PDA

View Full Version : Contract the Marlins


BadBobbyJenks
11-13-2008, 01:42 PM
Enough is enough, this is ridiculous. I actually used to defend this franchise because of how they gathered talent to build the 2003 championship team only to tear it down immediately. Once again it looked like they were building towards a contender with the Hanley Ramirez trade, picking Uggla in the rule 5 draft and building what looks to be a very good nucleus in the outfield with Hermida, Maybin and Willingham.

Now they have traded off four arbitration players with the Gregg trade to the Cubs today (http://sports.espn.go.com/mlb/news/story?id=3700730) before this team accomplished anything.

This owner gets what 30 million a year in revenue sharing? Their roster was 22 Million before these trades. Shoudn't all teams be required to spend at least the amount they recieve in revenue sharing instead of an owner pocketing it?

Would Major League Baseball be able to install a floor salaray without putting a max cap?

Move them to Vegas or make this Owner sell the team.

Thoughts?

veeter
11-13-2008, 01:49 PM
Before they get contracted, they'll probably win another championship. With any money at all, IMO they'd be the best organization in baseball.

DumpJerry
11-13-2008, 01:49 PM
Why should we care how they manage themselves? Unless you're a Marlin fan or investor, it really does not impact on the White Sox.

If I were to invest in a baseball team, I would do the Royals or Marlins. Best ROI in MLB!

eaganmafia
11-13-2008, 01:52 PM
I'm gonna side with the Marlins on this. They're very good at finding good talent in other organizations so I'll trust the Marlins on this.

I don't have a problem with the fire sales they have every couple years, but if that's how this organization wants to run things good for them.

BadBobbyJenks
11-13-2008, 01:53 PM
Why should we care how they manage themselves? Unless you're a Marlin fan or investor, it really does not impact on the White Sox.

If I were to invest in a baseball team, I would do the Royals or Marlins. Best ROI in MLB!

This is the talking baseball forum, not the Sox clubhouse. I think it is pathetic that an Owner is allowed to take in the revenue sharing and not put it into the team.

esbrechtel
11-13-2008, 02:07 PM
I agree that it is bogus that a team could get more in revenue sharing than they pay in salary. That should be the salary floor IMO...

Craig Grebeck
11-13-2008, 02:09 PM
Enough is enough, this is ridiculous. I actually used to defend this franchise because of how they gathered talent to build the 2003 championship team only to tear it down immediately. Once again it looked like they were building towards a contender with the Hanley Ramirez trade, picking Uggla in the rule 5 draft and building what looks to be a very good nucleus in the outfield with Hermida, Maybin and Willingham.

Now they have traded off four arbitration players with the Gregg trade to the Cubs today (http://sports.espn.go.com/mlb/news/story?id=3700730) before this team accomplished anything.

This owner gets what 30 million a year in revenue sharing? Their roster was 22 Million before these trades. Shoudn't all teams be required to spend at least the amount they recieve in revenue sharing instead of an owner pocketing it?

Would Major League Baseball be able to install a floor salaray without putting a max cap?

Move them to Vegas or make this Owner sell the team.

Thoughts?
They gave up a ****ty reliever in Gregg for a good reliever prospect in Ceda. Problem?

BadBobbyJenks
11-13-2008, 02:11 PM
They gave up a ****ty reliever in Gregg for a good reliever prospect in Ceda. Problem?

My problem isn't the Gregg trade, nice reading. It is a chain of trades and the fact that they don't put the revenue sharing into the team.

veeter
11-13-2008, 02:13 PM
My problem isn't the Gregg trade, nice reading. It is a chain of trades and the fact that they don't put the revenue sharing into the team.I don't know for sure, but when you draw about 2000 people a game, and have a payroll of about $20-30 million, you're getting the money from somewhere other than fans.

Craig Grebeck
11-13-2008, 02:14 PM
My problem isn't the Gregg trade, nice reading. It is a chain of trades and the fact that they don't put the revenue sharing into the team.
And yet they've been more successful than us since they were created.

eaganmafia
11-13-2008, 02:20 PM
And yet they've been more successful than us since they were created.

Success=World Series Wins

DumpJerry
11-13-2008, 02:23 PM
This is the talking baseball forum, not the Sox clubhouse. I think it is pathetic that an Owner is allowed to take in the revenue sharing and not put it into the team.
I still say so what. It's their team, they can do what they want with it.

cws05champ
11-13-2008, 02:34 PM
They were competative last year, so what's the big deal. So they deal an average lefty, one of their OF and their closer. They have more young pitching ready for the rotation and the bullpen. Chances are Gregg may not have closed for them next year anyways with Lindstrom taking over late in the season in 2008. They picked up a good prospect that could be one of a few dominant BP arms they have, if he pans out.

Do I think it's right in the spirit of revenue sharing and balence? No, but they have proven over and over they can continue to re-tool with young guys and when they see a chance to go for it they do spend some more money. They will have a lot of talent on that roster....

Lip Man 1
11-13-2008, 02:40 PM
Yes Florida has two World series titles however it should also be noted that they bought one for a single season then immediately after winning it, sold most of the pieces off.

Would I like the Sox to "buy" another title? Absolutely...without question!

Would I like them to then immediately gut the team to cut expenses and go in the tank for five years.....absolutely not.

Lip

SoxSpeed22
11-13-2008, 02:55 PM
The Marlins have, and always will be soulless as long as greedy, overlord owners like Huizinga (sold in 1998) and Loria continue to run the team.

turners56
11-13-2008, 02:57 PM
Why should we care how they manage themselves? Unless you're a Marlin fan or investor, it really does not impact on the White Sox.

If I were to invest in a baseball team, I would do the Royals or Marlins. Best ROI in MLB!

It could. A team with a good farm system like the Twins can take advantage and acquire some of the players they are trying to dump.

LITTLE NELL
11-13-2008, 03:00 PM
I watch the Marlins a lot and they always amaze me in the respect that they always bring up kids that can play the game, and the team is always around the .500 mark if not better.

pmck003
11-13-2008, 03:01 PM
I'd have to know what other owners are pocketing to have an issue with it. I have a feeling most owners are pocketing as much or at least their franchise is growing in value at a faster rate.

SoxFan88
11-13-2008, 03:09 PM
Yes the marlins are trading away solid players but if you look at what this team has waiting in the minors (Raynor, Maybin, Sanchez.....) they may be even better next year.

veeter
11-13-2008, 03:39 PM
It could. A team with a good farm system like the Twins can take advantage and acquire some of the players they are trying to dump.See Jim Hendry. Derick Lee for He Sop Choi.

RKMeibalane
11-13-2008, 04:00 PM
You guys are overlooking the best part of this:

Kerry Wood: He Gawn! (http://sports.espn.go.com/mlb/news/story?id=3700730)

getonbckthr
11-13-2008, 04:09 PM
Enough is enough, this is ridiculous. I actually used to defend this franchise because of how they gathered talent to build the 2003 championship team only to tear it down immediately. Once again it looked like they were building towards a contender with the Hanley Ramirez trade, picking Uggla in the rule 5 draft and building what looks to be a very good nucleus in the outfield with Hermida, Maybin and Willingham.

Now they have traded off four arbitration players with the Gregg trade to the Cubs today (http://sports.espn.go.com/mlb/news/story?id=3700730) before this team accomplished anything.

This owner gets what 30 million a year in revenue sharing? Their roster was 22 Million before these trades. Shoudn't all teams be required to spend at least the amount they recieve in revenue sharing instead of an owner pocketing it?

Would Major League Baseball be able to install a floor salaray without putting a max cap?

Move them to Vegas or make this Owner sell the team.

Thoughts?
If they think a guy who is 10 years younger and multi-millions cheaper can do as a good of a job maybe a little better why not go that route?

Lundind1
11-13-2008, 04:56 PM
I'm gonna side with the Marlins on this. They're very good at finding good talent in other organizations so I'll trust the Marlins on this.

I don't have a problem with the fire sales they have every couple years, but if that's how this organization wants to run things good for them.


I might agree with some of this but they sure as heck don't sell many tickets, jerseys, or hotdogs. If you have a contender every year then the money actually is greater. In baseball the variable costs very so much that ROI would not show decent returns.
EX)
If you had operating expenses of 200 million and a revenue stream of 300 million, it would lead you to a profit of 100 million. That is a 50% ROI. Compare that to a team that keeps expenses down. Operating expenses of 100 million and revenues of 175 million would total 75 mil in profits. That would lead to a 75% ROI.

As things get larger and the variable costs go up to operate, your ROI will decrease. I know I am turning into professor Dave and some might not agree with my idea or numbers but there is a level of fixed income that these teams get. The larger your share of the pie also, the more you pay into the revenue sharing pool for disbursements to others in the franchise system.

The only thing I can say is I am a numbers nerd and I believe in law of diminishing returns.

MHOUSE
11-13-2008, 09:38 PM
It's their team, they can do with it as they wish. I'd like to have a World Series winner every 6 years though! :bandance: They're basically doing what every other team does, they just choose to do it all at once and not care what people think. Most trades are somehow, if not completely, motivated by salary and $$. With free agents becoming more and more expensive long-term commitments, why not just grow your own and let someone else pay them their big payday? It's just business, selling at peak value, and something that a lot of other teams don't pay attention to while they hang onto fan favorites so they can finish with the team or reach a milestone. Would you rather they just non-tender or release players or let them walk?

munchman33
11-13-2008, 10:06 PM
Contract the Marlins? Their organization works with what they have, and they've done a pretty decent job. Moving the Marlins is more likely.

Red Barchetta
11-14-2008, 03:52 PM
Contract the Marlins? Their organization works with what they have, and they've done a pretty decent job. Moving the Marlins is more likely.

The Marlins have won two World Series while playing in a football field. They had a game this past season where they only drew 600 fans.

The Rays had their first winning season in franchise history, made it to the playoffs and still could not sell out a playoff game because the Bucaneers were playing on the same day.

Florida baseball anyone!? :redface:

Hitmen77
11-14-2008, 05:19 PM
Isn't the Marlins new ballpark moving forward? If so, then there's no way they'd be a candidate for contraction or moving in the near future.

PKalltheway
11-14-2008, 05:25 PM
I would love to see the Marlins and their joke of a franchise get contracted, but that ain't happenin' anytime soon.

Parrothead
11-14-2008, 10:39 PM
I would love to see the Marlins and their joke of a franchise get contracted, but that ain't happenin' anytime soon.

Their joke of a franchise has won more world series than ours in my lifetime in a much shorter period. Their joke has much better scouts and a minor league system. Based upon winning who should be contracted?

cub killer
11-14-2008, 11:06 PM
Their joke of a franchise has won more world series than ours in my lifetime in a much shorter period. Their joke has much better scouts and a minor league system. Based upon winning who should be contracted?

I agree. No franchise who won 2 World titles in its first decade of existence should be contracted. Kudos to the Marlins for what they have accomplished. In 2003, they caught up to our WS title total, and we had a 90 year head start on them

munchman33
11-15-2008, 12:01 AM
The Marlins have won two World Series while playing in a football field. They had a game this past season where they only drew 600 fans.

The Rays had their first winning season in franchise history, made it to the playoffs and still could not sell out a playoff game because the Bucaneers were playing on the same day.

Florida baseball anyone!? :redface:

I still fail to see why contraction is a better option than relocation. There are a lot of markets that baseball hasn't tapped where it would undoubtedly thrive. Las Vegas comes to mind.

If anything, baseball should be expanding. Contraction is a terrible idea. Revenue is up.

Jpgr91
11-15-2008, 12:33 AM
Every team in that Division has the ability to outspend the Marlins. To me, it seems like they are taking the best possible approach to building a winning team. Both the teams in the WS this year were able to build from with in, so it is not like there is no basis for the Marlins approach.

Jpgr91
11-15-2008, 12:35 AM
I still fail to see why contraction is a better option than relocation. There are a lot of markets that baseball hasn't tapped where it would undoubtedly thrive. Las Vegas comes to mind.

If anything, baseball should be expanding. Contraction is a terrible idea. Revenue is up.

Las Vegas will never have a MLB team. Baseball has done everything they possibly can to distance themselves from gambling, I do not know why they would change course and allow a team to move to LV. IIRC, I think LV Mayor had the Marlins ownership out there a few years ago trying to sell them on the city.

Ziggy S
11-15-2008, 01:24 AM
see jim hendry. Derick lee for he sop choi.

hendry the thief!

TDog
11-15-2008, 02:52 AM
Las Vegas will never have a MLB team. Baseball has done everything they possibly can to distance themselves from gambling, I do not know why they would change course and allow a team to move to LV. IIRC, I think LV Mayor had the Marlins ownership out there a few years ago trying to sell them on the city.

I could see baseball consenting to a team moving to Las Vegas if Nevada prohibited betting on baseball. But I could never see Las Vegas supporting a team.

guillen4life13
11-15-2008, 03:30 AM
I don't know if any of you live in Miami, but I have for the last two years and will continue to at least until 2011.

Dolphin Stadium (the Marlins' home stadium, and now the Miami Hurricanes' home stadium) is one hell of a commute for a good portion of the Miami (especially Cuban) community. It is on the northern edge of Dade County and considering the traffic and routes to get there, it is a very inconvenient location. To expect fans to come out in good numbers for 81 games is incredibly tough. As a big 'Canes fan and student who gets free access to football games, it is still very tough to make time and find a way to the stadium for a game, even on weekends.

Actually the 'Canes (who, despite their lack of ranking are challenging for the ACC title and an Orange Bowl slot), the second most popular sports team in South Florida until their relocation, have not been drawing anywhere close to the number of fans they did at the old OB. Going to games for the last two years meant a packed stadium. This year you see tons of empty seats. The location and commute really kills it. There's only one major interstate highway around it (I-95) and while there are other highways, they move very slowly.

In a Chicago sense, think of the Sox playing their games in Glen Ellyn and the Eisenhower EXPY doesn't exist. Coming from the city, you have to take Roosevelt Rd. as your main route to get to the stadium.

I live quite close to Little Havana and Calle Ocho. These are heavily Cuban communities, as you would obviously reckon. They do like baseball. It's just not worth it for them to make the commute to Miami Gardens and see the games.

The Orange Bowl is located in a much more accessible neighborhood for public transportation (the Metrorail connects to a frequent bus service to that runs by the stadium) and the neighborhood, while a little bit poorer, is ripe for a baseball team like the Marlins to cater to given the cultural background.

They will be fine, especially when some of these players develop. Hanley is as good as any player around whom you can build a team. He is still incredibly young and has shown himself to be one of the top all around offensive players in the game. The prospects they got for Cabrera and Willis (who is now more a negative for the Tigers) should do alright. I'm especially high on Cameron Maybin.

So, in conclusion, I think this would be the worst time to even consider contracting this franchise. The ownership sucks but ownership can be temporary and I can see them pulling what the Rays did last season relatively soon. As long as they keep their ticket prices and/or promotions within reason, they will draw a crowd at their new location.

I root for the Marlins as second best behind the Sox. I want to see them do well and I tend to support the unheralded underdog teams unless the Sox are involved as favorites. Their current situation just doesn't encourage strong success, but I think their stadium relocation is exactly what they need to bring bigger crowds in.

Red Barchetta
11-15-2008, 08:59 AM
I don't know if any of you live in Miami, but I have for the last two years and will continue to at least until 2011.

Dolphin Stadium (the Marlins' home stadium, and now the Miami Hurricanes' home stadium) is one hell of a commute for a good portion of the Miami (especially Cuban) community. It is on the northern edge of Dade County and considering the traffic and routes to get there, it is a very inconvenient location. To expect fans to come out in good numbers for 81 games is incredibly tough. As a big 'Canes fan and student who gets free access to football games, it is still very tough to make time and find a way to the stadium for a game, even on weekends.

Actually the 'Canes (who, despite their lack of ranking are challenging for the ACC title and an Orange Bowl slot), the second most popular sports team in South Florida until their relocation, have not been drawing anywhere close to the number of fans they did at the old OB. Going to games for the last two years meant a packed stadium. This year you see tons of empty seats. The location and commute really kills it. There's only one major interstate highway around it (I-95) and while there are other highways, they move very slowly.

In a Chicago sense, think of the Sox playing their games in Glen Ellyn and the Eisenhower EXPY doesn't exist. Coming from the city, you have to take Roosevelt Rd. as your main route to get to the stadium.

I live quite close to Little Havana and Calle Ocho. These are heavily Cuban communities, as you would obviously reckon. They do like baseball. It's just not worth it for them to make the commute to Miami Gardens and see the games.

The Orange Bowl is located in a much more accessible neighborhood for public transportation (the Metrorail connects to a frequent bus service to that runs by the stadium) and the neighborhood, while a little bit poorer, is ripe for a baseball team like the Marlins to cater to given the cultural background.

They will be fine, especially when some of these players develop. Hanley is as good as any player around whom you can build a team. He is still incredibly young and has shown himself to be one of the top all around offensive players in the game. The prospects they got for Cabrera and Willis (who is now more a negative for the Tigers) should do alright. I'm especially high on Cameron Maybin.

So, in conclusion, I think this would be the worst time to even consider contracting this franchise. The ownership sucks but ownership can be temporary and I can see them pulling what the Rays did last season relatively soon. As long as they keep their ticket prices and/or promotions within reason, they will draw a crowd at their new location.

I root for the Marlins as second best behind the Sox. I want to see them do well and I tend to support the unheralded underdog teams unless the Sox are involved as favorites. Their current situation just doesn't encourage strong success, but I think their stadium relocation is exactly what they need to bring bigger crowds in.

As a recent transplant to the Tampa Bay area, I hope the Marlins new ballpark proves to be a success.

Similar to the Marlins, the Rays are hurt by their lack of a true ballpark and the originally chosen location. Both teams should have Arizona-Milwaukee-Houston like retractable roof ballparks. The Florida humidity and rain can become pretty intense through July/August, however like other geographical areas we also have some absolutely beautiful weather during the spring and fall and would love to watch open-air baseball during those times.

The Rays new ownership have done a tremendous job in building a solid team, however now the fans need to step up and support the organization so they have enough ammunition to build a new ballpark.

getonbckthr
11-15-2008, 09:33 AM
I could see baseball consenting to a team moving to Las Vegas if Nevada prohibited betting on baseball. But I could never see Las Vegas supporting a team.
Vegas would never do it. They would lose more money from the gambling than they would gain from the team.

PatK
11-15-2008, 11:05 AM
You also have to look at the fact that Spring Training is held in Florida, and their are a lot of old people there as well.

Many of them will have their fill of baseball for the year after Spring Training and. Plus, it costs less to attend ST games.

guillen4life13
11-15-2008, 11:09 AM
You also have to look at the fact that Spring Training is held in Florida, and their are a lot of old people there as well.

Many of them will have their fill of baseball for the year after Spring Training and. Plus, it costs less to attend ST games.

Spring Training doesn't come this far south. You have to up up past Palm Beach if you want to see some ST games and that caters to a totally different crowd. The Miami community does not have easy access to ST.

PKalltheway
11-15-2008, 11:33 AM
Their joke of a franchise has won more world series than ours in my lifetime in a much shorter period. Their joke has much better scouts and a minor league system. Based upon winning who should be contracted?
Ok, so maybe I was a little extreme in saying that. I just don't like the way they go about doing things. I know baseball is a business, but to me, they're too cold and business-like in the way they go about running their franchise. It just seems so uncoventional to me how instead of trying to build long-term success after a successful season, they just blow it all up and try to do it again in 3-4 years.

Oh well, I guess that just plays into the fact that people root for the uniform now, instead of the players that wear them. I don't like the way they run their franchise, and there's obviously nothing I can do about it, but whatever. If it's working for them, go for it.

PatK
11-15-2008, 12:53 PM
Spring Training doesn't come this far south. You have to up up past Palm Beach if you want to see some ST games and that caters to a totally different crowd. The Miami community does not have easy access to ST.

I should have clarified that I meant that in regards to the Rays.

MiamiSpartan
11-25-2008, 06:19 AM
The Marlins won the last court judgment for the new ballpark, which means groundbreaking should be sometime this spring...

palehozenychicty
11-25-2008, 08:31 AM
I don't know if any of you live in Miami, but I have for the last two years and will continue to at least until 2011.

Dolphin Stadium (the Marlins' home stadium, and now the Miami Hurricanes' home stadium) is one hell of a commute for a good portion of the Miami (especially Cuban) community. It is on the northern edge of Dade County and considering the traffic and routes to get there, it is a very inconvenient location. To expect fans to come out in good numbers for 81 games is incredibly tough. As a big 'Canes fan and student who gets free access to football games, it is still very tough to make time and find a way to the stadium for a game, even on weekends.

Actually the 'Canes (who, despite their lack of ranking are challenging for the ACC title and an Orange Bowl slot), the second most popular sports team in South Florida until their relocation, have not been drawing anywhere close to the number of fans they did at the old OB. Going to games for the last two years meant a packed stadium. This year you see tons of empty seats. The location and commute really kills it. There's only one major interstate highway around it (I-95) and while there are other highways, they move very slowly.

In a Chicago sense, think of the Sox playing their games in Glen Ellyn and the Eisenhower EXPY doesn't exist. Coming from the city, you have to take Roosevelt Rd. as your main route to get to the stadium.

I live quite close to Little Havana and Calle Ocho. These are heavily Cuban communities, as you would obviously reckon. They do like baseball. It's just not worth it for them to make the commute to Miami Gardens and see the games.

The Orange Bowl is located in a much more accessible neighborhood for public transportation (the Metrorail connects to a frequent bus service to that runs by the stadium) and the neighborhood, while a little bit poorer, is ripe for a baseball team like the Marlins to cater to given the cultural background.

They will be fine, especially when some of these players develop. Hanley is as good as any player around whom you can build a team. He is still incredibly young and has shown himself to be one of the top all around offensive players in the game. The prospects they got for Cabrera and Willis (who is now more a negative for the Tigers) should do alright. I'm especially high on Cameron Maybin.

So, in conclusion, I think this would be the worst time to even consider contracting this franchise. The ownership sucks but ownership can be temporary and I can see them pulling what the Rays did last season relatively soon. As long as they keep their ticket prices and/or promotions within reason, they will draw a crowd at their new location.

I root for the Marlins as second best behind the Sox. I want to see them do well and I tend to support the unheralded underdog teams unless the Sox are involved as favorites. Their current situation just doesn't encourage strong success, but I think their stadium relocation is exactly what they need to bring bigger crowds in.


I wondered about this as well until I visited Miami for the first time a few years back, and your words are dead on. If they get that stadium built near the old Orange Bowl, they'll draw. The team is young, energetic, and gritty. They never had issues with attendance when the team made those title runs, if I recall correctly.

FarmerAndy
11-25-2008, 10:59 AM
With the lowest payroll in baseball, The Marlins were over .500 and had a record better than the NL West champion LA Dodgers in 2008.

Why would anybody want to contract this team? When you have teams out there like the Pirates and Royals who would have their fans believe that they can't compete because they can't spend money like the Yankees, the Marlins are refreshing. They don't moan, complain, and cry poor. They've proven that you can compete by being smart when it comes to evaluating talent and player development. They almost always field a competitive team and they have 2 championships in 15 years of existance..... all without large attendence and payroll figures.

The Marlins do not deserve contraction. They desrve more recognition.

soxfan43
11-25-2008, 11:30 AM
As a recent transplant to the Tampa Bay area, I hope the Marlins new ballpark proves to be a success.

Similar to the Marlins, the Rays are hurt by their lack of a true ballpark and the originally chosen location. Both teams should have Arizona-Milwaukee-Houston like retractable roof ballparks. The Florida humidity and rain can become pretty intense through July/August, however like other geographical areas we also have some absolutely beautiful weather during the spring and fall and would love to watch open-air baseball during those times.

The Rays new ownership have done a tremendous job in building a solid team, however now the fans need to step up and support the organization so they have enough ammunition to build a new ballpark.

I am potentially relocating to Tampa soon for work, how do you like it compared to Chicago? I actually hope the rays continue to draw bad, be easier for me to get good tickets. As far as the Marlins go, don't hate the player, hate the game. For the situation they are in with a weak fan base, they are making the best decisions for their franchise based on how baseball works. Not their fault they get revenue sharing, not their fault there's no salary cap/floor. They have good scouting, good mgt and it's worked out pretty well so far.