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pythons007
10-08-2008, 10:56 AM
I believe he just received arbitration this year and would become a FA for next year. He is comparable to Javy, but I think could be very good. He is a strikeout pitcher and I think with Coop's help could be a very viable target for KW in the offseason.

How does everyone else feel about him?

CashMan
10-08-2008, 11:02 AM
I believe he just received arbitration this year and would become a FA for next year. He is comparable to Javy, but I think could be very good. He is a strikeout pitcher and I think with Coop's help could be a very viable target for KW in the offseason.

How does everyone else feel about him?

I might be thinking about someone else, but was he the flame thrower in the Pirates system a few years back?

The Milkman
10-08-2008, 11:14 AM
Yes, but he severely lacks control. big time.

Huisj
10-08-2008, 11:19 AM
He has stretches where he is completely dominant, but his mechanics get out of whack easily and make him struggle with control. He's got loads of talent, and electric arm, and great stuff, but the control is a big issue.

kittle42
10-08-2008, 11:21 AM
Oliver Perez ****ing sucks. It would be a train wreck of epic proportions. Ritchie-esque.

soxfan43
10-08-2008, 11:29 AM
Oliver Perez ****ing sucks. It would be a train wreck of epic proportions. Ritchie-esque.


Come on now, let's not go that far. Can there really ever be a bigger pitching bust on the southside than that bum?

chisoxmike
10-08-2008, 11:33 AM
Absolutely not.

I think Richard is going to get a strong look in Spring Training to get on the starting rotation. If he does, we won't be lacking in that area. Fix the offense and bullpen before you add another starter.

pythons007
10-08-2008, 11:38 AM
I understand his control issue, but he could be a fairly cheap option for us that could either anchor our staff or be a viable 5th starter. Coop has been known to fix various problems with pitchers. If it is a mechanical issue that can be worked out. However, if he is an Ankiel type who just looses his will to throw strikes is another. Like an earlier post stated, he can go through a stretch of starts where he carries your staff!

Depending on what he would be looking for, he might come cheap. That is if NY doesn't sign him again.

jkrohn
10-08-2008, 12:09 PM
How many fantasy drafts have had me saying "He'll finally turn it around this year!"

It seems like he is a guy who just loses it on the mound and his control just abandons him completely. He is always teasing with dominant performances followed up by complete implosions. Unfortunately the implosions far outnumber anything good most of the time. I think he would be a complete headcase.

chisoxmike
10-08-2008, 12:11 PM
How many fantasy drafts have had me saying "He'll finally turn it around this year!"

It seems like he is a guy who just loses it on the mound and his control just abandons him completely. He is always teasing with dominant performances followed up by complete implosions. Unfortunately the implosions far outnumber anything good most of the time. I think he would be a complete headcase.


:vazquez:
"You talking about me?"

WhiteSox5187
10-08-2008, 02:50 PM
Oliver Perez ****ing sucks. It would be a train wreck of epic proportions. Ritchie-esque.
I think he would be more Sisco-esque. Live arm, no control. We don't need any more pitchers like that.

whitesox901
10-08-2008, 03:06 PM
I believe he just received arbitration this year and would become a FA for next year. He is comparable to Javy, but I think could be very good. He is a strikeout pitcher and I think with Coop's help could be a very viable target for KW in the offseason.

How does everyone else feel about him?

Totally agree %100 percent

Over By There
10-08-2008, 03:08 PM
Depending on how other moves shake out, I wouldn't object to him at the back of the rotation. I'm not sure I see the parallel with Todd Ritchie, and a comparison to Andrew Sisco is way off-base. I think the Vazquez comparison is the most valid - he is a guy who can throw a few brilliant games a year, but never puts it all together for a whole year.

FedEx227
10-08-2008, 03:09 PM
I don't totally mind him.

But if people around here are frustrated by Javy, I can't imagine what they'll do with Oliver Perez.

And yes, I believe I've drafted Oliver Perez for like 6 straight years in fantasy drafts, with the same mentality "This has to be the year he puts it all together, right?"

kittle42
10-08-2008, 03:20 PM
I'm not sure I see the parallel with Todd Ritchie,

It has nothing to do with his style...just what the end results will be.

btrain929
10-08-2008, 03:31 PM
And considering his age (one of the youngest FA SP's this year), I think he'll cost a pretty penny to obtain.

palehozenychicty
10-08-2008, 03:41 PM
You don't want him on this team. He is a left-handed Vazquez.

Whitesoxfan23
10-08-2008, 04:12 PM
Perez is alot like Javy, but the opposite problem. He sucks against bad teams, but does very well against good teams.

munchman33
10-08-2008, 06:50 PM
Perez is more like Contreras than Vasquez.

I wouldn't be upset if he was here, but I don't expect him to be either.

turners56
10-08-2008, 07:25 PM
Yes, but he severely lacks control. big time.

Sounds like another Don Cooper restoration project.

turners56
10-08-2008, 07:26 PM
Perez is alot like Javy, but the opposite problem. He sucks against bad teams, but does very well against good teams.

I'd rather have that than Javy.

kittle42
10-08-2008, 08:28 PM
Sounds like another Don Cooper restoration project.

He's failed to restore quite a few in the last two years.

guillensdisciple
10-08-2008, 09:50 PM
I would like to see him there, with what Coop has done to pitchers this guy might become Cy young with the sox.

kittle42
10-08-2008, 11:50 PM
I would like to see him there, with what Coop has done to pitchers this guy might become Cy young with the sox.

Did I miss where Cooper turned anyone but Esteban Loaiza into Cy Young? Ok, he did a great job with Thornton, too, but even he is no world beater.

FedEx227
10-08-2008, 11:52 PM
Coop hasn't exactly done wonders with pitchers with great stuff but horrible location. I seem to remember Andy Sisco and Mike MacDougal being pretty god damn horrible.

btrain929
10-08-2008, 11:53 PM
Did I miss where Cooper turned anyone but Esteban Loaiza into Cy Young? Ok, he did a great job with Thornton, too, but even he is no world beater.

I'm not on the Oliver Perez boat either, but you'd have to give him some credit for Gavin Floyd. Kid was a MESS when he got here.

Like I said before, with him being young and a lefty, he'll be priced out of our range.

turners56
10-09-2008, 05:34 PM
He's failed to restore quite a few in the last two years.

Javy didn't work out. But what about both Floyd and Danks? He also got Contreras back on track for a good part of the season this year before he went down the toilet in July.

kittle42
10-09-2008, 06:07 PM
Javy didn't work out. But what about both Floyd and Danks? He also got Contreras back on track for a good part of the season this year before he went down the toilet in July.

Danks wasn't really a restoration. Floyd I'll give him some credit for.

nccwsfan
10-09-2008, 08:43 PM
I believe he just received arbitration this year and would become a FA for next year. He is comparable to Javy, but I think could be very good. He is a strikeout pitcher and I think with Coop's help could be a very viable target for KW in the offseason.

How does everyone else feel about him?

Very likely 2009 rotation
Buehrle
Danks
Floyd
Vazquez
Richard

Spend the money elsewhere.

getonbckthr
10-09-2008, 09:01 PM
Very likely 2009 rotation
Buehrle
Danks
Floyd
Vazquez
Richard

Spend the money elsewhere.
You gotta love a rotation where 4/5 of your starters are capable of 14-15 wins with a 4.00 era and their average salary is 6.5 million.

turners56
10-09-2008, 09:11 PM
Danks wasn't really a restoration. Floyd I'll give him some credit for.

Danks was 6-13 last year with a 5.50 ERA. He decreased his ERA by more than two runs and almost pitched 200 innings. Cooper might not be the biggest reason why he turned around the way he did, but he has to have some effect.

BadBobbyJenks
10-10-2008, 01:15 AM
Danks was 6-13 last year with a 5.50 ERA. He decreased his ERA by more than two runs and almost pitched 200 innings. Cooper might not be the biggest reason why he turned around the way he did, but he has to have some effect.

He went 6-13 with Cooper last year. He is 23, maybe he is just developing like all great starters once did.

WhiteSox5187
10-10-2008, 02:02 AM
Danks wasn't really a restoration. Floyd I'll give him some credit for.
While I think Coop is a great pitching coach, I agree with you about Danks. At times Danks looked pretty good last year and was learning to adjust, he is developing like a lot of starters did...I think the problems with Floyd were all in his head. I think he really just lost confidence in himself when he was traded here and somewhere along the line he picked it back up. Coop deserves some credit for that, as does Ozzie (i think letting him pitch himself into or out of trouble in '07 when it didn't matter probably helped his confidence), and so does Floyd.

However I don't like the philosophy of getting "live arms." There is a huge difference between having a "live arm" and being a good pitcher.

WSox597
10-10-2008, 07:05 AM
Sounds like another Don Cooper restoration project.

Cooper can't work miracles. Vazquez is exhibit A.

Frater Perdurabo
10-10-2008, 07:16 AM
Cooper can't work miracles. Vazquez is exhibit A.

Well, the patient has to want to be helped. The doctor can't heal an unwilling patient. :tongue:

jabrch
10-10-2008, 08:03 AM
Did I miss where Cooper turned anyone but Esteban Loaiza into Cy Young? Ok, he did a great job with Thornton, too, but even he is no world beater.


Kittle - you don't think Cooper does a very good job helping pitchers to improve?

kittle42
10-10-2008, 10:55 AM
Kittle - you don't think Cooper does a very good job helping pitchers to improve?

I think people focus on the successes and forget the failures.

Mohoney
10-10-2008, 11:55 AM
The thing that most people forget about Vazquez is that he is due to make $11.5 million a year for both '09 and '10. If Oliver Perez can be signed for less than that, and we can find somebody else willing to take Vazquez's $23 million contract, that could free up some money.

Like people have already said, Perez is basically a left handed version of Javy anyway. If his inconsistency comes cheaper than Javy's inconsistency, I'm all for it.

CashMan
10-10-2008, 12:13 PM
I think people focus on the successes and forget the failures.


I agree, Loaiza learned the cutter from Buehrle. Perhaps Coops has something to do with his success, but I would put his 20 win season on learning and throwing a new and successful pitch. He did do a GREAT job with Thorton though.

CashMan
10-10-2008, 12:14 PM
The thing that most people forget about Vazquez is that he is due to make $11.5 million a year for both '09 and '10. If Oliver Perez can be signed for less than that, and we can find somebody else willing to take Vazquez's $23 million contract, that could free up some money.

Like people have already said, Perez is basically a left handed version of Javy anyway. If his inconsistency comes cheaper than Javy's inconsistency, I'm all for it.

100% agree, and if Perez is younger, I would think it would be a great idea!

CashMan
10-10-2008, 12:15 PM
However I don't like the philosophy of getting "live arms." There is a huge difference between having a "live arm" and being a good pitcher.


Agree, what did that do for the Sox the one year, when they had 5 guys in the bullpen who could throw 100 mph, but couldn't get any one out?

munchman33
10-10-2008, 12:15 PM
I think people focus on the successes and forget the failures.

And others forget that the types of successes you're talking about aren't common at all. And Coop's had quite a few of them in a short time span.

btrain929
10-10-2008, 12:17 PM
Agree, what did that do for the Sox the one year, when they had 5 guys in the bullpen who could throw 100 mph, but couldn't get any one out?

That was all a myth, anyways. Most of them couldn't throw harder than 95.

CashMan
10-10-2008, 12:18 PM
And others forget that the types of successes you're talking about aren't common at all. And Coop's had quite a few of them in a short time span.

I think what he might be trying to say, is that some people think of Coop to be this God-like pitching coach who can fix anyone.

Sargeant79
10-10-2008, 12:26 PM
The thing that most people forget about Vazquez is that he is due to make $11.5 million a year for both '09 and '10. If Oliver Perez can be signed for less than that, and we can find somebody else willing to take Vazquez's $23 million contract, that could free up some money.

Like people have already said, Perez is basically a left handed version of Javy anyway. If his inconsistency comes cheaper than Javy's inconsistency, I'm all for it.

Perez is young and is represented by Scott Boras. I'll be very surprised if he doesn't get more per year than Javy is due.

munchman33
10-10-2008, 12:27 PM
I think what he might be trying to say, is that some people think of Coop to be this God-like pitching coach who can fix anyone.

If the guy is fixable, I wouldn't doubt Coop could.

CashMan
10-10-2008, 12:32 PM
If the guy is fixable, I wouldn't doubt Coop could.


I wouldn't either. I think he has done a very good job.

btrain929
10-10-2008, 12:38 PM
If the guy is fixable, I wouldn't doubt Coop could.

But I think teams go out and sign guys that are non-tendered and try to fix them. Teams trade for someone that has low value (Sisco) and try to fix them. You don't give a 3-4 year contract out at 10-13 million a year and HOPE Coop can fix him.

munchman33
10-10-2008, 12:42 PM
But I think teams go out and sign guys that are non-tendered and try to fix them. Teams trade for someone that has low value (Sisco) and try to fix them. You don't give a 3-4 year contract out at 10-13 million a year and HOPE Coop can fix him.

That's what scouting and videotapes are for. Coop can decide for himself if a guy is fixable. To that end, perhaps Vasquez IS his failure.

CashMan
10-10-2008, 12:47 PM
That's what scouting and videotapes are for. Coop can decide for himself if a guy is fixable. To that end, perhaps Vasquez IS his failure.

I don't think so. Javy is a .500 pitcher. He proved in NY, he couldn't handle the pressure.

btrain929
10-10-2008, 12:49 PM
That's what scouting and videotapes are for. Coop can decide for himself if a guy is fixable. To that end, perhaps Vasquez IS his failure.

Let's say Coop can identify the 3 flaws that a certain pitcher has that should get him on track. But if the pitcher refuses to interject those corrections properly, or can't do it over a long period of time, then Coop did his job, but we're out a ton of money cuz the pitcher isn't taking advantage of the advice.

The same can be said for hitting coaches (not Walker, but hitting coaches in general). He can tell them to lay off breaking balls in the dirt or the high fast ball with 2 strikes, but if the hitters keep swinging at them, what can he do?

NLaloosh
10-10-2008, 12:51 PM
Perez is very likely to get offered a large long term contract that would be very risky for the Sox. I don't see them doing this at all.

guillensdisciple
10-10-2008, 01:00 PM
I don't understand the point of getting someone like this to be our fourth starter when we can get some quality veteran as our fifth for almost nothing. Many teams would kill to have Javy as their fourth starter regardless if he has no balls or not. The Sox rotation is a pretty damn good one as it stands now and if Floyd and Danks prove to be quality pitchers again.

NLaloosh
10-10-2008, 01:03 PM
besides Oliver Perez is repped by borass. no more needs to be said.

Mohoney
10-10-2008, 01:08 PM
Many teams would kill to have Javy as their fourth starter regardless if he has no balls or not.

I don't think too many teams would kill to be paying him $23 million over the next 2 years, though. You need more out of that kind of money than what Vazquez gives you.

CashMan
10-10-2008, 01:09 PM
I don't understand the point of getting someone like this to be our fourth starter when we can get some quality veteran as our fifth for almost nothing. Many teams would kill to have Javy as their fourth starter regardless if he has no balls or not. The Sox rotation is a pretty damn good one as it stands now and if Floyd and Danks prove to be quality pitchers again.

I think the problem with Javy is, he shows you flashes of being great. I think that is what gets under most peoples skin. He shows he can be great, then melts down for a few starts. As a #4 starter, I can live with it. If you can build your staff to have 3 good pitchers and 2 .500 pitchers, I think you have a decent staff. I think the Sox, have 3 good pitchers. I am hoping Richard, can and will develop into a good pitcher. He showed a little something at the end, and pitched great in the playoffs.

guillensdisciple
10-10-2008, 01:19 PM
I think the problem with Javy is, he shows you flashes of being great. I think that is what gets under most peoples skin. He shows he can be great, then melts down for a few starts. As a #4 starter, I can live with it. If you can build your staff to have 3 good pitchers and 2 .500 pitchers, I think you have a decent staff. I think the Sox, have 3 good pitchers. I am hoping Richard, can and will develop into a good pitcher. He showed a little something at the end, and pitched great in the playoffs.
Yes Richard showed some quality, but I think one more year in the bullpen might do him some good. Who knows he might end up filling that void that Boone ****ing Logan left in the pen. If he doesn't that transfer him to the starting rotation the year after that. The guy has good stuff and eerily reminds me of Buerhle; he pitches extremely fast and doesn't have anything flashy, he can just get them out.

He definitely needs to work on his fielding because some of his throws were some of the most horrendous throws I have ever seen, but other then that I can see a future for him in the White Sox organization.

I believe the Sox are primed to win now, I am talking world series for the next 5 years or so. We need to have security on this team by adding pr oven players. With the core and young talent we have, we can be compared to many teams in the upper echelon.

kittle42
10-10-2008, 01:33 PM
I don't think too many teams would kill to be paying him $23 million over the next 2 years, though. You need more out of that kind of money than what Vazquez gives you.

Actually, I don't think you do. I'd have to take a few minutes to run a comparison of salaries and results, but in this market now (and sorry to tell KW and JR it isn't going to change), $10-$12 million doesn't net you a No. 1.

Vazquez' name is mud around here now because of the last few weeks of the season, mostly (and just inconsistency generally), but I think by the time February and March roll around, we'll realize he may be the best option at his price.

CashMan
10-10-2008, 02:04 PM
Yes Richard showed some quality, but I think one more year in the bullpen might do him some good. Who knows he might end up filling that void that Boone ****ing Logan left in the pen. If he doesn't that transfer him to the starting rotation the year after that. The guy has good stuff and eerily reminds me of Buerhle; he pitches extremely fast and doesn't have anything flashy, he can just get them out.



I really hope he is in the rotation next year, unless Kenny get a front line starter(which he won't). This would be interesting, if Burnett leaves the Jays, would they consider rebuilding and trade Halliday(sp?)?

getonbckthr
10-10-2008, 02:16 PM
In defense of Coop' he is a pitching coach not a psychotrist (sp). Pitching mechanics he can do the head not so much.

Craig Grebeck
10-10-2008, 03:18 PM
Oliver Perez is not Javier Vazquez. That is a terrible comparison. Let's start by looking at their K/9. Admittedly, they are very close in this department. That's the end of the comparison though.
http://www.fangraphs.com/graphs/1514_801_P_cseason_full_1_20080930.png

Well, they can both K guys at an above average rate. What about control? Wow. Perez has no control over his pitches. Clearly Vazquez has the edge.
http://www.fangraphs.com/graphs/1514_801_P_cseason_full_2_20080930.png

Again, Vazquez (obviously) has the edge in K/BB ratio.
http://www.fangraphs.com/graphs/1514_801_P_cseason_full_3_20080930.png

They both give up too many HR, with Vazquez slightly better.
http://www.fangraphs.com/graphs/1514_801_P_cseason_full_4_20080930.png

Here's their BABIP. Not surprisingly, Perez had an above average BABIP and Vaz a below average one. With a better defense behind him, Vazquez will improve next season.
http://www.fangraphs.com/graphs/1514_801_P_cseason_full_7_20080930.png

We can stop the comparisons.

I forgot to mention Ollie does his work in the NL. Big difference.

illini81887
10-10-2008, 06:21 PM
He would be fine as 4th/5th starter

Lukin13
10-10-2008, 06:35 PM
I think Oliver Perez will win his team alot of games based soley on his performance.

I think Oliver Perez will lose his team alot of games based soley on his performance.

While this may be the case for every starting pitcher it is definitely an exaggerated trait of Oliver's. Maybe more so than any other pitcher. Ironically, our '08 4 and 5 starters also suffered from the same "dynamite or terrible" disease.

If this were the Twins board, or the Padres board I maybe understand going and getting Perez.

But the 2009 Chicago White Sox do not need a 5th Starter that is this hot and cold. With our ability to score runs in bunches, we need someone that is going to keep us in games at the back of the rotation.

Mohoney
10-11-2008, 05:06 AM
Actually, I don't think you do. I'd have to take a few minutes to run a comparison of salaries and results, but in this market now (and sorry to tell KW and JR it isn't going to change), $10-$12 million doesn't net you a No. 1.

Vazquez' name is mud around here now because of the last few weeks of the season, mostly (and just inconsistency generally), but I think by the time February and March roll around, we'll realize he may be the best option at his price.

I dug around to see where $11.5 million ranked Javy in terms of starting pitcher salaries for 2008, and I came up with 16th. These are the 15 that I found that made more than him:

Mark Buehrle, $14,000,000
Randy Johnson, $15,100,546
Mike Hampton, $15,975,184
Tim Hudson $15,500,000
John Smoltz, $14,000,000
Carlos Zambrano, $16,000,000
Roy Oswalt, $13,000,000
Jon Garland, $12,000,000
Jason Schmidt, $15,217,401
Ben Sheets, $12,125,000
Johan Santana, $16,984,216
Pedro Martinez, $11,813,351
Andy Pettitte, $16,000,000
Barry Zito, $14,500,000
AJ Burnett, $13,200,000

After looking at this list, there sure is a lot of sunk cost here, so I guess $11.5 million isn't so bad after all. I'm just looking at Vazquez as somebody that we could trade to either:

1) Fill a starting infield spot. We don't know who will be at 3B or 2B. Something along the lines of last year's Garland for Cabrera swap could be doable with Vazquez.

2) Get a younger starting pitcher that has a higher ceiling than Richard or Broadway. Something along the lines of the Garcia for Floyd swap from 2 years ago could also happen.

The AL and NL West teams are off limits in Javy's no trade clause, and I doubt that he would be traded within the division, but that still leaves 16 teams. Anything could happen.

soxinem1
10-11-2008, 09:28 AM
He has stretches where he is completely dominant, but his mechanics get out of whack easily and make him struggle with control. He's got loads of talent, and electric arm, and great stuff, but the control is a big issue.

Minus the walks, we already have the right handed version of Perez with Vazquez. Why have two?

palehozenychicty
10-11-2008, 06:11 PM
Minus the walks, we already have the right handed version of Perez with Vazquez. Why have two?

Thank you. Although Perez throws well against quality teams, he's no different than Javy.

Craig Grebeck
10-11-2008, 06:42 PM
Thank you. Although Perez throws well against quality teams, he's no different than Javy.
Other than the fact he has terrible control.

palehozenychicty
10-11-2008, 10:11 PM
Other than the fact he has terrible control.


That too.

Billy Ashley
10-12-2008, 03:54 PM
Perez looked like a beast with Pitt one season. Other than that he's been totally average or awful. He's going to command a ton of money because he's still relatively young, strikes a ton of people out and has had some recent success but he's not very durable and not very reliable.

The White Sox should pass on him. Everyone should. He's the booby prize of this FA pitching market.