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View Full Version : #1 Priority is trading Vazquez?


Sockinchisox
10-31-2008, 01:41 AM
According to everyone's favorite beat reporter, "sources" confirmed to the Sun-Times that KW wants to unload Vazquez and it is his number one priority this offseason.

Maybe he wants to unload Vazquez but to say that it's the number 1 priority is crap.

http://www.suntimes.com/sports/baseball/whitesox/1252225,CST-SPT-sox31.article

BadBobbyJenks
10-31-2008, 02:38 AM
My number one priority this off season is not believing a word Joe Cowley says.

btrain929
10-31-2008, 03:24 AM
This just doesn't make sense. If we traded Javy to fill a 3B/2B/CF hole, that would leave us with 3 SP's to open the year in Buehrle, Danks, and Gavin. Richard MAYBE is ok as a 5th starter with 4 proven guys ahead of him. But him as a #4? No way. Unless KW has his eye on a FA SP reclamation like Pedro, Brad Penny, Mulder, etc.

I call bull****.

WhiteSox5187
10-31-2008, 03:34 AM
I'm certainly not a fan of Javy, but I really dont think trading him makes any sense unless you're getting another pitcher back in return.

oeo
10-31-2008, 04:01 AM
Cowley is such an idiot.

gr8mexico
10-31-2008, 11:25 AM
If the Sox do decide to trade Vazquez they need to sign a better pitcher then Vazquez. You never know but KW might actually make a run at C.C. If they do dump Vazquez.

Rockabilly
10-31-2008, 11:39 AM
I hope the Sox do trade Vazquez ..

Zisk77
10-31-2008, 11:43 AM
If the Sox do decide to trade Vazquez they need to sign a better pitcher then Vazquez. You never know but KW might actually make a run at C.C. If they do dump Vazquez.


Better chance it would be Garland or someone like Garland...

PalehosePlanet
10-31-2008, 11:50 AM
I'm certainly not a fan of Javy, but I really dont think trading him makes any sense unless you're getting another pitcher back in return.

Unless KW's eyeing a pitcher in a different trade or possibly an FA signing like Ben Sheets at about 15 million per year.

Also, I know Javy has a limited NTC in his contract where he won't play on the west coast and a few other teams. That could make a trade a little more difficult to pull off.

gr8mexico
10-31-2008, 12:04 PM
Unless KW's eyeing a pitcher in a different trade or possibly an FA signing like Ben Sheets at about 15 million per year.

Also, I know Javy has a limited NTC in his contract where he won't play on the west coast and a few other teams. That could make a trade a little more difficult to pull off.
Vazquez has a limited NO-TRADE clause that allows him to veto trades to the nine AL and NL West teams . That shouldn't be a problem, both teams in NY could be interested. Especially if KW signed a player like C.C making the FA pool of Pitchers thinner.

Lip Man 1
10-31-2008, 12:40 PM
This certainly is an interesting story including the line that the Sox may have cooled on Hudson. (If true what would that mean....they couldn't possibly decide to give the position to Nix could they?)

I agree though that if you deal Javy you need pitching in return. Having 2/5 th's of the rotation filled by Broadway and Richard doesn't exactly insire confidence.

Lip

getonbckthr
10-31-2008, 12:55 PM
I'm curious to Javy's value. If we were to sign CC to a deal t like 21 million per season that would mean we are trading Javy. Javy makes 11 million which based on the market could be considered a bargain especially for a team like Milwaukee. Would Javy for Weeks and Hall be even or lop-sided one way or the other remember assuming we are adding CC. Also factor we have 10 million dollars sitting there doing nothing for 09 with Contreras. Starting in 2010 CC's salary would be made up between JAvy + Jose's contracts.

NLaloosh
10-31-2008, 12:59 PM
Javy to the Reds for Homer Bailey, Bill Bray and Jerry Hairston.

pythons007
10-31-2008, 01:17 PM
We aren't signing CC to any kind of contract. He is going to be looking for a huge pay day and a Santana like contract. When was the last time you saw the Sox go out and do this with a free agent?

If we trade Javy then we better sign some kind of FA vet that can pitch half way decent as a number 4. FWIW, if we trade for figgins I want him playing 2B not 3B.

AzureJazzMan
10-31-2008, 01:21 PM
Javier Vazquez, Chris Getz, John Shelby, and Boone Logan
for
Brian Roberts and Daniel Cabrera

Brian Anderson, Josh Fields, and Brandon Allen
for
Adrian Beltre'

Sign...Braden Looper and Mark Mulder (performance laden deal)

Batting Order Could Look Like This...

2B Roberts
SS Ramirez
LF Quentin
RF Dye
3B Beltre'
DH Thome
1B Konerko
C Pierzynski
CF Swisher/Owens

Starting Pitching...

Buehrle
Floyd
Danks
Looper
Cabrera/Mulder (loser in spring training goes to the bullpen)

I think this could work...

BadBobbyJenks
10-31-2008, 01:35 PM
Sign...Braden Looper and Mark Mulder (performance laden deal)

Batting Order Could Look Like This...

2B Roberts
SS Ramirez
LF Quentin
RF Dye
3B Beltre'
DH Thome
1B Konerko
C Pierzynski
CF Swisher/Owens

Starting Pitching...

Buehrle
Floyd
Danks
Looper
Cabrera/Mulder (loser in spring training goes to the bullpen)

I think this could work...

Just say no to Looper.

khan
10-31-2008, 02:32 PM
Javier Vazquez, Chris Getz, John Shelby, and Boone Logan
for
Brian Roberts and Daniel Cabrera
OK, so you REALLY think that the Baltimore will give up the owner's favorite player for a #4 SP, a minor leaguer with minimal pedigree, a LOOGY, and a low-level prospect? Really?

For that matter, why would the SOX want a piece of **** like Cabrera?

Brian Anderson, Josh Fields, and Brandon Allen
for
Adrian Beltre'
Again, why would the SOX give up ANYTHING for a probable PED-cheater who suddenly lost 80 points off his slugging and batting average [and ~40 pounds] after signing an obese contract with Seattle?

If the SOX want Beltre, they should be able to get him for free.

http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Adri%C3%A1n_Beltr%C3%A9#cite_note-3

Sign...Braden Looper
No. He sucks, he's 33, and he's had surgical work done on his shoulder. That's a WHOLE PILE of suck right there.

and Mark Mulder (performance laden deal)
Maybe.

Batting Order Could Look Like This...

2B Roberts
SS Ramirez
LF Quentin
RF Dye
3B Beltre'
DH Thome
1B Konerko
C Pierzynski
CF Swisher/Owens
You're REALLY going to hit Beltre ahead of Konerko and Thome? Do you think OG would? Look at Beltre's numbers since he got off the juice. HE is one of the principle reasons for Seattle sucking balls for the past few seasons.

Starting Pitching...

Buehrle
Floyd
Danks
Looper
Cabrera/Mulder (loser in spring training goes to the bullpen)

I think this could work...
No offense, but I KNOW it would be a travesty. Beltre sucks, and is a likely steroid cheater. Look at his numbers, and look at the player. He's clearly half the man he used to be. Looper is craptacular, old, and surgically-repaired. Roberts won't come for anything less than a king's ransom. Cabrera just plain sucks. The only suggestion that I MIGHT take were I KW is Mark Mulder.

HomeFish
10-31-2008, 02:41 PM
Even if Adrian Beltre never did steroids, its clear that he's a guy who had one career year and tricked a team into giving him tons of money for it. We should be happy that this team wasn't us.

Any five year old could have told you that the Beltre deal was going to be horrible for Seattle the moment it was signed.

russ99
10-31-2008, 02:52 PM
This certainly is an interesting story including the line that the Sox may have cooled on Hudson. (If true what would that mean....they couldn't possibly decide to give the position to Nix could they?)

I agree though that if you deal Javy you need pitching in return. Having 2/5 th's of the rotation filled by Broadway and Richard doesn't exactly insire confidence.

Lip

I refuse to believe that Nix is anything more than a backup or stopgap.

Unless the Sox acquire a top 5 leadoff CF, a #3 starter and a solid hitting 3B, I doubt that a Nix/Getz platoon would happen.

Lukin13
10-31-2008, 02:53 PM
Even if Adrian Beltre never did steroids, its clear that he's a guy who had one career year and tricked a team into giving him tons of money for it. We should be happy that this team wasn't us.

Any five year old could have told you that the Beltre deal was going to be horrible for Seattle the moment it was signed.

You are drunk...

Adrian Beltre for the past three seasons has averaged roughly .270/25/80 in Safeco, all while being hands down the best defenisve third baseman in baseball. You are penalizing him for having a great year in '04?

My only gripe is he is another low OBP guy.

The only AL third baseman that has been better this decade is Arod.

The only AL third baseman that will be better in '09 are Arod, Longoria, and maybe Gordon and Figgins.

Bring him to the Southside Kenny and he is good for .275/30/100 oh yea and a gold glove.

Tragg
10-31-2008, 05:19 PM
Javier Vazquez, Chris Getz, John Shelby, and Boone Logan
for
Brian Roberts and Daniel Cabrera

Brian Anderson, Josh Fields, and Brandon Allen
for
Adrian Beltre'

Cabrera's mediocre at best numbers wise.
Roberts is a rent
Beltre is essentially Crede at twice+ the salary. (fair power; low obp; good glove). Trade our best young players for him?
When you swim through all of it, the only benefit we get over last year really is 1 year of Roberts; and the price is every spare young player we have plus overloading the payroll.
Pass.
3B is going to be a problem, unless Getz or someone can play there.
I think any major trade will have to involve some combination of Dye/Konerko/Javy. I hope we get younger in the deal.
I'm happy with Williams sticking to the minor deals and seeing if he can roll a yahtzee again.

btrain929
10-31-2008, 05:30 PM
Cabrera's mediocre at best numbers wise.
Roberts is a rent
Beltre is essentially Crede at twice+ the salary. (fair power; low obp; good glove). Trade our best young players for him?
When you swim through all of it, the only benefit we get over last year really is 1 year of Roberts; and the price is every spare young player we have.
Pass.
3B is going to be a problem, unless Getz or someone can play there.

While I agree the ridiculous trades mentioned above won't happen, the bolded statement is just as ridiculous. Outside of 2006, Beltre has done significantly better than Crede in almost every year of their careers. Crede hasn't had a good glove or a good back in 2 years, while Beltre is very durable. Not to mention Beltre actually has decent speed and, in '09 (his contract year), he can net us Type A compensation if he walks as a FA after '09. So, no, Beltre is not essentially Crede.

Craig Grebeck
10-31-2008, 05:30 PM
OK, so you REALLY think that the Baltimore will give up the owner's favorite player for a #4 SP, a minor leaguer with minimal pedigree, a LOOGY, and a low-level prospect? Really?

For that matter, why would the SOX want a piece of **** like Cabrera?


Again, why would the SOX give up ANYTHING for a probable PED-cheater who suddenly lost 80 points off his slugging and batting average [and ~40 pounds] after signing an obese contract with Seattle?

If the SOX want Beltre, they should be able to get him for free.

http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Adri%C3%A1n_Beltr%C3%A9#cite_note-3


No. He sucks, he's 33, and he's had surgical work done on his shoulder. That's a WHOLE PILE of suck right there.


Maybe.


You're REALLY going to hit Beltre ahead of Konerko and Thome? Do you think OG would? Look at Beltre's numbers since he got off the juice. HE is one of the principle reasons for Seattle sucking balls for the past few seasons.


No offense, but I KNOW it would be a travesty. Beltre sucks, and is a likely steroid cheater. Look at his numbers, and look at the player. He's clearly half the man he used to be. Looper is craptacular, old, and surgically-repaired. Roberts won't come for anything less than a king's ransom. Cabrera just plain sucks. The only suggestion that I MIGHT take were I KW is Mark Mulder.
Beltre is a bargain. This is probably the worst post I've ever read on this board.

turners56
10-31-2008, 05:38 PM
What's with all this Beltre love? He's nothing more than Joe Crede without the back problems.

Like Crede, he has good power, he's a mediocre hitter, doesn't walk a ton, good fielder, barely above average OPS. He's nothing special.

And worst of all, you're going to end up paying him $13 million a year.

Craig Grebeck
10-31-2008, 05:40 PM
What's with all this Beltre love? He's nothing more than Joe Crede without the back problems.

Like Crede, he has good power, he's a mediocre hitter, doesn't walk a ton, good fielder, barely above average OPS. He's nothing special.

And worst of all, you're going to end up paying him $13 million a year.
Does anybody around here bother to look at home/road splits? Anyone?

longtimesoxguy
10-31-2008, 05:40 PM
John Garland wants back in. He never sold his condo because he wanted to see how things played out. He loves Chicago

Tragg
10-31-2008, 05:50 PM
While I agree the ridiculous trades mentioned above won't happen, the bolded statement is just as ridiculous. Outside of 2006, Beltre has done significantly better than Crede in almost every year of their careers. Crede hasn't had a good glove or a good back in 2 years, while Beltre is very durable. Not to mention Beltre actually has decent speed and, in '09 (his contract year), he can net us Type A compensation if he walks as a FA after '09. So, no, Beltre is not essentially Crede.
health, I agree.
But the point is that Beltre is not a particularly good hitter - mid 20ss in homers, .320-.330 obp. Is it better than Crede? Yea. Is it good? No.
Is this the kind of hitter we need? Is this how we're looking to spend our moeny? I hope not.

Garland may want in, but do we want him? He didn't have a good year and I don't think he pitched in the playoffs.

Craig Grebeck
10-31-2008, 05:52 PM
health, I agree.
But the point is that Beltre is not a particularly good hitter - mid 20ss in homers, .320-.330 obp. Is it better than Crede? Yea. Is it good? No.
Is this the kind of hitter we need? Is this how we're looking to spend our moeny? I hope not.

Garland may want in, but do we want him? He didn't have a good year and I don't think he pitched in the playoffs.
Anyone? Home/road splits? Anyone?

Tragg
10-31-2008, 06:06 PM
Anyone? Home/road splits? Anyone?
Yea, he does better on the road. Safeco's tough on hitters.
I think he's a rent too.

Help me understand these road/home splits. He's hit a total of 9 more homers outside of Safeco than in Safeco in 4 years. His OPS edges come from more singles and doubles. Why is Safeco a difficult place to hit singles and doubles? It's not overloaded with foul ground. There's a lot of outfield to patrol. Would those doubles be homers in Chicago or long outs?
Is it merely coincidence?
Or does he just play better away from home?

Taliesinrk
10-31-2008, 06:06 PM
Beltre is a bargain. This is probably the worst post I've ever read on this board.

Worse than mine?

Zisk77
10-31-2008, 06:08 PM
health, I agree.
But the point is that Beltre is not a particularly good hitter - mid 20ss in homers, .320-.330 obp. Is it better than Crede? Yea. Is it good? No.
Is this the kind of hitter we need? Is this how we're looking to spend our moeny? I hope not.

Garland may want in, but do we want him? He didn't have a good year and I don't think he pitched in the playoffs.


God yes. Garland in the back of our rotation would be great especially if we really intend on trading Javy. Jon will win 13-18 games for us and keep the ball in the ball park.

His year in anaheim was so-so.

Beltre is a bad contract and more of the same kind of slow footed hitter we have.

Baltimore will want a lot for Roberts but NOT a king's ransom like they wanted last year because he is in his walk year. Now a solid offer probably gets him, although the more bidders on him the more Balt is going to get.

Not sure trading for Roberts would be a rental. He is never been on a winner and may choose to sign a reasonable contract if he likes where he's at...its a risk.

candlesticks make a great wedding present.

Bucky F. Dent
10-31-2008, 06:17 PM
We've got holes at third, second, and center, and our number one priority is to deal our number four starter.

Try again, Joe!

btrain929
10-31-2008, 06:17 PM
God yes. Garland in the back of our rotation would be great especially if we really intend on trading Javy. Jon will win 13-18 games for us and keep the ball in the ball park.

His year in anaheim was so-so.

Beltre is a bad contract and more of the same kind of slow footed hitter we have.

Baltimore will want a lot for Roberts but NOT a king's ransom like they wanted last year because he is in his walk year. Now a solid offer probably gets him, although the more bidders on him the more Balt is going to get.

Not sure trading for Roberts would be a rental. He is never been on a winner and may choose to sign a reasonable contract if he likes where he's at...its a risk.

candlesticks make a great wedding present.

Bold 1: Outside of wins, he was flat out bad this year.....in a pitcher's park.
Bold 2: Beltre is twice as fast as Crede and has had 10+ sb's 2 of the last 3 years.

Craig Grebeck
10-31-2008, 06:25 PM
God yes. Garland in the back of our rotation would be great especially if we really intend on trading Javy. Jon will win 13-18 games for us and keep the ball in the ball park.

His year in anaheim was so-so.

Beltre is a bad contract and more of the same kind of slow footed hitter we have.

Baltimore will want a lot for Roberts but NOT a king's ransom like they wanted last year because he is in his walk year. Now a solid offer probably gets him, although the more bidders on him the more Balt is going to get.

Not sure trading for Roberts would be a rental. He is never been on a winner and may choose to sign a reasonable contract if he likes where he's at...its a risk.

candlesticks make a great wedding present.
How hard is it to look these things up? It took me 18 seconds to find out Jon Garland had a WHIP of 1.505.

btrain929
10-31-2008, 06:27 PM
How hard is it to look these things up? It took me 18 seconds to find out Jon Garland had a WHIP of 1.505.

And not to mention, over the entire year, hitters hit over .300 against him :o:. I've said this the past 2 years, but he's a younger in-shape Carlos Silva.

Tragg
10-31-2008, 06:27 PM
Not sure trading for Roberts would be a rental. He is never been on a winner and may choose to sign a reasonable contract if he likes where he's at...its a risk.

candlesticks make a great wedding present.
I consider it a rental; if we can sign him, then that's our "consumer surplus" so to speak. Rental ballplayers should command a rental price.

You got me there with those candlesticks.

Garland's year in Anaheim was less than so-so

turners56
10-31-2008, 08:51 PM
Does anybody around here bother to look at home/road splits? Anyone?

I just did, and it's rather surprising. It's extremely unusual for a hitter to struggle so much at home. He must really hate Safeco. Safeco's a pitcher's park, but how can you have a 150 point difference in your OPS? Dodger Stadium's also an extreme pitcher's park, but he still had that one career year. Seems a bit puzzling.

turners56
10-31-2008, 08:52 PM
How hard is it to look these things up? It took me 18 seconds to find out Jon Garland had a WHIP of 1.505.

Garland pissed his pants in a walk-year. How unfortunate. He was worse than Javy this year. Imagine that...

SOXSINCE'70
10-31-2008, 11:28 PM
Try again, Joe!


Or,as Mr.Garrison said in "South Park:The Movie"
"Bzzt, wrong!! Try again, Dumbass!!"

As far as i'm concerned, Dumbass is the most polite term I could use to describe the man I refer to as Joe Coward.

fozzy
11-01-2008, 04:20 AM
safeco destroys right handed hitters. before you say beltre was just a roid monster look at his home/away splits. over the last 3 years he has averaged .290 ba, 14 hrs, .340 obp and a 400 +slugging. you combine those numbers with what he'd put up playing 82 games at the cell you have an all-star.

btrain929
11-01-2008, 12:28 PM
safeco destroys right handed hitters. before you say beltre was just a roid monster look at his home/away splits. over the last 3 years he has averaged .290 ba, 14 hrs, .340 obp and a 400 +slugging. you combine those numbers with what he'd put up playing 82 games at the cell you have an all-star.

Are we gonna have to play another Game 163 at Home in '09? It was exciting, but I'd just rather win the division outright...

fozzy
11-01-2008, 02:32 PM
damn i gotta start double checking my post's before entering them

Brian26
11-01-2008, 09:37 PM
Garland pissed his pants in a walk-year. How unfortunate. He was worse than Javy this year. Imagine that...

Javy pissed his pants in the playoffs, something Garland didn't do for the Sox. If the goal is to get back and win another World Series, I don't see how you could ever count on Vazquez in a situation like that again.

WhiteSox5187
11-01-2008, 11:00 PM
Javy pissed his pants in the playoffs, something Garland didn't do for the Sox. If the goal is to get back and win another World Series, I don't see how you could ever count on Vazquez in a situation like that again.
I love Garland but ya gotta make the playoffs before you can pitch in them and if your five starter has a 1.5 WHIP and players are hitting .300 against you, making the playoffs is going to be a reach.

Zisk77
11-02-2008, 12:22 AM
Bold 1: Outside of wins, he was flat out bad this year.....in a pitcher's park.
Bold 2: Beltre is twice as fast as Crede and has had 10+ sb's 2 of the last 3 years.


Whats twice as fast as slow? Carlton Fisk stole close to 20 bases in 1990 and he was slow. Being a good base runner doesn't equal fast.

Zisk77
11-02-2008, 12:25 AM
I love Garland but ya gotta make the playoffs before you can pitch in them and if your five starter has a 1.5 WHIP and players are hitting .300 against you, making the playoffs is going to be a reach.


And of course Garland will always have a year equal to last year and couldn't possible bounce back and have a good year.

Domeshot17
11-02-2008, 12:39 AM
And of course Garland will always have a year equal to last year and couldn't possible bounce back and have a good year.

It was not THAT FAR off his normal. The truth is his mid 3 era year was a fluke. He is a steady, 200 IP, mid to high 4, high whip, low K, high Opponent Batting Average Against pitcher. Last year was bad for him, but 4.9 vs about 4.58, 1.5 vs 1.45, 300 vs mid 270s, Garland is just average. He is a fine 4th or 5th SP, nothing better, but at the money he is going to get (10-15 a year), please. Why spend 10-15 a year on your 4 or 5 man when you can spend 18-20 on a true number 1!!!!!!

drewcifer
11-02-2008, 12:44 AM
It was not THAT FAR off his normal. The truth is his mid 3 era year was a fluke. He is a steady, 200 IP, mid to high 4, high whip, low K, high Opponent Batting Average Against pitcher. Last year was bad for him, but 4.9 vs about 4.58, 1.5 vs 1.45, 300 vs mid 270s, Garland is just average. He is a fine 4th or 5th SP, nothing better, but at the money he is going to get (10-15 a year), please. Why spend 10-15 a year on your 4 or 5 man when you can spend 18-20 on a true number 1!!!!!!.

He's the same as Vazquez (different periph strengths) except only he did better here. Garland gets Ws. Vazquez makes his underpants brown.

On second thought, for $11.5M, Garland is better.

gr8mexico
11-02-2008, 01:13 AM
What would it take to get Alex Rios from the Blue Jays.
The Blue Jays are going to lose A.J Burnett and could use Javier Vazquez to fill in that Rotation spot.
White Sox trade Javier Vazquez , Chris Gets & Jerry Owens
Blue Jays trade Alex Rios and a low end prospect

drewcifer
11-02-2008, 01:19 AM
What would it take to get Alex Rios from the Blue Jays.
The Blue Jays are going to lose A.J Burnett and could use Javier Vazquez to fill in that Rotation spot.
White Sox trade Javier Vazquez , Chris Gets & Jerry Owens
Blue Jays trade Alex Rios and a low end prospect

I really like what you're thinking with Rios (offensively), except that he's not an infielder.

That's what we need.

btrain929
11-02-2008, 04:54 AM
[/b]


Whats twice as fast as slow? Carlton Fisk stole close to 20 bases in 1990 and he was slow. Being a good base runner doesn't equal fast.

Put it how you want it. If Beltre faced Crede in a 40 yard dash or a 100 yard dash, Beltre would smoke him every time, and not make it close. So combine that with his other skills that he's better than Crede in, he's not Crede + more salary as someone else eluded to.

Zisk77
11-02-2008, 11:41 AM
Put it how you want it. If Beltre faced Crede in a 40 yard dash or a 100 yard dash, Beltre would smoke him every time, and not make it close. So combine that with his other skills that he's better than Crede in, he's not Crede + more salary as someone else eluded to.


I'm not arguing that he is faster than Crede, I'm arguing that he is not fast and will not help to improve our team speed. I agree he is faster than Crede however. Stealing 10 Bases does not make fast...hell Konerko stole at least one this year.

Zisk77
11-02-2008, 11:43 AM
I really like what you're thinking with Rios (offensively), except that he's not an infielder.

That's what we need.

Rios is exactly what we need. He can play CF (doesn't because Wells is there) he is a good hitter who can RUN. However I doubt Javy, Owens, and Getz gets him.

Try something like Floyd/danks, Fields, Poreda is what they'll want.

Craig Grebeck
11-02-2008, 11:59 AM
Rios is exactly what we need. He can play CF (doesn't because Wells is there) he is a good hitter who can RUN. However I doubt Javy, Owens, and Getz gets him.

Try something like Floyd/danks, Fields, Poreda is what they'll want.
And you laugh in their face if they want that. He's good, but not THAT good.

California Sox
11-02-2008, 12:37 PM
And you laugh in their face if they want that. He's good, but not THAT good.

Rios is one of the most highly sought-after young players in baseball. The Jays were rumored to be trading him last year and the asking price was Tim Lincecum straight up. I doubt we'll be seeing Rios in a Sox uni, but we can dream.

champagne030
11-02-2008, 12:44 PM
And you laugh in their face if they want that. He's good, but not THAT good.

We don't have a good match for Toronto. If they laughed at Rios for Cain last year, they'll certainly hang up on KW if he offers Javy for Rios.

BadBobbyJenks
11-02-2008, 01:43 PM
Rios is one of the most highly sought-after young players in baseball. The Jays were rumored to be trading him last year and the asking price was Tim Lincecum straight up. I doubt we'll be seeing Rios in a Sox uni, but we can dream.

The asking price was Matt Cain and I believe the Giants said no.

Bill Naharodny
11-02-2008, 02:06 PM
Javy pissed his pants in the playoffs, something Garland didn't do for the Sox. If the goal is to get back and win another World Series, I don't see how you could ever count on Vazquez in a situation like that again.

Exactly. I think some of the haughty types around here are going to need to get their minds around a pretty basic concept: when you pitch like Javy has in key games for YEARS, your teammates will not trust you in any game that matters. And a smart general manager -- which Kenny Williams is -- will know that. And when that general manager's goal, every single year, is to win the World Series, appropriate actions will be investigated.

btrain929
11-02-2008, 02:17 PM
The asking price was Matt Cain and I believe the Giants said no.

I'm sorry but am I the only person who thinks Matt Cain is extremely overrated?

Foulke You
11-02-2008, 02:48 PM
Exactly. I think some of the haughty types around here are going to need to get their minds around a pretty basic concept: when you pitch like Javy has in key games for YEARS, your teammates will not trust you in any game that matters. And a smart general manager -- which Kenny Williams is -- will know that. And when that general manager's goal, every single year, is to win the World Series, appropriate actions will be investigated.
Excellent post. I also look back to late in the 2008 season when the Sox had that almost season ending sweep in the Metrodome when KW mentioned he had to travel with the team to "look into some eyes" and see if they had that burning desire to win. Javy had the deer in a headlights look for the entire month of September and the Sox kept handing him the ball and he failed every time. As you pointed out, KW is a smart GM and he had to have seen what we all saw with Javy. I really believe this stretch of games in September along with his meltdown in the playoffs sealed Javy's fate and will force Kenny's hand to trade him. People have to remember that KW is not an idiot. He isn't going to trade Javy without having a plan in place to replace him. Sometimes one trade is a precursor to several other moves. I for one, will be glad if Javy is moved because I don't think you can win a World Series with him in a key spot in your rotation. What good is a starter if he can't be counted on in any pressure games in a pennant race or any playoff games?

Craig Grebeck
11-02-2008, 03:00 PM
I'm sorry but am I the only person who thinks Matt Cain is extremely overrated?
Depends on your reasoning.

Bill Naharodny
11-02-2008, 03:13 PM
Excellent post. I also look back to late in the 2008 season when the Sox had that almost season ending sweep in the Metrodome when KW mentioned he had to travel with the team to "look into some eyes" and see if they had that burning desire to win. Javy had the deer in a headlights look for the entire month of September and the Sox kept handing him the ball and he failed every time. As you pointed out, KW is a smart GM and he had to have seen what we all saw with Javy. I really believe this stretch of games in September along with his meltdown in the playoffs sealed Javy's fate and will force Kenny's hand to trade him. People have to remember that KW is not an idiot. He isn't going to trade Javy without having a plan in place to replace him. Sometimes one trade is a precursor to several other moves. I for one, will be glad if Javy is moved because I don't think you can win a World Series with him in a key spot in your rotation. What good is a starter if he can't be counted on in any pressure games in a pennant race or any playoff games?

Yep -- it doesn't matter how many innings you can provide from the 4th spot in the rotation, which is where some here think he fits. If you're the 4th starter, guess what? You're still pitching 12 times in August and September and, hopefully, 3 times in October. There's nowhere to hide.

Javy has value alright -- value enough to trade.

champagne030
11-02-2008, 05:20 PM
The asking price was Matt Cain and I believe the Giants said no.

Cain was offered and the Jays said it starts with Lincecum.

Zisk77
11-02-2008, 05:51 PM
And you laugh in their face if they want that. He's good, but not THAT good.


Totally agree I'm just saying thats what they'd ask.

Lukin13
11-02-2008, 07:43 PM
Exactly. I think some of the haughty types around here are going to need to get their minds around a pretty basic concept: when you pitch like Javy has in key games for YEARS, your teammates will not trust you in any game that matters.

So you are saying that because Jermaine Dye doesnt "trust" Javier Vazquez, that Jermaine is just going to what? Phone it in, in the World Series?

That is a load of crap.

C'mon people, Vazquez was our #1 with a bullet coming into '08. Yes Javy has struggled in big games, but he hasn't had THAT much of a history in this regard. It has been a fairly short study. In all reality Javy had a rough beginning and end to the season. Javy is a "stuff" pitcher, 99% of "stuff" pitchers run hot and cold. Ozzie makes one stupid comment to the media trying to make himself look like a genius for "lighting a fire under Javy", and now your average "read the box score in the trib the next day fan" thinks that a proven American League Starting Pitcher (there isn't that many of these) needs to be dealt at any cost. Stay of the ledge guys (and Cowley)!

The '08 White Sox had great starting pitching, and now 75% of WSI wants to roll with Clayton Richard and a stopgap vet in '09... and that is if the big three stay healthy.

Then after a dissapointing '09 you same people will be screaming for Starting Pitching, "because after all that is what wins games".

TCQ, TCM, Buehrle, Dye, Floyd, Danks, Jenks: all untouchable here at WSI.

Swisher, PK, Fields, Javy: all gotta go.... I don't care what we get in return, just send them down the road.

Anyone here ever heard of selling high?

BadBobbyJenks
11-02-2008, 09:15 PM
Cain was offered and the Jays said it starts with Lincecum.

What would be the point of asking for Lincecum? To see how fast the Giants hang up the phone? Maybe that is what happened though, I don't remember

champagne030
11-02-2008, 09:37 PM
What would be the point of asking for Lincecum? To see how fast the Giants hang up the phone? Maybe that is what happened though, I don't remember

That is what happened. The Jays put it out there that Rios was available and the Giants offered Cain. They said no and wanted Lincecum. The Giants said no and there was no deal. My point was that if the Jays said no to Cain there's no way they're going to take Javy for Rios. Cain has his issues and may end up being Javy, but he far younger, cheaper and just as good at this point.

Sockinchisox
11-03-2008, 11:30 PM
The Mets have interest in Javy and talked about him during the GM meetings.

http://www.chicagotribune.com/sports/baseball/whitesox/chi-04-gm-sox-chicagonov04,0,1769835.story

munchman33
11-03-2008, 11:36 PM
The Mets have interest in Javy and talked about him during the winter meetings.

http://www.chicagotribune.com/sports/baseball/whitesox/chi-04-gm-sox-chicagonov04,0,1769835.story

Even more interesting is his comments on Poreda. Does Kenny think Poreda, and not Richard, will be the fifth starter next year? That's a lot of lefties either way.

WhiteSox5187
11-03-2008, 11:37 PM
The Mets have interest in Javy and talked about him during the winter meetings.

http://www.chicagotribune.com/sports/baseball/whitesox/chi-04-gm-sox-chicagonov04,0,1769835.story
Javy for Santana, straight up.

If Javy is the mental case I think he is, I don't know why anyone would want to bring him to New York...having said that the article certainly seems to suggest that Poreda might be ready for the '09 rotation. If what I've read here on WSI is true (which it probably isn't) the guy has a fastball and a change up and that's it, unless you're Greg Maddux or Sandy Kofax you're not going to go very far in the MLB if you're only a two pitch pitcher.

Daver
11-03-2008, 11:39 PM
Javy for Santana, straight up.

If Javy is the mental case I think he is, I don't know why anyone would want to bring him to New York...having said that the article certainly seems to suggest that Poreda might be ready for the '09 rotation. If what I've read here on WSI is true (which it probably isn't) the guy has a fastball and a change up and that's it, unless you're Greg Maddux or Sandy Kofax you're not going to go very far in the MLB if you're only a two pitch pitcher.

Randy Johnson disagrees with you.

oeo
11-03-2008, 11:44 PM
The Mets have interest in Javy and talked about him during the GM meetings.

http://www.chicagotribune.com/sports/baseball/whitesox/chi-04-gm-sox-chicagonov04,0,1769835.story

So this was a scout from outside the White Sox organization? If so, then I have a new found excitement in Aaron Poreda.

munchman33
11-03-2008, 11:53 PM
Javy for Santana, straight up.

If Javy is the mental case I think he is, I don't know why anyone would want to bring him to New York...having said that the article certainly seems to suggest that Poreda might be ready for the '09 rotation. If what I've read here on WSI is true (which it probably isn't) the guy has a fastball and a change up and that's it, unless you're Greg Maddux or Sandy Kofax you're not going to go very far in the MLB if you're only a two pitch pitcher.

Poreda also has a breaking pitch. The problem is he has a plus fastball and two below average other pitches. I will admit, however, I have not seen footage or read anything on his performance in the AFL, and whether either pitch has become ml average or even ml plus.

btrain929
11-03-2008, 11:53 PM
Randy Johnson disagrees with you.

Touche'. I'm gonna have to do a little research as I admittedly don't know much about the Mets' farm system. But off the top of my head, they don't have an abundance of anything that they could give us for Javy. And I seriously hope KW wouldn't consider Luis Castillo as a good return for Javy :(:.

btrain929
11-04-2008, 12:20 AM
Just from a quick glance at the Mets' minor leagues, the guys that stick out to me would be Daniel Murphy (3B), Jonathon Niese (LHSP), Nick Evans (1B/OF), and Mike Carp (1B). They look like some of their top prospects, and don't know if they'd wanna part with any of them for Javy, but since we're not actively looking to dump Javy or shed his salary, we're gonna want something good in return to make KW pull the trigger.

southsideirish71
11-04-2008, 12:22 AM
Javy for Santana, straight up.

If Javy is the mental case I think he is, I don't know why anyone would want to bring him to New York...having said that the article certainly seems to suggest that Poreda might be ready for the '09 rotation. If what I've read here on WSI is true (which it probably isn't) the guy has a fastball and a change up and that's it, unless you're Greg Maddux or Sandy Kofax you're not going to go very far in the MLB if you're only a two pitch pitcher.

I am far from a Poreda fan, but his one pitch is a mid to upper 90s sinking fastball from the left side. A guy with a turbo sinking pitch can get away with a lot more.

gr8mexico
11-04-2008, 08:22 AM
I can see Vazquez been traded. The Sox would have many cheaper options for the 4th spot. Freddy Garcia, Mark Mulder & Brad Penney or with all the money they save from trading Vazquez, and letting Joe Crede, Orlando Cabrera go. They can pony up the money to get C.C

Lukin13
11-04-2008, 09:20 AM
I can see Vazquez been traded. The Sox would have many cheaper options for the 4th spot. Freddy Garcia, Mark Mulder

C'mon now. That is like saying that you can see Quentin being traded because Cliff Floyd is available.

I won't be shocked if Vazquez is dealt, but I won't be happy if he is replaced with Freddy Garcia. The White Sox will win >81 games if our #4 and #5 starters are Mulder and Richard.

btrain929
11-04-2008, 09:45 AM
I can see Vazquez been traded. The Sox would have many cheaper options for the 4th spot. Freddy Garcia, Mark Mulder & Brad Penney or with all the money they save from trading Vazquez, and letting Joe Crede, Orlando Cabrera go. They can pony up the money to get C.C

:rolleyes:

PennStater98r
11-04-2008, 01:29 PM
I can see Vazquez been traded. The Sox would have many cheaper options for the 4th spot. Freddy Garcia, Mark Mulder & Brad Penney or with all the money they save from trading Vazquez, and letting Joe Crede, Orlando Cabrera go. They can pony up the money to get C.C

I know the man's a horse, but do you really want to sink that much money into him - especially after he was abused as much as he was by Milwaukee in the second half?

btrain929
11-04-2008, 01:48 PM
I know the man's a horse, but do you really want to sink that much money into him - especially after he was abused as much as he was by Milwaukee in the second half?

It doesn't matter if we want to sink that much money into him or not........HE'S NOT COMING HERE!

NLaloosh
11-04-2008, 01:50 PM
There's no way that I would just dump Vazquez. If the Sox woouldn't have ripped on him I think his value would have been pretty high.

I wouldn't want the Sox to trade him unless they get a very nice return. He's still a valuable starting pitcher. In 2007 he was the team's best pitcher.

munchman33
11-04-2008, 02:01 PM
There's no way that I would just dump Vazquez. If the Sox woouldn't have ripped on him I think his value would have been pretty high.

I wouldn't want the Sox to trade him unless they get a very nice return. He's still a valuable starting pitcher. In 2007 he was the team's best pitcher.

Javy is always a bad teams best pitcher. He's also always a good teams worst pitcher.

It doesn't matter what any of us think. Ozzie doesn't want him. It's either him or Ozzie. And Ozzie isn't going anywhere. So Vasquez very likely gets dumped for crap.

jabrch
11-04-2008, 02:02 PM
There's no way that I would just dump Vazquez.

KW won't either.

He isn't know for selling low.

If someone wants to pay market value for a .500 SP who will go 200+ IP, that's another story. But KW won't give him away unless he gets a piece that will contribute, either in 09 or in the future.

champagne030
11-04-2008, 02:17 PM
KW won't either.

He isn't know for selling low.

If someone wants to pay market value for a .500 SP who will go 200+ IP, that's another story. But KW won't give him away unless he gets a piece that will contribute, either in 09 or in the future.

Market value on a .500 SP, with 200+ IP, is the approximate $12M per the new team will be paying him. It's not like he's making $4.5M, where we could expect talent in return.

Craig Grebeck
11-04-2008, 03:00 PM
Javy is always a bad teams best pitcher. He's also always a good teams worst pitcher.

It doesn't matter what any of us think. Ozzie doesn't want him. It's either him or Ozzie. And Ozzie isn't going anywhere. So Vasquez very likely gets dumped for crap.
Let me know when Ozzie becomes GM.

btrain929
11-04-2008, 04:05 PM
Javy is always a bad teams best pitcher. He's also always a good teams worst pitcher.

It doesn't matter what any of us think. Ozzie doesn't want him. It's either him or Ozzie. And Ozzie isn't going anywhere. So Vasquez very likely gets dumped for crap.

No, it's not.

munchman33
11-04-2008, 04:12 PM
No, it's not.

Link?

Seriously, there isn't a case where Ozzie calls a guy out like that and his ass isn't gone the next year. If you can provide me any evidence that the organization has changed it's stance on players that Ozzie doesn't want, I'd be willing to here it. But Ozzie did call him out. And every reporter is saying trading him is inevitable. So unless you've got some other evidence, you can't say it's likely he stays.

munchman33
11-04-2008, 04:15 PM
Market value on a .500 SP, with 200+ IP, is the approximate $12M per the new team will be paying him. It's not like he's making $4.5M, where we could expect talent in return.

Market doesn't mean ****. F.A. values are not indicative to a players worth overall, only to that one team. Cheaper monetary options are always available for a different price.

WhiteSox5187
11-04-2008, 04:19 PM
Randy Johnson disagrees with you.
Randy Johnson disagrees with EVERYBODY.

russ99
11-04-2008, 04:24 PM
Market doesn't mean ****. F.A. values are not indicative to a players worth overall, only to that one team. Cheaper monetary options are always available for a different price.

There's not a good selection of starters available this year in FA, after Sabathia and Sheets sign, and Peavy (possibly) is traded.

Javy's expected return will go up as the GM's get more and more desperate for established starters. If I were Kenny, I'd wait until at least late December.

oeo
11-04-2008, 04:28 PM
Link?

Seriously, there isn't a case where Ozzie calls a guy out like that and his ass isn't gone the next year. If you can provide me any evidence that the organization has changed it's stance on players that Ozzie doesn't want, I'd be willing to here it. But Ozzie did call him out.

If your theory is correct, shouldn't Greg Walker have been given the boot already? He was called out this year.

Ozzie calls guys out all the time. He was trying to get the guy fired up, which obviously didn't work. He then said he had confidence in him going into the playoffs (which didn't work either).

And every reporter is saying trading him is inevitable. So unless you've got some other evidence, you can't say it's likely he stays.

Who? Joe Cowley? ****...that's the same guy that said Uribe was released on about five different occasions.

btrain929
11-04-2008, 04:42 PM
Who? Joe Cowley? ****...that's the same guy that said Uribe was released on about five different occasions.

No, probably Dick Van Dyke who thinks Pie and Cedeno is the centerpiece to the inevitable Peavy to the Cubs deal.

I bet every reporter also said it was inevitable that Crede would be trading during this spring training, or that it was inevitable that Torii Hunter would be wearing a Sox uniform in '08.

Sorry if I don't change my stance that Vazquez will remain on the southside for 2009 because "every reporter says he'll be traded."

munchman33
11-04-2008, 05:48 PM
If your theory is correct, shouldn't Greg Walker have been given the boot already? He was called out this year.

Ozzie calls guys out all the time. He was trying to get the guy fired up, which obviously didn't work. He then said he had confidence in him going into the playoffs (which didn't work either).



Who? Joe Cowley? ****...that's the same guy that said Uribe was released on about five different occasions.

Ozzie didn't just call Javy out. He completely through him under the bus. He did this start after start, with no effect. Not only does that show that Ozzie wants him gone, but it shows Kenny that Ozzie has no control or effect on Javy's performance. Which means he has to go.

Like I said before, Ozzie has only been this brutal with a few guys. And they all said their goodbyes after the season.

sullythered
11-04-2008, 06:30 PM
He completely through him under the bus.
I don't know what this sentence means. :cool:

chisoxmike
11-05-2008, 11:15 AM
:gah:

It's not just WSI...

http://www.fannation.com/truth_and_rumors/view/76395

(Look at the headline.)

soltrain21
11-05-2008, 11:22 AM
It's not just WSI...

http://www.fannation.com/truth_and_rumors/view/76395

(Look at the headline.)


I dig the alliteration in that story. The Ayn Rand of sports reporting.

oeo
11-05-2008, 11:34 AM
Ozzie didn't just call Javy out. He completely through him under the bus. He did this start after start, with no effect. Not only does that show that Ozzie wants him gone, but it shows Kenny that Ozzie has no control or effect on Javy's performance. Which means he has to go.

Like I said before, Ozzie has only been this brutal with a few guys. And they all said their goodbyes after the season.

Now we're going to change the phrase, but my statement still stands. Greg Walker should be on his way out, too. He was 'completely thrown under the bus', and Ozzie actually has control over his coaching staff.

I think you're overestimating Ozzie's power here.

BTW, this: "He did this start after start, with no effect," is not true. He did it one time, before the Twins game, and it didn't work. In fact, before his postseason start:

There's a reason Javy's going to be my first guy. I have a lot of confidence in him, our coaching staff, too, [and] our general manager. I think right now he's just got to go and be him, be aggressive. The only thing I ask Javy is be aggressive and give it the best stuff you have. I don't care how many innings you're going to get. It's not about Javy. It's about every pitcher in baseball. Every pitcher in baseball, if you're not that aggressive in the strike zone, you're not going to have a good game.