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Lip Man 1
10-06-2008, 10:22 PM
Let the speculation start. Who does Kenny attempt to move off the 40 man roster this off season?

Here are my "picks" (and remember I'm not saying ALL of these guys are gone, just that I think Kenny will try to move them, or release them off the roster. Some also are free agent's and won't be returning)

Dewon Day
Boone Logan
Mike MacDougal
Andrew Sisco
Toby Hall
Orlando Cabrera
Joe Crede
Ken Griffey Jr.
Jerry Owens

He may also TRY to move the following players or not re-sign them depending on if he can get a suitable replacement (or upgrade if you will...)

Lance Broadway
Jose Contreras (injury situation - may not return)
Horacio Ramirez
Josh Fields
Juan Uribe
Brian Anderson

----------

One thing is clear, it appears it's going to be a busy off season with speed (according to the mainstream media) the primary focus.

Lip

Craig Grebeck
10-06-2008, 10:24 PM
I'd prefer good contact and OBP to be the highest priority, with speed as a secondary concern.

Lip Man 1
10-06-2008, 10:27 PM
Well they took a shot at OBP and that didn't work to well did it? (I'm looking at you Nick...)

Contact AND speed, I certainly agree with.

Paging Mr. Figgins, paging Mr. Cano, paging Mr. Roberts, paging Mr. Hudson.

I'll take any two please.

Lip

stevied23
10-06-2008, 10:28 PM
I don't think Uribe goes anywhere.

Craig Grebeck
10-06-2008, 10:30 PM
Well they took a shot at OBP and that didn't work to well did it? (I'm looking at you Nick...)

Contact AND speed, I certainly agree with.

Paging Mr. Figgins, paging Mr. Cano, paging Mr. Roberts, paging Mr. Hudson.

I'll take any two please.

Lip
OBP is working well for everyone else. We need speed, as long as the guys can hit.

Not sure why you cited Cano, he doesn't steal any bases.

itsnotrequired
10-06-2008, 10:46 PM
Folks:

"Imitation is the sincerest form of flattery." This proverb is generally unattributed, but I tracked down Roland Hemond outside a gas station near his North Shore home and he told me to leave him the **** alone alone or he'd call the cops. I decided to see what Tom Paciorek was up to instead.

Itsnotrequired

DumpJerry
10-06-2008, 10:49 PM
I don't think Uribe goes anywhere.
I think you're right.

SoxSpeed22
10-06-2008, 10:51 PM
I'll **** bricks if I see Ehren Wasserman or Boone Logan on this team next year.

Irishsox1
10-06-2008, 10:51 PM
Another year of Vazquez? Oh, No!

WhiteSox5187
10-06-2008, 10:53 PM
I thought we already let go of Dewon Day?

Cuck the Fubs
10-06-2008, 10:53 PM
I'd personally love to see OC stick around and be our 2 hole hitter.....add Figgens and let's win this thing!

Now you will all think I'm really nutty when I tell you I want to see this rotation:

Buehrle
Danks
Floyd
Javvy ( yes Javvy, can you pick a better # 4 starter )
Clayton Richards

hi im skot
10-06-2008, 10:53 PM
Folks:

"Imitation is the sincerest form of flattery." This proverb is generally unattributed, but I tracked down Roland Hemond outside a gas station near his North Shore home and he told me to leave him the **** alone alone or he'd call the cops. I decided to see what Tom Paciorek was up to instead.

Itsnotrequired

Shouldn't you just end with "its?"

BleacherBandit
10-06-2008, 10:53 PM
What quality pitchers will be on the market?

DaveFeelsRight
10-06-2008, 10:59 PM
What quality pitchers will be on the market?Starting pitchers
Kris Benson (33)
A.J. Burnett (32) - can opt out after '08 season
Paul Byrd (38)
Roger Clemens (46)
Matt Clement (33)
Bartolo Colon (36)
Ryan Dempster (32)
Shawn Estes (36)
Josh Fogg (32)
Freddy Garcia (33)
Jon Garland (29)
Tom Glavine (43)
Mike Hampton (36)
Mark Hendrickson (35)
Livan Hernandez (34)
Orlando Hernandez (43)
Jason Jennings (30)
Randy Johnson (45)
John Lackey (30) - $9MM club option for '09 with a $0.5MM buyout
Jon Lieber (39)
Braden Looper (34)
Rodrigo Lopez (33) - club option for '09
Derek Lowe (36)
Greg Maddux (43)
Pedro Martinez (37)
Sergio Mitre (28)
Jamie Moyer (46)
Mark Mulder (31) - $11MM club option for '09 with a $1.5MM buyout
Mike Mussina (40)
Carl Pavano (33) - $13MM club option for '09 with a $1.95MM buyout
Brad Penny (31) - $8.75MM club option for '09 with a $2MM buyout
Odalis Perez (32)
Oliver Perez (27)
Andy Pettitte (37)
Sidney Ponson (32)
Mark Prior (27)
Kenny Rogers (44)
Glendon Rusch (34)
C.C. Sabathia (28)
Curt Schilling (42)
Ben Sheets (30)
John Smoltz (42)
Tim Wakefield (42) - perpetual $4MM club option
Kip Wells (32)
Randy Wolf (32)

Noneck
10-06-2008, 11:02 PM
Paging Mr. Figgins, paging Mr. Cano, paging Mr. Roberts,

I'll take any two please.

Lip
Lip,

Maybe I am missing something but who do the Sox have that they can afford to lose and the other teams will want in order for the Sox to obtain 2 of these players.

kevingrt
10-06-2008, 11:19 PM
I don't think Uribe goes anywhere.

I love the idea of upgrading at both 3B and 2B or SS. At least two out of those three positions with Juan being a great utility infielder and someone that can step in if there is injury. I also like the idea of maybe Chris Getz making the 40 man roster and being another utility infielder with speed pending how he recovers from his wrist injury.

And unlike many people here, if we can get Cabrera for the right price I do not mind resigning him. Just my thought. Carl Everett wasn't the best teammate either and we won with him.

Lukin13
10-06-2008, 11:39 PM
I am sure I will say this 100 times this offseason...

BUT

If the Sox are going to keep Thome, Dye, Konerko... a little speed at the top isn't what we need. We need to fill the holes with high OBP guys, not guys that are on base less than a third of the time, but steal thirty bases.

If "the big three" are back we need to slug it out. No point in stealing second and bunting to third in front of Thome who is more likely to hit a homer than a base hit.

gregory18n
10-06-2008, 11:48 PM
the angels will supposedly go hard for crede & with their wealth of OF's, the price for figgins shouldn't be outrageous.

oeo
10-06-2008, 11:49 PM
I'm hoping the first person gone is Mr. Greg Walker.

Craig Grebeck
10-06-2008, 11:53 PM
the angels will supposedly go hard for crede & with their wealth of OF's, the price for figgins shouldn't be outrageous.
Next issue...

NICK ****ING PUNTO?!

gobears1987
10-06-2008, 11:54 PM
I really want the Beach Boy gone, but I doubt anyone will be willing to take him.

thomas35forever
10-06-2008, 11:56 PM
Next issue...

NICK ****ING PUNTO?!
Forget Punto. If we somehow trade for Carlos Gomez, Hawk will probably follow him home every night.

kevingrt
10-06-2008, 11:57 PM
I'm hoping the first person gone is Mr. Greg Walker.

Their strategy or whatever versus soft tossers is terrible. Just look at the game today. They had no idea what to do at the plate versus Sonnanstine. At one point he had thrown 13 out of 15 strikes and we only swung at one of them.

I would not mind seeing Greg go too.

Scottiehaswheels
10-06-2008, 11:58 PM
I'd really really like to keep Jermaine around, I just don't know how plausible that will be when the trading market heats up in Dec.

...
10-07-2008, 12:09 AM
I really want the Beach Boy gone, but I doubt anyone will be willing to take him.

Lamest attempt at a humorous nickname ever.

A. Cavatica
10-07-2008, 12:17 AM
We have a lot of dead wood. It's a pity Konerko now has 10/5 rights and Thome's option vested. One of those guys (preferably Konerko) needs to go, somehow. Otherwise we have to explore trading Dye.


Griffey turned out to be a bust, didn't he? Talk about dead wood!

Swisher was an even bigger bust, but I don't see the Sox giving up on him after only one season. He was a good player for the A's and he's still relatively young, healthy, and cheap.

Crede won't be back unless he ditches Boras, and that's not happening.

Cabrera was our best hitter for average and played a pretty good shortstop, though he had the yips in the last week, and I seriously wondered if he was on the take. He won't be back. I'm glad he played well enough to be a Type A free agent.

Hall, Uribe, Owens, Wise, Anderson, Fields -- who knows? Hall was a real disappointment in his time here. Uribe makes a fine utility infielder/insurance policy but I hate the idea of him being a regular again. Anderson, Wise and Owens are decent reserve outfielders, but I no longer think Anderson is going to make it as a starting CF. I think Fields will be back to rebuild his trade value.

Among the pitchers, we're stuck with Contreras, and probably stuck with Dotel. Someone would take Vazquez, because his salary's not ridiculous, but he's never going to be better than a durable mid-rotation guy; for what we're paying him, we might as well keep him.

MacDougal, Logan, Ramirez: gone. Broadway will be sent back to AAA.

Russell will return, as will Clayton Richard (of course).

NoNeckEra
10-07-2008, 12:51 AM
Our offense and outfield defense are in shambles.

Start with TCQ and The Missle, and build around them.
If you have to pay some of Konerko's or Thome's salary to dump them, you've got to do it.

Look at Tampa's lineup, for example. They all hit, they all steal, and they all field.

We were totally outclassed by this team and we had no business on the same field with them.

Craig Grebeck
10-07-2008, 12:55 AM
Our offense and outfield defense are in shambles.

Start with TCQ and The Missle, and build around them.
If you have to pay some of Konerko's or Thome's salary to dump them, you've got to do it.

Look at Tampa's lineup, for example. They all hit, they all steal, and they all field.

We were totally outclassed by this team and we had no business on the same field with them.
What a stinking pile of **** this post was.

Take away Evan Longoria and replace him with Terry Tiffee and we'll see how this series turns out.*

*for clarity's sake, Evan Longoria = Carlos Quentin/DeWayne Wise = Terry Tiffee

NoNeckEra
10-07-2008, 01:08 AM
What a stinking pile of **** this post was.

Take away Evan Longoria and replace him with Terry Tiffee and we'll see how this series turns out.*

*for clarity's sake, Evan Longoria = Carlos Quentin/DeWayne Wise = Terry Tiffee
Sox pitching DID take away Longoria today and EVERYONE else hit.
Take away TCQ and the Sox get 4 hits a game at HOME!

PLEASE don't apply for a front office job with the Sox.

Craig Grebeck
10-07-2008, 01:12 AM
Sox pitching DID take away Longoria today and EVERYONE else hit.
Take away TCQ and the Sox get 4 hits a game at HOME!

PLEASE don't apply for a front office job with the Sox.
If you seriously want to tell me we don't belong on the same field as the Devil Rays, you can go pound sand. We are a solid team who had one too many injuries. They are a supremely talented team, but don't act as though they are out of our league.

And in response to your first post, how the hell do you suggest we "get rid of" Konerko/Thome?

CWSpalehoseCWS
10-07-2008, 01:16 AM
Here's my predictions:
Jermaine Dye - Traded
Boone Logan - Traded
Josh Fields - Traded
Orlando Cabrera - Signs with another team
Ken Griffey Jr. - Signs with another team
Dewon Day - Released/DFA/Traded
H. Ramirez - Released/DFA/Traded
MacDougal - Released/DFA/Traded

I want to say he'll shop Konerko, but Paulie isn't gonna waive his NTC.

gowhitesox
10-07-2008, 01:27 AM
The pitchers I would get rid of are:

Jose Contreras - he's the end of the line
Javier Vazquez - There's is better pitchers then him around
Boone Logan - I haven't seen him do much good all year.
MacDougal - trade him if we can

players
Griffey Jr. - Will sign with another team.
Swisher - There are outfielders with a better batting average then what he had.
Crede - Trade him
Brian Anderson - trade him possibly.


I would keep Jermaine Dye and Juan Uribe

oeo
10-07-2008, 01:32 AM
I really want the Beach Boy gone, but I doubt anyone will be willing to take him.

That nickname still sucks. :shrug:

Scottiehaswheels
10-07-2008, 01:33 AM
Not a player but, I think Cora finally gets a manager job elsewhere too.

Lip Man 1
10-07-2008, 01:35 AM
This and that:

Regarding Uribe, remember he is a free agent. No guarantees that he wants to return especially if he's a utility guy again.

Vazquez isn't going anywhere for one simple reason. The Sox are already short a quality starter because Contreras is done. You honestly think they'll go out and somehow come up with two starting pitchers?

NoNeck, Fields can be a good trading chip to start. Swisher is also possible ditto for Konerko if he'll go to a West Coast / Arizona team. Plus it's possible Kenny works a three or four way deal to get some chips to use as part of a bigger deal. Since when has an off season gone by and Kenny not made multiple moves?

Lip

Craig Grebeck
10-07-2008, 01:36 AM
Javier Vazquez - There's is better pitchers then him around

Name a pitcher on the open market who is guaranteed to put up 200 innings and a reasonable ERA.
Swisher - There are outfielders with a better batting average then what he had.
Horrible criteria.
Crede - Trade him

Not possible.
Brian Anderson - trade him possibly.
Why?

HITMEN OF 77
10-07-2008, 01:52 AM
The pitchers I would get rid of are:

Jose Contreras - he's the end of the line
Javier Vazquez - There's is better pitchers then him around
Boone Logan - I haven't seen him do much good all year.
MacDougal - trade him if we can

players
Griffey Jr. - Will sign with another team.
Swisher - There are outfielders with a better batting average then what he had.
Crede - Trade him
Brian Anderson - trade him possibly.


I would keep Jermaine Dye and Juan Uribe

Agreed! I'd add PK to the keep list as well.

RockJock07
10-07-2008, 02:43 AM
I'm hoping the first person gone is Mr. Greg Walker.

Ozzie, not Kenny, has the control over that. Yesterday on the score, Jessie Rogers said that Ozzie is on record that he wants everyone from this seasons coaching staff back for next season. Things can change, so we'll see.

In terms of pitching Im ok with the starters returning, but middle relief must be addressed. I know Darren Oliver and Jeremey Affelt (sp?) are FA's so I'd start there.

This may sound out there but I'd take a chance on Mark Prior. I wouldn't mind signing him to a minor League deal and seeing if the Sox can catch Lighting in a bottle. I'd also think about Randy Wolf, pitched well this season.

I think Griffey is a lock to be gone as are Boone Logan, MacDougal, Crede, Fields. I would try to trade either Dye or Konerko. If KW could package Dye, Swisher, and Fields together (2 of those guys are young, all 3 average out to be fairly priced) and get a stud 3B or 1B prospect I'd do that deal.

I think Konerko would waive his NTC to go to Anehiem or the Diamondback who may be interested in a 1B prospect if they can't Resign Adam Dunn to play first. He's from Scottsdale and would probably jump at the chance to play at home or near there. Konerko get's Figgens from Anaheim and maybe you could get Max Scherzer from AZ if KW plays his cards right.

gobears1987
10-07-2008, 02:48 AM
That nickname still sucks. :shrug:Like I give a ****?

The only thing that sucks is Javy Vazquez himself. Both his attitude and his performance are worthless for this team.

kittle42
10-07-2008, 05:29 AM
Like I give a ****?

The only thing that sucks is Javy Vazquez himself. Both his attitude and his performance are worthless for this team.

Again, name another pitcher at that price who will put up numbers as good as Vazquez and fit nicely into a No. 4 slot and I'll be happy to take him.

He's not going anywhere, I think.

Those clamoring for the departure of Swisher face the same issue - he's durable and under contract at a good price for several years. he's not leaving.

Those are two purely business decisions, and good ones, actually. They allow the Sox more leverage in replacing other players.

LITTLE NELL
10-07-2008, 06:59 AM
Somehow we have to move Thome, I"ll forever be thankful for last weeks blast against the Twins but I saw too many strikeouts and ground balls to the right side shift. I would have loved to see him punch a little single down the 3b line yesterday and then Paulie could maybe get a dinger.
As far as DH next year I would rotate Paulie, Dye and Swish with Swish being the swing guy.

Whitesoxfan23
10-07-2008, 07:01 AM
Somehow we have to move Thome, I"ll forever be thankful for last weeks blast against the Twins but I saw too many strikeouts and ground balls to the right side shift. I would have loved to see him punch a little single down the 3b line yesterday and then Paulie could maybe get a dinger.
As far as DH next year I would rotate Paulie, Dye and Swish with Swish being the swing guy.



I agree. And how many times did we see him strike out on a 3-2 count? Alot. I rather have Konerko than Thome, to be quite honest. Konerko is more capable of bouncing back.

Mohoney
10-07-2008, 07:03 AM
Again, name another pitcher at that price who will put up numbers as good as Vazquez and fit nicely into a No. 4 slot and I'll be happy to take him.

Trade Javy Vazquez and sign Derek Lowe. Clayton Richard and Lance Broadway can compete for the last opening if Jose Contreras is done for good.

Marqhead
10-07-2008, 07:38 AM
Keep Vazquez. Right now I'm viewing him as a #4 starter behind our big three. There aren't too many better #4s in the league. despite his performance in the big games he still puts up great numbers in that slot and eats innings.

I hate the guy as much as everyone else, and it was good to see him booed on Sunday, but you can't sell him off cheap and watch him eat 200+ for another team while striking out 200 and winning 15 games. As much as it pains me: We NEED Javy.

Sad
10-07-2008, 07:48 AM
adios O.C. :mad:
I've seen enough of your crap

Alexei4president
10-07-2008, 07:56 AM
i think before we go out gettin more offense we first work on pitching.....personally i would rather have jon garland back then another year of Javy.....oh and what do us and so many other teams see in Josh fields to me he looks like a prospect bust

Craig Grebeck
10-07-2008, 08:37 AM
Trade Javy Vazquez and sign Derek Lowe. Clayton Richard and Lance Broadway can compete for the last opening if Jose Contreras is done for good.
Right now there is probably a 0% chance Broadway or Richard can pitch over 200 innings at Javy's skill level.

TomBradley72
10-07-2008, 08:37 AM
I'd like to clear the roster of: Crede, Uribe, Cabrera, Swisher, Hall, Vazquez, Griffey and Owens.

Craig Grebeck
10-07-2008, 08:58 AM
I'd like to clear the roster of: Crede, Uribe, Cabrera, Swisher, Hall, Vazquez, Griffey and Owens.
This is an exercise in futility. Why on earth are we trying to get rid of Swisher, Vazquez, and Uribe? Uribe is awesome as a utility guy. Swisher will not be dealt low and is an extremely talented young player. Vazquez can not be reasonably replaced and also will not be dealt while his value his low.

oeo
10-07-2008, 08:59 AM
Like I give a ****?

You should.

russ99
10-07-2008, 09:06 AM
#1 - Greg Walker. Regardless of our injury issues, the one thing that was constant this season was a poor approach at the plate. You can blame the players if you like, but it's happening to way too many guys, and all at the same time. Regardless if it's poor preparation or the players tuning him out, he needs to go to give this club a fresh start at hitting next season.

Give the Sox a week to celebrate a successful season, then give Walker the axe, he's a member of the Sox family, so do it cordially. And Jerry, bring in a solid major league guy with credentials, don't just promote the minor league instructor. As for Ozzie, he can't be pleased with the results this season, plus Greg went over his head to Jerry this season after Oz's TB tirade, in which he wanted to can Greg already...

As for players not with the Sox in 2009:

Crede
Cabrera
Griffey
Uribe (he's a FA and will want to start elsewhere)
1 of Thome/Konerko (even though it will be tough for Kenny to do so)
Anderson (give him a chance to start, and Wise and Owens are decent backups to our newly acquired CF)
Hall
Vazquez (unless we can't get anything decent for him. Pitching's scarce, some GM will bite and give us a solid return)
Contreras (injury settlement?)
Wassermann
MacDougal
Logan
Ramirez (Horatio, not Alexei)

Needs:
Leadoff guy, at CF or 2B/SS.
Contact hitter for average with some speed at the other position above.
5th starter, though Richard could take the job
6th inning bullpen guy(s)
Backup C, but Hall could come back unless he wants a bigger contract
3B, though Fields can hold down if our payroll's taxed due to the above.

asindc
10-07-2008, 09:22 AM
This is an exercise in futility. Why on earth are we trying to get rid of Swisher, Vazquez, and Uribe? Uribe is awesome as a utility guy. Swisher will not be dealt low and is an extremely talented young player. Vazquez can not be reasonably replaced and also will not be dealt while his value his low.

I agree 100% with this. Yes, Javy lacks a pair, but as I always say, it's much, much easier to fire someone than to hire their replacement. This is a classic case of that. While a bit expensive as a 4th starter, we are not likely to find a less expensive replacement that will do a comparable job.

Get rid of Swisher? Forget it. He is a 6th or 7th hole hitter who should hit about .275 avg., 27 hr, and close to .400 OBP when he is on. His contract is cheap and he should be motivated to play better next year.

As for Uribe, he is a somewhat expensive utility infielder, but a great one nonetheless. As a starter? Nope, not at all. If he insists on starting? Thanks for the memories, especially game 4 of the 2005 WS, but see ya! If he is content with 2-3 starts a week with the possibility of starting if any of the 2b, ss, or 3b go down, let's keep him.

oeo
10-07-2008, 09:22 AM
Their strategy or whatever versus soft tossers is terrible. Just look at the game today. They had no idea what to do at the plate versus Sonnanstine. At one point he had thrown 13 out of 15 strikes and we only swung at one of them.

I would not mind seeing Greg go too.

"Once they got those runs early, our guys became too conservative," Walker said. "I thought we were taking first-pitch strikes every time, and [Sonnanstine] wasn't going to walk anyone."

Wow, Walk. First of all, why was it not driven into their heads before the game that Sonnanstine was not going to walk anyone? Secondly (since you decided against having a game plan), when you saw guys taking first pitch strike (right down Broadway), why didn't you open your mouth then that they need to stay aggressive, and not after the game?

Greg Walker sucks. His philosophy is, 'I have no philosophy, you're on your own...I just pick up my pay check.'

Hokiesox
10-07-2008, 09:34 AM
Would Swisher be better with a different hitting coach? He was great in April, but then he started changing his ways. I wish we could keep him if Walker goes.

palehozenychicty
10-07-2008, 09:35 AM
This and that:

Regarding Uribe, remember he is a free agent. No guarantees that he wants to return especially if he's a utility guy again.

Vazquez isn't going anywhere for one simple reason. The Sox are already short a quality starter because Contreras is done. You honestly think they'll go out and somehow come up with two starting pitchers?

NoNeck, Fields can be a good trading chip to start. Swisher is also possible ditto for Konerko if he'll go to a West Coast / Arizona team. Plus it's possible Kenny works a three or four way deal to get some chips to use as part of a bigger deal. Since when has an off season gone by and Kenny not made multiple moves?

Lip

If they can get two young players for Vazquez, you do it. They could get similar stats out of Richard next year with a chance for upside. He showed me something this year. I'd like to see a possible deal with the Pirates for Sanchez and McLouth.

TomBradley72
10-07-2008, 09:36 AM
This is an exercise in futility. Why on earth are we trying to get rid of Swisher, Vazquez, and Uribe? Uribe is awesome as a utility guy. Swisher will not be dealt low and is an extremely talented young player. Vazquez can not be reasonably replaced and also will not be dealt while his value his low.

It was a "wish list"...I agree with Vazquez....I'd banish him to the 4th/5th slot and hope for the best.

I don't agree with your assessment of Swisher. He's a low average/high strike out guy who is best suited for a corner OF position (preferably LF)...and we're set in the corners. I think we need to move in the direction of hitters who make more contact than Swisher. And hitting <.200 post All Star break is bull****. Off course it has to be a solid trade for the WSox...but I would be happy to see him leave Chicago.

Same with Uribe...low batting average/high strike outs. Depending on the make up of our IF...I think a LH hitting utility IF would be more valuable to the team than Uribe. Again, I'd like to see more speed and more contact.

Since we're stuck with Konerko, Thome and Dye due to their contracts and assuming TCQ is in LF and AJ behind the plate...we need to use the other roster spots to get more speed, contact, fewer strike outs, etc. into the mix.

If we're afraid to move guys like Uribe and Swisher to re-tool this team, then 2009 is going to look alot like 2006-2008.

oeo
10-07-2008, 09:38 AM
If they can get two young players for Vazquez, you do it. They could get similar stats out of Richard next year with a chance for upside. He showed me something this year. I'd like to see a possible deal with the Pirates for Sanchez and McLouth.

There's no way Richard gives us what Javy does. The only thing Richard showed me is he's a bulldog, and not much is going to phase him.

His stuff certainly isn't start every 5 days ready, though. No way I depend on him going into the season.

palehozenychicty
10-07-2008, 09:41 AM
There's no way Richard gives us what Javy does. The only thing Richard showed me is he's a bulldog, and not much is going to phase him.

His stuff certainly isn't start every 5 days ready, though. No way I depend on him going into the season.


Everyone had a similar sentiment about Danks and Floyd last winter, and at the end of the season, they were our best pitchers. I'm not saying that Richard should get the job outright. But he should definitely be in the mix for the end of the rotation, with another castoff e.g. Prior, whomever.

Vazquez will give you consistent stats, but he's not going to win you a lot of games, especially when he's bad.

oeo
10-07-2008, 09:41 AM
Same with Uribe...low batting average/high strike outs. Depending on the make up of our IF...I think a LH hitting utility IF would be more valuable to the team than Uribe. Again, I'd like to see more speed and more contact.

A utility infielder is not there for offense. If we can find a LH-hitting, fast, contact guy who hits for good average, then he should be starting.

TomBradley72
10-07-2008, 09:42 AM
Get rid of Swisher? Forget it. He is a 6th or 7th hole hitter who should hit about .275 avg., 27 hr, and close to .400 OBP when he is on. His contract is cheap and he should be motivated to play better next year.



He's never hit .275 once in the majors. He's never hit 27 HRs in a season. He's never has an OBP or .400.

I don't think his problem was motivation this year. He's a career .244 hitter who stikes out ~130X/year. Yes he draws walks which drives up his OBP. I just don't think the overall equation is what we need on the 2009 roster.

btrain929
10-07-2008, 09:42 AM
Our offense and outfield defense are in shambles.

Start with TCQ and The Missle, and build around them.
If you have to pay some of Konerko's or Thome's salary to dump them, you've got to do it.

Look at Tampa's lineup, for example. They all hit, they all steal, and they all field.

We were totally outclassed by this team and we had no business on the same field with them.

Yeah, and it took them being bad for around 10 years to get all those players.

oeo
10-07-2008, 09:43 AM
Everyone had a similar sentiment about Danks and Floyd last winter, and at the end of the season, they were our best pitchers.

I didn't. :dunno:

Richard's stuff is the kind that the league catches onto quickly, and he's eventually getting shelled every night. Hell, teams were catching on the second time through the order against him this year. You can't compare his stuff to that of Danks and Floyd.

TomBradley72
10-07-2008, 09:45 AM
A utility infielder is not there for offense. If we can find a LH-hitting, fast, contact guy who hits for good average, then he should be starting.

I just don't think we can win with a roster filled with guys who hit in the .240's, can't run and strike out alot....but he does bring some good defense at 3 positions...so I'd keep him if we can mix in a LH hitting IF off the bench as well.

oeo
10-07-2008, 09:47 AM
I just don't think we can win with a roster filled with guys who hit in the .240's, can't run and strike out alot....but he does bring some good defense at 3 positions...so I'd keep him if we can mix in a LH hitting IF off the bench as well.

And there's your definition of a good utility infielder. Look, we're not going to find this made up left-handed hitter whose got five tools. You're either going to get offense, or you're going to get defense...and I'll take the defense.

We cannot depend on Uribe as a starter, but put him in a utility role and he's suddenly a very valuable player.

BTW, we have your speedy, contact, left-handed hitter. His name is Chris Getz.

btrain929
10-07-2008, 09:50 AM
It was a "wish list"...I agree with Vazquez....I'd banish him to the 4th/5th slot and hope for the best.

I don't agree with your assessment of Swisher. He's a low average/high strike out guy who is best suited for a corner OF position (preferably LF)...and we're set in the corners. I think we need to move in the direction of hitters who make more contact than Swisher. And hitting <.200 post All Star break is bull****. Off course it has to be a solid trade for the WSox...but I would be happy to see him leave Chicago.

Same with Uribe...low batting average/high strike outs. Depending on the make up of our IF...I think a LH hitting utility IF would be more valuable to the team than Uribe. Again, I'd like to see more speed and more contact.

Since we're stuck with Konerko, Thome and Dye due to their contracts and assuming TCQ is in LF and AJ behind the plate...we need to use the other roster spots to get more speed, contact, fewer strike outs, etc. into the mix.

If we're afraid to move guys like Uribe and Swisher to re-tool this team, then 2009 is going to look alot like 2006-2008.

We might look like a 90 win team or a team that won the Central? OH NO!

btrain929
10-07-2008, 09:51 AM
He's never hit .275 once in the majors. He's never hit 27 HRs in a season. He's never has an OBP or .400.

I don't think his problem was motivation this year. He's a career .244 hitter who stikes out ~130X/year. Yes he draws walks which drives up his OBP. I just don't think the overall equation is what we need on the 2009 roster.

I'm pretty sure he had a 35 HR season w/ OAK.

palehozenychicty
10-07-2008, 09:53 AM
We might look like a 90 win team or a team that won the Central? OH NO!


They did win the Central, but were arguably the most flawed team to get in. I'm happy we got in, but there's room for improvement, and Tampa showed us that in this series.

TomBradley72
10-07-2008, 09:54 AM
And there's your definition of a good utility infielder. Look, we're not going to find this made up left-handed hitter whose got five tools. You're either going to get offense, or you're going to get defense...and I'll take the defense.

We cannot depend on Uribe as a starter, but put him in a utility role and he's suddenly a very valuable player.

BTW, we have your speedy, contact, left-handed hitter. His name is Chris Getz.

I think you're right...I was about to post about Getz...you beat me to it. Uribe is great insurance against a long term injury at three positions...if he'd take the utility role...I'm good with keeping him.

TomBradley72
10-07-2008, 09:55 AM
I'm pretty sure he had a 35 HR season w/ OAK.

You're right.

NLaloosh
10-07-2008, 10:11 AM
WILL BE GONE:

Konerko
Uribe
Cabrera
Hall
Crede
Griffey
Owens
Fields
Broadway
MacDougal
Logan

WILL STAY:

Dye
A.J.
Thome
Anderson
Wise
Swisher
Ramirez
Getz
Quentin
Buehrle
Danks
Floyd
Vazquez
Contreras
Linebrink
Jenks
Dotel
Russell
Wassermann
Thornton
Richard
Carrasco

I predict that Paulie waives his NTC and he gets moved probably to the Angels.

They don't trade Dye because they won't get offered enough for him.

Thome is untradeable.

Vazquez probably stays because he's still a good deal unless somebody really makes a nice offer for him.

Fields has to be gone because they can't afford any more of his type on this team and is suspect defensively and offensively.

It would be foolish to trade Swisher now. He stays. Even, if Paulie stays.

I just have a feeling that Anderson stays as much as they disdain some parts of his game. If he could just get his OBP around .330 he could be a very valuable player.

Logan might bring something decent in return.

MacDougal gets dumped for nothing.

Broadway goes as filler in a trade.

They like Uribe but changes need to be made and they don't have that many options. He won't be re-signed.

Griffey? Thanks for the nostalgia. Adios.

JERRY OWENS????? PLEASE PLEASE PLEASE!!!!! I PRAY THAT I WILL NOT BE TYPING HIS NAME EVER AGAIN!!!!! PLEASE!!!!!!! KENNY,SIGN CARL LEWIS IF YOU FEEL THE URGE. SIGN GAIL DEVERS. I'M SURE SHE HAS MORE POWER.


2 THINGS THAT I HAVE LEARNED TRYING TO PREDIT KW'S MOVES
---------------------------------------------------------------

1. Kenny will TRY to make most of the moves that are obvious to us. Unfortunately, he can't always make players, agents, other GM's etc. go along with our/his plans and wishes. He shouldn't be faulted for that.

2. Kenny will come up with players and deals that none of us have even suspected. See Ramirez, Quentin, Danks, Floyd, Thornton etc. This is the fun part! I'm so looking forward to seeing how creative he is this offseason.

And, I PROMISE, not to criticize his attempts! I truly do. He's proven himself to me and he gets all benefit of the doubt from me from now on. I vow not to criticize him again!

Of course, I vowed to lose 30 pounds this year,too.

Craig Grebeck
10-07-2008, 10:11 AM
It was a "wish list"...I agree with Vazquez....I'd banish him to the 4th/5th slot and hope for the best.

I don't agree with your assessment of Swisher. He's a low average/high strike out guy who is best suited for a corner OF position (preferably LF)...and we're set in the corners. I think we need to move in the direction of hitters who make more contact than Swisher. And hitting <.200 post All Star break is bull****. Off course it has to be a solid trade for the WSox...but I would be happy to see him leave Chicago.

Same with Uribe...low batting average/high strike outs. Depending on the make up of our IF...I think a LH hitting utility IF would be more valuable to the team than Uribe. Again, I'd like to see more speed and more contact.

Since we're stuck with Konerko, Thome and Dye due to their contracts and assuming TCQ is in LF and AJ behind the plate...we need to use the other roster spots to get more speed, contact, fewer strike outs, etc. into the mix.

If we're afraid to move guys like Uribe and Swisher to re-tool this team, then 2009 is going to look alot like 2006-2008.
Your post makes no sense. We are not "stuck with" Dye. We can move him if need be -- considering he probably won't hit like this again and his defense is horrible. Which would open the door for...Swisher in RF!

Too simple.

Craig Grebeck
10-07-2008, 10:12 AM
WILL BE GONE:

Konerko
Uribe
Cabrera
Hall
Crede
Griffey
Owens
Fields
Broadway
MacDougal
Logan

WILL STAY:

Dye
A.J.
Thome
Anderson
Wise
Swisher
Ramirez
Getz
Quentin
Buehrle
Danks
Floyd
Vazquez
Contreras
Linebrink
Jenks
Dotel
Russell
Wassermann
Thornton
Richard
Carrasco

I predict that Paulie waives his NTC and he gets moved probably to the Angels.

They don't trade Dye because they won't get offered enough for him.

Thome is untradeable.

Vazquez probably stays because he's still a good deal unless somebody really makes a nice offer for him.

Fields has to be gone because they can't afford any more of his type on this team and is suspect defensively and offensively.

It would be foolish to trade Swisher now. He stays. Even, if Paulie stays.

I just have a feeling that Anderson stays as much as they disdain some parts of his game. If he could just get his OBP around .330 he could be a very valuable player.

Logan might bring something decent in return.

MacDougal gets dumped for nothing.

Broadway goes as filler in a trade.

They like Uribe but changes need to be made and they don't have that many options. He won't be re-signed.

Griffey? Thanks for the nostalgia. Adios.

JERRY OWENS????? PLEASE PLEASE PLEASE!!!!! I PRAY THAT I WILL NOT BE TYPING HIS NAME EVER AGAIN!!!!! PLEASE!!!!!!! KENNY,SIGN CARL LEWIS IF YOU FEEL THE URGE. SIGN GAIL DEVERS. I'M SURE SHE HAS MORE POWER.


2 THINGS THAT I HAVE LEARNED TRYING TO PREDIT KW'S MOVES
---------------------------------------------------------------

1. Kenny will TRY to make most of the moves that are obvious to us. Unfortunately, he can't always make players, agents, other GM's etc. go along with our/his plans and wishes. He shouldn't be faulted for that.

2. Kenny will come up with players and deals that none of us have even suspected. See Ramirez, Quentin, Danks, Floyd, Thornton etc. This is the fun part! I'm so looking forward to seeing how creative he is this offseason.

And, I PROMISE, not to criticize his attempts! I truly do. He's proven himself to me and he gets all benefit of the doubt from me from now on. I vow not to criticize him again!

Of course, I vowed to lose 30 pounds this year,too.
Broadway will not be let go as filler. He sucks, but there's plenty of other redundant pitching options that are "filler."

NLaloosh
10-07-2008, 10:15 AM
They did win the Central, but were arguably the most flawed team to get in. I'm happy we got in, but there's room for improvement, and Tampa showed us that in this series.

You're pretty much right. However, you have to admit that if Quentin, Contreras and Crede were healthy, the Sox probably would've won that series and MAYBE the whole thing.

The Sox are not that far off. I mean CQ is an MVP caliber player that they were missing. And, the pitching staff was on fumes. They don't need a lot of changes.

NLaloosh
10-07-2008, 10:17 AM
Broadway will not be let go as filler. He sucks, but there's plenty of other redundant pitching options that are "filler."

Out of that whole post, that's all that you could nitpick? You crack me up.

Craig Grebeck
10-07-2008, 10:21 AM
Out of that whole post, that's all that you could nitpick? You crack me up.
No, there's a ton more. I just don't have the patience to dissect the rampant idiocy.

Maybe later though.

soxfan43
10-07-2008, 10:24 AM
As m uch as Javy pissed us all off this year, he'll most likely be back. Let Broadway, Poreda and Richard fight it out for that 5th spot. That's not a bad rotation right there, but if an upgrade presents itself, go for it. but it is not the #1 need. As easy as it is to say trade paulie, thome, swish, etc, it's not gonna happen. If the sox pay enough of konerko's salary, they might move him but thome is untradeable. The most likely option to get a good return back is to move dye. I love the dude, but this team needs to get faster. Move swish to RF and that leaves CF, SS/2b and 3b as areas to add speed defense. I'm pretty sure with 3 open spots like that, kenny will make something happen.

asindc
10-07-2008, 10:36 AM
Your post makes no sense. We are not "stuck with" Dye. We can move him if need be -- considering he probably won't hit like this again and his defense is horrible. Which would open the door for...Swisher in RF!

Too simple.

I think if Dye is traded or moved to another position, then TCQ will be our RF, with Swish in LF.

ChiSoxFan81
10-07-2008, 10:38 AM
MIKE MACDOUGAL
:angry::angry::angry::angry::angry::angry::angry:: angry::angry::angry::angry:

sox1970
10-07-2008, 10:42 AM
Gone off the 40-man:

Broadway, Day, Logan, MacDougal, H Ramirez, Sisco, Hall, Phillips, Cabrera, Crede, Fields, Anderson, Griffey, Owens, Swisher.

Craig Grebeck
10-07-2008, 10:46 AM
WILL BE GONE:

Konerko
Uribe
Cabrera
Hall
Crede
Griffey
Owens
Fields
Broadway
MacDougal
Logan

WILL STAY:

Dye
A.J.
Thome
Anderson
Wise
Swisher
Ramirez
Getz
Quentin
Buehrle
Danks
Floyd
Vazquez
Contreras
Linebrink
Jenks
Dotel
Russell
Wassermann
Thornton
Richard
Carrasco

I predict that Paulie waives his NTC and he gets moved probably to the Angels.

They don't trade Dye because they won't get offered enough for him.

Thome is untradeable.

Vazquez probably stays because he's still a good deal unless somebody really makes a nice offer for him.

Fields has to be gone because they can't afford any more of his type on this team and is suspect defensively and offensively.

It would be foolish to trade Swisher now. He stays. Even, if Paulie stays.

I just have a feeling that Anderson stays as much as they disdain some parts of his game. If he could just get his OBP around .330 he could be a very valuable player.

Logan might bring something decent in return.

MacDougal gets dumped for nothing.

Broadway goes as filler in a trade.

They like Uribe but changes need to be made and they don't have that many options. He won't be re-signed.

Griffey? Thanks for the nostalgia. Adios.

JERRY OWENS????? PLEASE PLEASE PLEASE!!!!! I PRAY THAT I WILL NOT BE TYPING HIS NAME EVER AGAIN!!!!! PLEASE!!!!!!! KENNY,SIGN CARL LEWIS IF YOU FEEL THE URGE. SIGN GAIL DEVERS. I'M SURE SHE HAS MORE POWER.


2 THINGS THAT I HAVE LEARNED TRYING TO PREDIT KW'S MOVES
---------------------------------------------------------------

1. Kenny will TRY to make most of the moves that are obvious to us. Unfortunately, he can't always make players, agents, other GM's etc. go along with our/his plans and wishes. He shouldn't be faulted for that.

2. Kenny will come up with players and deals that none of us have even suspected. See Ramirez, Quentin, Danks, Floyd, Thornton etc. This is the fun part! I'm so looking forward to seeing how creative he is this offseason.

And, I PROMISE, not to criticize his attempts! I truly do. He's proven himself to me and he gets all benefit of the doubt from me from now on. I vow not to criticize him again!

Of course, I vowed to lose 30 pounds this year,too.
Let's go point by point:

-Konerko "WILL BE GONE"
Not really buying it. There are no teams on the market that will express interest in giving us equal value for PK. It's well established that he has more value to us next season than he would on the market. He's due for a JD like bounce-back (JD had a similarly fantastic second half of 2007).
-Uribe "WILL BE GONE"
Not really sure why we're so willing to ditch one of the best bench players in the AL. We can work out a deal.
-Owens, Fields "WILL BE GONE"
Where are they going to go? Neither has any trade value (Owens doesn't possess any actual value, except as a pinch runner) and they're not costing us anything. Fields deserves the opportunity to prove himself after his surgery. There's nothing wrong with keeping guys for the sake of depth.
-Broadway, Logan "WILL BE GONE"
Why are these guys leaving? Logan can still be a quality LOOGY and is fairly young. Do we want to be burned on Logan like the Twins were on Balfour? Broadway is also young and his value has never, ever been lower. Try to teach him a new pitch, don't just trade him for the sake of trading him.

Honestly, I don't even know what you mean by "will" be gone. Gone from what? The 25 man roster or organization?

They don't trade Dye because they won't get offered enough for him.

This is just sheer lunacy. We trade Konerko -- which somehow involves a team that has a very good 1B prospect, but can't find a trading partner for one of the better hitting OF in the game (with a reasonable contract, mind you).

oeo
10-07-2008, 10:46 AM
MIKE MACDOUGAL
:angry::angry::angry::angry::angry::angry::angry:: angry::angry::angry::angry:

Wow. You act like Mike MacDougal killed our season.

Craig Grebeck
10-07-2008, 10:47 AM
Gone off the 40-man:

Broadway, Day, Logan, MacDougal, H Ramirez, Sisco, Hall, Phillips, Cabrera, Crede, Fields, Anderson, Griffey, Swisher.
I don't even think this is possible. Where are all these guys going?

TomBradley72
10-07-2008, 10:49 AM
Your post makes no sense. We are not "stuck with" Dye. We can move him if need be -- considering he probably won't hit like this again and his defense is horrible. Which would open the door for...Swisher in RF!

Too simple.

So who exactly is going to take Jermaine Dye and his salary since "he won't hit like this again and his defense is horrible"?

I'm not that anxious to open any door to Nick Swisher or ANY player who hits .191 w/a .298 OBP after the All Star break with 59 K's in 178 ABs.
His career norms are .240's w/low 20's HRs and a lot of strikeouts (along with alot of walks that increase his OBP). He's an OK player...but if he's a starter on the White Sox...we're not very good.

voodoochile
10-07-2008, 10:50 AM
Swish will only go if they can package him to land a starting CF/2B/3B who can leadoff.

Fields will probably be the starting 3B otherwise with Uribe as the backup plan.

I think they are only looking for two slots to fill - Cf and 2B. They might even let Uribe walk and hope Getz can be the backup IF, but he can't give the Sox the stability Uribe can if Fields struggles.

I wonder if they bring back Wise or if some other team is willing to sign him to be a starting corner OF. He's not going to play CF for the Sox and he's not going to supplant TCQ or Dye.

sox1970
10-07-2008, 10:51 AM
I don't even think this is possible. Where are all these guys going?

I don't care. I forgot Owens too.

I think Swisher may stay, but that's only if Konerko or Dye get traded.

ChiSoxFan81
10-07-2008, 10:54 AM
Wow. You act like Mike MacDougal killed our season.

Well, my feelings on that guy harken back to last year. I was at the Baltimore game in April when he last pitched before being sent to the minors. Right on cue, he helped turn a 1 run deficit into a 4 run deficit in the top of the 9th. I never wanted to see that guy again. Please give him back to the Royals for a side of rice pilaf.

voodoochile
10-07-2008, 10:54 AM
Gone off the 40-man:

Broadway, Day, Logan, MacDougal, H Ramirez, Sisco, Hall, Phillips, Cabrera, Crede, Fields, Anderson, Griffey, Owens, Swisher.

I bolded the guys who will only be gone if they get moved in trades. No way the Sox can turn over 15 people from their 40 man roster.

The final 4 bolded players will all be given chances to make the ML roster out of ST and I wouldn't be surprised to see Swish back in CF and Fields starting at 3B if they can't make a trade to land one of those positions that is.

hi im skot
10-07-2008, 11:00 AM
I think if Dye is traded or moved to another position, then TCQ will be our RF, with Swish in LF.

Not a chance.

Is there any chance Cabrera stays? I'm not necessarily advocating it, just curious.

chisox77
10-07-2008, 11:10 AM
Swisher will come back strong in 2009 and have a very good season. I still think he's a good player. And I still think he will have some pretty good years, with the White Sox.


:cool:

southside rocks
10-07-2008, 11:14 AM
Well they took a shot at OBP and that didn't work to well did it? (I'm looking at you Nick...)

Contact AND speed, I certainly agree with.

Paging Mr. Figgins, paging Mr. Cano, paging Mr. Roberts, paging Mr. Hudson.

I'll take any two please.

Lip


I don't get the love for Robinson Cano. Yes, he's a lifetime .300 hitter, but in a 4-year career he's swiped 12 bases and been caught stealing 14 times. This will help the Sox how?

Just curious, I don't recall reading or hearing anyone at the Sox express a desire to have Cano on the team, or particularly admire his style of play.

Craig Grebeck
10-07-2008, 11:24 AM
I don't care. I forgot Owens too.

I think Swisher may stay, but that's only if Konerko or Dye get traded.
Why on earth are we going to move him at his lowest value? His salary is cheap and he can bounce back.

NLaloosh
10-07-2008, 11:28 AM
I'm pretty sure that Ozzie would quit if Fields plays 3b next year with Thome and Konerko both being back.

Ozzie has made it very clear that he does not want more slow, defensively challenged, high strikeout power hitters.

Craig Grebeck
10-07-2008, 11:29 AM
I'm pretty sure that Ozzie would quit if Fields plays 3b next year with Thome and Konerko both being back.

Ozzie has made it very clear that he does not want more slow, defensively challenged, high strikeout power hitters.
Fields doesn't have to start at 3B if he's here. There are other options.

palehozenychicty
10-07-2008, 11:39 AM
You're pretty much right. However, you have to admit that if Quentin, Contreras and Crede were healthy, the Sox probably would've won that series and MAYBE the whole thing.

The Sox are not that far off. I mean CQ is an MVP caliber player that they were missing. And, the pitching staff was on fumes. They don't need a lot of changes.


I think out of those three, only Quentin may have made a difference. Contreras and Crede were veteran players that have had big moments before, but they aren't consistent enough to be missed that much. I can't wait for them to be gone.

The team isn't that far away, but their lack of speed and athleticism killed them all season, and it did them in against Tampa. They had opportunities in the first two games, as all season, but they didn't have the right personnel to take advantage. When they merely needed contact, they had popups and strikeouts.

You can't win consistently when you need three/four hits to score a run. That style of ball rarely, if ever, works.

Anyhow, they fought hard and didn't quit, unlike some other team, but just came up short. They have a foundation now with Carlos, Gavin, John, Alexei, and maybe Richard in the pen or long relief. Their pen is in better shape than the other division contenders right now as well, but that fluctuates yearly. Who knows if Linebrink will be that good again for a half?

If Anderson could only shorten that swing, then we have a CF. I'd try to trade him just so that he can have a fresh breath of air. Then see if you can get someone like McLouth or Melky on the cheap. Brett Gardner would be a really nice fit for this team. He has a good arm, great speed, and is an excellent bunter. Also, Fire Walker! He's awful.

jabrch
10-07-2008, 11:45 AM
I don't get the love for Robinson Cano. Yes, he's a lifetime .300 hitter, but in a 4-year career he's swiped 12 bases and been caught stealing 14 times. This will help the Sox how?

Just curious, I don't recall reading or hearing anyone at the Sox express a desire to have Cano on the team, or particularly admire his style of play.

Do you really not see how a guy who, in his first four years, has hit over .297 3 times, OBPd over .350 twice, and SLGd over .485 twice would help us?

Cano had a bad year this year. if the Yanks want to sell low, I'd love to buy. This guy could hit #2 and allow AJ to move back to 6 or 7 or he could hit in the bottom of the order and be a significant improvement over what we have this year.

oeo
10-07-2008, 11:47 AM
I think out of those three, only Quentin may have made a difference. Contreras and Crede were veteran players that have had big moments before, but they aren't consistent enough to be missed that much. I can't wait for them to be gone.

I don't understand how you can discount missing Contreras. Just think about it: we don't have to start Richard/Broadway, we can put both in the pen in September, and we don't have to pitch every other guy in the rotation on short rest in the final two weeks. Then we get to the postseason, and Javy doesn't have to start a single game.

A healthy Contreras would have changed the final month quite a bit. We would have won more than 89 games and we could set up our rotation for the playoffs.

spiffie
10-07-2008, 11:48 AM
Do you really not see how a guy who, in his first four years, has hit over .297 3 times, OBPd over .350 twice, and SLGd over .485 twice would help us?

Cano had a bad year this year. if the Yanks want to sell low, I'd love to buy. This guy could hit #2 and allow AJ to move back to 6 or 7 or he could hit in the bottom of the order and be a significant improvement over what we have this year.
This team needs speed and people who can do the little things. You can keep all your OBPs and SLGs and NARGFLOOPs and whatevers that look great on a spreadsheet. I want someone who is going to lay down a sac bunt, hit the opposite way, and steal 30-50 bases at least. Without some more speed they will have trouble being able to compete with the top teams on a day to day basis.

Robinson Cano will not help this team win nearly as much as someone who can come in and do the little things, even if that person doesn't have nice big gaudy numbers to impress some "fans" who like that sort of thing.

jabrch
10-07-2008, 11:49 AM
So who exactly is going to take Jermaine Dye and his salary since "he won't hit like this again and his defense is horrible"?

About 30 teams would happily take him if we are foolish enough to sell low on a guy who just hit .291/.344/.541. I'm assuming Williams isn't that dumb.

NoNeckEra
10-07-2008, 11:50 AM
He's due for a JD like bounce-back (JD had a similarly fantastic second half of 2007).

Why wouldn't you say that Griffey is due for a "bounce-back" year too?
Because everyone knows he's washed up.
Konerko is the most unathletic non-catcher in the league.
Konerko's best possible comeback year still doesn't fit with this club's makeup. He's also lost it in the field.
Agree to pay some of his salary in a deal and move on.

southside rocks
10-07-2008, 11:53 AM
Do you really not see how a guy who, in his first four years, has hit over .297 3 times, OBPd over .350 twice, and SLGd over .485 twice would help us?

Cano had a bad year this year. if the Yanks want to sell low, I'd love to buy. This guy could hit #2 and allow AJ to move back to 6 or 7 or he could hit in the bottom of the order and be a significant improvement over what we have this year.


No no, sorry, I should have said that I don't see how he brings speed to the club, if the priority is to get what running game they can into the scheme of things.

His OBP and SLG look a lot like Swisher's, but his lifetime BA is higher; I just am not aware that he's a speedster on the order of Figgins or some of the others mentioned. Is he? I don't know, I'm asking, not challenging.

Figgins and Roberts are definitely base-stealers and speed threats; Hudson might be -- at least he's stolen more than he's been CS -- but Cano doesn't appear to be. Hence my question.

Thome25
10-07-2008, 11:58 AM
This team needs speed and people who can do the little things. You can keep all your OBPs and SLGs and NARGFLOOPs and whatevers that look great on a spreadsheet. I want someone who is going to lay down a sac bunt, hit the opposite way, and steal 30-50 bases at least. Without some more speed they will have trouble being able to compete with the top teams on a day to day basis.

Robinson Cano will not help this team win nearly as much as someone who can come in and do the little things, even if that person doesn't have nice big gaudy numbers to impress some "fans" who like that sort of thing.

In other words you're looking for a Curtis Granderson or a Grady Sizemore-type of guy? I'm all for it but, there isn't too many of them out there. The ones who are out there likely aren't available.

Leadoff guys who do the little things, hit for average, and steal bases are about as hard to find as relief pitching these days. I.E. every team wants one but there isn't enough to go around. Otherwise every team in the league would gladly have a guy or two like that on their club.

As a side note, we might be more likely to pry Roberts from the O's than Figgins from the Angels. I'd personally rather have Figgins.....no roiders for me thank you very much.

jabrch
10-07-2008, 12:10 PM
No no, sorry, I should have said that I don't see how he brings speed to the club, if the priority is to get what running game they can into the scheme of things.

Figgins and Roberts are definitely base-stealers and speed threats; Hudson might be -- at least he's stolen more than he's been CS -- but Cano doesn't appear to be. Hence my question.

I agree - he doesn't bring speed to the team. But speed alone doesn't cure all ills. Give me a guy who can hit - a guy who will get on base, and a guy who will hit for a little bit of power, and I think you can work from there. Sure - speed is great. I'd love to have a prototypical leadoff hitter (Furcal) and a guy hitting #9 who can run too. But if my choice is a fast guy who can't hit, and a guy who can hit, but doesn't run, I'll take the hitter.

And if Figgins is part of the question, or Hudson at 14mm or so is part of the question, then I don't like it much.

btrain929
10-07-2008, 12:19 PM
About 30 teams would happily take him if we are foolish enough to sell low on a guy who just hit .291/.344/.541. I'm assuming Williams isn't that dumb.

We wouldn't be selling low on him. I think he can bring us a pretty decent haul in return.

khan
10-07-2008, 12:21 PM
And if Figgins is part of the question, or Hudson at 14mm or so is part of the question, then I don't like it much.

What make you believe that Hudson will be able to command $14M? My understanding is that he [being a 2nd baseman] would come in for much less than that.

Furcal's asking price, as a Shortstop, I could envision a ~$14M/yr contract.

southside rocks
10-07-2008, 12:22 PM
I agree - he doesn't bring speed to the team. But speed alone doesn't cure all ills. Give me a guy who can hit - a guy who will get on base, and a guy who will hit for a little bit of power, and I think you can work from there. Sure - speed is great. I'd love to have a prototypical leadoff hitter (Furcal) and a guy hitting #9 who can run too. But if my choice is a fast guy who can't hit, and a guy who can hit, but doesn't run, I'll take the hitter.

And if Figgins is part of the question, or Hudson at 14mm or so is part of the question, then I don't like it much.

I'm *very* curious to see how KW manages to address the leadoff spot over the winter. Good leadoff men are at a premium, but this year having to 'make do' really did hurt the Sox, IMO.

I've never shared the craving for Figgins, but I wouldn't boo him if he turned up in black and white next year. :tongue: Is he a FA this year?

Jurr
10-07-2008, 12:27 PM
I think out of those three, only Quentin may have made a difference. Contreras and Crede were veteran players that have had big moments before, but they aren't consistent enough to be missed that much. I can't wait for them to be gone.

The team isn't that far away, but their lack of speed and athleticism killed them all season, and it did them in against Tampa. They had opportunities in the first two games, as all season, but they didn't have the right personnel to take advantage. When they merely needed contact, they had popups and strikeouts.

You can't win consistently when you need three/four hits to score a run. That style of ball rarely, if ever, works.

Anyhow, they fought hard and didn't quit, unlike some other team, but just came up short. They have a foundation now with Carlos, Gavin, John, Alexei, and maybe Richard in the pen or long relief. Their pen is in better shape than the other division contenders right now as well, but that fluctuates yearly. Who knows if Linebrink will be that good again for a half?

If Anderson could only shorten that swing, then we have a CF. I'd try to trade him just so that he can have a fresh breath of air. Then see if you can get someone like McLouth or Melky on the cheap. Brett Gardner would be a really nice fit for this team. He has a good arm, great speed, and is an excellent bunter. Also, Fire Walker! He's awful.
Well said. I may be crazy, but Anderson still intruigues the crap out of me. If we all remember, Crede came into the league and had a great start as a September callup, then became quite the goat for a while because of his very LOOOOONG swing. Rowand was much the same way, which is why in 2003 Everett was playing CF. Rowand really didn't start to come along until '04. Crede didn't become the Crede we know until about September of '05.

I believe that Anderson may one day turn the switch on. Maybe I'm being too optimistic, but we've seen it before.

Lip Man 1
10-07-2008, 12:40 PM
This and That:

1. Mohoney - Lowe's agent is Scott Boras. End of discussion.

2. Southside - It appears Kenny Williams wants him. Nuff said? Last week on XM one of the Yankee beat writers were on and said Kenny tried to get him at the deadline and will be going hard after him this off season.

And for the 800th time, Figgins is NOT a free agent, the Angels have the option. HOWEVER sources are saying he has worn out his welcome in L.A. with his teammates and all members of the organization except for Scioscia.

Lip

RockyMtnSoxFan
10-07-2008, 12:40 PM
I think out of those three, only Quentin may have made a difference. Contreras and Crede were veteran players that have had big moments before, but they aren't consistent enough to be missed that much. I can't wait for them to be gone.

The team isn't that far away, but their lack of speed and athleticism killed them all season, and it did them in against Tampa. They had opportunities in the first two games, as all season, but they didn't have the right personnel to take advantage. When they merely needed contact, they had popups and strikeouts.

You can't win consistently when you need three/four hits to score a run. That style of ball rarely, if ever, works.

Anyhow, they fought hard and didn't quit, unlike some other team, but just came up short. They have a foundation now with Carlos, Gavin, John, Alexei, and maybe Richard in the pen or long relief. Their pen is in better shape than the other division contenders right now as well, but that fluctuates yearly. Who knows if Linebrink will be that good again for a half?

If Anderson could only shorten that swing, then we have a CF. I'd try to trade him just so that he can have a fresh breath of air. Then see if you can get someone like McLouth or Melky on the cheap. Brett Gardner would be a really nice fit for this team. He has a good arm, great speed, and is an excellent bunter. Also, Fire Walker! He's awful.

I agree with almost everything here. Would Crede really have been any different than Swisher/Thome/Griffey/etc? He'd have been swinging for the fences and popping up with the rest of them. Contreras had a good month (May), but other than that he was 2007 Contreras. He can't be counted on.

I think the rebuilding should focus on the things which (IMO) brought us a championship three years ago: pitching, defense, and consistent hitting. I think that with whatever money/resources Kenny has, he should focus on acquiring a true No. 1 starter. Danks, Floyd, and Buehrle are all good, but they aren't the dominant pitchers that can almost guarantee you two wins in a playoff series. More help for the bullpen would be nice too. Next, focus on position players that have good defense and speed, but don't put up the kind of power stats that bring big contracts. Here you can get quality without sacrificing pitching, which I think is the most important. I think McClouth might be that type of guy. Figgins would be nice, but I think he would cost too much in terms of what we would have to give up. We already have plenty of power hitters in Thome, Konerko, Dye, and Quentin.

The other thing that I think has to change is the overall offensive philosophy. I could be wrong, but all the guys on this club seem to be trying to be the hero. It's nice that they are indeed trying very hard, but the focus has been on home runs, which are the most individual offensive accomplishment in the game. Guys are trying to win it with one swing of the bat, rather than believe in their teammates and do little things to contribute. It seems like every player that comes here quickly becomes obsessed with home runs and forgets how to hit with two strikes or hit to the opposite field. Even Alexei seemed to be struggling at the end of the season because he was trying to pull the ball out of the park. I still blame Kenny for the Thome trade (which I believe created the "me first, homer only" atmosphere), but at this point it's irrelevant. What matters now is that this attitude has to change, and if that means Walker has to go, that should be the very first move.

Tragg
10-07-2008, 12:45 PM
2. Southside - It appears Kenny Williams wants him. Nuff said? Last week on XM one of the Yankee beat writers were on and said Kenny tried to get him at the deadline and will be going hard after him this off season.


Is it a good use of resources to trade what little we have to trade, when good 2B are available via FA? That's questionable leverage.
Trading probably means trading pitching, something we have exactly zero depth in. AT the end, there were only 3 bullpen pitchers that anyone was comfortable with (Jenks, Thornton, Richard) and only 3 starters as well.

soxinem1
10-07-2008, 12:49 PM
Keep Vazquez. Right now I'm viewing him as a #4 starter behind our big three. There aren't too many better #4s in the league. despite his performance in the big games he still puts up great numbers in that slot and eats innings.

I hate the guy as much as everyone else, and it was good to see him booed on Sunday, but you can't sell him off cheap and watch him eat 200+ for another team while striking out 200 and winning 15 games. As much as it pains me: We NEED Javy.

He does not even average 15 wins a season in his career, and has only reached that mark twice in eleven seasons. How can you assume he'll become a winner at age 32 when he still hasn't figured it out yet?

What good are 200K's a year when you give up five runs a game?

And his ERA is not respectable unless you want to compare it with Carlos Silva, Sidney Ponson, Jerrod Washburn, or some other scrub.

We need him? Please. This guy is the ultimate choke. He did decent in 2007 because the team was out of it in June. That is his history. Ozzie is right, he cannot pitch under pressure and has NEVER been consistent at anything except mediocity.

When they needed him in the last month to step it up, he instead fell down the stairs. He couldn't even get out of the fifth inning for the last month.

Not only that, when he would get leads, he would have them relinquished in less that ten minutes once he took the mound.

Same as in 2006. It was Javy who dished up the grand slam that enabled DET to put us away.

Now he is not the total reason this team didn't go further this year. Not even close.

But when you get outperformed by two young guys who were in their first full season in a big-league rotation, performed worse when another starter was lost for the season (instead of stepping it up), over-taxed an already thin bullpen, and really show no balls what-so-ever (except the ones that scream off opposing hitters bats), I'd take my chances on Paul Byrd.

At least he shows heart.

btrain929
10-07-2008, 12:50 PM
He does not even average 15 wins a season in his career.

You act like this is a very easy, common occurrance with pitchers these days.

Craig Grebeck
10-07-2008, 12:58 PM
He does not even average 15 wins a season in his career, and has only reached that mark twice in eleven seasons. How can you assume he'll become a winner at age 32 when he still hasn't figured it out yet?

What good are 200K's a year when you give up five runs a game?

And his ERA is not respectable unless you want to compare it with Carlos Silva, Sidney Ponson, Jerrod Washburn, or some other scrub.

We need him? Please. This guy is the ultimate choke. He did decent in 2007 because the team was out of it in June. That is his history. Ozzie is right, he cannot pitch under pressure and has NEVER been consistent at anything except mediocity.

When they needed him in the last month to step it up, he instead fell down the stairs. He couldn't even get out of the fifth inning for the last month.

Not only that, when he would get leads, he would have them relinquished in less that ten minutes once he took the mound.

Same as in 2006. It was Javy who dished up the grand slam that enabled DET to put us away.

Now he is not the total reason this team didn't go further this year. Not even close.

But when you get outperformed by two young guys who were in their first full season in a big-league rotation, performed worse when another starter was lost for the season (instead of stepping it up), over-taxed an already thin bullpen, and really show no balls what-so-ever (except the ones that scream off opposing hitters bats), I'd take my chances on Paul Byrd.

At least he shows heart.
Ah, wins for pitchers. What a metric.

NoNeckEra
10-07-2008, 01:00 PM
I believe that Anderson may one day turn the switch on. Maybe I'm being too optimistic, but we've seen it before.
From what we see on the ball field, Anderson has become the easiest guy to pitch to on the Sox.
How many times has he taken a called third on the inside corner and done his patented "back out of the way" move?
Enough is enough.

btrain929
10-07-2008, 01:02 PM
From what we see on the ball field, Anderson has become the easiest guy to pitch to on the Sox.
How many times has he taken a called third on the inside corner and done his patented "back out of the way" move?
Enough is enough.

Can't hit an inside fastball.
Can't hit/lay off a low and outside offspeed pitch.

Pencil him in!

Britt Burns
10-07-2008, 01:09 PM
As long as OC goes, which seems to be a foregone conclusion. His attitude and play, especially at the end of the season, were terrible.

I think the big question is if Alexei gets moved to short or if they bring a replacement for Cabrera and keep him at 2B.

soxtalker
10-07-2008, 01:34 PM
He does not even average 15 wins a season in his career, and has only reached that mark twice in eleven seasons. How can you assume he'll become a winner at age 32 when he still hasn't figured it out yet?

What good are 200K's a year when you give up five runs a game?

And his ERA is not respectable unless you want to compare it with Carlos Silva, Sidney Ponson, Jerrod Washburn, or some other scrub.

We need him? Please. This guy is the ultimate choke. He did decent in 2007 because the team was out of it in June. That is his history. Ozzie is right, he cannot pitch under pressure and has NEVER been consistent at anything except mediocity.

When they needed him in the last month to step it up, he instead fell down the stairs. He couldn't even get out of the fifth inning for the last month.

Not only that, when he would get leads, he would have them relinquished in less that ten minutes once he took the mound.

Same as in 2006. It was Javy who dished up the grand slam that enabled DET to put us away.

Now he is not the total reason this team didn't go further this year. Not even close.

But when you get outperformed by two young guys who were in their first full season in a big-league rotation, performed worse when another starter was lost for the season (instead of stepping it up), over-taxed an already thin bullpen, and really show no balls what-so-ever (except the ones that scream off opposing hitters bats), I'd take my chances on Paul Byrd.

At least he shows heart.

You've articulated the frustration that many Sox fans have with JV, but I suspect that he may look pretty good to many other teams. He eats innings and, IIRC, his SO numbers are pretty good. He may be one of the most marketable players we have. I just hope that KW can find another Freddy Garcia type of trade.

southside rocks
10-07-2008, 01:39 PM
This and That:


2. Southside - It appears Kenny Williams wants him. Nuff said? Last week on XM one of the Yankee beat writers were on and said Kenny tried to get him at the deadline and will be going hard after him this off season.

And for the 800th time, Figgins is NOT a free agent, the Angels have the option. HOWEVER sources are saying he has worn out his welcome in L.A. with his teammates and all members of the organization except for Scioscia.

Lip

Huh. Did not hear that about Cano, interesting, thanks.

Figgins sounds a bit like Orlando Cabrera, and I suspect we're going to find out in the off-season just how much of a treat OC was on this team this year. I would not want to see a repeat of that. JMO.

sox1970
10-07-2008, 01:42 PM
Why on earth are we going to move him (Swisher) at his lowest value? His salary is cheap and he can bounce back.

I think Swisher will be back after reading that Kenny Williams talked to Swisher yesterday and told him to come back next year and start over. Sounds like he doesn't want to move Swisher.

I just think Swisher needs to be in RF or 1B next year. Konerko or Dye need to be traded if Swisher stays, because it sounds like Thome is a lock to be back at DH.

kittle42
10-07-2008, 02:00 PM
Ah, wins for pitchers. What a metric.

Better than the other metric of "heart."

palehozenychicty
10-07-2008, 02:11 PM
Well said. I may be crazy, but Anderson still intruigues the crap out of me. If we all remember, Crede came into the league and had a great start as a September callup, then became quite the goat for a while because of his very LOOOOONG swing. Rowand was much the same way, which is why in 2003 Everett was playing CF. Rowand really didn't start to come along until '04. Crede didn't become the Crede we know until about September of '05.

I believe that Anderson may one day turn the switch on. Maybe I'm being too optimistic, but we've seen it before.


I think that's why management hasn't gotten rid of him either. Until the Marlins got Maybin, he would have been a great fit for them. My hunch is that they keep him for one more year. I wouldn't be surprised if he's traded in a package.

BainesHOF
10-07-2008, 02:13 PM
I hate to say this because I like him and respect his service to the organization, but it's time for Greg Walker to go. I don't blame him for everything, but our hitters' approach gradually descended into ridiculousness this season. By its end, virtually everyone was swinging for the fences every time up. I've gotten the impression that he's close with Konerko, but Konerko has been one of the biggest offenders. What happened to him taking the outside pitch to right field? He used to be a smart hitter. Now he tries to jack everything, just like everyone else. Enough already.

I said coming into this season that we were at least one person too slow in the starting lineup with Konerko, Thome, Dye and Pierzynski. At least one of the players has to go. Obviously with Pierzynski being a catcher who still produces offensively, he's the most likely in my mind to stay. That leaves the other three. Personally, I'd like to see Thome go. I don't think it should be automatic that he returns. Even though he hit lefties better this year, he's still not good against them. And Thome is the worst in clutch situations. If you can't trade Thome, I'd explore trading Dye because I think you can still get something for him given his production in 2008. It's clear that his body is slowing quickly. I love the heart he shows in right field, but he just doesn't move too well anymore. And he faded big-time in the last month. I think his body just wore out in September. If we trade Thome or Dye, I think we can afford to keep Konerko and hope he rebounds. I'd much rather take my chances with Konerko, who has been a good clutch hitter in his career, than Swisher at first base.

Cabrera has to go.

Hall has to go too. He's worthless. Let's see if we can find a good defensive catcher to spell Pierzynski a little more. We've become a joke as far as our failure to throw out basestealers. Pierzynski remains valuable with his handling of pitchers and his offense, but if we find a quality backup catcher we can rest Pierzynski a little more and cut down the number of stolen bases against us a bit. (Don Cooper has been great overall, but his inability to have his pitchers hold runners on better is embarrassing and inexcusable. Our philosophy of ignoring the problem and having the pitcher concentrate on the hitter as teams rob us blind is Little League.)

We need a new third baseman, second baseman with Ramirez moving to short, and a center fielder.

Vazquez can stay in the back of the rotation.

We desperately need more speed.

palehozenychicty
10-07-2008, 02:14 PM
I don't understand how you can discount missing Contreras. Just think about it: we don't have to start Richard/Broadway, we can put both in the pen in September, and we don't have to pitch every other guy in the rotation on short rest in the final two weeks. Then we get to the postseason, and Javy doesn't have to start a single game.

A healthy Contreras would have changed the final month quite a bit. We would have won more than 89 games and we could set up our rotation for the playoffs.



But that's the caveat: He's rarely been healthy the last two seasons. He has had only flashes of effectiveness as well.

EndemicSox
10-07-2008, 02:43 PM
Of the current pitchers on the squad?

Carrasco/Dotel/Vasquez/Sisco/Contreras may be dealt/waived, don't see much up-side in moving anyone else unless Kenny gets an unbelievable offer for Jenks/Floyd/etc... I consider Danks to be the only "untouchable" right now, with Floyd very close to that category.

Hitters?

I'm assuming Thome qualified for his 2009 pay-day, making it hard, but certainly not impossible to deal him. Not likely to see him in a different uniform next year though.

Konerko will be shopped, but again, his age/contract makes a move difficult.

Toby Hall may find a new home in '09.

I expect Fields to be on the market, but it's probably in the Sox best interests to see if '07/08 was a fluke, same can be said for Owens and Anderson. I think Anderson has the most perceived value to other GM's, and I believe Kenny still has some hopes for him, as do I.

Uribe cerainly has value to other teams, but I love him as a back-up, and I think he wants to stick around.

Griffey is almost a lock to retire/be moved/waived.

Swish will get a chance to show '08 was a fluke, and I think he rebounds quite nicely if he puts in the work this off-season.

-------

Although OBP is a prized commodity nowadays, and the competition for such a player is always difficult, I think Kenny makes an acquisition that helps in this category. I also look for him to sign a few older SP that are looking to bounce back from a bad '05=08. As long as he hits on one, and Kenny usually does, I expect 90 wins next season. It would also be nice if Beckham has what it takes to become a "fast-track" player, as Williams needs him sooner rather than later.

SOXBOY
10-07-2008, 02:53 PM
I would like to see Blake at third next year.

Law11
10-07-2008, 02:55 PM
What bothered me was KW after yesterday saying he liked how his BPen is setup for next year. He cant be serious.

Thats where my attention would go. All we heard was how in todays game a strong bullpen is what you win with.
Outside of Matt and Bobby, Lienbrink and Dotel, no one impresses me in that pen.
Ramirez, MCD, Logan, Wasserman cannot be in the pen next year.
Easier said than done of course but that BP cost us more than a few games this year.
Id have Richard as my 5th starter next year but that does make it 3 lefties in the rotation for what its worth.
---

Anyone on this team with the exception of Alexi, TCQ, Danks, Floyd, MB, Thornton, & Jenks can be had if the price was right at both ends.

When are the winter meetings?

MrKinsella
10-07-2008, 03:04 PM
He's never hit .275 once in the majors. He's never hit 27 HRs in a season. He's never has an OBP or .400.

I don't think his problem was motivation this year. He's a career .244 hitter who stikes out ~130X/year. Yes he draws walks which drives up his OBP. I just don't think the overall equation is what we need on the 2009 roster.

You know he did hit 35 home runs in 06 at the MacAfee which is a tough home run park, not to mention he's better at first than Pauley. In a year or two when JD or Pauley are the DH he will play first or RF. Plus he gets on base and brings a lot of passion. Great guy if they have other contact hitters/runners at CF 2nd, 3rd, or short.

BBaum21
10-07-2008, 03:26 PM
When are the winter meetings?

Dec. 8-11 in Las Vegas.

oeo
10-07-2008, 03:29 PM
Figgins sounds a bit like Orlando Cabrera, and I suspect we're going to find out in the off-season just how much of a treat OC was on this team this year. I would not want to see a repeat of that. JMO.

Or he could be like AJ in San Francisco. Maybe he just doesn't fit in well there.

There is the possibility that he's just a jackass, but I'll give him the benefit of the doubt if he comes here.

Outside of Matt and Bobby, Lienbrink and Dotel, no one impresses me in that pen.

Sounds like you agree with Kenny; that's more than half of the bullpen. We also have in-house options. It will be interesting to see how Russell develops, then there's Link, Rodriguez, and Texeira.

soxinem1
10-07-2008, 03:31 PM
I would like to see Blake at third next year.

One of those under the radar moves.

But honestly, what does he do that Josh Fields cannot? Blake is not a good defensive 3B, K's a lot, and hits a lot of solo HR's.

Fields can do that for 400K instead of $6 million.

russ99
10-07-2008, 03:43 PM
What bothered me was KW after yesterday saying he liked how his BPen is setup for next year. He cant be serious.

Thats where my attention would go. All we heard was how in todays game a strong bullpen is what you win with.
Outside of Matt and Bobby, Lienbrink and Dotel, no one impresses me in that pen.

Most major league teams would kill for 4 solid guys in the pen.

What I think Kenny means not spending for overpriced old relievers, which is outside of bringing in a few inexpensive 6th inning guys, plus I think Russell could play a bigger role next year, or at least take over for Wassermann who the league has seemed to have figured out. Carrasco is a decent long man too...

Also, Richard has really impressed me. If we can solidify the starting spots he could easily be a 7th inning reliever.

oeo
10-07-2008, 03:45 PM
But that's the caveat: He's rarely been healthy the last two seasons. He has had only flashes of effectiveness as well.

:?:

The whole argument is about him being healthy vs. not being healthy.

palehozenychicty
10-07-2008, 04:05 PM
:?:

The whole argument is about him being healthy vs. not being healthy.


I see your point that they would not have had to use a four-man rotation down the stretch if Contreras was healthy. But was the Count going to be effective? That is a giant leap of faith, as he has only been great in halves of a season throughout his major league career.

But that's the catch. He really hasn't been that effective nor healthy since 2006. I just feel that his value is being overestimated, and he isn't good enough to cover the teams' deficiencies, which are lack of speed, athleticism, and bat control on the field.

The starters, overall, are pretty good, although if we could somehow get a true ace, they'd be even better. That's equivalent to playing the Lotto, though.

I hope that clarifies my prior point about the Count.

soxtalker
10-07-2008, 05:06 PM
What bothered me was KW after yesterday saying he liked how his BPen is setup for next year. He cant be serious.

Thats where my attention would go. All we heard was how in todays game a strong bullpen is what you win with.
Outside of Matt and Bobby, Lienbrink and Dotel, no one impresses me in that pen.
Ramirez, MCD, Logan, Wasserman cannot be in the pen next year.
Easier said than done of course but that BP cost us more than a few games this year.
Id have Richard as my 5th starter next year but that does make it 3 lefties in the rotation for what its worth.
---

Anyone on this team with the exception of Alexi, TCQ, Danks, Floyd, MB, Thornton, & Jenks can be had if the price was right at both ends.

When are the winter meetings?

It would be interesting to know if KW was serious or if he was just presenting his poker face to potential trading partners. I could see either. If you'd asked most fans a year ago about Floyd, we'd have had little confidence.

Lip Man 1
10-07-2008, 06:17 PM
Law 11:

Four solid bullpen guys is more then many teams have but given how often Ozzie uses his bullpen they need to get a 5th reliable arm for it.

Lip

SOXandILLINI
10-07-2008, 08:20 PM
What a stinking pile of **** this post was.

Take away Evan Longoria and replace him with Terry Tiffee and we'll see how this series turns out.*

*for clarity's sake, Evan Longoria = Carlos Quentin/DeWayne Wise = Terry Tiffee
Stinking pile? He's spot on. The Rays play baseball, we play home run derby. Thank God at times we play it well, but over the long haul you win playing baseball. We are much too slow and old, plodding from base to base. I was waiting for someone to finally say dump Pk, it took over a page, but finally happened. How many more 1/4 productive incredibly slow seasons can we watch?

oeo
10-07-2008, 08:26 PM
I see your point that they would not have had to use a four-man rotation down the stretch if Contreras was healthy. But was the Count going to be effective? That is a giant leap of faith, as he has only been great in halves of a season throughout his major league career.

But that's the catch. He really hasn't been that effective nor healthy since 2006. I just feel that his value is being overestimated, and he isn't good enough to cover the teams' deficiencies, which are lack of speed, athleticism, and bat control on the field.

The starters, overall, are pretty good, although if we could somehow get a true ace, they'd be even better. That's equivalent to playing the Lotto, though.

I hope that clarifies my prior point about the Count.

He was pretty effective when healthy early in the year. In fact, he was our bonafide ace through May. He looked good in his start back against Boston, too.

I guess we'll have to agree to disagree because I think you're underestimating the kind of impact he would have on the team.

Brian26
10-07-2008, 08:35 PM
Konerko will be shopped, but again, his age/contract makes a move difficult.

Do most people realize that Konerko is *younger* than Derrek Lee?

JB98
10-07-2008, 08:38 PM
Do most people realize that Konerko is *younger* than Derrek Lee?

No, they don't. Most people are also oblivious to the fact that Konerko hit more home runs than Derrek Lee this year.

TheOldRoman
10-07-2008, 08:48 PM
Not a chance.:?: I am curious why you would say that. Quentin is a right fielder. He has played RF his entire career until this year. I don't think he was every fully comfortable in left, but he was probably better than average. He is a plus RF. Dye should have been moved to left this year. If Dye isn't on the team, Quentin will be the right fielder.

SOXandILLINI
10-07-2008, 08:52 PM
No, they don't. Most people are also oblivious to the fact that Konerko hit more home runs than Derrek Lee this year.
So, are you then saying you wouldn't trade PK for DL straight up? If you are, please become the GM of the north side gaggers.

JB98
10-07-2008, 08:58 PM
So, are you then saying you wouldn't trade PK for DL straight up? If you are, please become the GM of the north side gaggers.

No, that's not what I'm saying at all.

SOXandILLINI
10-07-2008, 08:59 PM
No, they don't. Most people are also oblivious to the fact that Konerko hit more home runs than Derrek Lee this year.
And no one is happier than me that DL had a substandard year, hit into a ton of DPs, mostly because he hit rockets right at people, but whatever, our guy rolls into 5 hop DPs cus of the piano he's toting around. He has been horrible for the better part of 3 seasons. Thank you for the 05 slam, and other things, time to go.

hi im skot
10-07-2008, 09:06 PM
:?: I am curious why you would say that. Quentin is a right fielder. He has played RF his entire career until this year. I don't think he was every fully comfortable in left, but he was probably better than average. He is a plus RF. Dye should have been moved to left this year. If Dye isn't on the team, Quentin will be the right fielder.

Fair post.

I just don't think there's any chance he's moved. He's not exactly smooth in the outfield, and I'd prefer that our weakest outfielder stays in left field, a position that doesn't typically require strong defense.

Just my opinion. I think I inadvertently came off as a jerk in response to your original post...sorry 'bout that.

oeo
10-07-2008, 09:09 PM
Fair post.

I just don't think there's any chance he's moved. He's not exactly smooth in the outfield, and I'd prefer that our weakest outfielder stays in left field, a position that doesn't typically require strong defense.

Just my opinion. I think I inadvertently came off as a jerk in response to your original post...sorry 'bout that.

I agree he didn't look 'smooth' this year, but it could have been because he didn't feel 100% confident in LF. He is a right fielder, and all reports said he was a very good defender before coming here.

SOXandILLINI
10-07-2008, 09:18 PM
I agree he didn't look 'smooth' this year, but it could have been because he didn't feel 100% confident in LF. He is a right fielder, and all reports said he was a very good defender before coming here.
This all fits in to my move PK scenario. JD getting up in age but still productive, if you can't get real value for him, could play 1st without too much of a problem, imo, freeing CQ to move to right. We still need guys who can hit for average and run, just wish I knew where they were gonna come from. I really hope the kid from Georgia turns out to be the real deal, cus that expands our options considerably.

btrain929
10-07-2008, 09:21 PM
No, they don't. Most people are also oblivious to the fact that Konerko hit more home runs than Derrek Lee this year.

:rolleyes:

Way to pick the one stat Konerko did better in. Lee did better in RBI's, OBP, SLG, OPS, doesn't clog the bases, and is clearly a better defender. I don't know Lee's contract, but if all things were equal, I'd take Lee over Konerko in a heartbeat. And I HATE the Cubs.

JB98
10-07-2008, 09:28 PM
:rolleyes:

Way to pick the one stat Konerko did better in. Lee did better in RBI's, OBP, SLG, OPS, doesn't clog the bases, and is clearly a better defender. I don't know Lee's contract, but if all things were equal, I'd take Lee over Konerko in a heartbeat. And I HATE the Cubs.

Lee is in decline. So is Konerko.

Who cares?

btrain929
10-07-2008, 09:38 PM
Lee is in decline. So is Konerko.

Who cares?

Well your post made it seem like because Konerko had more homers than Lee, then Konerko > Lee, which flat out isn't true.

TheOldRoman
10-07-2008, 09:40 PM
Fair post.

I just don't think there's any chance he's moved. He's not exactly smooth in the outfield, and I'd prefer that our weakest outfielder stays in left field, a position that doesn't typically require strong defense.

Just my opinion. I think I inadvertently came off as a jerk in response to your original post...sorry 'bout that.Oh, no problem. I wasn't the original poster anyway. While Quentin wasn't incredible in left, he more than held his own. He has a much better arm than Swisher, and is more suited to play RF. At the very least, Carlos will be a giant defensive upgrade over the 2008/2009 version of Dye.

EuroSox35
10-07-2008, 09:50 PM
My disappointment is that Walker will probably return. CSN said that Ozzie's one demand for next year is that all his coaches return next year.

Good riddance Orlando Cabrera. You provided some hits, but you are by far, the dumbest baseball player I have ever seen. Especially as a baserunner. And how in the hell did you win those gold gloves? Adios

JB98
10-07-2008, 09:50 PM
Well your post made it seem like because Konerko had more homers than Lee, then Konerko > Lee, which flat out isn't true.

That was your inference.

CWSpalehoseCWS
10-07-2008, 10:19 PM
Keep Vazquez. Right now I'm viewing him as a #4 starter behind our big three. There aren't too many better #4s in the league. despite his performance in the big games he still puts up great numbers in that slot and eats innings.

I hate the guy as much as everyone else, and it was good to see him booed on Sunday, but you can't sell him off cheap and watch him eat 200+ for another team while striking out 200 and winning 15 games. As much as it pains me: We NEED Javy.

Completely agree. I'd rather have Vazquez than BOTH Richard and Broadway in the rotation. Richard was great out of the pen and way better than Logan and H. Ramirez, and Broadway just doesn't seem to have it. Vazquez is a great #4/5 pitcher for the rotation.

A. Cavatica
10-08-2008, 12:07 AM
No way the Sox can turn over 15 people from their 40 man roster.

Players already gone from the 2007 40-man (http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/2007_Chicago_White_Sox_season#Current_roster) (counting DL):

Garland, Bukvich, Myers, Phillips, Cintron, Richar, Erstad, Gonzalez, Podsednik, Terrero, Aardsma, Haeger, Masset, Perez, Reynoso, Vasquez, Sweeney, Ozuna.

Wow. Makes you realize how great a job KW did of unloading crap...

Zisk77
10-08-2008, 12:18 AM
I don't get the love for Robinson Cano. Yes, he's a lifetime .300 hitter, but in a 4-year career he's swiped 12 bases and been caught stealing 14 times. This will help the Sox how?

Just curious, I don't recall reading or hearing anyone at the Sox express a desire to have Cano on the team, or particularly admire his style of play.


Cano and players like him (minus the attitude) are exactly what we need. When we say we need more speed sb aren't necessary what is meant. The game has change and there just isn't many guys out there who steal 30+ bases a year> But Cano and similar players are able to:

- score from second on a single about 95% of the time.
- Score from 1st on a double a large percentage of the time.
- go 1st to third on a single with regularity.
- get infield hits.
- stay out of double plays.
- tag up and advance at higher rates.
- hit .300 and not strikeout...have productive outs.
- bunt.

Stelaing a base is just an added bonus. My guess is Cano could steal quite a bit more than he has if turned loose. However, in NY I imagine he had the red light quite often with all the sluggers in their line-up.

voodoochile
10-08-2008, 12:56 AM
Players already gone from the 2007 40-man (http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/2007_Chicago_White_Sox_season#Current_roster) (counting DL):

Garland, Bukvich, Myers, Phillips, Cintron, Richar, Erstad, Gonzalez, Podsednik, Terrero, Aardsma, Haeger, Masset, Perez, Reynoso, Vasquez, Sweeney, Ozuna.

Wow. Makes you realize how great a job KW did of unloading crap...

Yeah, I guess it's doable. The number of those players who were traded changes the dynamic.

Garland, Richar, Masset, Sweeney, Gonzalez all were traded.

The Sox could turn over 15 people if they do something similar again.

Getz, Fields, Swish, BA, Owens, Richard, Broadway and even Konerko and Dye could be packaged for 1 or 2 players in return and allow for a lot of turnover on the roster.

But no way they can afford to just let all those players walk away and hope for the best...

TheOldRoman
10-08-2008, 01:12 AM
My disappointment is that Walker will probably return. CSN said that Ozzie's one demand for next year is that all his coaches return next year.:thud:
Kenny's biggest failure has been that he didn't see the glaring flaw and replace Walker well before this year. He gave Ozzie complete rights over the coaches, so Ozzie would have to okay it. In my eyes, I consider this a Jauron/Shoop situation. Jauron wasn't that bad of a coach, but his ultimate demise came because he refused to fire Shoop. Nobody could be as bad at their job as Walker and not get fired. If we are truly moving to change the offensive identity of the team this offseason, canning Walker is the most important change.

Hey Walk, remember your sniveling, fighting back tears interviews after Ozzie's tirade, with you talking about "pride" and promising to resign if you couldn't do the job? Did you see the last month and a half of baseball? Please do the right thing.

Lip Man 1
10-08-2008, 01:13 AM
Here you go:

http://www.chicagotribune.com/sports/baseball/whitesox/chi-08-white-sox-ken-williams-choct08,0,1600685.story

Lip

Craig Grebeck
10-08-2008, 01:17 AM
Here you go:

http://www.chicagotribune.com/sports/baseball/whitesox/chi-08-white-sox-ken-williams-choct08,0,1600685.story

Lip
Nor should we. I don't want to get burned on CC's dead arm.

SoxSpeed22
10-08-2008, 01:26 AM
I would think that they would cut some salary since they might have to pay for Thome's option and they're also on the hook for Contreras' salary. That's $23 Million right there. The free agent market is always real high, so it could get interesting with trades.

RockJock07
10-08-2008, 01:56 AM
Nor should we. I don't want to get burned on CC's dead arm.

I don't think CC was ever on the radar, but this piece already told me what I knew, and what most of us knew, that no big time free agents will be coming in. Im ok with this because TCQ and Alexei weren't big moves either and that worked out well.

Mid-level guys are what KW thrives so we'll see, maybe a Ryan Freel or Reggie Willitis.

Bucky F. Dent
10-08-2008, 08:18 AM
Off the roster:
Cabrera
Griffey
Crede
Logan
MacDougall
Broadway - I'd have kept him but bailing on the team during the playoffs speaks volumes about his character, IMO.
Uribe - although I would re-sign if he was willing to serve as a bench player next year.

We've got three major holes to fill in the field, 3rd, 2nd (don't know enough about Getz and his speed/OBP to say it's his job), and center (I will be deeply disappointed if Anderson, Swisher, or Owens is tapped as our starter in center next spring).

We've got a major issue to sort out at first between Konerko & Swisher.

We need to figure out our fifth starter between Richard and Russell

We need to add an arm or two to the bullpen (again). Although w/ Jenks, Thornton, Dotel, and Linebrink its not in nearly as bad a shape as it was at the end of last season. Carrasco could fill one of those two spots. I would prefer that the "loser" in the fifth starter battle be sent back to Charlotte to continue to develop in the rotation.

nccwsfan
10-08-2008, 09:01 AM
Let the speculation start. Who does Kenny attempt to move off the 40 man roster this off season?

Here are my "picks" (and remember I'm not saying ALL of these guys are gone, just that I think Kenny will try to move them, or release them off the roster. Some also are free agent's and won't be returning)

Dewon Day
Boone Logan
Mike MacDougal
Andrew Sisco
Toby Hall
Orlando Cabrera
Joe Crede
Ken Griffey Jr.
Jerry Owens

He may also TRY to move the following players or not re-sign them depending on if he can get a suitable replacement (or upgrade if you will...)

Lance Broadway
Jose Contreras (injury situation - may not return)
Horacio Ramirez
Josh Fields
Juan Uribe
Brian Anderson

----------

One thing is clear, it appears it's going to be a busy off season with speed (according to the mainstream media) the primary focus.

Lip


From your original post:

Dewon Day- Minor Leagues
Boone Logan- Gone
Mike MacDougal- Gone
Andrew Sisco- Minor Leagues
Toby Hall
Orlando Cabrera- Gone
Joe Crede- Gone
Ken Griffey Jr.- Gone
Jerry Owens- Minor Leagues
Lance Broadway- Minor Leagues
Jose Contreras- will be back during the late second half
Horacio Ramirez- Gone
Josh Fields- Traded
Juan Uribe- Probably gone
Brian Anderson

I can see them trying to keep Toby Hall around. For a backup catcher he has decent value. If BA is gone it's only because we received a good value for him. I'd like to see him stay. Same for Uribe, but he's probably gone b/c he won't be a starter on the 09' White Sox.

nccwsfan
10-08-2008, 09:02 AM
I'd personally love to see OC stick around and be our 2 hole hitter.....add Figgens and let's win this thing!

Now you will all think I'm really nutty when I tell you I want to see this rotation:

Buehrle
Danks
Floyd
Javvy ( yes Javvy, can you pick a better # 4 starter )
Clayton Richards

You're not nutty at all, in fact this could very well be the 2009 rotation. I don't see anything wrong with this lineup either.

Hitmen77
10-08-2008, 09:40 AM
Here you go:

http://www.chicagotribune.com/sports/baseball/whitesox/chi-08-white-sox-ken-williams-choct08,0,1600685.story

Lip

That really didn't tell me much. All it said was that the Sox wouldn't go on a "spending spree." It didn't say the Sox aren't going to spend any money on any free agents. In fact Williams said "we'll spend what's needed to try to put a winner on the field."

The only noteworthy comment from KW was that he used the G word to describe Getz. We know how Kenny loves grindyness.

Hitmen77
10-08-2008, 09:42 AM
I would think that they would cut some salary since they might have to pay for Thome's option and they're also on the hook for Contreras' salary. That's $23 Million right there. The free agent market is always real high, so it could get interesting with trades.

If I'm not mistaken, we're only paying for about $8 million of Thome's salary and Philly is eating the rest as agreed to in the Thome-Rowand trade.

asindc
10-08-2008, 10:17 AM
Fair post.

I just don't think there's any chance he's moved. He's not exactly smooth in the outfield, and I'd prefer that our weakest outfielder stays in left field, a position that doesn't typically require strong defense.

Just my opinion. I think I inadvertently came off as a jerk in response to your original post...sorry 'bout that.

It was my original post, but point well taken.:smile:

EMel9281
10-08-2008, 10:23 AM
Starting pitchers
Kris Benson (33)
A.J. Burnett (32) - can opt out after '08 season
Paul Byrd (38)
Roger Clemens (46)
Matt Clement (33)
Bartolo Colon (36)
Ryan Dempster (32)
Shawn Estes (36)
Josh Fogg (32)
Freddy Garcia (33)
Jon Garland (29)
Tom Glavine (43)
Mike Hampton (36)
Mark Hendrickson (35)
Livan Hernandez (34)
Orlando Hernandez (43)
Jason Jennings (30)
Randy Johnson (45)
John Lackey (30) - $9MM club option for '09 with a $0.5MM buyout
Jon Lieber (39)
Braden Looper (34)
Rodrigo Lopez (33) - club option for '09
Derek Lowe (36)
Greg Maddux (43)
Pedro Martinez (37)
Sergio Mitre (28)
Jamie Moyer (46)
Mark Mulder (31) - $11MM club option for '09 with a $1.5MM buyout
Mike Mussina (40)
Carl Pavano (33) - $13MM club option for '09 with a $1.95MM buyout
Brad Penny (31) - $8.75MM club option for '09 with a $2MM buyout
Odalis Perez (32)
Oliver Perez (27)
Andy Pettitte (37)
Sidney Ponson (32)
Mark Prior (27)
Kenny Rogers (44)
Glendon Rusch (34)
C.C. Sabathia (28)
Curt Schilling (42)
Ben Sheets (30)
John Smoltz (42)
Tim Wakefield (42) - perpetual $4MM club option
Kip Wells (32)
Randy Wolf (32)

Minus a couple of exceptions, this list makes me want to :puking:

HITMEN OF 77
10-08-2008, 11:26 AM
What's Griffey Jr's contract situation? I think he's a FA, but if we can sign him cheap, I'd do it. He's a better option than Swisher, Anderson or Owens IMO.

Craig Grebeck
10-08-2008, 11:43 AM
What's Griffey Jr's contract situation? I think he's a FA, but if we can sign him cheap, I'd do it. He's a better option than Swisher, Anderson or Owens IMO.
Better option for what? Nostalgia?

kitekrazy
10-08-2008, 11:57 AM
adios O.C. :mad:
I've seen enough of your crap

I would be curious as to what his career post season stats are like.
He talked the talk but he didn't impress me in the post season.

soxfan43
10-08-2008, 12:00 PM
What's Griffey Jr's contract situation? I think he's a FA, but if we can sign him cheap, I'd do it. He's a better option than Swisher, Anderson or Owens IMO.

Despite his age, he'll still cost several million. And he certainly won't give the team several million more in production than Owens or Anderson would give us. The guy is done.

nccwsfan
10-08-2008, 12:02 PM
I would be curious as to what his career post season stats are like.
He talked the talk but he didn't impress me in the post season.

http://mlb.mlb.com/stats/individual_player_postseason.jsp?playerID=111851&statType=1

DaveFeelsRight
10-08-2008, 12:03 PM
i dont know why some people here are so quick to dump swish

oeo
10-08-2008, 12:07 PM
i dont know why some people here are so quick to dump swish

Stupidity? Some people act like he's Brian Anderson. Swisher does have a track record...

Thome_Fan
10-08-2008, 12:07 PM
This and That:

1. Mohoney - Lowe's agent is Scott Boras. End of discussion.

2. Southside - It appears Kenny Williams wants him. Nuff said? Last week on XM one of the Yankee beat writers were on and said Kenny tried to get him at the deadline and will be going hard after him this off season.

And for the 800th time, Figgins is NOT a free agent, the Angels have the option. HOWEVER sources are saying he has worn out his welcome in L.A. with his teammates and all members of the organization except for Scioscia.

Lip

Is that really the kind of guy we want on the team then? Look at how much we all hated Cabrera by the end of the year. Although I agree Figgins probably brings a lot more to the table offensively that OC has been able to.

Madscout
10-08-2008, 12:10 PM
If Anderson could only shorten that swing, then we have a CF. I'd try to trade him just so that he can have a fresh breath of air. Then see if you can get someone like McLouth or Melky on the cheap. Brett Gardner would be a really nice fit for this team. He has a good arm, great speed, and is an excellent bunter. Also, Fire Walker! He's awful.

I have seen this name too many times on this board not to respond. I live in Pittsburgh. The Pirates are NEVER going to let McLouth go for anything reasonable. He is half their draw, and they don't draw much except when a team that has a good following comes to town. Public opinion is on a string in Pittsburgh, and a weak trade for them would snap that very quick.

Thome_Fan
10-08-2008, 12:11 PM
Minus a couple of exceptions, this list makes me want to :puking:

Go get Dempster, NOW!!

gn2727
10-08-2008, 12:20 PM
I think Javy would make a good 5th starter at this point in his career. He needs to be treated as such until he stops sucking so bad.

I know we prolly have no chance to do it, but C.C. would be a sick pickup to this pitching staff. Could you imagine other teams having to deal with:

Sabathia
Buehrle
Danks
Floyd
Vazquez / Richard

Craig Grebeck
10-08-2008, 12:24 PM
I think Javy would make a good 5th starter at this point in his career. He needs to be treated as such until he stops sucking so bad.

I know we prolly have no chance to do it, but C.C. would be a sick pickup to this pitching staff. Could you imagine other teams having to deal with:

Sabathia
Buehrle
Danks
Floyd
Vazquez / Richard
Considering what the Brewers did to his arm this season, I want no part of him.

kittle42
10-08-2008, 12:41 PM
I have seen this name too many times on this board not to respond. I live in Pittsburgh. The Pirates are NEVER going to let McLouth go for anything reasonable. He is half their draw, and they don't draw much except when a team that has a good following comes to town. Public opinion is on a string in Pittsburgh, and a weak trade for them would snap that very quick.

I've been wanting to say something myself. Well-stated.

Lip Man 1
10-08-2008, 12:51 PM
Hitmen:

Then maybe this one is more to your taste:

http://www.suntimes.com/sports/baseball/whitesox/1208241,CST-SPT-sox08.article

Lip

Tragg
10-08-2008, 12:56 PM
How about some of the coaches?

TDog
10-08-2008, 01:02 PM
What's Griffey Jr's contract situation? I think he's a FA, but if we can sign him cheap, I'd do it. He's a better option than Swisher, Anderson or Owens IMO.

When you're talking about Girffey, Anderson, Swisher and Owens, you are mostly looking at one-dimensional players.

Griffey, a No. 1 overall draft pick out of high school, has lost the speed to that made him a great centerfielder. He also doesn't have the power or the quick bat he once had. He is more vulnerable as a hitter than he has been in the past,but he is probably best suited to be a DH.

Swisher, a first-round draft pick out of college, came to the Sox as a high on-base-percentage hitter without great speed. He isn't a great fielder and lacks speed. He strikes out a lot. Hitters with high on-base percentages who have low batting averages and strike out a lot are vulnerabe to pitchers who throw strikes, which makes him vulnerable at the plate against the Twins.

Brian Anderson, a first-round draft pick out of college, is a very good centerfielder. He has some speed. He has never developed as a hitter.

Jerry Ownens, a second-round draft pick out of college, has speed.

Out of the lot, Anderson seems to the one the Sox should keep, although he may be one who could get the most return in trade. Swisher and Anderson at the end of the season typically came in for defense when the Sox were ahead. Swisher at first, however, was a much smaller upgrade than Anderson going into center.

The Sox will let Griffey walk away, perhaps retire. I don't know if they will move Owens. It would probably be in part of a package if they did. Some don't want Swisher traded because his trade value is so much lower than when the Sox acquired him. I thought at the time acquiring Swisher was a mistake and they were overpaying for him. I don't see Swisher helping the team in center, left or first (with Konerko on the Sox). Swisher could be a player the Sox move to upgrade where they need to upgrade, or he could continue to fill the role of a backup first baseman who can play the outfield.

But some players will be moved this offseason. The Sox aren't going to fill all of their holes through free agency and they aren't going to deal exclusively from their farm system.

Ziggy S
10-08-2008, 03:33 PM
We may have seen Dye's last game in a White Sox uniform, especially if they guys up top are serious about getting some speed and contact. I'd prefer to deal Bonerko, but his value is so low we wouldn't get a slice of pizza from Giordannos for him. I think KW will deal Vazquez as well since Ozzie no likey.

oeo
10-08-2008, 03:43 PM
We may have seen Dye's last game in a White Sox uniform, especially if they guys up top are serious about getting some speed and contact. I'd prefer to deal Bonerko, but his value is so low we wouldn't get a slice of pizza from Giordannos for him. I think KW will deal Vazquez as well since Ozzie no likey.

I wouldn't be so sure that Konerko's value is 'so low' that we wouldn't be able to get anything for him. He did have a pretty good second half after a miserable, injury-plagued first half. The only thing with Konerko is his 10-5 rights, and I don't think he accepts a trade unless he's headed towards the west coast (Arizona and LA as likely destinations).

If we can't move Konerko or Swisher (and dealing Swisher would be stupid because his value is probably the lowest of anyone's), then Dye has to be the guy to go. Realistically, this team could change a lot if we lose two of the big four (Konerko, Thome, Dye, and Swisher), but what we really need is to move at least one.

voodoochile
10-08-2008, 03:57 PM
I wouldn't be so sure that Konerko's value is 'so low' that we wouldn't be able to get anything for him. He did have a pretty good second half after a miserable, injury-plagued first half. The only thing with Konerko is his 10-5 rights, and I don't think he accepts a trade unless he's headed towards the west coast (Arizona and LA as likely destinations).

If we can't move Konerko or Swisher (and dealing Swisher would be stupid because his value is probably the lowest of anyone's), then Dye has to be the guy to go. Realistically, this team could change a lot if we lose two of the big four (Konerko, Thome, Dye, and Swisher), but what we really need is to move at least one.

Exactly, the guy posted an OPS over 1.0 the final two months of the season and playoffs.

It's easy for the fans to judge because their emotions are all wound up over his crappy first 4 months, but he was clearly hurt and if the Sox could convince PK to wave his NTC and decided it was in their interest to trade him, I am sure he would bring back a fine return.

khan
10-08-2008, 05:39 PM
To answer the original post, I'm looking at it this way:

Definites off the 40 man:
D. Day, Macdougal, Paul Phillips, O. Cabrera, J. Fields, J. Crede, and Griffey, Jr.

I simply can't envision the SOX bringing Fields back as a 3rd baseman; Day/Phillips have no future with the club; Macdougal hasn't figured it out, and he's 30. Cabrera/Crede/Griffey don't fit.

POSSIBLY off the 40 man:

1. The losers of the H. Ramirez/A. Sisco/B. Logan 3-man lefty battle royale, with the winner being the 2nd lefty in the 'pen. [Logan may also be sent to Charlotte, instead of being dropped from the 40-man roster.]
2. The losers of the B. Anderson/J. Owens/D. Wise 4th OF battle royale. [The early money's on Wise to stay, but you never know.]
3. Jermaine Dye. [I hate to say this, as I'd like to have him stay here, but he's got the highest value out of our collection of aging DH-types.]
4. Broadway [Ozzie specifically mentioned Richard when speaking about possibly replacing Contreras for next season, but said nothing about Broadway.]

HITMEN OF 77
10-08-2008, 06:33 PM
Despite his age, he'll still cost several million. And he certainly won't give the team several million more in production than Owens or Anderson would give us. The guy is done.

If he's happy and is interested in being on a winning team, which hopefully the Sox are again next year, he may make take a huge pay cut to be a 4th outfielder.?.

Craig Grebeck
10-08-2008, 07:52 PM
...which makes him (Swisher) vulnerable at the plate against the Twins.
Career line against Minny: .275/.380/.543/.924

Vulnerable indeed.

JNS
10-08-2008, 08:41 PM
Career line against Minny: .275/.380/.543/.924

Vulnerable indeed.

That's career - not 2008. He may have just had a bad season, or maybe Billy Beane knew something.

His situation is different than Paulie's. Konerko was hurt and had a crappy season. Swisher was healthy and had a bad eye (lots of called 3rd strikes) and what appeared to be a slow, long swing.

If Konerko wants to leave and the value is right, KW will certainly consider it. Swisher ain't worth much no way no how.

Craig Grebeck
10-08-2008, 09:03 PM
That's career - not 2008. He may have just had a bad season, or maybe Billy Beane knew something.

His situation is different than Paulie's. Konerko was hurt and had a crappy season. Swisher was healthy and had a bad eye (lots of called 3rd strikes) and what appeared to be a slow, long swing.

If Konerko wants to leave and the value is right, KW will certainly consider it. Swisher ain't worth much no way no how.
Minnesota always has guys who are proficient in throwing strikes.

To satisfy your complaint, I'll post his 2008 stats against the Twins: .315/.393/.648/1.042

So what is vulnerable again TDog?

HITMEN OF 77
10-08-2008, 09:17 PM
If Konerko wants to leave and the value is right, KW will certainly consider it. Swisher ain't worth much no way no how.

Keep Konerko, dump Swisher, either let BA play center or trade for someone who's decent, we don't need a star, just someone who has speed and can get on base one way or another and sign Griffey Jr as a 4th Outfielder. Is that a run on sentence? :smile:

TDog
10-08-2008, 09:56 PM
Career line against Minny: .275/.380/.543/.924

Vulnerable indeed.

Twins pitchers this year threw strikes more consistently than they have in the past. It was the single greatest success of their pitching staff. Maybe this year stands out and next year they will walk more hitters, as Twins pitchers have done in the past. The assumption was that a low-average, high on-base-percentage hitter who strikes out a lot (and is going to find himself frequently hitting with two strikes because he takes so many pitches) will not do well in the future against a team that doesn't walk many hitters.

White Sox fans have now seen Swisher's act. Swisher was vulnerable this year against just about any pitcher who threw strikes, although he had a few big hits. As the season went on, pitchers saw that their chances of being hurt by Swisher diminished if they threw him strikes. In four games in June, Swisher got on base 10 times against the Twins in four games while striking out only once. In four games in July, he reached base four times while striking out five times at the Metrodome.

Maybe next year Swisher will change his approach at the plate and stop taking so many pitches. Against good teams with good pitchers, hitters with high on-base percentages and low batting averages who strike out a lot generally won't get on base much. And people who consider on-base percentages without considering batting averages generally will fail in their judgment of baseball talent.

Swisher was 17 for 54 against the Twins this year for a pretty good batting average. He was 14 for 40 through June.

Craig Grebeck
10-08-2008, 10:22 PM
Twins pitchers this year threw strikes more consistently than they have in the past. It was the single greatest success of their pitching staff. Maybe this year stands out and next year they will walk more hitters, as Twins pitchers have done in the past. The assumption was that a low-average, high on-base-percentage hitter who strikes out a lot (and is going to find himself frequently hitting with two strikes because he takes so many pitches) will not do well in the future against a team that doesn't walk many hitters.

White Sox fans have now seen Swisher's act. Swisher was vulnerable this year against just about any pitcher who threw strikes, although he had a few big hits. As the season went on, pitchers saw that their chances of being hurt by Swisher diminished if they threw him strikes. In four games in June, Swisher got on base 10 times against the Twins in four games while striking out only once. In four games in July, he reached base four times while striking out five times at the Metrodome.

Maybe next year Swisher will change his approach at the plate and stop taking so many pitches. Against good teams with good pitchers, hitters with high on-base percentages and low batting averages who strike out a lot generally won't get on base much. And people who consider on-base percentages without considering batting averages generally will fail in their judgment of baseball talent.

Swisher was 17 for 54 against the Twins this year for a pretty good batting average. He was 14 for 40 through June.
What's your point? You made an assumption that was false.

JNS
10-08-2008, 11:40 PM
Minnesota always has guys who are proficient in throwing strikes.

To satisfy your complaint, I'll post his 2008 stats against the Twins: .315/.393/.648/1.042

So what is vulnerable again TDog?

Well, whatever my problems with Swisher, you have proven that he certainly didn't have much trouble with Twins pitching. I may be wrong about this - I don't remember offhand, but I would guess that he sat most of that last three-game set in the dome. By then he had stopped hitting altogether.

Anyhow, I don't think any team can afford to have a starter at any position who is a slow guy who is OK defensively, with a BA of under .220 and a lot of Ks.

I agree - loose Swisher, and keep Paulie. But realistically, if you are some GM somewhere, who you gonna want?

FedEx227
10-08-2008, 11:47 PM
Well, whatever my problems with Swisher, you have proven that he certainly didn't have much trouble with Twins pitching. I may be wrong about this - I don't remember offhand, but I would guess that he sat most of that last three-game set in the dome. By then he had stopped hitting altogether.

Anyhow, I don't think any team can afford to have a starter at any position who is a slow guy who is OK defensively, with a BA of under .220 and a lot of Ks.


:walnuts
"Yeah! Exactly! .240 > .220!"

Craig Grebeck
10-09-2008, 12:45 AM
Well, whatever my problems with Swisher, you have proven that he certainly didn't have much trouble with Twins pitching. I may be wrong about this - I don't remember offhand, but I would guess that he sat most of that last three-game set in the dome. By then he had stopped hitting altogether.

Anyhow, I don't think any team can afford to have a starter at any position who is a slow guy who is OK defensively, with a BA of under .220 and a lot of Ks.

I agree - loose Swisher, and keep Paulie. But realistically, if you are some GM somewhere, who you gonna want?
You act like this year was normal for Swisher. I'd say it was his basement. The severe regression can be explained by his abnormal batting average on balls in play relative to his line drive percentage. Dude was unlucky.

Don't sell low. Fairly obvious principle.

TDog
10-09-2008, 03:55 AM
What's your point? You made an assumption that was false.

I didn't make any assumption. When the Twins figured out how to pitch to Nick Swisher, they handled him fairly easily. Swisher didn't make adjustments to pitchers pounding the strike zone. Once the Twins, for that matter, once the league, threw him strikes early in the count, he stopped regularly walking and getting hitters' counts. Teams scouted him and he failed to adjust. He kept doing what he has always done. Swisher wasn't in the lineup late in the season because everyone know how to get him out.

I think I posted in March or April that I expected Swisher to hit around .240 with 20-something home runs. His on-base percentage is irrelevant. Anyone who watched the Sox this year could tell you that his on-base percentage was irrelevant. And it plumetted anyway as Central Division pitchers saw more of him and figured out how to pitch him.

Craig Grebeck
10-09-2008, 08:26 AM
I didn't make any assumption. When the Twins figured out how to pitch to Nick Swisher, they handled him fairly easily. Swisher didn't make adjustments to pitchers pounding the strike zone. Once the Twins, for that matter, once the league, threw him strikes early in the count, he stopped regularly walking and getting hitters' counts. Teams scouted him and he failed to adjust. He kept doing what he has always done. Swisher wasn't in the lineup late in the season because everyone know how to get him out.

I think I posted in March or April that I expected Swisher to hit around .240 with 20-something home runs. His on-base percentage is irrelevant. Anyone who watched the Sox this year could tell you that his on-base percentage was irrelevant. And it plumetted anyway as Central Division pitchers saw more of him and figured out how to pitch him.
How could the percentage someone reaches base EVER be irrelevant? Nick Swisher is a good ballplayer, regardless of your archaic metrics for measuring talent.

Also -- at no point during the year did they "handle him very easily." Yes, he was 3 for 14 in the final two series against the Twins. You act like there is something to those 14 at bats. In fact, Swisher did most of his damage against the Twins in the middle part of the year, after they had seen him a few times. Just admit you were wrong.

palehozenychicty
10-09-2008, 09:33 AM
I have seen this name too many times on this board not to respond. I live in Pittsburgh. The Pirates are NEVER going to let McLouth go for anything reasonable. He is half their draw, and they don't draw much except when a team that has a good following comes to town. Public opinion is on a string in Pittsburgh, and a weak trade for them would snap that very quick.


I personally don't think they should trade him either, but these are the Pirates. The rumors of him going to the Yankees, etc. have just been very strong to color me suspicious. The jury is still out on their package for Nady to the Yankees, and it was a trade they didn't even need to make.

The benefit of Tampa getting this far in the postseason is good for terrible management like the Pirates and Royals and Reds and Nats to get serious. Simply sign them to long-term, below-market extensions and get their prime years of production. Cleveland did it for years in the '90s, and that's how they stayed so good then. They also sold out Jacobs Field.

Hell, I think the Pirates should've kept Nady and gotten a better package for Bay. All of those young guys could become solid MLB players, but what's the probability of that?

Now that they have Tabata and Alvarez to develop along with McLouth and McCutchen, they could go somewhere if they got any pitching. Vazquez would be an asset for them, as he is durable. We'll see.

Craig Grebeck
10-09-2008, 09:45 AM
I personally don't think they should trade him either, but these are the Pirates. The rumors of him going to the Yankees, etc. have just been very strong to color me suspicious. The jury is still out on their package for Nady to the Yankees, and it was a trade they didn't even need to make.

The benefit of Tampa getting this far in the postseason is good for terrible management like the Pirates and Royals and Reds and Nats to get serious. Simply sign them to long-term, below-market extensions and get their prime years of production. Cleveland did it for years in the '90s, and that's how they stayed so good then. They also sold out Jacobs Field.

Hell, I think the Pirates should've kept Nady and gotten a better package for Bay. All of those young guys could become solid MLB players, but what's the probability of that?

Now that they have Tabata and Alvarez to develop along with McLouth and McCutchen, they could go somewhere if they got any pitching. Vazquez would be an asset for them, as he is durable. We'll see.
That Nady trade was without doubt a trade they had to make. Nady is, at best, a slightly above average corner outfielder who was having the year of his life. Hell yes you trade him at his highest value.

They got good value when they gave up Bay. Laroche is solid and despite his horrific 49 or so games in Pittsburgh, he'll be fine.

Those were moves they had to make.

And McLouth is way, way different. The only similarity between McLouth and Bay/Nady is that they played in Pittsburgh the last few years.

jabrch
10-09-2008, 09:57 AM
I didn't make any assumption. When the Twins figured out how to pitch to Nick Swisher, they handled him fairly easily. Swisher didn't make adjustments to pitchers pounding the strike zone. Once the Twins, for that matter, once the league, threw him strikes early in the count, he stopped regularly walking and getting hitters' counts. Teams scouted him and he failed to adjust. He kept doing what he has always done. Swisher wasn't in the lineup late in the season because everyone know how to get him out.

I think I posted in March or April that I expected Swisher to hit around .240 with 20-something home runs. His on-base percentage is irrelevant. Anyone who watched the Sox this year could tell you that his on-base percentage was irrelevant. And it plumetted anyway as Central Division pitchers saw more of him and figured out how to pitch him.


Dog, what I don't understand is how they suddenly figured him out as a White Sox, but spent years struggling to figure him out in Oakland.

I personally think this is on Nick, and not a credit to the opposition. Nick took more first strikes than any hitter I ever saw. And he dug himself more 0-2, 1-2, etc. counts than I recall in a long time. Nick needs to get back to swinging at strikes and hitting them. Only then will you see more balls.

JNS
10-09-2008, 10:24 AM
You act like this year was normal for Swisher. I'd say it was his basement. The severe regression can be explained by his abnormal batting average on balls in play relative to his line drive percentage. Dude was unlucky.

Don't sell low. Fairly obvious principle.

Wha? Unlucky? He looked at more 3rd strikes than Dave Nicholson! He lost his job. He fared badly in each and every hole Ozzie put him in. If you want to talk about basements, talk Konerko - he has a long and illustrious track record and will surely rebound. Swish never had much of a BA, had a rep as a patient guy at the plate who was versitile and a good clubhouse guy. There is a reason why Wise - a career minor leaguer - started most or all the post-season and elimination games in LF and Griffy in CF. Swish was benched.

...abnormal batting average on balls in play relative to his line drive percentage...?

voodoochile
10-09-2008, 10:34 AM
Wha? Unlucky?

(snip)

...abnormal batting average on balls in play relative to his line drive percentage...?


He hit a lot of line drives that ended up as outs - more than he has historically according to the stats.

Some of these newer stats are still being devloped and aren't widely accepted, but the BABIP (Batting Average on Balls In Play) stuff at least has some potential as a way of explaining slumps and other hitting phenomenon.

Not saying I am on board with it yet, but it's at least a different way of looking at things that makes some sense...

NLaloosh
10-09-2008, 12:37 PM
Let's face it, the Sox screwed up Swisher this year. He's man enough not to complain about it. He's blaming himself and re-dedicating himself for next year.

He had his first bad season at 27. The Sox and their fans have to give him one more chance. There's no point in trading him now anyway with his value down.

Here's to hoping for a new Sox firstbaseman and # 6/7 hitter.

JNS
10-09-2008, 12:58 PM
He hit a lot of line drives that ended up as outs - more than he has historically according to the stats.

Some of these newer stats are still being devloped and aren't widely accepted, but the BABIP (Batting Average on Balls In Play) stuff at least has some potential as a way of explaining slumps and other hitting phenomenon.

Not saying I am on board with it yet, but it's at least a different way of looking at things that makes some sense...

I won't say they don't have validity, but an out is an out. Lucky - unlucky, there is a reason why BA has been the main barometer for about 130 years, imperfect though it may be.

Hitting a lot of liners at guys is a little bit like saying that Thome would have hit .350 if only they didn't put the shift on. If you are going to approach hitting like Swisher does (going for the fences every time), you need to put it over the thing more often - no luck about that. Line drives into the seats don't give fielders a chance to get lucky. Also, it fails to credit opposing defensive sets. Maybe it wasn't luck that all those liners were caught. This is major league baseball - coaches look at film and position players in the outfield. The Thome shift is an extreme example of this, but there are reasons why those liners weren't gappers.

My major beefs with Swish are:

-- Taking the patience thing too far. Again, I don't have numbers, but there sure were a LOT of called third strikes, often with guys in scoring position. He swished us out of a lot of big innings.
-- Seemingly never shortening up. Thome started doing it mid-season and salvaged his year as a result. Swish went for the pump each and every time up, or so it seemed.
-- He doesn't have the track record Konerko has. Paulie had an awful first half in 2003. He recovered somewhat in the second half and went on to have banner seasons in 04, 05, 06, and some of 07. He has recovered before and can again. I see no evidence (granted there hasn't been much time) that Swisher is anything other that what we saw this year.

Of all this stuff my main bitch is that he's either looking at a pitch or he's swishing (pun intended). If a guy is going to hit in the .240 range -what was expected of Swisher when he came here - he ended up under .220, he should probably learn how to bunt, sac, take an extra base, and generally grind it out. People said that Thome could end up with a decent Dave Kingman-like season. IMO he did better than that. Swish had a Kingman-like year but with fewer homers. Bad fit for the Sox right now.

The last thing the Sox need is another station to station guy who doesn't get that many hits, only gives you 20 - 25 dingers, and is slow. Dye, Paulie, Thome, and Crede (if still here) are similar but hit for higher average, hit more homers, and have set positions in the field.

I'm not saying Swish can't be a good ballplayer somewhere and help a team, but I believe given the other slow thumpers the Sox have, he's a bad fit. Speed and the ability to "do the little things" as KW put it are more important in light of the 2008 season, and Swish is sort of clogging things up with his skill-set.

soxtalker
10-09-2008, 01:00 PM
He hit a lot of line drives that ended up as outs - more than he has historically according to the stats.

Some of these newer stats are still being devloped and aren't widely accepted, but the BABIP (Batting Average on Balls In Play) stuff at least has some potential as a way of explaining slumps and other hitting phenomenon.

Not saying I am on board with it yet, but it's at least a different way of looking at things that makes some sense...

Do you know if there is a stat that measures how pitchers may have changed how they were pitching to him? This is a constant battle between pitchers and hitters, and the teams are all getting much better information. So, I could see that opposing pitchers could have changed their approach a bit. Also, I suppose that batting in a Sox line up, which is stacked with powerful guys like Thome and Konerko, could cause pitchers to approach him differently than in an Oakland A's lineup.

TDog
10-09-2008, 01:22 PM
Dog, what I don't understand is how they suddenly figured him out as a White Sox, but spent years struggling to figure him out in Oakland.

I personally think this is on Nick, and not a credit to the opposition. Nick took more first strikes than any hitter I ever saw. And he dug himself more 0-2, 1-2, etc. counts than I recall in a long time. Nick needs to get back to swinging at strikes and hitting them. Only then will you see more balls.


I think it is a combination of Nick Swisher's flawed approach as a hitter and teams pitching him better. I think 2006 was an exceptional year for him, and some of his success may have been due to the dynamics of the A's lineup that included the last strong year from Frank Thomas. The dynamics of this year's White Sox lineup may have hurt Swisher this year. Swisher has regressed as a hitter since 2006, and it would appear he can't do any worse. But if he continues not to swing at hitters' strikes early in the count, he indeed could do worse.

Swisher is at his best as a hitter when he is ahead in the count. This is true for most hitters. He is an abysmal two-strike hitter. Too often, though, he doesn't even swing the bat until he has two strikes on him. Too often, he takes hittable pitches early in the count and lets pitchers' strikes go by for strike three. Many of them are bad calls, but sometimes umpires will expand the strike zone after hitters take pitches they should be swinging at.

Swisher has always walked a lot, demonstrating a good eye at the plate. But the purpose of working the count is to get better pitches to hit. Maybe this year he was frustrated with hitting the ball well and having nothing to show for it, but Swisher at some point started going up to the plate looking to walk instead of getting good pitches to hit. That put both his batting average and on-base percentage into free fall.

If you walk a lot, giving you a high-on-base percentage, but aren't a dangerous hitter, either with a high batting average or high slugging percentage, if you are taking hittable strikes early in the count, pitchers are not going to walk you. You need to be a hitter if you want to continue to get walks. You have to adjust to the fact that you are getting good first- or second-pitch strikes to keep pitchers honest. Swisher never made that adjustment.

Craig Grebeck
10-09-2008, 01:56 PM
I think it is a combination of Nick Swisher's flawed approach as a hitter and teams pitching him better. I think 2006 was an exceptional year for him, and some of his success may have been due to the dynamics of the A's lineup that included the last strong year from Frank Thomas. The dynamics of this year's White Sox lineup may have hurt Swisher this year. Swisher has regressed as a hitter since 2006, and it would appear he can't do any worse. But if he continues not to swing at hitters' strikes early in the count, he indeed could do worse.

Swisher is at his best as a hitter when he is ahead in the count. This is true for most hitters. He is an abysmal two-strike hitter. Too often, though, he doesn't even swing the bat until he has two strikes on him. Too often, he takes hittable pitches early in the count and lets pitchers' strikes go by for strike three. Many of them are bad calls, but sometimes umpires will expand the strike zone after hitters take pitches they should be swinging at.

Swisher has always walked a lot, demonstrating a good eye at the plate. But the purpose of working the count is to get better pitches to hit. Maybe this year he was frustrated with hitting the ball well and having nothing to show for it, but Swisher at some point started going up to the plate looking to walk instead of getting good pitches to hit. That put both his batting average and on-base percentage into free fall.

If you walk a lot, giving you a high-on-base percentage, but aren't a dangerous hitter, either with a high batting average or high slugging percentage, if you are taking hittable strikes early in the count, pitchers are not going to walk you. You need to be a hitter if you want to continue to get walks. You have to adjust to the fact that you are getting good first- or second-pitch strikes to keep pitchers honest. Swisher never made that adjustment.
Disagree. He was great in 2007. He cut his K rate while increasing his BB rate. He hit less HR, but much of that was due to his doubles.

jabrch
10-09-2008, 02:08 PM
Swisher is at his best as a hitter when he is ahead in the count. This is true for most hitters. He is an abysmal two-strike hitter. Too often, though, he doesn't even swing the bat until he has two strikes on him. Too often, he takes hittable pitches early in the count and lets pitchers' strikes go by for strike three.

I completely agree with this.

Many of them are bad calls

I'm not sure this happens to him at any higher rate than other hitters.

but sometimes umpires will expand the strike zone after hitters take pitches they should be swinging at.

But I definitely agree with this. If you are known to not swing at close pitches, Umps will make you swing at close pitches.

But the purpose of working the count is to get better pitches to hit.

Absolutely!

If you walk a lot, giving you a high-on-base percentage, but aren't a dangerous hitter, either with a high batting average or high slugging percentage, if you are taking hittable strikes early in the count, pitchers are not going to walk you. You need to be a hitter if you want to continue to get walks. You have to adjust to the fact that you are getting good first- or second-pitch strikes to keep pitchers honest. Swisher never made that adjustment.

Very well said Dog. I agree. Walkers suck. That's what Swish tried to be this year. Good hitters who walk, are good. That's what Swish used to be. Great hitters who don't walk are good. Great hitters who walk are stars. That's what Frank was.

Jaysox
10-09-2008, 03:14 PM
Let's face it, the Sox screwed up Swisher this year. He's man enough not to complain about it. He's blaming himself and re-dedicating himself for next year.

He had his first bad season at 27. The Sox and their fans have to give him one more chance. There's no point in trading him now anyway with his value down.

Here's to hoping for a new Sox firstbaseman and # 6/7 hitter.

Couldn't agree with you more. I definitely think that being on a new team, having him lead off in the lineup and having him play a bunch of different positions screwed him up mentally. I think he'll rebound and prove all the doubters wrong.

JNS
10-09-2008, 03:28 PM
I definitely think that being on a new team, having him lead off in the lineup and having him play a bunch of different positions screwed him up mentally. I think he'll rebound and prove all the doubters wrong.

I hope you are right, because right now he ain't worth a wad of ABC gum. Zero trade value, even with his light contract, so I suspect he'll be around.

I still have my doubts.

TDog
10-09-2008, 03:59 PM
...

Very well said Dog. I agree. Walkers suck. That's what Swish tried to be this year. Good hitters who walk, are good. That's what Swish used to be. Great hitters who don't walk are good. Great hitters who walk are stars. That's what Frank was.

Swisher had a tendency to put walks before hits in his last season in Oakland, and it upset a lot of A's fans.

I have said all along that I like Nick Swisher. I think he's a great guy. But he needs to change his approach to hitting.

jabrch
10-09-2008, 04:13 PM
Swisher had a tendency to put walks before hits in his last season in Oakland, and it upset a lot of A's fans.

As fans (and management) created that monster. The mock-statheads who don't understand statistics or baseball that follow the Oakland Beanes fostered an environment for years that values "patience" which they measure in walks greater than items that really result in wins.

It's kinda funny. I'm glad to see that now that they have no steroids, that they are starting to have to eat their own dogfood.

NLaloosh
10-09-2008, 04:18 PM
I like Swisher's patience but he is a bad 2-strike hitter. He just needs to be a little more aggressive looking for his pitch.

The guy that COULD end up with a much higher OBP if he could learn some patience is Alexei Ramirez. The guy is one of the best 2-strike hitters that I've ever seen.

Bob G
10-09-2008, 04:33 PM
The question is where will Swish play? His best position is 1B but PK will most likely be back. He's not that great in CF and unless JD is traded right field isn't open either.

btrain929
10-09-2008, 05:17 PM
The question is where will Swish play? His best position is 1B but PK will most likely be back. He's not that great in CF and unless JD is traded right field isn't open either.

On my own scorecard, I'm penciling in Quentin and Swisher into the corner OF spots, with Dye being traded. The only way Dye is NOT traded is if Konerko is, which is unlikely.

MHOUSE
10-09-2008, 09:33 PM
I hated Vazquez more than anyone at the end of the season, but he's not going anywhere for pure business reasons. He's going to pitch 200 innings with 200 Ks and a .500 record. If he can keep his mouth shut we know what we're getting.

Replacing Contreras is priority. I wouldn't mind seeing Garland back in a Sox uni. He had a down year with his peripheral #s and got 14 wins on a 100-win team. He might be a little expensive being only 29, but I'd pay him the same or a little more than Javy to be our #4 guy behind Mark, Floyd, and Danks. That said, stay away from Derek Lowe. He's going to get 4 years from someone and even for 3 years he'd be 40 and not worth the money. He put up great numbers this year, but in the NL West and a pitcher's park.

Sadly I think Jermaine Dye is the one tradeable commodity that we have. He's not getting any younger and had a great bounceback season in 2008. I think it might be time to sell high. Plus, if we do grab a new CF, where is Swisher going to play? 1B maybe, but only if we can dump Konerko. I think Dye could net us a starter at either CF, 2B, 3B, or a #4 starter and maybe a decent prospect or two. Overall, this team needs to get younger. I think the true future lies in getting Thome, Konerko, AJ, Crede, Javy off the books these next two years.

kitekrazy
10-09-2008, 11:13 PM
Replacing Contreras is priority. I wouldn't mind seeing Garland back in a Sox uni. He had a down year with his peripheral #s and got 14 wins on a 100-win team. He might be a little expensive being only 29, but I'd pay him the same or a little more than Javy to be our #4 guy behind Mark, Floyd, and Danks.

Very interesting. Garland is as mediocre as Javy but he'll probably cost more because he had back to back 18 win seasons.

Craig Grebeck
10-09-2008, 11:25 PM
Very interesting. Garland is as mediocre as Javy but he'll probably cost more because he had back to back 18 win seasons.
He's way, way more mediocre than heavy. Little to no upside whatsoever.

Brian26
10-09-2008, 11:27 PM
On my own scorecard, I'm penciling in Quentin and Swisher into the corner OF spots, with Dye being traded. The only way Dye is NOT traded is if Konerko is, which is unlikely.

That's what I have too. Sell high on Dye. His value right now is as high as it's going to ever be (not as high as it was after '06, but he's ready for a decline). Quentin to RF, Swisher LF, PK at first for two more years.

thedudeabides
10-10-2008, 12:00 AM
That's what I have too. Sell high on Dye. His value right now is as high as it's going to ever be (not as high as it was after '06, but he's ready for a decline). Quentin to RF, Swisher LF, PK at first for two more years.

I'm shocked at how many people think Dye is going to be moved. He is one of the better values in the AL. I agree, he probably shouldn't be in right anymore, but that's the only knock on the guy. Kenny is a big fan of Dye, and it was one of, if not his best signing. He's not getting moved unless its an impressive package.

Also, what is his no trade clause? It may be limited, but I'm pretty sure he had one.

I really think there is no way Dye is going anywhere. I get that he could bring back better value than Thome or Konerko, but I just don't see it happening.

I really don't want him to be moved. He's far from a problem on this team.

munchman33
10-10-2008, 01:23 AM
I'm shocked at how many people think Dye is going to be moved. He is one of the better values in the AL. I agree, he probably shouldn't be in right anymore, but that's the only knock on the guy. Kenny is a big fan of Dye, and it was one of, if not his best signing. He's not getting moved unless its an impressive package.


You answered your own question. On a team of unmovable immovable objects, Dye has lots of value, and is probably the ONLY veteran with substantial trade value, outside of Buehrle who isn't leaving. Add to that the dregs we have in the minors and the fact that our payroll is already amongst the highest in the league, it stands to reason that the only way we improve is by trading MLB talent. So, if we don't trade Dye, we're very likely staring at the same team with the same problems next year, give or take a few minor acquisitions.

WhiteSox5187
10-10-2008, 01:38 AM
He's way, way more mediocre than heavy. Little to no upside whatsoever.
Yea, you do know that the only area Javy has any sort of clear dominance over Garland is in strikeouts, right? You know that since Javy joined the AL Garland has had a better ERA every year (with the exception of '07). I don't know, I think they're both pretty mediocre...Javy at times can be lights out, but as soon as there is any hint of pressure he fades, Garland is what he is, but at least he doesn't cave under pressure. If we expect to contend next year (which i think we are all expecting) we should expect the same disappearing act Javy put on for us this year.

munchman33
10-10-2008, 01:38 AM
Let's face it, the Sox screwed up Swisher this year. He's man enough not to complain about it. He's blaming himself and re-dedicating himself for next year.

He had his first bad season at 27. The Sox and their fans have to give him one more chance. There's no point in trading him now anyway with his value down.

Here's to hoping for a new Sox firstbaseman and # 6/7 hitter.

That's great and all that you want to bank our entire season on a guy who hit below .220 as the number 6 hitter and 1B. But some of us prefer proven production out of such an important role.

Swisher should be on the bench. If this year was truly a fluke, great. He can make Ozzie's job out of spring training difficult. But if you simply hand him anything but a bench role instead of picking up good players for those positions, you're doing the White Sox organization harm. Because, while we'd all like to think it was a fluke, flukes don't usually last 500 at bats.

WhiteSox5187
10-10-2008, 01:49 AM
You answered your own question. On a team of unmovable immovable objects, Dye has lots of value, and is probably the ONLY veteran with substantial trade value, outside of Buehrle who isn't leaving. Add to that the dregs we have in the minors and the fact that our payroll is already amongst the highest in the league, it stands to reason that the only way we improve is by trading MLB talent. So, if we don't trade Dye, we're very likely staring at the same team with the same problems next year, give or take a few minor acquisitions.
I think that if you solve the problem of team speed and execution (and getting on base) with the 1-2 hole you can afford to keep the core of Thome, Dye, and Konerko. Plus you'd probably have Quentin in there batting three who isn't exactly a base clogger. Alexei at seven can drive in RBIs and steal bases and is fast. If the line up were to look something (though not necessarily exactly) like this:

1. Figgins 3b - Speed and OBP
2. Hudson 2b - Speed, can move guys over and OBP
3. Quentin LF - Power, can steal 10 bases and move from 1st to 3rd
4. Dye RF - HRs and RBIs
5. Thome DH - HRs and RBIs
6. Konerko 1b - HRs and RBIs
7. Alexei SS - RBIs, speed
8. AJ C - a bit of power, can move guys over, lay down a bunt
9. Swisher CF - high OBP, can move guys over and move from 1st - 3rd

I think a line up like that would work out, it would certainly be faster than this year's line up. i'm not so sure how you would get those guys, but i think that's a fairly well balanced line up.

thedudeabides
10-10-2008, 01:52 AM
You answered your own question. On a team of unmovable immovable objects, Dye has lots of value, and is probably the ONLY veteran with substantial trade value, outside of Buehrle who isn't leaving. Add to that the dregs we have in the minors and the fact that our payroll is already amongst the highest in the league, it stands to reason that the only way we improve is by trading MLB talent. So, if we don't trade Dye, we're very likely staring at the same team with the same problems next year, give or take a few minor acquisitions.

Your missing my point. Kenny and the organization loves JD. I'm not saying he doesn't have value, I'm saying I don't think he'll be traded. People on here like to talk about what they want, but fail to look at how this organization works. I don't see him being moved. Nor, do I think he should be. He is a big producer and has been very consistant, if not an outstanding producer, with the exception of the first half of '07. He is not a problem on this team and I don't think they'll look to move him, unless they get a great offer.

munchman33
10-10-2008, 01:53 AM
I think that if you solve the problem of team speed and execution (and getting on base) with the 1-2 hole you can afford to keep the core of Thome, Dye, and Konerko. Plus you'd probably have Quentin in there batting three who isn't exactly a base clogger. Alexei at seven can drive in RBIs and steal bases and is fast. If the line up were to look something (though not necessarily exactly) like this:

1. Figgins 3b - Speed and OBP
2. Hudson 2b - Speed, can move guys over and OBP
3. Quentin LF - Power, can steal 10 bases and move from 1st to 3rd
4. Dye RF - HRs and RBIs
5. Thome DH - HRs and RBIs
6. Konerko 1b - HRs and RBIs
7. Alexei SS - RBIs, speed
8. AJ C - a bit of power, can move guys over, lay down a bunt
9. Swisher CF - high OBP, can move guys over and move from 1st - 3rd

I think a line up like that would work out, it would certainly be faster than this year's line up. i'm not so sure how you would get those guys, but i think that's a fairly well balanced line up.

That's great...but there's two problems.

1. How did we pick up Figgins? Because what we have in the minors isn't going to cut it. We don't have squat, and the Angels would require a major league piece back. The only way we pick up Figgins is for Paulie, and that ain't worth it.

2. Where are we dumping $10 million+ in salary? Hudson is easily going to get that over five. Don't say Crede, his salary is more than taken up by player raises. And we're still on the hook for ALL of Contreras' salary, even though he probably won't pitch at all.

munchman33
10-10-2008, 01:54 AM
Your missing my point. Kenny and the organization loves JD. I'm not saying he doesn't have value, I'm saying I don't think he'll be traded. People on here like to talk about what they want, but fail to look at how this organization works. I don't see him being moved. Nor, do I think he should be. He is a big producer and has been very consistant, if not an outstanding producer, with the exception of the first half of '07. He is not a problem on this team and I don't think they'll look to move him, unless they get a great offer.

Ozzie loved Freddy too. Didn't spare him.

This is a business. And Kenny is a business man first.

thedudeabides
10-10-2008, 01:57 AM
Ozzie loved Freddy too. Didn't spare him.

This is a business. And Kenny is a business man first.

Freddie was done. They knew that. JD is not.

WhiteSox5187
10-10-2008, 01:58 AM
That's great...but there's two problems.

1. How did we pick up Figgins? Because what we have in the minors isn't going to cut it. We don't have squat, and the Angels would require a major league piece back. The only way we pick up Figgins is for Paulie, and that ain't worth it.

2. Where are we dumping $10 million+ in salary? Hudson is easily going to get that over five. Don't say Crede, his salary is more than taken up by player raises. And we're still on the hook for ALL of Contreras' salary, even though he probably won't pitch at all.
Well...that's Kenny's problem! :redneck

munchman33
10-10-2008, 02:05 AM
Freddie was done. They knew that. JD is not.

Okay, but Kenny also knows we're not going anywhere without improving. And trading JD is pretty much THE ONLY way we're improving. Short of an additional $50 million in payroll. There are too many holes and not enough minor league talent to either fill them or trade to fill them.

munchman33
10-10-2008, 02:06 AM
Well...that's Kenny's problem! :redneck

Haha...yes it is. It'll be interesting to see what he does. Because he absolutely has to do something.

WhiteSox5187
10-10-2008, 02:13 AM
Haha...yes it is. It'll be interesting to see what he does. Because he absolutely has to do something.
If what Lip is saying is true, the Angels might be looking to get rid of Figgins as apparently nobody likes him, but again, I don't know if they'd be willing to take guys like Broadway and Fields for him; probably not. Though Fields might yet become a big league slugger and the Angels could use that. With Hudson, i don't know what kind of deal he wants, but the question is whether the Sox are willing to go out and get him or do this whole "I don't like the market" thing that they are prone to do.

munchman33
10-10-2008, 02:18 AM
If what Lip is saying is true, the Angels might be looking to get rid of Figgins as apparently nobody likes him, but again, I don't know if they'd be willing to take guys like Broadway and Fields for him; probably not. Though Fields might yet become a big league slugger and the Angels could use that. With Hudson, i don't know what kind of deal he wants, but the question is whether the Sox are willing to go out and get him or do this whole "I don't like the market" thing that they are prone to do.

I'd bet against making any free agent signings more than $5 million a year.

Regardless of their opinion of Figgins, they won't let him go without a major league piece. They're weakening their team by trading him.

Bucky F. Dent
10-10-2008, 04:23 AM
Figgins is NOT a free agent, the Angels have the option. HOWEVER sources are saying he has worn out his welcome in L.A. with his teammates and all members of the organization except for Scioscia.

Lip


We are about to cast off the Angels 2007 dark cloud, Cabrera. Why would we want to pick up their 2008 version?

Craig Grebeck
10-10-2008, 08:55 AM
People do realize Figgins isn't THAT good, right? Our minor league futility shouldn't stop us from trading for him. Really. He's nothing special.

NLaloosh
10-10-2008, 11:49 AM
I'd love Figgins on the team as a supersub that starts about 80% of the time primarily in CF splitting time with Anderson and filling in at 3b, SS, 2b and DH.

Lip Man 1
10-10-2008, 11:55 AM
Bucky:

Because Figgins gives the White Sox exactly what they are looking for. They might feel under those circumstances the risk is worth it and that Ozzie can keep him in line.

Just a guess.

Lip

champagne030
10-10-2008, 12:11 PM
And we're still on the hook for ALL of Contreras' salary, even though he probably won't pitch at all.

Has it been determined we didn't take insurance out on him?

Sargeant79
10-10-2008, 12:23 PM
Has it been determined we didn't take insurance out on him?

Corect me if I'm wrong, but I believe the only way that insurance pays up is if Contreras doesn't throw a pitch all season. By all accounts, he will likely be back late in the year, thereby negating any insurance coverage.

champagne030
10-10-2008, 12:31 PM
Corect me if I'm wrong, but I believe the only way that insurance pays up is if Contreras doesn't throw a pitch all season. By all accounts, he will likely be back late in the year, thereby negating any insurance coverage.

You are correct. I raised the question because Munch stated he would probably be out all season and we would be on the hook for his whole salary.

I could very easily see him not throwing one pitch next year.

Lukin13
10-10-2008, 02:11 PM
Dog, what I don't understand is how they suddenly figured him out as a White Sox, but spent years struggling to figure him out in Oakland.

I personally think this is on Nick, and not a credit to the opposition. Nick took more first strikes than any hitter I ever saw. And he dug himself more 0-2, 1-2, etc. counts than I recall in a long time. Nick needs to get back to swinging at strikes and hitting them. Only then will you see more balls.

Swisher was the man in Oakland.

Opposing pitchers did not want to make a mistake when facing Nick.

On the White Sox, Swisher even at his best, is just one of anywhere from three to six, very dangerous hitters.

Pitchers are not going to pitch around him in Chicago, pitchers are not even going to nibble at the corners against Swisher in this lineup. Nick must become a tad more aggresive earlier in counts. It seemed every time he was at the plate the count was 3-2, and he would just be guessing ball or strike before the pitcher was even in the windup. Nick doesn't have a good "protect" swing, he only has his normal big all or nothing hack.

Swisher's approach was something badly needed on the southside. Patience at the plate leads to walks, opportunities for big swings while ahead in counts, and the unmeasurable and invaluable effect it has on the opposing team's pitch count.

Even during this past tomultous season, Nick's OBP was higher than both Alexei and AJ, and equal to OC's.

Now I am not saying that Swish doesn't need to change up a bit, obviously things did not go very well for him in '08.

I just hope that Ozzie puts him between 5 and 8 in the lineup and leaves him be. Swisher will need to adjust and become more aggressive but I have faith that if left alone in the lineup spot for 162 he could rebound and go for 30 homers, 85 rbi and a .360 OBP fairly easily.

JNS
10-10-2008, 03:23 PM
Swisher was the man in Oakland.

Opposing pitchers did not want to make a mistake when facing Nick.

On the White Sox, Swisher even at his best, is just one of anywhere from three to six, very dangerous hitters.

Pitchers are not going to pitch around him in Chicago, pitchers are not even going to nibble at the corners against Swisher in this lineup. Nick must become a tad more aggresive earlier in counts. It seemed every time he was at the plate the count was 3-2, and he would just be guessing ball or strike before the pitcher was even in the windup. Nick doesn't have a good "protect" swing, he only has his normal big all or nothing hack.

Swisher's approach was something badly needed on the southside. Patience at the plate leads to walks, opportunities for big swings while ahead in counts, and the unmeasurable and invaluable effect it has on the opposing team's pitch count.

Even during this past tomultous season, Nick's OBP was higher than both Alexei and AJ, and equal to OC's.

Now I am not saying that Swish doesn't need to change up a bit, obviously things did not go very well for him in '08.

I just hope that Ozzie puts him between 5 and 8 in the lineup and leaves him be. Swisher will need to adjust and become more aggressive but I have faith that if left alone in the lineup spot for 162 he could rebound and go for 30 homers, 85 rbi and a .360 OBP fairly easily.

The problem is - and it isn't only Swisher's problem - is that good hitting is situational. OBP is fine if it leads to run production, which it obviously didn't in 2008. Again, this isn't just Nick's issue. Konerko looked at a hellovalot of called third strikes too. But Paulie, like Thome finally shortened up a bit and started getting base hits. Swish continued to use that "all or nothing hack" and it really hurt the Sox.

Can any of the numbers guys here figure out how many Ks Swisher and Konerko had with guys in scoring position? I'm sure that Thome and Dye's numbers are similar, but they had decent RBI numbers and BA's.

Stoky44
10-10-2008, 05:12 PM
Being lazy and have not read through all the previous threads.

However, I bet that we trade Dye this off season. We need to get rid of some of the slow sluggers on the team. JD would be the easiest to move based off his contract and his good numbers. This not to say I want him to be traded.

I think Kenny will have a offseason similar to 04-05. Trading away C Lee to change the look of the team.

JNS
10-10-2008, 05:28 PM
Being lazy and have not read through all the previous threads.

However, I bet that we trade Dye this off season. We need to get rid of some of the slow sluggers on the team. JD would be the easiest to move based off his contract and his good numbers. This not to say I want him to be traded.

I think Kenny will have a offseason similar to 04-05. Trading away C Lee to change the look of the team.

Hell - Dye is the guy to KEEP! TCQ and Dye were the only trustworthy offensive players through the whole season. He's got a few good years left, is an outstanding defensive player, a great clubhouse guy. Totally solid. Yeah he has value, but what is KW going to get for the guy? Better to put some sort of package deal together or move Paulie to the Angels or D-backs. I understand that Konerko has diminished value at the moemnt, but an OF of TCQ, Swisher, and somebody or another in RF is unacceptable, especially due to the likelyhood that there will be a pretty young and inexperienced inield.

Ozzie hated C. Lee and Lee had a much higher value than Dye do ue his age and the fact that he's one of the top five or ten hitters in the game right now. But I'll take Dye - less noise, more production. But if you trade Dye, you might as well back up the truck.

munchman33
10-10-2008, 05:34 PM
Corect me if I'm wrong, but I believe the only way that insurance pays up is if Contreras doesn't throw a pitch all season. By all accounts, he will likely be back late in the year, thereby negating any insurance coverage.

I was under the impression that Jose's last season was entirely not covered, because the insurance for that season would cost too much. Something I was told from someone I trust. TIFWIW.

TDog
10-10-2008, 07:24 PM
The problem is - and it isn't only Swisher's problem - is that good hitting is situational. OBP is fine if it leads to run production, which it obviously didn't in 2008. Again, this isn't just Nick's issue. Konerko looked at a hellovalot of called third strikes too. But Paulie, like Thome finally shortened up a bit and started getting base hits. Swish continued to use that "all or nothing hack" and it really hurt the Sox.

Can any of the numbers guys here figure out how many Ks Swisher and Konerko had with guys in scoring position? I'm sure that Thome and Dye's numbers are similar, but they had decent RBI numbers and BA's.

This is an insightful post. I think people overrate the importance of statistics, but some can be telling. On-base percentage with runners in scoring position really doesn't mean much. Swisher's was .371. Konerko's was .338. The fact that Swisher's OBP with two outs and runners in scoring position was .352 while his batting average was only .186 reflects that he wasn't swinging when the Sox needed him to drive in runs.

Actually, there was little difference between Swisher and Konerko with runners in scoring postion. Konerko hit .232 -- 26 hits in 112 at bats. Swiher hit .225 -- 23 hits in 102 at bats. Swisher had 46 RBIs to Konerko's 38. Konerko struck out 22 times and Swisher struck out 29 times.

The big difference, as you noted, was that Konerko adjusted and Swisher did not.

jabrch
10-10-2008, 09:39 PM
We need to get rid of some of the slow sluggers on the team.

Why?

Guys like Dye are not the problem.

JNS
10-10-2008, 09:55 PM
This is an insightful post. I think people overrate the importance of statistics, but some can be telling. On-base percentage with runners in scoring position really doesn't mean much. Swisher's was .371. Konerko's was .338. The fact that Swisher's OBP with two outs and runners in scoring position was .352 while his batting average was only .186 reflects that he wasn't swinging when the Sox needed him to drive in runs.

Actually, there was little difference between Swisher and Konerko with runners in scoring postion. Konerko hit .232 -- 26 hits in 112 at bats. Swiher hit .225 -- 23 hits in 102 at bats. Swisher had 46 RBIs to Konerko's 38. Konerko struck out 22 times and Swisher struck out 29 times.

The big difference, as you noted, was that Konerko adjusted and Swisher did not.

Insightful it may have been, but your numbers pretty much destroy my argument - that Paulie was more productive than Swisher. There are always variables, for instance by the time Paulie got a little more productive, Swisher was pretty much riding the pines. Or maybe Swisher did it later in the season - as his BA was tanking - when it seemed to "count" more. Of course all these guys had up and down moments over the course of the season. The Sox did finish first even though for most of the season is sure didn't feel that way!

Which brings up what is perhaps (at least to me, but I'm not the only one) the most important aspect of our evaluations of players; how we feel about them. Numbers (which only lie some of the time) notwithstanding, it just FELT like Swisher did worse with guys on base than Konerko. Obviously that is not the case - you proved it. There may be other variables - Swisher failed to move guys over in more crucial situations or something, but my guess is that a lot of bias is involved when I (and many others) form my opinions.

For most of you this is probably a "DOH! Tell me something I don't know" statement, but all of us are discussing what we think it will take to make the Sox better - in this case who should not be on the roster - and all of would probably like to think that we are approaching it in an objective way. It's always educational when you posit something that you think you have worked out emperically - through observation and objective judgement, and it turns out to not be that way at all.

When I was 10 I LOVED Jim Landis. Best CF ever. By that time his hitting was somewhere around the Mendoza line so Lopez started platooning him with Mike Hershburger. It took me a year to stop being mad at Lopez. But Lopez was right. The difference is, I'm not 10 any more!