PDA

View Full Version : Manny might be the greatest player ever to walk this earth.


BadBobbyJenks
10-13-2008, 10:00 PM
Dude is locked in and it is just scary.

Sockinchisox
10-13-2008, 10:06 PM
He's very good in the postseason, no doubt.

But the greatest player ever he is not even close.

Hendu
10-13-2008, 10:33 PM
I don't think it's too much of a stretch to say that he's one of the best hitters to ever play the game. Too bad about the crap defense and mental issues. But the guy is fun to watch as long as he's not playing against us, or for a team that I hate (Boston).

SOXPHILE
10-13-2008, 10:34 PM
He can swing the bat, no doubt. One of the most feared at the plate. He's a butcher in the outfield though. Now, if one was to say he might be one of the biggest scumbag asswipes to walk the earth, then you might have something going....

GoGoCrede
10-13-2008, 10:36 PM
He can swing the bat, no doubt. One of the most feared at the plate. He's a butcher in the outfield though. Now, if one was to say he might be one of the biggest scumbag asswipes to walk the earth, then you might have something going....

I dunno, quite a few MLB players might give him a run for his money on that one.

BadBobbyJenks
10-13-2008, 10:46 PM
He can swing the bat, no doubt. One of the most feared at the plate. He's a butcher in the outfield though. Now, if one was to say he might be one of the biggest scumbag asswipes to walk the earth, then you might have something going....

Biggest scumbag asswipes in the game? How so?

I stand by the thread title, the clutchiest of all the clutchest hitters ever.

SOXPHILE
10-13-2008, 11:07 PM
Biggest scumbag asswipes in the game? How so?

I stand by the thread title, the clutchiest of all the clutchest hitters ever.

Maybe not the biggest, but he's up there. Just to name a few:

-Shoving a Red Sox employee down because they didn't get game tickets for some of "his people"

-faking a knee injury, and basically quiting on the Red Sox this year. (He was almost walking to first base during a ground out at one point) When asked what was wrong, he said he had hurt his left knee. Then the next day, he forgot which knee it was, and said it was the right knee.

-various stupid antics in the outfield, that at the time, the people in Boston just excused as "Manny being Manny".

RadioheadRocks
10-13-2008, 11:09 PM
Maybe not the biggest, but he's up there. Just to name a few:

-Shoving a Red Sox employee down because they didn't get game tickets for some of "his people"

-faking a knee injury, and basically quiting on the Red Sox this year. (He was almost walking to first base during a ground out at one point) When asked what was wrong, he said he had hurt his left knee. Then the next day, he forgot which knee it was, and said it was the right knee.

-various stupid antics in the outfield, that at the time, the people in Boston just excused as "Manny being Manny".


No more calls, we have a winner!

BadBobbyJenks
10-13-2008, 11:36 PM
Maybe not the biggest, but he's up there. Just to name a few:

-Shoving a Red Sox employee down because they didn't get game tickets for some of "his people"

-faking a knee injury, and basically quiting on the Red Sox this year. (He was almost walking to first base during a ground out at one point) When asked what was wrong, he said he had hurt his left knee. Then the next day, he forgot which knee it was, and said it was the right knee.

-various stupid antics in the outfield, that at the time, the people in Boston just excused as "Manny being Manny".

Well the third one makes him neither a scumbag nor an asswipe, just a goofball.

And he and the Red Sox had a falling out, not the first time this has happened in sports.

hi im skot
10-13-2008, 11:39 PM
I love Manny.

:shrug:

BadBobbyJenks
10-13-2008, 11:45 PM
I love Manny.

:shrug:

I could not have said it better myself.

RadioheadRocks
10-13-2008, 11:47 PM
I cheered for Manny for the first time in my life during the NLDS. I'm done cheering for him now; the Manny fans can have him.

Parrothead
10-13-2008, 11:50 PM
Maybe not the biggest, but he's up there. Just to name a few:

-Shoving a Red Sox employee down because they didn't get game tickets for some of "his people"

-faking a knee injury, and basically quiting on the Red Sox this year. (He was almost walking to first base during a ground out at one point) When asked what was wrong, he said he had hurt his left knee. Then the next day, he forgot which knee it was, and said it was the right knee.

-various stupid antics in the outfield, that at the time, the people in Boston just excused as "Manny being Manny".

Agreed. Manny is almost in the Gary Sheffield area of jerkdom.

GoGoCrede
10-13-2008, 11:51 PM
I cheered for Manny for the first time in my life during the NLDS. I'm done cheering for him now; the Manny fans can have him.

Amen. And keep him in the NL, too. :cool:

Sox4ever77
10-14-2008, 12:48 AM
He's doing this to get a new contract. Once he does that, he'll become the ******* being an *******, crap. I hate the Red Sox for putting up with that **** for so long.

Nellie_Fox
10-14-2008, 12:49 AM
... he and the Red Sox had a falling out, not the first time this has happened in sports.Seriously? A guy getting paid $20M per year simply decides he doesn't want his team to pick up the option in a contract he signed so that he can become a free agent, so he simply quits on the team while continuning to accept said $20M per year paychecks, and to you that's a falling out? And one that's mutual?

I call it breach of contract and unlawfully withholding services, but enjoy your hero worship.

BadBobbyJenks
10-14-2008, 02:30 AM
Seriously? A guy getting paid $20M per year simply decides he doesn't want his team to pick up the option in a contract he signed so that he can become a free agent, so he simply quits on the team while continuning to accept said $20M per year paychecks, and to you that's a falling out? And one that's mutual?

I call it breach of contract and unlawfully withholding services, but enjoy your hero worship.

What was it when Theo quit on the Red Sox?

Moses_Scurry
10-14-2008, 08:31 AM
John Rocker
Brett Myers
Wil Cordero
Sammy Sosa
Ty Cobb
Pete Rose
Jose Canseco
Rafael Palmeiro
Albert Belle
David Wells

I'd say Manny has a looooooong way to go before he can be crowned the biggest asswipe scumbag in baseball. I would be happy with him if he helps win games. I'd have a much easier time cheering for him than those listed above.

hellview
10-14-2008, 10:13 AM
He can swing the bat, no doubt. One of the most feared at the plate. He's a butcher in the outfield though. Now, if one was to say he might be one of the biggest scumbag asswipes to walk the earth, then you might have something going....

I know, forget Brett Meyers who beats his wife...Manny is the worst.

Eddo144
10-14-2008, 10:24 AM
Is Manny a model employee? No.
Is he a good outfielder? When he wants to be.
Is he a good teammate off the field? By all accounts, yes.

Is he one of the seven best right-handed hitters of all time? Most definitely. You can really only make a case that a subset of Hornsby, Mays, Aaron, Thomas, Rodriguez, and Pujols are/were better.

SOXPHILE
10-14-2008, 10:26 AM
I know, forget Brett Meyers who beats his wife...Manny is the worst.


I've made my opinions on Brett Myers known. Brett Myers beats the wife, Manny shoves down a front office employee. They're both in the team photo.

DSpivack
10-14-2008, 11:31 AM
Is Manny a model employee? No.
Is he a good outfielder? When he wants to be.
Is he a good teammate off the field? By all accounts, yes.

Is he one of the seven best right-handed hitters of all time? Most definitely. You can really only make a case that a subset of Hornsby, Mays, Aaron, Thomas, Rodriguez, and Pujols are/were better.

I'm not really sure how you make a case that Frank Thomas was a better hitter than Manny.

Nellie_Fox
10-14-2008, 11:44 AM
What was it when Theo quit on the Red Sox?What does that have to do with Manny? Absolutely nothing.

Paulwny
10-14-2008, 11:46 AM
When the game is on the line Manny is the man.
I've never seen anyone hit in some many clutch situations when his mind is on the game. I once considered Tony Gwynn as the best in clutch, but Manny is far superior.
Again, the key is, when his mind is on the game.

CashMan
10-14-2008, 11:51 AM
What was it when Theo quit on the Red Sox?

I don't think he quit, didn't he let his contract expire, or he took a break? He, "quit" on them for like 4 months, because he wanted to build more through the minor leagues, rather than pay people like the Yanks. I think it worked out better for him and Sawks, then Manny quitting on a team just to get more money. Win-Win>Win-Loss

Eddo144
10-14-2008, 12:12 PM
I'm not really sure how you make a case that Frank Thomas was a better hitter than Manny.
If you consider peak performance, you definitely can. For the first ten years of his career, Thomas was only comparable to Ruth, Gehrig, and Ted Williams. His career slash line is still .301/.419/.555, and that's including his current decline phase. Manny's is .314/.411/.593, and he has yet to enter his decline phase.

Furthermore, according to baseball-reference.com, Frank Thomas is the third most similar batter to Manny overall, fifth most similar through age 35. He was the most similar batter to Manny through ages 28, 30, and 31. (Manny is also the third most similar batter to Frank overall and most similar through age 30.)

So at the very least, Frank is very comparable to Manny. Is he better? Maybe not. But the case is there.

CashMan
10-14-2008, 12:19 PM
If you consider peak performance, you definitely can. For the first ten years of his career, Thomas was only comparable to Ruth, Gehrig, and Ted Williams. His career slash line is still .301/.419/.555, and that's including his current decline phase. Manny's is .314/.411/.593, and he has yet to enter his decline phase.

Furthermore, according to baseball-reference.com, Frank Thomas is the third most similar batter to Manny overall, fifth most similar through age 35. He was the most similar batter to Manny through ages 28, 30, and 31. (Manny is also the third most similar batter to Frank overall and most similar through age 30.)

So at the very least, Frank is very comparable to Manny. Is he better? Maybe not. But the case is there.

Other than Belle for a few years, who did Frank have protecting him?

Hendu
10-14-2008, 12:29 PM
If you consider peak performance, you definitely can. For the first ten years of his career, Thomas was only comparable to Ruth, Gehrig, and Ted Williams. His career slash line is still .301/.419/.555, and that's including his current decline phase. Manny's is .314/.411/.593, and he has yet to enter his decline phase.

Furthermore, according to baseball-reference.com, Frank Thomas is the third most similar batter to Manny overall, fifth most similar through age 35. He was the most similar batter to Manny through ages 28, 30, and 31. (Manny is also the third most similar batter to Frank overall and most similar through age 30.)

So at the very least, Frank is very comparable to Manny. Is he better? Maybe not. But the case is there.

Both of them should be first ballot hall of famers. There were few hitters throughout the pre-roid 90s that were more feared than the Big Hurt.

Eddo144
10-14-2008, 12:29 PM
Other than Belle for a few years, who did Frank have protecting him?
Other than Ortiz for a few years, who did Manny have protecting him?

And lineup protection is still overrated. It may lead to more walks, but OBP is included in the numbers I gave.

CashMan
10-14-2008, 12:31 PM
Other than Ortiz for a few years, who did Manny have protecting him?

And lineup protection is still overrated. It may lead to more walks, but OBP is included in the numbers I gave.


Is this a joke? Where did Manny play before the Sawks?

jdm2662
10-14-2008, 12:41 PM
Other than Ortiz for a few years, who did Manny have protecting him?

And lineup protection is still overrated. It may lead to more walks, but OBP is included in the numbers I gave.

You need to look at those Cleveland teams Manny played on. There was more than enough protection.

guillen4life13
10-14-2008, 12:57 PM
Other than Ortiz for a few years, who did Manny have protecting him?

And lineup protection is still overrated. It may lead to more walks, but OBP is included in the numbers I gave.

http://www.baseball-reference.com/teams/CLE/1999.shtml
http://www.baseball-reference.com/teams/CLE/1996.shtml

Ponder that for a second.

Frank had Ventura and Maggs as his primary protection over his Sox career. Belle showed up for a while.

Looking at those lineups makes me realize just how good Kenny Lofton was.

Eddo144
10-14-2008, 01:02 PM
http://www.baseball-reference.com/teams/CLE/1999.shtml
http://www.baseball-reference.com/teams/CLE/1996.shtml

Ponder that for a second.

Frank had Ventura and Maggs as his primary protection over his Sox career. Belle showed up for a while.

Looking at those lineups makes me realize just how good Kenny Lofton was.
I stand corrected. My post, in defense of Frank, was somehow twisted into defending Manny. Thanks guys.

Sox4ever77
10-14-2008, 01:14 PM
Other than Ortiz for a few years, who did Manny have protecting him?

And lineup protection is still overrated. It may lead to more walks, but OBP is included in the numbers I gave.

Didn't Thome play with Manny? Nomar for the first couple years in Boston? Or is that not protection?

CashMan
10-14-2008, 01:54 PM
Didn't Thome play with Manny? Nomar for the first couple years in Boston? Or is that not protection?


NOMAR is NOMORE

Nomar, was hitting like .320 around then, wasn't he?

Paulwny
10-14-2008, 03:29 PM
Since the beginning of baseball, anyone who bats 2nd, 3rd or 4th has always had insurance behind them. Your biggest hr and rbi batters hit in the 3rd, 4th and 5th positions.

CashMan
10-14-2008, 03:56 PM
Since the beginning of baseball, anyone who bats 2nd, 3rd or 4th has always had insurance behind them. Your biggest hr and rbi batters hit in the 3rd, 4th and 5th positions.


Name me the 2 4 5 hitters when Vlad was in Montreal.

FedEx227
10-14-2008, 04:00 PM
Name me the 2 4 5 hitters when Vlad was in Montreal.

2000:

2- Jose Vidro/Orlando Cabrera
3- Rondell White
4- Vlad
5- Lee Stevens

CashMan
10-14-2008, 04:03 PM
2000:

2- Jose Vidro/Orlando Cabrera
3- Rondell White
4- Vlad
5- Lee Stevens


I'll give you the #2 hitters, White and Stevens do not scare me.

FedEx227
10-14-2008, 04:06 PM
I'll give you the #2 hitters, White and Stevens do not scare me.

Rondell wasn't bad that year at all, or through most of his career.

In just 75 games with the Expos that year he had 11 HR, 57 RBI with a line of .307/.370/.503. That's pretty solid considering his career numbers were .284/.336/.462.

CashMan
10-14-2008, 04:10 PM
Rondell wasn't bad that year at all, or through most of his career.

In just 75 games with the Expos that year he had 11 HR, 57 RBI with a line of .307/.370/.503. That's pretty solid considering his career numbers were .284/.336/.462.


That is IF he could stay healthy.

chisoxfanatic
10-14-2008, 04:10 PM
He's very good in the postseason, no doubt.

But the greatest player ever he is not even close.
No kidding. He isn't even the best player in baseball right now. That title goes to Albert Pujols.

gobears1987
10-14-2008, 04:43 PM
No more calls, we have a winner!
He also quit on his team in 2006.

gobears1987
10-14-2008, 04:44 PM
No kidding. He isn't even the best player in baseball right now. That title goes to Albert Pujols.
He isn't even the best LF in baseball right now. That title can go to TCQ.

Blueprint1
10-14-2008, 04:48 PM
Other than Ortiz for a few years, who did Manny have protecting him?

And lineup protection is still overrated. It may lead to more walks, but OBP is included in the numbers I gave.

That Cleveland team was stacked. One of the best hitting teams I have ever seen.

gobears1987
10-14-2008, 05:00 PM
Other than Ortiz for a few years, who did Manny have protecting him?


Have you ever heard of a hitter named Jim Thome? Manny had great protection with Mr. Incredible.

Eddo144
10-14-2008, 05:04 PM
He isn't even the best LF in baseball right now. That title can go to TCQ.
Let's let TCQ put together multiple MVP-caliber seasons before we anoint him, OK? It's a tad Cub-fan-ish.

And people, please stop quoting my post about Ramirez having no protection in Cleveland. I get it. I was wrong. I don't need to be told six times. :redface:

BadBobbyJenks
10-14-2008, 05:15 PM
What does that have to do with Manny? Absolutely nothing.

What does this bull**** about him being a scumbag have anything to do with why the thread was started???????? Oh wait absolutely nothing.

Hendu
10-14-2008, 05:15 PM
I don't think that protection is that big of a deal...a great hitter is going to put up great numbers no matter who's hitting around him. Maybe not as many RBI opportunities and more walks, but the OPS should be up there regardless.

Manny has been on a tear since being traded, with Jeff Kent hitting behind him.

areilly
10-14-2008, 05:18 PM
Seriously? A guy getting paid $20M per year simply decides he doesn't want his team to pick up the option in a contract he signed so that he can become a free agent, so he simply quits on the team while continuning to accept said $20M per year paychecks, and to you that's a falling out? And one that's mutual?

I call it breach of contract and unlawfully withholding services, but enjoy your hero worship.

Simmons just had a great piece on this - and mind you, I say this as a fan of neither Ramirez nor of Simmons.

http://sports.espn.go.com/espn/eticket/story?page=manny

Paulwny
10-14-2008, 05:35 PM
Name me the 2 4 5 hitters when Vlad was in Montreal.


It doesn't matter, these hitters were better than the 6,7,8,9 hitters. The protection given Vlad was the best Montreal had.

doublem23
10-14-2008, 06:01 PM
What a ridiculous thread full of hyperbole and overexaggeration. Manny is a great hitter; maybe the best in the N.L. right now. What did he hit, .397 over 2 months? But he's a mediocre fielder at the least important defensive position in the game? Best player ever? No way. Best player playing now? A-Rod. Best hitter still playing? Maybe.

He's a great player. That 1-2 punch with Ortiz might have been the best ever in baseball history when they were both on...

DSpivack
10-14-2008, 06:54 PM
What a ridiculous thread full of hyperbole and overexaggeration. Manny is a great hitter; maybe the best in the N.L. right now. What did he hit, .397 over 2 months? But he's a mediocre fielder at the least important defensive position in the game? Best player ever? No way. Best player playing now? A-Rod. Best hitter still playing? Maybe.

He's a great player. That 1-2 punch with Ortiz might have been the best ever in baseball history when they were both on...

I think that's hyperbole and overexaggeration. :tongue:

Gehrig & Ruth should have that pretty well locked down.

PKalltheway
10-14-2008, 07:13 PM
I think that's hyperbole and overexaggeration. :tongue:

Gehrig & Ruth should have that pretty well locked down.
Yup. Mays and McCovey in the 1960's are a solid #2 behind them.

eastchicagosoxfan
10-14-2008, 07:49 PM
What a ridiculous thread full of hyperbole and overexaggeration. Manny is a great hitter; maybe the best in the N.L. right now. What did he hit, .397 over 2 months? But he's a mediocre fielder at the least important defensive position in the game? Best player ever? No way. Best player playing now? A-Rod. Best hitter still playing? Maybe.

He's a great player. That 1-2 punch with Ortiz might have been the best ever in baseball history when they were both on...

Cobb and Crawford? Don't look at home runs, look at RBI'S, runs, as well as average.

Foxx and Simmons were only together a few years, but their stats are very impressive.

BadBobbyJenks
10-14-2008, 07:54 PM
What a ridiculous thread full of hyperbole and overexaggeration. Manny is a great hitter; maybe the best in the N.L. right now. What did he hit, .397 over 2 months? But he's a mediocre fielder at the least important defensive position in the game? Best player ever? No way. Best player playing now? A-Rod. Best hitter still playing? Maybe.

He's a great player. That 1-2 punch with Ortiz might have been the best ever in baseball history when they were both on...

Obviously it was hyperbole intended to be fun, but I should have realized I was talking up a Red Sawx player and people would jump in to attack him. Fact is since Manny arrived in LA, he has been ridiculously awesome, that is all.

doublem23
10-14-2008, 08:05 PM
Fact is since Manny arrived in LA, he has been ridiculously awesome, that is all.

True, he's pretty much ended any speculation that the National League isn't inferior to the AL.

SoxNation05
10-14-2008, 09:36 PM
Other than Ortiz for a few years, who did Manny have protecting him?

And lineup protection is still overrated. It may lead to more walks, but OBP is included in the numbers I gave.
Thome? hahh

CashMan
10-14-2008, 11:57 PM
Obviously it was hyperbole intended to be fun, but I should have realized I was talking up a Red Sawx player and people would jump in to attack him. Fact is since Manny arrived in LA, he has been ridiculously awesome, that is all.


I would agree. As a hitter he is great, as a baseball player he is good.

MISoxfan
10-15-2008, 12:51 AM
I'm not really sure how you make a case that Frank Thomas was a better hitter than Manny.

You can't be serious? Frank Thomas has played well into his decline years and his career OPS+ is still higher than Manny's. Frank's prime years were better than Manny's as well.

Manny may very well end up putting up better numbers in the twilight of his career than the oft-injured Frank did, but that still remains to be seen.

DSpivack
10-15-2008, 01:02 AM
You can't be serious? Frank Thomas has played well into his decline years and his career OPS+ is still higher than Manny's. Frank's prime years were better than Manny's as well.

Manny may very well end up putting up better numbers in the twilight of his career than the oft-injured Frank did, but that still remains to be seen.

Big Frank's OPS+ is 156+ compared to Manny's 155+.

However, Manny's career line is .314/.411/.593
While Frank's is .304/.419/.555

The best season between them is the Big Hurt's 1994 campaign, and no other really comes close for either of them. Other than that, Thomas prime is not better than Manny's prime. Their overall career totals are quite similar, and their first full season was both at age 23. However, Manny is four years younger than Frank.

They have had similar careers statistically, but Manny edges Frank out in nearly every single category, except perhaps personality/character/etc.

guillensdisciple
10-15-2008, 10:00 AM
Manny Ramirez is the greatest hitter to have graced baseball since Ted Williams. I wouldn't know much about those days but knowing that someone hit .400 obviously puts him in a league of his own regardless of when he played and playing conditions.

Ramirez is a monster, I have never seen a person will himself to hit at astronomical levels when he really wishes to. Imagine him playing at a full out level for a full year. From what I have read he has averaged a brisk.400 something since joining the Dodgers and you can tell that he has a different swagger.

As awful of a person that he is for not trying in Boston when he was getting paid vast amounts of money, he is truly gifted and his skills as a hitter shouldn't be undermined.

People will say that I am an idiot for saying such a thing, since we have seen Ken Griffey Jr., Barry Bonds (roids or no roids), and Hank Aaron since Ted Williams. However I am speaking about hitting talent, not just number production. It is obvious that Manny chooses when he wishes to hit and when he doesn't, maybe earlier in his career he didn't do this, but now he is playing games with opposing pitchers. Manny doesn't feast off of weak pitchers either, he works off the best and destroys them just like opposing teams jumped off of Clayton Richard in his first few games.

chaerulez
10-15-2008, 10:08 AM
Manny and Frank Thomas are the best right handed hitters of our generation. No one can touch either two. Maybe A-Rod, but A-Rod might be a better slugger but it terms of pure hitting and also getting on base Manny and Frank are better.

CashMan
10-15-2008, 10:11 AM
Manny Ramirez is the greatest hitter to have graced baseball since Ted Williams.


Hmmmm...I am not going to disagree, but it is hard to say that when you watch Vlad's plate coverage.

MISoxfan
10-15-2008, 09:33 PM
Big Frank's OPS+ is 156+ compared to Manny's 155+.

However, Manny's career line is .314/.411/.593
While Frank's is .304/.419/.555

The best season between them is the Big Hurt's 1994 campaign, and no other really comes close for either of them. Other than that, Thomas prime is not better than Manny's prime. Their overall career totals are quite similar, and their first full season was both at age 23. However, Manny is four years younger than Frank.

They have had similar careers statistically, but Manny edges Frank out in nearly every single category, except perhaps personality/character/etc.

Yes Manny's OPS+ is only one lower than Franks. As you said he's still four years younger, give him another four years and lets see how much lower it is.

And Frank's best years are better than Manny's best years, there is no doubt about it. Here are there top 5 seasons.

Frank

.353/.487/.729 OPS+ 211
.347/.456/.611 OPS+ 181
.308/.454/.606 OPS+ 179
.349/.459/.626 OPS+ 178
.317/.426/.607 OPS+ 177


Manny
.351/.457/.697 OPS+ 186
.349/.450/.647 OPS+ 184
.333/.442/.663 OPS+ 173
.329/.439/.619 OPS+ 165
.306/.405/.609 OPS+ 161

FedEx227
10-15-2008, 10:28 PM
That Cleveland team was stacked. One of the best hitting teams I have ever seen.

Yeah... exactly. Who did Manny have protecting him?

Nobody really... unless you've heard of Jim Thome, David Justice, Kenny Lofton, Omar Vizquel, Roberto Alomar, Julio Franco and Albert Belle?

BadBobbyJenks
10-15-2008, 10:30 PM
If you don't throw 95, Don't. Go. There.

whitesox901
10-15-2008, 11:49 PM
Manny is a good hitter in the AL,
Manny is a great hitter in the NL.

Not to take anything from him but, going to the Dodgers was real good for him with the bat

oh and gave him a new start with new teammates