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View Full Version : As a True Sox Fan, Which Would You Rather Have...


WhiteSoxFan84
11-12-2008, 10:11 PM
Most all of us here at WSI are true, die hard White Sox fans and most all of us are brutally honest about our team. Some of us are way too pessimistic at times and others seemto be optimistic all the time. With that being established, I put together the following scenario...

Kenny Williams has been quoted in numerous articles stating that he wants to continue to compete for a World Series while at the same time making the team younger. There have been the same amount of articles circulating with the names of Javier Vazquez, Jermaine Dye, Paul Konerko, and Nick Swisher being shopped around. It is likely that one of these guys will be traded, but not all. What this player being traded MAY do is bring us back a solid prospect or two OR the trade will net us a speedster and a raw reliever with potential but also with a lot of work to be done. The trade may also get us something else completely, but those are our biggest needs and the point is not much more is expected in return. So, would you (as a realistic Sox fan who would still love your team through 2-3 years of rebuilding as long as most moves made during that stretch make sense and are aimmed at making the team better for the long run) rather...

A) Go ahead with Kenny's plan of getting young while still trying to compete for a World Series - but truthfully we know this will be very tough to do considering how old our lineup is.
B) Begin a serious, complete, yet quick rebuilding process. Trade Vazquez, Dye, Konerko, Swisher, Thornton, Pierzynski, and maybe even Mark Buehrle, for younger, talented players and focus on drafting strong and signing guys under the age of 28 or so. Hang on to Floyd, Danks, Alexei, Quentin, Jenks, and everyone we have in our system on their way up, and build around them.


With Option A, we may win a division title or two in the next 3 years and may be a contender for the World Series, but that would be far fetched. After those 3 years, we'd probably find our team rebuilding since Pierzynski, Konerko, Dye, Thome, Vazquez and Buehrle will probably all be gone or going.
With Option B, we move all those guys now and hope our scouts are good enough to draft and sign talented players to add on to our nucleus as it is today and to be ready to compete for the following 3-5 years for not only a division title every year, but also a World Series.

oeo
11-12-2008, 10:18 PM
Most all of us here at WSI are true, die hard White Sox fans and most all of us are brutally honest about our team. Some of us are way too pessimistic at times and others seemto be optimistic all the time. With that being established, I put together the following scenario...

Kenny Williams has been quoted in numerous articles stating that he wants to continue to compete for a World Series while at the same time making the team younger. There have been the same amount of articles circulating with the names of Javier Vazquez, Jermaine Dye, Paul Konerko, and Nick Swisher being shopped around. It is likely that one of these guys will be traded, but not all. What this player being traded MAY do is bring us back a solid prospect or two OR the trade will net us a speedster and a raw reliever with potential but also with a lot of work to be done. The trade may also get us something else completely, but those are our biggest needs and the point is not much more is expected in return. So, would you (as a realistic Sox fan who would still love your team through 2-3 years of rebuilding as long as most moves made during that stretch make sense and are aimmed at making the team better for the long run) rather...

A) Go ahead with Kenny's plan of getting young while still trying to compete for a World Series - but truthfully we know this will be very tough to do considering how old our lineup is.
B) Begin a serious, complete, yet quick rebuilding process. Trade Vazquez, Dye, Konerko, Swisher, Thornton, Pierzynski, and maybe even Mark Buehrle, for younger, talented players and focus on drafting strong and signing guys under the age of 28 or so. Hang on to Floyd, Danks, Alexei, Quentin, Jenks, and everyone we have in our system on their way up, and build around them.


With Option A, we may in a division title or two in the next 3 years and MAYBE be a contender for the World Series, but that would be far fetched. After those 3 years, we'd probably find our team rebuilding since Pierzynski, Konerko, Dye, Thome, Vazquez and Buehrle will probably all be gone or going.
With Option B, we move all those guys now and hope to be ready to compete or the following 3-5 years for not only a division title every year, but also a World Series every year.

Option B may have been a justifiable option last year when it looked like the organization could go nowhere but down. With the emergence of Quentin, Alexei, Danks, and Floyd, how can you justify rebuilding? We have a good veteran core, and a good youth core. The farm can go nowhere but up, and with guys in the 2008 draft like Beckham, Danks, Carter, Upchurch, Hudson, Morel, Kuhn, etc., plus Buddy Bell taking over the reigns, it appears it will.

Win now, and win later. As long as we draft well, and start developing well, it's a definite possibility.

rdwj
11-12-2008, 10:19 PM
We have plenty of solid pieces. I don't think it's unrealistic to think that this team can contend and get younger. The young blood we had on the roster last year produced big time. No reason to believe KW can't put a very good team on the field.

kidmccarthy
11-12-2008, 10:19 PM
I dont know, going into last year, if you would have told me we would have an all-star potential nucleus of Quentin, Ramirez, Danks, maybe Floyd, Jenks, non-all star youth of Swisher, Richard and on the way Beckham, Danks and Poreda, I would have laughed.

I think the rebuilding already has been made.

Other than PK, Thome and Dye (one will be traded) we are pretty young. Javy and Mark are still fairly young, and I doubt Javy lasts past the all-star break. Be smart and sell high on Javy or PK at the all-star break if they are playing well and we can net some young stud, and we have two good high picks this year, I think we are pretty well re-stocked now and in the future.

JermaineDye05
11-12-2008, 10:20 PM
I think you can still rebuild and compete for a title. You just need to get rid of the big three (Thome, Konerko, Dye). If you could trade one or two of those guys with a combination of pitching prospects then you could be in some good shape for years to come, I think you move Swisher to first where he's more comfortable. You can sign or trade for an outfielder or 2 to go with Quentin and possibly Anderson. I think in a couple years we'll see Danks in centerfield. I hope we can sign Viceodo cause that could really help us get younger and better if he really is as good as hyped, and if Beckham comes up in the next 2 years you look pretty set in the infield with Viceado/Ramirez/Beckham/Swisher. I don't want to get too much into it all, but I don't think we need to blow it all up, we can make a couple moves here and there to get younger and still compete for a WS.

kidmccarthy
11-12-2008, 10:22 PM
We really dont need to worry about Thome next year either, I think this is his last year with us. He is good to hit 35 hr's with 90 rbi's just about every year, and this should be no exception if he stays healthy. We probably lose Dye this year and that leaves PK. I can live with him as our DH for 3 years.

hi im skot
11-12-2008, 10:24 PM
How do I know if I'm a "true" White Sox fan? Is there a Wikipedia article or something I can reference?

WhiteSoxFan84
11-12-2008, 10:25 PM
Love the responses so far.
But just remember, trading Konero/Thome/Dye would mean trading away 90 home runs from just last season. So it's not to easy "just trading away the big 3", who will replace their production? We have NOBODY ready to come up now and hit 30 home runs.

WhiteSoxFan84
11-12-2008, 10:26 PM
How do I know if I'm a "true" White Sox fan? Is there a Wikipedia article or something I can reference?

Much like "office crime rates", "true white sox fan" doesn't have a wikipedia entry.

btrain929
11-12-2008, 10:27 PM
I don't think as long as KW is the GM here that he will ever go on a full-out rebuilding mode.

FedEx227
11-12-2008, 10:28 PM
I sorta like what we're doing now, infusing young guys into a winning team.

As much as I'd love to rebuild and get a ton of youngsters, it's a tough step to make and it's not necessary in baseball. With some solid drafts and good teaching in the minors you can really pseudo-rebuild.

thomas35forever
11-12-2008, 10:36 PM
I think the more homer-happy players we can dump, the better. Shopping Konerko, Swisher, or Dye would at least be an indicator that we're trying to get to the next level. A couple of young fast guys would indicate that we're doing our best to go back to the small-ball style of play. I don't know where the '08 team would have gone without a few of those homer guys, but if Quentin, Ramirez, Floyd, Danks, etc. are the cornerstones of the future, we can be very dangerous. We just need to surround them with the right players.

LoveYourSuit
11-12-2008, 11:01 PM
I think building with young pitching as we have with Danks and Gavin is the way to go. If we can make one move this offseason which can add us a guy like that at the expense of a veteran I would be all for it.


I honestly don't fear losing power hitters because to me it appears anyone who puts on a Sox unifrom these days and plays at the Cell is capable of hitting 20+. You look at Alexei and there is no way you would have told me in Spring training he would hit over 20. You look at Swisher who just sucked all year, and he came out with 24.

Build with starting pitching and go from there. Offensively we can plug guys and make it go. I do think that a capable lead off hitter with wheels would be nice too, but starting pitching is the key.

btrain929
11-12-2008, 11:03 PM
One move I'm curious to see how it develops is Thome's future after '09. Based on his '08 stats, he's not done for. Taking his power numbers and his left-handed thread out of the lineup would be a big blow to the team. With him having maybe only a few more years left in the tank (2-3 years max?), and him being comfortable playing for his hometown team, I'm sure he doesn't wanna change teams every year on 1 year deals until he retires. I wonder if it's possible if Thome and the team could agree on a perpetual option every year ala Tim Wakefield in BOS. A 5-7 million dollar option every year as long as we want him and as long as he wants to be here and can be productive. I doubt he'd wanna go play for another team and deal with that hassle just to make an extra million or 2.

LoveYourSuit
11-12-2008, 11:14 PM
One move I'm curious to see how it develops is Thome's future after '09. Based on his '08 stats, he's not done for. Taking his power numbers and his left-handed thread out of the lineup would be a big blow to the team. With him having maybe only a few more years left in the tank (2-3 years max?), and him being comfortable playing for his hometown team, I'm sure he doesn't wanna change teams every year on 1 year deals until he retires. I wonder if it's possible if Thome and the team could agree on a perpetual option every year ala Tim Wakefield in BOS. A 5-7 million dollar option every year as long as we want him and as long as he wants to be here and can be productive. I doubt he'd wanna go play for another team and deal with that hassle just to make an extra million or 2.


Him hitting 600 here would be very special and more than likely put him in a Sox uniform for the Hall of Fame.

Lundind1
11-12-2008, 11:35 PM
Love the responses so far.
But just remember, trading Konero/Thome/Dye would mean trading away 90 home runs from just last season. So it's not to easy "just trading away the big 3", who will replace their production? We have NOBODY ready to come up now and hit 30 home runs.

But they also strike out a majority of the time when a base hit would score 1 or 2 runs. That seemed to be a huge problem with this team this year. Again the all or nothing attitude is something that can be solved over time. I do vote no more station to station hitting.

I am an option A kinda guy right now. Most good teams will find themselves making small changes over time and being contenders year after year. One example that I would like to cite is the fact that the Angels are always in the thick of it. Despite the fact that they have had challenges by the A's and the Mariners, they seem to develop the right mix of minor leaguers and sign the correct free agents as well as make the right trades. I am not a big fan of a total overhaul. Too costly IMO to the fan base and for the organization's efforts. Small changes add to big results. Look at our offseason in 07-08. Who knew and for that matter who will ever know. All you can do is play the percentages correctly and gamble just a bit.

Nellie_Fox
11-12-2008, 11:36 PM
Him hitting 600 here would be very special and more than likely put him in a Sox uniform for the Hall of Fame.First, I don't believe that would put him in a Sox cap for his HOF plaque. He still did most of his damage as an Indian. Second, having players who really did not make their name as a Sox player wear a Sox cap to the HOF doesn't do anything for me. It's too much like the Marlins trying to get Boggs to wear their cap; it seems sad and desperate.

MrT27
11-13-2008, 12:08 AM
Option A. I'll take my chances with the team we have now. All we need is to catch some lightening in the bottle with some guys like in 05' and we are competing for a WS again. While rebuilding there is no guarantee we will even be as good as we are now let alone a WS contender.

LoveYourSuit
11-13-2008, 12:20 AM
First, I don't believe that would put him in a Sox cap for his HOF plaque. He still did most of his damage as an Indian. Second, having players who really did not make their name as a Sox player wear a Sox cap to the HOF doesn't do anything for me. It's too much like the Marlins trying to get Boggs to wear their cap; it seems sad and desperate.


I hope because of the pitiful treatment he has received from Indian fans, MLB does the right thing and puts him in the hall wearing a Sox hat. This will be his 4th season with us and if he plays a 5th here and hits 600, why not.


A guy like Thome who has done so much good for the coummunity and the game, that's the type of guy I cheer for and would make it extra special to have him wear our hat in the hall.

voodoochile
11-13-2008, 12:31 AM
I want to compete every year. I see no point in trading a guy like Pierzynski for example.

I think KW can indeed get both younger and stronger. He did it last year and there is talent to be traded that could allow him to to it again this year, but either way, next year tons of money opens up. Contreras, Thome (he ain't playing here a 5th year LYS. No way the Sox pick up that $15M option) and Dye all come off the books. That's gonna free up ~ $30M right there and the Sox already dropped $20M so far this year (though that money will probably get spent).

Because the Sox aren't saddled with any seriously long contracts, there is always money turning over and that's what makes it possible to both compete and get younger or if the timing is right, sign a few late prime veterans to put the team over the top (like they tried to do in 2006).

KW seems to be very good at working both sides of the equation. I trust he will continue to do so.

JB98
11-13-2008, 12:37 AM
Definitely Option A. Not even a choice.

I didn't come here to lose.

CWSpalehoseCWS
11-13-2008, 12:42 AM
Love the responses so far.
But just remember, trading Konero/Thome/Dye would mean trading away 90 home runs from just last season. So it's not to easy "just trading away the big 3", who will replace their production? We have NOBODY ready to come up now and hit 30 home runs.

Well, how many of those 90 were solo shots? We could definitly afford to lose one of those guys, especially if it brings speed to the lineup. Why Konerko may be the most logical, Swisher wasn't very good last year. I doubt he has another bad season, but you could say the same about Knoerko. Dye has a lot of value right now, and is going to start declining sometime soon. I just hope we trade him now in the offseason and actually get something of value, rather than hang on to him only to dump him at the deadline like we did with Iguchi.

mcfish
11-13-2008, 12:53 AM
I want to compete every year. I see no point in trading a guy like Pierzynski for example.Can we get Joe Nathan, Francisco Liriano, and Boof Bonser for him? I'd make that deal in a hearbeat!

mcfish
11-13-2008, 01:04 AM
Him hitting 600 here would be very special and more than likely put him in a Sox uniform for the Hall of Fame.He'd have to have 2 mvp-caliber seasons and a win a ring in a Sox uniform for that to even be discussed.

cws05champ
11-13-2008, 08:10 AM
Option A, no question. You have to try and win every year in this climate in Chicago. I'm not Flubsessed, but with the Cubs putting a decent team out there and ganering at a lot of attention Kenny knows that they have to put a good competative team out there not to lose market share of the casual fan or momentum that has built over the last three + years.

Plus, I want to see a winning team as much as possible.

Chez
11-13-2008, 08:17 AM
First, I don't believe that would put him in a Sox cap for his HOF plaque. He still did most of his damage as an Indian. Second, having players who really did not make their name as a Sox player wear a Sox cap to the HOF doesn't do anything for me. It's too much like the Marlins trying to get Boggs to wear their cap; it seems sad and
desperate.

I agree with you, Nellie (though it was the D. Rays, not the Marlins for Boggs). I think the HOF now has the final say in which cap each newly enshrined member will wear to prevent this kind of stuff.

hi im skot
11-13-2008, 09:26 AM
Much like "office crime rates", "true white sox fan" doesn't have a wikipedia entry.

This is the best possible response.

Well played!

:cool:

NLaloosh
11-13-2008, 09:54 AM
Over the years Kenny Williams has taken me to the woodshed and schooled me.

He IS capable of doing some "re-building" and competing for a World Series champiionship at the same time.

I know that not everything that he does will work out but he has proven to me that he is an excellent GM and I have faith in his abilities.

Last off-season proved a great deal to me when I believed that this organization's talent at both the major and minor league levels was so low as to mandate a complete re-building effort.

I was wrong. As we stand here today, after KW made some wondeful moves and acquiitions over the past year, the Sox have an excellent big league team and a pretty decent and improving minor league system

GO KENNY WILLIAMS!

Nellie_Fox
11-13-2008, 10:39 AM
I agree with you, Nellie (though it was the D. Rays, not the Marlins for Boggs). I think the HOF now has the final say in which cap each newly enshrined member will wear to prevent this kind of stuff.You are correct on both points. I should have checked the D-Rays/Marlins before I posted.

khan
11-13-2008, 10:41 AM
Love the responses so far.
But just remember, trading Konero/Thome/Dye would mean trading away 90 home runs from just last season. So it's not to easy "just trading away the big 3", who will replace their production?
Agreed. Thome's value as a lefty power bat cannot be understated. Looking at the scrubs' failure in the playoffs, where their abject lack of lefty power added to their demise, I'd be reluctant to "get rid of the big 3."

Undoubtedly, one or two of these three will go this year. But ALL three might be too much, particularly as Thome hitting from the left side adds to the team's balance.

We have NOBODY ready to come up now and hit 30 home runs.
Oooh!! I know this one!! We have The Golden God in Josh Fields!! He hit 20 HR a few years ago, right? He's the answer!!!

Lundind1
11-13-2008, 11:37 AM
We might be pretty close with some players. Has anyone thought that we could do pretty good with option A. That is the way that things have done. Last year was a lesson in heart. There were so many things that did go wrong with injuries and guys crapping the bed. This team going forward should contend year after year.

With this good mixture, what happens to all these decent draft picks we have recently?

voodoochile
11-13-2008, 11:46 AM
We might be pretty close with some players. Has anyone thought that we could do pretty good with option A. That is the way that things have done. Last year was a lesson in heart. There were so many things that did go wrong with injuries and guys crapping the bed. This team going forward should contend year after year.

With this good mixture, what happens to all these decent draft picks we have recently?

First, having too much talent is never a bad thing.

Second...

:KW:
"Hi, if you haven't heard of me by now, my name is Kaaaraaaazy Kenny! I run the best prospect emporium in baseball. Got a stud OF you just can't sign or don't have the talent to surround him with? Got a LHP with a nasty slider and plus fastball but no chance at the playoffs? Are you a low budget no hope team or just a big player having a down year? Have we got a deal for you. Everything MUST go! We got the hottest prospects! SS, 2B, LHP, OF and all of it is at rock bottom prices and everything MUST GO! So stop on by, you don't want to make a run at the playoffs this year? We can help you out..."

Lundind1
11-13-2008, 11:51 AM
I just would rather not become the training ground for some major talent. I hate the idea of the "one that got away". It does happen everywhere, just look at TCQ. At least this time it has worked out for us.

Krazy Kenny.....lol...:rolling:.

thedudeabides
11-13-2008, 12:30 PM
As long as Kenny is at the helm option B isn't really an option, and rightfully so. I think option A is what every successfull organization is trying to do. Keep winning and incorporate youth into the mix.

I like where the organization is heading and have full faith in the current management. It's good to see the farm system heading in the right direction. It's never a guarantee that your farm will produce studs year after year. Where it can be consistently usefull, and where I hope the Sox can start improving, is the ability to plug guys into holes. Even in backup spots and particularly the bullpen.

It would be nice to start bringing our own players along instead of spending $5 million on backups like Juan, or $2.5 million on Toby Hall. Developing more option internally for the bullpen instead of $4-6 million contracts on the Dotels and Linebrinks. Even the McDougals. I know your going to have to do this from time to time, but it's where a farm system can really come in handy. This also frees up more money when the Sox want to make a big splash. Or it doesn't hurt as bad when you have to eat a contract like Contreras. I think this is where the Sox are headed and it is refreshing to see.

russ99
11-13-2008, 12:32 PM
As long as Kenny is at the helm option B isn't really an option, and rightfully so. I think option A is what every successfull organization is trying to do. Keep winning and incorporate youth into the mix.

I like where the organization is heading and have full faith in the current management. It's good to see the farm system heading in the right direction. It's never a guarantee that your farm will produce studs year after year. Where it can be consistently usefull, and where I hope the Sox can start improving, is the ability to plug guys into holes. Even in backup spots and particularly the bullpen.

It would be nice to start bringing our own players along instead of spending $5 million on backups like Juan, or $2.5 million on Toby Hall. Developing more option internally for the bullpen instead of $4-6 million contracts on the Dotels and Linebrinks. Even the McDougals. I know your going to have to do this from time to time, but it's where a farm system can really come in handy. This also frees up more money when the Sox want to make a big splash. Or it doesn't hurt as bad when you have to eat a contract like Contreras. I think this is where the Sox are headed and it is refreshing to see.

Our position player core other than the big three is pretty young and talented. It's how well Kenny can replace the big three the next couple of seasons that will determine whether or not the Sox compete 3-5 years down the line over any kind of perceived rebuilding or reloading movement. Hopefully, we have one of the three already in Quentin.

Domeshot17
11-13-2008, 12:35 PM
Option B is not really an option. Putting too much stock on Kenny and the Boys to draft well and develop guys, It has not happened yet, so I will take a wait and see approach with Buddy Bell before I get excited. This draft was okay, we did not do bad, but we also did not even have one of the better drafts out there. WAYYYYYYY too much stock is being put in some guys to be superstars. Truth is, unless Beckham lives up to his hype, this will probably be a very average class. We still have one of the 5-10 worst farm systems in baseball.

russ99
11-13-2008, 12:37 PM
Option B is not really an option. Putting too much stock on Kenny and the Boys to draft well and develop guys, It has not happened yet, so I will take a wait and see approach with Buddy Bell before I get excited. This draft was okay, we did not do bad, but we also did not even have one of the better drafts out there. WAYYYYYYY too much stock is being put in some guys to be superstars. Truth is, unless Beckham lives up to his hype, this will probably be a very average class. We still have one of the 5-10 worst farm systems in baseball.

It takes 3-5 years for a "system rebuilding" to bear any real fruit, other than a few first-rounders who are can't miss anyway. Since Kenny revamped both last offseason and this offseason, I can't say how far we're into the 3-5 years right now.

raven1
11-13-2008, 01:00 PM
Aside from Option A being the only path either KW or the fan base will accept, most of the "rebuilding" or trade ideas involving Konerko/Thome/Dye seriously overestimates how much we could realistically get in return for them. Although I expect that one of the 3 or Nick Swisher will get traded this offseason as part of a package to bring in a specific player that KW is targeting (whoever that turns out to be), a more extensive overhaul doesn't make sense.

What we realistically can expect to get in return is going to be less valuable to the team than even the 1 season of reduced production we can reasonably expect from these guys, 2 of whom the Sox won't be contractually on the hook for anyways past 2009. The exception may be Swisher - although KW will shop the older guys, Nick's relatively young age & longer term contract make him the most likely "extra" veteran for the Sox to trade to get what they're looking for.

With a solid rotation (only 1 open slot with several good options to fill), a proven back-end of the bullpen, young players already in place to fill the current open positions (Fields, Getz/Nix, Owens/Anderson) and the flexibility of one "extra" veteran player to use for trade to fill any gaps that do appear, the Sox are better positioned to contend to win it all than all but maybe 2 or 3 other AL teams.

Sox4ever77
11-13-2008, 01:44 PM
I think this is almost an age question. If you're older, say 35 and above, you have seen a lot of bad Sox teams, lived through the White Flag trade, etc. So rebuilding isn't something you really want, you've seen enough.

If you're under 30 you have seen mostly good teams and of course seen the WS Trophy come to the Southside.