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View Full Version : Wondering about Beckham


steely712
10-30-2008, 02:59 AM
I have not heard much about Gordon Beckham since we drafted him, is there any chance that he might be able to play second next year when we move Alexei to SS? I remember seeing him play in college, and he kind of reminded me of Michael Young. I don't know if he is going to be that kind of player, but was just wondering if anyone had any thoughts.

JermaineDye05
10-30-2008, 03:20 AM
Next year?

No, he won't be ready.

MAYBE he'll get a September call-up in 2009. I think the Sox are going to be very careful in developing Beckham, they don't want to bring him up too fast.

EMachine10
10-30-2008, 09:45 AM
I would imagine they're breeding him for a 2010 arrival. I also think he'll spend his time at 2nd or even 3rd depending on how the club rounds out.

Edit: In fact, Beckham played 2b in yesterday's AFL game. I've been rather busy lately, so I can't tell you if he's been playing there the whole time.

Jeff B
10-30-2008, 10:05 AM
I would imagine they're breeding him for a 2010 arrival. I also think he'll spend his time at 2nd or even 3rd depending on how the club rounds out.

Edit: In fact, Beckham played 2b in yesterday's AFL game. I've been rather busy lately, so I can't tell you if he's been playing there the whole time.
No he hasn't, he's played 2nd a couple of times but mainly he's been playing SS.

Stoky44
10-30-2008, 10:36 AM
I always get the feeling that our most people think our high draft picks are going to turn into great players and be good right from the start ala Evan Longoria, Ryan Howard, Frank Thomas, etc. It is great to see optimism about future players. I guess I just am either more negative or realistic, hopefully not the latter.

I just have a feeling this guy will be no better than Josh Fields, and hopefully better than Joe Borchard. I need it to be proven to me before I get excited, too many disappointments in the past.

I hope I am wrong and this guy turns in Alexei or TCQ.

Craig Grebeck
10-30-2008, 11:02 AM
I would imagine they're breeding him for a 2010 arrival. I also think he'll spend his time at 2nd or even 3rd depending on how the club rounds out.

Edit: In fact, Beckham played 2b in yesterday's AFL game. I've been rather busy lately, so I can't tell you if he's been playing there the whole time.
Which is only because he was added to the team too late due to his late signing for the Sox to ask for a "priority" spot.

I always get the feeling that our most people think our high draft picks are going to turn into great players and be good right from the start ala Evan Longoria, Ryan Howard, Frank Thomas, etc. It is great to see optimism about future players. I guess I just am either more negative or realistic, hopefully not the latter.

I just have a feeling this guy will be no better than Josh Fields, and hopefully better than Joe Borchard. I need it to be proven to me before I get excited, too many disappointments in the past.

I hope I am wrong and this guy turns in Alexei or TCQ.
I'd be more optimistic than not about Gordon. Hasn't been overwhelmed and is coming off one of the best NCAA seasons in recent memory: .411/.519/.804 with 28 HR (in the SEC!). For a shortstop that's pretty fantastic. 54/30 BB/K ratio. Yikes.

Fields was good in college, but never THAT good.

TheKittle
10-30-2008, 11:17 AM
Which is only because he was added to the team too late due to his late signing for the Sox to ask for a "priority" spot.


I'd be more optimistic than not about Gordon. Hasn't been overwhelmed and is coming off one of the best NCAA seasons in recent memory: .411/.519/.804 with 28 HR (in the SEC!). For a shortstop that's pretty fantastic. 54/30 BB/K ratio. Yikes.

Fields was good in college, but never THAT good.

College stats are so meaningless with the metal bat.

I think Beckham's future will be at 2nd. At best he's a solid everyday 2nd. But not an all star.

EMachine10
10-30-2008, 12:05 PM
I like to think that he could produce something along the lines of what Troy Tulowitzki did in his breakout year (not this past season, but the year before). A more leveled off .290 - 20 or 25 - 100 isn't out of the question in my eyes.

btrain929
10-30-2008, 12:14 PM
I like to think that he could produce something along the lines of what Troy Tulowitzki did in his breakout year (not this past season, but the year before). A more leveled off .290 - 20 or 25 - 100 isn't out of the question in my eyes.

In his first year? That would be on the high end, in my opinion.

Daver
10-30-2008, 12:36 PM
MAYBE he'll get a September call-up in 2009. I think the Sox are going to be very careful in developing Beckham, they don't want to bring him up too fast.

Unless Buddy Bell has made huge changes in player development he will advance as fast as he hits at any given level. The White Sox don't really have a priority for developing complete ballplayers.

TheKittle
10-30-2008, 12:38 PM
Unless Buddy Bell has made huge changes in player development he will advance as fast as he hits at any given level. The White Sox don't really have a priority for developing complete ballplayers.

You make a great point. The Sox have rush many of their prospects and they come up with so much hype and expectations, that when they fail, they don't know how to handle it.

EMachine10
10-30-2008, 12:45 PM
In his first year? That would be on the high end, in my opinion.
No, no not in the first year. But I think that's where his career averages will flatten out. He could develop really good power and hit 30+, who knows, but I would take that line consistently after a few years of service.

If we're projecting a first year line, a .275, 20, 85 isn't out of reach, i don't think.

Daver
10-30-2008, 12:53 PM
Carlos Lee couldn't play a position, Aaron Rowand played out of position his entire time here, Mike Caruso was a bust...

khan
10-30-2008, 12:59 PM
Carlos Lee couldn't play a position, Aaron Rowand played out of position his entire time here, Mike Caruso was a bust...

...Josh Fields can't hit for average or catch a cold, Danny Richar never learned to hit, Boone Logan was rushed from ROOKIE BALL to the bigs...

Craig Grebeck
10-30-2008, 01:03 PM
...Josh Fields can't hit for average or catch a cold, Danny Richar never learned to hit, PERIOD, Boone Logan was rushed from ROOKIE BALL to the bigs...
Uhhh...Danny Richar was not with us that long. Boone was rushed but showed flashes of talent.

Daver, I understand your concern, but don't quite get the comparison to Beckham. Gordon is not Fields, he's not Caruso, Lee, Rowand, or anyone else. He's a solid ballplayer. I don't understand the negativity surrounding him. All reports say Gordon is a quality fielder with above average range and average hands. If anything, they'll have to shift him to 2B. Big deal.

Yes, metal bats inflate statistics, but those numbers are great compared to guys using metal bats. He's also holding his own in the AFL and did well in his minor league debut.

AND he led the Cape Cod League in HR last summer.

TheKittle
10-30-2008, 01:07 PM
Uhhh...Danny Richar was not with us that long. Boone was rushed but showed flashes of talent.

Daver, I understand your concern, but don't quite get the comparison to Beckham. Gordon is not Fields, he's not Caruso, Lee, Rowand, or anyone else. He's a solid ballplayer. I don't understand the negativity surrounding him. All reports say Gordon is a quality fielder with above average range and average hands. If anything, they'll have to shift him to 2B. Big deal.

Yes, metal bats inflate statistics, but those numbers are great compared to guys using metal bats. He's also holding his own in the AFL and did well in his minor league debut.

AND he led the Cape Cod League in HR last summer.


I think he's showing a pattern in regards to Sox prospects. Personally I don't think anybody should be listed as a top prospect unless he's played a full minor league season.

Everything he did before signing with the Sox is meaningless, NOW. Let's see how he does playing a full minor league season. He should start out at High A. Let's see how he does before even thinking he'll be an impact player.

Craig Grebeck
10-30-2008, 01:08 PM
I think he's showing a pattern in regards to Sox prospects. Personally I don't think anybody should be listed as a top prospect unless he's played a full minor league season.

Everything he did before signing with the Sox is meaningless, NOW. Let's see how he does playing a full minor league season. He should start out at High A. Let's see how he does before even thinking he'll be an impact player.
Let's see how he does before we compare him to previous busts and/or make false statements about his inability to play the middle infield. Deal?

EndemicSox
10-30-2008, 01:38 PM
You either have "it" or you don't...if Beckham is good enough to hit MLB pitchers, expect some silly stats in AA next season and a call-up come September.

Daver
10-30-2008, 01:58 PM
Daver, I understand your concern, but don't quite get the comparison to Beckham. Gordon is not Fields, he's not Caruso, Lee, Rowand, or anyone else. He's a solid ballplayer. I don't understand the negativity surrounding him. All reports say Gordon is a quality fielder with above average range and average hands. If anything, they'll have to shift him to 2B. Big deal.


I'm not comparing Gordon to anyone, just pointing out examples of poor player development by the White Sox.

I am also not being negative, more like realistic.

hellview
10-30-2008, 02:27 PM
You either have "it" or you don't...if Beckham is good enough to hit MLB pitchers, expect some silly stats in AA next season and a call-up come September.

He won't be called up in September even if he owns the minor circa Matt Wieters.

Craig Grebeck
10-30-2008, 02:34 PM
I'm not comparing Gordon to anyone, just pointing out examples of poor player development by the White Sox.

I am also not being negative, more like realistic.
Noted. We definitely don't have a great history in this regard.

TheKittle
10-30-2008, 03:03 PM
Let's see how he does before we compare him to previous busts and/or make false statements about his inability to play the middle infield. Deal?

I never said he couldn't play the middle IF. But how do you know he can? Based on what? You and I and nobody else really knows.

He's not a solid player, even in the minors. He's getting a lot of hype because he was a top 10 pick. Well there are tons of Top 10 picks who never reach AA.

Yes, it's early to say he's a bust but it's also too early to say he's a sure thing.

Daver
10-30-2008, 03:18 PM
I never said he couldn't play the middle IF. But how do you know he can? Based on what? You and I and nobody else really knows.


What caliber defense you play is actually easier to judge based on college play, the ball comes off an aluminum bat quicker than it does a wood bat, if you are making the majority of the plays in college it will show up even better in a minor league game.

What he needs to learn is situational defense, going to the right base on a ground ball, when to cover second on a steal attempt, getting the sure out as opposed to risking an error on a forced throw. These are all little things that can make big differences, and Sox prospects don't develop these skills well.

oeo
10-30-2008, 03:26 PM
...Josh Fields can't hit for average or catch a cold, Danny Richar never learned to hit

^
Dumb.

TheKittle
10-30-2008, 03:38 PM
What caliber defense you play is actually easier to judge based on college play, the ball comes off an aluminum bat quicker than it does a wood bat, if you are making the majority of the plays in college it will show up even better in a minor league game.



I generally argee with the first part. But as players mature, some lose the range once they fill out. So they may still have the hand reactions but won't cover as much ground.

khan
10-30-2008, 03:59 PM
^
Dumb.

Indeed. Since you disagree with me, I have two quick questions for you:

What exactly about Fields' career batting average or ability to catch is great/promising?

AND

Exactly what did Richar do offensively that is/was impressive?

Daver
10-30-2008, 04:04 PM
I generally argee with the first part. But as players mature, some lose the range once they fill out. So they may still have the hand reactions but won't cover as much ground.

That is generally offset by the wooden bat, but I can see your point in some circumstances.

TheKittle
10-30-2008, 04:36 PM
That is generally offset by the wooden bat, but I can see your point in some circumstances.


Not trying to nitpick here, but I'm wondering if stronger, more mature players using a wood bat hit the ball at the same rate of speed as 18-22 year old college kids with a metal bat.

Daver
10-30-2008, 04:44 PM
Not trying to nitpick here, but I'm wondering if stronger, more mature players using a wood bat hit the ball at the same rate of speed as 18-22 year old college kids with a metal bat.

The ball always comes off a wooden bat slower than an aluminum one, no matter how hard it is hit, there has been a lot of testing on it in recent years. I'm not a physicist and I didn't stay at a Holiday Inn Express last night, so I won't attempt to explain why, perhaps inertia.

voodoochile
10-30-2008, 05:13 PM
The ball always comes off a wooden bat slower than an aluminum one, no matter how hard it is hit, there has been a lot of testing on it in recent years. I'm not a physicist and I didn't stay at a Holiday Inn Express last night, so I won't attempt to explain why, perhaps inertia.

Aluminum bats are so much lighter that the hitter can generate a LOT more bat speed. The difference in mass is insignificant in the equation F=MA, but the additional speed jacks the F applied through the roof.

This is as I understand it. I'm not a physicist either...

oeo
10-30-2008, 05:16 PM
Indeed. Since you disagree with me, I have two quick questions for you:

What exactly about Fields' career batting average or ability to catch is great/promising?

AND

Exactly what did Richar do offensively that is/was impressive?

Fields: a pretty good minor league career, and potential shown in his rookie season. Whether an average glove will be there is questionable (while he does have his weaknesses, i.e. range, he also has strengths: plus, accurate arm and the ability to charge the ball quite well), but do I think he can hit for decent average? Sure. Do I think he can become more patient? He's improved upon it every year. Fields is always going to strike out, but that's one of the negatives to nearly every power hitter.

Richar: good plate discipline, and the ability foul tough pitches off. He wasn't out of the AB when he got down in the count, he worked himself back into it.

Your judgment comes off of 4 months and 3 months, respectively. I guess if you're not an Evan Longoria, you suck.

Craig Grebeck
10-30-2008, 05:20 PM
Fields: a pretty good minor league career, and potential shown in his rookie season. Whether an average glove will be there is questionable (while he does have his weaknesses, i.e. range, he also has strengths: plus, accurate arm and the ability to charge the ball quite well), but do I think he can hit for decent average? Sure. Do I think he can become more patient? He's improved upon it every year.

Richar: good plate discipline, and the ability foul tough pitches off. He wasn't out of the AB when he got down in the count, he worked himself back into it.

Your judgment comes off of 4 months and 3 months, respectively. I guess if you're not an Evan Longoria, you suck.
Haha, my favorite part is the Richar comment. Damn, we couldn't fix that guy who spent just about one year in the organization. If you're going to be pissed about something involving Richar, lament the fact we gave up a guy who is a hell of a lot better than him in the trade.

khan
10-31-2008, 11:15 AM
Fields: a pretty good minor league career, and potential shown in his rookie season.

Great! So you're impressed by a career .303 OBP at the big league level? A .233 batting average? 150 Ks in 125 games in the bigs?

How about only ONE above-.300 batting average season in 5 years in the minors? [Crede had 3 seasons >.300 BA, and 3 >20 HR in the minors, and he turned into a merely above-average hitter in the bigs, BTW.]

Whether an average glove will be there is questionable (while he does have his weaknesses, i.e. range, he also has strengths: plus, accurate arm and the ability to charge the ball quite well),
So a minor league career Fielding Percentage of .927 is good for you? [Granted Fielding % is an imperfect metric, but by all measureables, Fields can't catch.]

but do I think he can hit for decent average? Sure.
His numbers state otherwise. He had one lucky year in the minors, and swung for the fences in garbage time in 2006, as the Sox were well out of it by the time Fields arrived in Chicago.

Do I think he can become more patient? He's improved upon it every year.
No, he hasn't. His OBP and BA have shown no signs of improvement since he had his one lucky year in the minors. He's a slow strikeout machine in a team that is replete with slow strikeout machines.

Fields is always going to strike out, but that's one of the negatives to nearly every power hitter.
And his power numbers suck compared to Crede's in the minors. His power numbers suck, when you realize that he'll average 1.5 K/game. If you strike out that often, you'd better be Ryan Howard. Or at least, Adam Dunn. But even Dunn hit for more power than Fields has hereto fore.

Again, in each and every year, Josh Fields averaged more than one K per game played. Even in his "good" season, he struck out 136 times in 124 games. In AAA. The fact of the matter is that Josh Fields is, was, and always will be a strikeout waiting to happen. And don't give me this "he was injured in 2008" bull****. His injury did not impact Fields' (in)ability to judge balls and strikes. To my knowledge, his eyes were perfectly healthy in 2008.

Richar: good plate discipline, and the ability foul tough pitches off. He wasn't out of the AB when he got down in the count, he worked himself back into it.
Thrilling. Can he get on base?

fozzy
11-01-2008, 12:38 AM
here's a good scouting report about beckman pre-draft it breaks down his swing...
http://www.baseball-intellect.com/Articles/gordon-beckham-swing.html

also till last year no one ever questioned richar's ability to hit. i think his lowest ob% was above .360. personally i think we gave up on him to soon. he had leg problems last year and struggled. we gave up a great prospect in aaron cunninham to get him, who has tore up every level he has been in. it might go down as kenny's worse trade.