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Lip Man 1
10-28-2008, 12:01 PM
From Mark Gonzales:

http://www.chicagotribune.com/sports/baseball/whitesox/chi-28-white-sox-chicagooct28,0,6117087.story

Lip

hi im skot
10-28-2008, 12:06 PM
Dennys Reyes?

God help us all.

doublem23
10-28-2008, 12:20 PM
Dennys Reyes?

God help us all.

If you throw enough crap against a wall, some of it is bound to stick.

Lundind1
10-28-2008, 12:24 PM
If you throw enough crap against a wall, some of it is bound to stick.

I am not willing to take that chance.

areilly
10-28-2008, 12:32 PM
If you throw enough crap against a wall, some of it is bound to stick.

We should start an early pool on who will become this winter's Darrin Erstad.

khan
10-28-2008, 12:40 PM
We should start an early pool on who will become this winter's Darrin Erstad.

Find a list of former football-player stiffs who can't play baseball [like Erstad, Fields, Borchard, KW, Jr., ad nauseum] and that will give you a good idea as to who KW will sign.

doublem23
10-28-2008, 12:41 PM
I am not willing to take that chance.

:dunno:

Unfortunately, that's pretty much the only real way to build a bullpen... These guys are very volitale and there are very few pitchers who have long, successful, and consistent careers in the 'pen. Most often, "great" bullpens are built around a few guys who simply catch lightning in a bottle for a year.

Look at the '05 Sox (http://www.baseball-reference.com/teams/CHW/2005.shtml), their bullpen was ridiculous and now, only 3 years later only 1 guy (Jenks) is still having success in the MLB, a few others are struggling (Marte), jumping up and down between MLB and AAA (Cotts), or are completely out of baseball (Hermanson, Politte).

Rockabilly
10-28-2008, 12:51 PM
I would like the Sox to pick up

Garret Atkins 3B
Chone Figgins 2B

soxfanatlanta
10-28-2008, 12:53 PM
:dunno:

Unfortunately, that's pretty much the only real way to build a bullpen... These guys are very volitale and there are very few pitchers who have long, successful, and consistent careers in the 'pen. Most often, "great" bullpens are built around a few guys who simply catch lightning in a bottle for a year..

Ding ding ding!!

It's a crap shoot for most of the part.

doublem23
10-28-2008, 12:55 PM
Ding ding ding!!

It's a crap shoot for most of the part.

Yeah, unlike your rotation or your lineup that can be carefully crafted and guys can be acquired to fill specific needs, when you build a bullpen you just need to find 1 stud to close and then just grab a number of arms and hope that a few of them can get their **** together for a year.

CashMan
10-28-2008, 12:57 PM
I would like the Sox to pick up

Garret Atkins 3B
Chone Figgins 2B

I am an Atkins fan.

Thome25
10-28-2008, 01:13 PM
Seriously, what would it take for KW to get Atkins and Figgins? I need a serious answer not the usual "Insert unvaluable player's name here and a bag of baseballs."

munchman33
10-28-2008, 01:30 PM
Seriously, what would it take for KW to get Atkins and Figgins? I need a serious answer not the usual "Insert unvaluable player's name here and a bag of baseballs."

Both of them? We don't have the players.

Craig Grebeck
10-28-2008, 02:00 PM
Garrett Atkins is not good folks. Not sure what is stopping people from realizing that.

Rockabilly
10-28-2008, 02:27 PM
I know Colorado will want young pitchers for Atkins so maybe Richard and Broadway would be enough..

munchman33
10-28-2008, 02:34 PM
Garrett Atkins is not good folks. Not sure what is stopping people from realizing that.

While I don't disagree because his home/road splits are so different, I can't help but point out how much better a player over his career than Nick Swisher he is.

Career lines:

Atkins: .298 .360 .474

Swisher: .244 .354 .451

I'd also like to point out how close Swisher's career road line is to Atkins:

Atkins: .260 .328 .424

Swisher .244 .351 .435

I find it hard to believe you'd support Swisher and not Atkins, when the numbers clearly suggest Atkins is, at the very least, the better player. And at worst, just as good.

Craig Grebeck
10-28-2008, 03:23 PM
While I don't disagree because his home/road splits are so different, I can't help but point out how much better a player over his career than Nick Swisher he is.

Career lines:

Atkins: .298 .360 .474

Swisher: .244 .354 .451

I'd also like to point out how close Swisher's career road line is to Atkins:

Atkins: .260 .328 .424

Swisher .244 .351 .435

I find it hard to believe you'd support Swisher and not Atkins, when the numbers clearly suggest Atkins is, at the very least, the better player. And at worst, just as good.
Haha, I figured this was coming. Well, considering the fact that Nick has shown improvement and upward progression in his ability to strike out less and walk more, while Atkins has become worse and worse, and the fact that Atkins plays a corner position while Swisher plays all three outfield spots and first base, I don't see what the **** you are talking about.

Also, I'm struggling to figure out how you consider Atkins the better player by his road statistics. Is it the significantly worse OBP, or the worse SLG?

One more thing, I support Swisher because he's already here. I didn't (and still don't) believe the trade with Oakland was bad and supported that, mainly because I, along with a lot of other people, thought Swisher would breakout this season. Atkins has been in strong decline and straight up sucks ass on the road and would be overvalued on the open market due to a lack of 3B.

Craig Grebeck
10-28-2008, 03:24 PM
I know Colorado will want young pitchers for Atkins so maybe Richard and Broadway would be enough..
Why would they want young pitching? They've got plenty in the minors and would probably want proven guys.

munchman33
10-28-2008, 03:29 PM
Haha, I figured this was coming. Well, considering the fact that Nick has shown improvement and upward progression in his ability to strike out less and walk more, while Atkins has become worse and worse, and the fact that Atkins plays a corner position while Swisher plays all three outfield spots and first base, I don't see what the **** you are talking about.

Also, I'm struggling to figure out how you consider Atkins the better player by his road statistics. Is it the significantly worse OBP, or the worse SLG?

One more thing, I support Swisher because he's already here. I didn't (and still don't) believe the trade with Oakland was bad and supported that, mainly because I, along with a lot of other people, thought Swisher would breakout this season. Atkins has been in strong decline and straight up sucks ass on the road and would be overvalued on the open market due to a lack of 3B.

Meh, I think they both suck ass. But Atkins at least plays a position we need to fill. I'd rather stop gap at third and pickup a real CF than have Swisher in CF and pickup a good 3B. Either way, neither guy is ideal.

esbrechtel
10-28-2008, 03:47 PM
All I want is a leadoff hitter that can play 2b, CF, 3B or SS....Is that too much to ask?

hellview
10-28-2008, 03:59 PM
I know Colorado will want young pitchers for Atkins so maybe Richard and Broadway would be enough..

Hahahahahaha...cause no other team is gonna trump that mighty offer if Aitkins is on the market.

hellview
10-28-2008, 04:00 PM
Why would they want young pitching? They've got plenty in the minors and would probably want proven guys.

Like Livan Hernandez?

Craig Grebeck
10-28-2008, 05:24 PM
Like Livan Hernandez?
What the **** are you talking about?

btrain929
10-28-2008, 05:25 PM
What the **** are you talking about?

You said they have alot of young pitchers, and only want proven guys. The Rockies took a flier on Livan last year, so he was saying that your statement is obviously not true is they brought on a dead mule like L.Hernandez.

Craig Grebeck
10-28-2008, 05:33 PM
You said they have alot of young pitchers, and only want proven guys. The Rockies took a flier on Livan last year, so he was saying that your statement is obviously not true is they brought on a dead mule like L.Hernandez.
The Rockies are one year removed from the world series and would probably want major league talent. I'm not saying it is smart, but they are fairly well endowed with young arms and would rather have a good pitcher because they probably believe they can contend next season.

hellview
10-28-2008, 05:37 PM
The Rockies are one year removed from the world series and would probably want major league talent. I'm not saying it is smart, but they are fairly well endowed with young arms and would rather have a good pitcher because they probably believe they can contend next season.

Well where were these young arms when they're rolling out Livian's deadboy to the mound every 5th day.

They were playing for nothnig, at that point why aren't they rolling out some young guys to let them get a taste of the majors.

Let me honest, they Rockies were the most fluke World Series team of the last 20 years. Talk about a team getting hot at the right time until they actually ran into a good team in Boston.

Craig Grebeck
10-28-2008, 05:50 PM
Well where were these young arms when they're rolling out Livian's deadboy to the mound every 5th day.

They were playing for nothnig, at that point why aren't they rolling out some young guys to let them get a taste of the majors.

Let me honest, they Rockies were the most fluke World Series team of the last 20 years. Talk about a team getting hot at the right time until they actually ran into a good team in Boston.
I don't doubt this. I'm just cluing you in on their organizational philosophy. You don't have to tell me they're a fluke, you'd probably have to tell their front office.

Also, they signed an also-ran in Livan Hernandez for God only knows what reason. What I'm saying is that organization is in "win-now" mode. Also, Broadway and Richard are not very appealing names -- Broadway especially. He has **** for value.

btrain929
10-28-2008, 05:51 PM
I don't doubt this. I'm just cluing you in on their organizational philosophy. You don't have to tell me they're a fluke, you'd probably have to tell their front office.

Also, they signed an also-ran in Livan Hernandez for God only knows what reason. What I'm saying is that organization is in "win-now" mode. Also, Broadway and Richard are not very appealing names -- Broadway especially. He has **** for value.

Definitely agree with that....

hellview
10-28-2008, 05:53 PM
I don't doubt this. I'm just cluing you in on their organizational philosophy. You don't have to tell me they're a fluke, you'd probably have to tell their front office.

Also, they signed an also-ran in Livan Hernandez for God only knows what reason. What I'm saying is that organization is in "win-now" mode. Also, Broadway and Richard are not very appealing names -- Broadway especially. He has **** for value.

Are they really in win now since they'll more then likely move Holliday or Atkins (maybe both) this offseason.

If they were going for it they wouldn't even consider moving Holliday and Atkins, trade they're you're young prospects and go for it all now circa Tigers 2008.

turners56
10-28-2008, 05:55 PM
Definitely agree with that....

What a first round pick he was.

hellview
10-28-2008, 05:57 PM
What a first round pick he was.

You mean it's not good to draft low-ceiling college arms?

Craig Grebeck
10-28-2008, 05:59 PM
Are they really in win now since they'll more then likely move Holliday or Atkins (maybe both) this offseason.

If they were going for it they wouldn't even consider moving Holliday and Atkins, trade they're you're young prospects and go for it all now circa Tigers 2008.
They're moving Atkins to make room for Ian Stewart. Holliday would be moved solely because they won't reach an agreement on a long-term extension and want to strike while the iron is hot and get some good players back.

Craig Grebeck
10-28-2008, 06:00 PM
You mean it's not good to draft low-ceiling college arms?
Question: if you have such a high opinion of Atkins and a low opinion of Broadway, why would the Rockies ever swap the two? Even if Richard is included?

hellview
10-28-2008, 06:00 PM
They're moving Atkins to make room for Ian Stewart. Holliday would be moved solely because they won't reach an agreement on a long-term extension and want to strike while the iron is hot and get some good players back.

I know about Holliday being a free agent after the season, but if they were really in "win-now" they would even consider moving Holliday or Atkins and would trade Stewart to help the club go for it now in 2009.

hellview
10-28-2008, 06:02 PM
Question: if you have such a high opinion of Atkins and a low opinion of Broadway, why would the Rockies ever swap the two? Even if Richard is included?

Where did I ever say I have a high opinion of Atkins? I want nothing to do with him, he's a Coors product.

But to think that Richards and Broadway would get that trade done is laughable.

Craig Grebeck
10-28-2008, 06:09 PM
Where did I ever say I have a high opinion of Atkins? I want nothing to do with him, he's a Coors product.

But to think that Richards and Broadway would get that trade done is laughable.
Whoops! Mixed up members here. Sorry.

turners56
10-28-2008, 06:15 PM
You mean it's not good to draft low-ceiling college arms?

Mark Buehrle was a low-ceiling college arm. Look how well that turned out. I don't have a problem with the Sox drafting Broadway, I just don't like how they drafted him in the first round.

hellview
10-28-2008, 07:10 PM
Mark Buehrle was a low-ceiling college arm. Look how well that turned out. I don't have a problem with the Sox drafting Broadway, I just don't like how they drafted him in the first round.

What?!?!

If that's your logic then no team has ever made a bad 1st round draft pick.

munchman33
10-28-2008, 07:18 PM
What?!?!

If that's your logic then no team has ever made a bad 1st round draft pick.

???

I think you misread what he wrote.

PaleHoser
10-28-2008, 07:49 PM
Dennys Reyes?

God help us all.

Agreed. With the exception of David Ortiz (a big whoops on that one), when was the last time the Twins let someone walk who was still capable of helping a team win? Rod Carew?

turners56
10-28-2008, 08:11 PM
What?!?!

If that's your logic then no team has ever made a bad 1st round draft pick.

What I said was kind of hindsight. However, why would any team draft a pitcher who has average stuff (only a 88-90 MPH fastball) without a decent secondary pitch in the middle of the first round? It just didn't make much sense. If we got Broadway in the later rounds where he was supposed to be drafted, I can care less.

turners56
10-28-2008, 08:12 PM
Agreed. With the exception of David Ortiz (a big whoops on that one), when was the last time the Twins let someone walk who was still capable of helping a team win? Rod Carew?

How about Torii Hunter?

BTW, I still think Ortiz is a product of Fenway and Manny Ramirez. We'll see how he does next year.

Craig Grebeck
10-28-2008, 08:22 PM
How about Torii Hunter?

BTW, I still think Ortiz is a product of Fenway and Manny Ramirez. We'll see how he does next year.
He hasn't had any trouble hitting outside of Fenway since 2004. The guy's a beast who played injured this season and struggled, as anyone would expect.

turners56
10-28-2008, 08:36 PM
He hasn't had any trouble hitting outside of Fenway since 2004. The guy's a beast who played injured this season and struggled, as anyone would expect.

Kind of. He's still a good player away from Fenway. His splits of .272/.389/.573 over the past three seasons are very impressive. However, compare it to his home splits of .323/.438/.619 and it doesn't look all that good anymore.

hellview
10-28-2008, 08:36 PM
What I said was kind of hindsight. However, why would any team draft a pitcher who has average stuff (only a 88-90 MPH fastball) without a decent secondary pitch in the middle of the first round? It just didn't make much sense. If we got Broadway in the later rounds where he was supposed to be drafted, I can care less.

It's not hindsight, before that draft BA and other publication said Broadway was a 4 or 5 starter that fringy stuff that wouldn't play well in the majors. There's no hindsight, it was a bad pick the moment it was made.

He was projected as a first round pick, but the garbage Sox scouting department clearly saw something that no other would have touched in the first round. I've like to see this organziation become more aggressive in nabing proven scouts from other teams. **** the Tigers just stole the Twins minor league pitching cordinator. Who knows if he can help, but clearly that organization realizes how poorly the arms are in their systems (outside of Porcello) and made an agressive more to get a proven guy in there to help out.

hellview
10-28-2008, 08:39 PM
Kind of. He's still a good player away from Fenway. His splits of .272/.389/.573 over the past three seasons are very impressive. However, compare it to his home splits of .323/.438/.619 and it doesn't look all that good anymore.

Even if he does rake in Fenway since when is .272/.389/.573 at home something to look down on?

turners56
10-28-2008, 08:42 PM
Even if he does rake in Fenway since when is .272/.389/.573 at home something to look down on?

My argument is that Fenway is causing him to hit better. And by the splits, that seems right. So if a player is hitting 50 points higher, getting on base 5% more, and slugging 40 percentage points higher at home than on the road, would you not say that his home park is helping his statistics? I understand that most hitters feel more comfortable in a familiar scenery and being able to sleep in their own beds, but that's a pretty big difference between his home/road statistics. And I never said his road stats sucked, I said they were impressive. They just don't look as good as they do at home.

btrain929
10-28-2008, 08:48 PM
It's not hindsight, before that draft BA and other publication said Broadway was a 4 or 5 starter that fringy stuff that wouldn't play well in the majors. There's no hindsight, it was a bad pick the moment it was made.

He was projected as a first round pick, but the garbage Sox scouting department clearly saw something that no other would have touched in the first round. I've like to see this organziation become more aggressive in nabing proven scouts from other teams. **** the Tigers just stole the Twins minor league pitching cordinator. Who knows if he can help, but clearly that organization realizes how poorly the arms are in their systems (outside of Porcello) and made an agressive more to get a proven guy in there to help out.

If only we could of looked at the BOS scouts' notepad before that draft, we could have gotten Ellsbury, Buchholz, Lowrie, or Bowden, all who was drafted after Broadway (Matt Garza too).

hellview
10-28-2008, 09:03 PM
My argument is that Fenway is causing him to hit better. And by the splits, that seems right. So if a player is hitting 50 points higher, getting on base 5% more, and slugging 40 percentage points higher at home than on the road, would you not say that his home park is helping his statistics? I understand that most hitters feel more comfortable in a familiar scenery and being able to sleep in their own beds, but that's a pretty big difference between his home/road statistics. And I never said his road stats sucked, I said they were impressive. They just don't look as good as they do at home.

Well I assume there's alot of players that hit better at home cause teams get players that fit the park they'll play 81 games in. Pedroia fits in Fenway cause all his pop is when he pulls the ball, same with Giambi in Yankees stadium with the short right field.

That's how alot of teams go after the players they sign.

hellview
10-28-2008, 09:05 PM
If only we could of looked at the BOS scouts' notepad before that draft, we could have gotten Ellsbury, Buchholz, Lowrie, or Bowden, all who was drafted after Broadway (Matt Garza too).

You understand, even if they can't get the scouts start going overslot more. The Yankees don't have these great scouts, the spend money on Boras clients and strong college commitments that fall in the draft. I don't see any reason the why the Sox won't commit more money to the draft to help out a poor minor league system.

SCCWS
10-28-2008, 09:44 PM
Pedroia fits in Fenway cause all his pop is when he pulls the ball, same with Giambi in Yankees stadium with the short right field.


HUH?????? Pedroia hit 17 homeruns this season. 7 at Fenway and 10 on the road.

turners56
10-28-2008, 09:46 PM
Pedroia fits in Fenway cause all his pop is when he pulls the ball, same with Giambi in Yankees stadium with the short right field.


HUH?????? Pedroia hit 17 homeruns this season. 7 at Fenway and 10 on the road.

Look at Pedroia's doubles. The monster is certainly helping him out.

hellview
10-28-2008, 10:18 PM
Pedroia fits in Fenway cause all his pop is when he pulls the ball, same with Giambi in Yankees stadium with the short right field.


HUH?????? Pedroia hit 17 homeruns this season. 7 at Fenway and 10 on the road.

I guess I should have said pop isn't just homers. .519 SLG at Fenway, .468 on the road. He put up good road numbers but the guy is built for Fenway.

october23sp
10-28-2008, 10:21 PM
Find a list of former football-player stiffs who can't play baseball [like Erstad, Fields, Borchard, KW, Jr., ad nauseum] and that will give you a good idea as to who KW will sign.

Erstad was pretty good with the Angels.
Not just saying that because hes one of only three major leagers from North Dakota (Erstad, Coste, Hafner)

champagne030
10-28-2008, 10:38 PM
Hopefully the comment about Poreda to the bullpen came from information inside the organization. He's a two-pitch pitcher and unless they completely overhaul his motion it will stay that way. He throws 3/4 and when coming over the top, cannot keep velocity or movement on his fastball or slider. He's a bullpen guy and the sooner they admit it, the sooner we'll have a better arm in our 'pen.

manders_01
10-28-2008, 11:32 PM
I would like the Sox to pick up

Garret Atkins 3B
Chone Figgins 2B

I am an Atkins fan.

Me too! I love me some Gatkins - it would be amazing to have my favorite player on my favorite team! :wooty: Although I'd miss him here. :whiner:

Garrett Atkins is not good folks. Not sure what is stopping people from realizing that.

Totally disagree. He's had his ups and downs but he's at worse an average baseball player. I think he's better than average. He also is a leader in the clubhouse. After OC, having someone like that in our clubhouse would not be a terrible idea IMO.

They're moving Atkins to make room for Ian Stewart. Holliday would be moved solely because they won't reach an agreement on a long-term extension and want to strike while the iron is hot and get some good players back.

Not exactly. The Rockies would rather trade Helton and move Atkins to 1B but buying out Helton's contract would cost them too much. However, this may all resolve itself. Helton underwent back surgery a few weeks ago. Well all know how well that went with Joe and Todd's got a few years on him.

btrain929
10-28-2008, 11:40 PM
Hopefully the comment about Poreda to the bullpen came from information inside the organization. He's a two-pitch pitcher and unless they completely overhaul his motion it will stay that way. He throws 3/4 and when coming over the top, cannot keep velocity or movement on his fastball or slider. He's a bullpen guy and the sooner they admit it, the sooner we'll have a better arm in our 'pen.

Can't he learn a cutter and/or changeup? They aren't too hard to learn and can make a world of difference.

MisterB
10-29-2008, 02:53 AM
Totally disagree. He's had his ups and downs but he's at worse an average baseball player. I think he's better than average. He also is a leader in the clubhouse. After OC, having someone like that in our clubhouse would not be a terrible idea IMO.

In his career he's hit .337/.394/.527 at Coors Field and .260/.328/.424 on the road. On top of that, he'd be going from facing NL pitching to facing AL pitching (he's hit .275/.322/.414 in interleague). Were he on the Sox, I'd expect him to hit like pre-2006 Joe Crede, but with nowhere near Crede's defense.

Not particularly exciting. :dunno:

khan
10-30-2008, 12:33 PM
Erstad was pretty good with the Angels.
He had ONE decent year with the Angels. Outside of that ONE decent year, he's inhaled forcefully for the remainder of his career. And the fact that KW knew him to be a former football player made it a certainty that Erstad would be here in some capacity.