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Mohoney
10-15-2008, 05:54 AM
We need to make every effort possible to get this bullpen in a total lock down mode. IMO, it's way more important than the clamoring for speed at the top of the lineup.

I honestly don't think that the slow, one-dimensional offense is the biggest problem facing this team right now. I think that the biggest problem is handing the ball to people like Horacio Ramirez, Ehren Wasserman, Mike MacDougal, Boone Logan, etc. in the late innings and watching chances to win games blow up in our faces.

I think that Jeremy Affeldt and Juan Cruz would look great in our bullpen with Octavio Dotel, Matt Thornton, Scott Linebrink, and Bobby Jenks. Granted, this bullpen might cost upwards of $30 million to put together next year, but I think that the benefit would make the cost worth it.

I would be more than willing to trim in other areas to put a bullpen like this together. I would rather go into next season with total question marks at 3B, 2B, and CF than go into next season with any one of Ramirez, Logan, MacDougal, or Wasserman ever pitching the ball again.

Frater Perdurabo
10-15-2008, 06:28 AM
It's possible to improve the bullpen and fill holes. I know I'm a broken record, but if you can trade Paulie to the Angels for Figgins, you've saved payroll that in turn could be invested in Affeldt and Cruz. You've also solved the leadoff problem and filled 3B, and found Swisher a position. Sign Orlando Hudson for 2B and bite the bullet with BA in CF.

Lineup: Figgins, Hudson, Quentin, Thome, Dye, AJ, Alexei, Swisher, BA

Rotation: Buehrle, Floyd, Danks, Vazquez, Richard

Bullpen: Jenks, Linebrink, Affeldt, Cruz, Dotel, Thornton, Carrasco

Bench: Uribe, Hall, Wise, Getz

SCCWS
10-15-2008, 07:26 AM
Figgins, Hudson, Quentin, Thome, Dye, AJ, Alexei, Swisher, BA



Big problem---- Hudson is a below average 2nd baseman defensively. Alexi was a below average 2nd baseman defensively. So put them together and you have a poor defensive infield. So improving the bullpen would be negated by a pourous infield.

Lukin13
10-15-2008, 07:34 AM
When the original poster started a thread about a spending spree like major league baseball has never seen for a bullpen; I am pretty sure he didn't want another Chone Figgins/Orlando Hudson thread.

KW spent pretty much uprescedented money on middle releivers last offseason. I think he was the early bird in this sense: it is only going to get worse.

Do I think there is another 3YR/10Million middle relief contract coming? No. Especially considering the risk, KW got pretty lucky with Dotel and Linebrink both being healthy and effective; if you remember this was not a given when they inked up with the Sox. Linebrink was coming off a terrible second half and Dotel had arm issues.

Would I like to see Fuentes or Cruz on the southside next year? Absolutely, it is not my money; but if I was working with even a loose leash around my neck, I would say the only bullpen money that gets spent this year is Bobby's raise.

After your go-to guys (which we have), you need to catch lightning in a bottle with your 4-7 options.

The Dude
10-15-2008, 07:47 AM
Figgins, Hudson, Quentin, Thome, Dye, AJ, Alexei, Swisher, BA



Big problem---- Hudson is a below average 2nd baseman defensively. Alexi was a below average 2nd baseman defensively. So put them together and you have a poor defensive infield. So improving the bullpen would be negated by a pourous infield.

:?: What games were you watching? The guy made some incredible plays and at the very least was average. Get a clue. :rolleyes:

hellview
10-15-2008, 08:10 AM
Hudson is a below average 2nd baseman defensively.

What the hell are you talking about, Hudson is yearly one of the top 2b in +/- and zone ratings. He's one of the best 2b gloves in the league.


What games were you watching? The guy made some incredible plays and at the very least was average. Get a clue


Alexei was garbage at 2b, I know people see a few web gems and get tight in the pants. But Alexei's glove is pretty crappy at 2b.

hellview
10-15-2008, 08:12 AM
I know I'm a broken record, but if you can trade Paulie to the Angels for Figgins

STOP!!! It's not gonna happen.

NLaloosh
10-15-2008, 08:17 AM
As far as Alexei's play at 2B, you're both right. He is a great defender but last year he was raw at times also. But, that has to be expected.

Firstly, he was a SS. He had very little experience at 2B. Secondly, he'd never played in this country - no minor league experience at all. Give him a break. He needs some time but he will be an an excellent defender at ss, 2b or cf - given the time.


I do think that one more excellent RH set-up man would make this a devestating pen. If the Angels sign KRod then maybe Shields gets a little too expensive and expendable? A guy like that would be huge for the Sox.

I would love this pen: Jenks, Shields,Linebrink,Dotel,Carrasco, Thornton and Richard.

hellview
10-15-2008, 08:21 AM
As far as Alexei's play at 2B, you're both right. He is a great defender but last year he was raw at times also. But, that has to be expected.

Firstly, he was a SS. He had very little experience at 2B. Secondly, he'd never played in this country - no minor league experience at all. Give him a break. He needs some time but he will be an an excellent defender at ss, 2b or cf - given the time.


I do think that one more excellent RH set-up man would make this a devestating pen. If the Angels sign KRod then maybe Shields gets a little too expensive and expendable? A guy like that would be huge for the Sox.

I would love this pen: Jenks, Shields,Linebrink,Dotel,Carrasco, Thornton and Richard.

What does not playing in the US have to do with his defense? Does the ball find the holes less in Cuba, is firstbase farther away.

As for Shields, he's signed to a steal of a contract through 2010 so I don't see that happening.

oeo
10-15-2008, 08:34 AM
We need to make every effort possible to get this bullpen in a total lock down mode. IMO, it's way more important than the clamoring for speed at the top of the lineup.

I honestly don't think that the slow, one-dimensional offense is the biggest problem facing this team right now. I think that the biggest problem is handing the ball to people like Horacio Ramirez, Ehren Wasserman, Mike MacDougal, Boone Logan, etc. in the late innings and watching chances to win games blow up in our faces.

I think that Jeremy Affeldt and Juan Cruz would look great in our bullpen with Octavio Dotel, Matt Thornton, Scott Linebrink, and Bobby Jenks. Granted, this bullpen might cost upwards of $30 million to put together next year, but I think that the benefit would make the cost worth it.

I would be more than willing to trim in other areas to put a bullpen like this together. I would rather go into next season with total question marks at 3B, 2B, and CF than go into next season with any one of Ramirez, Logan, MacDougal, or Wasserman ever pitching the ball again.

We haven't invested in the bullpen? Why were Linebrink and Dotel in Sox uniforms then? :scratch:

The problem was not so much the guys you listed, but that we had to go to them. When our starting pitching couldn't get out of the fourth inning, we had no choice but to use those guys.

The bullpen is not as bad as you make it seem. Ramirez, MacDougal, Logan, and Wassermann were never all in the same pen until September call-ups. If any of them are in the pen next year (and I doubt they will be), it will only be one of them and they will be the last slot. We have four good guys in Jenks, Linebrink, Dotel, and Thornton, which is more than a lot of teams can say. And if we consistently get 6 or 7 innings from our starters, we will be fine.

BTW, what killed us in the postseason? Was it really our bullpen? Or was it the inability to drive in runs in key situations? And you want to keep this same offense, and look at the bullpen? I don't even think the problem is necessarily that they're 'slow and plodding', but that they can't make contact. Our focus needs to be on the offense, not the bullpen.

What does not playing in the US have to do with his defense? Does the ball find the holes less in Cuba, is firstbase farther away.

No, but most of the fundamentals will not be there due to the lack of quality training. Range was never a problem with Alexei this year, which can't be taught...his problems were more fundamental. And he improved a hell of a lot as the season went on.

KyWhiSoxFan
10-15-2008, 08:41 AM
You won't see a big change in the bullpen for next year. I believe we'll only see one new face, maximum. KW will have other priorities in the offseason, and the bullpen is not the biggest problem he needs to fix.

Jenks, Linebrink, Thornton, and Dotel will be back. After that, I think Richard is the long man in the pen (taking the left role from Logan and Ramirez, if Richard is not a starter). That leaves one spot. Maybe Carrasco comes back. Maybe the sixth man is the new face. But that's about all you'll see in terms of changes to the pen.

Craig Grebeck
10-15-2008, 09:02 AM
Ugh. Signing Cruz and Affeldt will cost us draft picks. We can't just throw money at the bullpen. Cruz has poor control and Affeldt is historically not very good. I'd rather stick with Boone than Affeldt and give a guy like Derek Rodriguez the nod over Cruz.

Domeshot17
10-15-2008, 09:09 AM
We haven't invested in the bullpen? Why were Linebrink and Dotel in Sox uniforms then? :scratch:

The problem was not so much the guys you listed, but that we had to go to them. When our starting pitching couldn't get out of the fourth inning, we had no choice but to use those guys.

The bullpen is not as bad as you make it seem. Ramirez, MacDougal, Logan, and Wassermann were never all in the same pen until September call-ups. If any of them are in the pen next year (and I doubt they will be), it will only be one of them and they will be the last slot. We have four good guys in Jenks, Linebrink, Dotel, and Thornton, which is more than a lot of teams can say. And if we consistently get 6 or 7 innings from our starters, we will be fine.

BTW, what killed us in the postseason? Was it really our bullpen? Or was it the inability to drive in runs in key situations? And you want to keep this same offense, and look at the bullpen? I don't even think the problem is necessarily that they're 'slow and plodding', but that they can't make contact. Our focus needs to be on the offense, not the bullpen.



No, but most of the fundamentals will not be there due to the lack of quality training. Range was never a problem with Alexei this year, which can't be taught...his problems were more fundamental. And he improved a hell of a lot as the season went on.


We have invested, although I am not sure if it was wisely. Linebrink when healthy was great but with how much time he missed you could say he at best earned his money. Dotel and his Jekyll and Hyde routine probably weren't worth his what 5.5 mil or whatever. I like the idea of Cruz, not sure about Affeldt. He was terrible in KC for a long time, then he goes the NL and pitches poorly, then he has 2 strong years in a row for Colorado and Cincy, 2 tough parks to pitch in. I think the kicker for me is we can't have 3 lefties in the bullpen. Thornton is there, and I pray we don't do something stupid like think Richard is a starter, because if we keep him in the Long Relief/ Tough Lefty Role, the kid will be a superstar. As a starter, he will be, well, just mediocre.

So for me, We for sure have 5/7 of our bullpen in Richard-Thornton-Linebrink-Dotel-Jenks. You have your 2 8th inning guys there in Linebrink and Thornton, your 7th in Dotel (but you could do better), and your long reliever. So really you need 2 RHP MR, or the slight possibility of 1 righty 1 lefty. 1 will become the 7th man last option, and the other will need to be able to pitch in the 7th on nights Dotel can't pitch or gets hit.

In terms of what killed us in the playoffs, I am not excusing the offense, but in the playoffs, it is no joke it begins and ends with Starting Pitching and only 1 of our Starters got it done. Vazquez laid a HUGE egg, Buehrle, he did not pitch bad, but being paid like an ace, knowing we need a win on the road, he has to hold that lead, and he didn't. At the end of the day he had a "MEH" game, he didn't get shelled, but we gave him a lead and he gave it up. Danks pitched great again, giving up 2 of his ER in garbage time when it did not touch our lead, and Gavin looked life Javy out there. I wonder if Buehrle was right about him. He always seemed like a nervous guy, a guy who lets his lack of confidence catch up with him, and that never translates to the playoffs (see Javy). He threw a good game against the Tigers to get in, so only time will tell.

We need to add some speed to the offense, and I hope people don't think that speed comes from Orlando Hudson. He isn't fast. He is a smart base runner, but he is worse at stealing bases then Orlando was, and only average on the base paths. We need a couple guys who can fly, a guy with Carl Crawford like speed that can turn a double into a triple to start an inning steal bases, etc. Im not saying get Crawford, but Im saying Hudson isn't the answer.

Still say our biggest need this offseason is a number 1 SP. A guy who is, without a doubt, going to deliver a win in the playoffs. A guy who if your offense gives you a 2-1 lead knows he can't give it up. In 2005 that man was Freddy Garcia, who in game 4 of the world series, clearly did not dominate like Backe was, but refused to give up a run, and got us the win. We need a leader in the rotation. Danks one day will be that man but its too soon to put on his shoulders. I couldn't tell you who is and isn't available who fits that description, but if you could get a true Ace SP, put Danks 2, Burls 3, Floyd 4 Javy 5, it would be the best rotation in the AL. The problem is, Burls 1 Danks 2 Floyd 3 Javy 4, its good, but it won't get it done.

guillensdisciple
10-15-2008, 09:10 AM
As crappy as Carrasco was the month of August and September, I still see some potential in him for the long term. I would give him one more year in the sox pen and see how he pans out. I believe he has good stuff for a long reliever.

palehozenychicty
10-15-2008, 09:19 AM
We haven't invested in the bullpen? Why were Linebrink and Dotel in Sox uniforms then? :scratch:

The problem was not so much the guys you listed, but that we had to go to them. When our starting pitching couldn't get out of the fourth inning, we had no choice but to use those guys.

The bullpen is not as bad as you make it seem. Ramirez, MacDougal, Logan, and Wassermann were never all in the same pen until September call-ups. If any of them are in the pen next year (and I doubt they will be), it will only be one of them and they will be the last slot. We have four good guys in Jenks, Linebrink, Dotel, and Thornton, which is more than a lot of teams can say. And if we consistently get 6 or 7 innings from our starters, we will be fine.

BTW, what killed us in the postseason? Was it really our bullpen? Or was it the inability to drive in runs in key situations? And you want to keep this same offense, and look at the bullpen? I don't even think the problem is necessarily that they're 'slow and plodding', but that they can't make contact. Our focus needs to be on the offense, not the bullpen.



No, but most of the fundamentals will not be there due to the lack of quality training. Range was never a problem with Alexei this year, which can't be taught...his problems were more fundamental. And he improved a hell of a lot as the season went on.


These traits tend to go hand in hand. Guys who make contact are more often athletic and versatile. A couple of them would not hurt this club.
I also think that, overall, the pen is good enough to survive a season. The middle innings can be used for young guys that throw strikes.

JorgeFabregas
10-15-2008, 09:25 AM
It's difficult to fix a bullpen by throwing money at it.

thedudeabides
10-15-2008, 09:47 AM
When the original poster started a thread about a spending spree like major league baseball has never seen for a bullpen; I am pretty sure he didn't want another Chone Figgins/Orlando Hudson thread.

KW spent pretty much uprescedented money on middle releivers last offseason. I think he was the early bird in this sense: it is only going to get worse.

Do I think there is another 3YR/10Million middle relief contract coming? No. Especially considering the risk, KW got pretty lucky with Dotel and Linebrink both being healthy and effective; if you remember this was not a given when they inked up with the Sox. Linebrink was coming off a terrible second half and Dotel had arm issues.

Would I like to see Fuentes or Cruz on the southside next year? Absolutely, it is not my money; but if I was working with even a loose leash around my neck, I would say the only bullpen money that gets spent this year is Bobby's raise.

After your go-to guys (which we have), you need to catch lightning in a bottle with your 4-7 options.

I guess I missed Linebrink being healthy and Dotel being effective the last two months of the season. :scratch:

soxtalker
10-15-2008, 10:40 AM
It's difficult to fix a bullpen by throwing money at it.

I've been following this thread since the beginning, trying to figure out how to articulate what bothered me about the initial suggestion. You've come closest, though I think it is a bit more nuanced.

When we have a hole in our team, the normal reaction is to pick out a player or two who have done well on other teams. They are the "sure bets". They also are the hardest to pry loose (if under contract), cost the most (if free agents), and carry the most risk of us "buying high". When I think about the good acquisitions by KW in the past few years, the ones that stand out to me are the ones we didn't know about -- Jenks, Thornton, Ramirez, etc.

Now, I'm not trying to be too critical on this. Most of us fans know very little about the lesser players or minor league systems of the other teams. I guess, though, that I'd rather KW not break the bank, but, rather, I look forward to see some more "under the radar" acquisitions.

whitesox901
10-15-2008, 10:46 AM
Why not Scott Schoenweis? Hes a F/A

STATS: 3.34 ERA, 2-6, 34 K's

on the Downside, looking at his stats, he's had some rough seasons and he's getting old

kittle42
10-15-2008, 10:47 AM
Why not Scott Schoenweis? Hes a F/A

STATS: 3.34 ERA, 2-6, 34 K's

on the Downside, looking at his stats, he's had some rough seasons and he's getting old

That would be a complete disaster.

hi im skot
10-15-2008, 10:48 AM
Figgins, Hudson, Quentin, Thome, Dye, AJ, Alexei, Swisher, BA



Big problem---- Hudson is a below average 2nd baseman defensively. Alexi was a below average 2nd baseman defensively. So put them together and you have a poor defensive infield. So improving the bullpen would be negated by a pourous infield.

And this is where I stopped reading.

kitekrazy
10-15-2008, 10:50 AM
It's difficult to fix a bullpen by throwing money at it.

I don't think good bullpens exist on a consistent basis. They can be good one year and bad the next.

chisoxmike
10-15-2008, 11:01 AM
Why not Scott Schoenweis? Hes a F/A

STATS: 3.34 ERA, 2-6, 34 K's

on the Downside, looking at his stats, he's had some rough seasons and he's getting old

We've done that already, it was bad. If we go there again, it would be worse. He sucks. Plain and simple.

Ranger
10-15-2008, 11:12 AM
And this is where I stopped reading.

Then you missed this nugget from some other guy:

"Alexei was garbage at 2b, I know people see a few web gems and get tight in the pants. But Alexei's glove is pretty crappy at 2b."

Domeshot17
10-15-2008, 11:18 AM
I dont think TCM's glove was the problem at 2b, I think it was the mental aspect of the game. I think the long season wore on him, and he had mental defensive lapses. He was no where near a butcher, and he was akin to the highlight real plays, but we had plenty of moments where he would forget to cover 2b on players, be late getting over, unsure of the number of outs, things of that nature. That said, those ARE rookie mistakes, and as long as he continues to grow they are fine.

I wouldn't rule out him staying at 2b. There is a SS who fills a lot of our holes on the FA market this year named Furcal. If we can sign him, I think a middle IF of him and Alexei is much more solid and what we need then Alexei and O-Dawg

jabrch
10-15-2008, 11:29 AM
We need to make every effort possible to get this bullpen in a total lock down mode. IMO,

It was, until we had a lot of injuries


I would be more than willing to trim in other areas to put a bullpen like this together. I would rather go into next season with total question marks at 3B, 2B, and CF than go into next season with any one of Ramirez, Logan, MacDougal, or Wasserman ever pitching the ball again.

I'd be shocked if none of those guys are in the pen. We can't overreact to a few bad months due to injuries and people out of position by signing two more relievers to big contracts while we have issues with a 5th starter and 3 position players.

jabrch
10-15-2008, 11:32 AM
I know I'm a broken record, but if you can trade Paulie to the Angels for Figgins, you've ...

...made your team WORSE. And now you have Figgins getting his 3rd arbitration year, and then leaving for FA the next year.

If this team trades Konerko for Figgins, I'll really be pissed. And it takes a lot to get me mad. I'm sure Kenny isn't going to do that. It would be a dumb trade.

jabrch
10-15-2008, 11:33 AM
Alexi was a below average 2nd baseman defensively.

Based on what? For a 2B he has above average range, a +++ arm and a average to above average hands/feet.

I don't know how you can say he was a below average 2B defensively.

Nellie_Fox
10-15-2008, 11:53 AM
Based on what? For a 2B he has above average range, a +++ arm and a average to above average hands/feet.

I don't know how you can say he was a below average 2B defensively.He doesn't even know the guy's name; how reliable is his judgment on Alexei's ability?

WhiteSox5187
10-15-2008, 11:58 AM
It was, until we had a lot of injuries




I'd be shocked if none of those guys are in the pen. We can't overreact to a few bad months due to injuries and people out of position by signing two more relievers to big contracts while we have issues with a 5th starter and 3 position players.
Linebrink has had this "dead arm" period for two years now in the second half and Dotel's arm could fall off at any minute...the bullpen is still a bit suspect. I really don't think you can count on Dotel and Linebrink coming in and being BOTH lights out and healthy all year long.

Tragg
10-15-2008, 12:06 PM
The Sox have invested a lot in the bullpen. They've signed FAs, traded young prospects for career middle relievers....a lot of resources have been put there.
What they've missed is the young pitchers that they develop themselves going into the pen to either become starters later or career relievers. Logan is that category, but he hasn't put it together (but he has talent, imo). They used Richard to that end in the playoffs and not suprisingly, he got a lot of work because he's just more talented than most career middle relievers.

hi im skot
10-15-2008, 12:25 PM
Then you missed this nugget from some other guy:

"Alexei was garbage at 2b, I know people see a few web gems and get tight in the pants. But Alexei's glove is pretty crappy at 2b."

Who are these morons?

Sox4ever77
10-15-2008, 12:56 PM
I don't think good bullpens exist on a consistent basis. They can be good one year and bad the next.

Generally you're right. But somehow the Dodgers have had a good bullpen, year in and year out, even after losing Gagne.

Mohoney
10-15-2008, 02:06 PM
We can't overreact to a few bad months due to injuries and people out of position by signing two more relievers to big contracts while we have issues with a 5th starter and 3 position players.

Would $4 or $5 million per season really be that big a contract? I think Williams earned the right to spend on bullpen guys, after Linebrink and Dotel succeeded the way they did. With another signing or two along those lines, the bullpen would be among the elite in baseball even if it sustained a few injuries.

I don't think it's overreaction to say that at least one injury will pop up in the bullpen over the course of a year, and I don't think that, right now, we have enough arms to be prepared for that.

jabrch
10-15-2008, 02:24 PM
Would $4 or $5 million per season really be that big a contract? I think Williams earned the right to spend on bullpen guys, after Linebrink and Dotel succeeded the way they did. With another signing or two along those lines, the bullpen would be among the elite in baseball even if it sustained a few injuries.

I don't think it's overreaction to say that at least one injury will pop up in the bullpen over the course of a year, and I don't think that, right now, we have enough arms to be prepared for that.

Depends on what else can be done with that 5mm.

Konerko05
10-15-2008, 02:40 PM
Depends on what else can be done with that 5mm.

Are you implying we should shoot the worst reliever?

Lip Man 1
10-15-2008, 03:10 PM
Sox4ever:

Along with the Angels and until this season the Twins.

Lip

WhiteSox5187
10-15-2008, 04:51 PM
Then you missed this nugget from some other guy:

"Alexei was garbage at 2b, I know people see a few web gems and get tight in the pants. But Alexei's glove is pretty crappy at 2b."
If we want to be technical, Alexei does wear what is usually a shortstop's glove at second, maybe he was refering to that? :redneck

Sox4ever77
10-15-2008, 06:41 PM
I know everybody is going to say What about Shingo? but KW could look into bringing over relievers from Japan. Most come cheap and others, besides Shingo, have had good long term success here in the US. Hell after going through the 08 season, I would take somebody who had half the success that Shingo had in 04.

Rdy2PlayBall
10-15-2008, 06:53 PM
Jenks
Thornton
Dotel
Linebrink
Corrassco
*sigh* MacDougal
Arn't that bad... the will probably be able to help next year. I see no need to replace them. Wasserman was what, a rookie? You can't expect him to be the best pitcher out there, he will probably be a lot better next year. :rolleyes: I just hope so, don't yell at me because I hope that he will.

But true... we do need bullpen work... but it worked PERFECTLY the first half of the season, I am sure Kenny will find out what went wrong, but I don't think it will take that much to fix the bullpen. I think the offence is what we should be worring about. :tongue:

turners56
10-15-2008, 06:57 PM
What the hell are you talking about, Hudson is yearly one of the top 2b in +/- and zone ratings. He's one of the best 2b gloves in the league.



Alexei was garbage at 2b, I know people see a few web gems and get tight in the pants. But Alexei's glove is pretty crappy at 2b.

Garbage? I wouldn't say that. He wasn't great, but he wasn't garbage. A bit below average is a better way to put it.

turners56
10-15-2008, 06:58 PM
Signing semi-unproven relievers who had a good year like Affeldt and Ohman are big gambles. Relievers may have one good year and suck the next. It's not a mystery. It happens a lot in baseball.

turners56
10-15-2008, 07:01 PM
He doesn't even know the guy's name; how reliable is his judgment on Alexei's ability?

Sabermetricians like to think that they can measure defense to the fullest extent. Unfortunately, Sabermats didn't like Alexei so they're saying he sucks at second.

kittle42
10-15-2008, 07:41 PM
Signing semi-unproven relievers who had a good year like Affeldt and Ohman are big gambles. Relievers may have one good year and suck the next. It's not a mystery. It happens a lot in baseball.

See Chicago White Sox, 2006.

turners56
10-15-2008, 08:16 PM
See Chicago White Sox, 2006.

Cotts was actually good for half a season and then turned to crap in the second half. Politte was never the same in 06. Thornton was a similar story in 06 and 07. Matt had a real good 06 and a pretty bad 07. I wouldn't be surprised if he drops off next year.

Lefty34
10-15-2008, 08:35 PM
Sabermetricians like to think that they can measure defense to the fullest extent. Unfortunately, Sabermats didn't like Alexei so they're saying he sucks at second.

Blanketing statements like that are as ignorant as they are wrong. Sabermaticians not only don't think that they can measure every facet of defense; in fact, most of them will tell you that defensive statistics are not perfect. However, while they are not perfect, they are a better, more unbiased measure than listening to a person who says "this guy makes great plays at the position all the time," when in reality they haven't seen every play made by the player at that position, and are only remembering a few good ones. Think before you open your mouth.

turners56
10-15-2008, 08:41 PM
Blanketing statements like that are as ignorant as they are wrong. Sabermaticians not only don't think that they can measure every facet of defense; in fact, most of them will tell you that defensive statistics are not perfect. However, while they are not perfect, they are a better, more unbiased measure than listening to a person who says "this guy makes great plays at the position all the time," when in reality they haven't seen every play made by the player at that position, and are only remembering a few good ones. Think before you open your mouth.

Geez, I was just joking around.

Lefty34
10-15-2008, 08:45 PM
Geez, I was just joking around.

Then teal it or put a very sarcastic spin on it, and save people a lot of time by not turning it into a stats v. non-stats war about the defensive abilities of Ramirez. Even if it was an inadvertent turn.

Domeshot17
10-15-2008, 10:17 PM
Geez, I was just joking around.

the problem is there is no stat to measure the mental aspect of the game, which is probably more important than any stat out there.

Craig Grebeck
10-15-2008, 10:35 PM
the problem is there is no stat to measure the mental aspect of the game, which is probably more important than any stat out there.
Wait, what?

Domeshot17
10-15-2008, 11:14 PM
Wait, what?

What I meant is in this case, it wasn't range factor or even as simple as errors as Alexei's problem. It was the mental part of the game. When to cover, where to be on plays, how many outs, positioning in situations etc. He wasn't bad in the field like Josh Fields was, it was a much different monster.

turners56
10-16-2008, 10:23 AM
Then teal it or put a very sarcastic spin on it, and save people a lot of time by not turning it into a stats v. non-stats war about the defensive abilities of Ramirez. Even if it was an inadvertent turn.

Oh come on, did you not see my sarcasm when I said that "Sabermats didn't like Alexei so they say he sucks"? Some people are sarcasm-blind.

kittle42
10-16-2008, 10:25 AM
Oh come on, did you not see my sarcasm when I said that "Sabermats didn't like Alexei so they say he sucks"? Some people are sarcasm-blind.

They really are. I hate using teal, but sometimes you just have to, lest the take everything seriously crowd become confused.

Lefty34
10-16-2008, 12:14 PM
Oh come on, did you not see my sarcasm when I said that "Sabermats didn't like Alexei so they say he sucks"? Some people are sarcasm-blind.

People on this board have said way more sarcastic-sounding things about stat-heads and meant them wholeheartedly.

SCCWS
10-16-2008, 05:10 PM
:?: What games were you watching? The guy made some incredible plays and at the very least was average. Get a clue. :rolleyes:

9 AL second basemen played over 1,000 innings in 2008. Alexei finished 8th out of 9 in fielding % and 6th out of 9 in range. To compare some more, he made 11 errors in 1,000 innings. Richar/Iguchi combined in 2007 to make 9 errors in 1,200 innings. Alexei had a better range factor than Richar but not as good as Iguchi in those seasons. Sorry, that makes Alexei below average so far in his career.

Hellfire wrote: What the hell are you talking about, Hudson is yearly one of the top 2b in +/- and zone ratings. He's one of the best 2b gloves in the league.

Well your gold glove candidate finished about the same as Alexei with a .982. in only 900 innings But when he played a full season in 2007 he was 7 out of 12 in fielding %. The great range you saw must have been 1 game because he finished this year with a worse range factor than Alexei and obviously Iguchi. But better than Richar.

Not a solid middle infield combo.

doublem23
10-16-2008, 05:20 PM
As little as some people like to hear it, bullpen success is a lot of time just catching lightning in a bottle. Look at the '05 team, they had a FANTASTIC bullpen, but for many of them, it was their career years all colliding at the same time. To spend resources on something so volatile is to waste them. I'm not saying we shouldn't try to improve our bullpen arms at all, but there are more critical aspects of the game that the Sox should pay more attention to, IMO.

Lefty34
10-16-2008, 05:24 PM
Well your gold glove candidate finished about the same as Alexei with a .982. in only 900 innings But when he played a full season in 2007 he was 7 out of 12 in fielding %. The great range you saw must have been 1 game because he finished this year with a worse range factor than Alexei and obviously Iguchi. But better than Richar.

Not a solid middle infield combo.


Hopefully people know that there are better fielding metrics than Fielding %.

Hudson, when he last played a full season at 2B, finished 3rd in the NL in Zone Rating with .817, while Ramirez finished 6th this season in the AL in that same metric (with the same rating, too). So if Ramirez puts up the same ZR next year at SS, and the AL SS's don't get that much better, we will have a middle IF that is 6th in the AL. Good or bad? I don't know, but their offensive numbers might more than make up for their defensive shortcomings, whatever those may be.