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View Full Version : White Sox In Talks With Yankees About A Swisher-Robinson Cano Swap?


Thome25
11-07-2008, 08:18 AM
I Found this to be interesting. While I'm a big fan of Swish, I'd trade him in a package for Cano in a heartbeat.

Here's the link:

http://www.chicagotribune.com/sports/chi-07-whispers-gm-meetings,0,622293.story

Scroll down past all the Cubs garbage to the 2nd paragraph. It says the Sox have been talking "in length" to the Yankees perhaps about Swisher and Cano. They're owed almost the same amount of money.

doublem23
11-07-2008, 08:24 AM
Well, it sounds like Van Dyck is just picking a name on the Yankees roster that may appeal to the Sox's needs, but as much as I like Swisher, I'd take Cano (or possibly, Melky Cabrera) faster than you can say "****ing Yankees."

nodiggity59
11-07-2008, 08:25 AM
I would welcome this. I know Cano has his faults, but he's shown a higher ceiling than Swisher has.

I also don't think PK or Thome will be moved, and I don't want Swish in CF again.

Thome25
11-07-2008, 08:28 AM
Well, it sounds like Van Dyck is just picking a name on the Yankees roster that may appeal to the Sox's needs, but as much as I like Swisher, I'd take Cano (or possibly, Melky Cabrera) faster than you can say "****ing Yankees."

From rumors coming out of the GM meetings Melky Cabrera is available too. It could be him or Cano because the Sox have a need at CF and 2B.

How reliable/accurate is Dave Van Dyck? Does he bull**** or throw **** off the wall to see if it sticks like Couch does?

doublem23
11-07-2008, 08:31 AM
From rumors coming out of the GM meetings Melky Cabrera is available too.

How reliable/accurate is Dave Van Dyck? Does he bull**** or throw **** off the wall to see if it sticks like Couch does?

I don't really know of his reputation good or bad, but in this case it seems like this rumor is entirely started by himself. I'm sure when he heard the Yankees and Sox were interested in making a Nick Swisher deal, he looked over their roster and found the guys that the Sox would most likely want in return.

:dunno:

Craig Grebeck
11-07-2008, 08:32 AM
Cano? Perhaps. Cabrera? Are you out of your ****ing mind?

pythons007
11-07-2008, 08:33 AM
This does nothing for what we actually need! Cano doesn't get on base regularly and can't steal bases! I'm not sure how well he runs the bases but I'm sure he'll bring a little bit more speed to our team. However, I'm totally against this from happening.

Rockabilly
11-07-2008, 08:34 AM
I would love to see Cano come to the Sox

Craig Grebeck
11-07-2008, 08:34 AM
This does nothing for what we actually need! Cano doesn't get on base regularly and can't steal bases! I'm not sure how well he runs the bases but I'm sure he'll bring a little bit more speed to our team. However, I'm totally against this from happening.
We don't need speed. We need good hitters. I don't think Robinson is a very good hitter, but I think he's above average. That's more important than speed.

hellview
11-07-2008, 08:35 AM
Melky and Cano suck balls....this article just seems like he's throwing **** against the wall and seeing what sticks.

doublem23
11-07-2008, 08:36 AM
Cano? Perhaps. Cabrera? Are you out of your ****ing mind?

You got a better solution for our gaping hole in CF?

Dude's 24 years old and still has a career line of .268/.329/.374 even after having a bad year in '08.

The Sox just need a ****ing centerfielder. We could do much, much worse.

Thome25
11-07-2008, 08:37 AM
Melky and Cano suck balls....this article just seems like he's throwing **** against the wall and seeing what sticks.


They may just need a change of scenery and a fresh start somewhere else. New York has been a pretty ****ed up place to play lately.

Craig Grebeck
11-07-2008, 08:38 AM
You got a better solution for our gaping hole in CF?

Dude's 24 years old and still has a career line of .268/.329/.374 even after having a bad year in '08.

The Sox just need a ****ing centerfielder. We could do much, much worse.
Yes. Many better solutions. Would you trade Ryan Sweeney/Gio Gonzalez/DLS for Melky Cabrera?

Thome25
11-07-2008, 08:40 AM
Yes. Many better solutions. Would you trade Ryan Sweeney/Gio Gonzalez/DLS for Melky Cabrera?

None of those guys is ever going to be a great player IMO. Look at KW's track record when he trades prospects and big leaguers for that matter......what has any of them ever done in the past?

Now look at his record when he brings other teams players on board. KW knows what he's doing when he trades our guys away.

hellview
11-07-2008, 08:43 AM
They may just need a change of scenery and a fresh start somewhere else. New York has been a pretty ****ed up place to play lately.

First off what the hell does any team want with Melky. He's regressed every season he's been in the majors and all he's really got is a decent glove. He's a switch hitting BA.

Cano is a mental midget...the guy pretty much sleep walked through 2008 after the Yankees handed him some money.

Forget them both...if Kenny is moving Swisher to the Yankees get some prospects that will be ready in a few years to fill in for Dye, Thome and PK.

doublem23
11-07-2008, 08:43 AM
Yes. Many better solutions. Would you trade Ryan Sweeney/Gio Gonzalez/DLS for Melky Cabrera?

:rolleyes:

20/20 vision is hindsight. What does a player's past transactions have anything to do with their current value? Why does any move need to be justified within that context? Sweeny/Gonzalez/DLS are all gone and have been for almost a year. Now it's about maximizing Swisher's value, if the Sox decide to move him.

That said, DLS = injured garbage; Gonzalez = plain old regular garbage; Sweeney = Good player, but another corner OF, a position we're not terribly weak at.

Rockabilly
11-07-2008, 08:43 AM
Melky and Cano suck balls....this article just seems like he's throwing **** against the wall and seeing what sticks.


I got news for you Swisher suck balls as well last year... Cano and Melky would be a nice fit for the Sox

Domeshot17
11-07-2008, 08:44 AM
Just say no to Cano. He is more of the same crap we don't need. A so so average with a so so OBP who likes to swing real hard and hopes he goes yard.

hellview
11-07-2008, 08:45 AM
:rolleyes:
That said, DLS = injured garbage; Gonzalez = plain old regular garbage; Sweeney = Good player, but another corner OF, a position we're not terribly weak at.

Jeez...I assume you gave up on Danks and Floyd last season?

Craig Grebeck
11-07-2008, 08:46 AM
:rolleyes:

20/20 vision is hindsight. What does a player's past transactions have anything to do with their current value? Why does any move need to be justified within that context? Sweeny/Gonzalez/DLS are all gone and have been for almost a year. Now it's about maximizing Swisher's value, if the Sox decide to move him.

That said, DLS = injured garbage; Gonzalez = plain old regular garbage; Sweeney = Good player, but another corner OF, a position we're not terribly weak at.
Swisher is considerably better than Cabrera. That's not maximizing value, that's downgrading for a guy who has regressed the last three years. His "career stats" are inflated by his one average season.

Also, trading a guy when his value is at the absolute lowest is not a great way of maximizing his value.

Zisk77
11-07-2008, 08:49 AM
This does nothing for what we actually need! Cano doesn't get on base regularly and can't steal bases! I'm not sure how well he runs the bases but I'm sure he'll bring a little bit more speed to our team. However, I'm totally against this from happening.


Oh he CAN steal bases he just didn't in NY. Might have something to do with not want to take the bat out of the hands of AROD et. al.

Also, while stealing bases is needed. What is even more important is to have guys who can do the falling:

Go first to 3b on most singles not hit directly at the left fielder.
Score from 2b on most of singles.
score from 1st base on a good % of extra base hits.
Hit into FC's rather than DP's
get some infield hits.
Bunt.


Cano can do this.

In fact, Cano is a 5 tool player...attitude has been his only real problem. that being said I'd rather have Roberts although cano might be easier to acquire.

Thome25
11-07-2008, 08:51 AM
Jeez...I assume you gave up on Danks and Floyd last season?

See my quote a couple of posts ago:


None of those guys is ever going to be a great player IMO. Look at KW's track record when he trades prospects and big leaguers for that matter......what has any of them ever done in the past?

Now look at his record when he brings other teams players on board. KW knows what he's doing when he trades our guys away.
http://www.whitesoxinteractive.com/vbulletin/images/misc/progress.gif

Swisher is considerably better than Cabrera. That's not maximizing value, that's downgrading for a guy who has regressed the last three years. His "career stats" are inflated by his one average season.

Also, trading a guy when his value is at the absolute lowest is not a great way of maximizing his value.

So we should keep a guy who has no position to play and was garbage last season just to wait and see if he comes out of the funk so we can maximize his value? What if he never does?......we can't keep dead weight when we're trying to defend our division crown.

I'm not saying get Cabrera either.....I'd rather have Cano or someone else for Swisher.

Craig Grebeck
11-07-2008, 08:52 AM
See my quote a couple of posts ago:

http://www.whitesoxinteractive.com/vbulletin/images/misc/progress.gif



So we should keep a guy who has no position to play and was garbage last season just to wait and see if he comes out of the funk so we can maximize his value? What if he never does?......we can't keep dead weight when we're trying to defend our division crown.

I'm not saying get Cabrera either.....I'd rather have Cano or someone else for Swisher.
Probably because his track record and peripherals say that was an anomaly. Swisher can play CF.

hellview
11-07-2008, 08:53 AM
None of those guys is ever going to be a great player IMO. Look at KW's track record when he trades prospects and big leaguers for that matter......what has any of them ever done in the past?

Now look at his record when he brings other teams players on board. KW knows what he's doing when he trades our guys away.


So because it's worked out in the trades Kenny has made over the last couple seasons that instantly means the minute Kenny trades said player they'll never be anything?

Thome25
11-07-2008, 08:56 AM
So because it's worked out in the trades Kenny has made over the last couple seasons that instantly means the minute Kenny trades said player they'll never be anything?

It hasn't been just the last couple of seasons....it's pretty much been KW's track record his entire tenure here. He knows when it's time to unload our big leaguers and prospects......a vast majority of the time they amount to nothing for the other team.

KW knows a hell of alot more than you and I do......he has proven that with the trades he's made.

hellview
11-07-2008, 09:00 AM
It hasn't been just the last couple of seasons....it's pretty much been KW's track record his entire tenure here. He knows when it's time to unload our big leaguers and prospects......a vast majority of the time they amount to nothing for the other team.

KW knows a hell of alot more than you and I do......he has proven that with the trades he's made.

So you pretty much believe that if Kenny trades them they'll never amount to nothing cause of his history...

Thome25
11-07-2008, 09:05 AM
So you pretty much believe that if Kenny trades them they'll never amount to nothing cause of his history...

KW has a history of trading away the right guys and keeping the right guys. He also has a history of getting the right guys from other teams. IMO this proves that he's a good talent evaluator. He shows that he trades guys that aren't very much use to us and haven't been much use to the other team for that matter. Why should we expect any different when he has shown this time and again? Gio, Sweeney, and DLS are already on this road.....the same road as the other parts KW has traded away in the past.

That's just my opinion though.

LoveYourSuit
11-07-2008, 09:08 AM
People bitching about the possibility of getting rid of Swisher for Cano:scratch:

Are you kidding me?

A 2B with a career .303 BA, .468 SLG, and .803 OPS?

Thome25
11-07-2008, 09:10 AM
People bitching about the possibility of getting rid of Swisher for Cano:scratch:

Are you kidding me?

A 2B with a career .303 BA, .468 SLG, and .803 OBP?

Exactly....I'd LOVE to have him on the White Sox. An Alexei and Cano middle infield for the next several years? Where do I sign up?

Craig Grebeck
11-07-2008, 09:14 AM
People bitching about the possibility of getting rid of Swisher for Cano:scratch:

Are you kidding me?

A 2B with a career .303 BA, .468 SLG, and .803 OBP?
That I could stomach. Melky Cabrera would be horrific.

LoveYourSuit
11-07-2008, 09:17 AM
Exactly....I'd LOVE to have him on the White Sox. An Alexei and Cano middle infield for the next several years? Where do I sign up?

Add the fact that you rid yourself out of a huge problem which is a guy without a position.

Cano hitting second despite his low OBP last year would be tremendous for TCQ.

We still have to get a lead off hitter, at that point with a bat of the caliber of Cano hitting 2nd and with good enough speed to go from 1st to 3rd on a single ..... I can live with a Tavares type guy leading off. I would much prefer Figgins, but who can I get cheaper?

Kenny pulls these two moves to fill 2 big needs without giving up Poreda ..... I build a statue for him.

Thome25
11-07-2008, 09:18 AM
People bitching about the possibility of getting rid of Swisher for Cano:scratch:

Are you kidding me?

A 2B with a career .303 BA, .468 SLG, and .803 OBP?

Plus, Cano is only 27. He fits our desire to go younger and his best days may still be ahead of him.

NLaloosh
11-07-2008, 09:18 AM
None of this makes any sense to me.

Apparently, the Yankees would want Swisher for 1B because they have a glut of outfielders.

But, neither Cano nor Cabrera is exactly what the Sox are looking for.

Cano is worth more than Swisher is worth more then Cabrera.

I'd gladly take Cano for Swisher but the Sox would still need a leadoff hitter and speed at 3B and CF.

My guess is that they are just talking anyway and nothin comes to fruition. There's no real good fit here. Damon would be a good leadoff hitter for the Sox but he can't play center anymore.

I could see the Yankees wanting Swisher because it looks like they'll be spending their free agent money on 2 big pitchers and not Tex.

They're going hard after CC, Burnett and Lowe.

I like Swisher and would prefer to keep him at 1B and move Konerko but that may be impossible.

However, I don't see how anyone can complain about Swisher for Cano.

doublem23
11-07-2008, 09:21 AM
Jeez...I assume you gave up on Danks and Floyd last season?

No, because those guys were scouted and mostly developed outside of the White Sox farm system... Gonzalez and DLS are mostly products of the Sox's work, so I do have zero faith in them ever being more than mediocre MLB players.

Thome25
11-07-2008, 09:27 AM
I know this probably wouldn't happen I'm not stupid but, If the White Sox got Cano AND Figgins (or another established leadoff hitter.) and plugged BA into CF what would the lineup look like? Where would Alexei bat?

LoveYourSuit
11-07-2008, 09:29 AM
None of this makes any sense to me.

Apparently, the Yankees would want Swisher for 1B because they have a glut of outfielders.

But, neither Cano nor Cabrera is exactly what the Sox are looking for.

Cano is worth more than Swisher is worth more then Cabrera.

I'd gladly take Cano for Swisher but the Sox would still need a leadoff hitter and speed at 3B and CF.

My guess is that they are just talking anyway and nothin comes to fruition. There's no real good fit here. Damon would be a good leadoff hitter for the Sox but he can't play center anymore.

I could see the Yankees wanting Swisher because it looks like they'll be spending their free agent money on 2 big pitchers and not Tex.

They're going hard after CC, Burnett and Lowe.

I like Swisher and would prefer to keep him at 1B and move Konerko but that may be impossible.

However, I don't see how anyone can complain about Swisher for Cano.

I think Paulie is due next season for a huge comeback. I think what we saw from Swisher this season is pretty close to his norm. There is a low ceiling there as to what more he can do. Paulie on the other hand can put up numbers right next to the elite power hitters in the AL, assuming he gets his head straight and avoids the injuries.

Age, speed, and salary is biggest difference after that which all favor Swisher. But what good is it if you are young and suck. What good is it that your can run better than the older guy but yet your speed cannot produce anything of value because it is aveage at best (can't steal bases, can't play CF, struggle to score from 2B like everyone else), Salary, I can't argue there.

Marqhead
11-07-2008, 09:29 AM
I'd love Cano on the Sox, that being said does anyone know anything about his defense?

Lukin13
11-07-2008, 09:32 AM
If Cano was right handed no one would like him.

He has a pretty swing and people associate that with a high ceiling. Maybe they are right....?

Cano is another player with an atrocious OBP.

I know it will take a miracle for Swisher to be at 1B for us in '09, but I'd hate to see him go after one bad season. Coming into '08 he was EXACTLY the type of offensive player the current team needed... I am not sure how one bad season where he was bounced around the order has changed this. If Swish had been traded to another team in '08 and had the same sort of season, he would be my #1 target this offseason. Everytime his name comes up on other boards, fans of other teams start salivating. I understand that when Quentin beat out BA and Owens, it meant Swisher didn't have a true position on the current team, but there are several other moves that can keep him around.

Other Cano tidbits:

He'll earn $6 million in 2009, $9 million in 2010, $10 million in 2011, $14 million in 2012 and $15 million in 2013. Either of those last two years can be bought out for $2 million. Not terrible if you think he will bounce back, but definitely not cheap. If you figure he will never see the big payment years, you can add the buy out to the next two years, making him roughly 10 mill per through 2011,

Also, does it really matter if he can't swipe a base? Unless KW adds at least at least two speedsters, and moves one or two of our "bs guys (big slow)" this team shouldn't be running.

hellview
11-07-2008, 09:33 AM
I'd love Cano on the Sox, that being said does anyone know anything about his defense?

http://www.tailored.com.au/uploaded_images/thumb-down-752911.jpg

doublem23
11-07-2008, 09:35 AM
I know this probably wouldn't happen I'm not stupid but, If the White Sox got Cano AND Figgins (or another established leadoff hitter.) and plugged BA into CF what would the lineup look like? Where would Alexei bat?

My best guess: Figgins, Cano, Quentin, Thome, Dye, Konerko, Alexei, AJ, Anderson

Marqhead
11-07-2008, 09:36 AM
Well played Hellview...

Lukin13
11-07-2008, 09:39 AM
I'd love Cano on the Sox, that being said does anyone know anything about his defense?


Cano +/-

'06: -4, ranked 24th at 2B.
'07: +17, ranked 5th.
'08: -16, ranked 35th.

Cano THT:

'08: RZR .809 / OOZ 30

I have always heard that Jeter/Cano was the worst DP combo in baseball.

Thome25
11-07-2008, 09:42 AM
The #24 is going to be available for Cano on the White Sox and we all know how KW feels about 2nd basemen named "Robbie".:D:

veeter
11-07-2008, 09:46 AM
Even though Cano's weaknesses have been intelligently pointed out here, I think he would kick ass with the Sox. But at what cost?

Lillian
11-07-2008, 09:49 AM
Cano is not a good fit for the Sox. Beckham will be ready in a year or two, right when Cano's contract gets pretty expensive.
He is not good enough on defense.
He doesn't solve the speed problem.
Why not ask for Brett Gardner? He's a real speedster, and could fill the CF hole. If Gardner isn't enough straight up, then ask the Yankeees to throw in a minor league prospect.
If they want Swisher at First Base, I'd settle for getting rid of him and his contract, which is not all as reasonable as some suggest.

Thome25
11-07-2008, 09:56 AM
Cano is not a good fit for the Sox. Beckham will be ready in a year or two, right when Cano's contract gets pretty expensive.
He is not good enough on defense.
He doesn't solve the speed problem.
Why not ask for Brett Gardner? He's a real speedster, and could fill the CF hole. If Gardner isn't enough straight up, then ask the Yankeees to throw in a minor league prospect.
If they want Swisher at First Base, I'd settle for getting rid of him and his contract, which is not all as reasonable as some suggest.

IMHO Beckham will be our 3B of the future. Fields seems to have fallen out of favor with the Sox somewhat and Alexei will be our SS the next several years.

sox1970
11-07-2008, 10:00 AM
IMHO Beckham will be our 3B of the future. Fields seems to have fallen out of favor with the Sox somewhat and Alexei will be our SS the next several years.

Until they actually move Beckham to 3B, I'm not buying it. He's only playing SS and 2B in the fall league, so they seem to like him playing up the middle. Doesn't mean they won't move him to 3B in spring training, but I won't believe that until it happens.

pythons007
11-07-2008, 10:01 AM
IMHO Beckham will be our 3B of the future. Fields seems to have fallen out of favor with the Sox somewhat and Alexei will be our SS the next several years.


Where has Beckham played since he signed?

Kogs35
11-07-2008, 10:26 AM
hmmm todays new york post had rumors of cano going to the dodgers

munchman33
11-07-2008, 10:33 AM
People get traded all the time. The idea that we shouldn't acquire a Cano or a Roberts because of Beckham is foolish. You makes moves to work Beckham in when he's ready. Not before.

LoveYourSuit
11-07-2008, 10:47 AM
People get traded all the time. The idea that we shouldn't acquire a Cano or a Roberts because of Beckham is foolish. You makes moves to work Beckham in when he's ready. Not before.


Exactly right Munch.

Kenny has to work on making the 2009 team better and whatever happens with Beckham that's for the future to decide.

mzh
11-07-2008, 10:48 AM
Has anybody really thought about possibly bringing back Tadahito Iguchi back to hold down second base for a while? I would probably give up Swisher to get him back for a couple years.

Eddo144
11-07-2008, 10:50 AM
Has anybody really thought about possibly bringing back Tadahito Iguchi back to hold down second base for a while? I would probably give up Swisher to get him back for a couple years.
Iguchi's 32 and hit .232/.292/.306 (yes, .306 slugging) this year. He had a few good years in Chicago, but to take him back now would be foolish. He's no longer an effective major league hitter, and he's never been very good defensively.

pythons007
11-07-2008, 10:51 AM
Has anybody really thought about possibly bringing back Tadahito Iguchi back to hold down second base for a while? I would probably give up Swisher to get him back for a couple years.

:rolling:

Swisher for Iguchi SWEET DEAL! Where do we sign up for that one?

pythons007
11-07-2008, 10:53 AM
Iguchi's 32 and hit .232/.292/.306 (yes, .306 slugging) this year. He had a few good years in Chicago, but to take him back now would be foolish. He's no longer an effective major league hitter, and he's never been very good defensively.


I beg to differ. I remember him being a very good defender! Do you remember the play when he was parrallel with the ground!?!?!?!

khan
11-07-2008, 10:53 AM
People bitching about the possibility of getting rid of Swisher for Cano:scratch:

Are you kidding me?

A 2B with a career .303 BA, .468 SLG, and .803 SLG?

Is this REALLY his Slugging Percentage? Or is this his OPS? A .803 SLG would be Steroidific, no?

By the way, what is his actual OBP? And can he complete a run-down without throwing the ball all over the yard?

EMachine10
11-07-2008, 10:53 AM
Where has Beckham played since he signed?
SS and 2B

mzh
11-07-2008, 10:57 AM
Iguchi's 32 and hit .232/.292/.306 (yes, .306 slugging) this year. He had a few good years in Chicago, but to take him back now would be foolish. He's no longer an effective major league hitter, and he's never been very good defensively.
On the contrary, Iguchi has a career fielding pct. of .987

khan
11-07-2008, 11:00 AM
He had a few good years in Chicago, but to take him back now would be foolish.
Perhaps. We don't know what he'd cost to acquire, and for what role. On a contender, I'd take him as a utility IF over Getz, and let Getz get ABs in Charlotte.

He's no longer an effective major league hitter,
Perhaps. 32 isn't really all that old. But he IS on the downside of his career.

and he's never been very good defensively.
Now you're over-reaching, IMO. He was at LEAST adequate defensively to my recollection.

LoveYourSuit
11-07-2008, 11:08 AM
Is this REALLY his Slugging Percentage? Or is this his OPS? A .803 SLG would be Steroidific, no?

By the way, what is his actual OBP? And can he complete a run-down without throwing the ball all over the yard?


my bad.... OPS is correct.

I corrected it once from OBP to SLG and now it should be OPS.... I will get it right sometime before the end of this year.

mzh
11-07-2008, 11:12 AM
Swisher is probably the player most likely to be in the bubble, and that paired with the fact that the Yankees need a 1st baseman makes a Swisher deal more likely.
The ideal trade for the Sox: Swisher + Getz = Cano + Gardner.

guillen4life13
11-07-2008, 11:15 AM
Swisher is probably the player most likely to be in the bubble, and that paired with the fact that the Yankees need a 1st baseman makes a Swisher deal more likely.
The ideal trade for the Sox: Swisher + Getz = Cano + Gardner.

I made that pink for a reason. I think it would be a stretch to expect that type of deal. Getz<Gardner. Swisher<Cano.

Eddo144
11-07-2008, 11:19 AM
I beg to differ. I remember him being a very good defender! Do you remember the play when he was parrallel with the ground!?!?!?!
Yep, that one play proves it. Remember when Dye made that diving catch? Or when Manny high-fived the fan? Those plays prove that they're awesome defensively as well.

Every objective report on defense I've ever seen ranks Iguchi as below average to average defensively.

palehozenychicty
11-07-2008, 11:19 AM
Cano is not a good fit for the Sox. Beckham will be ready in a year or two, right when Cano's contract gets pretty expensive.
He is not good enough on defense.
He doesn't solve the speed problem.
Why not ask for Brett Gardner? He's a real speedster, and could fill the CF hole. If Gardner isn't enough straight up, then ask the Yankeees to throw in a minor league prospect.
If they want Swisher at First Base, I'd settle for getting rid of him and his contract, which is not all as reasonable as some suggest.


They should be asking for Gardner. The Yankees can't figure out whether they want to play him over Melky, but he brought tools to their lineup that both teams really needed. Since Damon is on the books, he will lead off for them next year, and Gardner can play. I'd love to have him on our team. Cano as well. People not wanting Cano are crazy.

mzh
11-07-2008, 11:19 AM
I made that pink for a reason. I think it would be a stretch to expect that type of deal. Getz<Gardner. Swisher<Cano.

Perhaps a deal like that would work if you throw in somebody else. I heard someone earlier say Vazquez for Daniel Cabrera, but Javy already had one stint with the Yankees, and I'm not sure they would want him back. Possibly Anderson-Getz-Swisher = Cano-Gardner/X. Nady?

doublem23
11-07-2008, 11:43 AM
Perhaps a deal like that would work if you throw in somebody else. I heard someone earlier say Vazquez for Daniel Cabrera, but Javy already had one stint with the Yankees, and I'm not sure they would want him back. Possibly Anderson-Getz-Swisher = Cano-Gardner/X. Nady?

Daniel Cabrera is an Oriole.

mzh
11-07-2008, 11:45 AM
my mistake...

Madscout
11-07-2008, 12:10 PM
I made that pink for a reason. I think it would be a stretch to expect that type of deal. Getz<Gardner. Swisher<Cano.

Perhaps a deal like that would work if you throw in somebody else. I heard someone earlier say Vazquez for Daniel Cabrera, but Javy already had one stint with the Yankees, and I'm not sure they would want him back. Possibly Anderson-Getz-Swisher = Cano-Gardner/X. Nady?
He does us no good. We need a CF not a corner OF.

Rockabilly
11-07-2008, 12:12 PM
I saw a rumor that has Cano going to the Dodgers for Matt Kemp..

btrain929
11-07-2008, 12:12 PM
I saw a rumor that has Cano going to the Dodgers for Matt Kemp..

The Dodgers would be dumb to do that trade straight up.

mzh
11-07-2008, 12:15 PM
If you can pick up speed and a center fielder at the same time, why not use Swisher to get us a third baseman and try to pick up someone like Joey Gathright on KC?

hellview
11-07-2008, 12:16 PM
If you can pick up speed and a center fielder at the same time, why not use Swisher to get us a third baseman and try to pick up someone like Joey Gathright on KC?

Joey Gathright....really?

TDog
11-07-2008, 12:17 PM
This does nothing for what we actually need! Cano doesn't get on base regularly and can't steal bases! I'm not sure how well he runs the bases but I'm sure he'll bring a little bit more speed to our team. However, I'm totally against this from happening.

Nick Swisher does nothing for what the White Sox actually need.

Of course, the White Sox will need to acquire a new centerfielder. Last offseason the Sox picked up Swisher for the role. His days as a Whtie Sox centerfielder appear over, but it isn't like they are going to turn the job over to Anderson and Wise.

Lillian
11-07-2008, 12:18 PM
I saw a rumor that has Cano going to the Dodgers for Matt Kemp..

If the Yankees acquired Kemp they really would not need Gardner.
They would have three center fielders; Cabrera, Gardner and Kemp.
I still like Swisher for Gardner and another prospect.

mzh
11-07-2008, 12:29 PM
Joey Gathright....really?

Why not? He may not be the best hitter, but remember in 05 when Scott Podsednik, who I think is a similar player to Gathright, got more playing time than he had since 2002? he had a career year. All we need for Gathright to do is have a career year, i.e. .285, 5 HR, 45-50 SB, and we're set.

btrain929
11-07-2008, 12:31 PM
If the Yankees acquired Kemp they really would not need Gardner.
They would have three center fielders; Cabrera, Gardner and Kemp.
I still like Swisher for Gardner and another prospect.

I think that'd be overpaying for Gardner.

Craig Grebeck
11-07-2008, 12:32 PM
I think that'd be overpaying for Gardner.
Correct.
Why not? He may not be the best hitter, but remember in 05 when Scott Podsednik, who I think is a similar player to Gathright, got more playing time than he had since 2002? he had a career year. All we need for Gathright to do is have a career year, i.e. .285, 5 HR, 45-50 SB, and we're set.

Yeah, not happening.

mzh
11-07-2008, 12:34 PM
Yeah, not happening.

What else do you suggest, because I sure as heck don't want to see Nick Swisher back in CF.

Craig Grebeck
11-07-2008, 12:35 PM
What else do you suggest, because I sure as heck don't want to see Nick Swisher back in CF.
It's a hell of a lot better than Joey Gathright. I don't really want to see AJ back behind the plate, but I'm not hoping we acquire Jason Varitek.

mzh
11-07-2008, 12:37 PM
It's a hell of a lot better than Joey Gathright. I don't really want to see AJ back behind the plate, but I'm not hoping we acquire Jason Varitek.

Why don't you want to see A.J. back behind the plate? He's been a consistent workhorse since 2005, until this September his average was at .300, and it's easy to see why it dropped.

btrain929
11-07-2008, 12:37 PM
What else do you suggest, because I sure as heck don't want to see Nick Swisher back in CF.

KW is already on record saying Swisher won't be in CF in 2009. I highly HIGHLY doubt he starts the year on the bench, so I think a Dye or a Konerko trade is inevitable.

Craig Grebeck
11-07-2008, 12:38 PM
Why don't you want to see A.J. back behind the plate? He's been a consistent workhorse since 2005, until this September his average was at .300, and it's easy to see why it dropped.
Because he is abysmal defensively. He's not a great hitter, so I don't really think it makes up for his defensive deficiencies.

Craig Grebeck
11-07-2008, 12:39 PM
KW is already on record saying Swisher won't be in CF in 2009. I highly HIGHLY doubt he starts the year on the bench, so I think a Dye or a Konerko trade is inevitable.
Probably. Sadly, Konerko's a 10-5 guy, so Dye might be shipped out. Like I said earlier, we don't have to, but I'd rather sell high now.

Taliesinrk
11-07-2008, 12:46 PM
Because he is abysmal defensively. He's not a great hitter, so I don't really think it makes up for his defensive deficiencies.

In the words of Dwight Schrutte, "FALSE".

While he may be "abysmal" at throwing runners out, there is much more to consider when evaluating someone's defensive talent at the catching position. We should not mistake the two.

Craig Grebeck
11-07-2008, 12:47 PM
In the words of Dwight Schrutte, "FALSE".

While he may be "abysmal" at throwing runners out, there is much more to consider when evaluating someone's defensive talent at the catching position. We should not mistake the two.
He is abysmal at throwing guys out. That's a fact. He's terrible at receiving throws at home plate and almost never tags guys out.

mzh
11-07-2008, 12:50 PM
Because he is abysmal defensively. He's not a great hitter, so I don't really think it makes up for his defensive deficiencies.

We would not have won in 2005 or 2008 without A.J. He's not a great hitter, but a .285 lifetime average is above mediocre. How many catchers in the league can you name that are better than A.J? Name some. I concede he cannot throw anybody out, but Jose Contreras and Freddy Garcia would have had a lot more wild pitches without A.J.

mzh
11-07-2008, 12:52 PM
He is abysmal at throwing guys out. That's a fact. He's terrible at receiving throws at home plate and almost never tags guys out.

May I remind you the Michael Cuddyer play in the tiebreaker? That saved our whole freakin' season!

Don't forget Michael Barret either.

Craig Grebeck
11-07-2008, 12:53 PM
We would not have won in 2005 or 2008 without A.J. He's not a great hitter, but a .285 lifetime average is above mediocre. How many catchers in the league can you name that are better than A.J? Name some.
Well, depends on your metric. Mauer, McCann, Pudge, Soto, Martin, Shoppach, Suzuki, Doumit, Ianetta, Snyder, Navarro, Molina, Molina, Schneider, Laird, etc.

Craig Grebeck
11-07-2008, 12:54 PM
May I remind you the Michael Cuddyer play in the tiebreaker? That saved our whole freakin' season!

Don't forget Michael Barret either.
Great. Two plays. Thanks.

hellview
11-07-2008, 12:54 PM
May I remind you the Michael Cuddyer play in the tiebreaker? That saved our whole freakin' season!

Don't forget Michael Barret either.

Well I guess he's a defensive wiz cause he made two plays.

oeo
11-07-2008, 12:55 PM
Why not? He may not be the best hitter, but remember in 05 when Scott Podsednik, who I think is a similar player to Gathright, got more playing time than he had since 2002?

That's not true at all. Pods was Milwaukee's starting centerfielder for the two years prior to coming here.

mzh
11-07-2008, 12:56 PM
Can anyone name a time when the ball was right where it should have been and A.J. simply blew it? 'Cause I can't.

SoxNation05
11-07-2008, 12:57 PM
Can anyone name a time when the ball was right where it should have been and A.J. simply blew it? 'Cause I can't.
Could you stop posting please?

btrain929
11-07-2008, 12:59 PM
Could you stop posting please?

:rolling:

Mzh: The point Grebeck is making, and I don't think many people can argue with it, is that AJ is below average defensively. Now his hatred for AJ probably goes alot farther than that, but you cannot argue and same AJ is a good catcher defensively.

SoxNation05
11-07-2008, 01:03 PM
mzh: I didn't mean to be rude but AJ is not a good defensive catcher overall. Simple as that. Besides don't argue with Grebeck he will nit pick a stat and that is his whole argument. Grebeck knows what's best and his own mind and nobody can tell him differently.

mzh
11-07-2008, 01:03 PM
:rolling:

Mzh: The point Grebeck is making, and I don't think many people can argue with it, is that AJ is below average defensively. Now his hatred for AJ probably goes alot farther than that, but you cannot argue and same AJ is a good catcher defensively.

I appreciate what you're saying. In this light, A.J. is being trashed Rex Grossman-style. In other words, no matter what someone does, the people still dislike him. I know that is definitely true for the other 29 MLB teams about A.J, but I don't quite understand why people seem so dissatisfied with A.J.

Craig Grebeck
11-07-2008, 01:06 PM
I appreciate what you're saying. In this light, A.J. is being trashed Rex Grossman-style. In other words, no matter what someone does, the people still dislike him. I know that is definitely true for the other 29 MLB teams about A.J, but I don't quite understand why people seem so dissatisfied with A.J.
Because his defense is terrible. Even adequate defense with his bat would be acceptable, but it's not.

mzh
11-07-2008, 01:09 PM
Because his defense is terrible. Even adequate defense with his bat would be acceptable, but it's not.

Then why would Jason Varitek be any better? A.J. is a better hitter, and has a better fielding pct.

Over By There
11-07-2008, 01:09 PM
I'm surprised at that people are so down on Cano. I've always thought he'd look good in a Sox uniform. Still relatively young, has had a few bad stretches with the bat (like first half of '08) but otherwise can hit, and seems to be a class act. I don't profess to watching the Yankees consistently enough to opine on his defensive skills, but he's never struck me as atrocious, that's for sure.

Someone earlier implied he's an all-or-nothing power hitter with a pretty swing, but a .303 average over 4 ML seasons tells me otherwise. I'm also not sure why someone earlier suggested he's a five tool player with character issues - I don't recall hearing anything negative about him in the media. From what I've heard he's a class act with respect for the game.

If we could get Cano straight up for Swisher, I'd do that deal in a heartbeat. Put him in the 2 hole and try to get the leadoff hitter/CF somewhere else.

Craig Grebeck
11-07-2008, 01:11 PM
Then why would Jason Varitek be any better? A.J. is a better hitter, and has a better fielding pct.
It's a hell of a lot better than Joey Gathright. I don't really want to see AJ back behind the plate, but I'm not hoping we acquire Jason Varitek.
Swing and a miss. Fielding percentage = garbage.

veeter
11-07-2008, 01:12 PM
He is abysmal at throwing guys out. That's a fact. He's terrible at receiving throws at home plate and almost never tags guys out.His pitching staff doesn't help him out at all in this regard. AJ for the most part has no chance.

mzh
11-07-2008, 01:13 PM
Fielding percentage = garbage.

Then why have you been screaming about A.J.'s bad fielding?
Once again, I challenge you to name any MLB catchers better than A.J. outside of Joe Mauer, who is undeniably the best in the business.

Taliesinrk
11-07-2008, 01:14 PM
Then why would Jason Varitek be any better? A.J. is a better hitter, and has a better fielding pct.

:o: - mzh - Arguing your point with Grebeck by using stats is war. It's trying to beat him at what he's best at: stats. You should not be surprised to see a response explaining the pitfalls of fielding percentage and why another stat would be better.

Good luck

EDIT: Haha - I promise he posted his response while I was typing mine - I didn't read his until after I posted.

Lillian
11-07-2008, 01:16 PM
Just to elaborate on why I like Gardner, and think that he would be a good fit:
1) He is very good defensively.
2) He has great speed, and base stealing prowess.
3) He knows how to take walks
4) He's young and cheap

I consider him a better version of Owens.

Swisher has no place to play, unless we trade Dye or Konerko.
I'd hate to give up Dye's offense. If we keep Dye, we really need speed, range and defense in CF.
We don't need a second baseman. I would think that between Nix and Getz, someone will get the job done. And again, Beckham will be up by 2010.

And by the way, I don't see how we can afford to give up Javy. We are already short one starter, with contreras out.

Craig Grebeck
11-07-2008, 01:16 PM
Then why have you been screaming about A.J.'s bad fielding?
Once again, I challenge you to name any MLB catchers better than A.J. outside of Joe Mauer, who is undeniably the best in the business.
Scroll up for a list.

I'm saying fielding percentage is an idiotic way of judging somebody defensively, that doesn't mean AJ isn't a bad fielder. I'm not sure what the disconnect is here.

Craig Grebeck
11-07-2008, 01:17 PM
Just to elaborate on why I like Gardner, and think that he would be a good fit:
1) He is very good defensively.
2) He has great speed, and base stealing prowess.
3) He knows how to take walks
4) He's young and cheap

I consider him a better version of Owens.

Swisher has no place to play, unless we trade Dye or Konerko.
I'd hate to give up Dye's offense. If we keep Dye, we really need speed, range and defense in CF.
We don't need a second baseman. I would think that between Nix and Getz, someone will get the job done. And again, Beckham will be up by 2010.

And by the way, I don't see how we can afford to give up Javy. We are already short one starter, with contreras out.
Gardner is a fourth outfielder. There's better guys to acquire.

Thome25
11-07-2008, 01:19 PM
I'm surprised at that people are so down on Cano. I've always thought he'd look good in a Sox uniform. Still relatively young, has had a few bad stretches with the bat (like first half of '08) but otherwise can hit, and seems to be a class act. I don't profess to watching the Yankees consistently enough to opine on his defensive skills, but he's never struck me as atrocious, that's for sure.

Someone earlier implied he's an all-or-nothing power hitter with a pretty swing, but a .303 average over 4 ML seasons tells me otherwise. I'm also not sure why someone earlier suggested he's a five tool player with character issues - I don't recall hearing anything negative about him in the media. From what I've heard he's a class act with respect for the game.

If we could get Cano straight up for Swisher, I'd do that deal in a heartbeat. Put him in the 2 hole and try to get the leadoff hitter/CF somewhere else.

I can see why some posters are questioning his character. He was benched by Girardi last season for dogging it. Now I don't think that means he's a bad a guy or a clubhouse cancer but, he is obviously unhappy in NY and could probably be had for relatively cheap because he is wearing out his welcome in NY.

Here is the link:

http://newyork.yankees.mlb.com/news/article.jsp?ymd=20080915&content_id=3482499&vkey=news_nyy&fext=.jsp&c_id=nyy

He was benched against the White Sox in September for not hustling on picking up a a ground ball. He was pretty stand up about it though and said it was his fault and he won't let it happen again.

mzh
11-07-2008, 01:22 PM
Scroll up for a list.

I'm saying fielding percentage is an idiotic way of judging somebody defensively, that doesn't mean AJ isn't a bad fielder. I'm not sure what the disconnect is here.

If fielding percentage cannot judge how good a fielder somebody is, this argument is based completely on opinions, which it is anyway, and I am interested in your opinions, and as far as I can tell, you have given me no examples of how A.J. is a bad fielding catcher, and I still don't see who you think is a better catcher than A.J. Give me some more reason besides just blatant opinions, and then I might start to see the point you are trying to make.

Craig Grebeck
11-07-2008, 01:24 PM
If fielding percentage cannot judge how good a fielder somebody is, this argument is based completely on opinions, which it is anyway, and I am interested in your opinions, and as far as I can tell, you have given me no examples of how A.J. is a bad fielding catcher, and I still don't see who you think is a better catcher than A.J. Give me some more reason besides just blatant opinions, and then I might start to see the point you are trying to make.
Well, depends on your metric. Mauer, McCann, Pudge, Soto, Martin, Shoppach, Suzuki, Doumit, Ianetta, Snyder, Navarro, Molina, Molina, Schneider, Laird, etc.

AJ is absolute **** at throwing runners out. He gave up 96 stolen bases this season and only threw out 21 guys.

Paulwny
11-07-2008, 01:28 PM
I'm surprised at that people are so down on Cano. I've always thought he'd look good in a Sox uniform. Still relatively young, has had a few bad stretches with the bat (like first half of '08) but otherwise can hit, and seems to be a class act. I don't profess to watching the Yankees consistently enough to opine on his defensive skills, but he's never struck me as atrocious, that's for sure.

Someone earlier implied he's an all-or-nothing power hitter with a pretty swing, but a .303 average over 4 ML seasons tells me otherwise. I'm also not sure why someone earlier suggested he's a five tool player with character issues - I don't recall hearing anything negative about him in the media. From what I've heard he's a class act with respect for the game.

If we could get Cano straight up for Swisher, I'd do that deal in a heartbeat. Put him in the 2 hole and try to get the leadoff hitter/CF somewhere else.


I'd also like to see Cano in a Sox uniform.
From some of what I've read/heard, he and Melky became best friends and the night life became part of their lives. This may explain the poor season for both of them.

Paulwny
11-07-2008, 01:29 PM
AJ is absolute **** at throwing runners out. He gave up 96 stolen bases this season and only threw out 21 guys.


You need more than 2 pitchers who are capable of holding on base runners.

KenBerryGrab
11-07-2008, 01:29 PM
AJ is absolute **** at throwing runners out. He gave up 96 stolen bases this season and only threw out 21 guys.

A lot of that is on the pitchers. Floyd was the easiest to run on in the majors.

mzh
11-07-2008, 01:29 PM
AJ is absolute **** at throwing runners out. He gave up 96 stolen bases this season and only threw out 21 guys.
His pitching is absolutely no help whatsoever. If they did not take 10 seconds to pitch out of the stretch, A.J. would have a chance.

I'll concede Mauer, McCann, Navarro and Soto as better catchers, but how can you put Kurt Suzuki, Kelly Shoppach, Gerald Laird, an over the hill Pudge Rodriguez and Jose Molina as better catchers? I'm sorry, but those are just ridiculous. Russel Martin is similar to A.J, but A.J. had a statistically better year.

Craig Grebeck
11-07-2008, 01:30 PM
A lot of that is on the pitchers. Floyd was the easiest to run on in the majors.
That's an absolute cop out. He's never been good at it and has regressed year after year.

hellview
11-07-2008, 01:31 PM
You need more than 2 pitchers who are capable of holding on base runners.

AJ could never throw goes out, dating back to his time with the Twins and year with the Giants.

Craig Grebeck
11-07-2008, 01:31 PM
His pitching is absolutely no help whatsoever. If they did not take 10 seconds to pitch out of the stretch, A.J. would have a chance.

I'll concede Mauer, McCann, Navarro and Soto as better catchers, but how can you put Kurt Suzuki, Kelly Shoppach, and Jose Molina as better catchers? I'm sorry, but those are just ridiculous. Russel Martin is similar to A.J, but A.J. had a statistically better year.
Bengie and Yadier.

Martin is similar to AJ in that they both are catchers, but that's the end of the comparison. Martin is a much, much better hitter.

veeter
11-07-2008, 01:32 PM
That's an absolute cop out. He's never been good at it and has regressed year after year.Not a cop out.

hellview
11-07-2008, 01:32 PM
Russel Martin is similar to A.J, but A.J. had a statistically better year.

You might wanna take another look at the numbers.

mzh
11-07-2008, 01:32 PM
That's an absolute cop out. He's never been good at it and has regressed year after year.

But it's true. I don't need to say how many times I've seen Floyd or Vazquez not even look at the runner while he takes a 5-step lead.

wulfy
11-07-2008, 01:32 PM
2) He has great speed, and base stealing prowess.

I like that word. Make a point to myself to use it later today.

"Hey man, you have real beer-drinking prowess."

Nice. :smile:

mzh
11-07-2008, 01:34 PM
You might wanna take another look at the numbers.

Martin hit .280 with 13 Homers, A.J. hit .281 with 13 Homers, and A.J. suffered in the 2 spot after TCQ went down, and hive avg. plummeted. I can explain in detail if you want.

Craig Grebeck
11-07-2008, 01:34 PM
But it's true. I don't need to say how many times I've seen Floyd or Vazquez not even look at the runner while he takes a 5-step lead.
And then AJ two hops it into the outfield. He has a weak arm, always has. It's not a matter of the pitchers not looking, that's a terrible excuse. It's a matter of the runner knowing AJ simply sucks at throwing guys out.

btrain929
11-07-2008, 01:34 PM
If fielding percentage cannot judge how good a fielder somebody is, this argument is based completely on opinions, which it is anyway, and I am interested in your opinions, and as far as I can tell, you have given me no examples of how A.J. is a bad fielding catcher, and I still don't see who you think is a better catcher than A.J. Give me some more reason besides just blatant opinions, and then I might start to see the point you are trying to make.

Slightly off-topic, but:

longest.run-on.sentence.ever.

Craig Grebeck
11-07-2008, 01:34 PM
Martin hit .280 with 13 Homers, A.J. hit .281 with 13 Homers, and A.J. suffered in the 2 spot after TCQ went down, and hive avg. plummeted. I can explain in detail if you want.
And Martin had a .385 OBP and walked more times than he struck out.

hellview
11-07-2008, 01:36 PM
Martin hit .280 with 13 Homers, A.J. hit .281 with 13 Homers, and A.J. suffered in the 2 spot after TCQ went down, and hive avg. plummeted. I can explain in detail if you want.

WOW?!?

Judging players off nothing but batting average and homers...you really know nothing about baseball.

Just stop please.

mzh
11-07-2008, 01:36 PM
And then AJ two hops it into the outfield. He has a weak arm, always has. It's not a matter of the pitchers not looking, that's a terrible excuse. It's a matter of the runner knowing AJ simply sucks at throwing guys out.

I must disagree about A.J. two hopping it into the outfield. I was a catcher myself for a long time, and as long as the ball gets there on target and it is not 3 feet above his head, the fielder should get it.

btrain929
11-07-2008, 01:37 PM
Martin hit .280 with 13 Homers, A.J. hit .281 with 13 Homers, and A.J. suffered in the 2 spot after TCQ went down, and hive avg. plummeted. I can explain in detail if you want.

Oh for the love of whoever you pray to, do not compare Martin to AJ. Way to leave out Martin's 18 SB's and .385 OBP for starters...

SoxNation05
11-07-2008, 01:37 PM
I must disagree about A.J. two hopping it into the outfield. I was a catcher myself for a long time, and as long as the ball gets there on target and it is not 3 feet above his head, the fielder should get it.
This isn't tee ball.

Paulwny
11-07-2008, 01:38 PM
AJ could never throw goes out, dating back to his time with the Twins and year with the Giants.


By no means am I saying AJ is a great defensive catcher, but never in my life have I ever seen so many bases stolen with no throw from a catcher.
Cooper needs to work on this problem.

mzh
11-07-2008, 01:39 PM
WOW?!?

Judging players off nothing but batting average and homers...you really know nothing about baseball.

Just stop please.

Okay, Martin had 9 more RBI's than A.J. They are within 5 hits of eachother. A.J. had more total bases. You want any more?

veeter
11-07-2008, 01:42 PM
By no means am I saying AJ is a great defensive catcher, but never in my life have I ever seen so many bases stolen with no throw from a catcher.
Cooper needs to work on this problem.AJ brings a lot to the table. He's not a gold glover, but he's good for this staff. He blocks everything. He works hard for a staff that throw a lot of 56 footers. If anything drives me nuts about AJ, it's that he swings at pitches, that if he let them go, they would have hit him. But overall he's done the Sox uniform proud.

Craig Grebeck
11-07-2008, 01:42 PM
Okay, Martin had 9 more RBI's than A.J. They are within 5 hits of eachother. A.J. had more total bases. You want any more?
Yes, please.

mzh
11-07-2008, 01:43 PM
please elaborate

hellview
11-07-2008, 01:43 PM
Okay, Martin had 9 more RBI's than A.J. They are within 5 hits of eachother. A.J. had more total bases. You want any more?

You really know nothing about baseball.

mzh
11-07-2008, 01:44 PM
You really know nothing about baseball.

What more do I need to know?

kittle42
11-07-2008, 01:45 PM
I made that pink for a reason. I think it would be a stretch to expect that type of deal. Getz<Gardner. Swisher<Cano.

Perhaps a deal like that would work if you throw in somebody else. I heard someone earlier say Vazquez for Daniel Cabrera, but Javy already had one stint with the Yankees, and I'm not sure they would want him back. Possibly Anderson-Getz-Swisher = Cano-Gardner/X. Nady?

Wait, wait...Getz and Swisher don't get the job done, but add Anderson of all people in and it works? Ha, ha, ha.

SoxNation05
11-07-2008, 01:46 PM
Wait, wait...Getz and Swisher don't get the job done, but add Anderson of all people in and it works? Ha, ha, ha.
hahah. nice post!

btrain929
11-07-2008, 01:48 PM
My head hurts...

kittle42
11-07-2008, 01:51 PM
There's a ton of festering dog**** in this thread.

hellview
11-07-2008, 01:51 PM
What more do I need to know?

You are judging two player equal cause they play the same position and there batting avg and homers were equel.

mzh
11-07-2008, 01:55 PM
You are judging two player equal cause they play the same position and there batting avg and homers were equel.

in case you did not notice, their RBI's, Hits, and total bases were within 9 of each other.

SoxNation05
11-07-2008, 01:56 PM
You are judging two player equal cause they play the same position and there batting avg and homers were equel.
equel??? equel?equel?
***?

hellview
11-07-2008, 01:59 PM
in case you did not notice, their RBI's, Hits, and total bases were within 9 of each other.


This has got to be a bit, you cannot be serious.

So no other statisical measure matters except ba, hr, rbi, hits and total bases?

kittle42
11-07-2008, 02:00 PM
This has got to be a bit, you cannot be serious.

So no other statisical measure matters except ba, hr, rbi, hits and total bases?

Well, and any other ones that are within 9 of each other. Check their weights and heights.

mzh
11-07-2008, 02:11 PM
This has got to be a bit, you cannot be serious.

So no other statisical measure matters except ba, hr, rbi, hits and total bases?

Well what else do you want me to do!? Do you want me to say how close together their percentage of reaching second base in one game is? Jeez, lighten up.

hellview
11-07-2008, 02:17 PM
Well what else do you want me to do!? Do you want me to say how close together their percentage of reaching second base in one game is? Jeez, lighten up.

OBP, SLG, OPS.

The fact that Martin is light years ahead of AJ defensively. The fact that AJ plays in a hitters park while Martin plays the majority of his games in stadiums that are murder on right handers.

Over By There
11-07-2008, 02:28 PM
I can see why some posters are questioning his character. He was benched by Girardi last season for dogging it. Now I don't think that means he's a bad a guy or a clubhouse cancer but, he is obviously unhappy in NY and could probably be had for relatively cheap because he is wearing out his welcome in NY.

Here is the link:

http://newyork.yankees.mlb.com/news/article.jsp?ymd=20080915&content_id=3482499&vkey=news_nyy&fext=.jsp&c_id=nyy

He was benched against the White Sox in September for not hustling on picking up a a ground ball. He was pretty stand up about it though and said it was his fault and he won't let it happen again.

Thanks for the link - I missed that story when it came out.

Huisj
11-07-2008, 02:33 PM
Is this thread about a Cano-Swisher trade, or how good the Sox' catcher is compared to the Dodgers' catcher?

guillen4life13
11-07-2008, 02:43 PM
Everything Grebeck has said has made sense... but I do think that A.J. has to be one of the better catchers when it comes to calling a game. He made his staffs in Minnesota better and he helped the Sox staff get better. In this regard, he is very valuable.

Throwing out runners, he sucks. As a hitter he is slightly above average for a catcher but it's not anything to write home about. His biggest strength is his game calling (and maybe the psychological games he plays).

That said, his pitching staffs haven't helped him with throwing out runners.

turners56
11-07-2008, 02:54 PM
Cano for Swisher straight up is laughable. There's gotta be prospects involved from our side in order for this to be a possibility. Remember when the Dodgers were talking about a Cano for Kemp deal?

Jim Shorts
11-07-2008, 03:11 PM
Everything Grebeck has said has made sense... but I do think that A.J. has to be one of the better catchers when it comes to calling a game. He made his staffs in Minnesota better and he helped the Sox staff get better. In this regard, he is very valuable.

Throwing out runners, he sucks. As a hitter he is slightly above average for a catcher but it's not anything to write home about. His biggest strength is his game calling (and maybe the psychological games he plays).

That said, his pitching staffs haven't helped him with throwing out runners.

Plus, he's one of the smartest guys in baseball. He's going to be a fine coach one day.

turners56
11-07-2008, 03:14 PM
Plus, he's one of the smartest guys in baseball. He's going to be a fine coach one day.

Mike Scioscia II in the making.

kittle42
11-07-2008, 03:18 PM
Cano for Swisher straight up is laughable. There's gotta be prospects involved from our side in order for this to be a possibility. Remember when the Dodgers were talking about a Cano for Kemp deal?

Didn't the Yanks bench Cano in September?

hellview
11-07-2008, 03:21 PM
Everything Grebeck has said has made sense... but I do think that A.J. has to be one of the better catchers when it comes to calling a game. He made his staffs in Minnesota better and he helped the Sox staff get better. In this regard, he is very valuable.


2005 Chicago White Sox-3.61 era
2006 Chicago White Sox-4.61 era
2007 Chicago White Sox-4.77 era

So I got a question, I keep hearing AJ calls this great game. Well what the hell happened in 2005 to 2006? Did AJ suddenly forget how to call a game?

If you give me a rotation of CC, Johan, Lincecum and Webb am I suddenly this great game call catcher or am I just catching a talened staff.

turners56
11-07-2008, 03:29 PM
2005 Chicago White Sox-3.61 era
2006 Chicago White Sox-4.61 era
2007 Chicago White Sox-4.77 era

So I got a question, I keep hearing AJ calls this great game. Well what the hell happened in 2005 to 2006? Did AJ suddenly forget how to call a game?

If you give me a rotation of CC, Johan, Lincecum and Webb am I suddenly this great game call catcher or am I just catching a talened staff.

A.J. had the same pitching staff from 05 in 06 + Vazquez, who was actually an improvement over El Duque in 2005. I don't think it's his fault that his pitchers all started to suck in the second half.

turners56
11-07-2008, 03:31 PM
Didn't the Yanks bench Cano in September?

We also benched Swish as well. But, I still think Cano is much more valuable in trades due to his offensive potential at second base.

hellview
11-07-2008, 03:41 PM
A.J. had the same pitching staff from 05 in 06 + Vazquez, who was actually an improvement over El Duque in 2005. I don't think it's his fault that his pitchers all started to suck in the second half.

See that's what I'm talking about. How do you seperate the pitcher and the catcher from who's really doing well or who's really sucking.

It's like Varitek who gets all this love piled on him for his "game calling" But how much is it him and how much is it that Boston has had some good pitchers over the last 8 years.

Madscout
11-07-2008, 03:50 PM
2005 Chicago White Sox-3.61 era
2006 Chicago White Sox-4.61 era
2007 Chicago White Sox-4.77 era

So I got a question, I keep hearing AJ calls this great game. Well what the hell happened in 2005 to 2006? Did AJ suddenly forget how to call a game?

If you give me a rotation of CC, Johan, Lincecum and Webb am I suddenly this great game call catcher or am I just catching a talened staff.
You can contribute most if not all of that to the bullpen. The '05 bullpen was steller. Not the same can be said of the '06 and '07 squads. AJ is good, but he isn't a miricle maker. I doubt any catcher could polish the **** that we threw out in 07.

thomas35forever
11-07-2008, 04:12 PM
I would take Cano since he'll bring some experience to our infield. He's not that much older than Getz, but he seems to be a decent player.

We'd probably have to include Getz or another prospect if we made this deal though. See, this is why I don't plan on becoming a Major League GM.

doublem23
11-07-2008, 04:19 PM
2005 Chicago White Sox-3.61 era
2006 Chicago White Sox-4.61 era
2007 Chicago White Sox-4.77 era

So I got a question, I keep hearing AJ calls this great game. Well what the hell happened in 2005 to 2006? Did AJ suddenly forget how to call a game?

If you give me a rotation of CC, Johan, Lincecum and Webb am I suddenly this great game call catcher or am I just catching a talened staff.

Shockingly, again,most things aren't black and white.

TDog
11-07-2008, 04:51 PM
Slightly off-topic, but:

longest.run-on.sentence.ever.

You obviously have never read James Joyce.

Zisk77
11-07-2008, 05:11 PM
AJ is absolute **** at throwing runners out. He gave up 96 stolen bases this season and only threw out 21 guys.


This is why stats suck. YOU DON"T STEAL BASES ON THE CATCHER YOU STEAL THEM ON THE PITCHER. A.J. doesn't suck at throwing out runners our Pitchers as a staff SUCK at holding runners on base. A. J.'s release is fine and his arm is incredibly AVERAGE. Johnny Bench is not not throwing out a high percentage of base runners with our staff.

Lillian
11-07-2008, 05:19 PM
Gardner is a fourth outfielder. There's better guys to acquire.

OK. So who do you recommend? I hope it isn't someone who would require the Sox trading Dye, or any of our startering pitchers.
We're already short one starter now.

Craig Grebeck
11-07-2008, 05:25 PM
This is why stats suck. YOU DON"T STEAL BASES ON THE CATCHER YOU STEAL THEM ON THE PITCHER. A.J. doesn't suck at throwing out runners our Pitchers as a staff SUCK at holding runners on base. A. J.'s release is fine and his arm is incredibly AVERAGE. Johnny Bench is not not throwing out a high percentage of base runners with our staff.
That's a fallacy.

Zisk77
11-07-2008, 05:33 PM
That's a fallacy.


Fallacy my buttocks.

Stoky44
11-07-2008, 05:37 PM
Nick Swisher does nothing for what the White Sox actually need.-

Of course, the White Sox will need to acquire a new centerfielder. Last offseason the Sox picked up Swisher for the role. His days as a Whtie Sox centerfielder appear over, but it isn't like they are going to turn the job over to Anderson and Wise.

False! The White Sox got Swisher to be a LF who could maybe fill in at CF if needed. The Sox figured either Owens(not wise)/BA for CF. Owens (not Wise) had all that hype coming in. Then assumed TCQ would "hopefully" be the 4th OF. But Owens got hurt, BA had too good of a spring and TCQ looked solid. Thus the sox had to put swisher in CF, b/c TCQ cannot play CF and kept BA b/c he had a solid spring.

Craig Grebeck
11-07-2008, 05:38 PM
False! The White Sox got Swisher to be a LF who could maybe fill in at CF if needed. The Sox figured either Wise/BA for CF. Wise had all that hype coming in. Then assumed TCQ would "hopefully" be the 4th OF. But Owens got hurt, BA had too good of a spring and TCQ looked solid. Thus the sox had to put swisher in CF, b/c TCQ cannot play CF and kept BA b/c he had a solid spring.
Who hyped Wise?

Stoky44
11-07-2008, 05:53 PM
Who hyped Wise?

Sorry ment to say owens.

turners56
11-07-2008, 05:55 PM
Sorry ment to say owens.

Who hyped Owens?

kittle42
11-07-2008, 06:23 PM
Who hyped Owens?

Ozzie.

TDog
11-07-2008, 07:24 PM
False! The White Sox got Swisher to be a LF who could maybe fill in at CF if needed. The Sox figured either Owens(not wise)/BA for CF. Owens (not Wise) had all that hype coming in. Then assumed TCQ would "hopefully" be the 4th OF. But Owens got hurt, BA had too good of a spring and TCQ looked solid. Thus the sox had to put swisher in CF, b/c TCQ cannot play CF and kept BA b/c he had a solid spring.

Swiaher was acquired as a centerfieler who would play other positions. Team officials announced as much when they traded for him. As it turned out, the Sox signed Ramirez, who started in center on opening day, moving Swisher to left. There is no way Swisher plays left if Quentin is healthy. He won't start in right with a healthy Dye and he won't start at first with a healthy Konerko. If Konerko is not a centerfielder (and he is not), there really is no place for him on the team (and by September there wasn't).

Like it or not, Swisher was acquired as a centerfielder.

BadBobbyJenks
11-07-2008, 07:50 PM
For what its worth, Keith Law said he has not heard from anyone credible that Swisher is "being shopped". He said Vazquez is definitely available.

EuroSox35
11-07-2008, 07:54 PM
This the type of deal you do in a second and then move over to the next room for the mugshot picture

gr8mexico
11-07-2008, 08:40 PM
For what its worth, Keith Law said he has not heard from anyone credible that Swisher is "being shopped". He said Vazquez is definitely available.
I wonder what Kenny has planned if he does trade Vazquez.
When can teams start signing FA players?

BadBobbyJenks
11-07-2008, 08:44 PM
I wonder what Kenny has planned if he does trade Vazquez.
When can teams start signing FA players?

I know filing for free agency goes until November 13th. So I assume it starts the next day.

Tragg
11-07-2008, 09:53 PM
I Found this to be interesting. While I'm a big fan of Swish, I'd trade him in a package for Cano in a heartbeat.


"Package" for Cano suggests he's some elite player. ...he averages 15 homers a year and a .335 obp (on an obp focused team - imagine what he'd do with Guillen and Walker coaching him). He's also slow.
Why do we want to give up talent for this player?

turners56
11-07-2008, 09:58 PM
"Package" for Cano suggests he's some elite player. ...he averages 15 homers a year and a .335 obp (on an obp focused team - imagine what he'd do with Guillen and Walker coaching him). He's also slow.
Why do we want to give up talent for this player?

Because he's got a bunch of upside. He's very much like Alexei Ramirez, except left handed, not as fast, and with less pop. He will hit for a very high average and not walk a lot. That doesn't mean he's Juan Uribe though. He has good power, much like Alexei, along with the ability to drive the ball to the gaps. His defense is poor and he is not all that fast for a 2B. But for what it's worth, his offensive upside is enormous. I would put him in the .300+ 25 HR 100 RBI category if everything goes right for him in a season. I was talking to a Yankees fan earlier and he laughed at this proposal. He told me that Cano's had a hard time in his first few years staying consistent for an entire season. He's one of those guys who will struggle for one half and light it up in another. If we can make a deal for this guy with the center piece as Swisher, I would do it in a heartbeat.

Zisk77
11-07-2008, 11:58 PM
"Package" for Cano suggests he's some elite player. ...he averages 15 homers a year and a .335 obp (on an obp focused team - imagine what he'd do with Guillen and Walker coaching him). He's also slow.
Why do we want to give up talent for this player?


No, he's not.

DoItForDanPasqua
11-08-2008, 11:39 AM
We don't need speed. We need good hitters. I don't think Robinson is a very good hitter, but I think he's above average. That's more important than speed.

We don't need speed? Is the plan to sit back and wait for the home run again this year?

turners56
11-08-2008, 01:36 PM
We don't need speed? Is the plan to sit back and wait for the home run again this year?

We don't need blazing speed. Cano has average speed, meaning he won't clog the bases all the time.

Brian26
11-08-2008, 02:19 PM
This the type of deal you do in a second and then move over to the next room for the mugshot picture

:rolling:

Bucky F. Dent
11-08-2008, 03:37 PM
Wow. Somebody farts in the wind about Robinson Cano, and we give it thirteen pages in two days.

Gonna be a long offseason.

BTW, I'd do the Swisher for Cano deal in a heartbeat. Let Girardi figure out where to play him!

Lip Man 1
11-08-2008, 08:43 PM
Bucky:

For what it's worth about three weeks ago on XM satellite radio, one of the Yankee beat writers revealed that Kenny went after Cano at the all star break and would be pursuing him actively this off season.

This thread didn't just pop up out of thin air, there has been some talk behind the possible move.

Lip

BadBobbyJenks
11-09-2008, 02:32 AM
Bucky:

For what it's worth about three weeks ago on XM satellite radio, one of the Yankee beat writers revealed that Kenny went after Cano at the all star break and would be pursuing him actively this off season.

This thread didn't just pop up out of thin air, there has been some talk behind the possible move.

Lip


Was Swisher part of those talks? If not then it did pop out of thin air.

Lip Man 1
11-09-2008, 12:02 PM
Bad:

Don't know a thing about Swisher but at least one mainstream reporter says Kenny has been after Cano.

Lip

BadBobbyJenks
11-09-2008, 08:09 PM
Bad:

Don't know a thing about Swisher but at least one mainstream reporter says Kenny has been after Cano.

Lip

Right, I remember reading about Cano at the deadline this season, but this Swisher rumor seems bogus. I really don't think Kenny is shopping him at all.

TDog
11-09-2008, 11:36 PM
Right, I remember reading about Cano at the deadline this season, but this Swisher rumor seems bogus. I really don't think Kenny is shopping him at all.

If you shake the White Sox, Swisher easily falls out. He wasn't a good fit for the White Sox last year. It is only logical to expect his name to come up in trade talks.

Lukin13
11-10-2008, 09:15 AM
If you shake the White Sox, Swisher easily falls out. He wasn't a good fit for the White Sox last year. It is only logical to expect his name to come up in trade talks.

In order for Swisher to be a "bad" fit for the '08 Sox all had to happen:

#1 TCQ beats out both BA and Owens for the starting outfield spot. This had to be less than a 50% chance, if you remember Carlos' health was a big question mark last March.
#2 PK, JD, Thome all needed to stay healthy and remain on the roster through Spring Training.
#3 Swisher had to show he couldn't handle CF defensively. Very smart posters on this board told me repeatedly that Swisher would be an "average" Center Fielder, a few stated they couldn't name ten better than him.

Obviously, this all took place, but it just seemed when KW added Swish that there would be plenty of opportunities for him.

I have a feeling that even if Kenny cannot move JD or PK that we will still see Swisher with the Sox next season. I bet Kenny adds a decent CF, but not someone that you just hand the job to. If this happens so you will have Swisher as the second option at five positions that include a guy coming off wrist surgery, three injury prone older veterans and an unproven center fielder.

Britt Burns
11-10-2008, 09:56 AM
Although I think Cano is overrated, I'd trade Swish for him in a heartbeat.

Foulke You
11-10-2008, 10:01 AM
Right, I remember reading about Cano at the deadline this season, but this Swisher rumor seems bogus. I really don't think Kenny is shopping him at all.
KW has repeatedly said there are few untouchables on his team and he always listens to offers. It could be that KW isn't actively dangling Swisher but that a team like the Yankees could have interest in him and has inquired about him.

LoveYourSuit
11-10-2008, 10:48 AM
If you shake the White Sox, Swisher easily falls out. He wasn't a good fit for the White Sox last year. It is only logical to expect his name to come up in trade talks.


Swisher IMO has the most trade value of all the names we have been dangling from our clutter of slow aging middle of the order guys. Because Swisher is young and has a very nice contract for another team to pick up.

For this reason, trading Swisher is great idea because he will net us the best return (like a Cano) in any deal.

And yes, Swisher no longer fits in with us because of the break out year of Carlos Quentin. Swisher was brough in there assuming LF would remain vacant in the Spring and Owens would have stayed healthy in the Spring to open up as the everyday CF. Did not work this way. Swisher was forced to lead off and play CF.