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russ99
11-04-2008, 09:46 AM
I wonder if we'd get back Luis Castillo and Aaron Heilman?

Castillo is one of Ozzie's guys from way back and isn't a bad option at #2 hitter, despite his poor season last year.

Heilman would fit into the rotation nicely. Castillo's contract isn't a good one, so maybe we'd get a prospect or two taking him off the Mets hands.

Lukin13
11-04-2008, 09:53 AM
Heilman would fit into the rotation nicely.

Heilman is a reliever.

oeo
11-04-2008, 10:02 AM
I wonder if we'd get back Luis Castillo and Aaron Heilman?

I know you're probably trying to make it as objective as possible, but that is a terrible return for Javy.

palehozenychicty
11-04-2008, 10:15 AM
I wonder if we'd get back Luis Castillo and Aaron Heilman?

Castillo is one of Ozzie's guys from way back and isn't a bad option at #2 hitter, despite his poor season last year.

Heilman would fit into the rotation nicely. Castillo's contract isn't a good one, so maybe we'd get a prospect or two taking him off the Mets hands.


Castillo is finished. He barely played the last month of the season when he was finally healthy and the Twins gave him away for potato chips last year at the deadline. I still can't believe that Minaya gave him a 4-year deal after he was lucky to get a one-year contract with the Twins.

As for Heilman, I have a soft spot for him since I watched him play in college. He's wanted to start for years, and I think he needs a change of scenery, and would be a decent option at five. But he's only a two-pitch pitcher, and that just won't cut it in the AL. If Cooper think he can throw a slider, then he's a good risk.

Over By There
11-04-2008, 10:18 AM
I wonder if we'd get back Luis Castillo and Aaron Heilman?

As ready as I am for the Javier Vazquez experiment to be over, I'd rather keep him than get that garbage.

russ99
11-04-2008, 10:38 AM
I know you're probably trying to make it as objective as possible, but that is a terrible return for Javy.

Well, Javy's numbers are down and it's known he's in the doghouse. We won't get top-dollar for him, regardless of the stuff he has.

I'd love to see the Sox expand the package to get Reyes, but that probably won't happen.

Who else do the Mets have that can fit our need positions? And please not just prospects.

btrain929
11-04-2008, 10:42 AM
Well, Javy's numbers are down and it's known he's in the doghouse. We won't get top-dollar for him.

I'd love to see the Sox expand the package to get Reyes, but that probably won't happen.

Who else do the Mets have that can fit our need positions?

My guess is nobody that could help our '09 squad. They have a young lefty SP that looks good (but we already have a lot of lefty SP's), a couple of good looking 1B prospects (Konerko's replacement?), and a 2B/3B guy. But again, they wouldn't have a spot on our opening day '09 roster. The only guy that would help us in '09 would be Heilman out of the pen.

I still say that I'll be shocked if we trade Vazquez this offseason.

Law11
11-04-2008, 10:54 AM
The articles today talked about how KW has seen Porida (sp) and could be in the rotation come next year. KW saying I'm not blind at what Im seeing..

oeo
11-04-2008, 10:55 AM
Well, Javy's numbers are down and it's known he's in the doghouse. We won't get top-dollar for him, regardless of the stuff he has.

Castillo is broken down, and Heilman is coming off an awful year. Say what you want about Javy, but he's a dependable starting pitcher. An old, broken down 2B, and a 30-year-old reliever that is coming off a terrible year who was highly overrated in the first place is not a good return.

BTW, the Mets view any deal as a "pipe dream." They don't think they match up well.

btrain929
11-04-2008, 10:56 AM
The articles today talked about how KW has seen Porida (sp) and could be in the rotation come next year. KW saying I'm not blind at what Im seeing..

Well if that's true, I'd rather have Mark, John, Gavin, Javy, and Aaron instead of Mark, John, Gavin, Aaron, and Clayton.

Now a 3rd option I wouldn't be opposed to would be Mark, John, Gavin, Aaron, _____ FA SP, with Richard out of the pen. But the FA would have to be a quality guy, not a reclamation like Mulder, etc.

oeo
11-04-2008, 10:58 AM
Well if that's true, I'd rather have Mark, John, Gavin, Javy, and Aaron instead of Mark, John, Gavin, Aaron, and Clayton.

I don't see any chance of four lefties in the rotation.

I don't think Kenny wants to take on another contract if he trades Javy. That money would be opened up to sign another pitcher.

turners56
11-04-2008, 11:04 AM
I know you're probably trying to make it as objective as possible, but that is a terrible return for Javy.

We won't get anything better back from the Mets though.

champagne030
11-04-2008, 11:10 AM
The articles today talked about how KW has seen Porida (sp) and could be in the rotation come next year. KW saying I'm not blind at what Im seeing..

Sounds like Kenny is trying to talk up the value of Poreda.

Craig Grebeck
11-04-2008, 11:12 AM
Sometimes, it might be best to actually hold onto a young pitcher like Poreda. I doubt Kenny trades him this offseason.

areilly
11-04-2008, 11:15 AM
Castillo is broken down, and Heilman is coming off an awful year. Say what you want about Javy, but he's a dependable starting pitcher.

Dependable like he doesn't get hurt? Or dependable like you can depend on him crapping his pants under pressure?

LoveYourSuit
11-04-2008, 11:19 AM
Sounds like Kenny is trying to talk up the value of Poreda.


I think that Poreda will make the bullpen next season, I think a starter would be a stretch.

As for giving up Javy for nothing? No thanks. A 200 inning pitcher who will strikeout 200 is still a huge asset IMO regardless of his big game meltdowns.

I have not problem with Javy being a #3 or #4. It's when you have him at 1 and 2 wher you run into trouble with him.

Now, show me a 1 yr rental trade like what we saw with the OC for Garland.... then I might consider it. But the impact player better be as good as OC if not better, we need a hole filled up.

A 1 yr rental that comes to mind always is Brian Roberts. But then you are looking for a 3rd team on the deal to take Javy we get Roberts and the Orioiles get 2 prospects from that 3rd team and a Broadway type from us.

oeo
11-04-2008, 11:23 AM
Dependable like he doesn't get hurt? Or dependable like you can depend on him crapping his pants under pressure?

I think you know what I meant. You can depend on him being out there every fifth day, and eat up some innings at the very least. The Mets rotation has been for the most part a question mark from month-to-month and sometimes even week-to-week. Javy brings some stability.

Castillo? IMO, we have better options at this point his career. Heilman? Again, we have better options already.

champagne030
11-04-2008, 11:23 AM
Sometimes, it might be best to actually hold onto a young pitcher like Poreda. I doubt Kenny trades him this offseason.

Kenny and his staff need to determine if it's likely that Poreda will develop any reasonable secondary pitches. Keep him if they think it's likely or trade him before he gets exposed as a starter against better competition if they don't think he'll develop those pitches.

thomas35forever
11-04-2008, 11:32 AM
I'm confident Poreda will make the roster one way or another at some point next season. Wherever he pitches from remains to be seen of course, but if Bell likes what he's seen out of him, we could see him make a few starts in '09. "Few" is the keyword here though. We need to ease him like we are Broadway. One bad outing in the bigs could mess up his confidence.

turners56
11-04-2008, 11:59 AM
Dependable like he doesn't get hurt? Or dependable like you can depend on him crapping his pants under pressure?

The first one. He sucked last year.

Lip Man 1
11-04-2008, 12:24 PM
Chris DeLuca of the Sun Times made a pretty bold statement in his story on this today. He said Vazquez has thrown his last pitch in a Sox uniform under Ozzie.

Lip

whitesox901
11-04-2008, 12:25 PM
I want to keep Javy, his last four starts where horrid, but if he can go 12-12 with a 4.12 ERA 200+ IP and 200+K's i can handle it

CashMan
11-04-2008, 12:29 PM
I want to keep Javy, his last four starts where horrid, but if he can go 12-12 with a 4.12 ERA 200+ IP and 200+K's i can handle it

As a 4th starter, no. As a 5th starter, sure.

ChiSoxFan81
11-04-2008, 12:29 PM
I want to keep Javy, his last four starts where horrid, but if he can go 12-12 with a 4.12 ERA 200+ IP and 200+K's i can handle it

We just need to realize what role he is filling. If he is filling the 4th starter role, then this is acceptable. If we take that mindset, and don't expect him to be an ace or even a 2 or 3, then it is ok. However, that means trusting Buehrle, Floyd, and Danks to be your top 3. If you are willing to put those guys in those roles, then keeping Javy is no big deal. Matter of fact, it's a pretty good deal.

jabrch
11-04-2008, 12:47 PM
Rotoworld today suggests that it might be possible to work something out where we give them Javy and get Fernando Martinez if we take on Luis Castillo. I can't see how that's remotely possible that they'd give us Martinez, but if it is, that would be a hard deal to pass up. Maybe his star has fallen a bit since he was 17/18, but from all accounts, he is a top talent prospect...

Law11
11-04-2008, 01:06 PM
Sounds like Kenny is trying to talk up the value of Poreda.

here's the article read down a bit.
http://www.chicagotribune.com/sports/baseball/whitesox/chi-04-gm-sox-chicagonov04,0,1769835.story

munchman33
11-04-2008, 01:54 PM
Rotoworld today suggests that it might be possible to work something out where we give them Javy and get Fernando Martinez if we take on Luis Castillo. I can't see how that's remotely possible that they'd give us Martinez, but if it is, that would be a hard deal to pass up. Maybe his star has fallen a bit since he was 17/18, but from all accounts, he is a top talent prospect...

Luis Castillo is an overpaid piece of **** at this point in his career. But I'd do that deal in a heartbeat.

Craig Grebeck
11-04-2008, 01:54 PM
Luis Castillo is an overpaid piece of **** at this point in his career. But I'd do that deal in a heartbeat.
Why on earth would you do that?

munchman33
11-04-2008, 01:58 PM
Why on earth would you do that?

Fernando Martinez, as well as filling in the aging veteran part time 2B, part time leadoff guy that will get Getz in the lineup at times this year.

palehozenychicty
11-04-2008, 02:29 PM
Fernando Martinez, as well as filling in the aging veteran part time 2B, part time leadoff guy that will get Getz in the lineup at times this year.

I'd take Martinez in a millisecond, but I don't think Williams wants to pay Castillo. He'll somehow get Minaya to eat that contract. It could happen. I mean, this is Omar Minaya we're talking about. :D:

Craig Grebeck
11-04-2008, 02:50 PM
Fernando Martinez, as well as filling in the aging veteran part time 2B, part time leadoff guy that will get Getz in the lineup at times this year.
So we're trading a valuable commodity for one of the worst contracts in the game and a raw prospect who has a very high probability of failing?

WHERE DO I SIGN?!

Irishsox1
11-04-2008, 02:55 PM
With any offer for Vasquez I'm like Kramer with the coffee company. "We've prepared to offer you a lifetime supply of coffee"..."I'll take it!"

CashMan
11-04-2008, 03:35 PM
With any offer for Vasquez I'm like Kramer with the coffee company. "We've prepared to offer you a lifetime supply of coffee"..."I'll take it!"

Who told you to put the balm on? I didn't tell you to put the balm on. Do you even know what a balm does?

Foulke You
11-04-2008, 06:12 PM
I'd take Martinez in a millisecond, but I don't think Williams wants to pay Castillo. He'll somehow get Minaya to eat that contract. It could happen. I mean, this is Omar Minaya we're talking about. :D:
Minaya was the GM of the Expos when Javy was in Montreal as well and I'm willing to bet he still has as soft spot for him. It is one of the reasons why I thought the Mets could be a logical trade partner for Javy when we first started discussing trading him. I wouldn't mind having Castillo if he is 100% healthy. He was definitely one of those pain in the rear top of the order hitters in his Marlins days but that was a long time ago.

I know this is pipe dream territory but Kenny Williams went hard after Reyes when he was still a prospect. We all know how Kenny likes to eventually "get his guy". Obviously, Javy alone will not land you an all star like Reyes but I wonder if Kenny can come up with a package that gets it done? The Mets need a closer badly but don't want to overpay for Franscisco Rodriguez. As much as I love Bobby Jenks, if we could get Reyes for a package involving Jenks, I think you'd have to do it and take your chances with Thornton closing next year.

munchman33
11-04-2008, 07:11 PM
So we're trading a valuable commodity for one of the worst contracts in the game and a raw prospect who has a very high probability of failing?

WHERE DO I SIGN?!

Javy has value if you pay his salary. No one is giving you anything of value for him with his salary. Whatever "value" you believe Javy really has is misguided.

Prospects have more value than what they could become. Martinez could be a chip in a bigger deal. Not to mention, he'd immediately be the second best prospect in our system.

Craig Grebeck
11-04-2008, 07:13 PM
Javy has value if you pay his salary. No one is giving you anything of value for him with his salary. Whatever "value" you believe Javy really has is misguided.

Prospects have more value than what they could become. Martinez could be a chip in a bigger deal. Not to mention, he'd immediately be the second best prospect in our system.
So who do you suggest we start 33 times in Javy's place?

Daver
11-04-2008, 07:17 PM
So who do you suggest we start 33 times in Javy's place?

Just get one of those pitching machines and put it out there.

munchman33
11-04-2008, 07:18 PM
So who do you suggest we start 33 times in Javy's place?

There are numerous free agents and guys available in trade. You make it seem like Kenny is going to pick up Estaban Loaiza to throw in his place. Kenny's hands aren't completely tied. We're going into the season with 4 good starters and one of Poreda/Broadway/Richard/Contreras throwing fifth. And whoever Kenny picks up will, at the very least, be expected to do better than Javy did this year.

Craig Grebeck
11-04-2008, 08:36 PM
There are numerous free agents and guys available in trade. You make it seem like Kenny is going to pick up Estaban Loaiza to throw in his place. Kenny's hands aren't completely tied. We're going into the season with 4 good starters and one of Poreda/Broadway/Richard/Contreras throwing fifth. And whoever Kenny picks up will, at the very least, be expected to do better than Javy did this year.
That's a horrible way of doing business. I don't see too many guys who will put up his numbers. But, of course, you were the ****ing idiot who said Mark Hendrickson was better.

munchman33
11-04-2008, 08:39 PM
That's a horrible way of doing business. I don't see too many guys who will put up his numbers. But, of course, you were the ****ing idiot who said Mark Hendrickson was better.

There are lots of starters who can post a 4.60 era and lose 16 ballgames. I don't understand why you don't think it's possible for most major league pitchers to do that. Despite your opinion on Javy's talent level, you have to look at it from a replacement perspective. Say Javy's gone...all we need to do is find a pitcher that will surpass those numbers. Well ****. More than half the league does that!

Daver
11-04-2008, 08:41 PM
There are lots of starters who can post a 4.60 era and lose 16 ballgames.

How many of them can also give you 220-250 innings a season?

Craig Grebeck
11-04-2008, 08:41 PM
There are lots of starters who can post a 4.60 era and lose 16 ballgames. I don't understand why you don't think it's possible for most major league pitchers to do that. Despite your opinion on Javy's talent level, you have to look at it from a replacement perspective. Say Javy's gone...all we need to do is find a pitcher that will surpass those numbers. Well ****. More than half the league does that!
You act as though it is certain he will post those numbers. You also act as though half the league can throw 200 innings with fantastic peripherals.

35th and Shields
11-04-2008, 08:48 PM
How many of them can also give you 220-250 innings a season?

6 pitchers in the entire league did that this year and javy was not one of them

munchman33
11-04-2008, 08:51 PM
How many of them can also give you 220-250 innings a season?

I'd rather have 180 good innings then 300 innings of 4.60+ era.

You act as though it is certain he will post those numbers. You also act as though half the league can throw 200 innings with fantastic peripherals.

Peripherals or not, Javy is about as certain to post a bad era and record as there is if we contend. You can say no until you're blue in the face, but history is on my side. And it's not even close.

I don't want to argue that peripherals don't matter. But they're certainly not as important as winning ball games.

Daver
11-04-2008, 08:51 PM
6 pitchers in the entire league did that this year and javy was not one of them

I didn't say he did, I quoted a projection, not a stat, and replied with a possible projection. Munch rarely deals in anything that finds a true basis in reality.

EuroSox35
11-04-2008, 10:01 PM
Ha, should've figured a team as dumb as the Mets would be interested in Vazquez? BUT...Castillo? No. I'd easily rather have Vazquez. Castillo is king of the 'I can't hit the ball out of the infield' club

Foulke You
11-05-2008, 01:13 PM
I'd rather have 180 good innings then 300 innings of 4.60+ era.



Peripherals or not, Javy is about as certain to post a bad era and record as there is if we contend. You can say no until you're blue in the face, but history is on my side. And it's not even close.

I don't want to argue that peripherals don't matter. But they're certainly not as important as winning ball games.
I can't believe this but I definitely find myself agreeing with Munch here. I'm not understanding why people think that Javy is somehow this pitching horse that can't possibly be replaced adequately by KW. I believe he can and will be replaced and our team will be better for it. Munch is absolutely right about Javy's numbers if we are in contention. How much more proof do we need to know that Javy can't be counted on if we find ourselves in another tight Central Division battle next season?

palehozenychicty
11-05-2008, 02:21 PM
Minaya was the GM of the Expos when Javy was in Montreal as well and I'm willing to bet he still has as soft spot for him. It is one of the reasons why I thought the Mets could be a logical trade partner for Javy when we first started discussing trading him. I wouldn't mind having Castillo if he is 100% healthy. He was definitely one of those pain in the rear top of the order hitters in his Marlins days but that was a long time ago.

I know this is pipe dream territory but Kenny Williams went hard after Reyes when he was still a prospect. We all know how Kenny likes to eventually "get his guy". Obviously, Javy alone will not land you an all star like Reyes but I wonder if Kenny can come up with a package that gets it done? The Mets need a closer badly but don't want to overpay for Franscisco Rodriguez. As much as I love Bobby Jenks, if we could get Reyes for a package involving Jenks, I think you'd have to do it and take your chances with Thornton closing next year.


Well, you just cancelled your thought on Castillo, and trust me, it's for the better. I saw him play with the Mets over the last season and a half, and you don't want him on this team unless it's to buy clubhouse groceries.

Back to the latest info, management is taking feelers on Vazquez and that's it. Jon Heyman is a goof, but he's got a basic blog on the GM meetings that is updated fairly often.

link (http://www.fannation.com/si_blogs/hot_stove)