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getonbckthr
10-20-2008, 05:27 PM
Apparently the Cards are gonna buy him out. I also read he is finally healthy. I would like the Sox to take a chance on him for a cheap incentive contract. WOrst case he gets hurt, retires and Richard takes over. Best case he returns to form and dominates.

CashMan
10-20-2008, 05:29 PM
Apparently the Cards are gonna buy him out. I also read he is finally healthy. I would like the Sox to take a chance on him for a cheap incentive contract. WOrst case he gets hurt, retires and Richard takes over. Best case he returns to form and dominates.


Minimum deal, I would take him.

hellview
10-20-2008, 05:43 PM
If he's healthy why would the Cards just pick up his option for 2009? His buyout is 1.5 million so salary for 2009 would be 9.5 million. If he's really health now it doesn't make any sense that the Card would take the riskm instead of buying him out.

Foulke You
10-20-2008, 05:47 PM
If he's healthy why would the Cards just pick up his option for 2009? His buyout is 1.5 million so salary for 2009 would be 9.5 million. If he's really health now it doesn't make any sense that the Card would take the riskm instead of buying him out.
You are forgetting that the Cardinals have been pretty cost conscious lately (i.e. cheap). They also just broke their tiny bank on giving a 4 year deal to the incredibly mediocre Kyle Lohse so they most likely didn't have any pennies left to spend on Mulder who is fresh off of multiple injury plagued seasons.

soxfan43
10-20-2008, 05:49 PM
As soon as I saw he got bought out, I thought about him and the Sox. He's going to have to take a cheap deal, might as well do it with his hometown team.

doublem23
10-20-2008, 05:58 PM
Coop can fix him.

jabrch
10-20-2008, 06:05 PM
If Duncan and LaRussa can't get any productivity from him, I'm guessing he has nothing left in the tank.

If Coop sees something - why not for the minimum? But I am guessing his time and energy can be better used on guys who have upside.

veeter
10-20-2008, 06:35 PM
It's funny because when I first saw Richard throw, he reminded me of Mulder. If he's healthy enough I say give him a chance.

oeo
10-20-2008, 07:19 PM
It's funny because when I first saw Richard throw, he reminded me of Mulder. If he's healthy enough I say give him a chance.

What about him? The arm he throws with?

Richard doesn't have a very high ceiling, let's get that straight. I didn't see anything special out of him, besides that he's got balls. Put him in the bullpen, make him a LOOGY, maybe a little more if he succeeds in that role, but I don't want him in the rotation next year (probably never).

Now people are going to say, well, some said the same about Gavin. I actually liked what I saw from Gavin last year, and that's your fault if you didn't think he was on the way up. I certainly didn't expect a breakout season to the extent he had, but I did expect him to be solid. Richard, meh, is a guy that is going to get killed once the league knows about him.

BTW, I wasn't implying that you wanted Richard in the rotation. In fact, you want Mulder, so I'm sure you wouldn't like Richard in the rotation. I just wanted to get that off my chest. People get so caught up in the 'what have you done for me lately', and want veteran pitchers gone (Javy), with low ceiling rookies taking over. It's just frustrating.

getonbckthr
10-20-2008, 09:00 PM
What about him? The arm he throws with?

Richard doesn't have a very high ceiling, let's get that straight. I didn't see anything special out of him, besides that he's got balls. Put him in the bullpen, make him a LOOGY, maybe a little more if he succeeds in that role, but I don't want him in the rotation next year (probably never).

Now people are going to say, well, some said the same about Gavin. I actually liked what I saw from Gavin last year, and that's your fault if you didn't think he was on the way up. I certainly didn't expect a breakout season to the extent he had, but I did expect him to be solid. Richard, meh, is a guy that is going to get killed once the league knows about him.

BTW, I wasn't implying that you wanted Richard in the rotation. In fact, you want Mulder, so I'm sure you wouldn't like Richard in the rotation. I just wanted to get that off my chest. People get so caught up in the 'what have you done for me lately', and want veteran pitchers gone (Javy), with low ceiling rookies taking over. It's just frustrating.
I wish Javy had the balls Richard has. I also wish Richard has the "stuff" Javy has.

veeter
10-20-2008, 09:06 PM
What about him? The arm he throws with?

Richard doesn't have a very high ceiling, let's get that straight. I didn't see anything special out of him, besides that he's got balls. Put him in the bullpen, make him a LOOGY, maybe a little more if he succeeds in that role, but I don't want him in the rotation next year (probably never).

Now people are going to say, well, some said the same about Gavin. I actually liked what I saw from Gavin last year, and that's your fault if you didn't think he was on the way up. I certainly didn't expect a breakout season to the extent he had, but I did expect him to be solid. Richard, meh, is a guy that is going to get killed once the league knows about him.

BTW, I wasn't implying that you wanted Richard in the rotation. In fact, you want Mulder, so I'm sure you wouldn't like Richard in the rotation. I just wanted to get that off my chest. People get so caught up in the 'what have you done for me lately', and want veteran pitchers gone (Javy), with low ceiling rookies taking over. It's just frustrating.Wow. To be honest with you, I don't want either of them in the rotation. I want Kenny to sign a free agant to go along with MB, Gavin, Danks and Javy. We'll see what happens. I do think also, that Richard would be excellent out of the pen.

turners56
10-20-2008, 09:34 PM
He's a home-town kid. If it doesn't cost much, why the hell not?

WhiteSox5187
10-20-2008, 11:55 PM
If the Cards are letting him go, I don't think he's healthy, but for a low contract, I'd take a gamble on him.

LoveYourSuit
10-21-2008, 12:07 AM
I just wanted to get that off my chest. People get so caught up in the 'what have you done for me lately', and want veteran pitchers gone (Javy), with low ceiling rookies taking over. It's just frustrating.


Please add Dwayne Wise to the stupidity list. Some of the nonesene I heard from Sox fans the last month about perhaps penciling him in as your CF next season almost made want to stab myself in the neck.

CWSpalehoseCWS
10-21-2008, 04:13 AM
We're gonna need someone to take Contreras' place next year, so why not keep him as a possible option? Richard belongs in the bullpen. I don't want to see Logan anywhere near this team.

cws05champ
10-21-2008, 08:10 AM
I think Richard should be in the pen as well, and a spot starter if needed. He just needs more seasoning. I don't agree that he doesn't have some upside as a decent starter though. People thought the same about Buehrle when he came up...his stuff wasn't impressive and he'd never be more than a back end of the rotation guy. Richard has better stuff than Mark and his delivery adds some deception.

If he can have success in the pen next year, then you may have a starter for 2010.

btrain929
10-21-2008, 09:00 AM
I think Richard should be in the pen as well, and a spot starter if needed. He just needs more seasoning. I don't agree that he doesn't have some upside as a decent starter though. People thought the same about Buehrle when he came up...his stuff wasn't impressive and he'd never be more than a back end of the rotation guy. Richard has better stuff than Mark and his delivery adds some deception.

If he can have success in the pen next year, then you may have a starter for 2010.

That would be great if it did happen that way, because Contreras is a FA after '09, so we wouldn't have to waste money on a FA SP if Richard can step right in. Time will tell...

oeo
10-21-2008, 09:30 AM
That would be great if it did happen that way, because Contreras is a FA after '09, so we wouldn't have to waste money on a FA SP if Richard can step right in. Time will tell...

I think Kenny will be looking for another young gun this offseason to insert into the rotation in 2010, or by at least 2011. Javy is only signed through 2010, and they can't afford to sign free agent pitchers two years in a row.

I just really don't see Richard in the rotation plans. Please don't compare him to Buehrle and even say he has better stuff. What, a better fastball, that when he does throw it in the mid-90s, he's not very effective? That's about all he has on Buehrle.

Domeshot17
10-21-2008, 09:53 AM
I think Kenny will be looking for another young gun this offseason to insert into the rotation in 2010, or by at least 2011. Javy is only signed through 2010, and they can't afford to sign free agent pitchers two years in a row.

I just really don't see Richard in the rotation plans. Please don't compare him to Buehrle and even say he has better stuff. What, a better fastball, that when he does throw it in the mid-90s, he's not very effective? That's about all he has on Buehrle.

agreed. Richard love is coming from 1 great bullpen outting in the playoffs. People seem to forget the 6 era he had last year. The games he pitched well? Predominantly Lefty Lineups. I said in a different post, I think hes going to be great in the pen next year.

I also think we need to find an SP to put INFRONT of the other 4, not behind. Mulder years ago could have been that, but he will never be the Cy Young Calibur SP he was in Oakland.

btrain929
10-21-2008, 10:00 AM
agreed. Richard love is coming from 1 great bullpen outting in the playoffs. People seem to forget the 6 era he had last year. The games he pitched well? Predominantly Lefty Lineups. I said in a different post, I think hes going to be great in the pen next year.

I also think we need to find an SP to put INFRONT of the other 4, not behind. Mulder years ago could have been that, but he will never be the Cy Young Calibur SP he was in Oakland.

John Lackey is a free agent after the '09 season....

jabrch
10-21-2008, 10:55 AM
I wish Javy had the balls Richard has. I also wish Richard has the "stuff" Javy has.

I wish "having balls" actually meant something. It doesn't. Execution is much more important than testicles.

doublem23
10-21-2008, 11:14 AM
I think Kenny will be looking for another young gun this offseason to insert into the rotation in 2010, or by at least 2011. Javy is only signed through 2010, and they can't afford to sign free agent pitchers two years in a row.

I just really don't see Richard in the rotation plans. Please don't compare him to Buehrle and even say he has better stuff. What, a better fastball, that when he does throw it in the mid-90s, he's not very effective? That's about all he has on Buehrle.

I like Richard as a potential lefty bullpen arm, but I am not very optimistic about his chances as anything less than a mediocre guy at the back end of someone's rotation.

oeo
10-21-2008, 11:25 AM
I wish "having balls" actually meant something. It doesn't. Execution is much more important than testicles.

As a man, I disagree.

In all seriousness, it's about mental makeup. Richard appears to have it. He pitched a good game at Yankee Stadium, and he pitched well in the postseason...all as a rookie who was just called up in August. It probably has a lot to do with going to Michigan to play football.

Javy does not have a good mental makeup. He's easily rattled, and lets things get to him. The mental side of baseball is just as important as the physical side, if not more so. You can't let emotions get the best of you, you have to control them. Javy can't do that.

BTW, I'm a Javy supporter.

btrain929
10-21-2008, 11:32 AM
As a man, I disagree.

In all seriousness, it's about mental makeup. Richard appears to have it. He pitched a good game at Yankee Stadium, and he pitched well in the postseason...all as a rookie who was just called up in August. It probably has a lot to do with going to Michigan to play football.

Javy does not have a good mental makeup. He's easily rattled, and lets things get to him. The mental side of baseball is just as important as the physical side, if not more so. You can't let emotions get the best of you, you have to control them. Javy can't do that.

BTW, I'm a Javy supporter.

Not to mention only pitching in 20 games above High-A ball in his minor league career, also coming this year.

doublem23
10-21-2008, 11:34 AM
I wish "having balls" actually meant something. It doesn't. Execution is much more important than testicles.

Execution is different than a pitcher's actual stuff and yes, "balls" does matter. Some pitchers don't get fazed by big games or tough situations; you can call that whatever you want, mental toughness, big game ability, being clutch, "having balls," etc., but some players have it, and some don't.

khan
10-21-2008, 11:55 AM
If Mulder can be had at a reasonable price, why not?

After all, this is a team that gambled on an injured/past it Loaiza...

whitesox901
10-21-2008, 12:02 PM
Does everyone remember that Richard had a 6.00+ ERA?

kittle42
10-21-2008, 12:05 PM
Does everyone remember that Richard had a 6.00+ ERA?

People remember what they want and tend to remember recent events more.

Richard got battered, but people remember that he pitched well enough at Yankee Stadium and pretty well in the playoffs, so he's gold.

Vazquez sucked in a couple big games at the end of the season and in the playoffs, though he pitched at or near his usual level over the course of the season, so he's junk.

Tragg
10-21-2008, 12:08 PM
Does everyone remember that Richard had a 6.00+ ERA?
IN his first year of play. And he had several good outings for 4 or 5 innings, only to suffer a really bad inning. The lack of patience given to rookies compared to proven hack veterans remains bizarre.

Heard the same thing about Floyd (although even a basic analysis beyond the superficial would have revealed to anyone who looked that he pitched a lot better in 2007 than his ERA reflected).

oeo
10-21-2008, 12:19 PM
IN his first year of play. And he had several good outings for 4 or 5 innings, only to suffer a really bad inning. The lack of patience given to rookies compared to proven hack veterans remains bizarre.

Heard the same thing about Floyd (although even a basic analysis beyond the superficial would have revealed to anyone who looked that he pitched a lot better in 2007 than his ERA reflected).

I just don't think Richard's stuff is good enough to be in a starting rotation. Once again, Floyd was a high ceiling guy that didn't put it together yet. When Richard has Floyd's fastball and curve, come talk to me.

guillen4life13
10-21-2008, 01:08 PM
IN his first year of play. And he had several good outings for 4 or 5 innings, only to suffer a really bad inning. The lack of patience given to rookies compared to proven hack veterans remains bizarre.

Heard the same thing about Floyd (although even a basic analysis beyond the superficial would have revealed to anyone who looked that he pitched a lot better in 2007 than his ERA reflected).

123

I am well aware of the ERA Richard put up but I really liked his approach to the plate. Quick and aggressive. Decent K-BB ratio that should only improve and he has historically been a groundball pitcher. This is exactly what the Sox need out of a pitcher. And he's still quite young.

My bigger problem with having him is that he would be the 3rd finesse lefty in the rotation.
I do believe that in the long run, Richard will make his money as a relief pitcher but I also believe that he has a chance to be a decent 3-5 starter on a good team.


Edit: If the price is right, I don't see anything wrong with signing Mulder to an incentive laden deal. There's always that small chance the Sox can catch lightning in a bottle and get some decent outings out of him. Similar to El Duque.

doublem23
10-21-2008, 01:13 PM
Does everyone remember that Richard had a 6.00+ ERA?

In less than 50 IP of work. FWIW, Gavin Floyd there 54.3 innings in his first 2 years in the MLB and had a combined ERA of 6.26, so sometimes you need to give a guy a bit more of a chance.

That said, I don't know if Richard has what it takes to be a dependable starter in the Majors, but I think he can be a valuable arm to have in one's bullpen.

CashMan
10-21-2008, 01:29 PM
In less than 50 IP of work. FWIW, Gavin Floyd there 54.3 innings in his first 2 years in the MLB and had a combined ERA of 6.26, so sometimes you need to give a guy a bit more of a chance.

That said, I don't know if Richard has what it takes to be a dependable starter in the Majors, but I think he can be a valuable arm to have in one's bullpen.

I concur, IF Kenny can find a better starter, I would want Richard in the bullpen. He would be a HUGE upgrade over Boone Logan.

tstrike2000
10-21-2008, 01:59 PM
In less than 50 IP of work. FWIW, Gavin Floyd there 54.3 innings in his first 2 years in the MLB and had a combined ERA of 6.26, so sometimes you need to give a guy a bit more of a chance.

That said, I don't know if Richard has what it takes to be a dependable starter in the Majors, but I think he can be a valuable arm to have in one's bullpen.

True, so far Richard appears to have a lot more upside than some of the garbage we've had in the last two years. Always, too a valuable commidity to have a young lefty.

WhiteSox5187
10-21-2008, 02:11 PM
People remember what they want and tend to remember recent events more.

Richard got battered, but people remember that he pitched well enough at Yankee Stadium and pretty well in the playoffs, so he's gold.

Vazquez sucked in a couple big games at the end of the season and in the playoffs, though he pitched at or near his usual level over the course of the season, so he's junk.
It's not that he sucked in a COUPLE of big games, it's that he sucked in EVERY big game down the stretch and that says a lot about his mental make up. At the end of the day Javy is nothing more than a good fourth starter, but he should not be allowed to pitch in big games.

veeter
10-21-2008, 02:53 PM
I concur, IF Kenny can find a better starter, I would want Richard in the bullpen. He would be a HUGE upgrade over Boone Logan.And whereas Logan is just a specialist, Clayton can be a long man as well.

kittle42
10-21-2008, 03:01 PM
It's not that he sucked in a COUPLE of big games, it's that he sucked in EVERY big game down the stretch and that says a lot about his mental make up. At the end of the day Javy is nothing more than a good fourth starter, but he should not be allowed to pitch in big games.

You take the good (or decent) with the bad. It's very difficult to juggle the rotation without the help of off days. They were already trying to avoid starting their fifth starter unless they had to. And they pitched Vazquez on 3 days' rest, which other posters have pointed out. So you're stuck with him pitching that occasional "big game."

Before this season, he has a "fifth inning headcase." Now, he's a "big game headcase." Bottom line is he's still a pretty good 4th starter option.

oeo
10-21-2008, 03:16 PM
In less than 50 IP of work. FWIW, Gavin Floyd there 54.3 innings in his first 2 years in the MLB and had a combined ERA of 6.26, so sometimes you need to give a guy a bit more of a chance.

That said, I don't know if Richard has what it takes to be a dependable starter in the Majors, but I think he can be a valuable arm to have in one's bullpen.

First people are comparing him to Buehrle (of all people), now to Floyd? Again, when Richard develops Floyd's fastball and curve, we can talk. Until then, Richard's stuff is mediocre (at best) and won't survive.

btrain929
10-21-2008, 04:04 PM
I would definitely like to see us get a proven, better option for our 5th starter, with Richard as our long man. BUT, if that isn't the case and it is given to him, I hope people keep in mind that he would be our 5TH STARTER and in his first FULL YEAR IN THE BIGS. I wouldn't expect anymore than 8-11 wins and an ERA around 5-5.50.

turners56
10-21-2008, 04:15 PM
agreed. Richard love is coming from 1 great bullpen outting in the playoffs. People seem to forget the 6 era he had last year. The games he pitched well? Predominantly Lefty Lineups. I said in a different post, I think hes going to be great in the pen next year.

I also think we need to find an SP to put INFRONT of the other 4, not behind. Mulder years ago could have been that, but he will never be the Cy Young Calibur SP he was in Oakland.

He pitched his best game against the Yankees. Their lineup is really balanced.
His first career victory was against Seattle and the only left handed bats they had were Ichiro and Ibanez. He does do well against left handed lineups, but the guy progressed pretty well throughout the season.

thomas35forever
10-21-2008, 05:04 PM
I don't know. I just don't see myself trusting Mulder. I mean he's got a history of health problems and his best days could be behind him even though he's 31. It seems like almost every pitcher to go through St. Louis leaves with an unhealthy arm. I'll say no, but I guess that's why I'm not a GM.

Tragg
10-21-2008, 06:56 PM
I just don't think Richard's stuff is good enough to be in a starting rotation. Once again, Floyd was a high ceiling guy that didn't put it together yet. When Richard has Floyd's fastball and curve, come talk to me. Floyd's no flamethrower any more, to the extent speed = stuff; and the Sox under this regime have always liked hard-throwers - overrated them in many cases. Floyd's best pitch is that sharp-breaking curveball. How many people talked about Floyd's curveball last year at this time?
I know Richard won't be a flamethrower; but he has poise and if he can develop one really good pitch and throw a lot of strikes, he can help this ballclub.
As much as I question the ability of this field staff in evaluating hitters, they seem to have a good eye for pitchers. You could tell in 05 and 06 that they weren't sold on McCarthy, e.g. They were right. Just one example. Now I have no idea how they view Richard.

sullythered
10-21-2008, 07:19 PM
Does everyone remember that Richard had a 6.00+ ERA?
And what was Danks' ERA in 07? I think Richard has a shot of being and effective starter. He has stuff to work on, sure. But I really liked the way he changed speed and location when he pitched. He seemed to pitch well and then have one big inning where he got roughed. That is a lot better for a rookie than when guys give up one or two runs per inning.

oeo
10-21-2008, 07:46 PM
Floyd's no flamethrower any more, to the extent speed = stuff; and the Sox under this regime have always liked hard-throwers - overrated them in many cases. Floyd's best pitch is that sharp-breaking curveball.

I'm not talking about Floyd being a flamethrower. He can touch the mid-90s (consistently 92-94), with good movement. His fastball sets that breaking ball up. His problem in his postseason start, is he had no command over his fastball.

How many people talked about Floyd's curveball last year at this time?I was. :dunno:

People that said it was gone were talking out of their ass. He certainly couldn't get it over as consistently (hell, even in April this year he still kept hanging it up and in to righties), but he was improving from the day he was called up. I seem to remember two starts at the end of 2007 where he really had that curve ball working.

And what was Danks' ERA in 07? I think Richard has a shot of being and effective starter. He has stuff to work on, sure. But I really liked the way he changed speed and location when he pitched. He seemed to pitch well and then have one big inning where he got roughed. That is a lot better for a rookie than when guys give up one or two runs per inning.

Danks has much (much) better stuff than Richard. Who cares what Danks' ERA was? He was a 22-year-old who tired down the stretch.

I really don't care what Richard's ERA was, either. Whether it was 0 or 10, his stuff doesn't look like anything that can survive in a major league rotation.

Now because Danks and Floyd proved everyone wrong, every other young pitcher is going to be another Danks or Floyd? GMAB.

And before people start equating my opinion on Richard with disliking him: I really like the guy. I've followed him the past two years because he's from Lafayette. I hope he succeeds here...I just don't think it will ever be as a starting pitcher.

PaleHoser
10-21-2008, 09:10 PM
I wish Javy had the balls Richard has. I also wish Richard has the "stuff" Javy has.

Amen. :gulp:

WhiteSox5187
10-21-2008, 09:22 PM
I'm not talking about Floyd being a flamethrower. He can touch the mid-90s (consistently 92-94), with good movement. His fastball sets that breaking ball up. His problem in his postseason start, is he had no command over his fastball.

I was. :dunno:

People that said it was gone were talking out of their ass. He certainly couldn't get it over as consistently (hell, even in April this year he still kept hanging it up and in to righties), but he was improving from the day he was called up. I seem to remember two starts at the end of 2007 where he really had that curve ball working.


Towards the end of '07 Floyd was actually looking pretty good, but so was Jerry Owens so I think a lot of people (or at least me) were hesistant to trust starts he made in September on a ninety loss team.

GAsoxfan
10-22-2008, 11:03 AM
I also think we need to find an SP to put INFRONT of the other 4, not behind. Mulder years ago could have been that, but he will never be the Cy Young Calibur SP he was in Oakland.

I think that would be everyone's first choice, but unless an internal option develops into that pitcher, I don't see it happening. The Sox don't have the assets to trade for that type of pitcher, and I don't see them giving $15-$20/year to a free agent.

khan
10-22-2008, 12:03 PM
I also think we need to find an SP to put INFRONT of the other 4, not behind. Mulder years ago could have been that, but he will never be the Cy Young Calibur SP he was in Oakland.
In an ideal world, that would be perfect. But in breaking news:

I'm told that we don't live in an ideal world. A "SP to put INFRONT of the other 4" would likely cost ~$15M+/yr, OR further bloodletting in trade. The former probably won't happen, unless you believe that The Chairman will suddenly agree to a ~$150M payroll next season. The latter would immediately gut the team, and relegate us to years of mediocrity, followed by the eventual offloading of said "SP to put INFRONT of the other 4".

Oh, and getting a "SP to put INFRONT of the other 4," [were it even possible] would mean that the SOX would have to put up with all of the following:

1. Josh Fields' scissorhands and 200 strikeouts at 3rd,
2. Getz at 2nd,
3. More of the Nick Swisher/DeWayne Wise/Jerry Owens three-headed monster at CF.

OR

A trade that STARTS with Dye or Quentin, Danks, and Beckham.

Good luck with that.


For my part, I'd take a chance with filling in the back end of the rotation with Mulder or a reasonably-priced veteran, and keep the majority of the team intact. With the ~$15M-$20M that would've gone to the hypothetical "SP to put INFRONT of the other 4," sign Hudson or Furcal, trade for Figgins, and add another bullpen arm and/or backup Catcher.

oeo
10-22-2008, 12:21 PM
Towards the end of '07 Floyd was actually looking pretty good, but so was Jerry Owens so I think a lot of people (or at least me) were hesistant to trust starts he made in September on a ninety loss team.

Well I guess that just about squashes that lame theory, doesn't it?