PDA

View Full Version : Swisher to Yankees II


voodoochile
11-13-2008, 11:26 PM
Continued...

RockJock07
11-13-2008, 11:37 PM
Read the entire thread, I'm ok with the deal. I liked Swisher however I think it was apperent early that he and Ozzie were going to butt heads at some point. Look Ozzie is Ozzie and when you have to personalities like that they are going to clash. I have a feeling that many of the players also grew tired of Swishers antics.

This isn't a big loss. However I don't think this closes the book on trading Dye. I say that because maybe the sox would re-visit moving fields to the OF again and move Carlos over to his natural position. I wouldn't really like it but maybe that's the thought here.

Also I know it's not a ton of money but maybe Kenny's going to need to bump up this offer to the cuban 3b a little.

Hell, who knows, the first day of FA should be very fun.

btrain929
11-14-2008, 12:11 AM
I think if you look at it strictly from a numbers standpoint (Swisher's 2008 stats and what he was making vs the people we got in return), it's not too bad of a deal. Could we have gotten a better package from another team? Maybe, but we'll never know.

I think the main thing people have a problem with is how much we gave up to get him in the first place, just to see him falter. If Swisher just would have given us the ole' famous "career averages" last year, he'd still be here and that trade to get him would look like robbery. He performed well below those numbers with no reasons to point to (no injuries, no switching of leagues, etc). So, KW acted accordingly.

I just remember when Danks got here, he had a great fastball and a great curveball. His changeup was still developing and he didn't have a cutter. He has made great strides since then. Hopefully Marquez can come, throw that hard sinker, great change, and develop his curve. Nunez hopefully has found his niche in the bullpen, and Betemit will just be the utility guy we need for the infield + a ton more upside than other utility guys out there like Hairston Jr or Ramon Martinez.

But, I tend to be an optimist after KW's trades and these are all best-case scenario end-results. Time will tell how close they get to these expectations.

Domeshot17
11-14-2008, 12:19 AM
I think if you look at it strictly from a numbers standpoint (Swisher's 2008 stats and what he was making vs the people we got in return), it's not too bad of a deal. Could we have gotten a better package from another team? Maybe, but we'll never know.

I think the main thing people have a problem with is how much we gave up to get him in the first place, just to see him falter. If Swisher just would have given us the ole' famous "career averages" last year, he'd still be here and that trade to get him would look like robbery. He performed well below those numbers with no reasons to point to (no injuries, no switching of leagues, etc). So, KW acted accordingly.

I just remember when Danks got here, he had a great fastball and a great curveball. His changeup was still developing and he didn't have a cutter. He has made great strides since then. Hopefully Marquez can come, throw that hard sinker, great change, and develop his curve. Nunez hopefully has found his niche in the bullpen, and Betemit will just be the utility guy we need for the infield + a ton more upside than other utility guys out there like Hairston Jr or Ramon Martinez.

But, I tend to be an optimist after KW's trades and these are all best-case scenario end-results. Time will tell how close they get to these expectations.

again, I don't think most people have a problem with this trade, per say. They don't have a problem saying Swisher had no position here, and Ozzie and Swish never saw eye to eye. Looking totally at this alone, it isn't a bad trade. Swish for a utility IF a future MR and a guy who falls somewhere between 4th sp-good MR.

The problem is, thats a terrible return for Gio-DLS-Sweeney. That package should have netted a thunderous middle of the order bat, or a number 1 sp (or close). Those guys, if still here, maybe brings in a Brian Roberts. I know Kenny comes out a head in the long run most times pulling the Quentin for Carter deals off, but it doesn't change he has these blowups in him every once in a while (and before I get 10 more pages of crap on this, I am not saying he is a bad GM, but this is one of the 2 biggest flaws of Kenny. Over Aggression to get his guy, sometimes at ANY COST).

johnnyg83
11-14-2008, 12:39 AM
again, I don't think most people have a problem with this trade, per say. They don't have a problem saying Swisher had no position here, and Ozzie and Swish never saw eye to eye. Looking totally at this alone, it isn't a bad trade. Swish for a utility IF a future MR and a guy who falls somewhere between 4th sp-good MR.

The problem is, thats a terrible return for Gio-DLS-Sweeney. That package should have netted a thunderous middle of the order bat, or a number 1 sp (or close). Those guys, if still here, maybe brings in a Brian Roberts. I know Kenny comes out a head in the long run most times pulling the Quentin for Carter deals off, but it doesn't change he has these blowups in him every once in a while (and before I get 10 more pages of crap on this, I am not saying he is a bad GM, but this is one of the 2 biggest flaws of Kenny. Over Aggression to get his guy, sometimes at ANY COST).


Hard to see the future of course, but Sweeney doesn't figure to produce as a corner OF and Gio looks shell shocked. The rub will be DLS ....

oeo
11-14-2008, 12:44 AM
Hard to see the future of course, but Sweeney doesn't figure to produce as a corner OF and Gio looks shell shocked. The rub will be DLS ....

Gio is still extremely young. He's the only guy I still miss. Probably doesn't help that he's hopped three different organizations in four years. I truly believe we sold high on DLS, and he will never make the show.

Sox4ever77
11-14-2008, 12:45 AM
The problem is, thats a terrible return for Gio-DLS-Sweeney. That package should have netted a thunderous middle of the order bat, or a number 1 sp (or close). Those guys, if still here, maybe brings in a Brian Roberts. I know Kenny comes out a head in the long run most times pulling the Quentin for Carter deals off, but it doesn't change he has these blowups in him every once in a while (and before I get 10 more pages of crap on this, I am not saying he is a bad GM, but this is one of the 2 biggest flaws of Kenny. Over Aggression to get his guy, sometimes at ANY COST).


Well that's what KW thought he was getting with Swisher. That didn't work out for whatever reason. If you think that package could have netted a Brian Roberts, why wasn't BR traded to the Sox last year? The Orioles need all the help they can get and it was clear with the trades of Bedard and Tejada, they were rebuilding and wanting prospects.

And please stop saying or acting as if those three set the world on fire. They are still prospects, none have become regular major leaguers and/or haven't proven they can produce year in and year out. Yeah I know it's only been one year and none are older than 26/27. But the samethings were said about Wells and Fogg and where are they now?

DaveFeelsRight
11-14-2008, 12:49 AM
whos gonna back up konerko now? thome? *shivers*

munchman33
11-14-2008, 12:49 AM
whos gonna back up konerko now? thome? *shivers*

Betemit.

JUribe1989
11-14-2008, 12:57 AM
To me, Swisher was nothing more than an overpaid Brian Daubach. And worse, he hit 11 points lower than Daubach!

He couldn't play any position particularly well, it was embarrassing how he just didn't appear to want to swing the bat. I've never seen a guy before who would so much rather have a walk than get a hit. I mean, there would be 0-2 counts and he wouldn't even think about moving the bat off his shoulders. He couldn't steal bases, he struck out 135 times, and for a guy who supposedly walked so much Scott Podsednik had a better OBP than him the year BEFORE we got him.

We were lucky to get ANYTHING in a trade for Swisher after the year he had. He doesn't bring anything to the table. Hell, we might as well have kept Willie Harris as an OF, he almost hit more home runs than Swisher (13) in far fewer at bats and stole 13 bases. Swisher for Betemit is great. Swisher for Frank Thomas' hip flexor would have been a great trade. How does anyone feel that getting rid of Swisher's contract is a bad thing?

Let's put this in perspective with other White Sox players I've hated for their uselessness:
Brian Daubach in 2003: .230, 6 HR, .352 OBP, 54 Ks
Joe Borchard in 2004: .173, 9 HR, .249 OBP, 57 Ks
Luis Terrero in 2007: .231, 5 HR, .348 OBP, 35 Ks
Nick Swisher in 2008: .219, 24 HR, .332 OBP, 135 Ks

Nick Swisher was so bad! I'm so happy he's gone even if I'm in the far minority which I can't believe.


LUIS TERRERO HAD A HIGHER OBP THAN NICK SWISHER!

Nellie_Fox
11-14-2008, 01:04 AM
To me, Swisher was nothing more than an overpaid Brian Daubach. And worse, he hit 11 points lower than Daubach!...This didn't need a thread of its own. Merged with the Swisher to Yankees thread.

Lundind1
11-14-2008, 01:05 AM
I think that some people, maybe not on this board, got really romantic with this idea of crazy ballplayer. I may caution you that most of those guys that you made the comparison to did not have anywhere near as many PA's as Swish did.

kidmccarthy
11-14-2008, 01:20 AM
To me, Swisher was nothing more than an overpaid Brian Daubach. And worse, he hit 11 points lower than Daubach!


That is the name to never be spoken! I cant believe you mentioned his name. O ****, i won't sleep for the next several nights.:whiner:

PhillipsBubba
11-14-2008, 01:21 AM
Good riddance to bad rubbish

johnnyg83
11-14-2008, 01:26 AM
He sucked. I thought he'd be good at the Cell... he needs to lose the passive crap.

Whitesox029
11-14-2008, 01:47 AM
I'm glad people are finally coming to their senses here and realizing this is a pretty good deal. Swisher wasn't going to come around in a Sox uniform...to me, he never seemed to fit in. I haven't read this whole thread, so this may have already been said, but Betemit has a career .966 fielding percentage. We now have a utility infielder who we know can hit above .265 and is better than average defensively. This alone is good enough for me. The fact that we got some promising pitching prospects to boot is gravy.

soulfly
11-14-2008, 03:27 AM
I'll miss the hilarious stuff he did with the other players in the dugout. He seems like a class guy, and that most of the time he was having fun.

I won't miss how he totally sucked.. I mentioned that in this thread that he was easily the worst hitter on the team: http://www.whitesoxinteractive.com/vbulletin/showthread.php?t=105417&page=2

Only now it seems like just about everyone is in agreement how bad he really was.

DrCrawdad
11-14-2008, 07:40 AM
I'm glad people are finally coming to their senses here and realizing this is a pretty good deal...I haven't read this whole thread, so this may have already been said, but Betemit has a career .966 fielding percentage. We now have a utility infielder who we know can hit above .265 and is better than average defensively. This alone is good enough for me. The fact that we got some promising pitching prospects to boot is gravy.

Thanks for that perspective on the trade!

kittle42
11-14-2008, 08:30 AM
And please stop saying or acting as if those three set the world on fire. They are still prospects, none have become regular major leaguers and/or haven't proven they can produce year in and year out. Yeah I know it's only been one year and none are older than 26/27. But the samethings were said about Wells and Fogg and where are they now?

See, but this is the part of it that doesn't really matter - one year later, it appears the two pitchers could be busts. However, AT THE TIME they traded for Swisher, those guys should have netted a MUCH bigger return than just Nick Swisher.

southside rocks
11-14-2008, 08:35 AM
FWIW, the guys on Baseball This Morning (on XM radio) are saying that now they are hearing mentions of how Swish didn't get along with Ozzie last season. I wondered about that, in the last month, seeing how Swish didn't play and what he had to say about it ...

So, the combination of Swish not having a position to play (since it appears that PK isn't going anywhere), plus Swish totally sucking performance-wise in what was an important year for the Sox, plus Ozzie not liking something -- or everything -- about Swish, has equaled a trip to the new Yankee Stadium for Swisher, and the acquisition of KW's favorite commodity, young arms, for the Sox -- plus a utility infielder who is probably a "just in case" something else that KW has in mind, doesn't work out.

I like Swisher but I won't miss him. Good luck to him.

Domeshot17
11-14-2008, 08:43 AM
Well that's what KW thought he was getting with Swisher. That didn't work out for whatever reason. If you think that package could have netted a Brian Roberts, why wasn't BR traded to the Sox last year? The Orioles need all the help they can get and it was clear with the trades of Bedard and Tejada, they were rebuilding and wanting prospects.

And please stop saying or acting as if those three set the world on fire. They are still prospects, none have become regular major leaguers and/or haven't proven they can produce year in and year out. Yeah I know it's only been one year and none are older than 26/27. But the samethings were said about Wells and Fogg and where are they now?

I wasn't Roberts last year. His price last year assanine. But I would bet that package this year nets Roberts.

And no one is saying any of these 3 are going to be superstars. What I am voicing (and i know others more extreme, but my case is) we Dealt our top prospect, our 2nd best prospect and a guy who fell towards the bottom of our top 10, for ultimately a utility IF, a guy who falls in the bottom of the top 10 now for us, and a middle reliever prospect. I am not saying he does it often, but Kenny bought high on Swish and sold low here.

doublem23
11-14-2008, 08:48 AM
And no one is saying any of these 3 are going to be superstars. What I am voicing (and i know others more extreme, but my case is) we Dealt our top prospect, our 2nd best prospect and a guy who fell towards the bottom of our top 10, for ultimately a utility IF, a guy who falls in the bottom of the top 10 now for us, and a middle reliever prospect.

True, but our prospects suck.

KenBerryGrab
11-14-2008, 08:48 AM
Swish had the lowest batting average among qualifiers for the batting title.

thedudeabides
11-14-2008, 09:27 AM
again, I don't think most people have a problem with this trade, per say. They don't have a problem saying Swisher had no position here, and Ozzie and Swish never saw eye to eye. Looking totally at this alone, it isn't a bad trade. Swish for a utility IF a future MR and a guy who falls somewhere between 4th sp-good MR.

The problem is, thats a terrible return for Gio-DLS-Sweeney. That package should have netted a thunderous middle of the order bat, or a number 1 sp (or close). Those guys, if still here, maybe brings in a Brian Roberts. I know Kenny comes out a head in the long run most times pulling the Quentin for Carter deals off, but it doesn't change he has these blowups in him every once in a while (and before I get 10 more pages of crap on this, I am not saying he is a bad GM, but this is one of the 2 biggest flaws of Kenny. Over Aggression to get his guy, sometimes at ANY COST).

I just have a problem with people repeating this over and over. That package couldn't net Roberts last year, and I don't see how it would possibly net him this year. DLS got hurt, Gio did nothing to improve his stock, and Sweeney barely would have seen the field with the Sox last year.

And just because we viewed these prospects highly, on this board, doesn't mean other organizations had the same feeling. If Kenny offered this package for Swisher it's safe to assume this package was available for many other players. Swisher was a big name player we got, that busted out. That's the worst part about it.

People have a tendancy to skew player value on this site. It's fun to speculate about, but we have no idea what other organizations value as far as players go. Kenny has a habit of specifically targeting players he thinks will work in this organization, not according to their BA ranking.

I just hate when people claim a general manager could have gotten a better deal. Then why wouldn't they? They are out for the best of the organization.

champagne030
11-14-2008, 09:40 AM
I just hate when people claim a general manager could have gotten a better deal. Then why wouldn't they? They are out for the best of the organization.

You answered your own question.

Kenny has a habit of specifically targeting players he thinks will work in this organization

Of course he's looking out for the best of the organization, but he makes mistakes like everyone.

Sox4ever77
11-14-2008, 09:44 AM
You answered your own question.



Of course he's looking out for the best of the organization, but he makes mistakes like everyone.


Of course, know it alls on a message board, never make mistakes. Or at least admit to it.

Britt Burns
11-14-2008, 09:51 AM
This is a classic case of addition by subtraction. Swish stunk last year, and his pouting ruled him out for 2009. All in all I think KW got about the most we could hope for from Swisher...

ode to veeck
11-14-2008, 09:56 AM
This is a classic case of addition by subtraction. Swish stunk last year, and his pouting ruled him out for 2009. All in all I think KW got about the most we could hope for from Swisher...

plus we didn't have a spot for him in the OF and he was no CF

Craig Grebeck
11-14-2008, 10:00 AM
Nobody outside this message board and hacks like Joe Cowley think the White Sox did well in this trade. Short sighted, reactionary, impatient, etc. Not enough bad adjectives to describe this trade. We did the Yankees a favor.

Thome25
11-14-2008, 10:04 AM
Nobody outside this message board and hacks like Joe Cowley think the White Sox did well in this trade. Short sighted, reactionary, impatient, etc. Not enough bad adjectives to describe this trade. We did the Yankees a favor.

Why don't you just root for another team already? Your sour, venomous, bad-natured posts are getting old real fast.

Craig Grebeck
11-14-2008, 10:07 AM
Why don't you just root for another team already? Your sour, venomous, bad-natured posts are getting old real fast.
I disagreed with the trade, get over it. I defend KW a hell of a lot more than a lot of people around here.

If my posts don't do it for you, read something else. I don't really care. Please, enlighten me as to how this trade makes any sense. The Yankees gave us absolutely nothing worthwhile.

soltrain21
11-14-2008, 10:17 AM
I disagreed with the trade, get over it. I defend KW a hell of a lot more than a lot of people around here.

If my posts don't do it for you, read something else. I don't really care. Please, enlighten me as to how this trade makes any sense. The Yankees gave us absolutely nothing worthwhile.

And we gave them Nick Swisher, who is terrible.

Thome25
11-14-2008, 10:18 AM
I disagreed with the trade, get over it. I defend KW a hell of a lot more than a lot of people around here.

If my posts don't do it for you, read something else. I don't really care. Please, enlighten me as to how this trade makes any sense. The Yankees gave us absolutely nothing worthwhile.

Well for one, we gave up nothing worthwhile in the first place. Gio is looking bad. DLS is looking bad and Sweeney is looking just like his usual mediocre self.

We gave up 3 projects and we got 3 projects back in return. It's a wash and IMHO it always will be.

Swisher had no place to play. He obviously wasn't going to play CF for us anymore. 1B and DH are clogged up at the moment with Thome and Konerko. Fields is probably our DH or 1B in 2010.

What was KW supposed to do with him? Overpay him as a bench/platoon guy? KW did a good job of getting rid of a guy who was a bad fit on the field and in the clubhouse instead of keeping him when he could hopefully use the money elsewhere.

What in your idea would've been worthwhile? AROD?

Craig Grebeck
11-14-2008, 10:27 AM
Well for one, we gave up nothing worthwhile in the first place. Gios is looking bad. DLS is looking bad and Sweeney is looking just like his usual mediocre self.

We gave up 3 projects and we got 3 projects back in return. It's a wash and IMHO it always will be.

Swisher had no place to play. He obviously wasn't going to play CF for us anymore. 1B and DH are clogged up at the moment with Thome and Konerko. Fields is probably our DH or 1B in 2010.

What was KW supposed to do with him? Overpay him as a bench/platoon guy? KW did a good job of getting rid of a guy who was a bad fit on the field and in the clubhouse instead of keeping him when he could hopefully use the money elsewhere.
1. Yes, we gave up something worthwhile. We bought high on Swisher and gave up three of our top four prospects. Now, I'm not saying that we gave up something that was inherently valuable to the White Sox 25 man roster in 2008, I'm saying we gave up pieces that were valuable on the open market. We gave up those three players because we believed Swisher would have a spot on this team for the next three to four seasons, at least. He had one bad season and we pulled the ripchord -- an absolutely ridiculous thing to do. Also, DLS missed most of the season after surgery. It's way too early to decide if Gio/DLS will turn out to be anything. Sweeney, on the other hand, will probably be a fourth outfielder. But, if Sweeney ends up being what people fear, that is, a consistent .300 hitter with 15-20 HR while playing a good RF, it won't look good.

2. It is not as simple as "three projects for three projects." That's completely false and a terrible way to evaluate trades. Using Kevin Goldstein's rankings, we gave up two prospects in the top sixty and Ryan Sweeney, a guy whose value was in the toilet. Gio is a talented kid, and his stuff is considerably better than Marquez -- no scout would tell you different. DLS had a special arm but had way too much time before his ETA -- making injury somewhat likely (as happened this season). Sweeney was a guy who had value to us, even if it was just as a fourth OF/platoon player. Now, who did we get in return? Marquez, a former supplemental pick who is declining as he progresses in the minors. Nunez, a guy who has been traded numerous times and apparently, in some people's eyes, balanced out with Texeira. And Betemit, a former super prospect who has been downright terrible for years now. Don't tell me those three are equal. You're lying.

3. Fields will not be our 1B/DH in 2010. That's a joke.

4. KW could have at least waited for Teixeira to sign somewhere, so Swisher's value on the open market would go up. I don't think he had to trade him.

It was a reactive deal where we got nothing in return. We even helped the Yankees, as they've now got considerably more leverage in dealing with Teixeira. Nothing like selling low AND helping out a fellow AL team.

Sox4ever77
11-14-2008, 10:35 AM
1. Yes, we gave up something worthwhile. We bought high on Swisher and gave up three of our top four prospects. Now, I'm not saying that we gave up something that was inherently valuable to the White Sox 25 man roster in 2008, I'm saying we gave up pieces that were valuable on the open market. We gave up those three players because we believed Swisher would have a spot on this team for the next three to four seasons, at least. He had one bad season and we pulled the ripchord -- an absolutely ridiculous thing to do. Also, DLS missed most of the season after surgery. It's way too early to decide if Gio/DLS will turn out to be anything. Sweeney, on the other hand, will probably be a fourth outfielder. But, if Sweeney ends up being what people fear, that is, a consistent .300 hitter with 15-20 HR while playing a good RF, it won't look good.

2. It is not as simple as "three projects for three projects." That's completely false and a terrible way to evaluate trades. Using Kevin Goldstein's rankings, we gave up two prospects in the top sixty and Ryan Sweeney, a guy whose value was in the toilet. Gio is a talented kid, and his stuff is considerably better than Marquez -- no scout would tell you different. DLS had a special arm but had way too much time before his ETA -- making injury somewhat likely (as happened this season). Sweeney was a guy who had value to us, even if it was just as a fourth OF/platoon player. Now, who did we get in return? Marquez, a former supplemental pick who is declining as he progresses in the minors. Nunez, a guy who has been traded numerous times and apparently, in some people's eyes, balanced out with Texeira. And Betemit, a former super prospect who has been downright terrible for years now. Don't tell me those three are equal. You're lying.

3. Fields will not be our 1B/DH in 2010. That's a joke.

4. KW could have at least waited for Teixeira to sign somewhere, so Swisher's value on the open market would go up. I don't think he had to trade him.

It was a reactive deal where we got nothing in return. We even helped the Yankees, as they've now got considerably more leverage in dealing with Teixeira. Nothing like selling low AND helping out a fellow AL team.

You keep talking about an open market. Who would those three bring to the Sox? NOBODY. Not Roberts, not last year, not this year. Those three got Swish who was suppose to be a good player but he sucked in 08.

I would rather the Yankees have Swish than Tex, who is a much better player.

Craig Grebeck
11-14-2008, 10:38 AM
You keep talking about an open market. Who would those three bring to the Sox? NOBODY. Not Roberts, not last year, not this year. Those three got Swish who was suppose to be a good player but he sucked in 08.

I would rather the Yankees have Swish than Tex, who is a much better player.
You completely missed the point. Those three brought Swisher, a guy with a good contract who many expected to thrive in our ballpark. Clearly they brought us something.

You missed the point again. They've got more leverage with Teixeira, if anything, this may improve their chances with him. Swisher can move around the outfield and play first base for them.

DrCrawdad
11-14-2008, 10:38 AM
1. Yes, we gave up something worthwhile. We bought high on Swisher and gave up three of our top four prospects. Now, I'm not saying that we gave up something that was inherently valuable to the White Sox 25 man roster in 2008, I'm saying we gave up pieces that were valuable on the open market. We gave up those three players because we believed Swisher would have a spot on this team for the next three to four seasons, at least. He had one bad season and we pulled the ripchord -- an absolutely ridiculous thing to do. Also, DLS missed most of the season after surgery. It's way too early to decide if Gio/DLS will turn out to be anything. Sweeney, on the other hand, will probably be a fourth outfielder. But, if Sweeney ends up being what people fear, that is, a consistent .300 hitter with 15-20 HR while playing a good RF, it won't look good.

2. It is not as simple as "three projects for three projects." That's completely false and a terrible way to evaluate trades. Using Kevin Goldstein's rankings, we gave up two prospects in the top sixty and Ryan Sweeney, a guy whose value was in the toilet. Gio is a talented kid, and his stuff is considerably better than Marquez -- no scout would tell you different. DLS had a special arm but had way too much time before his ETA -- making injury somewhat likely (as happened this season). Sweeney was a guy who had value to us, even if it was just as a fourth OF/platoon player. Now, who did we get in return? Marquez, a former supplemental pick who is declining as he progresses in the minors. Nunez, a guy who has been traded numerous times and apparently, in some people's eyes, balanced out with Texeira. And Betemit, a former super prospect who has been downright terrible for years now. Don't tell me those three are equal. You're lying.

3. Fields will not be our 1B/DH in 2010. That's a joke.

4. KW could have at least waited for Teixeira to sign somewhere, so Swisher's value on the open market would go up. I don't think he had to trade him.

It was a reactive deal where we got nothing in return. We even helped the Yankees, as they've now got considerably more leverage in dealing with Teixeira. Nothing like selling low AND helping out a fellow AL team.

Patience is not a virtue to Kenny Williams.

Swisher, once the Sox finally determined is not CF, is a man without a position on the Sox. Unless the Sox trade Dye, Konerko or Thome they don't have a spot for him.

Now it's clear to me that the Swisher-era was OVAH once the Sox traded for Ken Griffey Jr. There was no reason for that trade, if Swisher was deemed worthy.

Craig Grebeck
11-14-2008, 10:39 AM
Patience is not a virtue to Kenny Williams.

Swisher, once the Sox finally determined is not CF, is a man without a position on the Sox. Unless the Sox trade Dye, Konerko or Thome they don't have a spot for him.

Now it's clear to me that the Swisher-era was OVAH once the Sox traded for Ken Griffey Jr. There was no reason for that trade, if Swisher was deemed worthy.
Again, I don't see why he couldn't move around the outfield. It's not like Thome/Dye/Konerko don't need a good bit of rest. It was an asinine move.

dooda
11-14-2008, 10:50 AM
Maybe the real reason for the Swisher trade is more under the surface. If Swisher and Ozzie were not a good fit for each other, then unloading the problem and salary for two minor league pitchers and a major league utility man makes real sense. Chemistry is way underrated. Chemistry plus talent are the Tampa Bay Rays.

We may have solved two problems. Helping the chemistry and filling the slot that may be there if Uribe signs elsewhere as expected.

2906
11-14-2008, 10:53 AM
I can't say I'm thrilled with this trade, mainly because if you're targeting a young pitcher I'd rather it be a guy who didn't miss time with a shoulder strain and isn't known as having a clean, repeatable delivery.

That said, there are some other factors at play.

Rosenthal's comments resonate. He cautions not to look at this trade in a vacuum and I tend to believe him. Some money was cleared, not a ton, but some. That gives Williams more options. And I highly doubt this is KW's only move of the offseason.

As for Swisher, I'm not certain that waiting for a market to develop would be the best idea. The Texiera signing will likely drag out (Boras) and in the meantime other dominoes fall. Teams move on alternate plans and you end up sitting with a guy in mid January you wanted to move.

This was really a scouting deal. Williams went out of his way to say his two top guys, Young and Pellant, watched Marquez a lot. We'll see if they're right. As for Betemit, the optimist in me says he hit much better later in the year after the eyes fix.

Bottom line ... I expect more deals like this. Taking a chance on guys on the cusp or guys who haven't broken through. Whether it works out or not 2009 will tell.

Heffalump
11-14-2008, 10:55 AM
blah, blah, blah. A lot of incessant arguing going on here. I love it! (seriously, the hot stove league has begun!)

Anyhow, can anyone give me a details on Betemit's defensive abilities? I know he can play all four IF positions, but how well? Juan Uribe well? (pretty darn good) or Alex Cintron well? (medicore)

Thanks !

DSpivack
11-14-2008, 10:56 AM
1. Yes, we gave up something worthwhile. We bought high on Swisher and gave up three of our top four prospects. Now, I'm not saying that we gave up something that was inherently valuable to the White Sox 25 man roster in 2008, I'm saying we gave up pieces that were valuable on the open market. We gave up those three players because we believed Swisher would have a spot on this team for the next three to four seasons, at least. He had one bad season and we pulled the ripchord -- an absolutely ridiculous thing to do. Also, DLS missed most of the season after surgery. It's way too early to decide if Gio/DLS will turn out to be anything. Sweeney, on the other hand, will probably be a fourth outfielder. But, if Sweeney ends up being what people fear, that is, a consistent .300 hitter with 15-20 HR while playing a good RF, it won't look good.

What in the heck makes you think he'll do anything approaching that?

At a corner OF spot last season, he hit .286/ .350/ .383. That sucks.

2906
11-14-2008, 10:57 AM
Again, I don't see why he couldn't move around the outfield. It's not like Thome/Dye/Konerko don't need a good bit of rest.

I agree with this. It seems though they want someone faster/cheaper and maybe a different style of hitter to do that. Hopefully it's not DeWayne Wise as they should be able to find someone better.

Further I think we will still see one of Thome, Dye, Konerko traded.

Sox4ever77
11-14-2008, 11:15 AM
This is what BA has to say about the trade:


http://www.baseballamerica.com/today/majors/trade-central/2008/267179.html

Craig Grebeck
11-14-2008, 11:17 AM
What in the heck makes you think he'll do anything approaching that?

At a corner OF spot last season, he hit .286/ .350/ .383. That sucks.
Apparently you missed the sentence preceding this one.

DSpivack
11-14-2008, 11:22 AM
Apparently you missed the sentence preceding this one.

I saw that, I'm just saying that the people who 'fear that' have no real basis in reality, anyway.

tstrike2000
11-14-2008, 11:22 AM
First off, I know Ken Rosenthal is someone I don't agree with sometimes, but I like his article on today's Fox Sports. It mentions KW being up to something bigger, which is obvious. I was a little surprised how it said Swisher possibly being selfish at times he wasn't hitting, although it's hard for anyone to be happy in times of struggle. Overall, I don't mind this deal because we have to and will upgrade at a few of those key positions and this precedes that. I think it's a good start to the offseason moves to come.

soxlug
11-14-2008, 12:04 PM
The hardest part of this trade was explaining it to my 7 year old who absolutely loves Swisher. Of course my son doesn't pay attention to all of the numbers and how they equate to success or failure. What he does remember is a guy who was always smiling, and really showed a true love for the game. Outside of the numbers I think Swisher was a great player for my son to look up to at least attitude wise. His reaction sort of reminded me of myself when my father told me Ron Kittle was traded if I remember correctly and I think it was even on a night he hit an upperdeck shot at the old Comiskey. I might be dreaming that up but that was tough to understand.
So he asked why of course and I told because we got back some pitching and pretty good backup infielder. He asked if he could still like him even though he did not play for the White Sox I said sure you can. I was thinking though he is a Yankee now so that will never work out.

All in all I like the trade. Yes we gave up a lot for Swisher originally thinking his numbers would get back to what they once were while hitting at the Cell. It did not work and KW atleast swallowed his pride pretty quickly and moved him. Some GM's may sit on things a bit longer just to see if they can't validate thier earlier move. We cleared a little cash maybe we can use towards Hudson. We got some decent prospects KW thinks Cooper can help both. Betemit is a really good replacement for Uribe considering he hits for a higher avg. plays all around the infield and is just entering his prime years. For whatever reason it did look like he started hitting a lot better towards the end of the season last year, so maybe he is starting to come around in that aspect of his game.

btrain929
11-14-2008, 12:23 PM
FWIW, Jonathan Mayo (prospect guru) has an article up, breaking down the Teixeira we sent them, Marquez, and Nunez in detail.

http://mlb.mlb.com/news/article.jsp?ymd=20081113&content_id=3679236&vkey=hotstove2008&fext=.jsp&partnerId=rss_mlb

JB98
11-14-2008, 12:26 PM
again, I don't think most people have a problem with this trade, per say. They don't have a problem saying Swisher had no position here, and Ozzie and Swish never saw eye to eye. Looking totally at this alone, it isn't a bad trade. Swish for a utility IF a future MR and a guy who falls somewhere between 4th sp-good MR.

The problem is, thats a terrible return for Gio-DLS-Sweeney. That package should have netted a thunderous middle of the order bat, or a number 1 sp (or close). Those guys, if still here, maybe brings in a Brian Roberts. I know Kenny comes out a head in the long run most times pulling the Quentin for Carter deals off, but it doesn't change he has these blowups in him every once in a while (and before I get 10 more pages of crap on this, I am not saying he is a bad GM, but this is one of the 2 biggest flaws of Kenny. Over Aggression to get his guy, sometimes at ANY COST).

Here's the thing: that trade with Oakland was a mistake. Why make it worse by being stubborn and holding on to Swisher when he was obviously a poor fit here? Cut your losses, get what you can and move in a different direction.

I'm still indifferent about the trade. I don't think we got much, but I don't feel like Swisher is a big loss. We'll see what KW does next. This is probably a precursor to something else.

pmck003
11-14-2008, 12:28 PM
"Remember in Dec. 2004 when Williams traded Carlos Lee to the Brewers for Scott Podsednik, Luis Vizcaino and a minor leaguer?"

Swisher wasn't nearly as good as Carlos Lee

TDog
11-14-2008, 12:51 PM
1. Yes, we gave up something worthwhile. We bought high on Swisher and gave up three of our top four prospects. Now, I'm not saying that we gave up something that was inherently valuable to the White Sox 25 man roster in 2008, I'm saying we gave up pieces that were valuable on the open market. We gave up those three players because we believed Swisher would have a spot on this team for the next three to four seasons, at least. He had one bad season and we pulled the ripchord -- an absolutely ridiculous thing to do. ...

It was a reactive deal where we got nothing in return. We even helped the Yankees, as they've now got considerably more leverage in dealing with Teixeira. Nothing like selling low AND helping out a fellow AL team.

Kenny Williams made a mistake in trading for Swisher before the 2008 season. Most people agree with that. When the deal was made, I thought it was a mistake acquiring Swisher. More people thought it was a mistake giving up the three prospects. In A's country, some people were happy to see Swisher go because he wasn't much of a hitter, but he had a lot of fans who loved him and wore his jersey to the ballpark. They believed it was a reactive deal in which the A's got nothing in return.

Acquiring Swisher was a bad deal for the White Sox, but the deal was irrelevant to this off-season. Swisher had a horrible 2008 season. There were a few special highlights, but he wasn't the player the White Sox and White Sox fans believed they were getting. His contract rewards him with a raise that the White Sox aren't going to pay.

I never understood the Swisher love that had people rushing out to buy jerseys bearing his name and number before he ever played a game for the Sox. I didn't understand the Sox promoting him as a star before he ever played a game for the Sox. After Swisher failed to live up to even my low expectations in 2008, I don't understand why people are upset that he won't be around next year.

If the Swisher trade had come with a warranty, the Sox could send him back to the A's and get back the prosects, although they are now more suspect. What we gave up for him last off-season is irrelevant this off-season. After the Sox traded Luis Aparicio to get Mike Andrews with Luis Alvarado thrown in, they didn't demand equal return on their failed investment. (Andrews had been an All-Star and was much younger than Aparicio who was approaching retirement and Alvarado was a top Red Sox prospect. As it turned out, the Red Sox released Aparicio the season after the White Sox released Andrews and only about two weeks before the White Sox traded Alvarado for Ken Tatum.) Had Roland Hemond kept Aparicio, the Sox might have overtaken the A's in 1972. As it was, the Sox just cut their substantial losses.

This off-season, the Sox can only work in the present. Management has spent a season looking at Swisher up close, and it apparently isn't what was expected. I'm guessing they see his value diminishing as his cost increases. The A's made a mistake with his contract and dumped him for what many fans saw as nothing. But Swisher's value is continuing to depreciate.

Keeping him around to pay him more until his value depreciates to nothing would be a bigger mistake. Maybe the Yankees got lucky and Swisher will look at this trade as a wake-up call. Maybe next season is the year Swisher becomes more aggressive at the plate.

A lot of people were upset when the Sox traded Carlos Lee for Scott Podsednik. I hoped for the best and the next season was as good as it gets. Today, I'm just happy to know that Nick Swisher won't ever play for the White Sox again. I hope the Sox didn't give the Yankees a warranty, anyway.

1989
11-14-2008, 01:05 PM
Swish had the lowest batting average among qualifiers for the batting title.

BUT..BUT he walks a ton! that completely makes up for it!!

Gammons Peter
11-14-2008, 01:06 PM
WSCR D-Bag Murph just said that Nunez will be a Rule 5 guy so he has to make the major league roster this year or we lose him? I just turned on the radio and just caught the tail end of the conversation. Anyone have any info on this?

voodoochile
11-14-2008, 01:12 PM
WSCR D-Bag Murph just said that Nunez will be a Rule 5 guy so he has to make the major league roster this year or we lose him? I just turned on the radio and just caught the tail end of the conversation. Anyone have any info on this?
That only applies to people you draft via rule 5. If he's eligible for rule 5 draft then another team might take him from us but then they have to put him on the roster.

sox1970
11-14-2008, 01:24 PM
WSCR D-Bag Murph just said that Nunez will be a Rule 5 guy so he has to make the major league roster this year or we lose him? I just turned on the radio and just caught the tail end of the conversation. Anyone have any info on this?

The Sox will add players to the 40-man in the next week. Nunez may be one of them. The 40-man is currently at 33, so there is room to add.

champagne030
11-14-2008, 01:33 PM
WSCR D-Bag Murph just said that Nunez will be a Rule 5 guy so he has to make the major league roster this year or we lose him? I just turned on the radio and just caught the tail end of the conversation. Anyone have any info on this?

I don't think he's eligible. He was signed in 2006 and you're exempt for 3 years after you're signed (if 19 or older; 4 years if 18 or younger).

And if he's eligible to be drafted he will be added to the 40 and no longer will be draftable......see below.

The Sox will add players to the 40-man in the next week. Nunez may be one of them. The 40-man is currently at 33, so there is room to add.

Sox4ever77
11-14-2008, 01:47 PM
I don't think he's eligible. He was signed in 2006 and you're exempt for 3 years after you're signed (if 19 or older; 4 years if 18 or younger).

And if he's eligible to be drafted he will be added to the 40 and no longer will be draftable......see below.


Nunez signed with the Dodgers back in 03 as a 16 year old.

Craig Grebeck
11-14-2008, 01:58 PM
Kenny Williams made a mistake in trading for Swisher before the 2008 season. Most people agree with that. When the deal was made, I thought it was a mistake acquiring Swisher. More people thought it was a mistake giving up the three prospects. In A's country, some people were happy to see Swisher go because he wasn't much of a hitter, but he had a lot of fans who loved him and wore his jersey to the ballpark. They believed it was a reactive deal in which the A's got nothing in return.

Acquiring Swisher was a bad deal for the White Sox, but the deal was irrelevant to this off-season. Swisher had a horrible 2008 season. There were a few special highlights, but he wasn't the player the White Sox and White Sox fans believed they were getting. His contract rewards him with a raise that the White Sox aren't going to pay.

I never understood the Swisher love that had people rushing out to buy jerseys bearing his name and number before he ever played a game for the Sox. I didn't understand the Sox promoting him as a star before he ever played a game for the Sox. After Swisher failed to live up to even my low expectations in 2008, I don't understand why people are upset that he won't be around next year.

If the Swisher trade had come with a warranty, the Sox could send him back to the A's and get back the prosects, although they are now more suspect. What we gave up for him last off-season is irrelevant this off-season. After the Sox traded Luis Aparicio to get Mike Andrews with Luis Alvarado thrown in, they didn't demand equal return on their failed investment. (Andrews had been an All-Star and was much younger than Aparicio who was approaching retirement and Alvarado was a top Red Sox prospect. As it turned out, the Red Sox released Aparicio the season after the White Sox released Andrews and only about two weeks before the White Sox traded Alvarado for Ken Tatum.) Had Roland Hemond kept Aparicio, the Sox might have overtaken the A's in 1972. As it was, the Sox just cut their substantial losses.

This off-season, the Sox can only work in the present. Management has spent a season looking at Swisher up close, and it apparently isn't what was expected. I'm guessing they see his value diminishing as his cost increases. The A's made a mistake with his contract and dumped him for what many fans saw as nothing. But Swisher's value is continuing to depreciate.

Keeping him around to pay him more until his value depreciates to nothing would be a bigger mistake. Maybe the Yankees got lucky and Swisher will look at this trade as a wake-up call. Maybe next season is the year Swisher becomes more aggressive at the plate.

A lot of people were upset when the Sox traded Carlos Lee for Scott Podsednik. I hoped for the best and the next season was as good as it gets. Today, I'm just happy to know that Nick Swisher won't ever play for the White Sox again. I hope the Sox didn't give the Yankees a warranty, anyway.
I was replying to the moronic idea that somehow the three prospects we gave up are equal to the three we acquired from the Yankees.

wilburaga
11-14-2008, 01:58 PM
The NY Times noted that while Nunez must be added to the Sox' 40 man in order to be protected from the rule 5 draft the same is not the case for Texeira and the Yankees.

W

TDog
11-14-2008, 02:17 PM
I was replying to the moronic idea that somehow the three prospects we gave up are equal to the three we acquired from the Yankees.

I doubt the difference will be as extreme as you believe. And even if it is a moronic idea to equate the three prospects the Sox gave up for Swisher to the two prospects and one utility infielder the Yankees gave up for Swisher, what the Sox gave up for Swisher is irrelevant this off-season.

Swisher was a bad investment. If the Sox believed they could recoup his value by paying him a higher salary and waiting for him to be a better baseball player, they wouldn't have been so anxious to trade him.

I posted mid-season that I would have liked to have seen Swisher traded before the end of July. The Sox probably could have recouped their losses in a less moronic way.

In 20 years, we can look back and compare the careers of all the players involved. Really, it's too bad the Sox didn't sign Hunter or Rowand. The Sox wouldn't have been desperate for a centerfielder and the A's would have dumped Swisher on some other team.

Craig Grebeck
11-14-2008, 02:22 PM
I doubt the difference will be as extreme as you believe. And even if it is a moronic idea to equate the three prospects the Sox gave up for Swisher to the two prospects and one utility infielder the Yankees gave up for Swisher, what the Sox gave up for Swisher is irrelevant this off-season.

Swisher was a bad investment. If the Sox believed they could recoup his value by paying him a higher salary and waiting for him to be a better baseball player, they wouldn't have been so anxious to trade him.

I posted mid-season that I would have liked to have seen Swisher traded before the end of July. The Sox probably could have recouped their losses in a less moronic way.

In 20 years, we can look back and compare the careers of all the players involved. Really, it's too bad the Sox didn't sign Hunter or Rowand. The Sox wouldn't have been desperate for a centerfielder and the A's would have dumped Swisher on some other team.
I prefer to be involved in trades where the other side doesn't think they absolutely screwed us. Seriously. Yankee fans and the media think, or know, that Cashman absolutely bent KW over in this deal.

champagne030
11-14-2008, 02:33 PM
Nunez signed with the Dodgers back in 03 as a 16 year old.

I thought he signed in 2006, but that was his North American debut. You're correct, he was signed in 2003 so we'll need to add him to the 40 man roster.

TDog
11-14-2008, 02:47 PM
I prefer to be involved in trades where the other side doesn't think they absolutely screwed us. Seriously. Yankee fans and the media think, or know, that Cashman absolutely bent KW over in this deal.

They haven't seen Nick Swisher play for the Yankees. If he doesn't pull his head out of his butt and change his approach to hitting, the Yankees will be looking to unload him just as the A's and White Sox did.

This off-season, the White Sox apparently saw a priority in getting rid of Nick Swisher. Getting rid of him would be priority No. 1. Not paying his salary would be priority No. 2. Getting players in return for him that could help the Sox in the future would be priority No. 3.

If Nick Swisher plays as poorly in Yankee pinstripes as he did in White Sox pinstripes, it will be the Yankees who got screwed in the deal.

Craig Grebeck
11-14-2008, 02:51 PM
They haven't seen Nick Swisher play for the Yankees. If he doesn't pull his head out of his butt and change his approach to hitting, the Yankees will be looking to unload him just as the A's and White Sox did.

This off-season, the White Sox apparently saw a priority in getting rid of Nick Swisher. Getting rid of him would be priority No. 1. Not paying his salary would be priority No. 2. Getting players in return for him that could help the Sox in the future would be priority No. 3.

If Nick Swisher plays as poorly in Yankee pinstripes as he did in White Sox pinstripes, it will be the Yankees who got screwed in the deal.
I bet you he doesn't. He was flat out unlucky this season -- for at least half of it.

dickallen15
11-14-2008, 02:52 PM
I prefer to be involved in trades where the other side doesn't think they absolutely screwed us. Seriously. Yankee fans and the media think, or know, that Cashman absolutely bent KW over in this deal.

Just wait until they see dirty 30 try to make contact. Opinions change.

Sox4ever77
11-14-2008, 03:26 PM
I prefer to be involved in trades where the other side doesn't think they absolutely screwed us. Seriously. Yankee fans and the media think, or know, that Cashman absolutely bent KW over in this deal.

Why the **** do you care what other teams and fans think, a day after an off season trade is made. For all your stats, you don't know that you can't judge an off season trade, the day after it's made?

So your constant whiny means, if you're correct and those three guys on the A's develop into good major league players and the guys from the Yankees are bust, you're going to say I told you so.

But if the three guys from the Yankees turn into good major league players and the three guys on the A's turn into bust, you won't post!!!

I love it.

TDog
11-14-2008, 03:27 PM
I bet you he doesn't. He was flat out unlucky this season -- for at least half of it.

Who was more unlucky -- Nick Swisher or the White Sox fans who he let down?

You would have bet on Nick Swisher going into 2008 while I was just angry the White Sox traded for him. Poets would refer to your position as hope against hope.

But aside from a few highlights, 2008 was so bad that the upcoming season could be still be bad even if he shows improvement. This season would have been bad even if he had gotten some luck.

Nick Swisher will be playing in his third AL division in three years. I don't know if he'll play enough to get more national television exposure. He had three singles and three walks in 23 appearances against Red Sox pitching in 2008 so there is plenty of room for improvement.

kittle42
11-14-2008, 03:35 PM
Did everyone get a BAPIP infusion or something? I have *never* heard all this talk of sucky players being "unlucky" in the past. It leads me to believe it's bull****, and I am certainly not a hater of stats.

Craig Grebeck
11-14-2008, 03:37 PM
Why the **** do you care what other teams and fans think, a day after an off season trade is made. For all your stats, you don't know that you can't judge an off season trade, the day after it's made?

So your constant whiny means, if you're correct and those three guys on the A's develop into good major league players and the guys from the Yankees are bust, you're going to say I told you so.

But if the three guys from the Yankees turn into good major league players and the three guys on the A's turn into bust, you won't post!!!

I love it.
I'll still be here -- regardless of what you think. All I'm saying is that it's fairly telling that most baseball people, outside of WSI and Joe Cowley, believe we got absolutely hosed. The only person who has been reluctant to call this an absolute screwjob of a trade is Christina Kahrl from BP.

Paulwny
11-14-2008, 03:39 PM
Did everyone get a BAPIP infusion or something? I have *never* heard all this talk of sucky players being "unlucky" in the past. It leads me to believe it's bull****, and I am certainly not a hater of stats.

BAPIP has become the excuse for poor hitters and their agents.

sox1970
11-14-2008, 03:41 PM
Did everyone get a BAPIP infusion or something? I have *never* heard all this talk of sucky players being "unlucky" in the past. It leads me to believe it's bull****, and I am certainly not a hater of stats.

No kidding. Truthfully, I never heard of BAPIP until yesterday. Sounds like a stat made up by agents to cover for their underachieving clients. Not that it can't be a useful, but on the surface it seems like a bull**** stat.

Craig Grebeck
11-14-2008, 03:41 PM
BAPIP has become the excuse for poor hitters and their agents.
Not really, just another way of looking at a player's nosedive. Sometimes, there is more to it than a player simply losing the ability. Swisher's return to career numbers is a pretty safe bet.

Sox4ever77
11-14-2008, 03:42 PM
Did everyone get a BAPIP infusion or something? I have *never* heard all this talk of sucky players being "unlucky" in the past. It leads me to believe it's bull****, and I am certainly not a hater of stats.


I would think somebody who doesn't strike out or walk much and makes a lot of contact should be considered unlucky.

Just imagine if Ichiro got lucky enough to hit 400. He strikes out about 60 times a year but doesn't walk much and makes contact. If some of those outs find a hole or drops in.

Such BS stats.

Craig Grebeck
11-14-2008, 03:42 PM
No kidding. Truthfully, I never heard of BAPIP until yesterday. Sounds like a stat made up by agents to cover for their underachieving clients. Not that it can't be a useful, but on the surface it seems like a bull**** stat.
BABIP is used in conjunction with batted ball rates to analyze whether or not a player was abnormally unlucky for a period of time. It does not measure skill -- most agents don't give a damn about it, I'd imagine.

Craig Grebeck
11-14-2008, 03:43 PM
I would think somebody who doesn't strike out or walk much and makes a lot of contact should be considered unlucky.

Just imagine if Ichiro got lucky enough to hit 400. He strikes out about 60 times a year but doesn't walk much and makes contact. If some of those outs find a hole or drops in.

Such BS stats.
Swisher actually makes contact at a good rate. Try again.

Sox4ever77
11-14-2008, 03:51 PM
Swisher actually makes contact at a good rate. Try again.

No he doesn't. His 219 average should tell you that. His 130 or so K's in about 500 plate appearance should tell you that. Did you miss those stats?

BadBobbyJenks
11-14-2008, 03:54 PM
I'm glad people are finally coming to their senses here and realizing this is a pretty good deal. Swisher wasn't going to come around in a Sox uniform...to me, he never seemed to fit in. I haven't read this whole thread, so this may have already been said, but Betemit has a career .966 fielding percentage. We now have a utility infielder who we know can hit above .265 and is better than average defensively. This alone is good enough for me. The fact that we got some promising pitching prospects to boot is gravy.


Promising prospects seems like a stretch. It is not really a good deal, but its not terrible either.

Paulwny
11-14-2008, 03:59 PM
Not really, just another way of looking at a player's nosedive. Sometimes, there is more to it than a player simply losing the ability. Swisher's return to career numbers is a pretty safe bet.

I would think somebody who doesn't strike out or walk much and makes a lot of contact should be considered unlucky.

Just imagine if Ichiro got lucky enough to hit 400. He strikes out about 60 times a year but doesn't walk much and makes contact. If some of those outs find a hole or drops in.

Such BS stats.

BABIP is used in conjunction with batted ball rates to analyze whether or not a player was abnormally unlucky for a period of time. It does not measure skill -- most agents don't give a damn about it, I'd imagine.


The name of the game is "hit'em where they ain't". I don't care how many he hit "at'em", I care about how many he hit between them or over them.
Defenses adjust to a batters' hitting norms. Swisher's hitting norms may have caught up with him.

Craig Grebeck
11-14-2008, 04:01 PM
No he doesn't. His 219 average should tell you that. His 130 or so K's in about 500 plate appearance should tell you that. Did you miss those stats?
Well, he made contact on 79% of the pitches he swung at -- not a bad rate at all. What matters is that he didn't swing enough. Simply looking at how many times he K'd is not enough.

Lip Man 1
11-14-2008, 04:12 PM
The newspaper story today where it was reported that Swisher refused to listen to coaches when offering advice was very revealing.

It was in the Sun-Times I think.

Lip

champagne030
11-14-2008, 04:17 PM
The newspaper story today where it was reported that Swisher refused to listen to coaches when offering advice was very revealing.

It was in the Sun-Times I think.

Lip

Would you listen to Walker? I think it's pretty revealing that a new guy, without a history of not accepting coaching, tunes out the hitting coach after a couple of months.

thedudeabides
11-14-2008, 04:21 PM
Well, he made contact on 79% of the pitches he swung at -- not a bad rate at all. What matters is that he didn't swing enough. Simply looking at how many times he K'd is not enough.

And other scouts, such as White Sox whipping boy Keith Law, have talked about a serious reduction in bat speed and are not looking at this as a typical BAPIP(or unlucky) streak. They are confused because these types of diminishing skills usually only happen in aging players. Also, his BAPIP does not explain his miserable second half. Not to mention his terribly rising K rate. His contact rate is also skewed because he took a ridiculous amount of called strikes.

The bottom line is his bat was slow and his approach was terrible last year. If the Sox didn't think he could rebound, or had to have a change of scenery to do it, they had to cut their losses. Regardless of what they gave up to get him. And salary is always an issue with the Sox.

And I don't give a **** what Yankee fans or beat writers think about the trade. If he picks up where he left off, he will be run out of town on a rail.

Konerko05
11-14-2008, 04:25 PM
And other scouts, such as White Sox whipping boy Keith Law, have talked about a serious reduction in bat speed and are not looking at this as a typical BAPIP(or unlucky) streak. They are confused because these types of diminishing skills usually only happen in aging players.

Interesting. That's all I'm going to say.

Craig Grebeck
11-14-2008, 04:36 PM
And other scouts, such as White Sox whipping boy Keith Law, have talked about a serious reduction in bat speed and are not looking at this as a typical BAPIP(or unlucky) streak. They are confused because these types of diminishing skills usually only happen in aging players. Also, his BAPIP does not explain his miserable second half. Not to mention his terribly rising K rate. His contact rate is also skewed because he took a ridiculous amount of called strikes.

The bottom line is his bat was slow and his approach was terrible last year. If the Sox didn't think he could rebound, or had to have a change of scenery to do it, they had to cut their losses. Regardless of what they gave up to get him. And salary is always an issue with the Sox.

And I don't give a **** what Yankee fans or beat writers think about the trade. If he picks up where he left off, he will be run out of town on a rail.
His K rate in 2008 was within a tenth of his K rate in 2006. It's not rising. Also, it's BABIP, not BAPIP.

Again, I don't believe that Swisher suddenly forgot how to hit, or that pitchers randomly figured him out. The talent is there.

thedudeabides
11-14-2008, 04:41 PM
His K rate in 2008 was within a tenth of his K rate in 2006. It's not rising. Also, it's BABIP, not BAPIP.

Again, I don't believe that Swisher suddenly forgot how to hit, or that pitchers randomly figured him out. The talent is there.

I apologize for the mistake. But, his K rate was very poor. And my point is with the concern over his bat speed. If you lose that, no the talent isn't there. Also, you can't tell me you watched him hit and he takes a succsessful approach? As others have said, he can certainly be patient to a fault. Hitting behind in the count on a regular basis is not a good approach. And it doesn't sound like he was willing to adjust.

Konerko05
11-14-2008, 05:04 PM
I think you're losing it Grebeck.

Craig Grebeck
11-14-2008, 05:07 PM
I think you're losing it Grebeck.
If that's because I made the same post twice, I agree. My college's ****ty wireless internet foiled me once again.

If it's because I believe BABIP may show that Swisher was unlucky this season, I wholeheartedly disagree.

Konerko05
11-14-2008, 05:11 PM
If that's because I made the same post twice, I agree. My college's ****ty wireless internet foiled me once again.

If it's because I believe BABIP may show that Swisher was unlucky this season, I wholeheartedly disagree.

No, it was about you responding to the same post twice. Just messing with you.

TDog
11-14-2008, 05:32 PM
Would you listen to Walker? I think it's pretty revealing that a new guy, without a history of not accepting coaching, tunes out the hitting coach after a couple of months.

It reveals more about the player who is a coming off a season as a lousy hitter and is experiencing an even more lousy season as a hitter who won't listen to his hitting coach.

Because you know nothing about Nick Swisher's history with coaches or why he was dumped by the A's, and because your default argument is that Greg Walker is a lousy hitting coach (for example, he didn't fix Swisher), Swisher was justified in ignoring him.

Yes, I would listen to Greg Walker.

Maybe Swisher will have learned enough from his failures to learn why it is important to listen to his next hitting coach.

People believed 2006 was Nick Swisher's breakthrough season. They assumed there would be improvement. Pitchers adjusted to him and he refuses to adjust in turn. If 2006 turns out to be his career year, he will have had a disappointing career.

Sox
11-14-2008, 05:53 PM
Best of Luck Swish......just not against the White Sox.

munchman33
11-14-2008, 06:46 PM
Kenny Williams is stupid. BABIP says we should have won the World Series, we were just unlucky. All of those jammed flare outs by Nick Swisher were hits in a vacuum. Duh.

JNS
11-14-2008, 07:05 PM
Hey Craig! Swisher will surely lead the Yankees to a runaway WS championship. KW will be led away in cuffs for collusion for giving away the greatest star since Joltin Joe. OMG what are we gonna do with Swisher??!!

Look, you don't need to be Nate Silver to get it sorted out. It's simple - he struck out a lot - whatever the hell his rate was in 2006. He took more third strikes than anyone I've ever seen. He NEVER ONCE shortened up his swing (see Lip's post on the previous page re. coaching) or tried to go the other way. He may have made contact on 79% of balls he swung at (what's the percentage if you add in the CALLED THIRD STRIKES?) but he got base hits on only 22 out of 100 at bats.

Oh yeah, batting average isn't important if you walk a lot. How may times was he stranded on 1st after walking when a lousy duck-snort would have gotten the run in?

Glad the guy has a few fan boys out there, but the indisputable fact is, he was pretty awful at the plate for the Sox, especially in the 2nd half. The article that Lip cites points out that his one good month, June gave him a level of confidence that he had no business having. he tanked the rest of the year.

Thome saved himself from a disastrous season - and helped the team - but swallowing his pride and shortening up, hitting to left and going against the shift. But superstar Nick couldn't bring himself to try that - even once (as far as I remember).

He was selfish and unhelpful. Good luck with the New York media and nice-guy Girardi.

Craig Grebeck
11-14-2008, 07:45 PM
Kenny Williams is stupid. BABIP says we should have won the World Series, we were just unlucky. All of those jammed flare outs by Nick Swisher were hits in a vacuum. Duh.

Hey Craig! Swisher will surely lead the Yankees to a runaway WS championship. KW will be led away in cuffs for collusion for giving away the greatest star since Joltin Joe. OMG what are we gonna do with Swisher??!!

Look, you don't need to be Nate Silver to get it sorted out. It's simple - he struck out a lot - whatever the hell his rate was in 2006. He took more third strikes than anyone I've ever seen. He NEVER ONCE shortened up his swing (see Lip's post on the previous page re. coaching) or tried to go the other way. He may have made contact on 79% of balls he swung at (what's the percentage if you add in the CALLED THIRD STRIKES?) but he got base hits on only 22 out of 100 at bats.

Oh yeah, batting average isn't important if you walk a lot. How may times was he stranded on 1st after walking when a lousy duck-snort would have gotten the run in?

Glad the guy has a few fan boys out there, but the indisputable fact is, he was pretty awful at the plate for the Sox, especially in the 2nd half. The article that Lip cites points out that his one good month, June gave him a level of confidence that he had no business having. he tanked the rest of the year.

Thome saved himself from a disastrous season - and helped the team - but swallowing his pride and shortening up, hitting to left and going against the shift. But superstar Nick couldn't bring himself to try that - even once (as far as I remember).

He was selfish and unhelpful. Good luck with the New York media and nice-guy Girardi.

Thanks for the strawmen fellas. Nice contribution to the discourse.

munchman33
11-14-2008, 07:55 PM
Thanks for the strawmen fellas. Nice contribution to the discourse.

What do you expect? You exude a holier than thou attitude when speaking about anyone who doesn't subscribe to your dubious at best statistic. You do realize that BABIP is not only NOT a standard, but it's not even accepted by lots of stat geeks, and for the reasons I keep drilling at you?

But Swisher was unlucky!!! :whiner::whiner::whiner:

You're wrong. Kenny Williams was unlucky. He gambled and paid high for a guy who he thought was a decent player and a clubhouse leader. The guy turned out to be neither. At least he's willing to move past his mistake.

champagne030
11-14-2008, 07:55 PM
Because you know nothing about Nick Swisher's history with coaches or why he was dumped by the A's, and because your default argument is that Greg Walker is a lousy hitting coach (for example, he didn't fix Swisher), Swisher was justified in ignoring him.



I see you're feeling a bit presumptuous.

JNS
11-14-2008, 07:56 PM
Thanks for the strawmen fellas. Nice contribution to the discourse.

So which part of my post is incorrect? How does any of this sully the discourse (if you want to stretch the definition to call it that)?

You've been defending Swisher's contribution to the Sox' 2008 season. We are denigrating it. I don't see anything untoward in our criticisms of Swisher or your analysis.

Craig Grebeck
11-14-2008, 07:58 PM
What do you expect? You exude a holier than thou attitude when speaking about anyone who doesn't subscribe to your dubious at best statistic. You do realize that BABIP is not only NOT a standard, but it's not even accepted by lots of stat geeks, and for the reasons I keep drilling at you?

But Swisher was unlucky!!! :whiner::whiner::whiner:

You're wrong. Kenny Williams was unlucky. He gambled and paid high for a guy who he thought was a decent player and a clubhouse leader. The guy turned out to be neither. At least he's willing to move past his mistake.
Munch, you're out of your element. First of all, BABIP is only used in certain instances. Lots of people don't accept it in a lot of cases, but Nick is a guy whose BABIP is useful in analyzing his terrible season. He has an established track record, and fairly constant LD/FB/GB rates. I'm not saying he had a good year, I'm saying he was unlucky.

Also, I don't really believe that he was **** in the clubhouse. Lots of organizations decide to throw guys under the bus after they leave. I'm not going to take Joe Cowley at face value, that's a mistake.

Craig Grebeck
11-14-2008, 08:00 PM
So which part of my post is incorrect? How does any of this sully the discourse (if you want to stretch the definition to call it that)?

You've been defending Swisher's contribution to the Sox' 2008 season. We are denigrating it. I don't see anything untoward in our criticisms of Swisher or your analysis.

Hey Craig! Swisher will surely lead the Yankees to a runaway WS championship. KW will be led away in cuffs for collusion for giving away the greatest star since Joltin Joe. OMG what are we gonna do with Swisher??!!

Clearly that was along the lines of my argument. All I am saying is we did not NEED to trade Swisher. If you can find one person outside of a White Sox beat writer who would argue the White Sox won this trade, I'd be happy to see it. This is not addition by subtraction; Nick has been a good player in the past and he'll be a good player in the future. In return, we did not get one player the Yankees had any use for. I'd be surprised if Cashman even had to think twice before pulling the trigger.

munchman33
11-14-2008, 08:01 PM
Munch, you're out of your element. First of all, BABIP is only used in certain instances. Lots of people don't accept it in a lot of cases, but Nick is a guy whose BABIP is useful in analyzing his terrible season. He has an established track record, and fairly constant LD/FB/GB rates. I'm not saying he had a good year, I'm saying he was unlucky.

Also, I don't really believe that he was **** in the clubhouse. Lots of organizations decide to throw guys under the bus after they leave. I'm not going to take Joe Cowley at face value, that's a mistake.

Craig...even Keith Law, one of you Gods, says BABIP doesn't explain Nick Swisher's season, because his contact rates are a result of decreased bat speed which caused bad contact with the baseball.

On the second point...you're right. That WASN'T Swisher sulking in the clubhouse the last two weeks of the season. Got it.

Craig Grebeck
11-14-2008, 08:02 PM
Craig...even Keith Law, one of you Gods, says BABIP doesn't explain Nick Swisher's season, because his contact rates are a result of decreased bat speed which caused bad contact with the baseball.

On the second point...you're right. That WASN'T Swisher sulking in the clubhouse the last two weeks of the season. Got it.
I don't think Keith Law is a God -- I don't even think he's that bright. I think he's an alright guy but his baseball writings aren't exactly fantastic.

Secondly, do you have access to the clubhouse?

JNS
11-14-2008, 08:03 PM
Also, I don't really believe that he was **** in the clubhouse. Lots of organizations decide to throw guys under the bus after they leave. I'm not going to take Joe Cowley at face value, that's a mistake.

You don't have to take Cowley at face or any other value. It's pretty clear that he managed to piss off his manager - a guy who gives his players a lot of leeway, and has led his [flawed] team to four good seasons out of the five he's been here. Or maybe he didn't piss Ozzie off. It doesn't matter; Swisher was benched for cause. He simply didn't produce. No team can afford to have anyone short of Ozzie Smith or Brooks Robinson start with a .219 BA.

As for your other stats - irrelevant. All you need is eyes and a 12-year-old's knowledge of the game.

TDog
11-14-2008, 08:04 PM
I see you're feeling a bit presumptuous.

If you have a better reason for a player not hitting much better than .200 to ignore his hitting coach, I missed it.

Craig Grebeck
11-14-2008, 08:05 PM
You don't have to take Cowley at face or any other value. It's pretty clear that he managed to piss off his manager - a guy who gives his players a lot of leeway, and has led his [flawed] team to four good seasons out of the five he's been here. Or maybe he didn't piss Ozzie off. It doesn't matter; Swisher was benched for cause. He simply didn't produce. No team can afford to have anyone short of Ozzie Smith or Brooks Robinson start with a .219 BA.

As for your other stats - irrelevant. All you need is eyes and a 12-year-old's knowledge of the game.
I don't really see how any of that is irrelevant, so, suit yourself.

Also, Munch, I found the Keith Law quote and color me unconvinced. Something tells me Keith hasn't looked at Swisher's batted ball rates. He didn't flat out say it, but he's insinuating that Nick's drop in BABIP was the result of a drop in line drives.

JNS
11-14-2008, 08:09 PM
Clearly that was along the lines of my argument. All I am saying is we did not NEED to trade Swisher. If you can find one person outside of a White Sox beat writer who would argue the White Sox won this trade, I'd be happy to see it. This is not addition by subtraction; Nick has been a good player in the past and he'll be a good player in the future. In return, we did not get one player the Yankees had any use for. I'd be surprised if Cashman even had to think twice before pulling the trigger.

It isn't a matter of winning or losing any individual trade. Yeah, sometimes KW reminds me of Frank Lane, and he pissed my off to the point where my brain went south about ten months ago, but I got over it. Is the ultimate trade of Gio, DLS, and Sweeny for the guys we just got from NY not so great? Probably, but so what - this wasn't a back-up-the-truck sort of thing. It was a matter of clearing some dough, getting a cheaper version of Uribe, and loading up with a couple of more arms that may or may not be worth anything.

But none of that is relevant outside of the context of who is on the roster when the team heads north in four months, and more importantly, where the Sox are in the standing 11 months from now.

As I stated in an earlier post, one has to look at KW's off-season moves holistically. This move means nothing outside the framework of the moves he has yet to make. So let's wait and see.

Craig Grebeck
11-14-2008, 08:10 PM
It isn't a matter of winning or losing any individual trade. Yeah, sometimes KW reminds me of Frank Lane, and he pissed my off to the point where my brain went south about ten months ago, but I got over it. Is the ultimate trade of Gio, DLS, and Sweeny for the guys we just got from NY not so great? Probably, but so what - this wasn't a back-up-the-truck sort of thing. It was a matter of clearing some dough, getting a cheaper version of Uribe, and loading up with a couple of more arms that may or may not be worth anything.

But none of that is relevant outside of the context of who is on the roster when the team heads north in four months, and more importantly, where the Sox are in the standing 11 months from now.

As I stated in an earlier post, one has to look at KW's off-season moves holistically. This move means nothing outside the framework of the moves he has yet to make. So let's wait and see.
Can we end this "Betemit is a cheaper version of Uribe" nonsense? Uribe is a fantastic defender at 3/4 of the infield. Betemit is below average everywhere.

champagne030
11-14-2008, 08:18 PM
If you have a better reason for a player not hitting much better than .200 to ignore his hitting coach, I missed it.

That's my point. It says volumes about the hitting coach when a player, performing at career lows, disregards his advice. Especially when said player has track record of being very coachable.

JNS
11-14-2008, 08:20 PM
Can we end this "Betemit is a cheaper version of Uribe" nonsense? Uribe is a fantastic defender at 3/4 of the infield. Betemit is below average everywhere.

That may be. But KW seems to have made the decision that the level of D he got from Uribe vis-a-vie the size of his contract and his desire to start made the trade-off worth it. Uribe wasn't going to be anything other than he was for most of 2008 - a fantastic defensive sub. He helped tremendously after Crede went down, and even hit a little bit. And I'm sure Josh Fields is no Joe Crede, but he'll be there for 155 games; Crede's career might be over, or just about.

So Betemit might not be up to Uribe's level on D, but I'm sure he'll be adequate. Or maybe our view of the guy is similar to what the world thought of Alexi 11 months ago - who knows? I don't, but I do know that Uribe, Betemit, Sweeney, Gio, DLS, or Swisher would not have made the difference between contending and not. These will be considered minor moves by the time the season starts.

champagne030
11-14-2008, 08:20 PM
Can we end this "Betemit is a cheaper version of Uribe" nonsense? Uribe is a fantastic defender at 3/4 of the infield. Betemit is below average everywhere.

He may not be below average at 1st, but I agree with the rest of your statement and will add that it's way below average at SS or 2nd. Actually, it's ****ing brutal at those positions.

JNS
11-14-2008, 08:21 PM
That's my point. It says volumes about the hitting coach when a player, performing at career lows, disregards his advice. Especially when said player has track record of being very coachable.

So it's Greg Walker's fault that Swisher is a bum?

Daver
11-14-2008, 08:24 PM
Can we end this "Betemit is a cheaper version of Uribe" nonsense? Uribe is a fantastic defender at 3/4 of the infield. Betemit is below average everywhere.

He's not as bad as Fields.

champagne030
11-14-2008, 08:29 PM
So it's Greg Walker's fault that Swisher is a bum?

Swisher had a very bad season, that was compounded by some bad luck. Walker didn't cause it and he wasn't going to fix it. Swisher isn't a bum, nor is he an all-star caliber player. I do believe he'll go back to his pre 2008 levels next year.

oeo
11-14-2008, 08:31 PM
He may not be below average at 1st, but I agree with the rest of your statement and will add that it's way below average at SS or 2nd. Actually, it's ****ing brutal at those positions.

Sounds more like Pablo Ozuna.

Uribe wants to start somewhere, and there's only one Uribe. So time to move on.

munchman33
11-14-2008, 08:32 PM
I don't really see how any of that is irrelevant, so, suit yourself.

Also, Munch, I found the Keith Law quote and color me unconvinced. Something tells me Keith hasn't looked at Swisher's batted ball rates. He didn't flat out say it, but he's insinuating that Nick's drop in BABIP was the result of a drop in line drives.

Which is true, because flares are not line drives yet BABIP counts them as such. You know...BECAUSE IT'S FLAWED.

munchman33
11-14-2008, 08:33 PM
Can we end this "Betemit is a cheaper version of Uribe" nonsense? Uribe is a fantastic defender at 3/4 of the infield. Betemit is below average everywhere.

At least we agree on something.

JNS
11-14-2008, 08:41 PM
Swisher had a very bad season, that was compounded by some bad luck. Walker didn't cause it and he wasn't going to fix it. Swisher isn't a bum, nor is he an all-star caliber player. I do believe he'll go back to his pre 2008 levels next year.

If the bat speed issue is true, he's not coming back. You are right - I over-stated. He was a bum on the Sox but he hasn't been throughout his career. That said, I think he's not going to get much better than he was in 2008. To me the most upsetting thing was his refusal to shorten up. I mentioned Thome earlier, but even Paulie did it late in the season.

MeanFish
11-14-2008, 08:57 PM
Which is true, because flares are not line drives yet BABIP counts them as such. You know...BECAUSE IT'S FLAWED.

If a hitter is hitting less line drives, it's because they're not hitting the ball as squarely. This supports the theory that he's not making contact as well as he once was, and certainly could be related to a drop in bat speed.

None of this, of course, has anything to do with luck. As a general rule players who hit the ball hard and straight are going to get more hits than people who hit weak grounders. Not all balls put into play are created equal.

champagne030
11-14-2008, 09:21 PM
If a hitter is hitting less line drives, it's because they're not hitting the ball as squarely. This supports the theory that he's not making contact as well as he once was, and certainly could be related to a drop in bat speed.

None of this, of course, has anything to do with luck. As a general rule players who hit the ball hard and straight are going to get more hits than people who hit weak grounders. Not all balls put into play are created equal.

His line drive % was actually the highest of his career in 2008. I think some adjustments to batting leadoff, combined with some bad luck made him start ****ing with his mechanics and the wheels came off.

TDog
11-14-2008, 10:06 PM
That's my point. It says volumes about the hitting coach when a player, performing at career lows, disregards his advice. Especially when said player has track record of being very coachable.

Where did you get that Swisher had a track record of being coachable?

If you want to read negatives about the hitting coach into the situation, no one is going to stop you. You would have more credibility if you found at least a small amount of fault with a player who refuses coaching when while his success diminishes over a couple of years to the point where he has reached career lows, despite having played for two organizations and multiple hitting coaches.

When in doubt you could always blame Greg Walker.

btrain929
11-14-2008, 10:07 PM
Grebeck, I'll use one of your famous lines: "just look at his home/road splits...."

I don't care what his BABIP was, when you put up a line of .189/.301/.294 on the road, that's putrid and inexcusable. And I personally don't see the pressure and the atmosphere of NY helping things at all....

Craig Grebeck
11-14-2008, 11:44 PM
Grebeck, I'll use one of your famous lines: "just look at his home/road splits...."

I don't care what his BABIP was, when you put up a line of .189/.301/.294 on the road, that's putrid and inexcusable. And I personally don't see the pressure and the atmosphere of NY helping things at all....
His road stats certainly are perplexing, but I don't think Nick is THAT bad. He's hit in Oakland before, I believe he can hit in NY. Now, if we're talking Garrett Atkins, well...

champagne030
11-15-2008, 09:08 AM
Where did you get that Swisher had a track record of being coachable?



That's all I've ever heard about him. He's not a naturally gifted baseball player, he's an athlete. He wasn't drafted, nor recruited, by hardly anyone for baseball. They all wanted him for football. Everything I've read or heard is that he's busted his ass taking advice and working to become a better player.

TDog
11-15-2008, 11:43 AM
That's all I've ever heard about him. He's not a naturally gifted baseball player, he's an athlete. He wasn't drafted, nor recruited, by hardly anyone for baseball. They all wanted him for football. Everything I've read or heard is that he's busted his ass taking advice and working to become a better player.

His father was a first-round draft pick by the White Sox. Steve Swisher didn't have a great career, but he went into coaching when his playing days were through. By all accounts, he raised his son to play baseball. Nick Swisher wasn't drafted out of high school, but he went to Ohio State to play baseball, not football, and he ended up being a first-round draft pick by the A's. He was the Big 10 freshman of the year and as a sophomore he was All Big 10. I can see where you might get the idea that he was coachable.

However, after he established himself with the A's, the people who cover the team used to complain that he didn't listen to anyone and did things his own way. The exception was in 2006 when he praised Frank Thomas for helping him turn the corner.

The fact is, he wasn't the type of hitter in 2006 who could carry a team, and he has been on a downward spiral offensively since Frank Thomas went to the Blue Jays.

champagne030
11-15-2008, 12:09 PM
His father was a first-round draft pick by the White Sox. Steve Swisher didn't have a great career, but he went into coaching when his playing days were through. By all accounts, he raised his son to play baseball. Nick Swisher wasn't drafted out of high school, but he went to Ohio State to play baseball, not football, and he ended up being a first-round draft pick by the A's. He was the Big 10 freshman of the year and as a sophomore he was All Big 10. I can see where you might get the idea that he was coachable.

However, after he established himself with the A's, the people who cover the team used to complain that he didn't listen to anyone and did things his own way. The exception was in 2006 when he praised Frank Thomas for helping him turn the corner.



I know who his dad is and was. tOSU was one of two schools to offer a paid ride to college for baseball. Bob Todd, who has been inducted into the coaches HOF for college baseball, has been on record that he loved the way Swisher took to coaching and Swisher has been on record crediting him for advancing his skills.

That's where my statements have come from....maybe he did tune out coaching with the Oakland organization and then Chicago (although that's not what a member of the White Sox front office has stated). I'm not saying it's the case, but maybe his head did get too big and it's hurt him.

That stated, Walker is still a bad hitting coach. I've had several conversations with him about hitting and he seems to think a hitting coach should be like Dr. Phil. Maybe that's the case with today's player, but I still think there needs to be some instruction and not all about 'mental well being'.

TDog
11-15-2008, 12:31 PM
...

That stated, Walker is still a bad hitting coach. I've had several conversations with him about hitting and he seems to think a hitting coach should be like Dr. Phil. Maybe that's the case with today's player, but I still think there needs to be some instruction and not all about 'mental well being'.

As I said, you can believe what you want to believe. The White Sox value Greg Walker more highly than you do, and they dumped Nick Swisher as soon as they could.

dickallen15
11-15-2008, 12:59 PM
I know who his dad is and was. tOSU was one of two schools to offer a paid ride to college for baseball. Bob Todd, who has been inducted into the coaches HOF for college baseball, has been on record that he loved the way Swisher took to coaching and Swisher has been on record crediting him for advancing his skills.

That's where my statements have come from....maybe he did tune out coaching with the Oakland organization and then Chicago (although that's not what a member of the White Sox front office has stated). I'm not saying it's the case, but maybe his head did get too big and it's hurt him.

That stated, Walker is still a bad hitting coach. I've had several conversations with him about hitting and he seems to think a hitting coach should be like Dr. Phil. Maybe that's the case with today's player, but I still think there needs to be some instruction and not all about 'mental well being'.


You should send JR your resume.

champagne030
11-15-2008, 01:07 PM
As I said, you can believe what you want to believe. The White Sox value Greg Walker more highly than you do, and they dumped Nick Swisher as soon as they could.


Oswaldo values Walker more than I do....Hence Walker keeps his job and Swisher was dumped.

JNS
11-15-2008, 02:43 PM
That stated, Walker is still a bad hitting coach. I've had several conversations with him about hitting and he seems to think a hitting coach should be like Dr. Phil. Maybe that's the case with today's player, but I still think there needs to be some instruction and not all about 'mental well being'.

That may have been the case in the past but I think most organizations would agree with Walker's approach today. You may or may not think he's a decent hitting psychologist, and a hitting coach certainly needs to deal with mechanics when a flaw is found, but how many times have you seen, heard, or read about some kid who has been over-coached and is just confused and all over the place because umpteen coaches (or just one) has screwed around with his mechanics, till whatever got him to high-level baseball is gone and forgotten.

You may remember Walt Hriniak (sp?), the Charlie Lau disciple and a proponent of a specific style of stance and swing. He was the Sox hitting coach a couple of times. he taught a particular style. It worked for you or it didn't and if it didn't there was nowhere for you to go. It's one of the secrets of the Twins success; consistant instruction up and down their system so kids don't get one thing in Rookie ball, another in AA, and another up at the show.

Walker's approach is similar to Coop's. Less about what you are doing - unless there is a flaw - and more about the substantial and necessary mental aspects of hitting a high-velocity, skidding, cutting baseball.

GrandValleyBB10
11-16-2008, 03:08 PM
Look guys,
I understand swisher had a down season last year as far as the numbers go, but we gave away our only player on the team that had any heart or desire to go out and win games. He brought that intangible "will to win" every game. He is a large part of the reason the sox even made the playoffs. Between him and cabrera nobody else really had the firery attitude. If Kenny doesn't go out and get a couple FLEA's were gunna be in for a long season of fat overweight slow players that we are going to ride out becuase we owe them too much fricken money.

Brandon,Muskegon MI

TDog
11-16-2008, 03:22 PM
Oswaldo values Walker more than I do....Hence Walker keeps his job and Swisher was dumped.

Walker was the hitting coach before Guillen was brought back to the organization to manage. I don't believe he remains with the team simply because Guillen values his contributions to the team. Guillen didn't bring in his own guy to coach hitting when he came to manage the Sox. Walker seems to answer to a higher authority in the organization.

I also think Walker is a pretty good hitting coach. I'm guessing the conversations you had with him probably didn't involve your swinging a bat.

JB98
11-16-2008, 04:31 PM
Look guys,
I understand swisher had a down season last year as far as the numbers go, but we gave away our only player on the team that had any heart or desire to go out and win games. He brought that intangible "will to win" every game. He is a large part of the reason the sox even made the playoffs. Between him and cabrera nobody else really had the firery attitude. If Kenny doesn't go out and get a couple FLEA's were gunna be in for a long season of fat overweight slow players that we are going to ride out becuase we owe them too much fricken money.

Brandon,Muskegon MI

Wow. Just wow. That statement is so incorrect that I don't even know what to say.....

GrandValleyBB10
11-16-2008, 04:34 PM
JB who else would you lump into that category then? thome? dye? wise? anderson? konerko?

JB98
11-16-2008, 04:44 PM
JB who else would you lump into that category then? thome? dye? wise? anderson? konerko?

Every player that you just listed has a strong desire to win. All of them.

You're basically making the Mike Ditka argument here. Not everyone in the world is going to show "fire" and "passion" outwardly. That doesn't mean they don't have the desire to win.

This team did not improve by 17 games in one year by employing players who do not have the desire to win.

dickallen15
11-16-2008, 04:47 PM
JB who else would you lump into that category then? thome? dye? wise? anderson? konerko?
If there were guys on the White Sox who really didn't care too much about winning, KW would quickly get rid of them.

GrandValleyBB10
11-16-2008, 04:55 PM
okay, well i just have one question about thome then?? anyone can answer this for me.

How come a guy with as much power as he has to the opposite field doesn't try and go the other way more. They play him with the shift and still continue to pitch him away and he stills pulls 95 percent of pitches. If he try and hit the ball the other way he would become very successful and possibly end the shift against him. Why does he not?

brandon

SOXSINCE'70
11-16-2008, 04:56 PM
we gave away our only player on the team that had any heart or desire to go out and win games.

I guess John Danks ,Gavin Floyd, TCQ and TCM didn't
help the Sox win in 2008.:o:

dickallen15
11-16-2008, 04:59 PM
okay, well i just have one question about thome then?? anyone can answer this for me.

How come a guy with as much power as he has to the opposite field doesn't try and go the other way more. They play him with the shift and still continue to pitch him away and he stills pulls 95 percent of pitches. If he try and hit the ball the other way he would become very successful and possibly end the shift against him. Why does he not?

brandon

Its easier said than done. Thome is a classic slugger and swings violently. He's generally pitched in and its hard to take those balls to LF with any authority. When he's seeing the ball well he can take mistakes out that way. But as hitters are set up all the time by pitchers, Thome when he's not going well and his mechanics are off will have a slow bat and will have to cheat assuming they will pound him in, which makes him either a dead pull guy or makes him look silly.

champagne030
11-16-2008, 05:03 PM
Walker was the hitting coach before Guillen was brought back to the organization to manage. I don't believe he remains with the team simply because Guillen values his contributions to the team. Guillen didn't bring in his own guy to coach hitting when he came to manage the Sox. Walker seems to answer to a higher authority in the organization.

I also think Walker is a pretty good hitting coach. I'm guessing the conversations you had with him probably didn't involve your swinging a bat.

Walker (KC: 8/2/08): "What our offense needs right now is Aaron Rowand."

Champagne: "Really, how would that help our offense?"

Walker: "Aaron was a grinder and would light a fire under the rest of the guys."

Champagne: turns to his friend as says that Greg is so wasted he might need help back to his room.........

dickallen15
11-16-2008, 05:07 PM
Walker (KC: 8/2/08): "What our offense needs right now is Aaron Rowand."

Champagne: "Really, how would that help our offense?"

Walker: "Aaron was a grinder and would light a fire under the rest of the guys."

Champagne: turns to his friend as says that Greg is so wasted he might need help back to his room.........

It seems so unfair Walker makes six figures as a major league hitting coach, getting praise from many, and you're just some anonymous poster on a message board. It should be the other way around.

champagne030
11-16-2008, 05:26 PM
It seems so unfair Walker makes six figures as a major league hitting coach, getting praise from many, and you're just some anonymous poster on a message board. It should be the other way around.

Thanks Greg. Where's the praise?

I really don't give two ****s if he's liked or not........

I'd make nice coin being the hitting coach, but I'd have about as much influence as Walker.

I was just pointing out some of the thought process of the batting coach of the White Sox.

TomBradley72
11-16-2008, 05:34 PM
I don't understand ANY angst over trading Swisher...he's a corner OF/1B...we're set at all 3 positions, and we've now freed up an average of $7MM/yr. to go fill the holes we actually have....3rd base, 2nd base, bullpen help, etc. Not many teams are going to take on Swisher's salary coming off a .219 year (<.200 after the All Star break). Yankees are one of the few. Looks like we've found a replacement for Uribe and we've added a few decent arms to a sparse farm system. His value to a team's clubhouse is very overrated...he showed his true colors when he was pouting in late September due to his lack of playing time. I'll take TCQ, Dye and Konerko over Swisher any day of the week. He can take his self promoting ass to another team.

It's a good move for both the short and long term.

Daver
11-16-2008, 05:39 PM
I don't understand ANY angst over trading Swisher...he's a corner OF/1B...we're set at all 3 positions,


You can never have enough corner outfielders on your roster, that's why the White Sox have had on playing center for the last five seasons or so.

Craig Grebeck
11-16-2008, 05:58 PM
I don't understand ANY angst over trading Swisher...he's a corner OF/1B...we're set at all 3 positions, and we've now freed up an average of $7MM/yr. to go fill the holes we actually have....3rd base, 2nd base, bullpen help, etc. Not many teams are going to take on Swisher's salary coming off a .219 year (<.200 after the All Star break). Yankees are one of the few. Looks like we've found a replacement for Uribe and we've added a few decent arms to a sparse farm system. His value to a team's clubhouse is very overrated...he showed his true colors when he was pouting in late September due to his lack of playing time. I'll take TCQ, Dye and Konerko over Swisher any day of the week. He can take his self promoting ass to another team.

It's a good move for both the short and long term.
Betemit is not Uribe. Stop it, everybody.

oeo
11-16-2008, 06:00 PM
Betemit is not Uribe. Stop it, everybody.

He's 'replacing' Uribe whether he's as good or not. :shrug:

Daver
11-16-2008, 06:12 PM
He's 'replacing' Uribe whether he's as good or not. :shrug:

When did you get the job of assistant GM for the White Sox?

MISoxfan
11-16-2008, 07:16 PM
okay, well i just have one question about thome then?? anyone can answer this for me.

How come a guy with as much power as he has to the opposite field doesn't try and go the other way more. They play him with the shift and still continue to pitch him away and he stills pulls 95 percent of pitches. If he try and hit the ball the other way he would become very successful and possibly end the shift against him. Why does he not?

brandon

I guess being a future hall of fame baseball player doesn't count as successful?

Madscout
11-16-2008, 09:25 PM
I guess being a future hall of fame baseball player doesn't count as successful?
How does that help the Sox win now?

edit: By that line of thought, we should have resigned KG, go out and get Randy Johnson for a big contract, resign Frank Thomas, and go get Omar Vizquel. That is bull****, you know it, and it has nothing to do with the fact that Thome isn't worth his contract anymore.

GrandValleyBB10
11-16-2008, 10:44 PM
MISOXFAN,

If we were basing this argument on Merit or previous seasons I would agree with you that he is a future hall of famer...However, regardless of being able to hit 30+ homeruns he has the worst strike out to walk ratio in the history of baseball. Maybe the 2nd worst, but who's counting... I really think that in order for the sox to be successful next year they are going to have to improve team speed and cut back on power numbers. IF this means that Thome has to try and take the ball the other way to avoid 345 ground outs to short right field next year then so be it. I am too big of a white sox fan to see the 4-6 guys hit an average of 240 again next year. I would like to see Thome as a DH only against right handed pitchers. We would all be better off

brandon,Muskegon

rdivaldi
11-17-2008, 08:27 PM
Betemit is not Uribe. Stop it, everybody.

He's a better hitter and a decent fielder. Not bad for a utility guy.

champagne030
11-17-2008, 08:45 PM
He's a better hitter and a decent fielder. Not bad for a utility guy.

At 1st and 3rd....Brutal at 2nd and SS. Hopefully, the guy giving our SS and 2B a break has not yet been acquired.

rdivaldi
11-17-2008, 10:09 PM
At 1st and 3rd....Brutal at 2nd and SS. Hopefully, the guy giving our SS and 2B a break has not yet been acquired.

I can't disagree with that, he doesn't have the range anymore to be a major league average 2b/SS. Honestly I currently consider Getz to be a candidate to be our utility 2b/SS. I know people want him to start, but I'm not sure he's ready for that.

champagne030
11-17-2008, 11:02 PM
I can't disagree with that, he doesn't have the range anymore to be a major league average 2b/SS. Honestly I currently consider Getz to be a candidate to be our utility 2b/SS. I know people want him to start, but I'm not sure he's ready for that.

I haven't seen him (Getz) in two years (other than his stint in Chicago). Would he be able to handle SS for anything more than an emergency situation?

rdivaldi
11-26-2008, 12:18 AM
I haven't seen him (Getz) in two years (other than his stint in Chicago). Would he be able to handle SS for anything more than an emergency situation?

He'd be able to handle an in-game change and start a couple if need be. I wouldn't want him there for 30-40 games a season though.