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View Full Version : Poll:worst Kenny Williams trade?


NLaloosh
11-14-2008, 01:37 AM
I think that it's safe to say that Kenny Williams is among the best GM's in baseball - surely a top 10 GM. And, Sox fans surely have a lot to thank Kenny for in his tenure as GM and he clearly has made many outstanding acqusitions.

However, just for kicks, I would like to document how Sox fans feel about this Swisher trade right now.

Will this return of players the Sox received from the Yankees for Nick Swisher and a solid minor league pitching prospect make this into the worst trade of Kenny's career? Where will it rank?

JermaineDye05
11-14-2008, 01:39 AM
Let's see how the guys perform in the system before we bash the trade jeez.

oeo
11-14-2008, 01:40 AM
I think that it's safe to say that Kenny Williams is among the best GM's in baseball - surely a top 10 GM. And, Sox fans surely have a lot to thank Kenny for in his tenure as GM and he clearly has made many outstanding acqusitions.

However, just for kicks, I would like to document how Sox fans feel about this Swisher trade right now.

Will this return of players the Sox received from the Yankees for Nick Swisher and a solid minor league pitching prospect make this into the worst trade of Kenny's career? Where will it rank?

:rolling:

I like how Teixeira is labeled as a 'solid minor league pitching prospect,' but the guys we got are labeled 'nothing.' Thanks for the laugh.

UofCSoxFan
11-14-2008, 01:46 AM
Not to mention judging the trade before seeing what else will be done in free agency. Yes, Swisher was relatively cheap if he was a starting and productive corner OF or 1B. For .219 bench player with no real position, he was way too costly. Him leaving frees up money to go elsewhere.

The two prospects we got could be something special. One was a former first round pick I belive. Betiment has been in pro ball for awhile but still is only 26 so who knows. I remember thinking Quinten was "nothing' at the time of the trade and we know how that worked out.

Just because we got players many have never heard of doesn't make this a bad trade. Hell, just getting Swisher out of CF, assuming we replace him with someone better than Brian Anderson, Jerry Owens, or DeWayne Wise makes our team a lot better.

NLaloosh
11-14-2008, 01:46 AM
Atleast Texeira was ranked in the Sox top 10-15 prospects.

Lundind1
11-14-2008, 01:48 AM
Todd Ritchie for Kip Wells, Josh Fogg, and Sean Lowe. If people want to think that this trade earlier was the worst, I think it will be for the Yankees. It would be the opposite for the Sox this time, with us getting some real talent for next to nothing. Right now I would say that Swishers stock price is kinda down. Please don't fall in love with a player. This may turn out to be one of the best move the Sox ever made.

oeo
11-14-2008, 01:49 AM
Atleast Texeira was ranked in the Sox top 10-15 prospects.

Marquez was ranked in the Yankees Top 10, and he actually has a shot at being in the starting rotation, while Teixeira's ceiling is likely a set up man. Look, I liked Teixeira, but get real. Marquez > Teixeira.

NLaloosh
11-14-2008, 01:49 AM
Not to mention judging the trade before seeing what else will be done in free agency. Yes, Swisher was relatively cheap if he was a starting and productive corner OF or 1B. For .219 bench player with no real position, he was way too costly. Him leaving frees up money to go elsewhere.

The two prospects we got could be something special. One was a former first round pick I belive. Betiment has been in pro ball for awhile but still is only 26 so who knows. I remember thinking Quinten was "nothing' at the time of the trade and we know how that worked out.

Just because we got players many have never heard of doesn't make this a bad trade. Hell, just getting Swisher out of CF, assuming we replace him with someone better than Brian Anderson, Jerry Owens, or DeWayne Wise makes our team a lot better.


Wrong. This trade has nothing to do with free agency at all. It has to do only with getting the most value for Nick Swisher right now.

I do agree that we don't know how this trade will turn out until time has passed and it is possible for it to be a good trade. I'm merely asking for a poll of people's opinions on the trade as of now.

NLaloosh
11-14-2008, 01:51 AM
Marquez was ranked in the Yankees Top 10, and he actually has a shot at being in the starting rotation, while Teixeira's ceiling is likely a set up man. Look, I liked Teixeira, but get real. Marquez > Teixeira.

Wrong. Marquez was not on any Yankees top 10 list for 2009 prospects.

oeo
11-14-2008, 01:53 AM
Wrong. Marquez was not on any Yankees top 10 list for 2009 prospects.

Isn't it still 2008?

He was ranked 7th by Baseball America in February.

NLaloosh
11-14-2008, 01:55 AM
Isn't it still 2008?

He was ranked 7th by Baseball America in February.

Hasn't the 2008 season been played? Did we make this trade in February 2008? His value dropped because of his poor season.

oeo
11-14-2008, 02:00 AM
Hasn't the 2008 season been played? Did we make this trade in February 2008? His value dropped because of his poor season.

That's considered a 2009 ranking? :scratch: I mean, that could be adjusted after the AFL.

It's already been mentioned that he had injury problems this year. He only threw a total of about 100 innings. Seriously, let up a little bit. Teixeira's ceiling is a set up man, while Marquez's is a mid-rotation starter. Who's better? Comparing rankings between two different organizations is silly anyway, as our minor league system is very weak.

LoveYourSuit
11-14-2008, 02:00 AM
Atleast Texeira was ranked in the Sox top 10-15 prospects.


Our farm sytem blows. Being ranked 10-15 is nothing to be excited about.

SoxSpeed22
11-14-2008, 02:23 AM
Where's 'this poll sucks?'

MHOUSE
11-14-2008, 03:17 AM
Anyways, more to the point of the thread: I voted for the Ritchie trade simply because after that season it was clearly such a waste. Ritchie was terrible and hardly pitched again while Wells and Fogg were pretty good for the Pirates. A few years later and Wells is well below average, even for the Royals, and Fogg was very mediocre/hurt this year. Neither have had much success so really it's a wash I guess.

The Koch trade certainly blew up in our face because of the high-profile position, but Foulke only lasted 2 more effective years in the league (albeit with a WS ring) and didn't we get Olivo as part of that deal? Kenny has had very few catasrophic talent swaps and most importantly no real awful FA contracts that became anchors for us. Love KW!

soxinem1
11-14-2008, 07:43 AM
The Ritchie trade sucked only because Ritchie sucked big time, especially after Jim Thome hit that 800 ft. HR against him in CLE. It was ALL down hill from there.

But Kip Wells had two decent seasons for PIT, Fogg a decent first half of his rookie year, and Sean Lowe didn't finish the season.

Brock for Broglio is a trade that blows. KW has not had any of them.

SaltyPretzel
11-14-2008, 08:18 AM
The Koch trade certainly blew up in our face because of the high-profile position, but Foulke only lasted 2 more effective years in the league (albeit with a WS ring) and didn't we get Olivo as part of that deal?

We got Neal Cotts, who did ok in '05.

DumpJerry
11-14-2008, 08:22 AM
Where's 'this poll sucks?'
Actually, this poll is ridiculous. It ignores the big picture each trade brought and make assumptions about the Swisher/Yankee deal since the guys we got have yet to play a game in the Sox organization.

Hindsight is 20/20, you have to evaluate the value of a trade based on what was known at the time the deal took place.

nasox
11-14-2008, 08:28 AM
Kenny has had very few catasrophic talent swaps and most importantly no real awful FA contracts that became anchors for us. Love KW!

I agree, but I think the lack of huge FA contracts is more a product of the organization's mentality and philosophy than it is a product of KW's genius.

Bucky F. Dent
11-14-2008, 08:51 AM
Will this return of players the Sox received from the Yankees for Nick Swisher and a solid minor league pitching prospect make this into the worst trade of Kenny's career? Where will it rank?


There's no way to answer that question now.

If Marquez slots in as our fifth starter, and Betemit capably replaces Uribe as our utility infielder, I think it will be seen as a success, and that's before you take into account what Nunez might bring to the table in the coming years.

It may call into question the deal that brought Swisher here - but the evaluation of that deal is dependent on the future production of prospects.

Law11
11-14-2008, 09:02 AM
I love how we got nothing for Swisher...
Such experts in Novemeber...

JorgeFabregas
11-14-2008, 09:16 AM
Foulke/Koch deal or MacDougal deal. He doesn't have too many bad ones.

doublem23
11-14-2008, 09:31 AM
Atleast Texeira was ranked in the Sox top 10-15 prospects.

Once again, that's because our farm system is terrible. You or I could be Top 10 prospects in the White Sox system right now.

champagne030
11-14-2008, 09:59 AM
I wish we could get a return as high as Chris Young for Javy right now.

Thome25
11-14-2008, 10:04 AM
Why does everyone assume we gave Swisher away for nothing? Why is there so many fans on here that think teams should take our garbage and give us 3 all-stars in return?

We basically got back what we gave up for Swisher in the first place. Which was a mediocre position player and two hit-or-miss pitchers. The Swisher from the A's to the White Sox and from the White Sox to the Yankees was a complete wash.

It was either trade Swisher or make him a highly overpaid platoon guy.

KenBerryGrab
11-14-2008, 10:10 AM
... and didn't we get Olivo as part of that deal? ...

No. Sox got him for Chad Bradford.

russ99
11-14-2008, 10:38 AM
There's no way to answer that question now.

If Marquez slots in as our fifth starter, and Betemit capably replaces Uribe as our utility infielder, I think it will be seen as a success, and that's before you take into account what Nunez might bring to the table in the coming years.

It may call into question the deal that brought Swisher here - but the evaluation of that deal is dependent on the future production of prospects.

I have vastly more confidence that Marquez can do better in the 5th starter spot than our retreads, Richard and Broadway. The guy has great stuff (mid 90's fading sinker, plus curveball and decent fastball), he just needs to harness it. This looks to me like Gavin Floyd all over.

And as much as we loved Swisher's antics and livening up of the clubhouse, the guy just didn't cut it at the plate, especially so later in the season in a pennant race.

So you can look at it 2 ways, we gave away Swisher for nothing, or Swisher wasn't much to give and KW pulled his usual under the radar swap for a guy who can help us next year. Betemit replaces Uribe at a lower salary, and who knows, he might put it together and start at 3B...

I think most people are up in arms about what Kenny gave up for Swisher last year rather than this specific trade, which to me is a bit ridiculous. Who's to say how Sweeney and Gio could have helped us last year? Kenny just tried to do as he saw fit to help us compete in 2008. What's done is done.

champagne030
11-14-2008, 10:41 AM
I have vastly more confidence that Marquez can do well in the 5th starter spot than our retreads (Richard and Broadway) and the guy has great stuff (mid 90's sinker, plus curveball and decent fastball), he just needs to harness it. This looks to me like Gavin Floyd all over.



I've read that he needs to ditch the curve. Where have you seen it's a plus pitch?

ode to veeck
11-14-2008, 10:53 AM
Actually, this poll is ridiculous. It ignores the big picture each trade brought and make assumptions about the Swisher/Yankee deal since the guys we got have yet to play a game in the Sox organization.

Hindsight is 20/20, you have to evaluate the value of a trade based on what was known at the time the deal took place.

no the ritchie trade sucked pure and simple, but kenny's done a pretty good job overall

russ99
11-14-2008, 10:55 AM
I've read that he needs to ditch the curve. Where have you seen it's a plus pitch?

My info is fairly old, the BBA Prospect handbook from this preseason. So maybe the Yankees coaches asked him to do that this year.

Both his curve and changeup are lesser than his sinker, but still good pitches.

Wasn't his curve also positively mentioned yesterday when the deal broke?

VenturaFan23
11-14-2008, 10:56 AM
I love how we got nothing for Swisher...
Such experts in Novemeber...

Bingo. I didn't know a trade is won or lost as soon as it's made.

ode to veeck
11-14-2008, 10:57 AM
I can't believe 8 folks voted for the swich trade to the yanks

Thome25
11-14-2008, 11:00 AM
I can't believe 8 folks voted for the swich trade to the yanks

I can't believe ANYONE voted for the Swisher trade from the A's to the White Sox.

ode to veeck
11-14-2008, 11:06 AM
I can't believe ANYONE voted for the Swisher trade from the A's to the White Sox.

there definitely were better choices to list. how about the one where kenny got a different guy than he was thinking he was getting

ode to veeck
11-14-2008, 11:09 AM
there definitely were better choices to list. how about the one where kenny got a different guy than he was thinking he was getting


how about the trade of Brian Schmack and Aaron Myette for guess who ... ?

champagne030
11-14-2008, 11:10 AM
My info is fairly old, the BBA Prospect handbook from this preseason. So maybe the Yankees coaches asked him to do that this year.

Both his curve and changeup are lesser than his sinker, but still good pitches.

Wasn't his curve also positively mentioned yesterday when the deal broke?

I've read his change is above average. I believe that was also mentioned yesterday.

VeeckAsInWreck
11-14-2008, 11:37 AM
Bingo. I didn't know a trade is won or lost as soon as it's made.

People are just over reacting because we traded someone they've "heard of" who couldn't hit for three players they've "never heard of".

Let's give this trade at least a year before we can criticize it.

Bucky F. Dent
11-14-2008, 11:38 AM
there definitely were better choices to list. how about the one where kenny got a different guy than he was thinking he was getting


You're confusing the Kenny Williams White Sox with the Bob Pulford Blackhawks

ode to veeck
11-14-2008, 11:48 AM
You're confusing the Kenny Williams White Sox with the Bob Pulford Blackhawks

lol no coincidence one of rocky's 1st moves was a new one for pulford's job

Sox4ever77
11-14-2008, 11:52 AM
My info is fairly old, the BBA Prospect handbook from this preseason. So maybe the Yankees coaches asked him to do that this year.

Both his curve and changeup are lesser than his sinker, but still good pitches.

Wasn't his curve also positively mentioned yesterday when the deal broke?

BA said his curve and change are average pitches.

Huisj
11-14-2008, 12:23 PM
BA said his curve and change are average pitches.

:anderson:
"Huh? To me, every curve is above average."

tstrike2000
11-14-2008, 12:30 PM
This poll would be somewhat legit if it didn't include the Swisher moves. Swisher seemed good at the time last year as what we gave up still may not amount to much. And I like the trade to the Yankees because Swisher just wasn't doing it for us at age 27, when players typically have breakout years, which he may still in NY. However, he's not a CF guy and I don't think has enough pop to be an everyday 1B. Betemit and the two pitchers we got back I like.

ode to veeck
11-14-2008, 12:35 PM
how about the trade of Brian Schmack and Aaron Myette for guess who ... ?

ok you guys missed it Brian Schmack and Aaron Myette for Royce Clayton

areilly
11-14-2008, 12:49 PM
ok you guys missed it Brian Schmack and Aaron Myette for Royce Clayton

Ode, you made me laugh out loud with this. Royce the Choice? Jesus.

However, I'm still holding out hope for B.J. LaMura.

MHOUSE
11-14-2008, 12:50 PM
ok you guys missed it Brian Schmack and Aaron Myette for Royce Clayton

Yeah, that was brutal when Myette won the Cy Young the following year. Oh wait... :D:

I want Mags back
11-14-2008, 01:26 PM
Wrong. This trade has nothing to do with free agency at all. It has to do only with getting the most value for Nick Swisher right now.



ahhh....no

ode to veeck
11-15-2008, 11:27 AM
:anderson:
"Huh? To me, every curve is above average."

LOL hard on that one

SOXSINCE'70
11-15-2008, 10:11 PM
My vote goes to the Todd Ritchie trade.

It seemed like a good idea at the time,but it just didn't work out.
The A.L. caught up to him after a great start,and the rest was,
sadly,history.The Belly Crotch (Billy Koch) deal ranks second with me.
The gopher ball he gave up to Carl Crawford at Tropicana Field 7/4/03
absolutely ****ed up my July 4th weekend.:angry:

turners56
11-15-2008, 11:14 PM
I'd have to go with the Koch trade. We actually gave up Foulke in that deal, who was effective for a couple of more years down the road. The Ritchie trade was bad, but we didn't give up anything good. Josh Fogg and Kip Wells are failures.

WhiteSox5187
11-16-2008, 04:22 AM
I'd have to go with the Koch trade. We actually gave up Foulke in that deal, who was effective for a couple of more years down the road. The Ritchie trade was bad, but we didn't give up anything good. Josh Fogg and Kip Wells are failures.
Long term Wells and Foog were nothing special, but if we had Wells on our team in '03 to serve as the fifth starter instead of the massive black hole we had there, we probably win the division.


My least favorite move by Kenny wasn't so much a move as a philosophy he had in '02 where when asked about the disaster of that season and that teams defensive struggles he said something along the lines of "I thought our offensive ability would compensate for our defensive shortcomings." :o:

I also don't like how it seemed as though Kenny never really considered putting a strong emphasis on pitching, defense and speed until Ozzie said that was the sort of team he wanted...but Kenny is still in the upper tier of GMs.

Ziggy S
11-16-2008, 05:14 AM
Bingo. I didn't know a trade is won or lost as soon as it's made.

I know when victory or defeat is the result before something occurs. You know the Thought Police from Minority Report? That's me, baby.

BadBobbyJenks
11-16-2008, 05:20 AM
From what I have read the supposed top 10 Yankee prospect was going to be in the 20-30 range for next season.

We got more than nothing for Swisher, but how much more?

fozzy
11-16-2008, 06:31 AM
i think at some point and time we're going to think the richar for cunningham trade is going to be the worst.

turners56
11-16-2008, 11:45 AM
BTW, where's the option for the Carl Everett deal #2? Did he really have to bring Carl back for 04 too?

Domeshot17
11-16-2008, 11:58 AM
Why does everyone assume we gave Swisher away for nothing? Why is there so many fans on here that think teams should take our garbage and give us 3 all-stars in return?

We basically got back what we gave up for Swisher in the first place. Which was a mediocre position player and two hit-or-miss pitchers. The Swisher from the A's to the White Sox and from the White Sox to the Yankees was a complete wash.

It was either trade Swisher or make him a highly overpaid platoon guy.

I am sorry this is 100% wrong. Well maybe 98% wrong, you were right we dealt 3 guys for Swish and Got 3 back.

But Beyond that, Even guys like OEO who don't agree with me will agree the 3 we dealt > the 3 we got back. I am not saying we did not Swisher's current value back, I am not saying trading him made no sense.

But Before last season, DLS was ranked somewhere between 40 and 60 in every major top 100 prospect poll. Gio was somewhere between 50 and 80, Sweeney unranked. To give you an idea of how tough this is, Poreda currently sits on the 60-100 slot. DLS was our top prospect with Gio being 2 and Sweeney about 8.

We got back Betemit, who maybe ends up being a wash for Sweeney, but Sweeney has more upside. but DLS >>>>> Marquez even after the Tommy John, and Gio is worlds better then Nunez. Marquez has a celing, the best he likely will be, of a middle rotation starter. Nunez throws hard but its likely **** or get off the pot time for his career. DLS has front of the rotation potential, probably a 2nd starter. Gio projects as a good 2 if he starts learning HOW to pitch.

To think the sox broke even becaue they dealt 3 guys for 3 guys is horrible. That is like saying we should trade Carlos Quentin for Fernando Tatis, because both teams get a LF who can hit some homers.

Brian26
11-16-2008, 04:55 PM
BTW, where's the option for the Carl Everett deal #2? Did he really have to bring Carl back for 04 too?

Carl Everett played a huge role for the team in '05. Nothing wrong with that trade at all.

turners56
11-16-2008, 05:42 PM
Carl Everett played a huge role for the team in '05. Nothing wrong with that trade at all.

I thought he re-signed with us in 05, or was that an option?

PeoriaSoxFan
11-17-2008, 09:49 PM
I stumbled on this link tonight. If this trade were made, this truly would be the worst KW trade ever. This has to be completely bogus. Of couse, I am not even sure of the source of this site.

http://bleacherreport.com/articles/82881-latest-jake-peavy-to-chicago-cubs-trade-rumbling

My worst trade ever for KW though would have to be the Todd Ritchie trade, although the Koch trade was nearly as bad given the extreme frustration old Billy cost me over his Sox career.

champagne030
11-17-2008, 09:52 PM
I stumbled on this link tonight. If this trade were made, this truly would be the worst KW trade ever. This has to be completely bogus.

http://bleacherreport.com/articles/82881-latest-jake-peavy-to-chicago-cubs-trade-rumbling

Holy Moses....Did Ronnie Woo Woo write that article?

oeo
11-17-2008, 10:08 PM
Holy Moses....Did Ronnie Woo Woo write that article?

Haha. Funny how they fill all their holes with one trade.

Dan Mega
11-17-2008, 10:14 PM
Someone needs to do their Chicago duty to this abomination of a poll.

Taliesinrk
11-17-2008, 10:20 PM
he's a cubs fan.. and full of it

ChiSoxFan81
11-18-2008, 10:27 AM
I stumbled on this link tonight. If this trade were made, this truly would be the worst KW trade ever. This has to be completely bogus. Of couse, I am not even sure of the source of this site.

http://bleacherreport.com/articles/82881-latest-jake-peavy-to-chicago-cubs-trade-rumbling

My worst trade ever for KW though would have to be the Todd Ritchie trade, although the Koch trade was nearly as bad given the extreme frustration old Billy cost me over his Sox career.

Well, now I know why I've never heard of this site. The National Enquirerer has to be more credible than this rubbish.

KenBerryGrab
11-18-2008, 10:40 AM
Gio projects as a good 2 if he starts learning HOW to pitch.


And there is the rub. I think the kid's too jittery/upset by little things to ever reach his potential.