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View Full Version : Are we a good match with STL?


Craig Grebeck
11-03-2008, 11:01 AM
The Cardinals are interested in starting pitching and possibly a bat to protect Pujols. While Ankiel/Ludwick are manning the corners, I'd have to imagine that they'd be somewhat interested in Dye to take over in RF with either Ludwick/Ankiel shifting to CF with Skip Schumaker heading to the bench.

If, for whatever reason, we insist on dealing Javy or Jermaine, it should be to a team like the Cardinals. There's no way we'll be able to get a return involving Colby Rasmus, but we could maybe get something like Adam Ottavino/Bryan Anderson and possibly a relief arm. Ottavino struggled this season but he's got a nice arm. Anderson is one of their most valued prospects and trading chips; he's a catcher who consistently hits for .300 and did well in AAA at the age of 21. Obviously, any of these hypothetical deals would involve Javy OR Jermaine, never both.

Obviously, if we intend on trading Javy, some sort of major league arm will have to come back through trade or free agency. I don't want us to trade Javy or Jermaine, but if we do, we need to shore up our catching depth on the minor/major league level, and invest in good arms like Ottavino -- who is a classic "buy low" guy. He's struggling like hell in the AFL, so we'd have to give his medical history a second look.

whitesox901
11-03-2008, 11:56 AM
We'd have Brian Anderson and Bryan Anderson

btrain929
11-03-2008, 12:47 PM
I thought Bryan Anderson was damn-near MLB ready. I wonder how he'd feel rotting away in the minors for another 2-3 years. Not that he'd have a choice in it, but.....

I probably wouldn't mind Javy for Anderson, but not Dye. If we're trading our best veteran hitter, I want us to fill a hole on our current roster with that move.

Plus, after resigning Lohse to that really bad contract, I don't think they have THAT much money to spare to take on big contracts like Javy/Dye. And IF they do, why not go out and sign Oliver Perez or Pat Burrell instead of give us good prospects to get the same type of player in return?

The only way I could see something like this materialize is if they whiff on some of their targeted FA's and they get desperate.

Craig Grebeck
11-03-2008, 12:52 PM
Anderson still needs to develop some power. He would benefit from half a year in AAA. Honestly, I want to get rid of AJ as soon as possible. He's got no plate discipline and can't throw anyone out.

Tekijawa
11-03-2008, 12:53 PM
Javy for Pujols... Strait up!

btrain929
11-03-2008, 12:58 PM
Anderson still needs to develop some power. He would benefit from half a year in AAA. Honestly, I want to get rid of AJ as soon as possible. He's got no plate discipline and can't throw anyone out.

That's all fine and dandy, but he signed an extension that'll keep him here til 2010, and he has no trade protection....

Craig Grebeck
11-03-2008, 01:02 PM
That's all fine and dandy, but he signed an extension that'll keep him here til 2010, and he has no trade protection....
I'm aware. I'm fairly certain this will go down as one of KW's worst decisions here.

btrain929
11-03-2008, 01:06 PM
I'm aware. I'm fairly certain this will go down as one of KW's worst decisions here.

Especially at a time when the Rangers have 4 really high quality and young catchers on the market waiting to be had for the right deal....

Taliesinrk
11-03-2008, 01:16 PM
I'm aware. I'm fairly certain this will go down as one of KW's worst decisions here.

AJ's got something stats can't measure. I like him here.

hellview
11-03-2008, 01:18 PM
AJ's got something stats can't measure. I like him here.

Hahahahahahahahahahaha...OMG you did not just say that?

Taliesinrk
11-03-2008, 01:42 PM
Hahahahahahahahahahaha...OMG you did not just say that?

hahahahahahahahaha - lol, ttyl, cya, jk, OMG, hehe - hahahahahaha.... yes. i did

palehozenychicty
11-03-2008, 01:48 PM
Anderson still needs to develop some power. He would benefit from half a year in AAA. Honestly, I want to get rid of AJ as soon as possible. He's got no plate discipline and can't throw anyone out.


I concur, that I like AJ, but at the worst we need a backup catcher than can throw guys out since the starters don't hold runners well. Therefore, I hope that Hall doesn't get resigned, cause he can't do anything at all.

hellview
11-03-2008, 02:26 PM
hahahahahahahahaha - lol, ttyl, cya, jk, OMG, hehe - hahahahahaha.... yes. i did

Please tell me what you like about AJ that stats can't measure...and you can't use the word grit or grind.

kittle42
11-03-2008, 02:35 PM
Please tell me what you like about AJ that stats can't measure...and you can't use the word grit or grind.

He has an outstanging Leadership Percentage.

btrain929
11-03-2008, 02:36 PM
He has an outstanging Leadership Percentage.

I read somewhere he's been in the top 5 in all of baseball 3 years in a row....

russ99
11-03-2008, 03:06 PM
I'm aware. I'm fairly certain this will go down as one of KW's worst decisions here.

A.J. may not have a cannon arm, but the man can flat out play, and he handles pitchers as well as anyone in the league, except maybe Varitek. And he's signed relatively cheaply for 2 more years.

Or would you rather go back to the days of Karkovice (who ran slower than Paulie) and his .185 average and a CS every once in a while...
Sheesh. I can think of 15-18 teams that would love to have a catcher as good as A.J.

turners56
11-03-2008, 03:21 PM
Do we need another catcher? A.J. will be here until 2011.

white sox bill
11-03-2008, 03:23 PM
I think what he means are the intangibles that AJ brings. If intensity won batting titles, he'd be giving Ted Williams lessons

spawn
11-03-2008, 03:45 PM
hahahahahahahahaha - lol, ttyl, cya, jk, OMG, hehe - hahahahahaha.... yes. i did
:rolling:

hellview
11-03-2008, 03:57 PM
i think what he means are the intangibles that aj brings. if intensity won batting titles, he'd be giving ted williams lessons

what?!?

Craig Grebeck
11-03-2008, 04:07 PM
A.J. may not have a cannon arm, but the man can flat out play, and he handles pitchers as well as anyone in the league, except maybe Varitek. And he's signed relatively cheaply for 2 more years.

Or would you rather go back to the days of Karkovice (who ran slower than Paulie) and his .185 average and a CS every once in a while...
Sheesh. I can think of 15-18 teams that would love to have a catcher as good as A.J.
That's an incredible understatement.

Karkovice, in his age 28-31 seasons in terms of OPS+: 95, 91, 93, 83.
Pierzynski, same terms: 90, 94, 83, 88.

Pierzynski is so agonizingly bad at throwing guys out. In his four years here, he's given up 327 SB. He has thrown out only 89 guys.

hellview
11-03-2008, 04:14 PM
I can think of 15-18 teams that would love to have a catcher as good as A.J.

Well lets figure it out...

TB-No
BOS-Debatable, but I'm leaning to no for what Varitek means to the rotation.
NYY-No even with Posada hurt. Plus two of there better prospects (Montero and Romain) are catchers.
TOR-No, top prospect J.P. Arencibia is a stud.
BAL-If you don't know about Matt Wieters you better ask somebody.
MIN-Nope
CLE-No
KC-Yes
Det-Yes
LAA-Nope, Napoli finally came into his own.
TEX-More catcher then they know what to do with
SEA-Sitting nicely with two young catchers in Clement and Johnson.

PHL-Top prospect Lou Marson
NYM-Yes
FLM-Yes
ATL-No
WAS-I really like Jesus Flores so I'm going no.
CHI-No
MIL-Top prospect Angel Salamon
HOU-I know Towles bombed in 2008, but has hit everywhere he's been...no
STL-Between Anderson and Molina I'm going no.
CIN-Yes
PIT-No
LAD-No
ARZ-No
COL-No
SAN-Got Posey and Sandoval...no.
SD-Yes


I got 6, 8 or 9 if you wanna debate it.

jabrch
11-03-2008, 04:15 PM
It's funny how much people don't even understand the muses that they follow...

The point of FJM and of the Stats folks isn't that intangibles don't exist and that they have no value. The point is not to overweight them in absence of other contributing factors. People here seem to be making the arguement that if there isn't a statistic for it, you should ignore it. (I know - that's not EVERYONE - but there are some definitely making that case)

Intangibles ARE important. So are tangibles. If you've ever laced 'em up to play any sport, you should know that. The best player or team doesn't always win. There is a high degree of chance, and intangibles play into that.

munchman33
11-03-2008, 04:22 PM
Please tell me what you like about AJ that stats can't measure...and you can't use the word grit or grind.

AJ needs to retire here. Remember when Rowand was traded? The man love since has been downright sickening. It would be threefold for AJ.

turners56
11-03-2008, 04:23 PM
Well lets figure it out...

TB-No
BOS-Debatable, but I'm leaning to no for what Varitek means to the rotation.
NYY-No even with Posada hurt. Plus two of there better prospects (Montero and Romain) are catchers.
TOR-No, top prospect J.P. Arencibia is a stud.
BAL-If you don't know about Matt Wieters you better ask somebody.
MIN-Nope
CLE-No
KC-Yes
Det-Yes
LAA-Nope, Napoli finally came into his own.
TEX-More catcher then they know what to do with
SEA-Sitting nicely with two young catchers in Clement and Johnson.

PHL-Top prospect Lou Marson
NYM-Yes
FLM-Yes
ATL-No
WAS-I really like Jesus Flores so I'm going no.
CHI-No
MIL-Top prospect Angel Salamon
HOU-I know Towles bombed in 2008, but has hit everywhere he's been...no
STL-Between Anderson and Molina I'm going no.
CIN-Yes
PIT-No
LAD-No
ARZ-No
COL-No
SAN-Got Posey and Sandoval...no.
SD-Yes


I got 6, 8 or 9 if you wanna debate it.

Ok, so let's get this straight here.

You're saying that Mike Napoli (who is a horrible defensive catcher), Jarrod Saltalamachia, Gerald Laird, Max Ramirez, Jeff Clement, Chris Coste, Carlos Ruiz, Jason Kendall, Chris Snyder, Chris Ianetta, Yorvit Torrealba, J.R. Towles, an aging Pudge and Posada, are all better than Pierzynski? And plus, remember that prospects are freakin' prospects. I'd rather have an established player who is good in handling pitching staffs and hits well in his early 30s than some catching prospect. Because we all know how hard it is to find a good catcher. Pierzynski's probably one of the top 5 catchers in the AL when it comes to his overall game.

Craig Grebeck
11-03-2008, 04:25 PM
Ok, so let's get this straight here.

You're saying that Mike Napoli (who is a horrible defensive catcher), Jarrod Saltalamachia, Gerald Laird, Max Ramirez, Jeff Clement, Chris Coste, Carlos Ruiz, Jason Kendall, Chris Snyder, Chris Ianetta, Yorvit Torrealba, J.R. Towles, an aging Pudge and Posada, are all better than Pierzynski? And plus, remember that prospects are freakin' prospects. I'd rather have an established player who is good in handling pitching staffs and hits well in his early 30s than some catching prospect. Because we all know how hard it is to find a good catcher. Pierzynski's probably one of the top 5 catchers in the AL when it comes to his overall game.
Laird, Snyder, Ianetta, Torrealba, Towles, Posada: hell yes.

SoxNation05
11-03-2008, 04:27 PM
To respond to the original post.
I think Vazquez could be a good fit for STL. Especially if the Sox could take on some of his salary. But as another poster said their are players very similar on the FA maket. Maybe, after some signings go down they will still be in need. Honestly, I think that Javy is a pretty good deal at 11 million. As for Dye, I think that if Ludwick puts up a similar season as last year they have great protection to Pujols. They need someone at the top of the order rather than in the middle. They already have Ludwick in left and Ankiel in center so that leaves right open. They do have Skip Schumaker who I think is a below average power and doesn't really do anything that well. They also have top prospect Colby Rasmus who is probably ready this year. IMO, I would guess they would give Schumaker the job and if he sucks and Rasmus is playing good ball, he will get the call.

hellview
11-03-2008, 04:27 PM
I have a great question for all these people that claim AJ calls this great game.

If AJ calls this great game what happened in 2006 and 2007 when the pitching went to ****? Did AJ suddenly forget how to call a game for 2 years then suddenly remember for the first half of the 2008 season.

If you give me a rotation of CC, Johan, Webb, Lincecum and Hamels can I suddenly call a great game or am I just catching talented pitchers?

hellview
11-03-2008, 04:30 PM
Ok, so let's get this straight here.

You're saying that Mike Napoli (who is a horrible defensive catcher), Jarrod Saltalamachia, Gerald Laird, Max Ramirez, Jeff Clement, Chris Coste, Carlos Ruiz, Jason Kendall, Chris Snyder, Chris Ianetta, Yorvit Torrealba, J.R. Towles, an aging Pudge and Posada, are all better than Pierzynski? And plus, remember that prospects are freakin' prospects. I'd rather have an established player who is good in handling pitching staffs and hits well in his early 30s than some catching prospect. Because we all know how hard it is to find a good catcher. Pierzynski's probably one of the top 5 catchers in the AL when it comes to his overall game.

Napoli-Yes
Salty-Screw Salty, it's all about Teagarden.
Clement-Yes, great bat, questionable defense.
Coste-No, Lou Marson is gonna be a very good catcher.
Snyder-No, Montero yes.
Ianetta-Yes
Towles-Yes
Posada-Yes

SoxNation05
11-03-2008, 04:30 PM
Ok, so let's get this straight here.

You're saying that Mike Napoli (who is a horrible defensive catcher), Jarrod Saltalamachia, Gerald Laird, Max Ramirez, Jeff Clement, Chris Coste, Carlos Ruiz, Jason Kendall, Chris Snyder, Chris Ianetta, Yorvit Torrealba, J.R. Towles, an aging Pudge and Posada, are all better than Pierzynski? And plus, remember that prospects are freakin' prospects. I'd rather have an established player who is good in handling pitching staffs and hits well in his early 30s than some catching prospect. Because we all know how hard it is to find a good catcher. Pierzynski's probably one of the top 5 catchers in the AL when it comes to his overall game.
I would take those three over A.J. Save money, cheap for many years and their upsides are much better than AJ's. AJ is already past his prime as a hitter. It would also be good to see the Sox get younger.

turners56
11-03-2008, 04:32 PM
Laird, Snyder, Ianetta, Torrealba, Towles, Posada: hell yes.

Posada is 37 and is going to come off of shoulder surgery. I don't know about that.

Gerald Laird was supposed to be real good. He's already 29 and he's barely average.

Snyder is comparable to A.J. when it comes to his overall numbers, but it looks like he'll never hit for average. I'd still take Pierznyski.

I just noticed Ianetta had a nice year in 07, I'll give you that one.

Towles was crap last year, I won't deem him a bust yet, but it's getting there.

turners56
11-03-2008, 04:33 PM
Napoli-Yes
Salty-Screw Salty, it's all about Teagarden.
Clement-Yes, great bat, questionable defense.
Coste-No, Lou Marson is gonna be a very good catcher.
Snyder-No, Montero yes.
Ianetta-Yes
Towles-Yes
Posada-Yes

.227 is a great bat? Not to mention a .360 SLG% from a guy who's supposed to hit for power.

hellview
11-03-2008, 04:38 PM
.227 is a great bat? Not to mention a .360 SLG% from a guy who's supposed to hit for power.

Tough crowd, the guy is a damn rookie who's had 219 MLB at bats. He's got a .871 OPS in the minors, the guy rakes.

kittle42
11-03-2008, 04:57 PM
Tough crowd, the guy is a damn rookie who's had 219 MLB at bats. He's got a .871 OPS in the minors, the guy rakes.

We can't judge him until he has 1,000 MLB at-bats.

russ99
11-03-2008, 09:02 PM
Laird, Snyder, Ianetta, Torrealba, Towles, Posada: hell yes.

I'm an Astros fan and Towles has had such a bad year, the Astros are looking for a catcher and may even rush up recent draftee Jason Castro or maybe go with Lou Santangelo and Humberto Quintero as a tandem. They're especially in bad shape considering Ausmus is a FA and may retire. They're rumored to be after Josh Bard as a stopgap, so that tells you how low things are at catcher in Houston.

So, yeah. They'd certainly take A.J.

It seems to me you're discounting A.J.'s other strengths because he can't throw guys out... which isn't entirely his fault. Our pitchers (other than Mark, who doesn't have the best fastball in the world) are notorious for not holding runners on. And I'm still convinced he's a bit overworked. If we had a better backup (Blanco anyone?) he wouldn't wear down at the end of the season as much.

Or maybe you're clouded due to the fact that he's a such royal pain in the ass... :D: But for me, that's just part of the A.J. mystique.