft picks. How much could the Giants want for an older player in the last year of his contract, at $8.25M?
Jordan Danks could be ready by 2010. John Shelby could be ready a year later. Both of them can steal a base, and both are best suited for CF.

The rest of the team looks fine, with nice balance between right and left handed hitters, and youth vs veterans.

Betemit and Fields could platoon at third. Fields was very effective vs Lefties, and Betemit is better vs Righties.

Ramirez at SS

Getz and Nix battle it out for 2B, or platoon, while we wait for Beckham.

Konerko is still at 1B, with Betemit as his back up

Dye should move to Left

Quentin to RF

If they can't get a lead off hitter, Owens and Anderson platoon and compete for the job, with Jordan Danks, and John Shelby on the 2 and 3 year depth chart board.

Armstrong looks like he could be an adequate backup for A.J.

The pitching could be fine with the addition of Poreda, Marquez and Richard. Marquez is probably better suited to start, and Richard and Poreda could add depth to the Pen.

So where are the big holes that need to be urgently filled?
There aren't a lot of great minor league prospects in the organization, but we have plenty of good young players for the transition when Dye, Thome and Konerko are done.

soltrain21
11-16-2008, 10:29 AM
Dye should move to Left

Quentin to RF




Why does this board always think it's so easy for a player to just switch positions like it is no big deal? Dye has never played left (if he has, its minimal).

Lukin13
11-16-2008, 10:33 AM
Dye should move to Left Quentin to RF



You bring up a point that is not discussed here enough.

If Quentin is in LF to start the season, Ozzie will have me very puzzled.

No one wants to ruffle JD's feathers but he is no longer our best defensive corner outfielder.

I am not saying TCQ is going to be Ichiro in RF, but he will be better than Dye.

dickallen15
11-16-2008, 10:41 AM
At this point, I wouldn't be upset if K.W. doesn't make any other major trades. The Sox can't really afford to give up any pitching, including Javy.
They don't really have any holes, except a lead off hitter.

Ideally, they could fill that hole with a Centerfielder. I don't know who is available, or what it would take to get one. A guy like Randy Winn might be a viable option. He will make $8.25M in the final year of his three year deal with the Giants. The Sox may only need him for one year, and then let him walk in exchange for the draft picks. How much could the Giants want for an older player in the last year of his contract, at $8.25M?
Jordan Danks could be ready by 2010. John Shelby could be ready a year later. Both of them can steal a base, and both are best suited for CF.

The rest of the team looks fine, with nice balance between right and left handed hitters, and youth vs veterans.

Betemit and Fields could platoon at third. Fields was very effective vs Lefties, and Betemit is better vs Righties.

Ramirez at SS

Getz and Nix battle it out for 2B, or platoon, while we wait for Beckham.

Konerko is still at 1B, with Betemit as his back up

Dye should move to Left

Quentin to RF

If they can't get a lead off hitter, Owens and Anderson platoon and compete for the job, with Jordan Danks, and John Shelby on the 2 and 3 year depth chart board.

Armstrong looks like he could be an adequate backup for A.J.

The pitching could be fine with the addition of Poreda, Marquez and Richard. Marquez is probably better suited to start, and Richard and Poreda could add depth to the Pen.

So where are the big holes that need to be urgently filled?
There aren't a lot of great minor league prospects in the organization, but we have plenty of good young players for the transition when Dye, Thome and Konerko are done.

So the White Sox sign Jayson Nix a minor leaguer who hit .125 with Colorado as a free agent, after he was released by the Rockies. They pick up Marquez a guy with a 4.70 ERA at AAA last season with a weak strikeout rate. And get Wilson Betimet a part timer as well and you think this team that wasn't good enough last year is set for 2009? There are plenty of holes. How have they addressed team speed? What about OBP? Can Josh Fields really play? Chris Getz/Jayson Nix, really? BA/Jerry Owens, really? The Sox increased ticket prices, had a couple of home playoff games and had about $25 million or so come off their books. KW hasn't begun with his retooling.
While I agree JD is no great shakes in RF, I don't know where everyone gets the impression that Quentin needs to be in RF. According to many scouts, he wasn't very good defensively in LF in 2008.

dickallen15
11-16-2008, 10:45 AM
How in the world could you make a statement like that with a straight face? They both raked in the minor leagues, Nix has always been very highly touted, and he only has 56 major league AB's under his belt, so it's not like he is a AAAA player (that might be all he ends up being, but it's too early to make that conclusion).

Just because they aren't the high-priced FA everybody wants doesn't mean they'll be automatic outs....


If Nix is so great, how come when he was waived, no one claimed him?

gr8mexico
11-16-2008, 11:02 AM
If Nix is so great, how come when he was waived, no one claimed him?
Because the Sox signed him as a free agent. Nix seems like a good player and was improving last year. He made the 2008 Olympic team.

getonbckthr
11-16-2008, 01:00 PM
If Nix is so great, how come when he was waived, no one claimed him?
I believe he was waived for Olympic reasons.

btrain929
11-16-2008, 01:17 PM
So the White Sox sign Jayson Nix a minor leaguer who hit .125 with Colorado as a free agent, after he was released by the Rockies. They pick up Marquez a guy with a 4.70 ERA at AAA last season with a weak strikeout rate. And get Wilson Betimet a part timer as well and you think this team that wasn't good enough last year is set for 2009? There are plenty of holes. How have they addressed team speed? What about OBP? Can Josh Fields really play? Chris Getz/Jayson Nix, really? BA/Jerry Owens, really? The Sox increased ticket prices, had a couple of home playoff games and had about $25 million or so come off their books. KW hasn't begun with his retooling.
While I agree JD is no great shakes in RF, I don't know where everyone gets the impression that Quentin needs to be in RF. According to many scouts, he wasn't very good defensively in LF in 2008.

Bold1: Funny how you don't mention his .125 avg was only over 50-something major league AB's.
Bold2: What was Danks' and Floyd's ERA's the 2 minor league seasons right before they were acquired? You don't know, so I'll tell you: Danks = 4.24 in '08 and 4.38 in '07. Floyd = 4.23 in '08 and 6.16 in '07. As far as strikeout rate, Marquez is sinkerball pitcher. He pitches to contact. I'll take that over a K pitcher who gives up a ****load of HR's.

I agree this team still has holes, but your supporting argument for that is pretty bad.

Lillian
11-16-2008, 01:21 PM
I'll trust Kenny Williams. Thanks for the responses.

dickallen15
11-16-2008, 01:27 PM
Bold1: Funny how you don't mention his .125 avg was only over 50-something major league AB's.
Bold2: What was Danks' and Floyd's ERA's the 2 minor league seasons right before they were acquired? You don't know, so I'll tell you: Danks = 4.24 in '08 and 4.38 in '07. Floyd = 4.23 in '08 and 6.16 in '07. As far as strikeout rate, Marquez is sinkerball pitcher. He pitches to contact. I'll take that over a K pitcher who gives up a ****load of HR's.

I agree this team still has holes, but your supporting argument for that is pretty bad.

Nix was given the starting job with the Rockies last year. He was so horrible he was sent to the minor after 56 AB and then waived, where no one claimed him. He's a strikeout machine. Another low OBP swing for the fences type. He played AAA in Colorado Springs. He had nice numbers put you may want to look at the team's numbers as well. Its a launching pad like no other.

Danks' 2 minor league seasons before he came to Chicago he was 20 and 21 years old. Huge difference.

Floyd had an ERA of 3.12 in Charlotte in 2007.

24 year olds in AAA with high ERA's and low strikeout rates usually don't have much success in the major leagues. BTW, you don't like guys who give up homers, well, he gave up 12 in 80 AAA innings.

dickallen15
11-16-2008, 01:31 PM
I believe he was waived for Olympic reasons.
No. Clayton Richard was on the Olympic team. He didn't get waived.

Lip Man 1
11-16-2008, 03:50 PM
When the Sox called up Richard he had to decide if he wanted to play in the Olympics or with the Sox.

That decision probably only took a millisecond to make!

Lip

Lillian
11-17-2008, 07:08 AM
Nix was given the starting job with the Rockies last year. He was so horrible he was sent to the minor after 56 AB and then waived, where no one claimed him. He's a strikeout machine. Another low OBP swing for the fences type. He played AAA in Colorado Springs. He had nice numbers put you may want to look at the team's numbers as well. Its a launching pad like no other.


I understand that his strike out rate did go up last year at AAA. In just half a season, he did strike out 24% of the time, as compared with 18% the year before. However, his Slugging % did go up to .591. It certainly isn't unusual for a hitter to strike out that frequently while putting up those kinds of power stats; 21 doubles and 17 homers in just 264 at bats.
I have read that he needs to get back to cutting down on his swing, and not trying to 'kill' the ball. I think the writer suggested "staying within himself". Nix certainly doesn't need to be called upon to put up big power numbers on the Sox, with all of their home run hitters. Let's hope that he gets the right message.

Regarding the ball park being a "launching pad". I didn't know that. The dimensions are pretty big; 350' down the lines, and 410 to Center.
However, I didn't think about the thin air in Colorado Springs.

HebrewHammer
11-18-2008, 12:54 AM
The rest of the team looks fine, with nice balance between right and left handed hitters, and youth vs veterans.

Betemit and Fields could platoon at third. Fields was very effective vs Lefties, and Betemit is better vs Righties.

Ramirez at SS

Getz and Nix battle it out for 2B, or platoon, while we wait for Beckham.

Konerko is still at 1B, with Betemit as his back up

Dye should move to Left

Quentin to RF

If they can't get a lead off hitter, Owens and Anderson platoon and compete for the job, with Jordan Danks, and John Shelby on the 2 and 3 year depth chart board.

Armstrong looks like he could be an adequate backup for A.J.

The pitching could be fine with the addition of Poreda, Marquez and Richard. Marquez is probably better suited to start, and Richard and Poreda could add depth to the Pen.

So where are the big holes that need to be urgently filled?
There aren't a lot of great minor league prospects in the organization, but we have plenty of good young players for the transition when Dye, Thome and Konerko are done.

If that team ever actually took the field, they would be lucky to win 60 games.

I'm thrilled that we have a GM that would never allow the White Sox to have a roster that mediocre.

kittle42
11-18-2008, 06:16 AM
If that team ever actually took the field, they would be lucky to win 60 games.

I'm thrilled that we have a GM that would never allow the White Sox to have a roster that mediocre.

100% agree.

Lillian
11-18-2008, 06:51 AM
If that team ever actually took the field, they would be lucky to win 60 games.

I'm thrilled that we have a GM that would never allow the White Sox to have a roster that mediocre.

I assume that your post is simply hyperbole. You can't really believe that they would "be lucky to win 60 games".

It is basically last year's team with Fields and or Betemit at third instead of Crede and Uribe. And Nix and or Getz instead of Cabrera.
What did Crede, Uribe and Cabrera contribute that is so irreplaceable?
The intriguing thing to me is that you have 4 young, potentially decent players to fill 2 spots. I don't think that it is at all unreasonable to hope that between Fields, Betemit, Nix and Getz that the Sox can find 2 adequate performers. But then apparently I have more confidence in K.W. than you guys do.
Moreover, we can assume that he will upgrade at least one position, given the money that has been taken off the payroll. As I said, a speedy leadoff hitter in Center would be my preference, but again I trust Kenny.

Lillian
11-18-2008, 07:54 AM
Here are some revealing stats to consider:
2008 season totals
Cabrera .281 Avg .334 OBP .371 SLG
J.Crede .248 Avg .314 OBP .460 SLG
J. Uribe .247 Avg .296 OBP .386 SLG

Combined they produced the following:

1320 AB .264 Avg. .319 OBP .397 SLG

Betemit .260 Avg. .325 OBP .437 SLG in his brief career
J. Fields .244 Avg. .308 OBP .480 SLG in his one full season

Nix and Getz do not have sufficient MLB experience to judge, but I don't think it's a stretch to suggest that one or the other, or even both, should be able to post better numbers than the combined stats of Cabrera, Crede and Uribe.
All 4 of them are young, with limited MLB playing time, and good upside potential.
The possibility of a platoon between Betemit and Fields is intriguing. Betemit hits righties very well, and Fields just killed Lefties in 2007.
I understand that they are not as good defensively, however remember that Crede was not up to his normal standards at Third last year. But we're talking about Third and Second. SS should be fine with Alexei back at his natural position. Moreover, the only one of these four guys who isn't considered a decent defender is Fields, and I would expect that he might only start against Lefties.

Even without other additions to this team, isn't it a little extreme to suggest that last year's team, with these changes would cost the Sox 29 wins?

PennStater98r
11-18-2008, 06:46 PM
Not when those 200 hits come with a terrible contract and an inability to reach base other than a chopper up the middle.

Don't forget the arm that bouces it to the cut-off man.

PennStater98r
11-18-2008, 06:48 PM
What was he supposed to do get AROD back from the Yankees in return for Swisher?

That would have been a good start - we would have used Cano as well.

WhiteSox1989
11-18-2008, 10:31 PM
I certainly hope so.

HebrewHammer
11-18-2008, 10:42 PM
I assume that your post is simply hyperbole. You can't really believe that they would "be lucky to win 60 games".

It is basically last year's team with Fields and or Betemit at third instead of Crede and Uribe. And Nix and or Getz instead of Cabrera.
What did Crede, Uribe and Cabrera contribute that is so irreplaceable?
The intriguing thing to me is that you have 4 young, potentially decent players to fill 2 spots. I don't think that it is at all unreasonable to hope that between Fields, Betemit, Nix and Getz that the Sox can find 2 adequate performers. But then apparently I have more confidence in K.W. than you guys do.
Moreover, we can assume that he will upgrade at least one position, given the money that has been taken off the payroll. As I said, a speedy leadoff hitter in Center would be my preference, but again I trust Kenny.

I think it is completely unreasonable to think that any of those 4 zombies should be part of a major league starting lineup.

Crede was an all-star last year wasn't he? Juan Uribe was, erm, competent. Cabrera was a league average SS for all-star money. They were all replacable, but they should be replaced by better players.

Josh Fields is Kenny Williams next great first round bust, while Wilson Betemit is about 3 years away from working as a greeter at Wal-Mart.

Nix and Getz should only be competing for starting jobs in Charlotte.

Jerry Owens should not be on a 25-man roster. I would be open to Brian Anderson getting a shot at starting, but only if there is a competent major league caliber replacement readily available.

You also suggested that 3 of our not quite ready for prime time minor league pitchers should be key components to our 2009 pitching staff. The idea of Richard, Poreda and Marquez pitching anywhere other than Charlotte makes me want to vomit.

Kenny would never be stupid enough to have almost half our roster populated by guys who are borderline major leaguers. We tried that in '07.

kittle42
11-19-2008, 01:10 AM
I think it is completely unreasonable to think that any of those 4 zombies should be part of a major league starting lineup.

Crede was an all-star last year wasn't he? Juan Uribe was, erm, competent. Cabrera was a league average SS for all-star money. They were all replacable, but they should be replaced by better players.

Josh Fields is Kenny Williams next great first round bust, while Wilson Betemit is about 3 years away from working as a greeter at Wal-Mart.

Nix and Getz should only be competing for starting jobs in Charlotte.

Jerry Owens should not be on a 25-man roster. I would be open to Brian Anderson getting a shot at starting, but only if there is a competent major league caliber replacement readily available.

You also suggested that 3 of our not quite ready for prime time minor league pitchers should be key components to our 2009 pitching staff. The idea of Richard, Poreda and Marquez pitching anywhere other than Charlotte makes me want to vomit.

Kenny would never be stupid enough to have almost half our roster populated by guys who are borderline major leaguers. We tried that in '07.

Amen!

Lillian
11-19-2008, 07:05 AM
Some of your comments are pretty over the top.
All I'm saying is that it doesn't seem unreasonable to me to expect the quartet of Betemit, Fields, Nix and Getz to put up better numbers than these:
.264 Average, .319 OBP and .397 SLG % produced last year by the combined efforts of Crede, Uribe and Cabrera.
They will earn very little, and the payroll now has some flexibility to add something significant.

Rejecting that argument out of hand is a little unreasonable, and I suspect that Mr. Williams would agree with that assessment.
I start from a different perspective than many on this board. In view of Kenny's track record, I would rather give him the benefit of doubt.
When he trades for a young guy who is a former number one prospect like Betemit, and signs another highly regarded young prospect like Nix, I don't assume that he is a fool.
In that these players have had limited opportunities and shown promise at one stage or another of their brief careers, don't you suppose that maybe Kenny knows what he's doing?
I'm not saying that K.W. never makes a mistake, but only that I trust his judgement. What would make me begin to question him would be if he did something as foolish as sign some high priced F.A. to play Second, when he has Beckham in the wings. In the same way, he may also be trying to acquire the young Cuban to play Third in the near future, and therefore not be interested in signing any other high priced talent for that position.

oeo
11-19-2008, 08:12 AM
Kenny would never be stupid enough to have almost half our roster populated by guys who are borderline major leaguers. We tried that in '07.

Well, not really. It wasn't until we had a plethora of injuries that we had to see Owens, Gonzalez, and the like.

Heffalump
11-19-2008, 09:30 AM
I think it is completely unreasonable to think that any of those 4 zombies should be part of a major league starting lineup.

Crede was an all-star last year wasn't he? Juan Uribe was, erm, competent. Cabrera was a league average SS for all-star money. They were all replacable, but they should be replaced by better players.

Josh Fields is Kenny Williams next great first round bust, while Wilson Betemit is about 3 years away from working as a greeter at Wal-Mart.

Nix and Getz should only be competing for starting jobs in Charlotte.

Jerry Owens should not be on a 25-man roster. I would be open to Brian Anderson getting a shot at starting, but only if there is a competent major league caliber replacement readily available.

You also suggested that 3 of our not quite ready for prime time minor league pitchers should be key components to our 2009 pitching staff. The idea of Richard, Poreda and Marquez pitching anywhere other than Charlotte makes me want to vomit.

Kenny would never be stupid enough to have almost half our roster populated by guys who are borderline major leaguers. We tried that in '07.

Lillian - It's the same as always......Fans like these want KW is sign/trade for a "Babe Ruth" at every position. They simply don't understand the realities of baseball and can't accept the structure of a realistic team. You can't hold a rational debate here.

Madscout
11-19-2008, 09:33 AM
Well, not really. It wasn't until we had a plethora of injuries that we had to see Owens, Gonzalez, and the like.
Darin Erstad was starting.

Lillian
11-19-2008, 10:06 AM
Lillian - It's the same as always......Fans like these want KW is sign/trade for a "Babe Ruth" at every position. They simply don't understand the realities of baseball and can't accept the structure of a realistic team. You can't hold a rational debate here.

Yes, I think you're right. Thanks for pointing it out.

Craig Grebeck
11-19-2008, 10:12 AM
Some of your comments are pretty over the top.
All I'm saying is that it doesn't seem unreasonable to me to expect the quartet of Betemit, Fields, Nix and Getz to put up better numbers than these:
.264 Average, .319 OBP and .397 SLG % produced last year by the combined efforts of Crede, Uribe and Cabrera.
They will earn very little, and the payroll now has some flexibility to add something significant.

Rejecting that argument out of hand is a little unreasonable, and I suspect that Mr. Williams would agree with that assessment.
I start from a different perspective than many on this board. In view of Kenny's track record, I would rather give him the benefit of doubt.
When he trades for a young guy who is a former number one prospect like Betemit, and signs another highly regarded young prospect like Nix, I don't assume that he is a fool.
In that these players have had limited opportunities and shown promise at one stage or another of their brief careers, don't you suppose that maybe Kenny knows what he's doing?
I'm not saying that K.W. never makes a mistake, but only that I trust his judgement. What would make me begin to question him would be if he did something as foolish as sign some high priced F.A. to play Second, when he has Beckham in the wings. In the same way, he may also be trying to acquire the young Cuban to play Third in the near future, and therefore not be interested in signing any other high priced talent for that position.
He didn't sign Nix so he could start at 2B, he signed him to give him a shot at the 25 man and eventually find his way down to Charlotte. He sucks. One can be an objective observer and point that out.

NLaloosh
11-19-2008, 10:38 AM
i think it is completely unreasonable to think that any of those 4 zombies should be part of a major league starting lineup.

Crede was an all-star last year wasn't he? Juan uribe was, erm, competent. Cabrera was a league average ss for all-star money. They were all replacable, but they should be replaced by better players.

Josh fields is kenny williams next great first round bust, while wilson betemit is about 3 years away from working as a greeter at wal-mart.

Nix and getz should only be competing for starting jobs in charlotte.

Jerry owens should not be on a 25-man roster. I would be open to brian anderson getting a shot at starting, but only if there is a competent major league caliber replacement readily available.

You also suggested that 3 of our not quite ready for prime time minor league pitchers should be key components to our 2009 pitching staff. The idea of richard, poreda and marquez pitching anywhere other than charlotte makes me want to vomit.

Kenny would never be stupid enough to have almost half our roster populated by guys who are borderline major leaguers. We tried that in '07.


thank you thank you thank you

sanity is a good thing

munchman33
11-19-2008, 11:39 AM
He didn't sign Nix so he could start at 2B, he signed him to give him a shot at the 25 man and eventually find his way down to Charlotte. He sucks. One can be an objective observer and point that out.

Agreed. Nix was picked up in case we go young at second. If we don't sign a middle infielder, he'll be Getz's primary competition. And while he does have some talent, he's really only here as a safety net in case Getz is an absolute bust.

sox1970
11-19-2008, 11:44 AM
Agreed. Nix was picked up in case we go young at second. If we don't sign a middle infielder, he'll be Getz's primary competition. And while he does have some talent, he's really only here as a safety net in case Getz is an absolute bust.

I think Getz will start against righties, and Nix will start against lefties. Getz can play short a little bit too, so he can give Ramirez a day off here and there.

Getz/Nix is a stopgap for Beckham. Hopefully one or both do well, and will be good trade bait when the time comes.

btrain929
11-19-2008, 02:42 PM
It's been very quiet on the White Sox trade rumor front the past few days...
It's Wednesday...
I'm not sayin', I'm just sayin'...

oeo
11-19-2008, 02:45 PM
Darin Erstad was starting.

That's half the roster? :?:

Besides, Erstad was an absolute last resort. It wasn't like he was a big pick up, he wasn't signed until February, IIRC.

Konerko05
11-19-2008, 04:39 PM
The Sox need to upgrade at least one of the three positions - 2B, 3B, CF.

If the Sox acquire Roberts/Hudson to play 2B, I would be fine with Fields at 3B and Anderson in CF.

If the Sox acquire Figgins to play 3B, I would be fine with Getz at 2B and Anderson in CF.

I am a little worried if the Sox only upgrade at CF. An infield of Fields-Ramirez-Getz really scares me. It's quite horrifying actually.

Jim Shorts
11-19-2008, 05:47 PM
Lillian - It's the same as always......Fans like these want KW is sign/trade for a "Babe Ruth" at every position. They simply don't understand the realities of baseball and can't accept the structure of a realistic team. You can't hold a rational debate here.

I, for one, don't want Babe Ruth playing anywhere on my infield. A) He has no range and B) he's dead now.

HebrewHammer
11-21-2008, 01:21 AM
Some of your comments are pretty over the top.
All I'm saying is that it doesn't seem unreasonable to me to expect the quartet of Betemit, Fields, Nix and Getz to put up better numbers than these:
.264 Average, .319 OBP and .397 SLG % produced last year by the combined efforts of Crede, Uribe and Cabrera.
They will earn very little, and the payroll now has some flexibility to add something significant.

Rejecting that argument out of hand is a little unreasonable, and I suspect that Mr. Williams would agree with that assessment.
I start from a different perspective than many on this board. In view of Kenny's track record, I would rather give him the benefit of doubt.
When he trades for a young guy who is a former number one prospect like Betemit, and signs another highly regarded young prospect like Nix, I don't assume that he is a fool.
In that these players have had limited opportunities and shown promise at one stage or another of their brief careers, don't you suppose that maybe Kenny knows what he's doing?
I'm not saying that K.W. never makes a mistake, but only that I trust his judgement. What would make me begin to question him would be if he did something as foolish as sign some high priced F.A. to play Second, when he has Beckham in the wings. In the same way, he may also be trying to acquire the young Cuban to play Third in the near future, and therefore not be interested in signing any other high priced talent for that position.

So, in Lillian's world, Betemit, Getz, Fields and Nix are better baseball players than Crede, Uribe and Cabrera. Also, signing a high priced 2B is foolish, but starting the season with a platoon of Getz and Nix is genius. :rolleyes:

I believe KW knows what he's doing. I also believe that he's not finished. Anyone who believes that our '09 roster is ready on November 20th is foolish. There is no way we start the season with the 4-headed backup infielder monster taking up half the infield. In view of Kenny's track record, when has he ever just found a player to fill a spot? Kenny Williams tries to get the best player he can.

I never said I wanted Babe Ruth at 9 positions, but I don't want see a White Sox roster filled with borderline major league talent. I'll never understand why people get so excited over mediocre baseball players.

I also like how you just assume that Becks and Dayan are going to show up one day and rescue us from your mediocre infield. What if they don't? Do you really want to be stuck with this group for the next few years?

Let me ask you this, how many successful baseball teams have retooled an infield using a group of career minor leaguers? If the answer is higher than 0, I'll be impressed.

Lip Man 1
11-21-2008, 12:32 PM
In my opinion Hebrew makes some very valid points.

Lip