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Rockabilly
11-07-2008, 12:11 PM
A NY Mets beat writer I believed his name was Kevin Dahdoff was talking about the Mets off season plans on XM radio. He said that KW and Omar have discussed a trade that has Beltran coming to the Sox..

He also said that Omar is interested in Jenks and Vazquez..

I am not to sure if the deal is even close but maybe this is the block buster that Steve Stone was talking about..

pythons007
11-07-2008, 12:13 PM
A NY Mets beat writer I believed his name was Kevin Dahdoff was talking about the Mets off season plans on XM radio. He said that KW and Omar have discussed a trade that has Beltran coming to the Sox..

He also said that Omar is interested in Jenks and Vazquez..

I am not to sure if the deal is even close but maybe this is the block buster that Steve Stone was talking about..

That would be a huge hit to the payroll.

chisoxmike
11-07-2008, 12:14 PM
Isn't Beltran another one of those guys KW has always had his eyes on? I may be wrong.

He's got some speed and he's a hell of a run producer.

We'll see...

hellview
11-07-2008, 12:14 PM
I don't see this happening at all. Would Beltran even waive his NTC to approve at trade to Chicago.

Throw in the fact that Beltran is making a **** ton of money.

whitesox901
11-07-2008, 12:14 PM
Another ex-royal on the White Sox

Rockabilly
11-07-2008, 12:14 PM
That would be a huge hit to the payroll.


I am sure KW would want cash in return as well.

DumpJerry
11-07-2008, 12:16 PM
I don't see this happening at all. Would Beltran even waive his NTC to approve at trade to Chicago.

Throw in the fact that Beltran is making a **** ton of money.
Why wouldn't he? He gets out of the fishbowl of New York, on team that actually makes the postseason and out of the shadow of the Yankees.

Jenks part of the deal? That is a deal breaker in my book.

The money? Meh. It'll get worked out if the money is the issue.

Eddo144
11-07-2008, 12:17 PM
If Kenny can somehow acquire one of the two best CF in baseball (the other being Sizemore) for an innings eater and a closer, I'll vote for him in the next election. That would be awesome. Screw payroll. Beltran is and excellent hitter and excellent in the field.

chisoxmike
11-07-2008, 12:19 PM
Why wouldn't he? He gets out of the fishbowl of New York, on team that actually makes the postseason and out of the shadow of the Yankees.


To play on a team that also doesn't make the playoffs consistently and plays in the shadow of the Cubs?

Thome25
11-07-2008, 12:20 PM
Could this be the shocker that Steve Stone was talking about?

Eddo144
11-07-2008, 12:21 PM
Jenks part of the deal? That is a deal breaker in my book.
You'd rather have 60-70 innings of a very good closer than over 1000 innings of an upper-echelon CF?

Thome25
11-07-2008, 12:21 PM
To play on a team that also doesn't make the playoffs consistently and plays in the shadow of the Cubs?

We make the playoffs more than the Mets. The shadow issue is irrelevant if you ask me.

hi im skot
11-07-2008, 12:22 PM
With Jenks involved? Hmm, that's tough...

Thome25
11-07-2008, 12:22 PM
Why wouldn't he? He gets out of the fishbowl of New York, on team that actually makes the postseason and out of the shadow of the Yankees.

Jenks part of the deal? That is a deal breaker in my book.

The money? Meh. It'll get worked out if the money is the issue.

Deal Jenks and sign Fuentes from the Rockies.

chisoxmike
11-07-2008, 12:23 PM
Deal Jenks and sign Fuentes from the Rockies.

:o:

munchman33
11-07-2008, 12:24 PM
You'd rather have 60-70 innings of a very good closer than over 1000 innings of an upper-echelon CF?

It isn't so much that as it is replacing that 60-70 innings of very good closer isn't that easy. You really want Dotel closing games? He's our next best option.

munchman33
11-07-2008, 12:25 PM
Deal Jenks and sign Fuentes from the Rockies.

So not only are way paying for Beltran, we're gonna add $10+ million a year for Fuentes.

All of a sudden we're the Yankees.

hi im skot
11-07-2008, 12:25 PM
It isn't so much that as it is replacing that 60-70 innings of very good closer isn't that easy. You really want Dotel closing games? He's our next best option.

I'd give Thornton the nod over Dotel, but I'd still (obviously) rather have Jenks.

Rockabilly
11-07-2008, 12:25 PM
I hope that KW can get Beltran.. Would hate to see Jenks go though..

maybe we can make a smaller deal with the Marlins and get Kevin Gregg to be our closer

munchman33
11-07-2008, 12:26 PM
maybe we can make a smaller deal with the Marlins and get Kevin Gregg to be our closer

Now that makes more sense.

Thome25
11-07-2008, 12:27 PM
The mets may not want Jenks....on mlb.com there's an article that says they've been in contact with Brian Fuentes' agent.

munchman33
11-07-2008, 12:28 PM
I'd give Thornton the nod over Dotel, but I'd still (obviously) rather have Jenks.

You don't give the closers role to non-closers in the offseason and expect to compete. Nothing against Thornton, I think he could do it. But you never know with these things. You could end up ruining the guy.

mzh
11-07-2008, 12:32 PM
You don't give the closers role to non-closers in the offseason and expect to compete. Nothing against Thornton, I think he could do it. But you never know with these things. You could end up ruining the guy.

Does anybody remember around the all-star break when both Jenks and Linebrink were out? At first we gave Linebrink the closing job, and he gave up a walk-off shot to Aramis Ramirez. We tried Octavio Dotel, who was as inconsistent as ever and was 1 for 5 in save chances. Matt Thornton had his best year in the majors this year, and he was 1 for 6 in save opps. If we are going to get rid of Jenks, you might as well pick up K-Rod along the way...

munchman33
11-07-2008, 12:33 PM
Does anybody remember around the all-star break when both Jenks and Linebrink were out? At first we gave Linebrink the closing job, and he gave up a walk-off shot to Aramis Ramirez. We tried Octavio Dotel, who was as incosistant as ever. Matt Thornton had his best year in the majors this year, and he was 1 for 6 in save opps. If we are going to get rid of Jenks, you might as well pick up K-Rod along the way...

That's why I said Dotel. He's the only in house option that's been a closer (and been successful).

Eddo144
11-07-2008, 12:35 PM
It isn't so much that as it is replacing that 60-70 innings of very good closer isn't that easy. You really want Dotel closing games? He's our next best option.
So you really think that Anderson or Taveras plus Jenks is better than Beltran plus Thornton or Dotel?

Remember how the Sox pulled Bobby off the scrap heap? Closers are replaceable (and also very inconsistent year-to-year).

CashMan
11-07-2008, 12:38 PM
So you really think that Anderson or Taveras plus Jenks is better than Beltran plus Thornton or Dotel?

Remember how the Sox pulled Bobby off the scrap heap? Closers are replaceable (and also very inconsistent year-to-year).


This is true. Don't the Sox have a prospect in thee minors who had like 35 saves? And, has Kenny ever made a trade for someone who makes a decent amount of money, and not had that club throw money into the deal? Other than Kenny acquiring a bunch of guys who throw heat the one year, he usually makes decent trades. In Kenny I trust!

munchman33
11-07-2008, 12:39 PM
So you really think that Anderson or Taveras plus Jenks is better than Beltran plus Thornton or Dotel?

Remember how the Sox pulled Bobby off the scrap heap? Closers are replaceable (and also very inconsistent year-to-year).

No, of course not. But I'm also not going to assume we won't have 20+ blown bullpen saves if we don't upgrade closer.

Bobby wasn't exactly pulled off the scrap heap and then closing out ball games. We picked him up because he was released due to injuries and personal problems, converted him to a reliever, and he grew into the role.

Closers come from all over, but good ones are not easy to find.

doublem23
11-07-2008, 12:40 PM
Remember how the Sox pulled Bobby off the scrap heap? Closers are replaceable (and also very inconsistent year-to-year).

Closers are replaceable and cheap, but elite closers are very, very hard to find.

Rockabilly
11-07-2008, 12:40 PM
Hopefully our lineup next year looks like this

1 Chone Figgins 3B
2 Orlando Hudson 2B
3 Carlos Quentin LF
4 Carlos Beltran CF
5 Jermaine Dye RF
6 Jim Thome DH
7 Nick Swisher 1B
8 AJ Pierzynski C
9 Alexei Ramirez SS

we would have a deadly lineup next year..

mzh
11-07-2008, 12:41 PM
That's why I said Dotel. He's the only in house option that's been a closer (and been successful).

He was only 1 for 5 in save opportunities. He is over the hill as a good closer, and that is why Linebrink sets up Jenks, and not Dotel.

Thome25
11-07-2008, 12:41 PM
Creating one hole to fill another is not a smart move.....I take back my comment about trading Jenks.

munchman33
11-07-2008, 12:45 PM
He was only 1 for 5 in save opportunities. He is over the hill as a good closer, and that is why Linebrink sets up Jenks, and not Dotel.

I think if he had the role for a year, he'd fair a little better. Not elite, but probably something like 32 of 40.

I am NOT proposing we give him that role.

veeter
11-07-2008, 12:46 PM
I don't like dealing Jenks at all. But Kenny's not stupid. He'd have, at least in his mind, a suitable replacement, I'm sure. But if that replacement fails, we're in trouble. Losing games in the eighth or ninth inning are the toughest to take. They can decimate teams. Bobby's been so freakin' solid. Plus he's post-season tested.

Rockabilly
11-07-2008, 12:50 PM
what would be a fair deal for both teams...

PorkChopExpress
11-07-2008, 12:52 PM
They may be in the market for a 1B, too. I'm not sure if they're in on Tex, but if not, maybe Swisher or PK.

Rockabilly
11-07-2008, 12:54 PM
They may be in the market for a 1B, too. I'm not sure if they're in on Tex, but if not, maybe Swisher or PK.


they picked up the option on Delgado..

mzh
11-07-2008, 12:55 PM
My 2009 White Sox Lineup
2B Roberts
3B Figgins
RF Quentin
LF M. Ramirez
DH Thome
SS A. Ramirez
1B Swisher
C Pierzynski
CF Anderson



About your 2008 White Sox lineup: Is that supposed to be real? You can't seriously believe the sox will be able to pick up Figgins Roberts and ManRam? What happens to our pitching? It's just not happening.

Eddo144
11-07-2008, 12:55 PM
Look at WPA (win probability added).

Example: game 163 against the Twins. When Jenks came in, it was the the bottom of the ninth, up by one run, with no outs and no one on base. In such a situation, teams have won 82.5% of all games over the years. When Bobby left the game, the Sox had a 100% chance of winning. Therefore, he gets .175 WPA for the game (he increased the chances of winning by 17.5%).

Over the course of 2008, Bobby had 3.47 WPA. That's very good. Also note though, that closers have excellent opportunities to gain WPA. Bobby was able to get .175 for getting three outs. Hitters don't get as many high-leverage opportunities.

For 2008, Carlos Beltran had 5.02 WPA. Not drastically ahead of Bobby, but ahead nonetheless. And WPA doesn't take into account Beltran's stellar defense.

I love Bobby. He's one of the most underrated closers in baseball. But, by nature, closers are not as valuable as centerfielders. Giving up a top-five closer for a top-five CF is a good trade.

(All numbers take from www.fangraphs.com (http://www.fangraphs.com).)

veeter
11-07-2008, 01:02 PM
I want Kenny to stick with the peripheral players he's so damn good at sniffing out.

btrain929
11-07-2008, 01:03 PM
From a salary standpoint, it wouldn't be THAT huge of an addition. Beltran makes 18.5 mil, Vazquez makes 11.5 mil. That's a difference of 7 mil. But Jenks is hitting arbitration for the first time, and his salary should climb from 550,000 to anywhere from 4-6 milion. Having a legit GG All Star CF under contract for the next 3 years would be a great thing. He is a great combination of power and speed. I think it'd be worth the risk to trade Bobby for him. The question is, do they have a CF that could step in to take over? Because if they expect us to throw BA in, then they can just forget it.

slavko
11-07-2008, 01:05 PM
Look at WPA (win probability added).

Example: game 163 against the Twins. When Jenks came in, it was the the bottom of the ninth, up by one run, with no outs and no one on base. In such a situation, teams have won 82.5% of all games over the years. When Bobby left the game, the Sox had a 100% chance of winning. Therefore, he gets .175 WPA for the game (he increased the chances of winning by 17.5%).

Over the course of 2008, Bobby had 3.47 WPA. That's very good. Also note though, that closers have excellent opportunities to gain WPA. Bobby was able to get .175 for getting three outs. Hitters don't get as many high-leverage opportunities.

For 2008, Carlos Beltran had 5.02 WPA. Not drastically ahead of Bobby, but ahead nonetheless. And WPA doesn't take into account Beltran's stellar defense.

I love Bobby. He's one of the most underrated closers in baseball. But, by nature, closers are not as valuable as centerfielders. Giving up a top-five closer for a top-five CF is a good trade.

(All numbers take from www.fangraphs.com.) (http://www.fangraphs.com.))

You're a pretty smart guy. But...don't confuse me with logic.

veeter
11-07-2008, 01:06 PM
From a salary standpoint, it wouldn't be THAT huge of an addition. Beltran makes 18.5 mil, Vazquez makes 11.5 mil. That's a difference of 7 mil. But Jenks is hitting arbitration for the first time, and his salary should climb from 550,000 to anywhere from 4-6 milion. Having a legit GG All Star CF under contract for the next 3 years would be a great thing. He is a great combination of power and speed. I think it'd be worth the risk to trade Bobby for him. The question is, do they have a CF that could step in to take over? Because if they expect us to throw BA in, then they can just forget it. That would smell like the Keith Foulke thing. Bobby's worth it. Pay the man.

mzh
11-07-2008, 01:06 PM
Just a thought, but has anybody thought of the possible blockbuster of Jermaine Dye + Josh Fields for David Wright? I dont know how we would fill the RF position, but it's just a fantasy.

Rockabilly
11-07-2008, 01:08 PM
From a salary standpoint, it wouldn't be THAT huge of an addition. Beltran makes 18.5 mil, Vazquez makes 11.5 mil. That's a difference of 7 mil. But Jenks is hitting arbitration for the first time, and his salary should climb from 550,000 to anywhere from 4-6 milion. Having a legit GG All Star CF under contract for the next 3 years would be a great thing. He is a great combination of power and speed. I think it'd be worth the risk to trade Bobby for him. The question is, do they have a CF that could step in to take over? Because if they expect us to throw BA in, then they can just forget it.


The Mets have 2 good young OF prospects in Murphy and Evans... They need a lot of pitching..

PorkChopExpress
11-07-2008, 01:09 PM
My 2009 White Sox Lineup
2B Roberts
3B Figgins
RF Quentin
LF M. Ramirez
DH Thome
SS A. Ramirez
1B Swisher
C Pierzynski
CF Anderson



About your 2008 White Sox lineup: Is that supposed to be real? You can't seriously believe the sox will be able to pick up Figgins Roberts and ManRam? What happens to our pitching? It's just not happening.

I haven't put a whole lot of thought into it, but I figure we could unload Dye for some top prospects, maybe make the PK for Figgins rumor a reality finally, spin the prospects we get for Dye mixed with some of our own for Roberts and sign Manny as a FA. Our pitching stays the same. I know it's more like play station thinking, but that's why it's in pink.

hellview
11-07-2008, 01:09 PM
Just a thought, but has anybody thought of the possible blockbuster of Jermaine Dye + Josh Fields for David Wright? I dont know how we would fill the RF position, but it's just a fantasy.

Hahahahahahahahaha...I just choked on my sandwich.

Rocky Soprano
11-07-2008, 01:13 PM
Just a thought, but has anybody thought of the possible blockbuster of Jermaine Dye + Josh Fields for David Wright? I dont know how we would fill the RF position, but it's just a fantasy.

Do you HONESTLY think that is a fair trade? That doesn't even get done on the X Box.

btrain929
11-07-2008, 01:19 PM
The Mets have 2 good young OF prospects in Murphy and Evans... They need a lot of pitching..

In the minors, Evans played 1B and Murhpy played 3B. If Evans plays OF in the bigs, it'll be a corner position. Same for Murphy, but he might be more destined for 2B. I highly doubt they'll throw either of them in CF.

SoxNation05
11-07-2008, 01:21 PM
Vazquez and Swisher for Beltran and someone? I am pretty baffled here. I don't see why either teams would trade prospects either.

pythons007
11-07-2008, 01:22 PM
Just a thought, but has anybody thought of the possible blockbuster of Jermaine Dye + Josh Fields for David Wright? I dont know how we would fill the RF position, but it's just a fantasy.


:rolling:

Minaya would surely get fired for even mentioning Wright or Reyes in a dream he had the night before!

However Wright, Reyes, Beltran for BA, Wise, and Logan!

SoxNation05
11-07-2008, 01:23 PM
In the minors, Evans played 1B and Murhpy played 3B. If Evans plays OF in the bigs, it'll be a corner position. Same for Murphy, but he might be more destined for 2B. I highly doubt they'll throw either of them in CF.
Murphy is on the market from what I've read. (mlbtraderumors.com)
I doubt he's involved because he is a 2B and KW wouldn't want someone who is inexperienced.

mzh
11-07-2008, 01:25 PM
However Wright, Reyes, Beltran for BA, Wise, and Logan!
:rolling::rolling::rolling::rolling::rolling::roll ing::rolling::rolling::rolling:

and people laugh at dye for wright...

whitesox901
11-07-2008, 01:26 PM
Maybe this has something to do with the Mets being interested in Javy

Javy & ____ for Beltran? I dunno though, just a guess or thought

btrain929
11-07-2008, 01:27 PM
Maybe this has something to do with the Mets being interested in Javy

Javy & ____ for Beltran? I dunno though, just a guess or thought

Yeah, Jenks.

SoxNation05
11-07-2008, 01:31 PM
Yeah, Jenks.
EW no.

Swisher and Vazquez for Castillo and Beltran and some cash
I don't want Castillo but I have no idea who else it could be. Maybe the Mets are trying to free up money for K-Rod?

NLaloosh
11-07-2008, 01:39 PM
A NY Mets beat writer I believed his name was Kevin Dahdoff was talking about the Mets off season plans on XM radio. He said that KW and Omar have discussed a trade that has Beltran coming to the Sox..

He also said that Omar is interested in Jenks and Vazquez..

I am not to sure if the deal is even close but maybe this is the block buster that Steve Stone was talking about..
\
That's pretty funny. I brought up this deal on my own about a week ago.

Ofcourse everyone blasted it. I'm not sure that I'd wantthe Sox to do it. Beltran only fills one hole. I would hope that if the Sox traded both of those guys that they could fill 2 or 3.

oeo
11-07-2008, 01:46 PM
You guys have to remember that acquiring a guy like Beltran means we can probably deal Swisher and/or Dye, as well, in order to fill any holes we may be creating. Acquiring Beltran would not be the end of the offseason.

I love Jenks, but Carlos Beltran...damn. Hard to pass up.

BTW, something tells me BA would be a part of this deal.

khan
11-07-2008, 01:51 PM
Isn't Beltran 31 or 32 years old? And under contract until 2012, or until he's 35 or 36 years old, with a LOT of years under his belt.

Trading away Vazquez and Jenks, PLUS taking on a boatload of salary for a lot of years, PLUS getting older at the position doesn't make sense to me.

I don't think I'd do this deal, as we'd be looking at a bad contract in 2010 and beyond. I wouldn't necessarily comlpain about it if KW pulled this one off, but it wouldn't be my first choice were I GM.

EDIT: I recognize Beltran's greatness, but he's also a bit too old and expensive for my tastes.

btrain929
11-07-2008, 01:56 PM
Isn't Beltran 31 or 32 years old? And under contract until 2012, or until he's 35 or 36 years old, with a LOT of years under his belt.

Trading away Vazquez and Jenks, PLUS taking on a boatload of salary for a lot of years, PLUS getting older at the position doesn't make sense to me.

I don't think I'd do this deal, as we'd be looking at a bad deal in 2010 and beyond. I wouldn't necessarily comlpain about it if KW pulled this one off, but it wouldn't be my first choice were I GM.

EDIT: I recognize Beltran's greatness, but he's also a bit too old and expensive for my tastes.

He's 31, but he'll be 32 by Opening Day. We were willing to give 5 years to Hunter at the same age, and he's not half as good as Beltran, who's only signed through 2011. By getting rid of Javy + Jenks money, it'd only be adding about 3 mil to payroll. I do it in a heartbeat and either trade for a lesser closer or go with Dotel/Thornton.

oeo
11-07-2008, 01:58 PM
Isn't Beltran 31 or 32 years old? And under contract until 2012, or until he's 35 or 36 years old, with a LOT of years under his belt.

Trading away Vazquez and Jenks, PLUS taking on a boatload of salary for a lot of years, PLUS getting older at the position doesn't make sense to me.

I don't think I'd do this deal, as we'd be looking at a bad contract in 2010 and beyond. I wouldn't necessarily comlpain about it if KW pulled this one off, but it wouldn't be my first choice were I GM.

EDIT: I recognize Beltran's greatness, but he's also a bit too old and expensive for my tastes.

Why is 31 old?

SoxNation05
11-07-2008, 01:59 PM
He's 31, but he'll be 32 by Opening Day. We were willing to give 5 years to Hunter at the same age, and he's not half as good as Beltran, who's only signed through 2011. By getting rid of Javy + Jenks money, it'd only be adding about 3 mil to payroll. I do it in a heartbeat and either trade for a lesser closer or go with Dotel/Thornton.
I think if this deal happens, which it never would, we have a **** load of work left to do afterwords.
Back of the bullpen
Back of the rotation
2B and 3B

btrain929
11-07-2008, 02:00 PM
I think if this deal happens, which it never would, we have a **** load of work left to do afterwords.
Back of the bullpen
Back of the rotation
2B and 3B

Agreed. No offseason will ever be a "1 and done" for KW.

khan
11-07-2008, 02:04 PM
He's 31, but he'll be 32 by Opening Day. We were willing to give 5 years to Hunter at the same age, and he's not half as good as Beltran, who's only signed through 2011.
Oh, I agree with all of this.

By getting rid of Javy + Jenks money, it'd only be adding about 3 mil to payroll. I do it in a heartbeat and either trade for a lesser closer or go with Dotel/Thornton.
And at the same time, Beltran is a player that completes a contender. By removing Vazquez from a rotation that would then have only 3 MLB-vetted SPs, which would hurt, and I don't like Dotel/Thornton as closer.

My view is that in totality, such a trade probably wouldn't move the team CLOSER to a World Series in the near term. This, because of the holes opened up by losing Vazquez/Jenks, and not having suitable replacements in the 40 man or elsewhere.

In the longer term, getting older and more expensive at CF usually ends up poorly for a team. I'd rather have a CF closer to 27 or 28 than one who will be 32 on Opening Day.

Of course, if KW can make another move [after a proposed Vazquez/Jenks for Beltran deal] to find 2 SPs for the rotation PLUS a closer, AND find some further depth in the bullpen, all while not adding too much salary and not gutting the minor league system, I'd be all for it. But color me dubious at this point.

LoveYourSuit
11-07-2008, 02:07 PM
i love this board.... we want the best players out there but don't want to pay any money nor trade anyone of value for them.

Unreal.


Javy plus Bobby straight up for Beltran...... where do I sign.

With arbitration $$$ coming for Bobby + the money per year on Javy ... that gets you much closer to Beltran money per year.

Then if by some miracle you can push off Paulie to ANA for Figgins + other prospects now you are set at lead off and 3B. At this point, yes you can roll the dice with Getz at 2B or Fields at 3B with Figgins moving to 2B.

Money saved from Paulie - Figgins difference can be used to pick up a serviceable #4 starter.

veeter
11-07-2008, 02:08 PM
i love this board.... we want the best players out there but don't want to pay any money nor trade anyone of value for them.

Unreal.


Javy plus Bobby straight up for Beltran...... where do I sign.

With arbitration $$$ coming for Bobby + the money per year on Javy ... that gets you much closer to Beltran money per year.

Then if by some miracle you can push off Paulie to ANA for Figgins + other prospects now you are set at lead off and 3B. At this point, yes you can roll the dice with Getz at 2B or Fields at 3B with Figgins moving to 2B.

Money saved from Paulie - Figgins difference can be used to pick up a serviceable #4 starter.Who then closes?

khan
11-07-2008, 02:09 PM
Why is 31 old?

For a corner OF, no. But specifically to CF, he's at least getting old. Particularly when you consider the ages of the rest of the club.

oeo
11-07-2008, 02:11 PM
For a corner OF, no. But specifically to CF, he's at least getting old. Particularly when you consider the ages of the rest of the club.

Well, he doesn't need to play CF for the rest of his career.

We get 2-3 years of CF out of him, then move him to one of the corners.

SoxNation05
11-07-2008, 02:14 PM
Dye for Blanton and reliever
Jenks and Vazquez for Beltran
PK for Figgins

3B Figgins
1B Swisher
CF Beltran
LF Quentin
DH Thome
SS Ramirez
C Pierzynski
RF ?
2B ?

btrain929
11-07-2008, 02:17 PM
Dye for Blanton and reliever
Jenks and Vazquez for Beltran
PK for Figgins

3B Figgins
1B Swisher
CF Beltran
LF Quentin
DH Thome
SS Ramirez
C Pierzynski
RF ?
2B ?

That's a terrible return for Dye. I've never liked Blanton, so maybe that's why I feel that way. But I don't think we trade both Dye and PK. One or the other.

Craig Grebeck
11-07-2008, 02:18 PM
That's a terrible return for Dye. I've never liked Blanton, so maybe that's why I feel that way. But I don't think we trade both Dye and PK. One or the other.
Yeah, that's not the wisest of moves. Plus I'm not really sure why the Phillies would be inclined to give up a starting pitcher.

LoveYourSuit
11-07-2008, 02:19 PM
Who then closes?

First choice would be Thornton with Poreda coming up to take his spot in the pen.


CL Thornton
Set up - Linebrink
Middle - Dotel, Poreda, other.
Long - Broadway or Carrasco

khan
11-07-2008, 02:21 PM
Then if by some miracle you can push off Paulie to ANA for Figgins + other prospects now you are set at lead off and 3B.
That would be a minor miracle, IMO. Tex just might stay in LAAAAA, which would render this an impossibility.

At this point, yes you can roll the dice with Getz at 2B or Fields at 3B with Figgins moving to 2B.
Having Fields ANYWHERE other than on another team's organization in 2009 would be surrendering. He can't catch or hit for average or keep himself from striking out.

Money saved from Paulie - Figgins difference can be used to pick up a serviceable #4 starter.
Sounds great. Exactly WHO?

Remember, if Vazquez is making $11M/year, and Meche is too, and so are a whole lot of other middling SPs, then WHO?

SoxNation05
11-07-2008, 02:22 PM
that would be a minor miracle, imo. Tex just might stay in laaaaa, which would render this an impossibility.


Having fields anywhere other than on another team's organization in 2009 would be surrendering. He can't catch or hit for average or keep himself from striking out.


Sounds great. Exactly who?

Remember, if vazquez is making $11m/year, and meche is too, and so are a whole lot of other middling sps, then who?
Brad Penny!

khan
11-07-2008, 02:25 PM
Well, he doesn't need to play CF for the rest of his career.

We get 2-3 years of CF out of him, then move him to one of the corners.

Yeah, I hear what you're saying. I guess what we'd do at that point is hope that Danks develops, AND that KW keeps him, too.

Otherwise, we'll be locked into this never-ending cycle of trying to find CF/leadoff types.


And again, I wouldn't necessarily complain about a Vazquez/Jenks for Beltran move, IF KW can find the rest of the pieces this offseason, too.

...
11-07-2008, 02:25 PM
Hahahahahahahahaha...I just choked on my sandwich.

Are you sure is was a sandwich?

soxfan43
11-07-2008, 02:25 PM
Any thoughts on Grooming Poreda as a closer? Obviosuly not for next season but maybe 2010? Pay Jenks one yr in arb and then move him? From what I've read on Poreda, please correct me if I'm wrong, is he throws upper 90s gas but really doesn't have great secondary pitches. Plus with Danks and Buehrle in the rotation, I dont know if the sox would go with 3 lefties in it down the road. Just a thought.

veeter
11-07-2008, 02:27 PM
First choice would be Thornton with Poreda coming up to take his spot in the pen.


CL Thornton
Set up - Linebrink
Middle - Dotel, Poreda, other.
Long - Broadway or CarrascoBobby's been the ONE guy we could count on the last four seasons. I like Thornton but it would be a new role. The rest of that pen spells doom to me.

hellview
11-07-2008, 02:28 PM
Are you sure is was a sandwich?

Class all the way baby...

hellview
11-07-2008, 02:29 PM
Any thoughts on Grooming Poreda as a closer? Obviosuly not for next season but maybe 2010? Pay Jenks one yr in arb and then move him? From what I've read on Poreda, please correct me if I'm wrong, is he throws upper 90s gas but really doesn't have great secondary pitches. Plus with Danks and Buehrle in the rotation, I dont know if the sox would go with 3 lefties in it down the road. Just a thought.

Why would you not put 3 lefties in a rotation?

What the hells the difference between 3 lefties and 3 righties?

veeter
11-07-2008, 02:29 PM
Any thoughts on Grooming Poreda as a closer? Obviosuly not for next season but maybe 2010? Pay Jenks one yr in arb and then move him? From what I've read on Poreda, please correct me if I'm wrong, is he throws upper 90s gas but really doesn't have great secondary pitches. Plus with Danks and Buehrle in the rotation, I dont know if the sox would go with 3 lefties in it down the road. Just a thought.Closing is very, very, very hard. Guys just brush off Jenks like he's nothing. It's bordering on absurd.

btrain929
11-07-2008, 02:29 PM
Why would you not put 3 lefties in a rotation?

What the hells the difference between 3 lefties and 3 righties?

They throw with different hands, duh......

soxfan43
11-07-2008, 02:32 PM
Closing is very, very, very hard. Guys just brush off Jenks like he's nothing. It's bordering on absurd.


I'm certainly not brushing Jenks off, but if the Sox don't plan to pay him through arbitration, then why not discuss other options, if thats indeed the plan? I dont know enough about Poreda myself, but is he someone who could close down the line?

...
11-07-2008, 02:32 PM
Class all the way baby...


:thumbsup:

veeter
11-07-2008, 02:35 PM
I'm certainly not brushing Jenks off, but if the Sox don't plan to pay him through arbitration, then why not discuss other options, if thats indeed the plan? I dont know enough about Poreda myself, but is he someone who could close down the line?Poreda throws really hard. I've never seen him pitch, but I know major league hitters don't give a **** how hard you throw. He sounds raw and a long way from being the Sox closer.

btrain929
11-07-2008, 02:39 PM
I'm certainly not brushing Jenks off, but if the Sox don't plan to pay him through arbitration, then why not discuss other options, if thats indeed the plan? I dont know enough about Poreda myself, but is he someone who could close down the line?

What gives you the impression that they won't? They wouldn't be trading him to get rid of his climbing salary, they'd trade him to bring in an All Star CF.

soxfan43
11-07-2008, 02:51 PM
What gives you the impression that they won't? They wouldn't be trading him to get rid of his climbing salary, they'd trade him to bring in an All Star CF.

Not saying they will, but there was a reported rumor oout there with Jenks going to the mets, so why not comment on it or explore the options? We all know the Sox don't like to give long term deals to pitchers, so you'd be taking his climbing salary and replacing it with something they are more comfortable with paying. I'm in no way saying I want them to trade Jenks, I think they would be crazy to, unless you can get an amazing return. But at some point, you're gonna have to replace Jenks, whether its via trade or free agency if he's asking for a long term deal, so why not see if Poreda can do the job?

kittle42
11-07-2008, 02:52 PM
You'd rather have 60-70 innings of a very good closer than over 1000 innings of an upper-echelon CF?

With that logic, all pitchers are inferior to position players.

kittle42
11-07-2008, 02:55 PM
My 2009 White Sox Lineup
2B Roberts
3B Figgins
RF Quentin
LF M. Ramirez
DH Thome
SS A. Ramirez
1B Swisher
C Pierzynski
CF Anderson



About your 2008 White Sox lineup: Is that supposed to be real? You can't seriously believe the sox will be able to pick up Figgins Roberts and ManRam? What happens to our pitching? It's just not happening.

Plus, that lineup still sucks because it has Brian Anderson in it. :tongue:

kittle42
11-07-2008, 02:56 PM
Just a thought, but has anybody thought of the possible blockbuster of Jermaine Dye + Josh Fields for David Wright? I dont know how we would fill the RF position, but it's just a fantasy.

I'll tell you who wouldn't think about it...the Mets.

Eddo144
11-07-2008, 02:57 PM
With that logic, all pitchers are inferior to position players.
Yeah, I thought of that after I posted.

Try this out instead:

Would you rather have a very good closer for 150-250 plate appearances or an excellent hitter and fielder for 600+ plate appearances plus 100-200 chances in the field?

(Note that a starting pitcher will have well over 600 batters faced.)

kittle42
11-07-2008, 02:58 PM
i love this board.... we want the best players out there but don't want to pay any money nor trade anyone of value for them.

Yup. And the people who say "Let's just pick up under the radar guys" hoping to keep getting lucky amuse me just as much.

GAsoxfan
11-07-2008, 03:02 PM
The Mets have 2 good young OF prospects in Murphy and Evans... They need a lot of pitching..

What about Fernando Martinez? Is he still considered a top prospect?

btrain929
11-07-2008, 03:02 PM
What about Fernando Martinez? Is he still considered a top prospect?

Yeah, but he's not close to being ready.

palehozenychicty
11-07-2008, 03:14 PM
i love this board.... we want the best players out there but don't want to pay any money nor trade anyone of value for them.

Unreal.


Javy plus Bobby straight up for Beltran...... where do I sign.

With arbitration $$$ coming for Bobby + the money per year on Javy ... that gets you much closer to Beltran money per year.

Then if by some miracle you can push off Paulie to ANA for Figgins + other prospects now you are set at lead off and 3B. At this point, yes you can roll the dice with Getz at 2B or Fields at 3B with Figgins moving to 2B.

Money saved from Paulie - Figgins difference can be used to pick up a serviceable #4 starter.


Thank you. I can't believe that people would not want Beltran nor Cano on this team. To get quality, you have to give up some, and the Sox aren't giving up perennial All-Stars here. Either one of those players would improve this team on many, many levels. You can't tell me that any FA 2B we sign has more upside than Cano or any CF we signed off the scrapheap will be more of a factor than Beltran. Now, Beltran is not the gutsiest player in the world, but he's very very solid. Cano has hit close to a .300 clip and drive the ball into the gap with force. He needs to improve the pitch selection, which we know that Greg Walker won't do for him, but he's easily one of the team's premiere players. Time will tell, but those deals are done with one syllable said if they are on the table.

LoveYourSuit
11-07-2008, 03:52 PM
Closing is very, very, very hard. Guys just brush off Jenks like he's nothing. It's bordering on absurd.


No one is brushing off Jenks like nothing here. It's the other way. We think he is so good that we believe he can net back a player of the Caliber of Beltran in a trade.


Also, let's get away from this idea that closers are untouchable or hard to replace. Unless you have those once in a lifetime guys like Mariano, Eck, Hoffman, everyone else is like picking oranges. It's more about luck, just like having a good bullpen is more about luck and health these days. Brad Lidge was toast for 2 seasons after his meltdwon in '05, you could have had him for a song. Look at him now. Look at our track record too. We have done a hell of job picking guys to close and getting succes from it. Jenks was one. Shingo had a nice run as did Hermanson. And we won a WS using 3 closers! Then look at our past history of picking up scraps/no names and making them into serviceable closers: Hernandez, Howry, Karchner, Foulke. Look at the Cubs converting to often injured starting pitchers into closers in Demptser and Wood.


Closers are not difficult to replace, and you can get to a WS and even win one withough having that Mariano type guy there. TB had **** for a closer this year and Det in '06 had crap there too. The Indians where knocking on the WS door last year with Borowski. And look at us when we won the WS, we had 3 guys get us there. The Cardinals sucked too when they won it.

turners56
11-07-2008, 03:57 PM
I'd give Thornton the nod over Dotel, but I'd still (obviously) rather have Jenks.

I think Thornton has what it takes to be a closer. Dotel is mediocre at closing because he's inconsistent. If we can get Beltran + cash for Javy and Bobby, that is a great deal. We can fill our closer role in with our current bullpen as is.

LoveYourSuit
11-07-2008, 04:05 PM
I think Thornton has what it takes to be a closer. Dotel is mediocre at closing because he's inconsistent. If we can get Beltran + cash for Javy and Bobby, that is a great deal. We can fill our closer role in with our current bullpen as is.

It's a no brainer.

turners56
11-07-2008, 04:13 PM
It's a no brainer.

And it's not like we need to sign another closer to a $10+ million deal. We can pick up a middle reliever and move everybody down a slot. Dotel or Thornton will close. Linebrink will setup. The new middle reliever along with either Dotel or Thornton will pitch the 7th.

kidmccarthy
11-07-2008, 04:19 PM
If its Javy and Jenks, we probably have to throw in either Poreda, Getz or Richard as well. Most likely, Poreda. Unfortunately they will want a lot for Beltran.

kittle42
11-07-2008, 04:20 PM
And it's not like we need to sign another closer to a $10+ million deal. We can pick up a middle reliever and move everybody down a slot. Dotel or Thornton will close. Linebrink will setup. The new middle reliever along with either Dotel or Thornton will pitch the 7th.

Yup. It happens every year. For every team successful with a Rivera or Wagner, there is a team that is successful with the two-headed combo of Troy Percival and Dan Wheeler.

dickallen15
11-07-2008, 04:32 PM
I don't see this happening at all. Would Beltran even waive his NTC to approve at trade to Chicago.

Throw in the fact that Beltran is making a **** ton of money.

Vazquez makes a ton of money and Jenks is arb eliigible, so he will too.

gr8mexico
11-07-2008, 04:59 PM
Deal Jenks and sign Fuentes from the Rockies.
That's crazy Fuentes isnt the answer. Maybe the Sox can try moving Aaron Poreda to the bullpen and try getting him reading for the closers roll. Matt Thornton can also be the closer next year.

LoveYourSuit
11-07-2008, 05:00 PM
Vazquez makes a ton of money and Jenks is arb eliigible, so he will too.


Javy makes $12 next season and Jenks will get about $5 million arbitration. $17 million right there compared to $18 million for Beltran. And Javy was here for 2 more season so the Salary wash (or close to it) will be good for 2 season. The years after that you will be losing Konerko, Thome, & Dye off the books (that's if they are still there to begin with).

Building a future 3-4 core with Quentin an Beltran would be great. Add the emergance of Ramirez and perhaps another stud in Beckham, the future looks very solid on offense.

LoveYourSuit
11-07-2008, 05:02 PM
That's crazy Fuentes isnt the answer. Maybe the Sox can try moving Aaron Poreda to the bullpen and try getting him reading for the closers roll. Matt Thornton can also be the closer next year.


That's my plan right there.

If you hear Kenny speak, Poreda will be on the big club next season. He is ML ready according to him. That's if he is not traded.

russ99
11-07-2008, 05:28 PM
You guys are forgetting one minor detail. Beltran's agent is the devil, Mr. Boras, and he got to New York by total fabrication of facts, and was sold down the river for potential endorsements, which I don't think ever came his way.

So if Beltran came here, we'd see the same old Boras mindgames and a Crede-like soap opera play out.

Actually, I see Jose Reyes being much more a possibility if the Sox send a solid package of major leaguer(s) and prospects to the Mets along with Jenks. He's precisely what we need: a leadoff hitting 2B/SS who hits for a good average, has a good OBP and steals a lot of bases.

The Mets may also be more inclined to deal him. Reyes ruffled Met feathers until the midpoint of the season with his awful slump and attitude towards Willie Randolph, and Reyes' contract goes up significantly every year for the rest of his current deal, increases that the Mets may not want to pay:
07:$2.5M, 08:$4M, 09:$5.75M, 10:$9M, 11:$11M club option ($0.5M buyout)

Maybe a package like Jenks, Swisher, Broadway, Egbert, Getz and/or Shelby would do the trick, with a lesser prospect coming to the Sox with Reyes.

Also, maybe Kenny's thinking that Poreda could be a rookie closer, just like Bobby was in 2005, and we also have Linebrink and Dotel who have both closed in the past.

Rockabilly
11-07-2008, 05:47 PM
here is an article that mentions that the Sox and Mets are talking about Bobby Jenks..

http://www.boston.com/sports/baseball/redsox/articles/2008/11/07/like_others_sox_are_biding_time/?rss_id=Boston.com+--+Red+Sox+news



Also saw on another Sox fan website that Bruce Levine reported last night that KW and Omar were having some very serious talks at the GM meetings..

CashMan
11-07-2008, 06:00 PM
here is an article that mentions that the Sox and Mets are talking about Bobby Jenks..

http://www.boston.com/sports/baseball/redsox/articles/2008/11/07/like_others_sox_are_biding_time/?rss_id=Boston.com+--+Red+Sox+news



Also saw on another Sox fan website that Bruce Levine reported last night that KW and Omar were having some very serious talks at the GM meetings..

Hmmm....Omar LOVES his Latin players, so I wonder why he would be interested in Bobby.

turners56
11-07-2008, 06:10 PM
Hmmm....Omar LOVES his Latin players, so I wonder why he would be interested in Bobby.

Cause he doesn't want to spend a fortune on the overrated K-Rod?

kittle42
11-07-2008, 06:15 PM
Hmmm....Omar LOVES his Latin players, so I wonder why he would be interested in Bobby.

Because the Mets realize they also need players of other races? :D:

btrain929
11-07-2008, 06:29 PM
You guys are forgetting one minor detail. Beltran's agent is the devil, Mr. Boras, and he got to New York by total fabrication of facts, and was sold down the river for potential endorsements, which I don't think ever came his way.

So if Beltran came here, we'd see the same old Boras mindgames and a Crede-like soap opera play out.

Two COMPLETELY different situations. It doesn't matter that Boras is Beltran's agent because he's already signed for the next 3 years, as supposed to the Crede situation where he was arbritration eligible, and there was a chance to sign him long term, but they wanted to take it year by year to hit free agency. We won't have to worry about Beltran until after the 2011 season.

cws05champ
11-07-2008, 06:43 PM
Yup. And the people who say "Let's just pick up under the radar guys" hoping to keep getting lucky amuse me just as much.
I just don't think that we need to trade our dominant closer for a CF that makes 18M/year.

Why don't we try to trade Vazquez and Boone Logan + cash for Rick Ankiel. The Cards will bring up Rasmus next year and will need to make room with either Ludwig or Ankiel going elsewhere. Ankiel can play a decent CF, has a great arm and hit for power.

In this scenario you dump Javy's salary and don't pick up more huge salary in return.

Craig Grebeck
11-07-2008, 07:14 PM
I just don't think that we need to trade our dominant closer for a CF that makes 18M/year.

Why don't we try to trade Vazquez and Boone Logan + cash for Rick Ankiel. The Cards will bring up Rasmus next year and will need to make room with either Ludwig or Ankiel going elsewhere. Ankiel can play a decent CF, has a great arm and hit for power.

In this scenario you dump Javy's salary and don't pick up more huge salary in return.
And then you're down a starting pitcher, and didn't get much back in return.

kittle42
11-07-2008, 07:23 PM
And then you're down a starting pitcher, and didn't get much back in return.

And NO ONE WANTS BOONE LOGAN.

CWSpalehoseCWS
11-07-2008, 10:35 PM
here is an article that mentions that the Sox and Mets are talking about Bobby Jenks..

http://www.boston.com/sports/baseball/redsox/articles/2008/11/07/like_others_sox_are_biding_time/?rss_id=Boston.com+--+Red+Sox+news



Also saw on another Sox fan website that Bruce Levine reported last night that KW and Omar were having some very serious talks at the GM meetings..

I really hope not. Bobby is one of the few players I would consider untouchable, along with Ramirez, Quentin and Danks.

Tragg
11-07-2008, 10:55 PM
Cause he doesn't want to spend a fortune on the overrated K-Rod?'
And hard-used last year.
How did all of those saves work out for Bobby Thigpen's career.

A. Cavatica
11-07-2008, 11:57 PM
I really hope not. Bobby is one of the few players I would consider untouchable, along with Ramirez, Quentin and Danks.

Boone is untouchable.

Really. Nobody will touch him.

4 points
11-09-2008, 06:09 AM
Hopefully our lineup next year looks like this

1 Chone Figgins 3B
2 Orlando Hudson 2B
3 Carlos Quentin LF
4 Carlos Beltran CF
5 Jermaine Dye RF
6 Jim Thome DH
7 Nick Swisher 1B
8 AJ Pierzynski C
9 Alexei Ramirez SS

we would have a deadly lineup next year..

:gulp::gulp::gulp::gulp::gulp::gulp::gulp::gulp::g ulp::gulp:

DRINK, I MEAN DREAM ON. A PAYROLL LIKE THAT WOULD CAUSE REINSDORF TO GO INTO CARDIAC ARREST.

4 points
11-09-2008, 06:16 AM
they throw with different hands, duh......:d::d::d::d::d: